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View Full Version : Does Anybody still BELIEVE in Case Keenum?


Lord Bills
01-07-2014, 04:12 PM
Does anybody still think he can be a successful NFL qb? Or did his play and inability to win a game for a 2-14 team enough evidence to know that that he is no good? Or do you think he still has a chance to be successful with a proper head coach and a proper team?

My personal opinion is that Keenum was placed in a bad situation with a lame duck coach, with a flawed offensive philosophy, and a bad team saddled with injuries on both sides of the ball.

I want to see what he can do with a full off season and a new coaching staff.

JCTexan
01-07-2014, 04:25 PM
I'm playing with your choice of words. Can Keenum be successful? Yes, but I don't think he will be successful. And that's why I think QB is the biggest need for the Texans.

Hervoyel
01-07-2014, 04:28 PM
I'm unsure but I think it's unlikely and more important than that I think that the window for learning whether he could ever be that guy is closed. Did he get a fair shot? Probably not but in the NFL almost no one ever gets to walk into a perfectly optimal situation. Everyone else makes do with the chance they've been given.

Nobody has time to wait for Case to develop some more. If he isn't just outright released and makes it into OTA's he'd better impress the hell out of BOB. If he does that then he'd better learn that offense inside and out before again impressing him in camp and preseason. Even then it will all more than likely be for nothing because BOB's going to bring in a starter either through the draft or free agency (and maybe both).

There should be a fourth option in the poll. "It doesn't really matter anymore".

2012Champs
01-07-2014, 04:35 PM
well if he would have won at all the team wouldnt have been a 2-14 team

The1ApplePie
01-07-2014, 04:36 PM
No.

Can we just admit that the dwindling lovefest would not exist if he was an UDFA from UCONN or Boston College that lost all of his starts?

Playoffs
01-07-2014, 04:44 PM
Fun with numbers... :kitten:

Dave Zangaro ‏@DZangaro
Case Keenum is the 2nd player in NFL history to lose 200+ yards on fewer than 20 sacks. Ken Stabler did it twice in the 70s. #Texans

Keenum was sacked 19 times for 201 yards (10.58). By comparison, Schaub was sacked 21 times for 162 yards (7.7). #Texans

If Case Keenum never starts an NFL game again, he'll go down as the only player since the merger to throw for 1,700+ yards without a win.

Yaky
01-07-2014, 04:47 PM
No.

Can we just admit that the dwindling lovefest would not exist if he was an UDFA from UCONN or Boston College that lost all of his starts?

Nick Foles was 1-6 last year. Keenum put up 31 points against the Patriots, should have been enough to get the W.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/case-keenum-1.html

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/teddy-bridgewater-1.html

EllisUnit
01-07-2014, 04:50 PM
I would like to see what he can do with foster and OD in the line up, and a compitent staff who will let the boy play his style of football instead of trying to turn him into Schaub 2.0. And people can say what they want but before the coaching staff got in his head about staying in the pocket, he was leaving the pocket and making things happen down field. Defenses can adjust all they want but that isnt the reason he began struggling.

Yes i still have faith keenum could be an above average QB. If not here he will do it some where.

HOU-TEX
01-07-2014, 04:51 PM
No

Odds are he'll be cut this offseason anyway.

Dutchrudder
01-07-2014, 04:53 PM
I think he will be a successful backup in the NFL.

ThaShark316
01-07-2014, 04:54 PM
"ehh" arm, happy feet, can't read defenses...

I believe in him on Madden NFL 25.

ATXtexanfan
01-07-2014, 05:02 PM
Case is a back up

76Texan
01-07-2014, 05:04 PM
First of all, there's a need to define "successful".

A guy who can often carry a team with timely helps from the D and ST, most probably not: the odd of winning a lottery.

A guy who can occasionally carry a team; not sure.
Heck, even Eli Manning did pretty much niata this year; nor did Matt Ryan.

A guy who can be an above average QB (see Schaub in his good and pretty good years.) Not sure. After all, it took Schaub many years to even get there.

A below average QB (17th- 25th).
Don't know either, but quite possible.

A stinky QB. Maybe, but not likely.

A solid back-up QB; highly likely, but he needs to stay upright first.

Basically, not sure.
The odds are stacked against him, like Herv or some others who had stated similar thoughts before.

Thorn
01-07-2014, 05:07 PM
Not sure.

I don't think the circumstances were really right for any QB. Not a good line, no running game. Whatever. He lost a lot, but showed some promise. I voted not sure because you just can never tell.

The Pencil Neck
01-07-2014, 05:20 PM
Lots of guys start off shaky and end up pretty good. I don't know if Case has what it takes.

So... I'm not sure.

PapaL
01-07-2014, 05:36 PM
He'll successful when he launches his car wash business in Houston. Rainbows would be a good name for it as it's the only passes he was able to complete.

76Texan
01-07-2014, 05:40 PM
He'll successful when he launches his car wash business in Houston. Rainbows would be a good name for it as it's the only passes he was able to complete.

Haha, that's a good joke.

kiwitexansfan
01-07-2014, 05:47 PM
Questionable pocket presense (happy feet), questionable short/medium accuracy.

Put NO.

Pity, would of been a nice underdog story and I did appreciate his long ball.

Lord Bills
01-07-2014, 05:50 PM
obrien is gonna run spread offense right? i think keenum with improvement and learning from his experience has a shot in the nfl. his talent is pretty evident in a lot of throws and plays he makes.

i find it hard to believe a guy who put up such staggering numbers in college who basically ran no huddle spread offense cant read a blitz or a defense.

It was kubiak who couldnt read a defense. Schaub had the same problem even before keenum was a texan. the half time struggles that keenum had was a glaring complaint by texan fans about this team way before keenum was a texan.

Experience is the best teacher and keenum certainly got that this year. People forget he was the 3rd string and was thrust into the starting line up because of schaub and yates suckage.

People gave schaub 7 years and a pro bowl laden team. People dont have patience anymore. EVerything is labeled a bust, loser, or winner right away.

Everything is so definitive nowadays.

Sigma
01-07-2014, 06:10 PM
I'm playing with your choice of words. Can Keenum be successful? Yes, but I don't think he will be successful. And that's why I think QB is the biggest need for the Texans.

this

Double Barrel
01-07-2014, 06:19 PM
I think the question comes down to if you think Keenum is capable of being taught to read defenses and make the crucial short to mid passes with accuracy in tight spaces. These are the primary knocks against him, so it really comes down to the simple premise of can he learn this stuff or not?

The kid obviously has physical talent. He can scramble and has an arm. So it is a cerebral question, and to me, it was obvious that Kubiak spent very little time with the kid to develop this stuff.

And just my speculation, but I think he was the pawn in the middle of a power struggle between the stubborn head coach and the GM/owner. If this is true to any degree, and that the FO was making Kubiak start him, what kind of attention to detail and preparation was he truly getting?

I'm not saying Kubiak undermined it, but to me, the HC was obviously to the point of burn out this season and lost his security blanket when Schaub's wheels completely fell off. What makes it curious, and perhaps gives the scenario some legs, is that Yates - i.e. no. 2 QB on the roster - was immediately bypassed to start Keenum. Yates threw a pick 6 when Schaub went down, but that in and of itself was not a reason to bench a QB based on precedent set with Schaub.

I think something else was behind Keenum starting, even to the point of it being mentioned at the press conference when they fired Kubiak. It was all very surreal and strange. Add to this that I do not think the FO is very happy with Kubiak right now. They took some shots at him a couple of times during press conferences, and it was obviously directed toward Kubiak. I do not recall anything like that when they let Capers go. Something put a burr under McNair's saddle to go there.

So my answer was "I don't know". I do agree with Spencer Tillman that Keenum will be in training camp, and the reason is simple: Case is cheap right now and doesn't cost the Texans much. You bring a lot of players into training camp, so I have little doubt that he's there as an arm. Maybe he can spark something for O'Brien to give him a shot. Who knows...

The Pencil Neck
01-07-2014, 06:32 PM
obrien is gonna run spread offense right?

Probably not.

He might be innovative and he might try a few things. He might even use the pistol and some read-option stuff if he has the right QB.

But he's not going to just go to a college-type spread offense. Remember, he was an OC at New England and he's the guy that got Gronk and Hernandez going.

If Case can fit in, great. If not, c'est la vie.

aussie_texan
01-07-2014, 06:35 PM
obrien is gonna run spread offense right?

Like the defence philosophy, BO'B will run his team depending on who will play, his overall strategy will be very adaptive and will pull ideas and plays from many styles of offence

76Texan
01-07-2014, 06:48 PM
Questionable pocket presense (happy feet), questionable short/medium accuracy.

Put NO.

Pity, would of been a nice underdog story and I did appreciate his long ball.

Fist off, for those who don't know, Kiwi and I were against Gabbert pre-draft.
It's not like we don't know each other.
We saw eye to eye why Gabbert WAS not a good prospect.

Maybe I will just bring up each and every passes so that Kiwi and Corrosion and all can tell me where they saw the fail in Keenum , not just with the team.

My work is slowing down a bit; but it can pick up anytime unlike years past.

If I ever get to it ; I will hope to create more than a doubt.
(Obviously, it will depend on the new coaching staff/)
It could just be my exercise for the off-season/

Live and learn.

Marshall
01-07-2014, 06:59 PM
No.

Can we just admit that the dwindling lovefest would not exist if he was an UDFA from UCONN or Boston College that lost all of his starts?

No. Because it's not true. Presumptive questions are inadmissible in court and common on message boards like this one. Now not liking Yankees is a whole other question. I'm having to deal with that because of our new coach. Being a Yankee doesn't guarantee they're an arrogant snob, but it sure increases the chances.

kiwitexansfan
01-07-2014, 07:04 PM
Fist off, for those who don't know, Kiwi and I were against Gabbert pre-draft.
It's not like we don't know each other.
We saw eye to eye why Gabbert WAS not a good prospect.

Maybe I will just bring up each and every passes so that Kiwi and Corrosion and all can tell me where they saw the fail in Keenum , not just with the team.

My work is slowing down a bit; but it can pick up anytime unlike years past.

If I ever get to it ; I will hope to create more than a doubt.
(Obviously, it will depend on the new coaching staff/)
It could just be my exercise for the off-season/

Live and learn.

The reason I list happy feet is the way he ran away from pressure and took big sacks. Not the same as Gabbert's issues necessarily but a real bug bear for me.

Yaky
01-07-2014, 07:24 PM
The reason I list happy feet is the way he ran away from pressure and took big sacks. Not the same as Gabbert's issues necessarily but a real bug bear for me.

The OLine sucked even before Keenum become a starter. Schaub was one of the most pressured QBs in the league when he was a starter. No QB would have looked good behind this OL.

How could a QB not develop happy feet when he is under constant pressure?

The Texans were tanking were Keenum become the starter. No hot reads for him when he was blitzed.

tvaughan
01-07-2014, 07:33 PM
I don't think any of our QBs are as bad as they played this year. I think they will all play better in different environments when they get their next shot. There was something seriously wrong with this offense on a lot of levels.

thunderkyss
01-07-2014, 07:33 PM
I think that 200 yards on less than 20 sacks shows that Keenum needs to learn when to hold'em & when to fold him. The game needs to slow down for him. & he needs more time in the saddle.

But I don't think he is any more likely to be successful than Tj.

Maybe O'Brien doesn't bring in a vet. Maybe we start the season with Bridgewater/Bortles, Yates, & Keenum competing for the starting job. That wouldn't be so bad, would it? I doubt we win more than 6 games against the weakest schedule we've had in a while.... maye our weakest.

But whatever.

chicagotexan2
01-07-2014, 07:42 PM
I believe keenum can lead this team to the promises land if he starts wearing ascots, Windsor knot and bow ties, calf skinnes Capri pants and jimmy choo shoes.

No I don't think keenum should be our starter because he was never able read blitzes and I have no reason to believe that'll change.

76Texan
01-07-2014, 07:49 PM
The reason I list happy feet is the way he ran away from pressure and took big sacks. Not the same as Gabbert's issues necessarily but a real bug bear for me.

I agree.
It wasn't any different from Lucky saying the same thing when he was in college.
He couldn't trust the O-line enough.

Now there was a guy that the Pats took a few years ago; it wasn't in the equation.

What you and I knew was thAt either Gabbert had good protection or his receivers bailed him out.

Obviously, he did well for a college QB.
It was never hating, just a fair evaluation to the next level.

To be absolutely honest, I would have never given Keemum a chance except for the amount of pressure he faced in college.

People think I went for the numbers
I never did.

76Texan
01-07-2014, 08:03 PM
So far Keenum has yet to demonstrate the smart that I think he needs to.

dalemurphy
01-07-2014, 08:45 PM
I saw plenty of positives to be excited about. Clearly, though, he failed to take advantage of his opportunity in a way that would rally the team, coaching staff, and organization around him as the team's future. It was a very difficult situation. However, difficult situations are the ones containing unique opportunities. Nobody can say with certainty whether he could succeed as a starting NFL QB or not. His resume, after last year's opportunity, continues to indicate that it is unlikely and it would be unwise to build a team around that assumption.

I'm glad he's on the roster... Who knows what the future holds.

Texan_Bill
01-07-2014, 08:57 PM
No

Odds are he'll be cut this offseason anyway.

Hey Bro, I disagree with you. I think he has a career as, well, maybe a career as a backup (and I hate to say this, given these troubled times) ala Gary Kubiak behind Elway at Denver.

CloakNNNdagger
01-07-2014, 09:13 PM
As others have said before, despite his feet being pretty happy, he usually had poor support........by the OL.....and the hot read receiver routes (virtually nonexistent)........and the play calling (including his inability to audible). Whether he gets his fair chance going through a full OTA and preseason to truly compete with any incoming QBs is another matter. If he get an honest chance with good coaching, I still believe that he can possibly make others believe.

eriadoc
01-07-2014, 09:18 PM
Can he? Sure. Here? Depends entirely upon BO'B. We shall see. Keenum was always going to be a developmental QB. It just boils down to someone developing him. I don't have to stretch my imagination much to envision him being as successful as Alex Smith, for example.

htowntexans1985
01-07-2014, 09:33 PM
Nah, something about him isnt quite their. Reminds me of Colt McCoy 2.0. Good college QB but career backup.

ubecool454
01-07-2014, 10:15 PM
Does anybody still think he can be a successful NFL qb? Or did his play and inability to win a game for a 2-14 team enough evidence to know that that he is no good? Or do you think he still has a chance to be successful with a proper head coach and a proper team?

My personal opinion is that Keenum was placed in a bad situation with a lame duck coach, with a flawed offensive philosophy, and a bad team saddled with injuries on both sides of the ball.

I want to see what he can do with a full off season and a new coaching staff.

I voted no.

HOU-TEX
01-08-2014, 10:51 AM
Hey Bro, I disagree with you. I think he has a career as, well, maybe a career as a backup (and I hate to say this, given these troubled times) ala Gary Kubiak behind Elway at Denver.

Possibly, but it'd be hard for a coach to get behind him given what's on film. What he learned (or was supposed to learn) in the meeting rooms never translated to the field. It's like the more he learned the worse he got as the season progressed. Maybe it was too much for him to gather? Dunno, but I wouldn't be willing to hand over the offense to a QB the doesn't read defenses. Starter goes down week 1 and he'll be the one we're stuck with? I'll respectfully pass

Wolf6151
01-08-2014, 04:17 PM
I believe in Case Keenum, not saying he'll ever be a great starter but I think he's adequate/good for a backup. Evaluating Keenum under the circumstances of last season is truly unfair. He became the starter under terrible conditions with very little/no prep time, an antiquated offensive system that the league figured out years ago, a head coach that was to stubborn or blind to change his system, a team that had quit on the coach, an O-line that was terrible, and a running game that was almost non-existent due to injury. No QB in the league would succeed under those circumstances. Hell even AJ was dropping balls that hit him in the hands.

Txn_in_Oki
01-08-2014, 05:37 PM
I believe in Case Keenum, not saying he'll ever be a great starter but I think he's adequate/good for a backup. Evaluating Keenum under the circumstances of last season is truly unfair. He became the starter under terrible conditions with very little/no prep time, an antiquated offensive system that the league figured out years ago, a head coach that was to stubborn or blind to change his system, a team that had quit on the coach, an O-line that was terrible, and a running game that was almost non-existent due to injury. No QB in the league would succeed under those circumstances. Hell even AJ was dropping balls that hit him in the hands.

Why is there always excuses being made? There's always something about the o-line or the d-line or the receivers or the tight ends or the blah blah dee blah. Brady came into his first game in the fourth quarter of his second season and never looked back. Good Qbs get the job done with what they have. Keenum couldn't get it done. With all those records in college you would think he could though. He's Kubiak's guy and I don't think O'Brien is going to have space for Kubiak's guys.

Great college QB, but I don't think being a starter in the pros is in his future.

Maybe I've become old and cynical, but I don't get the idea of clinging to a player just because they went to a certain school, or they're local, or they just need one more year. I like certain players, but in this day and age I have loyalty to what's best for the team, not an individual.

Seegara
01-08-2014, 06:50 PM
Word is Texans will draft QB Blake Bortles at 1.1. I think I like the idea.

speedfreek
01-08-2014, 07:01 PM
Bortles? DO NOT WANT.

Give me Clowney. Bortles is definitely a second round QB.
I've watched that guy for a couple of years now-- both
in CUSA and in the AAC. Definitely not worth #1 overall..

I would take Manziel over that guy in a heartbeat. (and
I'm not sure Johnny will be a good pro..)

burro
01-08-2014, 07:18 PM
Why is there always excuses being made? There's always something about the o-line or the d-line or the receivers or the tight ends or the blah blah dee blah. Brady came into his first game in the fourth quarter of his second season and never looked back. Good Qbs get the job done with what they have. Keenum couldn't get it done. With all those records in college you would think he could though. He's Kubiak's guy and I don't think O'Brien is going to have space for Kubiak's guys.

Great college QB, but I don't think being a starter in the pros is in his future.

Maybe I've become old and cynical, but I don't get the idea of clinging to a player just because they went to a certain school, or they're local, or they just need one more year. I like certain players, but in this day and age I have loyalty to what's best for the team, not an individual.

Good HC's get the job done with what they have...a good QB is worthless if the HC and his philosophy are ****.

Txn_in_Oki
01-08-2014, 07:20 PM
Good HC's get the job done with what they have...a good QB is worthless if the HC and his philosophy are ****.

So you think the blame with the coach? That Keenum can't pick up a blitz because of the coach?

badboy
01-08-2014, 07:23 PM
I would like to see what he can do with foster and OD in the line up, and a compitent staff who will let the boy play his style of football instead of trying to turn him into Schaub 2.0. And people can say what they want but before the coaching staff got in his head about staying in the pocket, he was leaving the pocket and making things happen down field. Defenses can adjust all they want but that isnt the reason he began struggling.

Yes i still have faith keenum could be an above average QB. If not here he will do it some where.Agreed. I think focus will be on new QB and Case will have to learn as he goes. 2014 last contract year. Odds against him but when have they not been?

burro
01-08-2014, 07:37 PM
So you think the blame with the coach? That Keenum can't pick up a blitz because of the coach?

If he wasn't properly coached to pick up a blitz, then yes. Was Kubiak calling plays that we're designed to beat the blitz knowing that it was coming on every play? Given that we're talking about a HC, who didn't allow even Schaub to make adjustments on the line, it's not far fetched to assume that Keenum wasn't given that option either, meaning no blocking audibles.

HCs are very important to the development of players, it's not making excuses to say that a bad HC may have sabotaged the beginning of a young career with his incompetence.

PapaL
01-08-2014, 07:51 PM
If he wasn't properly coached to pick up a blitz, then yes. Was Kubiak calling plays that we're designed to beat the blitz knowing that it was coming on every play? Given that we're talking about a HC, who didn't allow even Schaub to make adjustments on the line, it's not far fetched to assume that Keenum wasn't given that option either, meaning no blocking audibles.

HCs are very important to the development of players, it's not making excuses to say that a bad HC may have sabotaged the beginning of a young career with his incompetence.

In his six years in college, did he ever see a blitz? Did he ever read a defense? Schaub sure did put up numbers in this offense.

When he was given a chance it was a great move. When he was benched because he was struggling it was a horrible move. But now it's the coaches fault for ruining his career?

burro
01-08-2014, 08:06 PM
In his six years in college, did he ever see a blitz? Did he ever read a defense? Schaub sure did put up numbers in this offense.

When he was given a chance it was a great move. When he was benched because he was struggling it was a horrible move. But now it's the coaches fault for ruining his career?

No QB can operate in a 2 second window. Our Oline play was atrocious this year and it's no coincidence that Schaub stopped putting up those big numbers after the great olines we used to have were gone.

I don't buy that benching Schaub and starting Keenum was entirely, if at all, Kubiak's decision. Kubiak was fired after he benched Keenum for the second time and McNair made it clear that Keenum was the starter moving forward. I highly doubt that a lame duck Kubiak was putting in a full shift for a QB he probably didn't want starting in the first place.

PapaL
01-08-2014, 08:16 PM
No QB can operate in a 2 second window. Our Oline play was atrocious this year and it's no coincidence that Schaub stopped putting up those big numbers after the great olines we used to have were gone.

I don't buy that benching Schaub and starting Keenum was entirely, if at all, Kubiak's decision. Kubiak was fired after he benched Keenum for the second time and McNair made it clear that Keenum was the starter moving forward. I highly doubt that a lame duck Kubiak was putting in a full shift for a QB he probably didn't want starting in the first place.

Remember when we had our first QB how terrible the OL was? How he would scramble himself into sacks and bad plays? The record setting OL we had? What happened the year after he left? We got a QB that played behind the same line, made reads, and got rid of the ball. All in the same offense. When your QB is doing ridiculous things it doesn't help the OL at all.

Again, I see lots of excuses, "Kubiak probably". At what point do you start looking at the QB as the problem? Hell even as PART of the problem.

badboy
01-08-2014, 08:20 PM
Remember when we had our first QB how terrible the OL was? How he would scramble himself into sacks and bad plays? The record setting OL we had? What happened the year after he left? We got a QB that played behind the same line, made reads, and got rid of the ball. All in the same offense. When your QB is doing ridiculous things it doesn't help the OL at all.

Again, I see lots of excuses, "Kubiak probably". At what point do you start looking at the QB as the problem? Hell even as PART of the problem.
when the QB gets a full season with a healthy starting RB & Oline. No one thinks TB or Bortles would do great with same line.

Txn_in_Oki
01-08-2014, 08:28 PM
Again, I see lots of excuses, "Kubiak probably". At what point do you start looking at the QB as the problem? Hell even as PART of the problem.

It just comes across as if Keenum is the savior of this franchise and that his problems this year are not of his own making. I mean, he's the all time leading such and such for the NCAA, it can't be his fault.

badboy
01-08-2014, 08:35 PM
It just comes across as if Keenum is the savior of this franchise and that his problems this year are not of his own making. I mean, he's the all time leading such and such for the NCAA, it can't be his fault.Most Keenum fans recognize his shortcomings but want same other QBs get. Usually, QBs are given two seasons (yeah, yeah RG3, Luck blah blah blah) most get two. Case has had 1/2 a season behind an injured left and right tackle. Brooks was in first year as a starter. Wade Smith..whahaha.

Just be fair in evaluation.

Txn_in_Oki
01-08-2014, 08:37 PM
Most Keenum fans recognize his shortcomings but want same other QBs get. Usually, QBs are given two seasons (yeah, yeah RG3, Luck blah blah blah) most get two. Case has had 1/2 a season behind an injured left and right tackle. Brooks was in first year as a starter. Wade Smith..whahaha.

Just be fair in evaluation.

I just don't believe that he has shown enough to not hunt for a new QB. I wanted him to come in and tear it up more than anything. I'm not hating on the kid, he's done great things, I just was hoping for more.

burro
01-08-2014, 08:55 PM
Remember when we had our first QB how terrible the OL was? How he would scramble himself into sacks and bad plays? The record setting OL we had? What happened the year after he left? We got a QB that played behind the same line, made reads, and got rid of the ball. All in the same offense. When your QB is doing ridiculous things it doesn't help the OL at all.

Again, I see lots of excuses, "Kubiak probably". At what point do you start looking at the QB as the problem? Hell even as PART of the problem.

Fair points, and it speaks to the importance of a good HC in a QB's development. Carr was never properly developed early on and was too broken to fix by the time Kubiak got here. Carr was also a lazy student, which doesn't appear to a problem with Keenum.

Of course QB was part of the problem, but the bottom line is that I'm not going to call Keenum a failure after his first season as a starter, in which he took over the lead role on a cartoonishly bad football team and performed 'okay', even showing flashes of goodness despite the ineptitude of his HC. At what point is a team's struggles out of the QB's control?

badboy
01-08-2014, 08:59 PM
I just don't believe that he has shown enough to not hunt for a new QB. I wanted him to come in and tear it up more than anything. I'm not hating on the kid, he's done great things, I just was hoping for more.Schuab and Yates gone so of course Qb or 2 needed. I just want to see Newton healthy and Keenum with a full roster & Wade Smith gone.

revan
01-08-2014, 09:16 PM
I wonder if Raiders fans say the same thing about Matt McGloin. Never seen such stubborness for a third string QB. Basically he needs the perfect coach, perfect OL, perfect scenario to succeed and he wasn't given a fair shot. Well if we had that perfect team he would still be on the inactive list and Schaub would be in the playoffs right now behind that perfect offense.

infantrycak
01-08-2014, 10:04 PM
Remember when we had our first QB how terrible the OL was? How he would scramble himself into sacks and bad plays? The record setting OL we had? What happened the year after he left? We got a QB that played behind the same line, made reads, and got rid of the ball. All in the same offense. When your QB is doing ridiculous things it doesn't help the OL at all.

Again, I see lots of excuses, "Kubiak probably". At what point do you start looking at the QB as the problem? Hell even as PART of the problem.

Spot on.

Same OL
43 sacks to 22
28th to 12th total offense.
27th passing to 11th.
21st rushing to 22nd

Oh and AJ to half a season of AJ

The QB makes a ton of difference. This season was sadly entertaining in this regard. The same OL went from doing an OK job, it's on Schaub, to Keenum doesn't have a chance behind them. The QB made a ton of difference all right - the rationalization flipped completely.

thunderkyss
01-08-2014, 10:31 PM
This season was sadly entertaining in this regard. The same OL went from doing an OK job, it's on Schaub, to Keenum doesn't have a chance behind them. The QB made a ton of difference all right - the rationalization flipped completely.

The one I liked best, was, "They didn't blitz Schaub as much."

Well duh... there's a reason for that.

Wolf6151
01-09-2014, 12:23 AM
It just comes across as if Keenum is the savior of this franchise and that his problems this year are not of his own making. I mean, he's the all time leading such and such for the NCAA, it can't be his fault.

I haven't seen anyone implicate that Keenum is "the savior of the franchise". I'm simply saying that he hasn't had a real evaluation because of the lack of coaching, running game, injuries to the O-line, and a team that completely quit midseason. He's good enough to be on the roster in training camp next season and I think he makes the roster as depth at QB.

76Texan
01-09-2014, 12:39 AM
In his six years in college, did he ever see a blitz? Did he ever read a defense? Schaub sure did put up numbers in this offense.



I know you know I think any discussion about Keenum is fruitless, I just want to answer your questions.

Yes he saw blitzes in college and burned them badly.
The good teams eventually decided to drop eight instead, with varied results.
S.Miss made him worked hard for the money, while Penn St. Was shredded to pieces.
At least, O'Brien must have watched that game to evaluate his players when he took the HC job there.

The notion that he can't read defense is ridiculous.
The guy made up seventeen points against one of Saban's best defense as a freshman.
That team had some eight or nine defensive players drafted to the NFL, and the rest joined the pro level as UDFAs. That's as close to an NFL defense you'll ever get in college.

Norg
01-09-2014, 12:48 AM
I don't know maybe he will get a 2nd chance somewhere else odds aint lookin good for him here tho

WolverineFan
01-09-2014, 12:53 AM
The notion that he can't read defense is ridiculous.
The guy made up seventeen points against one of Saban's best defense as a freshman.
That team had some eight or nine defensive players drafted to the NFL, and the rest joined the pro level as UDFAs. That's as close to an NFL defense you'll ever get in college.

1) We've been over this before with that Saban defense. It was his first year at Bama and only 4 guys from that starting defense were eventually drafted (and 2 were freshmen the year Keenum played them). That defense was literally nothing like the ones he's fielded the past 4 years.

2) "Reading" defenses in college is much different than the NFL, especially in an offense like Sumlin's at UH. All the adjustments were made on the sideline by the coaches. The progressions aren't full-field reads, they are half-field reads designed to make it easy for the QB to hit quick passes. He's not really even "reading the defense" on most of those plays. A lot of the time they would overload and get a 3-2 or run a combo route with a chip to get someone open. He usually would read a S or LB and whichever guy he didn't cover is who the ball went to.

I know you're a Keenum supporter and I'm not trying to start another argument here. Just pointing out some things I disagreed with in your post.

76Texan
01-09-2014, 01:54 AM
1) We've been over this before with that Saban defense. It was his first year at Bama and only 4 guys from that starting defense were eventually drafted (and 2 were freshmen the year Keenum played them). That defense was literally nothing like the ones he's fielded the past 4 years.

2) "Reading" defenses in college is much different than the NFL, especially in an offense like Sumlin's at UH. All the adjustments were made on the sideline by the coaches. The progressions aren't full-field reads, they are half-field reads designed to make it easy for the QB to hit quick passes. He's not really even "reading the defense" on most of those plays. A lot of the time they would overload and get a 3-2 or run a combo route with a chip to get someone open. He usually would read a S or LB and whichever guy he didn't cover is who the ball went to.

I know you're a Keenum supporter and I'm not trying to start another argument here. Just pointing out some things I disagreed with in your post.

1. You're right. I mean 8 or 9 of all players on the team were drafted (maybe even more); and we know the offense can keep the opponent's offense off the field, limiting the opportunities.
Don't forget that Prince Hall was an All-American freshman the previous year, and was destined to be a first round draft pick until his career went astray.
And don't forget that the Tides was winning big until they had several players suspended.
Regardless, that team still had a lot of defensive players joining the NFL as UDFAs, some of them are still active.
What about Oregon that year? They had a good defense, including the entire backfield (I think) being drafted to the NFL, and Keenum was gaining on them, too.
The key is that he was a freshman.

2. Whether it was Sumlin or Briles, the offense was not a half-field read.
When I broke down a couple of games, play by play, in the college football forum at the time, I mentioned complete, whole-field read.
It was the same misconception as with Cam Newton, whose games I also broke down, not quite as extensively, but in depth enough to show that at times, he even made five reads (which means all reads), and I noted that it was one of the reasons why I strongly endorsed Newton as 1.1
I even mentioned some article in which Montana wasn't asked by Bill Walsh to go to a full read until his fourth or fifth year in the NFL, so yes, I do know about them things.

76Texan
01-09-2014, 02:31 AM
Obviously, a college defense is not going to be as extensive as in the pros.

I evaluated Kellen Moore and Russell Wilson, and I saw the difference in the offensive schemes.
That was why I was very adamant about wanting Wilson.
At the time, I even said that I don't know whether Wilson or Keenum faced more pressure (but both did, a whole lot more than the other QBs, including RGIII - who was third in "seeing pressure on a consistent basis.)
All three did well against pressures and blitzes.

The selling point for me is always that.
And it was why I wanted the Texans to take both Wilson and Keenum.
I'm a supporter of good QB's play, not just Keenum.

What I saw in Keenum the last 2-3 games weren't the guy I studied.
Remember a quote where Keenum said "I need to trust my protection better"; that was when it became counter-intuitive to him. He started hanging around in the pocket half to a second longer. That's not the optimum for shorter QBs.
Sure, you will have to find a balance before you can dream of being a Drew Brees.

How did Wilson kill the Texans?
Definitely not by staying in the pocket.

There's pros and cons.
There's a learning curve so that you can realize how much you can scramble, and when to scramble.
Hell, even Drew Brees was "ran out of town" before he found a happy place.

And remember, I'm not anti-Manziel either.
The short guys need to learn to maximize what they do best while minimizing what there stature limit them to.

I'm still very unconvinced about Keenum/
He's supposed to be a very smart QB, and that's the only way he can be a successful NFL QB.
I'm not going to stand behind stupid decision making.
Even if it's Brett Favre or Warren Moon.

PapaL
01-09-2014, 07:42 AM
when the QB gets a full season with a healthy starting RB & Oline. No one thinks TB or Bortles would do great with same line.

What has he been doing the 2 years he's been here? If not learning the playbook, observing the then ProBowl starter, and trying to get better? You make it sound like he was pulled from the stands and asked to just play. He spent the entire 2012 season on the PS, as well as six weeks before becoming the starter in the 2013. When he looked good for those 2 weeks it was all his hard work but when he fell apart like Ford Pinto afterwards it was the coaches fault right?

dream_team
01-09-2014, 10:23 AM
So why does Case get more than 8 games to prove he's a starting QB in this league, but TJ only got to play less than a half where he was instantly spotted a big deficit? I don't think either of them is the answer, but I'm just surprised how many people are willing to give him so many chances. He'll, why not give Schaub another chance with BOB?

eriadoc
01-09-2014, 11:02 AM
So why does Case get more than 8 games to prove he's a starting QB in this league, but TJ only got to play less than a half where he was instantly spotted a big deficit? I don't think either of them is the answer, but I'm just surprised how many people are willing to give him so many chances. He'll, why not give Schaub another chance with BOB?

Why does any QB get longer than 8 games? Hell, our newly drafted QB should get 8 games, right?

Double Barrel
01-09-2014, 11:07 AM
The QB makes a ton of difference. This season was sadly entertaining in this regard. The same OL went from doing an OK job, it's on Schaub, to Keenum doesn't have a chance behind them. The QB made a ton of difference all right - the rationalization flipped completely.

Well, to be objective, we also have to consider that Keenun did not get near the reps in OTA and pre-season that Schaub received, Keenum is basically a rookie being compared to an 8 year veteran, and Keenum did not have the benefit of two key anti-blitz personnel with Foster and Daniels out. Tate sucked at picking up blitzes and OD was always a short yardage security blanket for Shaub.

I'm not making a case for Keenum (no pun intended), but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. I think each QB can be analyzed and evaluated independently of each other's circumstances. Schaub has no excuses for throwing four pick 6's in four games. With Keenum inexperience bit him in the ass and the team around him was falling apart.

I still don't think we have a franchise QB in the city of Houston right now, fwiw.

eriadoc
01-09-2014, 11:09 AM
I still don't think we have a franchise QB in the city of Houston right now, fwiw.

I think that should be obvious at this point. As I said in another thread, you have to be a pretty special QB to overcome a bad team. Whatever Keenum's good traits might be, special isn't one of them.

Trail.Blazr
01-09-2014, 11:25 AM
Not Sure. For anyone hoping to see that cinderalla story similar to 2001 Bledsoe/Brady, it wasn't witnessed with 2013 Schaub/Keenum. I don't care to get into any particular comparison's beyond Keenum wasn't the 2nd coming of Brady in 2013.

That said, I WOULDN'T want to be a QB behind the 2013 Texan's O-Line. I'm not saying he was without fault himself, but there are legitimate questions that would suggest success would be a stretch.

If I was a NO, I'd say dump him now. But I'd rather see him on the training camp roster and have to compete for a no.1 spot. I'd say that unlike season's past, where is UDFA status may have limited his looks/snaps/opportunities to crack the starting role legitimately, 2014 should be a different story.

infantrycak
01-09-2014, 12:21 PM
Well, to be objective, we also have to consider that Keenun did not get near the reps in OTA and pre-season that Schaub received, Keenum is basically a rookie being compared to an 8 year veteran, and Keenum did not have the benefit of two key anti-blitz personnel with Foster and Daniels out. Tate sucked at picking up blitzes and OD was always a short yardage security blanket for Shaub.

I'm not making a case for Keenum (no pun intended), but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. I think each QB can be analyzed and evaluated independently of each other's circumstances. Schaub has no excuses for throwing four pick 6's in four games. With Keenum inexperience bit him in the ass and the team around him was falling apart.

I still don't think we have a franchise QB in the city of Houston right now, fwiw.

For my point it doesn't have to be apples to apples on the QBs because I was not comparing them in my post - I was comparing fan reaction or "analysis." It doesn't really matter who the two QBs were or their backgrounds. The OL played pretty much the same throughout the season. When QB X was in the game "the OL was just fine, the bad results are on the QB." When QB Y was in the game it became "the OL sucks, you can't really blame the QB." The fact is they both sucked (in different ways) when pressured behind the same OL this season.

76Texan
01-09-2014, 01:38 PM
For my point it doesn't have to be apples to apples on the QBs because I was not comparing them in my post - I was comparing fan reaction or "analysis." It doesn't really matter who the two QBs were or their backgrounds. The OL played pretty much the same throughout the season. When QB X was in the game "the OL was just fine, the bad results are on the QB." When QB Y was in the game it became "the OL sucks, you can't really blame the QB." The fact is they both sucked (in different ways) when pressured behind the same OL this season.

You don't think an injury can get worse?
You don't think a team morale can get worse?

More power to you. I'm a sunshiner, too, not to that extent, however.

Lord Bills
01-09-2014, 01:40 PM
why is it so hard for people to believe and understand that players can improve?

people act as if keenum is 30 years old and has been in the league for 5 years.

This is what happens in the social media age where everybody is a publisher and people make definitive statements based off one game, one year.

If BO'B is as great, talented, and intelligent as a lot of people make him out to be, he will see keenum's talent.

Players do improve.

Lord Bills
01-09-2014, 01:45 PM
I wonder if Raiders fans say the same thing about Matt McGloin. Never seen such stubborness for a third string QB. Basically he needs the perfect coach, perfect OL, perfect scenario to succeed and he wasn't given a fair shot. Well if we had that perfect team he would still be on the inactive list and Schaub would be in the playoffs right now behind that perfect offense.

please stop that BS right now. Ive seen your act on the texans main message board and you are a hardcore matt schaub fan.

that post right there was a post made by anti matt schaub fans.

Very scumbag move to use it on keenum considering he's the one that didnt have the great line, the great running back, the great coach.

Matt Schaub had 3 pro bowl offensive linemen, a pro bowl running back, a pro bowl tight end, and a pro bowl wide reciever in johnson. Yet he had trouble scoring TDs and barely beat andy dalton.

How long has schaub been in the nfl? how long has keenum been in? smdh....

Did Keenum have six pro bowlers on offense like schaub did?

stop that nonsense right now. You can say that about schaub's seven years and loaded rosters, you cant say that about keenum and the situation he was put in this year.

infantrycak
01-09-2014, 01:45 PM
You don't think an injury can get worse?
You don't think a team morale can get worse?

More power to you. I'm a sunshiner, too, not to that extent, however.

Don't fly off into lala land. I am not aware of any injuries which got worse. If anything DB's injury was worst at the beginning of the season. Overall I do not believe the OL play changed appreciably.

This is hardly shocking news as people were being called out on having different standards for the OL very early on in Keenum starting. There was an almost immediate shift in the "analysis" of the OL.

But thanks for illustrating. Yeah, now Keenum didn't get the same OL play because of morale.

Did Keenum have six pro bowlers on offense like schaub did?

He had 4. How many does he need?

Lord Bills
01-09-2014, 01:50 PM
Don't fly off into lala land. I am not aware of any injuries which got worse. If anything DB's injury was worst at the beginning of the season. Overall I do not believe the OL play changed appreciably.

This is hardly shocking news as people were being called out on having different standards for the OL very early on in Keenum starting. There was an almost immediate shift in the "analysis" of the OL.

But thanks for illustrating. Yeah, now Keenum didn't get the same OL play because of morale.


why would that be hard to believe?

you dont think players morale and determination make a difference in performance?

76Texan
01-09-2014, 01:54 PM
Don't fly off into lala land. I am not aware of any injuries which got worse. If anything DB's injury was worst at the beginning of the season. Overall I do not believe the OL play changed appreciably.

This is hardly shocking news as people were being called out on having different standards for the OL very early on in Keenum starting. There was an almost immediate shift in the "analysis" of the OL.

But thanks for illustrating. Yeah, now Keenum didn't get the same OL play because of morale.

Thank you for your response ;
I'd like to tell to you another thing though; it wasn't like they were not trying hard.
Unlike others, I appreciate the works; it wasn't enough.
There are enough blame to go around.

Remember I was among the fews who did not put everything on Schaub last year?

infantrycak
01-09-2014, 01:56 PM
why would that be hard to believe?

you dont think players morale and determination make a difference in performance?

Because I saw no such thing on the field. I saw very consistent line play with the exception of DB's early struggles lessening (not disappearing) and Brooks getting better.

Y'all are just throwing out hypothetical BS and assuming it all favors Keenum.

HOU-TEX
01-09-2014, 01:59 PM
A lot of these posts are bringing back memories of the HWWNBN era, who could do no wrong.

Lord Bills
01-09-2014, 02:04 PM
Because I saw no such thing on the field. I saw very consistent line play with the exception of DB's early struggles lessening (not disappearing) and Brooks getting better.

Y'all are just throwing out hypothetical BS and assuming it all favors Keenum.

just because you didnt see it doesnt mean it didnt happen. There were plenty of times analysts and radio people have said texans players were just going through the motions.

There was nothing consistent about our oline play. Effort and competitive fire matter in the game.

You dont have great effort, determination and competitive fire and only get 2 wins in an nfl season with the talent we have on our team.

2-14.

That is a fact. Not hypothetical BS and assumptions. Ive followed sports enough to know that if you are in a bad losing situations, players dont try hard enough and just go through the motions. They already got their money.

Considering the whole drama surrounding matt schaub with fans reacting to his whole pick six situation (the burger, the freeway signs, fans heckling him in his house) along with the coaching staff's wishy washy decision on who should play quarterback, this team was cooked mentally and it showed on the field.

infantrycak
01-09-2014, 02:09 PM
Reading is not your strong suit. I didn't say the OL played well or great. I said it played consistently over the season. Now try this concept on for size, a unit can be consistent at either a high or low level.

Lord Bills
01-09-2014, 02:11 PM
A lot of these posts are bringing back memories of the HWWNBN era, who could do no wrong.

yea because david carr came mid season, thrust into the starting line up, and only had 8 games to prove himself with a 2-14 roster.

totally comparable to case keenum....



:bravo:

Lord Bills
01-09-2014, 02:13 PM
Reading is not your strong suit. I didn't say the OL played well or great. I said it played consistently over the season. Now try this concept on for size, a unit can be consistent at either a high or low level.

smdh.....

not gonna say anything for fear of being banned. You've clearly made your point with your countless red reps that you will go against me at anything.

peace moderator.

HOU-TEX
01-09-2014, 02:15 PM
yea because david carr came mid season, thrust into the starting line up, and only had 8 games to prove himself with a 2-14 roster.

totally comparable to case keenum....



:bravo:

Not sure what that has to do with my point, but whatev makes you sleep better at night.

Good day, Case

Lord Bills
01-09-2014, 02:18 PM
A lot of these posts are bringing back memories of the HWWNBN era, who could do no wrong.

yea because david carr came mid season, thrust into the starting line up, and only had 8 games to prove himself with a 2-14 roster.

totally comparable to case keenum....



:bravo:

Not sure what that has to do with my point, but whatev makes you sleep better at night.

Good day, Case


............................

76Texan
01-09-2014, 02:24 PM
As I've said; it's a fruitless debate.
I love my team; Inlove my O-line
It was OK for some to tear Myers apart a few years ago, but it's not constructive criticism when I mentioned Wade Smith's chronic knee problem while praising him as a warrior?

Did I say Keenum is a long shot from the start?
Yes I did.
So please understand that I know all the shortcomings.
At the same time; l still have to defend the underdog (while not being blind).

Fighting for the underdog is a good thing; hope is a good thing; blind hope is not.

HOU-TEX
01-09-2014, 02:41 PM
............................

*sigh* My point was directed at some of y'alls post sounding similar to when he was around. Never did I compare one player to the other.

JB
01-09-2014, 04:03 PM
*sigh* My point was directed at some of y'alls post sounding similar to when he was around. Never did I compare one player to the other.

Reading comprehension is becoming a lost art in these parts

TejasTom
01-09-2014, 06:28 PM
Reading comprehension is becoming a lost art in these parts

I lost an art project in this grade. :)

chenjy9
01-09-2014, 06:51 PM
Can Keenum become a legit starter? Sure he can! Does that mean we should use our number 1 pick on anyone not a QB because of Keenum? Hell no!

revan
01-09-2014, 09:49 PM
please stop that BS right now. Ive seen your act on the texans main message board and you are a hardcore matt schaub fan.

that post right there was a post made by anti matt schaub fans.

Very scumbag move to use it on keenum considering he's the one that didnt have the great line, the great running back, the great coach.

Matt Schaub had 3 pro bowl offensive linemen, a pro bowl running back, a pro bowl tight end, and a pro bowl wide reciever in johnson. Yet he had trouble scoring TDs and barely beat andy dalton.

How long has schaub been in the nfl? how long has keenum been in? smdh....

Did Keenum have six pro bowlers on offense like schaub did?

stop that nonsense right now. You can say that about schaub's seven years and loaded rosters, you cant say that about keenum and the situation he was put in this year.

Oh my gawd!!! What is your problem?! We are talking about a third string QB who didn't win a dam game and you go on a rampage giving negative rep and putting a comment to make sure I come back and see your reply?!. Dude get over yourself, the Texans are not going to build around Keenum to give him the perfect offense he needs to "succeed" and be "given a chance". And yeah I was a fan of Schaub, because he was part of the team, what am I supposed to do watch a Texans game and be in a pissed off mood the whole time because Schaub is at QB and not someone else??!!. The only difference between me and you is that I put away my #8 jersey and I'm ready for a change, you are still clinging to Keenum.

chenjy9
01-09-2014, 10:54 PM
I will be the first to say I don't mind giving Keenum another look during TC and Preseason as Bridgewater gets caught up, but the Texans would be idiots for not taking a QB in the first round IMO. I am on the Bridgewater wagon if anyone can't tell. Can't stand Manziel and the Carr name has too much dark history with me... Bortles intrigues me though.

Tolar's Ghost
01-09-2014, 11:46 PM
Here are two related questions:

Does O'Brien's give Keenum a chance to stick as a back-up?

Or does he cut him early on?

eriadoc
01-10-2014, 12:16 AM
Here are two related questions:

Does O'Brien's give Keenum a chance to stick as a back-up?

Or does he cut him early on?

I think he'll take a look at him. He knows Keenum is young, and perhaps more importantly, cheap. He'll take a look at him in training camp and see what he shows.

kiwitexansfan
01-10-2014, 02:43 AM
I think he'll take a look at him. He knows Keenum is young, and perhaps more importantly, cheap. He'll take a look at him in training camp and see what he shows.

I think cheap with experience puts Keenum in an ok spot to stick in the 53.

PapaL
01-10-2014, 08:52 AM
I think cheap with experience puts Keenum in an ok spot to stick in the 53.

That's what she said. :clap:

Hervoyel
01-10-2014, 09:16 AM
I absolutely still believe in Case Keenum. There have been countless sightings and several people have taken photographs of him in his natural environment. Granted they were usually blurry photos but what about the plaster casts of his tracks? How can any of you doubters explain that?

Before Texas was settled Native Americans in this part of the continent spoke of a mysterious short man-like creature that threw leather balls very far and sometimes with great accuracy. They left offerings for him in the woods and told stories around the fire about his exploits.

ObsiWan
01-10-2014, 11:32 AM
Here are two related questions:

Does O'Brien's give Keenum a chance to stick as a back-up?

Or does he cut him early on?

I think he'll take a look at him. He knows Keenum is young, and perhaps more importantly, cheap. He'll take a look at him in training camp and see what he shows.
I'm in this camp. I'd be surprised if O'Brien doesn't give both Yates and Keenum at least a look.
Schaub is probably already a cap casualty. ...among other things.

thunderkyss
01-10-2014, 11:34 AM
I will be the first to say I don't mind giving Keenum another look during TC and Preseason as Bridgewater gets caught up, but the Texans would be idiots for not taking a QB in the first round IMO. I am on the Bridgewater wagon if anyone can't tell. Can't stand Manziel and the Carr name has too much dark history with me... Bortles intrigues me though.

I'm not stuck on first round.

Lord Bills
01-10-2014, 12:31 PM
Oh my gawd!!! What is your problem?! We are talking about a third string QB who didn't win a dam game and you go on a rampage giving negative rep and putting a comment to make sure I come back and see your reply?!. Dude get over yourself, the Texans are not going to build around Keenum to give him the perfect offense he needs to "succeed" and be "given a chance". And yeah I was a fan of Schaub, because he was part of the team, what am I supposed to do watch a Texans game and be in a pissed off mood the whole time because Schaub is at QB and not someone else??!!. The only difference between me and you is that I put away my #8 jersey and I'm ready for a change, you are still clinging to Keenum.

thanks for admitting who you are.

what are yo suppose to do? cheer on the texans but not defend to the death a player who is obviously stinking it up despite having loaded rosters.

That makes you a homer and a delusional fan = bad fan.

To use that same critique of schaub on keenum is truly downright dirty and dishonest. And nowhere in my support for keenum did you see me say we should build around keenum or any of the nonsense you spouted daily on the texans main message board defending schaub as if you got paid by him to defend his honor online.

I want the texans to draft a QB because im not delusional enough to think keenum is the answer but at least im honest enough to look at the entire picture and see that he came into a bad situation with injured players on both sides of the ball and a bad head coach along with bad oline play.

Do I believe keenum can be successful in the nfl?

yes.

Am I 100% sure?

No.

I want Obrien to see what he can do with keenum. I want them to draft a qb with the first pick. Let them battle it out in the offseason, training camp etc.. and whoever wins, wins. I didnt go to UofH. I dont have a vested interest in keenum. I just want to make sure the kid gets a proper chance to prove himself. Him jumping yates and being thrust into the strating lineup in a lost sorry season where the texans ended up as the worst team in the nfl is not a proper chance.

speedfreek
01-10-2014, 01:10 PM
Keenum can be a successful QB in the NFL if he lands on
a team that runs a more modern "spread them out" type of
offense.

He's never going to be a pure 2 tights, 2 wides, pocket passer.
He's not cut out for that.

He's a better fit for the type of systems that NO, GB and NE run
than he is for a traditional West Coast (which I think is now
arcane and obsolete)

I would not be surprised to see Case end up serving as a
backup for Seattle either..

Either way, anyone that thinks he can't pick up a blitz is a
complete imbecille.

The guy ran a college offense that required reads (pre and post snap)
and he was blitzed by every single team that he played against.
(sometimes for entire games!)

You do not accumulate the kind of numbers he did without being
able to read a defense and beat the blitz.

He was just a bad fit for the offense this team ran last year..
But, then again, so were Schaub and Yates...

West Coast the way Gary and Shanny ran it is a relic. And that
is why both of them are currently unemployed..

infantrycak
01-10-2014, 01:20 PM
West Coast the way Gary and Shanny ran it is a relic. And that is why both of them are currently unemployed..

And the NFL agrees with you which is why Kubiak and little Shanny both have interviews.

sometexansfan
01-10-2014, 05:08 PM
Keenum can be a successful QB in the NFL if he lands on
a team that runs a more modern "spread them out" type of
offense.

He's never going to be a pure 2 tights, 2 wides, pocket passer.
He's not cut out for that.

He's a better fit for the type of systems that NO, GB and NE run
than he is for a traditional West Coast (which I think is now
arcane and obsolete)

I would not be surprised to see Case end up serving as a
backup for Seattle either..

Either way, anyone that thinks he can't pick up a blitz is a
complete imbecille.

The guy ran a college offense that required reads (pre and post snap)
and he was blitzed by every single team that he played against.
(sometimes for entire games!)

You do not accumulate the kind of numbers he did without being
able to read a defense and beat the blitz.

He was just a bad fit for the offense this team ran last year..
But, then again, so were Schaub and Yates...

West Coast the way Gary and Shanny ran it is a relic. And that
is why both of them are currently unemployed..

1. Case isn't a fit in the WCO, but Seattle who runs a WCO should sign him?

2. If he'd be better off in a NE like offense, wouldn't hiring B'OB be a good thing for the texans?

3. That's great that he beat all those blitzes in college, didn't see much evidence of his ability to do it in the NFL though.

thunderkyss
01-10-2014, 05:54 PM
2. If he'd be better off in a NE like offense, wouldn't hiring B'OB be a good thing for the texans?


I'm betting McNair learned his lesson from the Carr extension. He didn't demand that O'Brien make Keenum work, just to give him an opportunity to compete.

sometexansfan
01-10-2014, 06:12 PM
I'm betting McNair learned his lesson from the Carr extension. He didn't demand that O'Brien make Keenum work, just to give him an opportunity to compete.

I only asked because he seems to be upset by the O'Brien hiring and he's a big Keenum supporter.

Yaky
01-10-2014, 06:30 PM
3. That's great that he beat all those blitzes in college, didn't see much evidence of his ability to do it in the NFL though.

You believe a QB can beat the blitz all by himself? Where were the hot routes when everyone knew the blitz was coming?

sometexansfan
01-10-2014, 06:36 PM
You believe a QB can beat the blitz all by himself? Where were the hot routes when everyone knew the blitz was coming?

I don't know what the Texans plays are, so I couldn't tell you. All I know is I saw a guy who would constantly run backwards and take 20 yard sacks.

thunderkyss
01-10-2014, 07:11 PM
I don't know what the Texans plays are, so I couldn't tell you. All I know is I saw a guy who would constantly run backwards and take 20 yard sacks.

He set a record


& it didn't take him 8 years to do it, like Schaub.

revan
01-10-2014, 11:40 PM
thanks for admitting who you are.

what are yo suppose to do? cheer on the texans but not defend to the death a player who is obviously stinking it up despite having loaded rosters.

That makes you a homer and a delusional fan = bad fan.

To use that same critique of schaub on keenum is truly downright dirty and dishonest. And nowhere in my support for keenum did you see me say we should build around keenum or any of the nonsense you spouted daily on the texans main message board defending schaub as if you got paid by him to defend his honor online.

I want the texans to draft a QB because im not delusional enough to think keenum is the answer but at least im honest enough to look at the entire picture and see that he came into a bad situation with injured players on both sides of the ball and a bad head coach along with bad oline play.

Do I believe keenum can be successful in the nfl?

yes.

Am I 100% sure?

No.

I want Obrien to see what he can do with keenum. I want them to draft a qb with the first pick. Let them battle it out in the offseason, training camp etc.. and whoever wins, wins. I didnt go to UofH. I dont have a vested interest in keenum. I just want to make sure the kid gets a proper chance to prove himself. Him jumping yates and being thrust into the strating lineup in a lost sorry season where the texans ended up as the worst team in the nfl is not a proper chance.

That's twice now you mention my activity on the other board. Thanks for trolling me. I like this board better so I'll be here more, seems like you got some stuff to say to me about my old posts on Schaub so go ahead let's beat an old dead horse if you want. Plain and simple we don't agree on Keenum.......anymore. Let it be and stop taking comments about other people so personal.

burro
01-11-2014, 06:40 AM
I'm unsure but I think it's unlikely and more important than that I think that the window for learning whether he could ever be that guy is closed. Did he get a fair shot? Probably not but in the NFL almost no one ever gets to walk into a perfectly optimal situation. Everyone else makes do with the chance they've been given.

Nobody has time to wait for Case to develop some more. If he isn't just outright released and makes it into OTA's he'd better impress the hell out of BOB. If he does that then he'd better learn that offense inside and out before again impressing him in camp and preseason. Even then it will all more than likely be for nothing because BOB's going to bring in a starter either through the draft or free agency (and maybe both).

There should be a fourth option in the poll. "It doesn't really matter anymore".

Will you feel the same way about our #1 overall QB if he struggles in 2014 with what ought to be an infinitely better situation than what Keenum was working with in 2013? Or do expensive hype machines get more time to develop?

PapaL
01-11-2014, 07:42 AM
Will you feel the same way about our #1 overall QB if he struggles in 2014 with what ought to be an infinitely better situation than what Keenum was working with in 2013? Or do expensive hype machines get more time to develop?

Will the "expensive hype machine" get a year on a playoff team to sit and learn the system before being asked half way through the next year to produce?

imatexan
01-11-2014, 12:09 PM
Come on people he has already proven the answer is NO.

Number19
01-11-2014, 07:42 PM
Come on people he has already proven the answer is NO.Has he proven it to O'Brian, or do you think O'Brian should just read the forums and make his coaching decisions from the posts?

Thorn
01-11-2014, 07:46 PM
Has he proven it to O'Brian, or do you think O'Brian should just read the forums and make his coaching decisions from the posts?

O'Brien, not O'Brian. LOL. I did the same at first.

Yeah, O'Brien will make up his own mind. Maybe Case makes it, maybe he doesn't. I just want to see a Houston team in the super bowl before I die.

DBCooper
01-11-2014, 07:56 PM
O'Brien, not O'Brian. LOL. I did the same at first.

Yeah, O'Brien will make up his own mind. Maybe Case makes it, maybe he doesn't. I just want to see a Houston team in the super bowl before I die.

Damn, they better hurry!

Number19
01-11-2014, 08:31 PM
O'Brien, not O'Brian. LOL. I did the same at first.

Yeah, O'Brien will make up his own mind. Maybe Case makes it, maybe he doesn't. I just want to see a Houston team in the super bowl before I die.Dang, I think I've been spelling it wrong for weeks. It's going to take a conscience thought to get it right.

Hervoyel
01-11-2014, 08:36 PM
Will you feel the same way about our #1 overall QB if he struggles in 2014 with what ought to be an infinitely better situation than what Keenum was working with in 2013? Or do expensive hype machines get more time to develop?

This...

Will the "expensive hype machine" get a year on a playoff team to sit and learn the system before being asked half way through the next year to produce?

I like Case. I wanted him to succeed. He did not. In fact he got worse as the year went on. If it was up to me I'd keep him around to see if he improves but it isn't. It's up to BOB and BOB is going to probably do what most incoming HC's would do in his situation. He's going to draft a highly touted prospect and try to win with him.

As much as I like Case I can't fault BOB for what he's most likely going to do. Case got a better audition than most UDFA QB's could ever imagine. Now we move on.

Oz Texan
01-11-2014, 10:55 PM
Peyton Manning went 3-13 in his first season starting should the Colts have bailed on him?\

Let's face reality here. Case was not placed in and "ideal" or even realistic situation to succeed. The O'line was crap the coaching staff called crap plays while he was in there. And before you say conspiricy theory, You don't call 5-7 step drops, long developing plays, and you don't stop using any hotreads when you know the team is blitzing constantly. Which is exactly what happened to Case this season.

Now am I saying he will be the next Joe Montana or Tom Brady NO, I'm not even saying he will be the next Trent Dilfer or Frank Reich. What I am saying is that he was not given a realistic chance to succeed. Take it as you will.

Corrosion
01-11-2014, 11:07 PM
Peyton Manning went 3-13 in his first season starting should the Colts have bailed on him?\

Let's face reality here. Case was not placed in and "ideal" or even realistic situation to succeed. The O'line was crap the coaching staff called crap plays while he was in there. And before you say conspiricy theory, You don't call 5-7 step drops, long developing plays, and you don't stop using any hotreads when you know the team is blitzing constantly. Which is exactly what happened to Case this season.

Now am I saying he will be the next Joe Montana or Tom Brady NO, I'm not even saying he will be the next Trent Dilfer or Frank Reich. What I am saying is that he was not given a realistic chance to succeed. Take it as you will.

It is the QB's responsibility to make those adjustments at the line. Keenum could not recognize those situations.


Before you go off on a tangent about no audibles - those adjustments are built in - He had the ability to make those adjustments and just didn't do it.
Take a look at the same late season crap offense with Schaub under center , for the most part he recognized those situations and got into the proper protection schemes with the proper hot routes. Keenum Did Not.

Rockville
01-11-2014, 11:09 PM
BOB is going to probably do what most incoming HC's would do in his situation. He's going to draft a highly touted prospect and try to win with him.

I think this is a very realistic view. Keenum is a project. Like it or not he is Kubiak's project. I don't think BOB is going to invest into someone else's project. In my opinion, he'll draft his own guy to invest in.

It's impossible to guess who they'll draft, but there are definitely some dotted lines between BOB and the Bortles kid.

This is going to be a very interesting off season.

thunderkyss
01-11-2014, 11:27 PM
I origianlly put this in another thread. Thought it made more sense here.


Teams are going to blitz & create pressure with overloads on a regular basis in the NFL .... getting the ball out rapidly & on target are key in beating those situations.
This was one of the reasons Keenum failed so miserably .... failure to get the ball out quickly , along with defenses catching on to how to stop him - pressure.


This was also supposed to be one of his strong suits. & playing from the spread, you'd think he was pretty good at making quick decisions. They simply didn't materialize in live NFL situations.

However, something else had to have been going on. Keenum was in a lot of situations he should have known he blitz was coming, or situations he should have known to get rid of the ball quickly. Like those sacks in the end zone... QB 101 tells you not to hold onto the ball when you're in the end zone. Throw it away if your play isn't there. But time & time again he made bad decisions. Decisions that the lack of a running game, or a TE, or a competent RT does not exonerate.

If we drafted Cam Newton with the #1 overall selection out of Brigham Young & he was sacked/stripped in the end zone twice in an 8 week period, continues to scramble backwards taking us out of field goal range, fail to understand the other team is going to blitz on 3rd down... I'm not making excuses for him.

thunderkyss
01-11-2014, 11:31 PM
It's impossible to guess who they'll draft, but there are definitely some dotted lines between BOB and the Bortles kid.

This is going to be a very interesting off season.

There were several dots between Matt Lienart & Pete Carrol when Carrol was in need of a QB.

Corrosion
01-11-2014, 11:36 PM
I think this is a very realistic view. Keenum is a project. Like it or not he is Kubiak's project. I don't think BOB is going to invest into someone else's project. In my opinion, he'll draft his own guy to invest in.

It's impossible to guess who they'll draft, but there are definitely some dotted lines between BOB and the Bortles kid.

This is going to be a very interesting off season.

Keenum wasn't a project , he was more of a last resort ..... Schaub wasn't getting it done , Yates hadn't improved .... Keenum was a relative unknown and had some redeeming qualities .... It was likely the only chance to save his job ....

mussop
01-12-2014, 02:29 AM
Was it him that defenses figured out or was it our predictable checkdown offense? I'm still wondering if it would of mattered who QB'ed this offense. Case fits what O'brian is looking for in a QB. I'm looking forward to seeing how that all turns out.

I'm not willing to gamble on it. I'm getting a QB but I think there is a chance his career could be salvaged. I'm not 100 % giving up on him.

Lord Bills
01-12-2014, 08:37 PM
It is the QB's responsibility to make those adjustments at the line. Keenum could not recognize those situations.


Before you go off on a tangent about no audibles - those adjustments are built in - He had the ability to make those adjustments and just didn't do it.
Take a look at the same late season crap offense with Schaub under center , for the most part he recognized those situations and got into the proper protection schemes with the proper hot routes. Keenum Did Not.

how can it be an adjustment/audible if its built in?

it pretty much defeats the purpose of an audible.

What's worse is after that seahawks game, kubiak's answers were completely wishy washy.

He says once we have selected a play its the play we go into but he says like you said there are audibles built in probably trying to soothe fears or trying not to look bad considering its 2013 in the nfl and he doesnt let his quarterbacks audibles and if they do (allegedly) there's restrictions on it.

bah007
01-12-2014, 08:52 PM
how can it be an adjustment/audible if its built in?

it pretty much defeats the purpose of an audible.

What's worse is after that seahawks game, kubiak's answers were completely wishy washy.

He says once we have selected a play its the play we go into but he says like you said there are audibles built in probably trying to soothe fears or trying not to look bad considering its 2013 in the nfl and he doesnt let his quarterbacks audibles and if they do (allegedly) there's restrictions on it.

Meaning that there is a built in audible if Keenum gets a certain look from the defense. Problem is that Case can't correctly identify what's he is seeing, thus negating his ability to make the correct changes.

I'm not going to sit here and say that Kubiak gives his QBs complete authority at the line of scrimmage, but there's no doubt in my mind that during the week the offense comes up with certain hots or adjustments based on a specific look they expect to get during the game.

Corrosion
01-12-2014, 09:09 PM
how can it be an adjustment/audible if its built in?

it pretty much defeats the purpose of an audible.

This is simple:

They line up with a specific play , the defense shows a look that is likely to counter the original play. The QB makes the proper adjustments to that play to make it successful against the defense he see's. There may be a dozen variations within that same play , depending upon what the defense shows.

That's the definition of an audible , making adjustments .... the fact that the adjustments are scripted matters not , what matters is that the correct adjustments are made.


You don't necessarily have to change the entire play to make it a successful one .....

Lets say we have a deep route combination with a 7 step drop called and the QB reads an overload of pressure from one side or the other - you simply adjust the deep route to a short route and the 7 step to a 3 step to counter the pressure overload and make a positive play - pending execution.

We don't really see these adjustments being made as we don't have a clue what play was called before they left the huddle but rest assured , the adjustments are at the QB's disposal - Its up to him to make them.

We've had this conversation before , some just don't seem to grasp the concept. They just hear that "we don't audible." That doesn't mean "we don't make adjustments."


What's worse is after that seahawks game, kubiak's answers were completely wishy washy.

He says once we have selected a play its the play we go into but he says like you said there are audibles built in probably trying to soothe fears or trying not to look bad considering its 2013 in the nfl and he doesnt let his quarterbacks audibles and if they do (allegedly) there's restrictions on it.



Kubiak was falling on the knife for his QB .... he took the heat for their ineptitude.

imatexan
01-12-2014, 11:07 PM
Has he proven it to O'Brian, or do you think O'Brian should just read the forums and make his coaching decisions from the posts?

He has proved it to anyone that watched him lose all of the games he played in.

legacy_gt
01-19-2014, 07:49 PM
say what you want about keenum and all the coaching instabilities, offensive line woes, and the rest of the team failures mixed in with case's blitzing vision, the new draft of qb's including manziel isn't an upgrade imo.

next years draft is a diff story though. I believe case could work if he starts with a new scheme that fits his ability.

rmartin65
01-19-2014, 07:50 PM
say what you want about keenum and all the coaching instabilities, offensive line woes, and the rest of the team failures mixed in with case's blitzing vision, the new draft of qb's including manziel isn't an upgrade imo.

next years draft is a diff story though.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

BruceWayne
01-20-2014, 12:49 AM
Does anybody still think he can be a successful NFL qb? Or did his play and inability to win a game for a 2-14 team enough evidence to know that that he is no good? Or do you think he still has a chance to be successful with a proper head coach and a proper team?

My personal opinion is that Keenum was placed in a bad situation with a lame duck coach, with a flawed offensive philosophy, and a bad team saddled with injuries on both sides of the ball.

I want to see what he can do with a full off season and a new coaching staff.

He's done. Sorry to say :clap: