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Number19
01-11-2014, 01:38 PM
One question going around the board is: do we draft a QB with our top pick or do we trade down, picking up a QB lower in the draft, in rounds two or three? I offer the suggestion that we wait until 2015 to pick up our QB of the future. With this as a possibility, here is one "Ideal Scenario".


1) Hire Mike Munchak as OL coach. From what I've read, Munchak has a reputation of coaching up his players to perform beyond expectations and abilities. Taking this into account; and keeping Myers, Brooks, Brown, Quessenberry and Williams as a core, we can go into the draft with an eye toward drafting one player with a high pick.

2) For BoB to spend many sleepless nights analyzing Keenum and Yates and finding enough that he thinks, with a full off season, he can work with what the team already has. In making this decision, what must be evaluated is whether a QB drafted in the mid-rounds is much of an improvement over these two. If he doesn't much like what he sees, that means, of course, we must address the position higher in the draft.

3) For a trade with Cleveland to materialize and we end up with another first this year and a first next year.

4) For two of the three premium QB's, and Clowney, to be taken in the first three picks; and for a team at the bottom of the top 10 to give up a second for pick #4.

5) We end up with two #1's and two high #2's this year and an extra #1 next year.

6) With these four picks, we pick up our OL'man and three defensive players.

7) After training camp, if not earlier, we pick up a veteran QB, no more than a two year contract. Our expectations for the season is to win 6-8 games with either Keenum or Yates at QB ( or the veteran ), which should be possible with our weak schedule. Using this draft to upgrade the overall talent on defense and offense, BoB now has a full year to evaluate Case and TJ within his offense and, if then necessary, using our two, first round, picks in 2015 to draft our QB.

In my mind, the key to this scenario is whether Case, or TJ, bring as much to the table as any possibility in the mid-rounds of this year's draft. TJ is your larger, pocket passer and Case is your spread offense smaller, running QB. Both are young QB's without much playing time; and the playing time they do have was under difficult mid-season changes. So the decision facing BoB is first, do we take a QB with 1-1; and if we decide not to, how to then evaluate Case and TJ against the other possibilities. The only way to make this decision is film room time - lots of film room time.

Texanmike02
01-11-2014, 02:06 PM
Neither QB is capable of starting and winning more than they lose. At some point in the future they may be but not now and neither of them have a high ceiling. Coming into last season case was an unknown. Now he is a known. If we are rebuilding and looking for a warm body for a year fine but this team has playoff aspirations. If any QB on our roster is our starter next year it is a disaster.

Mike

infantrycak
01-11-2014, 02:09 PM
Not directed at you, but as a springboard:

Can we please eliminate all the Bob stuff? It's confusing having it all over the MB about both the coach and owner with umpteen different spellings to boot.

To illustrate - BoB FYI was steelb's slam at McNair for being cheap.

Playoffs
01-11-2014, 02:13 PM
5) We end up with two #1's and two high #2's this year and an extra #1 next year.

Yeah, that would approach what I'd pretty much call ideal... :ahhaha:

Thorn
01-11-2014, 02:18 PM
My ideal scenario is at hand. Next football season I'll be retired and watching at my leisure. No more b!tching about late night games (like we'll have any) because they won't matter.

152 days and counting beyoutches. :lol:

kingtexan
01-11-2014, 02:46 PM
Ideal scenario ... this was all just a dream and Matt never came back from the Lis Franc ...

revan
01-11-2014, 03:00 PM
Ideal scenario- we will never see anything Denver related in Houston ever again!!! Can I get a high five?!

Allstar
01-11-2014, 03:12 PM
We draft Teddy, he becomes an elite QB a la Rodgers and thus become contenders for over a decade.

Marshall
01-11-2014, 03:18 PM
Neither QB is capable of starting and winning more than they lose. At some point in the future they may be but not now and neither of them have a high ceiling. Coming into last season case was an unknown. Now he is a known. If we are rebuilding and looking for a warm body for a year fine but this team has playoff aspirations. If any QB on our roster is our starter next year it is a disaster.

Mike

Yep. The young guns should be able to win without help, right? They can pass the ball, catch the ball, and run away from the sieve which was our oline. I gotcha. No help required.

Marshall
01-11-2014, 03:22 PM
Not directed at you, but as a springboard:

Can we please eliminate all the Bob stuff? It's confusing having it all over the MB about both the coach and owner with umpteen different spellings to boot.

To illustrate - BoB FYI was steelb's slam at McNair for being cheap.

But BO would be confusing with an OBAMANATION with the same initials.

BM isn't really a good thing to call our owner unless he starts wearing Jersey number 2.

I'll go along with BOB for the coach and Bob for the owner. Fair enough?

revan
01-11-2014, 03:23 PM
But BO would be confusing with an OBAMANATION with the same initials.

BM isn't really a good thing to call our owner unless he starts wearing Jersey number 2.

I'll go along with BOB for the coach and Bob for the owner. Fair enough?

Marshall!!!! You made the switch to Texans Talk too?!.

Marshall
01-11-2014, 03:26 PM
Marshall!!!! You made the switch to Texans Talk too?!.
I wasn't given a choice after the Mods went on a hissy fit.

Number19
01-11-2014, 03:29 PM
...this team has playoff aspirations...
MikeIMO, you are wrong. Next year's team isn't even assembled yet, so it is flat out impossible for "it" to have any kind of expectations. Now, if you mean "you" have playoff aspirations for the team next season, IMO, you are setting yourself up for a huge disappointment. Of course, you may be speaking only in hypotheticals, in which case all 32 teams have playoff aspirations. But realistically, significant improvement is what should be expected, or as I previously stated, 6 to 8 wins. We may do better, but, as fans, it should not be realistically expected. And I also think that O'Brian, and his future staff, will be much more qualified to determine what he can accomplish with T.J. and Case.

If we use the 1-1 on a QB, I have no doubts that this player will perform at a higher level than either Keenum or Yates. But I wouldn't bet the farm that this would hold true for a player selected in the mid-rounds.
Yeah, that would approach what I'd pretty much call ideal... :ahhaha:Although realistically the chance of the two trade down is unlikely to happen, it is not at all uncommon. If we can get that first trade with Cleveland, I'd definitely be looking for that second trade to move a few spots lower in exchange for another two. If we trade the 1-1, to get value, we absolutely will get at a minimum a one and a two. A one next year, in trade value, is counted as a two this year, so an extra one this year and a one next year is value for value. Trading from #4 to #9 is worth a two; so that is how I arrived at my picks. Really, if the cards fell right, not that hard to see happening.

The only real question mark is how O'Brian evaluates Keenum and Yates. My personal opinion is that Keenum has the higher chance of sticking with the team. But Kubiak saw something to draft TJ in the 5th, so maybe a new coach and a new system would give TJ a new chance.

revan
01-11-2014, 03:32 PM
I wasn't given a choice after the Mods went on a hissy fit.

I got an infraction for talking smack about the Colts. I guess we should all love other teams especially our rivals.

Playoffs
01-11-2014, 03:39 PM
Can we please eliminate all the Bob stuff? It's confusing having it all over the MB about both the coach and owner with umpteen different spellings to boot.
Agree.

O'Brien's nickname has been OB (O'Bie) or Billy. OB is shortest/easiest for me.

ArlingtonTexan
01-11-2014, 03:43 PM
Agree.

O'Brien's nickname has been OB (O'Bie) or Billy. OB is shortest/easiest for me.

I wished I lived in a world where seven keystrokes were not considered needing a shorter version.

Number19
01-11-2014, 04:02 PM
We draft Teddy, he becomes an elite QB a la Rodgers and thus become contenders for over a decade.Fair answer and in agreement with many. But what are your expectations, under this scenario, for the defense. You do agree that to be contenders we do need a fairly good defense? We have one, maybe two holes to address on offense, which you've addressed. But we have as many as 6 or 8 holes to address on defense. What's your answer to this?

PHILLYTEXANFAN
01-11-2014, 04:08 PM
I got an infraction for talking smack about the Colts. I guess we should all love other teams especially our rivals.

Land of misfit Posters here. I left there after they banned Texian for expressing his opinion, and maybe some other things. Havent gone back since, not even to " check things out"

badboy
01-11-2014, 04:10 PM
IMO, you are wrong. Next year's team isn't even assembled yet, so it is flat out impossible for "it" to have any kind of expectations. Now, if you mean "you" have playoff aspirations for the team next season, IMO, you are setting yourself up for a huge disappointment. Of course, you may be speaking only in hypotheticals, in which case all 32 teams have playoff aspirations. But realistically, significant improvement is what should be expected, or as I previously stated, 6 to 8 wins. We may do better, but, as fans, it should not be realistically expected. And I also think that O'Brian, and his future staff, will be much more qualified to determine what he can accomplish with T.J. and Case.

If we use the 1-1 on a QB, I have no doubts that this player will perform at a higher level than either Keenum or Yates. But I wouldn't bet the farm that this would hold true for a player selected in the mid-rounds.
Although realistically the chance of the two trade down is unlikely to happen, it is not at all uncommon. If we can get that first trade with Cleveland, I'd definitely be looking for that second trade to move a few spots lower in exchange for another two. If we trade the 1-1, to get value, we absolutely will get at a minimum a one and a two. A one next year, in trade value, is counted as a two this year, so an extra one this year and a one next year is value for value. Trading from #4 to #9 is worth a two; so that is how I arrived at my picks. Really, if the cards fell right, not that hard to see happening.

The only real question mark is how O'Brian evaluates Keenum and Yates. My personal opinion is that Keenum has the higher chance of sticking with the team. But Kubiak saw something to draft TJ in the 5th, so maybe a new coach and a new system would give TJ a new chance.
You might be interested in my mock draft in that forum presented as BADBOY's January mock. I have been talking about a trade with Browns for some time and offer a second trade also. Appreciate the thought you put into your thread POV.

Marshall
01-11-2014, 04:18 PM
Land of misfit Posters here. I left there after they banned Texian for expressing his opinion, and maybe some other things. Havent gone back since, not even to " check things out"

The other board has become intellectually incestuous about what can and cannot be the belief of it's posters. God cannot be mentioned, even in passing. But drunkenness and debauchery is promoted ceaselessly.

If you have a political opinion, it better be progressive or your toast.

I actually prefer this board. The other was just convenient with links from NFL.com.

The Pencil Neck
01-11-2014, 04:40 PM
Fair answer and in agreement with many. But what are your expectations, under this scenario, for the defense. You do agree that to be contenders we do need a fairly good defense? We have one, maybe two holes to address on offense, which you've addressed. But we have as many as 6 or 8 holes to address on defense. What's your answer to this?

I'm not Allstar but...

Our defense was not that bad except in terms of forcing turnovers and performing in the red zone. So I'm not buying that it needs that many "fixes" despite what a lot of people may think.

We can go with KJ, JJo, Danieal, and Swearinger and hopefully bring along some young talent. Hopefully, a change in scheme will make some of the depth guys better or we'll have to get some more depth guys (Harris, Keo, Buoye, Pleasant, etc.)

Our outside guys are not great. Hopefully, we can nab someone like a Worilds in free agency, draft a guy to replace Reed or Mercilus, OR one of those guys (including Trevardo Williams) develops.

Our inside backers... well... see... we've got Cushing and then we've got depth. We need another starter there, afaic.

We need a big guy in the middle and we may need to swap out our current crop of DEs for two gappers.

But the responsibilities of the front 7 might change dramatically. Yes, Crennel has been known to favor a more classic 3-4 but he's also implemented a 4-3. I have a feeling he's going to take a look at the personnel we have, see how many picks he can get, ask for a FA or two, and then implement some sort of hybrid to take advantage of everyone's strengths.

EllisUnit
01-11-2014, 04:41 PM
Ideal scenario- we will never see anything Denver related in Houston ever again!!! Can I get a high five?!

Now we will see all the patriots left overs instead. oh yippy :kitten:

Number19
01-11-2014, 05:37 PM
I'm not Allstar but...

Our defense was not that bad except in terms of forcing turnovers and performing in the red zone. So I'm not buying that it needs that many "fixes" despite what a lot of people may think.

We can go with KJ, JJo, Danieal, and Swearinger and hopefully bring along some young talent. Hopefully, a change in scheme will make some of the depth guys better or we'll have to get some more depth guys (Harris, Keo, Buoye, Pleasant, etc.)

Our outside guys are not great. Hopefully, we can nab someone like a Worilds in free agency, draft a guy to replace Reed or Mercilus, OR one of those guys (including Trevardo Williams) develops.

Our inside backers... well... see... we've got Cushing and then we've got depth. We need another starter there, afaic.

We need a big guy in the middle and we may need to swap out our current crop of DEs for two gappers.

But the responsibilities of the front 7 might change dramatically. Yes, Crennel has been known to favor a more classic 3-4 but he's also implemented a 4-3. I have a feeling he's going to take a look at the personnel we have, see how many picks he can get, ask for a FA or two, and then implement some sort of hybrid to take advantage of everyone's strengths.I'm not quite as satisfied with our defensive backs. I saw too many deep balls being given up. But I do agree that fixing our pass rush may help alleviate this problem. And maybe new coaching might help the cover skills.

I agree that the players named form a good core to bring back. I still think we need at least one safety and one CB.

We need an OLB and an ILB. Maybe Reed moves inside.

And I agree, the big hole we need to address is the big guy in the middle of the DL.

But I think you overlooked replacing Antonio Smith. Do you expect him back? Maybe Crick replaces him, but I think we still need another player here.

So I've got six holes that need addressing, at a minimum. Some of these may be addressed in free agency, as you say. I don't think we are that much in disagreement.

It's just that I'd address these with quality draft picks. By that, I mean taken in the first three rounds. Maybe the forth. But this is more holes than we have picks to fill.

So when you write, "... I have a feeling he's going to take a look at the personnel we have, see how many picks he can get, ask for a FA or two, and then implement some sort of hybrid to take advantage of everyone's strengths...", I'm in total agreement.

I'm just thinking that two quality draft picks doesn't do it.

amazing80
01-11-2014, 05:41 PM
Not directed at you, but as a springboard:

Can we please eliminate all the Bob stuff? It's confusing having it all over the MB about both the coach and owner with umpteen different spellings to boot.

To illustrate - BoB FYI was steelb's slam at McNair for being cheap.

sounds like the "official" boards with all these bs rules.

DBCooper
01-11-2014, 05:47 PM
sounds like the "official" boards with all these bs rules.

Compare this place to the other board?

You frikkin kidding me?

DBCooper
01-11-2014, 05:49 PM
I'm not quite as satisfied with our defensive backs. I saw too many deep balls being given up. But I do agree that fixing our pass rush may help alleviate this problem. And maybe new coaching might help the cover skills.

I agree that the players named form a good core to bring back. I still think we need at least one safety and one CB.

We need an OLB and an ILB. Maybe Reed moves inside.

And I agree, the big hole we need to address is the big guy in the middle of the DL.

But I think you overlooked replacing Antonio Smith. Do you expect him back? Maybe Crick replaces him, but I think we still need another player here.

So I've got six holes that need addressing, at a minimum. Some of these may be addressed in free agency, as you say. I don't think we are that much in disagreement.

It's just that I'd address these with quality draft picks. By that, I mean taken in the first three rounds. Maybe the forth. But this is more holes than we have picks to fill.

So when you write, "... I have a feeling he's going to take a look at the personnel we have, see how many picks he can get, ask for a FA or two, and then implement some sort of hybrid to take advantage of everyone's strengths...", I'm in total agreement.

I'm just thinking that two quality draft picks doesn't do it.

The DB's will do a lot better when they're not asked to play man every down.

amazing80
01-11-2014, 05:51 PM
Compare this place to the other board?

You frikkin kidding me?

Well complaining about a nickname for someone is kinda stupid. If you don't like it cool, but don't try to enforce or push users into calling people something else. BOB is OBriens name even on the Penn St forums, so its not that big a deal.

amazing80
01-11-2014, 05:52 PM
The DB's will do a lot better when they're not asked to plan man every down.

I agree, although I still worry some about deep safety help.

DBCooper
01-11-2014, 05:56 PM
Well complaining about a nickname for someone is kinda stupid. If you don't like it cool, but don't try to enforce or push users into calling people something else. BOB is OBriens name even on the Penn St forums, so its not that big a deal.

He asked, not threatened.

Show respect or don't or you can be an a$$hole about it.

I don't like it either, confuses the $hit out of me because we have been calling McNair (BoB) for years.

amazing80
01-11-2014, 06:00 PM
He asked, not threatened.

Show respect or don't or you can be an a$$hole about it.

I don't like it either, confuses the $hit out of me because we have been calling McNair (BoB) for years.

Well you know what they say about a-holes. You need em' around to keep **** flowing :kitten:

DBCooper
01-11-2014, 06:07 PM
Well you know what they say about a-holes. You need em' around to keep **** flowing :kitten:

Yep, that's one thing they say.................

ATXtexanfan
01-11-2014, 06:20 PM
sounds like the "official" boards with all these bs rules.

What offical board?

Fred
01-11-2014, 06:39 PM
I wasn't given a choice after the Mods went on a hissy fit.

I got banned for quoting a moderator's post and then using his favorite words "Don't discuss non-Texans in the Bullpen." He discusses non-Texan in the Bullpen, but I was banned for "moderator abuse" for saying what he said every day. LOL. This board is 100x better.

Number19
01-11-2014, 06:43 PM
Basically, what I'm reading, between the off topic comments, is that we bring in new coaches and a new defense.

Defensively, we bring in a quality FA, and several lower cost FA's. Then maybe take the big guy in a later round, maybe the 4th or 5th. And we address two defensive spots in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

We draft a QB with 1-1.

We go with our current offensive linemen and maybe bring in an affordable FA or two.

Seegara
01-11-2014, 06:55 PM
Agree.

O'Brien's nickname has been OB (O'Bie) or Billy. OB is shortest/easiest for me.
But OB is too easily confused with QB.

Texan_Bill
01-11-2014, 06:57 PM
Not directed at you, but as a springboard:

Can we please eliminate all the Bob stuff? It's confusing having it all over the MB about both the coach and owner with umpteen different spellings to boot.

To illustrate - BoB FYI was steelb's slam at McNair for being cheap.

Meh, I prefer ByOB!!:ahhaha:

Seegara
01-11-2014, 07:03 PM
I got banned for quoting a moderator's post and then using his favorite words "Don't discuss non-Texans in the Bullpen." He discusses non-Texan in the Bullpen, but I was banned for "moderator abuse" for saying what he said every day. LOL. This board is 100x better.
I, among many others, am a refugee from that board, where the troll-like moderators shut down my IP address so that I can't even read the posts without using an alternate internet provider.

Number19
01-11-2014, 07:08 PM
Moderator, how about dividing this thread into two separate threads.

DBCooper
01-11-2014, 07:15 PM
Moderator, how about dividing this thread into two separate threads.

Lol

Thread drift is unavoidable.


Ideal Scenario:

We get a stud QB and win the Super Bowl over the Dallas Cowboys!

kiwitexansfan
01-11-2014, 07:28 PM
Ideal scenario we have 7 picks, they all become probowlers as rookies, go undefeated, win the Super Bowl and in his downtime JJ Watt finds the cure for cancer.

ATXtexanfan
01-11-2014, 07:50 PM
Ideal scenario..........nfc champ forfeits its superbowl bid vs the texans cause the texans have outscored their opponents 9 million to zero

Texan_Bill
01-11-2014, 07:52 PM
Ideal Scenarios

I experience a Super Bowl win before I die?? That's my ideal scenario!!

badboy
01-11-2014, 08:09 PM
So many folks complaining about the "official" board and how good this one is. I agree with both but would like to point out this board uses donations to keep "our" board trucking and allowing Hook'em Horns to do what he needs. So put your money where your mouth is (I say pleasantly). Let's prove we enjoy opportunity to come here and do our thing.

LikeMike
01-11-2014, 08:36 PM
I don`t understand the logic of waiting for our QB till next season. I don`t think McNair or O`Brien will be happy with a 3 win season or worse. Yet, if we finish any better, we probably have no chance at a top 3 pick. Now if the QBs in next years draft are as good as the people who want us to wait think are, then we have no real chance to get them.

Of course, we might get one with giving up on basically our whole draft and "overpaying" heavily for him. But even then, there is no guarantee that QB actually lives up to his projected potential.

Now this year we can get the best QB of this class basically for free, because we already own the first pick. Of course, we might get a great offer for that pick, but if we are at all comfortable with any of the QBs available I believe you have to take him - because we might not have a chance to get another top rated QB in the near future.

Ideal scenario? We draft a QB and he fulfills his potential.

acal21
01-11-2014, 09:14 PM
BILL is going to figure out which QB he likes the most in this draft, someone he will be able to work with year 1.. we have the running game to back the QB up with foster healthy (i do believe he will come back healthy)

If there is no clear cut QB BILL likes then I do see us trading back a couple slots and taking a QB there...

And all people are saying that no RBS will go in round 1 so i wouldn't mind taking the best available.. our defense needs some fixing but lets just keep getting explosive on offense

76Texan
01-11-2014, 09:32 PM
Ideal scenarios:

1. O'Brien becomes the best HC the Texans ever had.

2. O'Brien can put together the best staff the Texans ever did.

3. O'Brien is the best talent evaluator the Texans ever had he can influence the GM and the scouting department to find him the right guys for the team.

None of us will have anything to worry about; we'll just enjoy watching football.
:ahhaha:

Number19
01-11-2014, 09:32 PM
You have it wrong. The logic is not to draft a QB next year; it's whether to trade down from our 1-1 pick, to acquire additional picks to upgrade our overall talent, particularly on defense.

Acquiring our QB next year is only one course of action in the trade down scenario, and is dependent upon two factors; 1) acquiring an additional #1 pick for 2015, to be used with our own #1 pick, to trade up in the 2015 draft; and 2) O'Brien evaluating Keenum and Tate and concluding he can win with one or the other.

Unfortunately, O'Brien will not have the opportunity for on field evaluation, so this decision must be based solely on film study.

There is another branch to the trade down scenario where we might acquire a QB in the 2nd or 3rd round rather than waiting until next year.

The logic of trading down is also dependent upon the coaching staff evaluating our defensive talent and its fit within the new defensive scheme and coming to the conclusion that the best course of action is to upgrade our defensive talent.

Corrosion
01-11-2014, 09:38 PM
One question going around the board is: do we draft a QB with our top pick or do we trade down, picking up a QB lower in the draft, in rounds two or three? I offer the suggestion that we wait until 2015 to pick up our QB of the future. With this as a possibility, here is one "Ideal Scenario".




I don't have the patience to wait another year for a QB when we are in position right now to pick a long term solution at the position nor do I have the patience to move back twice in this draft .... essentially pissing away the season muddling around with Case and Yates @ QB. I want to see a commitment to winning - Not losing.

Coaching changes aside , I think the ideal situation is to move back with Cleveland in exchange for 4 , 25, 69 + a future first or 4 , 25 & 36 in this draft.
You also need one of Clowney or Matthews taken in those first three picks leaving you one of Bortles , Bridgewater & Manziel at the 4th pick - I'd be happy with any of the three ....and would be content with taking the leftovers for the above compensation.

With those other picks , I'd take a TE , DE & RT in no specific order , the order & names would be dependent upon which of the above compensation packages were offered / accepted.

Think of coming out of this draft with one of Bortles , Bridgewater or Manziel and the following in the first three rounds :

25 - Cyrus Kouandjio or Antonio Richardson
33 - Trent Murphy
36 - Jace Amaro
65 - Shane Skov or E.J. Gaines


25 - Cyrus Kouandjio or Antonio Richardson
33 - Trent Murphy
65 - Arthur Lynch
69 - Shane Skov or E.J. Gaines
+ next years #1.


That sure solves a lot of the problems this team has quickly.
69

DBCooper
01-11-2014, 09:43 PM
You have it wrong. The logic is not to draft a QB next year; it's whether to trade down from our 1-1 pick, to acquire additional picks to upgrade our overall talent, particularly on defense.

Acquiring our QB next year is only one course of action in the trade down scenario, and is dependent upon two factors; 1) acquiring an additional #1 pick for 2015, to be used with our own #1 pick, to trade up in the 2015 draft; and 2) O'Brien evaluating Keenum and Tate and concluding he can win with one or the other.

Unfortunately, O'Brien will not have the opportunity for on field evaluation, so this decision must be based solely on film study.

There is another branch to the trade down scenario where we might acquire a QB in the 2nd or 3rd round rather than waiting until next year.

The logic of trading down is also dependent upon the coaching staff evaluating our defensive talent and its fit within the new defensive scheme and coming to the conclusion that the best course of action is to upgrade our defensive talent.

http://m.quickmeme.com/img/83/8309a3ba26e6286e0124e6219a246ea2581569aba486511afa a58b44ab42feb9.jpg

Thorn
01-11-2014, 09:52 PM
Can we win a couple ****ing games next year? That would be nice.

Texanmike02
01-11-2014, 09:55 PM
Yep. The young guns should be able to win without help, right? They can pass the ball, catch the ball, and run away from the sieve which was our oline. I gotcha. No help required.

What a BS argument. The truth is that TJ was 2-3 with a complete team. Case was progressively worse as teams got tape on him.

Did Case do anything to make you believe he is the successor? Seriously?

Mike

Number19
01-11-2014, 09:55 PM
I don't have the patience to wait another year for a QB when we are in position right now to pick a long term solution at the position nor do I have the patience to move back twice in this draft .... essentially pissing away the season muddling around with Case and Yates @ QB. I want to see a commitment to winning - Not losing...The one trade down is very plausible. I can easily see the staff pursuing this course of action.

Corrosion
01-11-2014, 10:01 PM
Can we win a couple ****ing games next year? That would be nice.

Well , they did win a couple this year ....

(Im with you tho , I would be less than thrilled to piss away another year waiting to pick a QB .... and piss off that year waiting on a rookie QB to figure it out when we can put that behind us .... right now).

mussop
01-11-2014, 10:17 PM
I don't have the patience to wait another year for a QB when we are in position right now to pick a long term solution at the position nor do I have the patience to move back twice in this draft .... essentially pissing away the season muddling around with Case and Yates @ QB. I want to see a commitment to winning - Not losing.

Coaching changes aside , I think the ideal situation is to move back with Cleveland in exchange for 4 , 25, 69 + a future first or 4 , 25 & 36 in this draft.
You also need one of Clowney or Matthews taken in those first three picks leaving you one of Bortles , Bridgewater & Manziel at the 4th pick - I'd be happy with any of the three ....and would be content with taking the leftovers for the above compensation.

With those other picks , I'd take a TE , DE & RT in no specific order , the order & names would be dependent upon which of the above compensation packages were offered / accepted.

Think of coming out of this draft with one of Bortles , Bridgewater or Manziel and the following in the first three rounds :

25 - Cyrus Kouandjio or Antonio Richardson
33 - Trent Murphy
36 - Jace Amaro
65 - Shane Skov or E.J. Gaines


25 - Cyrus Kouandjio or Antonio Richardson
33 - Trent Murphy
65 - Arthur Lynch
69 - Shane Skov or E.J. Gaines
+ next years #1.


That sure solves a lot of the problems this team has quickly.
69


It's like you are stealing my board. Great picks!!!!

Norg
01-11-2014, 10:25 PM
-Stock pile picks

-Purge half the roster and all these scrub PLAYERS

-Get your QB of the future in 2015

- Keep Matt schaub and have a open competition with your 4th round QB pick ....... then name matt the starter Week 1 :P



/ thread


that's what I would do

Number19
01-11-2014, 10:28 PM
...Did Case do anything to make you believe he is the successor? Seriously?This is the wrong question. The question should be: what are the realistic expectations for next season and can Case achieve this degree of success in the short term?

Evaluating only his college film, how does he compare to this year's QB's?

My understanding is that the big negative on Case is that he didn't work from under center and worked from the spread offense. But this is exactly where the pro game seems to be moving toward. His size was also questioned and his arm strength was questioned. But my understanding is that he was one of the QB's brought in early at Indy to throw to the receivers and had a tired arm when it came time for his own evaluation.

If we can acquire additional picks in 2015, then O'Brien could have all of next year for making a final decision on what level of success Case might eventually acquire. But I do think it probable that O'Brien will want to take a QB in this year's draft.

I'm with 76Texan in that this coming season is going to be interesting.

Corrosion
01-11-2014, 10:38 PM
I'm with 76Texan in that this coming season is going to be interesting.

I don't agree with 76 when it comes to Keenum , he still believes in him , I think the experiment is over tho I would consider keeping him around as a backup , nothing more.

The most telling thing to me is that the more he played , the worse he got as defenses figured out how to make him uncomfortable and ineffective.
He started off pretty good , made some big plays along the way but was incapable of sustaining or finishing drives.

Would have been a great story , but there is no storybook ending for this one ....

Cut Schaub , draft a rookie , sign a cheap free agent .... let those two fight it out with Keenum & Yates.


Yeah , it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Norg
01-11-2014, 10:40 PM
next year im just hoping for a 7-9 season if we get any higher I would be SHocked ....

Corrosion
01-11-2014, 10:49 PM
next year im just hoping for a 7-9 season if we get any higher I would be SHocked ....

This team has a lot of talent ... if they get the right guy at QB , Cushing & Foster regain their form and they stay injury free .... they could really surprise us and maybe make the playoffs.
This division isn't particularly good .... Even the Dolts have issues , Luck doesn't look like the world beater he was hyped to be despite the fact that they are in the playoffs and won last week ....


The fortunes of this team all come down to the QB position ..... :kitten:


It's like you are stealing my board. Great picks!!!!

I was peeking at your draft notes ....

Texanmike02
01-11-2014, 10:52 PM
This is the wrong question. The question should be: what are the realistic expectations for next season and can Case achieve this degree of success in the short term?

Evaluating only his college film, how does he compare to this year's QB's?

My understanding is that the big negative on Case is that he didn't work from under center and worked from the spread offense. But this is exactly where the pro game seems to be moving toward. His size was also questioned and his arm strength was questioned. But my understanding is that he was one of the QB's brought in early at Indy to throw to the receivers and had a tired arm when it came time for his own evaluation.

If we can acquire additional picks in 2015, then O'Brien could have all of next year for making a final decision on what level of success Case might eventually acquire. But I do think it probable that O'Brien will want to take a QB in this year's draft.

I'm with 76Texan in that this coming season is going to be interesting.

Evaluate only his college film? Why go to the college tape? Why not just evaluate all of the QB's by their pop warner film? You have pro film on Case. He has a decent arm but is terrible when blitzed (he tends not to make the right reads). To say he didn't have any weapons is inaccurate. There was enough talent around him for him to throw for 7 TDs 0 INTs while completing 55% of his passes for 772 yards in his first three games against KC, IND and ARI (two pretty good defenses).

After that Jax 2 times, NE, OAK and IND held him to 2 TDs, 6 INTs and he only got over 55% completion ratio once. Once teams got film on him he was terrible. If you need more evidence, in the second half of those first three games he threw one TD (to AJ) in the second half.

I'm not going to tell you that he can't be a decent QB but he isn't a franchise QB. Simply put, in today's NFL I want more development from my QB than I have had from Case in 2 years.

Sure I don't want to spend resources on a QB if there isn't one available and I am a big proponent of trading back but you have to at least try to address the QB position this season. I wanted to see what Case could do last year and even if your goal isn't the playoffs this year, the moment a QB self eliminates himself from the future you should be taking a flyer on another QB instead of wasting resources on a guy that has shown he isn't the guy. Take a guy in the 3rd or 4th, I don't care, but don't limp out there with a guy that isn't good enough to be a stop gap and most likely peaked in his first 3 games in the NFL.

Mike

Number19
01-11-2014, 10:56 PM
I don't agree with 76 when it comes to Keenum , he still believes in him , I think the experiment is over tho I would consider keeping him around as a backup , nothing more.

The most telling thing to me is that the more he played , the worse he got as defenses figured out how to make him uncomfortable and ineffective.
He started off pretty good , made some big plays along the way but was incapable of sustaining or finishing drives.

Would have been a great story , but there is no storybook ending for this one ....

Cut Schaub , draft a rookie , sign a cheap free agent .... let those two fight it out with Keenum & Yates.


Yeah , it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.The thing is, while all this losing streak was going on, and listening to Kubiak's press conferences, and his comments about how Case had to learn to do this and learn to do that, and had to improve this and improve that, I was thinking that Keenum was beginning to overthink things instead of just playing. O'Brien has a reputation of adjusting his game to fit his players. Kubiak seemed to put players in a straight jacket. This is what makes me think that, under evaluation, O'Brien may see things differently from the common perception.

Corrosion
01-11-2014, 11:04 PM
The thing is, while all this losing streak was going on, and listening to Kubiak's press conferences, and his comments about how Case had to learn to do this and learn to do that, and had to improve this and improve that, I was thinking that Keenum was beginning to overthink things instead of just playing. O'Brien has a reputation of adjusting his game to fit his players. Kubiak seemed to put players in a straight jacket. This is what makes me think that, under evaluation, O'Brien may see things differently from the common perception.

I might give this line of thinking a second thought had Keenum been able to recognize pressure situations pre snap - He couldn't.

How many times did we see a team overload on one side , bring four and get home for a sack or cause a poor throw ?! Too damn many. Its the QB's job to identify those situations and get into the proper protection scheme.

The one thing I will concede is that the backs did a horrible job in picking up the blitz during that stretch .... but had they played flawlessly in that aspect , I don't think it changes much as Keenum just didn't make the right reads often enough.

Texanmike02
01-11-2014, 11:10 PM
IMO, you are wrong. Next year's team isn't even assembled yet, so it is flat out impossible for "it" to have any kind of expectations. Now, if you mean "you" have playoff aspirations for the team next season, IMO, you are setting yourself up for a huge disappointment. Of course, you may be speaking only in hypotheticals, in which case all 32 teams have playoff aspirations. But realistically, significant improvement is what should be expected, or as I previously stated, 6 to 8 wins. We may do better, but, as fans, it should not be realistically expected. And I also think that O'Brian, and his future staff, will be much more qualified to determine what he can accomplish with T.J. and Case.



No. I'm looking at the fact that for a 2-14 team this team doesn't have as many holes as you would expect.

QB.
RB could be an issue if Foster isn't healthy but the most successful teams in the league don't rely on one solid back anymore these days.
Our OL is kind of weak at RT but that's really our only weakness.
WR. I think we're in pretty decent shape.
TE. I'm comfortable with our position.

On defense:
DL. We could use a true NT in RC's defense but I think that we have our end positions covered pretty well with JJ. We just need someone to occupy blockers opposite him.

LBs. Obviously this is our weakest position on the team outside of QB. Cush may or may not be back so you have to look for his replacement (or partner if he comes back). WM is passable and I would move Reed inside and try to get a better Sam. If Cush comes back I'm good with WM, BR, BC, X If not you have two holes to fill.

DBs.

I really don't think our DBs are as bad as they looked. Jackson is a true #1 and JJoe has regressed but he's still an outstanding #2. Find a nickel guy and we're in decent shape for the CBs.

At S I'm ok with Manning/Swearenger.

Fill QB, One of the two LBs, RT and RB if Foster doesn't come back healthy, and this is a playoff team. The key is to add solid depth but this team should not be shooting for 6-8 wins next season. There is just too much talent and besides, suppose we win 6 games next year. That's probably the 7-10th pick. We have no idea who will be out there.

Mike

Number19
01-11-2014, 11:10 PM
...The most telling thing to me is that the more he played , the worse he got as defenses figured out how to make him uncomfortable and ineffective.
He started off pretty good , made some big plays along the way but was incapable of sustaining or finishing drives...How much of this was on Kubiak for not being flexible enough to make adjustments and on play calling? Kubiak was one dimensional and didn't seem to be an innovator. When Kubiak's system, and play calling, was figured out, this was too much for a rookie to overcome.

Corrosion
01-11-2014, 11:23 PM
How much of this was on Kubiak for not being flexible enough to make adjustments and on play calling? Kubiak was one dimensional and didn't seem to be an innovator. When Kubiak's system, and play calling, was figured out, this was too much for a rookie to overcome.

What you fail to realize is that every play had adjustments that could be made at the line. Its on the QB to recognize presnap those situations and make the proper adjustment calls be that a route combination , a protection package or both.


Most people here seem to think that the QB's were not allowed to audible but the fact is that they were able to make the necessary changes to be successful against any given defensive scheme at any given time.

For instance , they call a run play with 8 in the box .... they have a pass play from the same set that they can adjust to.
The defense shows an overload on one side or the other , the line has different responsibilities and the route combinations change along with the # of steps in the QB's drop or they have a run play from the same set ....

We don't see all this as fans watching the game but the adjustments are at the QB's disposal.


We just think "they don't audible" .....

The Pencil Neck
01-11-2014, 11:45 PM
I'm not quite as satisfied with our defensive backs. I saw too many deep balls being given up. But I do agree that fixing our pass rush may help alleviate this problem. And maybe new coaching might help the cover skills.

I agree that the players named form a good core to bring back. I still think we need at least one safety and one CB.

We need an OLB and an ILB. Maybe Reed moves inside.

And I agree, the big hole we need to address is the big guy in the middle of the DL.

But I think you overlooked replacing Antonio Smith. Do you expect him back? Maybe Crick replaces him, but I think we still need another player here.

So I've got six holes that need addressing, at a minimum. Some of these may be addressed in free agency, as you say. I don't think we are that much in disagreement.

It's just that I'd address these with quality draft picks. By that, I mean taken in the first three rounds. Maybe the forth. But this is more holes than we have picks to fill.

So when you write, "... I have a feeling he's going to take a look at the personnel we have, see how many picks he can get, ask for a FA or two, and then implement some sort of hybrid to take advantage of everyone's strengths...", I'm in total agreement.

I'm just thinking that two quality draft picks doesn't do it.

We don't have to solve all our problems. We only have to solve the RIGHT problems and then implement schemes to cover the others.

We have free agency and we have the draft and we have players on our roster (including IR) who might be used more effectively.

Antonio Smith has said he wants to remain a Texan. I expect him to get an offer too good for us to match. BUT. If we are going to a 2-gap defensive line, he might not be the DE we want and someone like Crick might even fit the bill better.

But the bottom line is that every team has flaws and holes. A good team finds ways to win.

PapaL
01-11-2014, 11:54 PM
My ideal scenario would be Clowney at #1 and Boyd at #33.

bhsman
01-11-2014, 11:56 PM
FWIW, O'Brien refers to himself as "Obie" in his Brown University yearbook entry, and I've started to refer to him as OB1, but that's me.

But BO would be confusing with an OBAMANATION with the same initials.

Yeah, some people with thin skin and shorter tempers might not be able to handle it. :kitten:

MEGA SWATT
01-12-2014, 12:05 AM
But BO would be confusing with an OBAMANATION with the same initials.

BM isn't really a good thing to call our owner unless he starts wearing Jersey number 2.

I'll go along with BOB for the coach and Bob for the owner. Fair enough?

Bill - coach

Bob -owner


that was not too hard was it? same amt of letters in Bill and BOB (Bill O'Brien)

Number19
01-12-2014, 12:14 AM
What you fail to realize is that every play had adjustments that could be made at the line. Its on the QB to recognize presnap those situations and make the proper adjustment calls be that a route combination , a protection package or both.


Most people here seem to think that the QB's were not allowed to audible but the fact is that they were able to make the necessary changes to be successful against any given defensive scheme at any given time.

For instance , they call a run play with 8 in the box .... they have a pass play from the same set that they can adjust to.
The defense shows an overload on one side or the other , the line has different responsibilities and the route combinations change along with the # of steps in the QB's drop or they have a run play from the same set ....

We don't see all this as fans watching the game but the adjustments are at the QB's disposal.


We just think "they don't audible" .....I understand this. We differ on expectations of success from a third string rookie coming in at mid-season and how quickly the book should be closed on him.

The story on O'Brien is that he's not like other rookie NFL HC's. He's his own man. The draft may be the first indication how this is going to play out.

I'm going to be OK with whatever decisions are made by the new coaching staff and will look forward to the new season.

mussop
01-12-2014, 02:27 AM
I don't agree with 76 when it comes to Keenum , he still believes in him , I think the experiment is over tho I would consider keeping him around as a backup , nothing more.

The most telling thing to me is that the more he played , the worse he got as defenses figured out how to make him uncomfortable and ineffective.
He started off pretty good , made some big plays along the way but was incapable of sustaining or finishing drives.

Would have been a great story , but there is no storybook ending for this one ....

Cut Schaub , draft a rookie , sign a cheap free agent .... let those two fight it out with Keenum & Yates.


Yeah , it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Was it him that defenses figured out or was it our predictable checkdown offense? I'm still wondering if it would of mattered who QB'ed this offense. Case fits what O'brian is looking for in a QB. I'm looking forward to seeing how that all turns out.

I'm not willing to gamble on it. I'm getting a QB but I think there is a chance his career could be salvaged. I'm not 100 % giving up on him.

Norg
01-12-2014, 03:22 AM
This team has a lot of talent ... if they get the right guy at QB , Cushing & Foster regain their form and they stay injury free .... they could really surprise us and maybe make the playoffs.
This division isn't particularly good .... Even the Dolts have issues , Luck doesn't look like the world beater he was hyped to be despite the fact that they are in the playoffs and won last week ....


The fortunes of this team all come down to the QB position ..... :kitten:




I was peeking at your draft notes ....


pfff u must have a lot more optimism

were is this "Talent" u speak Off I just don't see it Foster Brown Cushing andre there not has good has u think

TheMatrix31
01-12-2014, 05:16 AM
My ideal scenario would be a trade down to get a few extra picks, take Matthews, take a shot with a QB in the second or third round, and bolster the **** out of this team with depth. If we're hell-bent on getting catastrophic injuries up and down the roster year after year after year after year, the depth has to improve.

As for names, why can't people just call them "McNair" and "O'Brien"? The constant abbreviation/nicknaming of things in society is exhausting and wholly unnecessary.

Corrosion
01-12-2014, 06:12 AM
I understand this. We differ on expectations of success from a third string rookie coming in at mid-season and how quickly the book should be closed on him.



Keenum wasn't a rookie , he had two full offseason's , year on the practice squad and a half season on the 53 man roster to learn the system & playbook.

Was it him that defenses figured out or was it our predictable checkdown offense? I'm still wondering if it would of mattered who QB'ed this offense. Case fits what O'brian is looking for in a QB. I'm looking forward to seeing how that all turns out.

I'm not willing to gamble on it. I'm getting a QB but I think there is a chance his career could be salvaged. I'm not 100 % giving up on him.

I didn't 100% give up on Keenum career wise .... I think he could be a capable backup. That's not a bad career path all things considered.
Where I draw the line is that I don't believe he's starter material & I'm not willing to go into next season with him as the starter .... Give me an early draft pick and a vet FA .... let the three of them fight it out.


As for what defenses caught onto , I think it was pretty obvious that it was Keenum's inability make routine reads in the 5-15 yard range that sustain drives & dealing with pressure early within the scope of a play. Now if he could avoid the early pressure , he made some big plays.

Go back and watch some of that train wreck of a season if you can stomach it ... Its plain to see what he had issues with. The fact that his best performance was in the first half of the first game is very telling .... From that point on , it was a downward spiral for the most part.

Number19
01-12-2014, 07:59 AM
Keenum wasn't a rookie , he had two full offseason's , year on the practice squad and a half season on the 53 man roster to learn the system & playbook.This was predictable; I was expecting it. The bottom line is the number of reps he was given to absorb the complexity of the play calling and the speed of the game. The practice squad is the "scout" team. He had little time with the Texans' scheme. The half season on the 53 man roster - Schaub takes the majority of reps each week, TJ had some and Case had the remaining. Training camp was the majority of his opportunity to "learn". These two years, the film room was the basis for his schooling in the game, but you need reps. What is it teams have, three days a week in full pads? So Case had maybe a total of 24 practices, each week dealing with a new defensive.
...Give me an early draft pick and a vet FA .... let the three of them fight it out...In my scenario I mentioned acquiring a veteran FA QB. But drafting a QB in the first round, there will no competition.

Given his circumstances, the game hadn't yet "slowed down" for Case.

76Texan
01-12-2014, 09:14 AM
Corrosion ought to know me; I had rewatched all the plays, especially the incompletions, sacks, INts at least a dozen times each, often many more times.
In fact, I've been spending time re-watching them the last few days; and those won't be the last times, I can guarantee with him that.

Corrosion, TXMike, TK and the likes are overstating the situations, from what I see.

We've seen Kaepernick got sacked 3 times last week while Rodgers was decked 4 times.
We've seen Wilson got his 3 yesterday while running away from many others.
And let's see, he threw for a whopping 103 yard.
How about that fellow Luck? Let's see; 3 sacks and 4 INts.
Oh, and he threw 3 INTs last week, too.
Defenses had him figured out, I bet.
I mean, these guys obviously are career back-ups.

I've watched Drew Brees throw 5 INTs against the Falcons in 2012.
I mean that guy obviously is a career back up.
In his second year, his TD/InT was 8/13 in a 9-game stretch.
It didn't get any better his third year as he started the first 8 games with 7/12
In the Chargers' lone win, he threw for 74 yards, zero TD, and an INT.
He was so bad that he had a 49-yd game. The Chargers ended up winning another game, a meaningless game in the last week of the season with Brees throwing for 97 yards, whoopie do!
In his second year with the Saints, he started the first 4 games with one TD and 9 INTs.
I mean, some guy can only get so many chances.
Drew Brees is a career back-up.

Look at Keenum, he had had his chances; now we move on.

Obviously, I need a big sarcasm emoticon here, LOL.

Texanmike02
01-12-2014, 09:57 AM
Corrosion ought to know me; I had rewatched all the plays, especially the incompletions, sacks, INts at least a dozen times each, often many more times.
In fact, I've been spending time re-watching them the last few days; and those won't be the last times, I can guarantee with him that.

Corrosion, TXMike, TK and the likes are overstating the situations, from what I see.

We've seen Kaepernick got sacked 3 times last week while Rodgers was decked 4 times.
We've seen Wilson got his 3 yesterday while running away from many others.
And let's see, he threw for a whopping 103 yard.
How about that fellow Luck? Let's see; 3 sacks and 4 INts.
Oh, and he threw 3 INTs last week, too.
Defenses had him figured out, I bet.
I mean, these guys obviously are career back-ups.

I've watched Drew Brees throw 5 INTs against the Falcons in 2012.
I mean that guy obviously is a career back up.
In his second year, his TD/InT was 8/13 in a 9-game stretch.
It didn't get any better his third year as he started the first 8 games with 7/12
In the Chargers' lone win, he threw for 74 yards, zero TD, and an INT.
He was so bad that he had a 49-yd game. The Chargers ended up winning another game, a meaningless game in the last week of the season with Brees throwing for 97 yards, whoopie do!
In his second year with the Saints, he started the first 4 games with one TD and 9 INTs.
I mean, some guy can only get so many chances.
Drew Brees is a career back-up.

Look at Keenum, he had had his chances; now we move on.

Obviously, I need a big sarcasm emoticon here, LOL.

I will admit that it is possible that Case Manning exists. He could figure it all out and win the MVP next year or 5 years from now. Every player has a chance to improve dramatically at any point in their career.

That said, for every Drew Brees there are 400 Dave Ragones.

Mike

76Texan
01-12-2014, 10:07 AM
I will admit that it is possible that Case Manning exists. He could figure it all out and win the MVP next year or 5 years from now. Every player has a chance to improve dramatically at any point in their career.

That said, for every Drew Brees there are 400 Dave Ragones.

Mike

That was why I voted "not sure" in the Keenum's thread.

I didn't write him in, nor did I write him off.

As with the QBs with lesser stature, he's always a long shot until he proves he can do it (whatever that "it" one defines it is.)

Texanmike02
01-12-2014, 10:11 AM
That was why I voted "not sure" in the Keenum's thread.

I didn't write him in, nor did I write him off.

As with the QB with lesser stature, he's always a long shot until he proves he can do it (whatever that "it" one defines it is.)

Well I never said "cut him". I am fine with letting him compete but you better find someone else. If you think he's really going to just leap ahead of the pack then let him perform his miracle and surpass his successor. Much better than finding out you were wrong about him AND having done nothing this offseason.

Mike

76Texan
01-12-2014, 10:48 AM
Well I never said "cut him". I am fine with letting him compete but you better find someone else. If you think he's really going to just leap ahead of the pack then let him perform his miracle and surpass his successor. Much better than finding out you were wrong about him AND having done nothing this offseason.

Mike

Sure, when TK first mentioned about a vet, I think it makes sense.

But I noted right away that a guy like Cutler will be too expensive, and turned out to be true when Cutler signed that big contract.
There's slim picking with the rest.

I also agreed with taking a QB in this draft; however, I just don't see a clear cut guy I want to build the franchise with.
One of them may work out, but all of them have their own warts.

I'm not one who likes short-term, patch-work solution.
I don't have to worry about my job on the line with the Texans; neither does O'Brien in the near term.

I would rather trade away for as many future picks as possible.
There are several better looking prospects in the next couple of years.

Let the other teams get stuck with this year class.
There won't be as many if them to vie for the current top four of Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Brett Hundley, and possibly Christian Hackenberg (if he comes out.) As a group, these guys will most certainly present a better looking class, unless something goes wrong for them.

If you think Belichik doesn't pay attention to the O-line, think again.
He always paid a lot attention to that unit.

Texn4life
01-12-2014, 01:30 PM
Sure, when TK first mentioned about a vet, I think it makes sense.

But I noted right away that a guy like Cutler will be too expensive, and turned out to be true when Cutler signed that big contract.
There's slim picking with the rest.

I also agreed with taking a QB in this draft; however, I just don't see a clear cut guy I want to build the franchise with.
One of them may work out, but all of them have their own warts.

I'm not one who likes short-term, patch-work solution.
I don't have to worry about my job on the line with the Texans; neither does O'Brien in the near term.

I would rather trade away for as many future picks as possible.
There are several better looking prospects in the next couple of years.

Let the other teams get stuck with this year class.
There won't be as many if them to vie for the current top four of Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Brett Hundley, and possibly Christian Hackenberg (if he comes out.) As a group, these guys will most certainly present a better looking class, unless something goes wrong for them.

If you think Belichik doesn't pay attention to the O-line, think again.
He always paid a lot attention to that unit.

76 I don't know why you keep mentioning Hackenberg as a potential pick next year. He was a true frosh this past season so he won't be eligible for the draft until 2016. The Texans aren't going to try to wait that long to grab a franchise guy.

bayoudreamn
01-12-2014, 05:44 PM
My ideal scenario is at hand. Next football season I'll be retired and watching at my leisure. No more b!tching about late night games (like we'll have any) because they won't matter.

152 days and counting beyoutches. :lol:


Good for you, Thorn! Those days will be gone before you know it. Best Wishes!!

Corrosion
01-12-2014, 06:01 PM
Corrosion, TXMike, TK and the likes are overstating the situations, from what I see.



I just think many are still looking at Keenum thru rose colored glasses ....


I've watched & evaluated on an in depth basis via All-22. The vast majority of passes , including pressures , sacks & turnovers.

To me , the pressures are most telling , especially those that occur early within the scope of an individual play - recognition.

Its obvious we have come to different conclusions ..... we're both entitled to our opinions , I aint gonna knock you for it , just state that I feel differently.

CretorFrigg
01-12-2014, 08:19 PM
I just think many are still looking at Keenum thru rose colored glasses ....


I've watched & evaluated on an in depth basis via All-22. The vast majority of passes , including pressures , sacks & turnovers.

To me , the pressures are most telling , especially those that occur early within the scope of an individual play - recognition.

Its obvious we have come to different conclusions ..... we're both entitled to our opinions , I aint gonna knock you for it , just state that I feel differently.

I agree with this 100%. I don't get the blind support for Keenum. Is it because he's a local UH product? I'm not seeing what everyone else is seeing. I see a guy who crumbles under pressure and can't make the short-intermediate routes to move the chains. I see an undrafted free agent who went undrafted for a good reason.

BullNation4Life
01-12-2014, 08:31 PM
Ideal scenario is this teams takes a KC turnaround and wins 11-12 games, takes the AFC South and 1st round bye...


REALISTIC scenario, well there is 2 I have in mind...

1: Texans draft Bortles #1 overall after months of deliberation and Bortles having an excellent showing at his Pro Day and Combine. they then sign a vet, Matt Cassel for example, and let Brotles sit for a year, learning the ins and outs of O'Brien's offense. Also giving O'Brien 2 off-seasons to build an O-line that isn't gonna get Bortles killed in his 2nd season. Texans go 7-9 and show signs of much improvement, thus Texans fans have hope for the 2015 season...

2: O'Brien trades for Ryan Mallett, signs Cassel as a backup, again they both know O'Brien's offense, and the Texans trade back in the draft and stock pile more picks. If they find someone desperate enough, Cleveland for example, they get Cleveland's #1 pick next year, Cleveland takes a QB and thrust them into starting, thus making Cleveland go 4-12 and giving the Texans a Top 4 pick for the 2015 NFL Draft on top of their own Top 15 pick.

Texans use other draft picks this year to fill holes after a player purge before June 1st and go 7-9 with the weak schedule. Mallett slings the ball around for 3780 yards, 23 TDs and 9 INTs, Foster looks like Foster of old, AJ FINALLY has a double digit TD year, defense looks very promising and Texans fans have hope restored for 2015 season....


I, for one, would be happy with either scenario...

Corrosion
01-12-2014, 08:37 PM
Ideal scenario is this teams takes a KC turnaround and wins 11-12 games, takes the AFC South and 1st round bye...


REALISTIC scenario, well there is 2 I have in mind...

1: Texans draft Bortles #1 overall after months of deliberation and Bortles having an excellent showing at his Pro Day and Combine. they then sign a vet, Matt Cassel for example, and let Brotles sit for a year, learning the ins and outs of O'Brien's offense. Also giving O'Brien 2 off-seasons to build an O-line that isn't gonna get Bortles killed in his 2nd season. Texans go 7-9 and show signs of much improvement, thus Texans fans have hope for the 2015 season...

2: O'Brien trades for Ryan Mallett, signs Cassel as a backup, again they both know O'Brien's offense, and the Texans trade back in the draft and stock pile more picks. If they find someone desperate enough, Cleveland for example, they get Cleveland's #1 pick next year, Cleveland takes a QB and thrust them into starting, thus making Cleveland go 4-12 and giving the Texans a Top 4 pick for the 2015 NFL Draft on top of their own Top 15 pick.

Texans use other draft picks this year to fill holes after a player purge before June 1st and go 7-9 with the weak schedule. Mallett slings the ball around for 3780 yards, 23 TDs and 9 INTs, Foster looks like Foster of old and Texans fans have hope restored for 2015 season....


I, for one, would be happy with either scenario...


The Mallet scenario reminds me too much of the Matt Schaub acquisition .... I haven't watched a whole lot of Mallett since he went to NE and find it difficult to make an informed decision .... but the whole scenario reeks of mediocrity.

Gamble & win with one of these QB's and the franchise is set at the position for a decade , gamble & lose .... we'll do it all again in a couple years. I'd rather gamble than settle for mediocrity.

I'd take my chances with one of the top three ....

Marshall
01-12-2014, 08:46 PM
I got banned for quoting a moderator's post and then using his favorite words "Don't discuss non-Texans in the Bullpen." He discusses non-Texan in the Bullpen, but I was banned for "moderator abuse" for saying what he said every day. LOL. This board is 100x better.

Yep. The Mods got a chip on their shoulders for being called out for their hypocrisy and went on a ban binge. Just as well. The only posters left are a very small click of unithought along with those who left on their own. May it die in the vine as it should.

Marshall
01-12-2014, 08:58 PM
Lol

Thread drift is unavoidable.


Ideal Scenario:

We get a stud QB and win the Super Bowl over the Dallas Cowboys!

Once again we're at the heart of the discussion. Are there ANY QBs in this draft which will win a SB? Is the depth simply a dozen players who make the NFL as backups and Starters who can't get to the playoffs, much less deep in them. Is there a STUD QB? The answer to this question by the front office will determine whether we trade out or keep our 1-1.

I'm now convinced that TB is the best of the QBs and Manzeil is the most Dynamic. But is either going to make it through the season? I was surprised when Luck made it and surprised when RG3 did not. How would I know? I'll leave that guesswork up to the pros and know their guess is only slightly better than a throw of the dice.

Marshall
01-12-2014, 09:04 PM
I don`t understand the logic of waiting for our QB till next season. I don`t think McNair or O`Brien will be happy with a 3 win season or worse. Yet, if we finish any better, we probably have no chance at a top 3 pick. Now if the QBs in next years draft are as good as the people who want us to wait think are, then we have no real chance to get them.

Of course, we might get one with giving up on basically our whole draft and "overpaying" heavily for him. But even then, there is no guarantee that QB actually lives up to his projected potential.

Now this year we can get the best QB of this class basically for free, because we already own the first pick. Of course, we might get a great offer for that pick, but if we are at all comfortable with any of the QBs available I believe you have to take him - because we might not have a chance to get another top rated QB in the near future.

Ideal scenario? We draft a QB and he fulfills his potential.

Ideal scenario. We draft a QB who exceeds all expectations, every draft pick becomes best at their position and every injured player returns and surpasses their best efforts from the past.

Alternative Ideal scenario is that we trade down while picking up first round picks for next year and seconds this year. This year we season the rookies and next season we draft the best QB in twenty years with one of the draft picks we picked up this year.

Marshall
01-12-2014, 09:11 PM
Bill - coach

Bob -owner


that was not too hard was it? same amt of letters in Bill and BOB (Bill O'Brien)

Did you have trouble with higher math - like counting to four?

Corrosion
01-12-2014, 09:18 PM
next season we draft the best QB in twenty years with one of the draft picks we picked up this year.

Who is this 20 year talent you are talking about ?! Right now , the current crop looks better than next years to me.

Marshall
01-12-2014, 09:25 PM
This was predictable; I was expecting it. The bottom line is the number of reps he was given to absorb the complexity of the play calling and the speed of the game. The practice squad is the "scout" team. He had little time with the Texans' scheme. The half season on the 53 man roster - Schaub takes the majority of reps each week, TJ had some and Case had the remaining. Training camp was the majority of his opportunity to "learn". These two years, the film room was the basis for his schooling in the game, but you need reps. What is it teams have, three days a week in full pads? So Case had maybe a total of 24 practices, each week dealing with a new defensive.
In my scenario I mentioned acquiring a veteran FA QB. But drafting a QB in the first round, there will no competition.

Given his circumstances, the game hadn't yet "slowed down" for Case.

The best FA vet will probably be Schaub. I'm not opposed to it. Let's see if coaching makes the difference. Of course, we still cut him and sign him as a Veteran. Even if we fail to free up money this season, we need the money for 2015.

Marshall
01-12-2014, 09:32 PM
Who is this 20 year talent you are talking about ?! Right now , the current crop looks better than next years to me.

I don't know. Wait for twenty years and I'll let you know.

kiwitexansfan
01-12-2014, 09:34 PM
Are there ANY QBs in this draft which will win a SB?

The following is a list of all non-Hall of Fame QBs to make start in the Superbowl.

There is some pretty low hanging fruit in this lot....

Daryle Lamonica
Earl Morrall
Joe Kapp
Craig Morton
Bill Kilmer
Ken Stabler
Vince Ferragamo
Jim Plunkett
Ron Jaworski
Ken Anderson
Joe Theismann
David Woodley
Jim McMahon
Tony Eason
Phil Simms
Doug Williams
Boomer Esiason
Jeff Hostetler
Mark Rypien
Stan Humphries
Neil O'Donnell
Brett Favre
Drew Bledsoe
Chris Chandler
Kurt Warner
Steve McNair
Trent Dilfer
Kerry Collins
Tom Brady
Brad Johnson
Rich Gannon
Jake Delhomme
Donovan McNabb
Ben Roethlisberger
Matt Hasselbeck
Peyton Manning
Rex Grossman
Eli Manning
Drew Brees
Aaron Rodgers
Eli Manning
Joe Flacco
Colin Kaepernick

ObsiWan
01-13-2014, 01:06 PM
Hmmm... Ideal Scenario...??
Ignore the numbers because I want everything on this "wishlist" to occur.


Romeo Crennel comes in and makes this a top-three defense in fewest points allowed and most turnovers produced. ...I could care less about yards.
A.J. stays healthy all season long and finally gets double-digit TDs.
Brian Cushing, Arian Foster, Danieal Manning, Johnathan Joesph, and Garrett Graham, and Owen Daniels all come back to full strength and play at pro bowl levels of performance. ...for the next 4-5 years (yeah, I'm greedy. Sue me.)
Duane Brown returns to all pro form. And in a related note, we find a RT that performs at or near his level (when he wasn't nicked up) of performance.
Some combination of A.J., Posey, D. Hopkins, Keyshawn Martin, and LeStar Jean produce a 3000-yd, 35 TD receiving corps. Pick any three guys (well okay, A.J. and any two other guys. :D )
We sweep Indy and Tennessee (Hell, we go 6-0 in the division) and make the AFC CG.
If all the above occurs as I wish it, then we cannot help but make the playoffs.

Notice that I didn't mention who plays QB.
That's because I don't care who starts as long as he effectively distributes the ball to our playmakers and minimizes turnovers. With a nod to our new coach, it's about what the team accomplishes. Individual names or favorate players are unimportant as long as the team succeeds. I mentioned the guys that I did because they have shown the talent to be studs once upon a time and when healthy can be again. If those particular guys get replaced, the accomplishments desired by my scenario do not change; only the names/numbers on the jerseys. Okay, off :soapbox:

Also, I didn't mention the draft. I don't follow college ball sufficiently to have any "mock draft preferences". There are plenty of posters who do that much more thoroughly than I could. I defer to their research-based opinions.

MEGA SWATT
01-13-2014, 01:19 PM
Bill - coach

Bob -owner


that was not too hard was it? "NEARLY" same amt of letters in Bill and BOB (Bill O'Brien)

fixed for you.

Did you have trouble with higher math - like counting to four?

Either I had a brain-fart or I left out "nearly" the same amt of letters. 3 or 4 characters does not necessitate a BOB designation--that was my point. His first name is short enough. It must be nice to never make a mistake or omission. I want to be more like you -minus the arrogance!


I was a terrible father. My oldest is 6'7", about 300, strong as an ox and has HUGE hands, like 10 1/2 - 11 inches. But he's just a fireman/paramedic because I didn't insist he play QB. His Sargent wants him around because only my son could pick him up with one arm and carry him out of a burning building if required.

Sorry son.


I am thinking that you never won a spelling bee - "Sergeant"

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2284488&postcount=1006

By the way Sir, when I quoted you the first time and stated "that was not too hard was it," I was simply saying that it is very easy to say "Bill." Not sure why we need BOB. That is all. Sorry if it came across as rude. Yes, looking up a mistake in a previous post is juvenile, but I am a bit angry right now.

TheMatrix31
01-13-2014, 01:29 PM
Any QB can win a Super Bowl if they're lucky enough to be in a great situation, surrounded by proper coaching, offensive line protection, patience, and weapons. Oh, and a defense to mask their deficiencies.

I don't like the idea of saying someone can or can't win a Super Bowl. It's all a matter of circumstance.

Marshall
01-13-2014, 05:16 PM
fixed for you.



Either I had a brain-fart or I left out "nearly" the same amt of letters. 3 or 4 characters does not necessitate a BOB designation--that was my point. His first name is short enough. It must be nice to never make a mistake or omission. I want to be more like you -minus the arrogance!





I am thinking that you never won a spelling bee - "Sergeant"
Nope. Spent too much time watching Dick Sargent and Dick York play opposite Elizabeth Montgomery.
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2284488&postcount=1006

By the way Sir, when I quoted you the first time and stated "that was not too hard was it," I was simply saying that it is very easy to say "Bill." Not sure why we need BOB. That is all. Sorry if it came across as rude. Yes, looking up a mistake in a previous post is juvenile, but I am a bit angry right now.
Nope. Spent too much time watching Dick Sargent and Dick York play opposite Elizabeth Montgomery.

BTW I get angry lot, but am usually over it before I even finish my post. I'm cool if you are.

Number19
01-13-2014, 07:05 PM
I agree with this 100%. I don't get the blind support for Keenum. Is it because he's a local UH product? I'm not seeing what everyone else is seeing. I see a guy who crumbles under pressure and can't make the short-intermediate routes to move the chains. I see an undrafted free agent who went undrafted for a good reason.
Support for Keenum is not blind. It comes from an understanding that the NFL QB position is a difficult position to master and Case has had very limited reps to gain the necessary experience to where the game begins to slow down for him. It's simply a case of believing that the book is not closed on this player. Case has the physical ability; his brain simply has to catch up to the demands of the pro level of play and most new QB's are given, and take, more than a half season for this development.

In my particular case, I simply stated that O'Brien would evaluate Keenum's play from game film and make a decision on whether he has the potential to develop; and,from a draft prospective, a best case scenario would be a positive evaluation.

(edit) I would add that the film on Keenum would include the 2013 pre-season and this graded out very positively.

Corrosion
01-13-2014, 08:25 PM
Support for Keenum is not blind. It comes from an understanding that the NFL QB position is a difficult position to master and Case has had very limited reps to gain the necessary experience to where the game begins to slow down for him. It's simply a case of believing that the book is not closed on this player. Case has the physical ability; his brain simply has to catch up to the demands of the pro level of play and most new QB's are given, and take, more than a half season for this development.

In my particular case, I simply stated that O'Brien would evaluate Keenum's play from game film and make a decision on whether he has the potential to develop; and,from a draft prospective, a best case scenario would be a positive evaluation.

(edit) I would add that the film on Keenum would include the 2013 pre-season and this graded out very positively.

Can he do that and do we have the time to wait around for however long that may take to occur - if ever ???


I doubt he makes the 53 man roster in the coming season .... as his most redeeming quality right now is that he costs next to nothing in terms of NFL QB's.

Texan_Bill
01-13-2014, 08:39 PM
Can he do that and do we have the time to wait around for however long that may take to occur - if ever ???


I doubt he makes the 53 man roster in the coming season .... as his most redeeming quality right now is that he costs next to nothing in terms of NFL QB's.

Ideal scenario???

Rob buys a couple bottles of Johnny Blue and we watch the draft!!

We'll either be really happy, or we'll be punching mellon-headed efferz in the head!!

Norg
01-13-2014, 08:42 PM
we win more then 5 games !!!! LOL

Texan_Bill
01-13-2014, 08:46 PM
we win more then 5 games !!!! LOL

10 games...

Too much talent still left on this team.


*EDIT*

That is if a handful of guys can make it thru a season, i.e. Brian Cushing, Arian Foster (because Ben Tate is gone), Johnathan aka JJO, Daniel Manning, Owen Daniel, etc., etc...

Corrosion
01-13-2014, 09:02 PM
Ideal scenario???

Rob buys a couple bottles of Johnny Blue and we watch the draft!!

We'll either be really happy, or we'll be punching mellon-headed efferz in the head!!

We better be really happy ... cause my hand is still in bad shape from the last melonhead two surgeries later. I'll hold'em , you do the punching.

MEGA SWATT
01-13-2014, 09:17 PM
Nope. Spent too much time watching Dick Sargent and Dick York play opposite Elizabeth Montgomery.

BTW I get angry lot, but am usually over it before I even finish my post. I'm cool if you are.

I'm cool. Thanks. I should not let such things get to me.

btw, it should be spelled like you spelled it...just flows better. As long as Bill or BOB wins, I don't care what you call him!

:fans:

Number19
01-13-2014, 09:24 PM
Can he do that and do we have the time to wait around for however long that may take to occur - if ever ???That is a strange question to write, given the previous posts. My "ideal scenario" lays out a one year evaluation process, comprised of two stages, the first being a film evaluation by our new coaching staff. If the results of this are negative, we draft a QB in this year's draft. If positive, then the evaluation process continues during OTA's, training camp and this next season. At any point if progress proves unsatisfactory, then we start the veteran FA QB we sign. By the end of this next season, one year, the final decision is made whether we need to draft a 1st round QB in the 2015 draft.

This is hardly equivalent to "however long that may take to occur - if ever".

I don't know who "we" are, but yes, O'Brien signed a 5 year contract, so yes he has time to pursue this course of action, if he so chooses.

And it must be taken into account that this course of action is taken to acquire additional draft picks with which to strengthen our team's overall talent, this season. It also must be taken into account that next year's QB talent is considered by many to be superior to this year's QB class.

Number19
01-13-2014, 09:31 PM
10 games...

Too much talent still left on this team.


*EDIT*

That is if a handful of guys can make it thru a season, i.e. Brian Cushing, Arian Foster (because Ben Tate is gone), Johnathan aka JJO, Daniel Manning, Owen Daniel, etc., etc...It's not at all uncommon for a team in our situation to rebound the following year with a winning season, given the scheduling. It also is not uncommon for the team to then fall back to the middle of the pack, with the tougher schedule following a winning season. Tampa Bay went 3-13 in '09, 10-6 in '10 and then fell back to 4-12 in '11.

Norg
01-13-2014, 09:43 PM
10 games...

Too much talent still left on this team.


*EDIT*

That is if a handful of guys can make it thru a season, i.e. Brian Cushing, Arian Foster (because Ben Tate is gone), Johnathan aka JJO, Daniel Manning, Owen Daniel, etc., etc...


Huh LOL u better get rdy for dis purge I wouldn't be surprised if

Foster GONE

Tate GONE

J JO GONE

MANNING GONE

OD GONE

the only one they may keep his manning but his injury factor could put even him on the hot seat OD is has good has gone

Number19
01-13-2014, 09:49 PM
...OD GONE...OD is has good has goneI've read O'Brien really likes to use TE's in his offensive scheme. Unless it is absolutely necessary for financial reasons, it's unlikely our best receiving TE will be let loose.

Corrosion
01-13-2014, 11:10 PM
That is a strange question to write, given the previous posts. My "ideal scenario" lays out a one year evaluation process, comprised of two stages, the first being a film evaluation by our new coaching staff. If the results of this are negative, we draft a QB in this year's draft. If positive, then the evaluation process continues during OTA's, training camp and this next season. At any point if progress proves unsatisfactory, then we start the veteran FA QB we sign. By the end of this next season, one year, the final decision is made whether we need to draft a 1st round QB in the 2015 draft.

This is hardly equivalent to "however long that may take to occur - if ever".

I don't know who "we" are, but yes, O'Brien signed a 5 year contract, so yes he has time to pursue this course of action, if he so chooses.

And it must be taken into account that this course of action is taken to acquire additional draft picks with which to strengthen our team's overall talent, this season. It also must be taken into account that next year's QB talent is considered by many to be superior to this year's QB class.

I've seen enough to recognize poor QB play .... The film is there for Obrien & his staff to see , we don't need to piss away this season messing around with Keenum .... Nor do we need to piss away next season waiting for a rookie to develop.
You have the #1 pick and your choice of the top QB prospects , make the right decision now , develop that QB this year and lets start winning some damn football games .... There are at least 10 QB's in this draft I'd rather have than Keenum. (Bridgewater , Bortles , Manziel , Mettenberger , Carr , Murray , McCarron , Brett Smith , Fales , Logan Thomas )

Texanmike02
01-13-2014, 11:14 PM
That is a strange question to write, given the previous posts. My "ideal scenario" lays out a one year evaluation process, comprised of two stages, the first being a film evaluation by our new coaching staff. If the results of this are negative, we draft a QB in this year's draft. If positive, then the evaluation process continues during OTA's, training camp and this next season. At any point if progress proves unsatisfactory, then we start the veteran FA QB we sign. By the end of this next season, one year, the final decision is made whether we need to draft a 1st round QB in the 2015 draft..

If your ideal scenario involves a year long evaluation period then your coach and your scenario suck. Teams like the Browns and Jaguars need a year to evaluate their talent. That is why they are terrible at drafting because the other 30 teams are able to evaluate and extrapolate from college to the NFL. If your coach needs to "evaluate" people already on the team for a year then you will never have any success because you will always figure out that someone can play a year too late.

Mike

DBCooper
01-14-2014, 10:11 AM
If your ideal scenario involves a year long evaluation period then your coach and your scenario suck. Teams like the Browns and Jaguars need a year to evaluate their talent. That is why they are terrible at drafting because the other 30 teams are able to evaluate and extrapolate from college to the NFL. If your coach needs to "evaluate" people already on the team for a year then you will never have any success because you will always figure out that someone can play a year too late.

Mike

Especially since McNair wants/expects to win NOW.

I see them making big moves via trade for a solid starter now if they don't like any of the QB's in the draft.

Waiting and evaluating is not an option.

Thorn
01-14-2014, 12:18 PM
Re: Ideal Scenarios

Every month or so we need one of the players to get a hot U of H chick pregnant. We can raise our own crop of players that way and have plenty of moralistic threads to participate in. :)

2slik4u
01-14-2014, 02:22 PM
If your ideal scenario involves a year long evaluation period then your coach and your scenario suck. Teams like the Browns and Jaguars need a year to evaluate their talent. That is why they are terrible at drafting because the other 30 teams are able to evaluate and extrapolate from college to the NFL. If your coach needs to "evaluate" people already on the team for a year then you will never have any success because you will always figure out that someone can play a year too late.

Mike

Completely agree.

Number19
01-14-2014, 06:05 PM
I will bet a dollar, or a million dollars, the Texan's new coaching staff will be evaluating every player on the squad, between now and the draft. I will also emphatically state that every team - every HC and every GM - evaluates, at the end of a season, every player, and that player's performance over the past season.

Now, for those of you who are having a hard time at reading comprehension, I will state once more, O'Brien will be making his decision on the course of action he will take in the draft, on the evaluation process between now and the draft.

O'Brien's decision will be to determine whether Keenum, or Tate for that matter, is capable of being the starter this next season. This decision will influence our draft. The ongoing evaluation during the season and the evaluation at the conclusion of the season will be to determine if Keenum has met expectations and will determine the need to draft a QB in the 2015 draft.

Let me also explain, there seems to be need for this explanation, that head coaches evaluate and grade each player's performance on Monday, after each Sunday game. So O'Brien's evaluation of Keenum throughout the season is to be expected and is not a knock on his competency or the front office's.

ObsiWan
01-14-2014, 06:41 PM
Every month or so we need one of the players to get a hot U of H chick pregnant. We can raise our own crop of players that way and have plenty of moralistic threads to participate in. :)

Now you just quit :stirpot:

quit it right now, Mister...

:foottap:

DBCooper
01-14-2014, 06:42 PM
I will bet a dollar, or a million dollars, the Texan's new coaching staff will be evaluating every player on the squad, between now and the draft. I will also emphatically state that every team - every HC and every GM - evaluates, at the end of a season, every player, and that player's performance over the past season.

Now, for those of you who are having a hard time at reading comprehension, I will state once more, O'Brien will be making his decision on the course of action he will take in the draft, on the evaluation process between now and the draft.

O'Brien's decision will be to determine whether Keenum, or Tate for that matter, is capable of being the starter this next season. This decision will influence our draft. The ongoing evaluation during the season and the evaluation at the conclusion of the season will be to determine if Keenum has met expectations and will determine the need to draft a QB in the 2015 draft.

Let me also explain, there seems to be need for this explanation, that head coaches evaluate and grade each player's performance on Monday, after each Sunday game. So O'Brien's evaluation of Keenum throughout the season is to be expected and is not a knock on his competency or the front office's.

Wow, so confrontational for such a non conversation.

Of course he's going to evaluate every player on the roster.

And he will find the ones that we all know already suck.

Number19
01-14-2014, 07:09 PM
Wow, so confrontational for such a non conversation.

Of course he's going to evaluate every player on the roster.

And he will find the ones that we all know already suck.Maybe, that's a matter of opinion. But several posters made some really, really stupid comments misquoting/misunderstanding what I was saying. I normally don't like responding, but I decided to do so this time. In all my posts, I've had two sentences which were slightly confrontational.

Ted Johnson just said on 610 that in his experience playing for and understanding Crennel's defensive scheme, he didn't think the current personnel on the team matched up very well with what the defense required. He felt the defense needed to be addressed through free agency and the draft. The problem of course is that we can't afford to spend a ton of dollars for high priced veterans; and if we draft a QB with 1-1, we don't have enough draft choices to upgrade all our needs.

When asked in this morning's interview about the QB position, O'Brien responded he'd have to evaluate what we already had on the team and evaluate what was available in the draft. Not said, but implied, is that he'd be making his decisions based on his evaluations.

This is precisely what I've been saying in my "ideal scenario", and what a few others were commenting, negatively, against.

DBCooper
01-14-2014, 07:15 PM
Maybe, that's a matter of opinion. But several posters made some really, really stupid comments misquoting/misunderstanding what I was saying. I normally don't like responding, but I decided to do so this time. In all my posts, I've had two sentences which were slightly confrontational.

Ted Johnson just said on 610 that in his experience playing for and understanding Crennel's defensive scheme, he didn't think the current personnel on the team matched up very well with what the defense required. He felt the defense needed to be addressed through free agency and the draft. The problem of course is that we can't afford to spend a ton of dollars for high priced veterans; and if we draft a QB with 1-1, we don't have enough draft choices to upgrade all our needs.

When asked in this morning's interview about the QB position, O'Brien responded he'd have to evaluate what we already had on the team and evaluate what was available in the draft. Not said, but implied is that he'd be making his decisions based on his evaluations.

This is precisely what I've been saying in my "ideal scenario", and what a few others were commenting, negatively, against.

Man, I'll bet you're the smartest guy in your bathroom mirror.

This is a wish list.

My ideal scenario is that my wife brings home Jennifer Aniston and let's me join them for some bedroom gymnastics!

But, McNair hired O'Brien to win now.

He's not doing that with any of the QB's on this current roster.

May be stupid (in your all knowing eyes), but that's my opinion.

Corrosion
01-14-2014, 07:34 PM
Maybe, that's a matter of opinion. But several posters made some really, really stupid comments misquoting/misunderstanding what I was saying. I normally don't like responding, but I decided to do so this time. In all my posts, I've had two sentences which were slightly confrontational.

Ted Johnson just said on 610 that in his experience playing for and understanding Crennel's defensive scheme, he didn't think the current personnel on the team matched up very well with what the defense required. He felt the defense needed to be addressed through free agency and the draft. The problem of course is that we can't afford to spend a ton of dollars for high priced veterans; and if we draft a QB with 1-1, we don't have enough draft choices to upgrade all our needs.

When asked in this morning's interview about the QB position, O'Brien responded he'd have to evaluate what we already had on the team and evaluate what was available in the draft. Not said, but implied is that he'd be making his decisions based on his evaluations.

This is precisely what I've been saying in my "ideal scenario", and what a few others were commenting, negatively, against.

No one disagrees with the fact that Obrien will evaluate every player on the roster.

What we disagree with is your ideal scenario of pissing away another year with Keenum.

There are more holes in the roster than there are draft picks , this , despite McNair's belief that it is , isn't a quick fix.


Yes , the defense needs a couple holes filled one way or another. Ninja , Earl Mitchell and Tate being FA's probably the three most obvious.

Drafting a QB early doesn't mean you cant fix the majority of those holes via the draft. Here , let me show you:


Round 1 - Your QB of choice. Pick one , any one.
Round 2 - Trent Murphy. - DE Stanford
Round 3 - JaWuan James - OT Tennessee
Round 4 - Arthur Lynch - TE Georgia
Round 5 - Ryan Carrethers - DT Arkansas State
Round 6 - Andrew Jackson - ILB Western Kentucky
Round 7 - De'Anthony Thomas - RB Oregon


That fills most of the problem positions .... other than maybe OG (Wade Smith??) , OLB and Safety.

Corrosion
01-14-2014, 07:36 PM
He's not doing that with any of the QB's on this current roster.



You are crazy man , we gotta piss away another full season to find out if Keenum is an NFL QB.

DBCooper
01-14-2014, 07:46 PM
You are crazy man , we gotta piss away another full season to find out if Keenum is an NFL QB.

Oh, I'm crazy all right.

steelbtexan
01-14-2014, 08:20 PM
No one disagrees with the fact that Obrien will evaluate every player on the roster.

What we disagree with is your ideal scenario of pissing away another year with Keenum.

There are more holes in the roster than there are draft picks , this , despite McNair's belief that it is , isn't a quick fix.


Yes , the defense needs a couple holes filled one way or another. Ninja , Earl Mitchell and Tate being FA's probably the three most obvious.

Drafting a QB early doesn't mean you cant fix the majority of those holes via the draft. Here , let me show you:


Round 1 - Your QB of choice. Pick one , any one.
Round 2 - Trent Murphy. - DE Stanford
Round 3 - JaWuan James - OT Tennessee
Round 4 - Arthur Lynch - TE Georgia
Round 5 - Ryan Carrethers - DT Arkansas State
Round 6 - Andrew Jackson - ILB Western Kentucky
Round 7 - De'Anthony Thomas - RB Oregon


That fills most of the problem positions .... other than maybe OG (Wade Smith??) , OLB and Safety.

Great mock, I only wish Rick was as good as you are.

Somewhere along the 4/5th rd I hope they pick a nickel CB. McCain gives me heartburn.

Number19
01-14-2014, 08:30 PM
No one disagrees with the fact that Obrien will evaluate every player on the roster.

What we disagree with is your ideal scenario of pissing away another year with Keenum.

There are more holes in the roster than there are draft picks , this , despite McNair's belief that it is , isn't a quick fix.


Yes , the defense needs a couple holes filled one way or another. Ninja , Earl Mitchell and Tate being FA's probably the three most obvious.

Drafting a QB early doesn't mean you cant fix the majority of those holes via the draft. Here , let me show you:


Round 1 - Your QB of choice. Pick one , any one.
Round 2 - Trent Murphy. - DE Stanford
Round 3 - JaWuan James - OT Tennessee
Round 4 - Arthur Lynch - TE Georgia
Round 5 - Ryan Carrethers - DT Arkansas State
Round 6 - Andrew Jackson - ILB Western Kentucky
Round 7 - De'Anthony Thomas - RB Oregon


That fills most of the problem positions .... other than maybe OG (Wade Smith??) , OLB and Safety.Disagreeing with my scenario is not an issue. A reasoned response like your latest is not an issue. It's the unreasoned responses that gets my goat.

(I thought about giving some examples, but I've changed my mind. I think most readers know what I'm referring to.)

My "ideal scenario" is exactly that, my idea of an "ideal". I think it more likely we trade back for extra picks and then the question becomes, where do we draft a QB.

In an early post, I stated that I only count the first three rounds as representing "quality" picks - and maybe round 4. Players taken in rounds 5 thru 7 seldom make an impact, much less makes an impact their first year, although occasionally you do hit the jackpot. But by this definition, you've addressed our defensive deficiencies with only one player, Trent Murphy. Now, of course, some spots will be addressed with a FA, but still, this is basically going into next season with our current starters and hoping the coaches will be able to make something good happen. But if Thompson, who's played under Crennel, knows what he's talking about, then we may be defensively weak and this doesn't bode well for a significant turn around.

The whole basis of my "ideal scenario" is not to have tunnel vision about the QB position and to build toward two/three years down the road.

McNair wants to "win now", but I hardly think he expects a playoff team next year. As a self made billionaire, I think he knows how to evaluate realistic expectations. I do think he expects the team to be above .500.

Now, taking into consideration that this is an "ideal" scenario, if O'Brien thinks he can win with Keenum, I don't think we will "piss away" next season. If you do think this will be the case, then you are saying you have a very low opinion on O'Brien's decision making and must think we made the wrong decision choosing him as our coach. Now, you might legitimately argue that there is no way that O'Brien will come to this decision, but you can't argue against my "ideal scenario" without also taking a negative position against O'Brien under these circumstances.

Corrosion
01-14-2014, 08:38 PM
Great mock, I only wish Rick was as good as you are.

Somewhere along the 4/5th rd I hope they pick a nickel CB. McCain gives me heartburn.

Questionable that Jackson & Thomas last that long .... there are other names you could plug in replacing them at their respective positions.


They will likely have one comp pick in the 5th round. How bout Florida Sr CB Jaylen Watkins with that comp pick and Maine Sr CB Kendall James as an UDFA.

Marshall
02-07-2014, 04:15 PM
OK! The entire 2014 Draft by the Texans totals 4041 TVP (trade value points):
A 2015 First round pick (usually discounted to the value of a 2014 second) using the 16th pick as average would be 420 TVP.

While an unrealistic fantasy trade ensues, would you do it?

9 - 2015 First round picks @ 420 TVP = 3780 TVP
3-1 2014 pick at 265 TVP
Total = 4045 TVP

I worked out the scenario for:
Rams
Jaguars
Browns
Raiders
Falcons
Buccaneers

but the Vikings, Bills and Lions requires a little more manipulation to trade our 2014 (by this time) #1-7 for future #1s.

Along with our own #1, we would have 10 first round picks in 2015.

Thoughts?

badboy
02-07-2014, 04:32 PM
OK! The entire 2014 Draft by the Texans totals 4041 TVP (trade value points):
A 2015 First round pick (usually discounted to the value of a 2014 second) using the 16th pick as average would be 420 TVP.

While an unrealistic fantasy trade ensues, would you do it?

9 - 2015 First round picks @ 420 TVP = 3780 TVP
3-1 2014 pick at 265 TVP
Total = 4045 TVP

I worked out the scenario for:
Rams
Jaguars
Browns
Raiders
Falcons
Buccaneers

but the Vikings, Bills and Lions requires a little more manipulation to trade our 2014 (by this time) #1-7 for future #1s.

Along with our own #1, we would have 10 first round picks in 2015.

Thoughts?to clarify, we only have the ten picks & nothing later rounds? Also, are any future years impacted? edit: I think it helps knowing which picks we have in 2014 as any 2015 selection will place another year before player is probably ready.

Marshall
02-07-2014, 06:18 PM
to clarify, we only have the ten picks & nothing later rounds? Also, are any future years impacted? edit: I think it helps knowing which picks we have in 2014 as any 2015 selection will place another year before player is probably ready.

We essentially get 9 2015 first round picks and keep our 3-65 and comp picks in 2014. We would have to use the IR from 2013, FAs and UFAs in 2014.

But what a draft next year! 9 additional 1sts to go along with our complete 2015 draft picks.

Seegara
02-07-2014, 07:24 PM
One question going around the board is: do we draft a QB with our top pick
You bet we do.
or do we trade down, picking up a QB lower in the draft, in rounds two or three? I offer the suggestion that we wait until 2015 to pick up our QB of the future.
We won't have the opportunity to draft a top future QB in 2015 unless we tank 2014.
5) We end up with two #1's and two high #2's this year and an extra #1 next year.
That would be nice—if we could do it. But it's only a dream.

badboy
02-07-2014, 07:36 PM
We essentially get 9 2015 first round picks and keep our 3-65 and comp picks in 2014. We would have to use the IR from 2013, FAs and UFAs in 2014.

But what a draft next year! 9 additional 1sts to go along with our complete 2015 draft picks.It is easy to see 10 total first rounders in '15 but no way to be sure who will be there, Winston could return again to school. We would have ammo to buy what we want IF the higher rated team wants to trade down. Let's say Oakland and Tampa draft Mariota & Winston 1&2 and Jets select Petty & Hundley goes that same top 10-12 leaving us with what? Injuries also can negatively screw up a plan as well as some just plateauing and not being what was expected. Can we just assume a top ten finish?

I think I'd rather do trades achieving at least one top ten next draft and either Browns' #26 or a first and second now and in 2015 with maybe Oakland. We can do a trade with Cleveland if we can just make them willing to do more than nibble the hook. Josh Gordon is still sitting there and could be part of a deal.

badboy
02-07-2014, 07:38 PM
You bet we do.

We won't have the opportunity to draft a top future QB in 2015 unless we tank 2014.

That would be nice—if we could do it. But it's only a dream.
remember when signing FA Ed Reed was an impossible dream?

Number19
02-07-2014, 08:31 PM
That would be nice—if we could do it. But it's only a dream.This is only possible if we manage a trade with Cleveland. Current speculation has them looking hard at acquiring Washington's backup QB Kirk Cousins. But the rumor is that they are also "enamored" with Manziel.

Talk on the radio this evening is that around the league, Manziel is rising in estimation and may end up as the number one ranked QB.

So if Cleveland fails to sign Cousins, and if they really target Manziel as their man, then a trade may be possible.

badboy
02-07-2014, 08:46 PM
This is only possible if we manage a trade with Cleveland. Current speculation has them looking hard at acquiring Washington's backup QB Kirk Cousins. But the rumor is that they are also "enamored" with Manziel.

Talk on the radio this evening is that around the league, Manziel is rising in estimation and may end up as the number one ranked QB.

So if Cleveland fails to sign Cousins, and if they really target Manziel as their man, then a trade may be possible.I think Cleveland needs the "pizzazz" of a Manziel and why I am basing my thoughts on a successful trade with them. They missed on RG3 and we have seen the debacle of trying to convince a coach to sign up. To me the question is does the owner want to stop being the laughing stock of the NFL? If we are fortunate, we could catch Cleveland in a perfect storm and get a very good deal or at least a decent deal if not all I want.

steelbtexan
02-07-2014, 08:52 PM
Ideal scenario for me

Sign Brian Orakpo in FA with the $$$$ saved by cutting Schaub/OD/Newton/Manning.

Rd.1 Clowney
Rd.2 Moses
Rd.3 Brett Smith and he becomes what I think he can become.
Rd.4 Watkins
Rd.5 Allen
Rd.5 Andrews
Rd.6 Sunseri
Rd.7 Spencer Long
Rd.7 Najavar

Defense

Watt----Allen----Clowney

Orakpo-----Cushing------Reed------Mercilus

KJ------Swearinger--------Sunseri-----JoJo ------ Nickle CB/S Watkins

That's a playoff ready defense, pass rush? We got a pass rush Houston.


Offense
Brown-----Long------Myers------Brooks--------Moses Swing OT/OG/C Harris/Jones
------------------------Smith-----------------------------
Foster-------DJ Johnson--------Andrews------

Griffin------Graham-------Najavar

AJ-------Posey-----------Hopkins-------Cruse------Martin

That's a long time playoff team.

bah007
02-07-2014, 08:58 PM
I think Cleveland needs the "pizzazz" of a Manziel and why I am basing my thoughts on a successful trade with them. They missed on RG3 and we have seen the debacle of trying to convince a coach to sign up. To me the question is does the owner want to stop being the laughing stock of the NFL? If we are fortunate, we could catch Cleveland in a perfect storm and get a very good deal or at least a decent deal if not all I want.

Drafting a player for his "pizzazz" sure wouldn't help him there.

But, I also hope we are fortunate in this regard. If we don't like our options at #1 then a trade down would be very nice.

Number19
02-07-2014, 09:05 PM
I think Cleveland needs the "pizzazz" of a Manziel and why I am basing my thoughts on a successful trade with them. They missed on RG3 and we have seen the debacle of trying to convince a coach to sign up. To me the question is does the owner want to stop being the laughing stock of the NFL? If we are fortunate, we could catch Cleveland in a perfect storm and get a very good deal or at least a decent deal if not all I want.Kyle Shanahan is the new offensive coordinator in Cleveland. Manziel would be a good fit for his offense.

badboy
02-07-2014, 09:11 PM
Kyle Shanahan is the new offensive coordinator in Cleveland. Manziel would be a good fit for his offense.we think alike. Wasn't that long ago that folks were laughing at my mock with trade with Cleveland. More coming along now.

bah007
02-07-2014, 09:14 PM
...I offer the suggestion that we wait until 2015 to pick up our QB of the future...

Not picking on you 19, just quoting this because I saw it mentioned in this thread. This is something I've seen a lot of talk about around here. I really hate this thought process.

This is why you don't wait:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5995754

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10415788/jameis-winston-florida-state-seminoles-plans-play-2-more-years

You never know what will be there. There's no way to project what next year's QB class will look like. Last year everybody was saying that the 2014 QB class was going to be awesome. Now there is no franchise QB.

If you don't like any QBs this year then obviously you pass on them. But if you like a guy, you don't pass just because there may be something better a year later.

badboy
02-07-2014, 09:29 PM
Yep I mentioned same thing upstream at post 130

Number19
02-08-2014, 07:31 AM
Not picking on you 19, just quoting this because I saw it mentioned in this thread. This is something I've seen a lot of talk about around here. I really hate this thought process.

This is why you don't wait:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5995754

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10415788/jameis-winston-florida-state-seminoles-plans-play-2-more-years

You never know what will be there. There's no way to project what next year's QB class will look like. Last year everybody was saying that the 2014 QB class was going to be awesome. Now there is no franchise QB.

If you don't like any QBs this year then obviously you pass on them. But if you like a guy, you don't pass just because there may be something better a year later.I agree with you to a large degree. It's folly to target a particular QB in a future draft. But it's also folly to obsess on taking a QB to the detriment of addressing the overall needs of the team.

For those of us who are considering the advantages of trading down, the point is made that there is no Luck in this years draft and the three top rated QB's all have question marks. Looking toward 2015 as a year to draft a QB is simply an ace in the hole. Most trade down scenarios have the Texans taking a QB in the second or third round and also signing a veteran FA; and then having Keenum and these two compete for the starting spot.

My concern is that by various reports, our current defensive personnel doesn't match up well with Crennel's 2-gap 34 defense, forcing him into a "hybrid" defensive scheme. So while there is talk that the team doesn't need major rebuilding to get us back on track to the playoffs, this may not actually be the case for our defense. Again, last night, there was talk on the radio of the lack of talent level of our current defensive personnel and which players might be retained and which might be let go. Drafting a QB 1-1 likely puts us on a two or three year defensive rebuilding track. Of course I recognize that we could get lucky with some lower draft picks, speeding up the rebuilding.

But using the inherent value of the 1-1 and the 2-1 picks makes a lot of sense if OB decides he doesn't need that QB with the first pick.

Nitrofish
02-08-2014, 10:25 AM
...Somewhere along the 4/5th rd I hope they pick a nickel CB. McCain gives me heartburn.

Only heartburn? It's more like a Brain Aneurysm for me when I watch him play. You can almost see opposing QB's start licking their lips when McCain comes on the field.

In regards to all this trading down talk, I think that is unlikely. McNair wants to win now, and deluded or not, that is his expectation, and I am sure that was communicated to O'Brien before he was hired.

My guess is, O'Brien will either select Clowney and try to make a deal for Mallet, or possibly trade down to select Bortles, and still go after Mallet as a bridge between he and Bortles. Mallet, and Bortles both possess all of the physical attributes O'Brien covets, and Mallet knows the offense making his job so much easier, allowing Bortles to sit behind Mallet and learn.

Bridgewater is the most Pro ready QB in the draft IMO and could start opening day should he be selected, but I question his durability, especially if the O-Line continues to struggle.

I have watched Manziel, and not only durability issues come up in my mind, but also his pension for throwing the ball up for grabs a lot. I think the frenzy to select Manziel 1st overall, is the same thing we saw with Keenum. Not that Manziel is not talented and dynamic, because he clearly is, but people want him more because he is from Texas more than anything else.

Whomever they choose, or whatever path the Texans take, I will get behind them and cheer them on win, lose, or draw.

Thorn
02-09-2014, 05:35 AM
My ideal scenario is at hand. Next football season I'll be retired and watching at my leisure. No more b!tching about late night games (like we'll have any) because they won't matter.

152 days and counting beyoutches. :lol:


Now it's 135 days and counting. :hurryup:

:fishing: :neener:

:evilb: