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silvrhand
01-08-2014, 03:16 PM
Question,

Does anyone know what type of offense Bill O'Brien is likely to use? My main concern is our offensive line for so many years are smaller more athletic and we have a considerable investment in 2 of them, and our running back is very geared towards the zone based running game, which we have another large investement in.

Thoughts on how this will work out?

- John

badboy
01-08-2014, 03:21 PM
Question,

Does anyone know what type of offense Bill O'Brien is likely to use? My main concern is our offensive line for so many years are smaller more athletic and we have a considerable investment in 2 of them, and our running back is very geared towards the zone based running game, which we have another large investement in.

Thoughts on how this will work out?

- JohnWith exception of Myers the rest of Oline are big boys that could play in a power type O. If Ben Jones can handle the less complex center in a Power, I'm all for allowing Myers to go saving $ and giving Jones reps.

Double Barrel
01-08-2014, 03:37 PM
If it's anything like the Patriots, here's a good article for you:

Speak My Language

As the players and schemes have changed, it's the way the Patriots talk that's continued their offensive dominance

[EXCERPT]

New England's offense is a member of the NFL's third offensive family, the Erhardt-Perkins system. The offense was named after the two men, Ron Erhardt and Ray Perkins, who developed it while working for the Patriots under head coach Chuck Fairbanks in the 1970s. According to Perkins, it was assembled in the same way most such systems are developed. "I don't look at it as us inventing it," he explained. "I look at it as a bunch of coaches sitting in rooms late at night organizing and getting things together to help players be successful."

The backbone of the Erhardt-Perkins system is that plays — pass plays in particular — are not organized by a route tree or by calling a single receiver's route, but by what coaches refer to as "concepts." Each play has a name, and that name conjures up an image for both the quarterback and the other players on offense. And, most importantly, the concept can be called from almost any formation or set. Who does what changes, but the theory and tactics driving the play do not. "In essence, you're running the same play," said Perkins. "You're just giving them some window-dressing to make it look different."

The biggest advantage of the concept-based system is that it operates from the perspective of the most critical player on offense: the quarterback. In other systems, even if the underlying principles are the exact same, the play and its name might be very different. Rather than juggling all this information in real time, an Erhardt-Perkins quarterback only has to read a given arrangement of receivers. "You can cut down on the plays and get different looks from your formations and who's in them. It's easier for the players to learn. It's easier for the quarterback to learn," former Patriots offensive coordinator Charlie Weis said back in 2000. "You get different looks without changing his reads. You don't need an open-ended number of plays."

Full article (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8849439/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots)

infantrycak
01-08-2014, 03:43 PM
With exception of Myers the rest of Oline are big boys that could play in a power type O. If Ben Jones can handle the less complex center in a Power, I'm all for allowing Myers to go saving $ and giving Jones reps.

Why are you going with your hopes when there is an answer already at hand?

silvrhnd - they have hired an OL coach, Brian Ferentz. He is the son of Kirk Ferentz (who interviewed for the Texans HC position in 2006) current Iowa HC (where he coached Brian). They are ZBS disciples. This is not surprising since the Patriots are a zone based team.

The Patriots center is 6'2" 275 lbs.

mussop
01-08-2014, 05:02 PM
Why are you going with your hopes when there is an answer already at hand?

silvrhnd - they have hired an OL coach, Brian Ferentz. He is the son of Kirk Ferentz (who interviewed for the Texans HC position in 2006) current Iowa HC (where he coached Brian). They are ZBS disciples. This is not surprising since the Patriots are a zone based team.

The Patriots center is 6'2" 275 lbs.

I didn't realize there is two Ferentze's. I thought we were getting the one we interviewed in 2006.

IDEXAN
01-08-2014, 05:56 PM
Why are you going with your hopes when there is an answer already at hand?

silvrhnd - they have hired an OL coach, Brian Ferentz. He is the son of Kirk Ferentz (who interviewed for the Texans HC position in 2006) current Iowa HC (where he coached Brian). They are ZBS disciples. This is not surprising since the Patriots are a zone based team.

The Patriots center is 6'2" 275 lbs.
Got any documentation to back that up ? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, it's just that I was unsuccessful in finding any definitive explanation of the Hawkeyes offense being operated with a preference for either a Power or a Zone Blocking scheme.

The Pencil Neck
01-08-2014, 06:04 PM
Got any documentation to back that up ? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, it's just that I was unsuccessful in finding any definitive explanation of the Hawkeyes offense being operated with a preference for either a Power or a Zone Blocking scheme.

Well, I don't know how reliable this is but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_blocking


1995-2009: Denver Broncos [HC Mike Shanahan and Josh McDaniels (kept scheme in first year)]
1999-Present: University of Iowa [HC Kirk Ferentz]
2001-2007: West Virginia University [HC Rich Rodriguez]
2001-2008: Bowling Green State University [HC Urban Meyer and Gregg Brandon]
2002-2006: University of Minnesota [HC Glen Mason]
2003-2004: University of Utah [HC Urban Meyer]
2004-2006: Atlanta Falcons [HC Jim L. Mora]
2005-2010: University of Florida [HC Urban Meyer]
2005-2009: University of Notre Dame [HC Charlie Weis]
2006-2010: University of Michigan [HC Lloyd Carr and Rich Rodriguez]
2006-Present: Green Bay Packers [HC Mike McCarthy]
2006-Present: Houston Texans [HC Gary Kubiak]
2007-2012: University of Oregon [OC Chip Kelly]

I took out more than necessary to show that Kubiak is in there but also to show that Weis is in there as well as McDaniel (for at least his first year at Denver) in addition to Ferentz.

infantrycak
01-08-2014, 06:10 PM
Got any documentation to back that up ? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, it's just that I was unsuccessful in finding any definitive explanation of the Hawkeyes offense being operated with a preference for either a Power or a Zone Blocking scheme.

Not sure why you can't find anything. "Kirk Ferentz Iowa zone blocking" came up with a bunch.

These are from wiki:

The University of Iowa under head coach Kirk Ferentz, a former NFL offensive line coach, utilizes zone blocking and the inside/outside stretch play as the basis for their offense.

Maybe I undersold him as a disciple:

The concept of Zone blocking in both the run and pass game was created by Iowa coach Kirk Ferentz. However, this blocking scheme came to prominence when used by the Denver Broncos, under offensive line coach Alex Gibbs (formerly the offensive line coach for the Seattle Seahawks), and head coach Mike Shanahan.

Kirk Ferentz was Belichick's OL coach the last 3 seasons in Cleveland.

IDEXAN
01-08-2014, 11:06 PM
Not sure why you can't find anything. "Kirk Ferentz Iowa zone blocking" came up with a bunch.

These are from wiki:



Maybe I undersold him as a disciple:



Kirk Ferentz was Belichick's OL coach the last 3 seasons in Cleveland.
Yup, I missed it bigger than hell. Don't know how I managed to do that ? I think I looked under the school and not the coach. Anyway good deal, because I like the zone blocking stuff and looks like it's gonna be around in Houston for quite a bit more time.
Now we'll need to sit tight to see who the DC will be to find out if we are gonna go with a 3-4 or 4-3 ?

Texecutioner
01-08-2014, 11:34 PM
Question,

Does anyone know what type of offense Bill O'Brien is likely to use? My main concern is our offensive line for so many years are smaller more athletic and we have a considerable investment in 2 of them, and our running back is very geared towards the zone based running game, which we have another large investement in.

Thoughts on how this will work out?

- John

I imagine they will be running a scheme that is fast paced and can run on different types of tempos. It will adjust to pass heavy and run heavy at different periods of time depending on who the opposition is. O'Brien really didn't run the offense that much different than how McDaniels is running it right now. O'Briend had been on the Patriots staff before McDaniels left to coach the Broncos. I think you'll see a very similar style offense to what they tried to execute in NE, but we'll have to wait until we have a QB who can really implement that game plan to the high level people are used to seeing.

76Texan
01-09-2014, 01:09 AM
Was watching some Penn St. and Iowa; they both employed the ZBS alright.

Iowa has a good-looking RT (Brett Van Slotten) that the Texans will probably bring in as an UDFA.
He's a very athletic guy that needs to build up some more strength for the run game. Second team All Big 12.
Taylor Lewan, a first-teamer, will probably be drafted in the first round.
The other first-teamer is a Jr for the Hawkeyes, who had decided to go back to school.
The other second-teamer, Mewhort, is slotted to be drafted in the 3rd-4th.

Van Slotten looked good in the Outback Bowl against LSU.
He didn't allow any QB pressure; it was the interior line that leaked.

BullNation4Life
01-10-2014, 11:45 AM
Man screw it, somebody tell Billy boy to install the ol' Chuck and Duck....

Bring back to glory days of the Oilers...

HOU-TEX
01-10-2014, 12:09 PM
I think we're going to run the veer

IDEXAN
01-10-2014, 12:19 PM
If Munchack were in fact to be hired as the OLine coach (which would really surprise me), let me just say that our chances of being a predominantly ZBS team would drop substantially because I don't think he drafted Chance Warmack last year when he was the Titans HC with his first round pick to run a finesse ZB scheme.

JB
01-10-2014, 12:23 PM
I think we're going to run the veer

hahaha I was thinking that, with a bit of wishbone to mix it up

JB
01-10-2014, 12:27 PM
If Munchack were in fact to be hired as the OLine coach (which would really surprise me), let me just say that our chances of being a predominantly ZBS team would drop substantially because I don't think he drafted Chance Warmack last year when he was the Titans HC with his first round pick to run a finesse ZB scheme.

I don't think the rest of the line was much suited to run zbs predominately. You don't change the scheme to fit only the one player. But to think that Munchak doesn't know or can teach the zbs is kinda silly, and what does who Tennessee drafted have to do with what kind of offense O'Brien want to run?

mussop
01-10-2014, 12:36 PM
I don't think the rest of the line was much suited to run zbs predominately. You don't change the scheme to fit only the one player. But to think that Munchak doesn't know or can teach the zbs is kinda silly, and what does who Tennessee drafted have to do with what kind of offense O'Brien want to run?

Maybe he's bringing Womack with him. :kitten:

HOU-TEX
01-10-2014, 12:54 PM
If Munchack were in fact to be hired as the OLine coach (which would really surprise me), let me just say that our chances of being a predominantly ZBS team would drop substantially because I don't think he drafted Chance Warmack last year when he was the Titans HC with his first round pick to run a finesse ZB scheme.

The titans have, in fact, run the ZBS a lot. Heck, practically every team in the NFL mixes in ZBS running plays. They just don't base their entire offense around it like we did.

IDEXAN
01-10-2014, 01:45 PM
The titans have, in fact, run the ZBS a lot. Heck, practically every team in the NFL mixes in ZBS running plays. They just don't base their entire offense around it like we did.
I know that teams run a variety of offensive schemes just as they run a variety of defenses. Nevertheless a team will be a base 3-4 or base 4-3 on defense, just as it will favor the power or zone scheme though they will run both throughout the course of a game, every game they play.

IDEXAN
01-10-2014, 02:00 PM
I don't think the rest of the line was much suited to run zbs predominately. You don't change the scheme to fit only the one player. But to think that Munchak doesn't know or can teach the zbs is kinda silly, and what does who Tennessee drafted have to do with what kind of offense O'Brien want to run?
Big-time FA Andy Levitre, the other Titans starting guard, cost the Titans lots of money and no doubt he was also a power type. Teams usually don't invest that kind of money or 1st round picks for zone guys, i.e., they are taken to go mano-a-mano against a JJ Watt for example. And Munchacks personal game was also power game, that's how he got into the HOF. But can Munchack teach other methods ? Of course, I'm sure he could teach any system, but I'm just pointing out what his preferences almost surely are.
And just as surely, I'd expect rookie NFL HC O'Brien will highly value Munchack's advise to include his preferences about OLine play.

speedfreek
01-10-2014, 02:01 PM
Best news I have heard this week..

Was watching some Penn St. and Iowa; they both employed the ZBS alright.

speedfreek
01-10-2014, 02:03 PM
Would at least make for a more interesting offense..

Would Romeo ever take a swing at Mangini?

Come to think of it -- our coaching staff might make
a pretty good DL (sizewise)

RC in the middle, Mangini and O'brien at end..
nyuk nyuk nyuk..

Man screw it, somebody tell Billy boy to install the ol' Chuck and Duck....

Bring back to glory days of the Oilers...

Playoffs
10-13-2014, 01:43 PM
If it's anything like the Patriots, here's a good article for you:

Speak My Language (http://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/)

http://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/grant_ghost-tosser_sy_57611.jpg

The theory here is that no matter the formation, there is an outside receiver, an inside receiver, and a middle receiver, and each will be responsible for running his designated route. For the quarterback, this means the play can be run repeatedly, from different formations and with different personnel, all while his read stays effectively the same. Once receivers understand each concept, they only have to know at which position they’re lined up. The personnel and formation might cause the defense to respond differently, but for New England those changes only affect which side Brady prefers or which receiver he expects to be open. This conceptual approach is how the Patriots are able to run the same basic plays, whether spreading the field with four or five receivers or using multiple tight ends and running backs.

The most recent innovation to fall into New England’s Erhardt-Perkins framework is a commitment to the no-huddle...

Really like having all three 3rds of the field to use from the snap, but we've got to start getting first downs to make the no huddle effective. Looks like we're:

28th in 1st downs per game,
29th in 1st Quarter scoring, and
28th in plays per game.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/plays-per-game

dream_team
10-13-2014, 11:46 PM
http://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/grant_ghost-tosser_sy_57611.jpg







Really like having all three 3rds of the field to use from the snap, but we've got to start getting first downs to make the no huddle effective. Looks like we're:



28th in 1st downs per game,

29th in 1st Quarter scoring, and

28th in plays per game.



http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/plays-per-game


Great article. Thanks! I learned a lot. It sounds like this system was developed to simplify the offense play calling. So why do some players (namely Ochocinco) have a hard time adjusting to it?

thunderkyss
10-14-2014, 07:55 AM
Great article. Thanks! I learned a lot. It sounds like this system was developed to simplify the offense play calling. So why do some players (namely Ochocinco) have a hard time adjusting to it?

He's got to be on the same page with the QB. He's got to see what the QB sees.

& I doubt it was just an inability to pick it up that kept him on the bench. OchoCinco was a very "me" oriented player in a very "team" oriented environment.

The Pencil Neck
10-14-2014, 12:33 PM
He's got to be on the same page with the QB. He's got to see what the QB sees.

& I doubt it was just an inability to pick it up that kept him on the bench. OchoCinco was a very "me" oriented player in a very "team" oriented environment.

I thought he didn't run the right routes and instead preferred to just run to open spots.

OTOH, when he got to the Dolphins, it wasn't just his routes, it was his hands. He couldn't seem to catch anything.

Dread-Head
10-14-2014, 12:40 PM
(To the tune of "If I only had a Brain" from The Wizzard of Oz.)

[I]We would cheer away the hours
in sunshine and in showers
and cold torrential rain...

Other teams would be crappin'
fearin' J.J. Watt's attackin'
If we ONLY HAD A QUARTERBACK!

Corrosion
10-14-2014, 03:41 PM
http://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/grant_ghost-tosser_sy_57611.jpg

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/plays-per-game

In every image , the TE's routes break towards the sidelines .... as does every route on the strong side (other than the deep routes that are already on the sideline).

Not that this is the only play in the book .... but it does illustrate my earlier point , in multiple threads , that they don't do much up with the deep / intermediate routes between the hash marks , space that TE's often occupy and that are a staple of the NE passing attack.

The Pencil Neck
10-14-2014, 04:13 PM
In every image , the TE's routes break towards the sidelines .... as does every route on the strong side (other than the deep routes that are already on the sideline).

Not that this is the only play in the book .... but it does illustrate my earlier point , in multiple threads , that they don't do much up with the deep / intermediate routes between the hash marks , space that TE's often occupy and that are a staple of the NE passing attack.

Well, the Texans and the Patriots playbooks in that regard are pretty much the same thing. Those plays are in our playbook.

But a lot of this boils down to:
1) The Gameplan -- figuring out which of our plays we're going to focus on that we think are going to take advantage of what our opponents do and that's on the coaches

2) The calls at the line -- because in this offense, if you have a group of receivers on a side, the QB can change their route combination to any other route combination for that number of receivers. It's up to the QB to make the pre-snap read and then alter those routes to something that will take advantage of that defense. This is where I feel Fitzpatrick is failing because he's not putting them into route combinations that free them up.

Where you're calling the route combinations uninspired and ineffective and blaming the playcalling and play design, I'm placing the blame on Fitzpatrick because that's the route combo he chose to go with.

This is what's so intrinsically different from our old offense. Getting guys open with the route combinations was on the play design and on Kubiak's playcalling with the old system and it worked and he was good at it, but the new system just doesn't work that way. And right now, I think that's probably Fitzpatrick's fault unless OB and Godsey aren't preparing him properly to change to the most effective routine combos.

thunderkyss
10-14-2014, 04:58 PM
This is what's so intrinsically different from our old offense. Getting guys open with the route combinations was on the play design and on Kubiak's playcalling with the old system and it worked and he was good at it, but the new system just doesn't work that way. And right now, I think that's probably Fitzpatrick's fault unless OB and Godsey aren't preparing him properly to change to the most effective routine combos.

it may just be that he hasn't seen enough yet. Learning it on the board & in practice is one thing but when he sees it on the field it may look totally different. That may be why he seems to look a lot better after halftime because he's seen most of their defense by then & the coaches were able to help him relate in the locker room.

Corrosion
10-14-2014, 05:29 PM
Where you're calling the route combinations uninspired and ineffective and blaming the playcalling and play design, I'm placing the blame on Fitzpatrick because that's the route combo he chose to go with.





We'll just have to agree to disagree ....

The Pencil Neck
10-14-2014, 05:32 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree ....

So you're saying that Fitzpatrick can't audible out of a bad play?

Playoffs
10-14-2014, 05:48 PM
In every image , the TE's routes break towards the sidelines .... as does every route on the strong side (other than the deep routes that are already on the sideline).

Not that this is the only play in the book .... but it does illustrate my earlier point , in multiple threads , that they don't do much up with the deep / intermediate routes between the hash marks , space that TE's often occupy and that are a staple of the NE passing attack.

That's just one play/route concept.

Between the hash marks...

Patriots in 210(44% more) total attempts are
20+ yards: 3/8 - 107 - 1TD - 0INT for PFF (https://www.profootballfocus.com/) Passer Rating = 125.0

10-19 yards: 19/32 - 323 - 2TD - 1INT for PFF (https://www.profootballfocus.com/) Passer Rating = 101.4
Texans in 160 total attempts are
20+ yards: 4/6 - 159 - 1TD - 2INT for PFF (https://www.profootballfocus.com/) Passer Rating = 109.7

10-19 yards: 11/16 - 147 - 0TD - 1INT for PFF (https://www.profootballfocus.com/) Passer Rating = 71.6

What we're seeing is an offense run more through WRs than TEs/SlotWRs, as that is where the talent is on this team.

TE targets(57): Gronk 44, Hoomanawanui 2, Wright 11

TE targets(18): Graham 12, Fiedo 3, Griffin 3

What we need is to run more plays. 80+ per game. And we need our young TE to master the snap count and blocking assignments so he can graduate to pass-catching. And we need better arm talent at QB.

Corrosion
10-14-2014, 05:52 PM
So you're saying that Fitzpatrick can't audible out of a bad play?

Not at all ... What I'm stating is that while Fitzpatrick sucks .... so does this scheme. Its very rudimentary as far as NFL offenses go. It also ignores routes that attack the middle of the field .... and doesn't take advantage of the strengths of some players - Particularly:

Arian Foster with the lack of play action.
A TE who has proven the ability to produce in Graham.
Doesn't attack the middle of the field allowing defenses to largely ignore defending it concentrating their efforts outside.

infantrycak
10-14-2014, 05:53 PM
Not sure where you are getting your stats. Fitz is 4 of 10 beyond 20 yds.

And comparing anything to this year's Patriots is a bit off.

Edit - he is 109.7 from 30+ where he is 3 of 4 which kind of proves the point it ain't even being tried rather than they are good at it.

playa465
10-14-2014, 05:59 PM
In every image , the TE's routes break towards the sidelines .... as does every route on the strong side (other than the deep routes that are already on the sideline).

Not that this is the only play in the book .... but it does illustrate my earlier point , in multiple threads , that they don't do much up with the deep / intermediate routes between the hash marks , space that TE's often occupy and that are a staple of the NE passing attack.

You're right in that this is just 1 play where the routes don't feature straight down the middle routes, but I have seen Gronk run up the hash marks on TDs or long gains. What I do find funny is that the articles says, "It’s easier for the players to learn. It’s easier for the quarterback to learn". Hmm...no need to go into what comes next :fingergun:

The Pencil Neck
10-14-2014, 06:42 PM
Not at all ... What I'm stating is that while Fitzpatrick sucks .... so does this scheme. Its very rudimentary as far as NFL offenses go. It also ignores routes that attack the middle of the field .... and doesn't take advantage of the strengths of some players - Particularly:

Arian Foster with the lack of play action.
A TE who has proven the ability to produce in Graham.
Doesn't attack the middle of the field allowing defenses to largely ignore defending it concentrating their efforts outside.

What I'm saying is that you're attributing something to the scheme that's not attributable to the scheme. It's not the scheme that's not attacking the middle of the field. The Patriots use this same offense and they use their TEs and they attack the middle of the field.

I think it's more of a problem with what Fitzpatrick is comfortable with and what Fitzpatrick chooses to go after.

infantrycak
10-14-2014, 06:45 PM
What I'm saying is that you're attributing something to the scheme that's not attributable to the scheme. It's not the scheme that's not attacking the middle of the field. The Patriots use this same offense and they use their TEs and they attack the middle of the field.

I think it's more of a problem with what Fitzpatrick is comfortable with and what Fitzpatrick chooses to go after.

There's different ways of calling the "same" offense. When was the last time you saw a TE running 20 yds down the seam?

Corrosion
10-14-2014, 07:41 PM
I think it's more of a problem with what Fitzpatrick is comfortable with and what Fitzpatrick chooses to go after.

Have you watched Fitz in the past ?

I recall the a game he played against the Texans where he carved them up with deep to intermediate routes in the middle of the field - as a rookie.

He threw quite a few balls up the seams with the Bills.

He also utilized the TE's in Buffalo (2012 stats) Scott Chandler caught 43 balls from him and Dorin Dickerson 9.

Delanie Walker caught 60 balls last season (2013) for the Tinbreds with Fitz (and Locker) at QB.


13 catches for the TE's thru 6 games .....

JB
10-14-2014, 07:44 PM
Have you watched Fitz in the past ?

I recall the a game he played against the Texans where he carved them up with deep to intermediate routes in the middle of the field - as a rookie.

He threw quite a few balls up the seams with the Bills.

He also utilized the TE's in Buffalo (2012 stats) Scott Chandler caught 43 balls from him and Dorin Dickerson 9.

Delanie Walker caught 60 balls last season (2013) for the Tinbreds with Fitz (and Locker) at QB.


13 catches for the TE's thru 6 games .....

How often do TE's even go out in this offense to date? Are they staying in to block or running routes and can't get open, or get open and fitz don't find them?

Corrosion
10-14-2014, 07:53 PM
There's different ways of calling the "same" offense. When was the last time you saw a TE running 20 yds down the seam?

I cant recall one time this season .... which is kinda funny because when OB was hired , many thought we'd see quite a bit of that .... since he runs the NE offense.

Graham didn't all the sudden forget how to catch or get open ...


How often do TE's even go out in this offense to date? Are they staying in to block or running routes and can't get open, or get open and fitz don't find them?

I don't know the percentages of routes run on pass plays .... I'm sure one of the stat guru's like Playoffs could locate that ....

What I do know is what I see them doing on all22 when they are running routes - Everything is short or breaks to the outside.

That means they are likely matched up with an LBer who matches up better with them rather than a smaller safety .... that they have a significant size advantage over.

The Pencil Neck
10-14-2014, 08:27 PM
There's different ways of calling the "same" offense. When was the last time you saw a TE running 20 yds down the seam?

In THIS offense, whose choice is that? Who is it that's supposed to read the defense and tell the TE to run 20 yards down the seam?

That route is in the playbook.

infantrycak
10-14-2014, 08:34 PM
In THIS offense, whose choice is that? Who is it that's supposed to read the defense and tell the TE to run 20 yards down the seam?

That route is in the playbook.

It's guesswork but I'm assuming the HC would tell his QB to call different routes if he didn't like what was being called. Which gets us back to the HC. And he isn't changing QBs which would seem to indicate happiness with the play calling. Again, back to the HC.

The Pencil Neck
10-14-2014, 11:09 PM
It's guesswork but I'm assuming the HC would tell his QB to call different routes if he didn't like what was being called. Which gets us back to the HC. And he isn't changing QBs which would seem to indicate happiness with the play calling. Again, back to the HC.

So. It's not a problem with the routes that exist in the offense. It's not a problem with the offense, itself.

It's a problem with HC for either
a) not getting the QB prepared so that he can call the right route combinations to take advantage of the defense
b) not pulling the QB and putting someone else in who may be able to call the right route combinations

I've got no problem placing the blame for our lack of offensive production at OB's feet.

But.

Blaming this offense for being non-creative and not attacking the middle of the field is like blaming Kubiak's offense for not allowing Schaub to audible. In Kubiak's offense, Schaub didn't have to audible because the play design was supposed to react to whatever the defense was doing. In this offense, that creativity is not in the play's initial design but it's ability to react to the defense based on the QB's ability to make the read and then change the route combinations.

JB
10-14-2014, 11:23 PM
So. It's not a problem with the routes that exist in the offense. It's not a problem with the offense, itself.

It's a problem with HC for either
a) not getting the QB prepared so that he can call the right route combinations to take advantage of the defense
b) not pulling the QB and putting someone else in who may be able to call the right route combinations

I've got no problem placing the blame for our lack of offensive production at OB's feet.

But.

Blaming this offense for being non-creative and not attacking the middle of the field is like blaming Kubiak's offense for not allowing Schaub to audible. In Kubiak's offense, Schaub didn't have to audible because the play design was supposed to react to whatever the defense was doing. In this offense, that creativity is not in the play's initial design but it's ability to react to the defense based on the QB's ability to make the read and then change the route combinations.

whatever it is, 11 guys and the coaching staff don't get it together until it's OH CRAP time

Texan_Bill
10-14-2014, 11:58 PM
Have you watched Fitz in the past ?

I recall the a game he played against the Texans where he carved them up with deep to intermediate routes in the middle of the field - as a rookie.



And again with another team.... Dude beat us with two different teams. Rams and Bills?? IIRC???

JB
10-15-2014, 12:08 AM
And again with another team.... Dude beat us with two different teams. Rams and Bills?? IIRC???

Yeah he did, but he ain't playing like that FOR us...



hell, he ain't even playing as good as he did last year for the tinnbreds in hickhollow

Corrosion
10-15-2014, 01:22 AM
And again with another team.... Dude beat us with two different teams. Rams and Bills?? IIRC???

Yeah , chucking it all over the field (and to the wrong color jersey).

Yeah he did, but he ain't playing like that FOR us...



hell, he ain't even playing as good as he did last year for the tinnbreds in hickhollow


I've watched Fitz many times over the years , and this is far from what I expected. Dude is know as a gunslinger (Think of a crappy version of Favre) who's prone to make big plays or big mistakes.
I really think OB has him handcuffed to limit those mistakes & let the running game / defense do the work.

Throwing over the middle of the field can lead to those mistakes .... Part of that handcuffing is limiting his throws over the middle .... which wouldn't bother me if the offense wasn't so damn stagnant to begin with.


As for Fitz having the ability to "get them in the right play" .... Yeah , he has some freedom to do that at the line.
But every route is not available to each specific play because of the way routes interact with each other. In general , he's not changing the entire route grouping but a single route within that grouping to exploit or avoid specific situations.


Fitz has used those routes and heavy TE usage in the past with multiple teams , he's not doing it here. WHY?! (Fitz & Scott Chandler (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko_XrM8NH0Y) highlights)

If Fitz wasn't doing what OB told him to do .... he'd likely be holding the clip board. Or the media would be all over it.

To be honest , I'm tired of arguing about it .... All I know is what I see and I don't see them utilizing those type of routes and I have multiple reasons to believe its on the playcaller.

Lets forget about the middle of the field and TE play ..... where's the play action ?! Foster is a weapon .... why not exploit that ??
And why isn't there a check down option for the QB to dump the ball off to when his first & second reads are not there??

Fitz is hot garbage .... But I don't think this scheme is helping him be the best hot garbage he can be.

speedfreek
10-15-2014, 07:17 AM
this offense is simple, predictable, and basically ineffective.

t's "give the ball to Arian" and hope it works out..

#28 pass yds/game
#21 pts/game

but

#10 rush yds/game

NY was without Foster, and we had a fairly bad rushing game.
NY isn't a world beater either, they just got pantsed by a truly creative
offense when they played philly.

Twice now our opponents have gotten out to multiple score leads -
yes, we rallied, but that happens when the other team takes their
foot off the gas for a while..

BoB needs to hire a legit OC that has the same philosophy but can
be more innovative

amazing80
10-15-2014, 09:30 AM
Yeah , chucking it all over the field (and to the wrong color jersey).




I've watched Fitz many times over the years , and this is far from what I expected. Dude is know as a gunslinger (Think of a crappy version of Favre) who's prone to make big plays or big mistakes.
I really think OB has him handcuffed to limit those mistakes & let the running game / defense do the work.

Throwing over the middle of the field can lead to those mistakes .... Part of that handcuffing is limiting his throws over the middle .... which wouldn't bother me if the offense wasn't so damn stagnant to begin with.


As for Fitz having the ability to "get them in the right play" .... Yeah , he has some freedom to do that at the line.
But every route is not available to each specific play because of the way routes interact with each other. In general , he's not changing the entire route grouping but a single route within that grouping to exploit or avoid specific situations.


Fitz has used those routes and heavy TE usage in the past with multiple teams , he's not doing it here. WHY?! (Fitz & Scott Chandler (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko_XrM8NH0Y) highlights)

If Fitz wasn't doing what OB told him to do .... he'd likely be holding the clip board. Or the media would be all over it.

To be honest , I'm tired of arguing about it .... All I know is what I see and I don't see them utilizing those type of routes and I have multiple reasons to believe its on the playcaller.

Lets forget about the middle of the field and TE play ..... where's the play action ?! Foster is a weapon .... why not exploit that ??
And why isn't there a check down option for the QB to dump the ball off to when his first & second reads are not there??

Fitz is hot garbage .... But I don't think this scheme is helping him be the best hot garbage he can be.


I am less interested in how many times he threw to chandler and more interested in how many times he would progress through his reads past chandler. Chandler is like our Andre or Hopkins. The first or second read. Stevie May have been the first. His problem is not progressing his reads and when he tries he is slow as hell at it. And for play action, why call it? His fakes are the worst I have ever seen in my life.

thunderkyss
10-15-2014, 10:02 AM
Fitz has used those routes and heavy TE usage in the past with multiple teams , he's not doing it here. WHY?! (Fitz & Scott Chandler (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko_XrM8NH0Y) highlights)

If Fitz wasn't doing what OB told him to do .... he'd likely be holding the clip board.

The Koolaide in me wants to believe this is how OB install's his offense. We'll see a little more & a little more with each passing week.

It's all I've got left to hold on to.

steelbtexan
10-15-2014, 10:47 AM
And again with another team.... Dude beat us with two different teams. Rams and Bills?? IIRC???

Tacks?

steelbtexan
10-15-2014, 10:54 AM
this offense is simple, predictable, and basically ineffective.

t's "give the ball to Arian" and hope it works out..

#28 pass yds/game
#21 pts/game

but

#10 rush yds/game

NY was without Foster, and we had a fairly bad rushing game.
NY isn't a world beater either, they just got pantsed by a truly creative
offense when they played philly.

Twice now our opponents have gotten out to multiple score leads -
yes, we rallied, but that happens when the other team takes their
foot off the gas for a while..

BoB needs to hire a legit OC that has the same philosophy but can
be more innovative

^^^^
This

Do you think Godsey is the defacto OC?

I like the fact that Arians who was a very experience OC hired Tom Moore to be his OC when he became HC at Arizona.

The Pencil Neck
10-15-2014, 01:44 PM
As for Fitz having the ability to "get them in the right play" .... Yeah , he has some freedom to do that at the line.
But every route is not available to each specific play because of the way routes interact with each other. In general , he's not changing the entire route grouping but a single route within that grouping to exploit or avoid specific situations.


What you're saying right there goes against everything I've heard about how this offense is supposed to work.

From the way this offense has been described, the routes are grouped into packages. When you call specific code words at the line, it changes up the entire route list for ALL the receivers on that side of the line. So if you have three receivers on that side and you say "ghost", it tells all three receivers to do a specific combination of routes.

That's what is supposed to be so adaptable and why this is supposed to be an easy to audible system

Uncle Rico
10-15-2014, 06:33 PM
I see more Penn State than I do Patriots offense to be honest.

ObsiWan
10-15-2014, 07:30 PM
What you're saying right there goes against everything I've heard about how this offense is supposed to work.

From the way this offense has been described, the routes are grouped into packages. When you call specific code words at the line, it changes up the entire route list for ALL the receivers on that side of the line. So if you have three receivers on that side and you say "ghost", it tells all three receivers to do a specific combination of routes.

That's what is supposed to be so adaptable and why this is supposed to be an easy to audible system

So if we're lined up strong left does "ghost" mean the same route combo that it would if we were strong right?
Or does that mean when the QB calls "ghost" at the line, does everyone shift positions to run the ghost combo?

The Pencil Neck
10-15-2014, 08:15 PM
So if we're lined up strong left does "ghost" mean the same route combo that it would if we were strong right?
Or does that mean when the QB calls "ghost" at the line, does everyone shift positions to run the ghost combo?

According to what I've seen and heard, he calls ghost to the side that has the personnel for it. And like the West Coast route tree, the routes flip depending on the side you're on.

So let's say "ghost" was two players on a side where the inside guy runs an out and the outside guy runs a skinny post. The QB comes to the line, sees some sort of quarters coverage or something on one side, and he calls ghost to that side and they run the routes; the outside guy taking the coverage deep while the inside guy fills the hole left underneath. If they're in 4-wide set with 2 receivers on both sides, he could call ghost to both sides.

Corrosion
10-15-2014, 09:25 PM
I see more Penn State than I do Patriots offense to be honest.

Better not criticize OB .... he's above reproach. :foottap:


Fitz is the only scapegoat.

The Pencil Neck
10-15-2014, 09:55 PM
Better not criticize OB .... he's above reproach. :foottap:

And that's just taking the whole discussion, at least on my part, the completely wrong way.

I've even said this looks like what was going on at Penn State more than New England.

What I'm saying is that the problems we're seeing isn't a problem with the offense, it's not a problem with certain routes not existing in the playbook, it's a problem with what's being called and how it's being called. Don't look at a couple of example plays taken out of context that don't have any routes over the middle and then jump to some the conclusion that we don't have any routes over the middle in the playbook.

It could be a problem with Fitz not getting his guys into the right places doing the right things (which could be communication issues or thought process issues) OR it could be a problem with OB not gameplanning properly and preparing Fitz properly to get his guys into the right places. I'm not absolving OB from being part of the problem here... all I've been saying is that the playbook itself is not the problem... just like the playbook was not the problem with Kubiak.

The reason Fitz might still be starting is because the problem with the offense has been OB/Godsey and OB's not going to pull Fitz in that case.

humblegeo
10-15-2014, 10:10 PM
Let me say this. We have lost 3 of the last 4. His offensive scheme isn't working. That's why all the expressions of disgust on his face on the sideline camera shots. The only way this offense seems to be able to move the ball is when Foster is having an unbelievable day running. The defense and special teams seem to score more TDs than our offense.

infantrycak
10-15-2014, 10:22 PM
And that's just taking the whole discussion, at least on my part, the completely wrong way.

I've even said this looks like what was going on at Penn State more than New England.

What I'm saying is that the problems we're seeing isn't a problem with the offense, it's not a problem with certain routes not existing in the playbook, it's a problem with what's being called and how it's being called. Don't look at a couple of example plays taken out of context that don't have any routes over the middle and then jump to some the conclusion that we don't have any routes over the middle in the playbook.

It could be a problem with Fitz not getting his guys into the right places doing the right things (which could be communication issues or thought process issues) OR it could be a problem with OB not gameplanning properly and preparing Fitz properly to get his guys into the right places. I'm not absolving OB from being part of the problem here... all I've been saying is that the playbook itself is not the problem... just like the playbook was not the problem with Kubiak.

The reason Fitz might still be starting is because the problem with the offense has been OB/Godsey and OB's not going to pull Fitz in that case.

You're right that we don't have all the details to exactly determine the causes. What we do know is we have an offense which doesn't stretch the field, barely employs TEs, largely ignores the middle of the field, worse than minimally employing play action for some reason inexplicably puts the RB out wide...and is marginally effective, generously, if they don't have to score quickly. I'm happy holding off on judging the system for now and laying it at the feet of the QB and/or play caller. But like people used to clamor for in game adjustments, I'm looking for in between game adjustments and not seeing any. Show me something different against the Steelers - new QB, TEs getting 6+ receptions, hey maybe a few boots to the right after gashing them rushing to the left, etc.

The Pencil Neck
10-15-2014, 10:28 PM
You're right that we don't have all the details to exactly determine the causes. What we do know is we have an offense which doesn't stretch the field, barely employs TEs, largely ignores the middle of the field, worse than minimally employing play action for some reason inexplicably puts the RB out wide...and is marginally effective, generously, if they don't have to score quickly. I'm happy holding off on judging the system for now and laying it at the feet of the QB and/or play caller. But like people used to clamor for in game adjustments, I'm looking for in between game adjustments and not seeing any. Show me something different against the Steelers - new QB, TEs getting 6+ receptions, hey maybe a few boots to the right after gashing them rushing to the left, etc.

I don't disagree with any of that in particular. I just think blaming the offensive system for the problem is like blaming Kubiak's offensive system and calling it outdated when that was not the issue.

OB has said that every week is a different thing, with different intentions to attack different weaknesses and create different mismatches. Like you, i have not seen that happen. I haven't seen adjustments BEFORE halftime like OB said we were going to see.

I don't know if that's Fitz's problem or OB's problem. At the beginning of the season, I thought it was Fitz and that getting Mallett, a guy who has been using these concepts for several years, would resolve it. But if OB's not switching over to Mallett, then I was wrong.

infantrycak
10-15-2014, 10:38 PM
Or OB is wrong.

The Pencil Neck
10-15-2014, 11:09 PM
Or OB is wrong.

Of course, you're right.

Can't be me. :smiliedance:

Texecutioner
10-16-2014, 12:38 AM
I don't disagree with any of that in particular. I just think blaming the offensive system for the problem is like blaming Kubiak's offensive system and calling it outdated when that was not the issue.

OB has said that every week is a different thing, with different intentions to attack different weaknesses and create different mismatches. Like you, i have not seen that happen. I haven't seen adjustments BEFORE halftime like OB said we were going to see.

I don't know if that's Fitz's problem or OB's problem. At the beginning of the season, I thought it was Fitz and that getting Mallett, a guy who has been using these concepts for several years, would resolve it. But if OB's not switching over to Mallett, then I was wrong.

I don't think there is a whole lot of changing in a game that OB can really do. With Fitz back there, he is pretty damn limited with what he can try and what he can ask. You have to remember that Fitz is a turnover machine. OB doesn't want to play high risk football with a TO machine like Fitz who will throw games away at will.

I am seeing exactly what I expected to see this season. A grind it out football team that wants to run the ball and slow the clock and win ugly games. That is exactly what we're seeing. We can't win every close every game of course, but we have won at least two of them and we have lost two of them. I don't think you are going to see much of a change at all until this team gets a QB where we can play a lot more versatile.

ObsiWan
10-16-2014, 04:23 AM
I don't think there is a whole lot of changing in a game that OB can really do. With Fitz back there, he is pretty damn limited with what he can try and what he can ask. You have to remember that Fitz is a turnover machine. OB doesn't want to play high risk football with a TO machine like Fitz who will throw games away at will.

That's not the bill of goods O'Brien sold us at the beginning of the year...

Bill O’Brien coached at New England for four years. Under Bill Belichick, the Patriots have been known for making the best halftime adjustments in the NFL.
“If you wait until halftime, you’re in trouble,” O’Brien said. “After the third (or) fourth series of the game, you should probably have a pretty good idea of how the game is going form a schematic standpoint.
“If it’s something different from what you thought, you better be ready to adjust in the second quarter or in the first quarter if you can. You have to make sure you’re on top of it during the first half. It’s really about how you want to open the second half.”


link (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2014/09/obriens-in-game-adjustments-wont-wait-until-halftime/#26367101=0)

thunderkyss
10-16-2014, 06:46 AM
That's not the bill of goods O'Brien sold us at the beginning of the year...



link (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2014/09/obriens-in-game-adjustments-wont-wait-until-halftime/#26367101=0)

Yeah, life is really difficult when you believe everything "they" tell you.

Texecutioner
10-16-2014, 02:19 PM
That's not the bill of goods O'Brien sold us at the beginning of the year...



link (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2014/09/obriens-in-game-adjustments-wont-wait-until-halftime/#26367101=0)

Well sorry but you or anyone else that thought this offense would look any different than what I just described were being foolish, unrealistic, and wishful. We don't have the pieces to do what you are asking and mainly because of Fitz. You loved his draft and felt like he was slowly building the interior first and that was the right way. Dont ***** about it now as if we have the collective group to look like some Tom Brady ran offense. We dont have a general that physically pull that off. We have a team that is built to play in ugly games and minimize TO's. That is what OB is attempting to do.

Mr teX
10-16-2014, 02:45 PM
Well sorry but you or anyone else that thought this offense would look any different than what I just described were being foolish, unrealistic, and wishful. We don't have the pieces to do what you are asking and mainly because of Fitz. You loved his draft and felt like he was slowly building the interior first and that was the right way. Dont ***** about it now as if we have the collective group to look like some Tom Brady ran offense. We dont have a general that physically pull that off. We have a team that is built to play in ugly games and minimize TO's. That is what OB is attempting to do.

Exactly...you had to know that with Fitz under center that half of what BoB said we were and what he was going to attempt to do was wishful thinking. You also have to know that to really implement changes like he's saying you have to stay on the field long enough to execute that. They've been 3 and out machines in the 1st qtr of games. That's not enough time or plays to really put in adjustments to get a defense thinking.

Corrosion
10-16-2014, 04:22 PM
Well sorry but you or anyone else that thought this offense would look any different than what I just described were being foolish, unrealistic, and wishful. We don't have the pieces to do what you are asking and mainly because of Fitz. You loved his draft and felt like he was slowly building the interior first and that was the right way. Dont ***** about it now as if we have the collective group to look like some Tom Brady ran offense. We dont have a general that physically pull that off. We have a team that is built to play in ugly games and minimize TO's. That is what OB is attempting to do.

If you look at Fitzpatrick's body of work , he looks nothing like the guy who played in STL , TinBred or Buffalo. He made a LOT of big plays in those places .... But he was also prone to making a lot of mistakes. He was known as a poor man's Bret Favre , a gunslinger. Not a "game manager."

This version of Fitzpatrick is significantly handcuffed .... So he doesn't make those mistakes but the problem is that he's not making the big play either.

This is the "production" I expected .... Just not how I expected it to come about.


As for the physical part .... Fitz has better physical tools (arm / mobility) than Brady .... He just doesn't have the accuracy or ability to read defenses on his level.

Double Barrel
10-16-2014, 05:00 PM
I don't think there is a whole lot of changing in a game that OB can really do. With Fitz back there, he is pretty damn limited with what he can try and what he can ask. You have to remember that Fitz is a turnover machine. OB doesn't want to play high risk football with a TO machine like Fitz who will throw games away at will.

I am seeing exactly what I expected to see this season. A grind it out football team that wants to run the ball and slow the clock and win ugly games. That is exactly what we're seeing. We can't win every close every game of course, but we have won at least two of them and we have lost two of them. I don't think you are going to see much of a change at all until this team gets a QB where we can play a lot more versatile.

My thoughts, as well. It's like trying to compete in the Indy 500 while driving a 1985 Buick LeSabre.

What I've seen from Fitzpatrick is exactly what I expected to see. Dude is not a starting-caliber QB. Dude couldn't even beat out Jake Locker last year in Tennessee.

In the end, though, it still comes back to O'Brien. He's the one hitching his wagon to Fitz, and he's the one with the desk where the buck stops.

thunderkyss
10-16-2014, 05:12 PM
If you look at Fitzpatrick's body of work , he looks nothing like the guy who played in STL , TinBred or Buffalo. He made a LOT of big plays in those places .... But he was also prone to making a lot of mistakes. He was known as a poor man's Bret Favre , a gunslinger. Not a "game manager."

This version of Fitzpatrick is significantly handcuffed .... So he doesn't make those mistakes but the problem is that he's not making the big play either.

This is the "production" I expected .... Just not how I expected it to come about.


As for the physical part .... Fitz has better physical tools (arm / mobility) than Brady .... He just doesn't have the accuracy or ability to read defenses on his level.

I know it's foolish to think this leopard will change his spots, but I've got nothing left to hang on to. It's just as silly to think Mallet will come in & be better right off the bat.

But we've seen what New England's offense looked like when the WRs weren't on the same page... Hopefully we're seeing an extension of that with the QB being as big a part of the problem.

New England got it together, supposedly, after 5 weeks... Hopefully it'll start clicking for us soon. Not that Fitz will ever be Brady, but maybe he can be that version of Cassell (why didn't we just sign Cassell?)....

At the very least, at least Fitz finally found Andre. Hopefully he'll remember what Hopkins looks like.

Corrosion
10-16-2014, 05:21 PM
What I've seen from Fitzpatrick is exactly what I expected to see. Dude is not a starting-caliber QB. Dude couldn't even beat out Jake Locker last year in Tennessee.



Like I said above , the results are on par with what I expected record wise .... Just how they get there isn't what I expected.

I expected Fitzpatrick to be the mistake prone gunslinger he's been in the past , not the mistake prone game manager he has been so far.

As for not beating out Locker .... I wonder what Lockers draft status had to do with that decision as teams don't just give up on early draft picks and Locker was the #8 overall pick in 2011 , going into his 3rd season last year.

Corrosion
10-16-2014, 05:33 PM
I know it's foolish to think this leopard will change his spots, but I've got nothing left to hang on to. It's just as silly to think Mallet will come in & be better right off the bat.

I don't think its silly to think Mallett COULD come in and be better from the get go .... Its just not likely because he was such a late pick up but the deeper we get into the season , the less that matters. He should have it down soon if not already.

But we've seen what New England's offense looked like when the WRs weren't on the same page... Hopefully we're seeing an extension of that with the QB being as big a part of the problem.

Are we sure its the QB that's the problem ??

OB stated that Fitz plays well when the team does .... and as I have mentioned numerous times , this offense isn't conducive to WR's getting open , they have to beat their guy without the assistance of complicated route combinations AND Fitz has to throw strikes. Thinking both of those things are going to happen at the same time is asking a lot IMO.

They also don't use much if any play action , which seems idiotic to me when you have Foster to exploit in that manner - even if Fitz fakes aren't on par with that of Schaub who could fake out the damn camera man 3-4 times a game.

New England got it together, supposedly, after 5 weeks... Hopefully it'll start clicking for us soon. Not that Fitz will ever be Brady, but maybe he can be that version of Cassell (why didn't we just sign Cassell?)....

At the very least, at least Fitz finally found Andre. Hopefully he'll remember what Hopkins looks like.

NE got it together after some struggles , but they have a future hall of famer under center .... He can make mediocre WR's look like ALL PRO's.

Why didn't they just sign Cassell ?? ....@$#* if I know , couldn't have been much worse than what we've seen thus far. He's not good either .... doubt the results would be any different.

Either Mallett (or Savage) shows he is the answer .... or we're doing this QB carousel again next season .... which is why they should have taken a shot with one of HWWNBMv2.0 , Manziel , GloveWater or Garappolo ..... I hate to waste another season waiting on a QB to adjust to the NFL.

JB
10-16-2014, 05:34 PM
I know it's foolish to think this leopard will change his spots, but I've got nothing left to hang on to. It's just as silly to think Mallet will come in & be better right off the bat.

But we've seen what New England's offense looked like when the WRs weren't on the same page... Hopefully we're seeing an extension of that with the QB being as big a part of the problem.

New England got it together, supposedly, after 5 weeks... Hopefully it'll start clicking for us soon. Not that Fitz will ever be Brady, but maybe he can be that version of Cassell (why didn't we just sign Cassell?)....

At the very least, at least Fitz finally found Andre. Hopefully he'll remember what Hopkins looks like.

Fitz seems to lock on his target, the OL is having a hard time adjusting to wrinkles thrown at them by the opposing defense and the WR seem to be running rigid routes and not getting separation. Add to the above the coaching staff is keeping it really basic. The game needs to slow down for all.

On a good note, we got foster and Watt

xtruroyaltyx
10-16-2014, 05:52 PM
One thing I wish OB would do is incorporate the zone stretch and the bootleg off of that.

On the Bootleg when you get the defense flowing and pull the ball, you can get creative with the routes you run and you'll have guys running wide open. When we played NE in the play offs they even ran a variation of it and gashed us with it.

This team is already built for that type of action. The players know how to execute it. Just have to get Fitz up to speed, but that shouldn't be too hard. And with Fitz mobility that would be an added element that we'd have on those roll outs. The threat of him scrambling for yards would cause defenders to creep up and open up a lot of lanes for passes.

Heck, even throw in some of that Chip Kelly style offense.

We are supposed to be multiple. Lets see it. Start incorporating more things. More wrinkles.

I get how hard it is to learn a system. But these guys are NFL players. It's all they have to do.

JB
10-16-2014, 05:55 PM
One thing I wish OB would do is incorporate the zone stretch and the bootleg off of that.

On the Bootleg when you get the defense flowing and pull the ball, you can get creative with the routes you run and you'll have guys running wide open. When we played NE in the play offs they even ran a variation of it and gashed us with it.

This team is already built for that type of action. The players know how to execute it. Just have to get Fitz up to speed, but that shouldn't be too hard. And with Fitz mobility that would be an added element that we'd have on those roll outs. The threat of him scrambling for yards would cause defenders to creep up and open up a lot of lanes for passes.

Heck, even throw in some of that Chip Kelly style offense.

We are supposed to be multiple. Lets see it. Start incorporating more things. More wrinkles.

I get how hard it is to learn a system. But these guys are NFL players. It's all they have to do.

They do seem to play better when they are moving at a faster pace

Double Barrel
10-16-2014, 06:12 PM
Like I said above , the results are on par with what I expected record wise .... Just how they get there isn't what I expected.

I expected Fitzpatrick to be the mistake prone gunslinger he's been in the past , not the mistake prone game manager he has been so far.

As for not beating out Locker .... I wonder what Lockers draft status had to do with that decision as teams don't just give up on early draft picks and Locker was the #8 overall pick in 2011 , going into his 3rd season last year.

I never expected to see Fitz the gunslinger in this offense. That's not how it's designed. It uses a modified Erhardt-Perkins system, but with timing patterns seen in WCO offenses. Based on how the Patriots utilize it, I do not recall seeing Brady use play-action much at all.

I think the game manager thing is O'Brien's attempt to mitigate mistakes by his QB. Gunslingers are too risky, and his downside is far greater that his upside.

As far as Locker vs. Fitz, you could be right about draft position. I've never been impressed with either QB. Fitz has had moments of being decent in the past decade, but he's always been very inconsistent. There is a reason this is his fifth team in 10 years.

ObsiWan
10-16-2014, 07:46 PM
Well sorry but you or anyone else that thought this offense would look any different than what I just described were being foolish, unrealistic, and wishful. We don't have the pieces to do what you are asking and mainly because of Fitz. You loved his draft and felt like he was slowly building the interior first and that was the right way. Dont ***** about it now as if we have the collective group to look like some Tom Brady ran offense. We dont have a general that physically pull that off. We have a team that is built to play in ugly games and minimize TO's. That is what OB is attempting to do.
It's not the "look" of the offense I was talking about. It's the adaptability O'Brien claimed we would implement. And that quote was from Sept 4th. He'd had all spring and summer to evaluate his squad. He should have known by the end of OTAs/mini-camp/training camp/pre-season what he had to work with and how well they were picking up the new system.

And regarding the draft, you aren't remembering that *I* wanted Matthews or Robinson because I didn't have much faith in Newton at RT. I also wanted an ILB who could cover and play the run because none of us knew if Cushing would come back whole. Go back and check the "who should we pick @ 1-1 poll. My vote was for Robinson.

Texecutioner
10-16-2014, 11:13 PM
If you look at Fitzpatrick's body of work , he looks nothing like the guy who played in STL , TinBred or Buffalo. He made a LOT of big plays in those places .... But he was also prone to making a lot of mistakes. He was known as a poor man's Bret Favre , a gunslinger. Not a "game manager."

Kudos to you for finally being a guy that remembers the Fitzpatrick that I do. Fitz used to have a pretty strong arm. He actually had one strong year in Buffalo and got awarded a nice contract where he threw for almost 30 TD's one year. What the hell happened to that guy's arm??? WHere did it go? I don't ever remember seeing this noodle arm dude before, but now he can't hit a guy to save his life that is only 10 yards away and his arm strength is pathetic. He simply isn't capable of making most throws that you need your QB to make.



This version of Fitzpatrick is significantly handcuffed .... So he doesn't make those mistakes but the problem is that he's not making the big play either.

Again, he can't do it nearly consistent enough or even at all.

This is the "production" I expected .... Just not how I expected it to come about.


As for the physical part .... Fitz has better physical tools (arm / mobility) than Brady .... He just doesn't have the accuracy or ability to read defenses on his level.


He does not have anywhere near the arm that Brady does. Not saying that Brady's arm is super strong now days, but it is way more accurate than Fitz on his worst day. Fitz can scramble pretty well. That is his only strength.

Texecutioner
10-16-2014, 11:19 PM
It's not the "look" of the offense I was talking about. It's the adaptability O'Brien claimed we would implement. And that quote was from Sept 4th. He'd had all spring and summer to evaluate his squad. He should have known by the end of OTAs/mini-camp/training camp/pre-season what he had to work with and how well they were picking up the new system.

Well how do you expect him to have this adapting ability when his offense can only do a few things? They don't have the ability to adapt with all of these new strategies if they can't execute what they want to do. It is a very limited offense that is at the mercy of Fitz's few plays a game that he doesn't screw up. This is a one dimensional offense, and it can't really change until a guy gets in there that can do more.

And regarding the draft, you aren't remembering that *I* wanted Matthews or Robinson because I didn't have much faith in Newton at RT. I also wanted an ILB who could cover and play the run because none of us knew if Cushing would come back whole. Go back and check the "who should we pick @ 1-1 poll. My vote was for Robinson.


I meant the draft as a whole. I don't think it will be a good one when we look at it in hind sight a few years from now. Other than the Clowney pick though, I won't be upset still. It looked like a draft where a new coach was building the trenches which is the right direction to go if you ask me. That doesn't mean it will work just because you tried though.

Corrosion
10-16-2014, 11:19 PM
One thing I wish OB would do is incorporate the zone stretch and the bootleg off of that.

On the Bootleg when you get the defense flowing and pull the ball, you can get creative with the routes you run and you'll have guys running wide open. When we played NE in the play offs they even ran a variation of it and gashed us with it.

This team is already built for that type of action. The players know how to execute it. Just have to get Fitz up to speed, but that shouldn't be too hard. And with Fitz mobility that would be an added element that we'd have on those roll outs. The threat of him scrambling for yards would cause defenders to creep up and open up a lot of lanes for passes.

Heck, even throw in some of that Chip Kelly style offense.

We are supposed to be multiple. Lets see it. Start incorporating more things. More wrinkles.

I get how hard it is to learn a system. But these guys are NFL players. It's all they have to do.

Cak & I have been b!tching about this for two weeks or more .... :kitten:

Mr teX
10-17-2014, 10:40 AM
One thing I wish OB would do is incorporate the zone stretch and the bootleg off of that.

On the Bootleg when you get the defense flowing and pull the ball, you can get creative with the routes you run and you'll have guys running wide open. When we played NE in the play offs they even ran a variation of it and gashed us with it.

This team is already built for that type of action. The players know how to execute it. Just have to get Fitz up to speed, but that shouldn't be too hard. And with Fitz mobility that would be an added element that we'd have on those roll outs. The threat of him scrambling for yards would cause defenders to creep up and open up a lot of lanes for passes.

Heck, even throw in some of that Chip Kelly style offense.

We are supposed to be multiple. Lets see it. Start incorporating more things. More wrinkles.

I get how hard it is to learn a system. But these guys are NFL players. It's all they have to do.

When you can't convert a 3rd down to save your life, there's alot of things you don't get a chance to do. Which is why i think BoB is taking the line he is of "guys just need to play better". Getting even average better play from everyone would probably allow the offense to stay on the field more & incorporate alot of what you're saying here.

infantrycak
10-17-2014, 10:47 AM
When you can't convert a 3rd down to save your life, there's alot of things you don't get a chance to do. Which is why i think BoB is taking the line he is of "guys just need to play better". Getting even average better play from everyone would probably allow the offense to stay on the field more & incorporate alot of what you're saying here.

Serious chicken and egg problem.

thunderkyss
10-17-2014, 11:47 AM
Serious chicken and egg problem.

Are you implying that better play from the QB position can lead to all the other positions playing better?

Mr teX
10-17-2014, 11:54 AM
Are you implying that better play from the QB position can lead to all the other positions playing better?

i think he means is it really just the qb who needs to play better for everyone on offense to be better...... or is it the opposite of that.

thunderkyss
10-17-2014, 12:02 PM
i think he means is it really just the qb who needs to play better for everyone on offense to be better...... or is it the opposite of that.

:thinking:

infantrycak
10-17-2014, 12:17 PM
Are you implying that better play from the QB position can lead to all the other positions playing better?

I'm saying it can work either way. Better play from the QB making the OL or receivers look better, or better play from OL and receivers making the QB look better.

On top of that, as I mentioned in the Mallett thread, dumbing down the offense IMO makes everyone look worse if done for any length of time because it makes things easier for the D. If you play only a basic O, everyone has to perform perfectly.

EllisUnit
10-17-2014, 02:47 PM
I'm saying it can work either way. Better play from the QB making the OL or receivers look better, or better play from OL and receivers making the QB look better.

On top of that, as I mentioned in the Mallett thread, dumbing down the offense IMO makes everyone look worse if done for any length of time because it makes things easier for the D. If you play only a basic O, everyone has to perform perfectly.

At least we have or 10+ screens a game.

michaelm
10-17-2014, 03:16 PM
I have a feeling we will see some new wrinkles Monday night. I also have a feeling that #13 (http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster/Damaris-Johnson/63b2f5bc-8c58-4041-8650-c17737d9ec4d) is going to be targeted more than he has ever been. For better or worse...

BTW Texans, Johnson has been in the league for three years. Get a picture of him for his player profile for crying out loud.

Double Barrel
10-17-2014, 04:03 PM
Are you implying that better play from the QB position can lead to all the other positions playing better?

That is pretty much a football maxim.