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kingtexan
01-05-2014, 07:29 PM
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/2014-nfl-draft-supposed-one-233639213.html

Back in October, everyone was excited about the supposedly deep quarterback class in the 2014 NFL Draft.

One anonymous NFL scout told SI's Peter King, "It would not surprise me when we make our board if we have nine quarterbacks with first-round grades. Not at all. Obviously, that depends on which underclassmen declare, and you hear things out there. But I could see it."

Nine first-round quality quarterbacks! The most ever taken in the first round is six. Two were taken in the top-32 last year.

But things have changed dramatically in the last three months. In the latest expert consensus ranking of the 32 best prospects in the draft, there are only four quarterbacks.

So what happened? How does one of the most hyped QB classes ever fall apart before it even materializes?

In short, a few guys returned to school, a few guys got hurt, and a few guys underperformed a bit.

Decent commentary on where we are with the QB's.

Interesting comment about one source saying Bridgewater only deserved a 2nd round grade.

bah007
01-05-2014, 07:35 PM
Teddy Bridgewater, who was always the consensus No. 1 offensive player in the draft, has been getting picked apart in the last few weeks. He had a good but not crazy-good season for a Louisville team that wasn't as strong as expected. He slipped from No. 2 to No. 4 in our expert consensus rankings in the last three months. One scout even called him a "second-round pick" last week.

LOL.

Really shows how good Bridgewater is when you can look at what he's done and say to yourself that he hasn't met expectations.

Still have yet to see any real criticism against him that doesn't involve just a gut feeling. If you don't like him, fine by me. But I'm getting the feeling that the people who don't like him don't even know why.

LikeMike
01-05-2014, 07:41 PM
LOL.

Really shows how good Bridgewater is when you can look at what he's done and say to yourself that he hasn't met expectations.

Still have yet to see any real criticism against him that doesn't involve just a gut feeling. If you don't like him, fine by me. But I'm getting the feeling that the people who don't like him don't even know why.

Yeah, basically all the criticism is around 2 things:

1. Small and thin. Well 6 3 or 6 2, that`s still taller than Wilson or Brees and not really all that small - and a NFL conditioning program should help that 21 year old kid to fill out his body.

2. Subpar competition. Nothing he could do about that, but he excelled in big games against good competition.

If he shows up at the combine, proves he can do all the throws I am sure he will cement his status as number 1 QB this draft. He will definetly interview well...

Playoffs
01-05-2014, 08:07 PM
That's just silly, 9 first round graded QBs.

The obfuscation begins -- everything said between now and the draft is strategy.

bhsman
01-05-2014, 08:08 PM
There's no way they can all get picked, which is more of a reason to consider grabbing one in the second and trading down/grabbing Clowney or Barr.

leebigeztx
01-05-2014, 08:52 PM
LOL.

Really shows how good Bridgewater is when you can look at what he's done and say to yourself that he hasn't met expectations.

Still have yet to see any real criticism against him that doesn't involve just a gut feeling. If you don't like him, fine by me. But I'm getting the feeling that the people who don't like him don't even know why.

Because he's fundamentally sound like Tim Duncan. Good,not great athlete. Good,not great arm. Good mobility, Great mobility,poise,pocket presence and will grade off the charts on the chalkboards.

TexansSeminole
01-05-2014, 09:01 PM
There's no way they can all get picked, which is more of a reason to consider grabbing one in the second and trading down/grabbing Clowney or Barr.

On it's face that sounds like a good strategy, but it's doubtful even half of these guys pan out.

kiwitexansfan
01-06-2014, 02:39 AM
Because he's fundamentally sound like Tim Duncan. Good,not great athlete. Good,not great arm. Good mobility, Great mobility,poise,pocket presence and will grade off the charts on the chalkboards.

Wouldn't want a Tim Duncan caliber player?

As far as the QB class goes, we only need one great one, all the better for us if the rest suck.

Corrosion
01-06-2014, 03:36 AM
LOL.

Really shows how good Bridgewater is when you can look at what he's done and say to yourself that he hasn't met expectations.

Still have yet to see any real criticism against him that doesn't involve just a gut feeling. If you don't like him, fine by me. But I'm getting the feeling that the people who don't like him don't even know why.

Then you've missed some of my posts - These are only partial quotes , to take them in context you probably have to go back to the conversation's they come from.


Level of competition isn't the only questionmark for Bridgewater , his mechanics may be the bigger question.




No one else has separated themselves yet - tho its early pre combine.

Mariota is staying in school , Johnny Football is difficult to forecast as an NFL talent , Bridgewater played against a bunch of scrubs and has poor mechanics .... Mettenberger & Murray have injury questions and McCarron is difficult at best to diagnose .... then again he could be this drafts Aaron Rogers.



No , there are no character concerns .... I don't question his arm strength either. He has a plenty strong enough arm. The only question I have is about his mechanics and accuracy when he is forced to put velocity on the ball , which he will in the NFL.


The kid comes with no character concerns , has size , speed , arm , accuracy ... pretty much the total package other than the level of competition and his flawed mechanics.

You might have to sit him for a year but you do have the potential of a probowl caliber QB for the next decade if he does reach that potential.
If not , we'll do it again in a couple years .... with a new coach.


If you don't have a franchise QB , go get one.


My issue with TB is his mechanics and slow / long release / delivery. He'll have to work on his mechanics to make it in the NFL.


His pocket awareness is one of the things I really do like about him ... along with the physical traits.

If he can improve his mechanics he has a chance to be really special. If not , he'll look a lot like the QB's who have player for the Texans this season.


I do think he's a better overall prospect than Manziel .... but that dude has special ability in the way he escapes pressure and makes teams pay for that pressure. If his game translates to the NFL (which I question) he will be difficult to defend .... He's a better passer than Vick or RG3 IMO with just as much ability to run.



What Im not sold on is level of competition , the mental part of the game (reading defenses , protections and others) as well as mechanics.
I really like how he moves around in the pocket ... kinda reminds me a bit of Brady there. But you do have to factor in the level of competition. His internal clock will have to speed up in the NFL.

No doubt about his success being a joint effort. The first thing they have to do is shorten that release and get him to keep the ball up high , ready to come out quickly.


I guess my biggest issue with Bridgewater is his throwing mechanics , I see a rather long wind up with a slow release .... and he holds the ball somewhat low at times. Not as exaggerated as Tebow but a slow release none the less.

He can get away with that in college especially the level of competition he's faced on a regular basis but that dog wont hunt in the NFL. Any team that drafts him is going to have to clean up his mechanics ....

He definitely has a lot of tools to work with ... but he's got a lot of work to do to get to an NFL level.

Initial thoughts after watching limited film


Good athlete. Quick feet. I see a stronger then average arm ... not great but better then average. Good mobility while maintaining a pass first mindset and keeping his eyes down field. Stonger then his frame suggest. Solid poise...not elite. Sometimes sloppy mechanics. Ok accuracy. Has the arm downfield but placement seems general...lots of deep balls where defenders and safties have a chance at it...he's raw and could be molded with the right support system ...could be a franchise style qb but it won't happen overnight. Will need some time to grow. Playbook understanding appears average. Not as refined as sam Bradford comming out...not as gifted as rg3.

Marshall
01-06-2014, 04:02 AM
LOL.

Really shows how good Bridgewater is when you can look at what he's done and say to yourself that he hasn't met expectations.

Still have yet to see any real criticism against him that doesn't involve just a gut feeling. If you don't like him, fine by me. But I'm getting the feeling that the people who don't like him don't even know why.

Being undersized and having a low delivery point have nothing to do with a gut feeling and are valid concerns. If you haven't seen these criticisms, you weren't looking too hard.

I respect those who see these concerns and still believe his other skills more than compensate for the concerns, but to ignore them and say they do not exist would be foolish for our FO. But for fans who have no real responsibility, I'll let it pass as simple overboard enthusiasm.

LikeMike
01-06-2014, 06:16 AM
@Corrosion

Strange, I regularly read he has great mechanics and a very quick release. Mechanic wise I only read about two concerns: 1. sometimes sloppy mechanics when throwing a deep ball. 2. Releasing the ball next to his ear and not above his head. Are those two things dealbreakers for you?

And trouble reading a defense? I´ve read several times that this is one of his biggest strengths. The coach has given him the keys to the offense in his sophomore year, making him basically the coordinator on the field. Presnap he is said to have Manning like football intelligence when dissecting a defense. After the snap he always has his eyes downfield and goes fast trough his progressions. What exactly are you worried about here?

revan
01-06-2014, 07:18 AM
Bridgewater is going to get picked apart like a chocolate brownie cake in Amsterdam from now until he gets drafted. I for one have made my decision on him, and hope we get him with our number one pick.

PapaL
01-06-2014, 07:21 AM
Right now the top QBs in the 2014 Draft are Bridgewater, Johnny Manziel, Derek Carr, and Blake Bortles.

Certain posters are going tobe furious that Blake was listed last/worst. Prepare for the wrath...

bah007
01-06-2014, 08:55 AM
Being undersized and having a low delivery point have nothing to do with a gut feeling and are valid concerns. If you haven't seen these criticisms, you weren't looking too hard.

I respect those who see these concerns and still believe his other skills more than compensate for the concerns, but to ignore them and say they do not exist would be foolish for our FO. But for fans who have no real responsibility, I'll let it pass as simple overboard enthusiasm.

I'm very well aware of what the concerns about Bridgewater are. He is skinny and he does have a low delivery point. I have acknowledged these and mentioned that neither of those concerns are a deal breaker to me.

My point was that on this board there are a number of people who don't like him, but don't seem to know why they don't like him. Thunderkyss and Corrosion have put forth valid criticism. Most everyone else has not.

For example, I disagree with Corrosion that Bridgewater needs work in the mental part of the game. I think he excels there. But I at least can respect the fact that Corrosion has reasoning behind his opinion and is not just blindly saying he doesn't like the guy.

Playoffs
01-06-2014, 09:05 AM
Bridgewater is going to get picked apart like a chocolate brownie cake in Amsterdam...

http://270c81.medialib.glogster.com/media/ae/ae78dbc42a92bbe69f9d32605fb0b5539f4774ce3fe52d79a2 b941648b00394a/watermelonlolwut.jpg

thunderkyss
01-06-2014, 09:13 AM
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/2014-nfl-draft-supposed-one-233639213.html

Decent commentary on where we are with the QB's.
Hundley isn't as polished as Mariota. He didn't play as well as many hoped this year, partly because of a bunch of injuries to his offensive line. But because of his size, speed, and raw talent, he could have still been one of the first QBs taken. According to Adam Schefter, two NFL teams had him as the best QB in the draft.

CBS's draft writer Rob Rang says it could push him (Zach Mettenberger) into the second day of the draft, even though he's a first-round talent.

Georgia's Aaron Murray also suffered a season-ending knee injury, and will face that stigma in the lead up to the draft.

One scout even called him (Teddy Bridgewater) a "second-round pick" last week.



Interesting comment about one source saying Bridgewater only deserved a 2nd round grade.

If it is fact that two teams thought Hundley was the best QB in this class that should tell you it's not a one size fits all position. One team will value certain skills, others will value others. Coaching a pro style offense may not mean as much to a team, as long as you weren't running an option offense. Playing in the spread, throwing the ball, reading defenses... may be just as good, even better for some teams.

Zach got hurt, fell out of the first round. Murray got hurt, fell out of the first round. If Teddy got hurt, would he have fallen out of the first round? Why base a decision that will affect your team possibly for the next decade on the health of the guy in January?

And an ACL, not just because of what we've seen from Peterson, but they've come a long, long way in repairing ACLs. If running wasn't a big part of the QBs game... who cares?

PapaL
01-06-2014, 09:19 AM
Brett Hundley to stay at UCLA; LINK (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/college-football/story/_/id/10246277/brett-hundley-return-ucla-bruins)

UCLA Bruins quarterback Brett Hundley is planning to return to school for his junior season, sources close to the situation said.

An announcement is expected this week.

While UCLA will be excited, there will be NFL teams that are disappointed. Two teams that scouted Hundley thought that if he left school early he might just be the top quarterback in the 2014 draft.

thunderkyss
01-06-2014, 09:19 AM
Small and thin. Well 6 3 or 6 2, that`s still taller than Wilson or Brees and not really all that small - and a NFL conditioning program should help that 21 year old kid to fill out his body.


You'd think they said the same thing about a college football program.

The fact that it is a concern is not the problem. The fact that so many people are ignoring all of his issues should be.

As far as his size goes. If he in fact measures 6'3" (which I doubt) & weighs in over 210, I'll stop saying anything at all about his size. But if he doesn't.... I'm leaning towards pass.

steelbtexan
01-06-2014, 09:21 AM
I'm very well aware of what the concerns about Bridgewater are. He is skinny and he does have a low delivery point. I have acknowledged these and mentioned that neither of those concerns are a deal breaker to me.

My point was that on this board there are a number of people who don't like him, but don't seem to know why they don't like him. Thunderkyss and Corrosion have put forth valid criticism. Most everyone else has not.

For example, I disagree with Corrosion that Bridgewater needs work in the mental part of the game. I think he excels there. But I at least can respect the fact that Corrosion has reasoning behind his opinion and is not just blindly saying he doesn't like the guy.

Count me in the group who has told you.

Arm strength/level of competition/low delivery.

Sounds alot like the knocks on Carr minus the arm strength knock.

Tell me, how do you think TB's delivery compares to David Carr's?

Texian
01-06-2014, 10:40 AM
Taking in to account that last year was a drought year for QBs, in conjunction with 8 of the first 11 teams picking in this draft are QB needy teams, there is a high probability that there could be a strong run on QBs early.

Teams needing a QB by draft order: #1 HOU: #2 STL: #3 JAX: #4 CLE: #5 OAK; #7 TPA; #8 MIN; #11 TEN - http://www.gbnreport.com/weeklydraftorder.html

STL could also go QB with the 2nd pick in the draft. Sam Bradford has not lived up to #1 billing and is coming off ACL surgery. Bradford has a cap hit of $17 mil + in 14'. The Rams could release Bradford and save $10 mil +, a June 1 cut = more than $13 Mil + in savings, more than enough to sign the #2 pick and still be able to save a considerable amount of money.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/st.-louis-rams/sam-bradford/

The Mettenberger and Murray injuries does NOT necessarily drop them in the draft. In fact their respective injuries could take pressure off the teams who draft them to start them immediately. With not enough QBs to go around to QB needy teams, those teams will not want to play the waiting game and miss out on a QB they desperately need. Aaron and Zach will be ready for OTAs but there is more than enough common sense reasoning to keep them on the bench for at least half the season. This works in the coach's and QB's favor, they have a built in excuse.

thunderkyss
01-06-2014, 11:34 AM
Taking in to account that last year was a drought year for QBs, in conjunction with 8 of the first 11 teams picking in this draft are QB needy teams, there is a high probability that there could be a strong run on QBs early.

Teams needing a QB by draft order: #1 HOU: #2 STL: #3 JAX: #4 CLE: #5 OAK; #7 TPA; #8 MIN; #11 TEN -

Not to mention I'm not hearing much chatter about any other top 5 pick.... top 10 even. Relatively speaking, the chatter about Clowney is mild in comparison to the QB talk.

Not that anyone cares, but just in case. I haven't made up my mind yet who the best is in this class. Right now, it's just a bunch of them "worthy" of a first round pick. Surely by draft time, I'll have some form of ranking, but it'll most likely resemble "everyone" elses.

PapaL
01-06-2014, 12:00 PM
Not to mention I'm not hearing much chatter about any other top 5 pick.... top 10 even. Relatively speaking, the chatter about Clowney is mild in comparison to the QB talk.


Could that be because the draft is literally 4 months away and the playoffs are shappening? All of "this" will pick up in about 40 days when the combine happens. We're still a long way away from next season.

bah007
01-06-2014, 01:20 PM
Count me in the group who has told you.

Arm strength/level of competition/low delivery.

Sounds alot like the knocks on Carr minus the arm strength knock.

Tell me, how do you think TB's delivery compares to David Carr's?

Not similar at all really, except for both being lower than ideal.

Bridgewater releases from right about his ear but still over the shoulder. Carr had a three quarter release where he threw almost sidearm away from his body.

Dutchrudder
01-06-2014, 02:00 PM
David Carr threw more like Matt Stafford than TB. The difference is that Stafford has the arm strength to make that side-arm delivery actually work.

Also, I'm not seeing TB release the ball below his ear at all. The only time I really see his throwing motion change is when he's trying to avoid a defender. Generally his throw, release and follow-through are vertically aligned from what I have seen. The ball does seem to get further away from his body when he's on the run (which lowers the release point), but that's not unusual due to the momentum of the player.

Texian
01-06-2014, 02:28 PM
Taking in to account that last year was a drought year for QBs, in conjunction with 8 of the first 11 teams picking in this draft are QB needy teams, there is a high probability that there could be a strong run on QBs early.

Teams needing a QB by draft order: #1 HOU: #2 STL: #3 JAX: #4 CLE: #5 OAK; #7 TPA; #8 MIN; #11 TEN - http://www.gbnreport.com/weeklydraftorder.html

STL could also go QB with the 2nd pick in the draft. Sam Bradford has not lived up to #1 billing and is coming off ACL surgery. Bradford has a cap hit of $17 mil + in 14'. The Rams could release Bradford and save $10 mil +, a June 1 cut = more than $13 Mil + in savings, more than enough to sign the #2 pick and still be able to save a considerable amount of money.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/st.-louis-rams/sam-bradford/

The Mettenberger and Murray injuries does NOT necessarily drop them in the draft. In fact their respective injuries could take pressure off the teams who draft them to start them immediately. With not enough QBs to go around to QB needy teams, those teams will not want to play the waiting game and miss out on a QB they desperately need. Aaron and Zach will be ready for OTAs but there is more than enough common sense reasoning to keep them on the bench for at least half the season. This works in the coach's and QB's favor, they have a built in excuse.

Rams could release Sam Bradford with no financial constraints
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24375979/rams-could-release-sam-bradford-with-no-financial-constraints

THE SAM BRADFORD DILEMMA
http://overthecap.com/sam-bradford-dilemma/

Corrosion
01-06-2014, 03:53 PM
@Corrosion

Strange, I regularly read he has great mechanics and a very quick release. Mechanic wise I only read about two concerns: 1. sometimes sloppy mechanics when throwing a deep ball. 2. Releasing the ball next to his ear and not above his head. Are those two things dealbreakers for you?

And trouble reading a defense? I´ve read several times that this is one of his biggest strengths. The coach has given him the keys to the offense in his sophomore year, making him basically the coordinator on the field. Presnap he is said to have Manning like football intelligence when dissecting a defense. After the snap he always has his eyes downfield and goes fast trough his progressions. What exactly are you worried about here?

Bridgewater's mechanical issues aren't a deal breaker for me ... I think they can be fixed. I was just pointing out that there has been criticism other than the "gut feeling".

Watch and you see he has a loop at the top of his delivery (like that of Tebow just not near as exaggerated). Also he holds the ball down low at times rather than up high , this creates a slower release & a ball security issue keeping it where defenders can swipe at it.


As for the reading of defenses it goes a lot deeper than just the presnap read and maybe it has something to do with accuracy as he tends to put a lot of balls in harms way rather than where only his target can make a play , making it seem as if he's forcing a throw rather than going thru his progressions & take the easy throw. (hope this makes sense as its difficult to explain)

He also throws an awful lot of floaters - too much touch rather than putting velocity on his throws.
NFL defenses are a lot more complicated than anything he's faced at the NCAA level where his level of competition is in question .... they will make him pay for the little mistakes and bait him into others.


I do think Bridgewater has the potential to be a franchise type QB , but he has a lot of work to do to become that player , Im not even sure he's the best QB prospect in this draft. Some of these guy's are just about impossible to forecast as NFL players while others don't have the physical attributes but are better in other aspects.
I cant decide between Bridgewater , Bortles & Manziel ... You could even add Carr & McCarron to the discussion as their mechanics are almost flawless.


Qb's are such a huge gamble .... either you have a great one or you are looking for a great one and so few actually become what they are advertised to be in the long run.


I think its really telling that McNair has made the statements about being willing to move #1:1 ... that none of these QB's has really separated himself from the others as a prospective NFL QB. If there was one , he wouldn't be making that statement as the owner of a team in desperate need of a QB.

thunderkyss
01-06-2014, 04:24 PM
Could that be because the draft is literally 4 months away and the playoffs are shappening? All of "this" will pick up in about 40 days when the combine happens. We're still a long way away from next season.

They were talking about Reggie Bush before the season started. Vince right after the RoseBowl.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Fred
01-06-2014, 11:11 PM
Florida State got the win but clearly Bridgewater >>> Winston and 2014 >>> 2015.
/thread

steelbtexan
01-06-2014, 11:18 PM
Florida State got the win but clearly Bridgewater >>> Winston and 2014 >>> 2015.
/thread

LOL

aussie_texan
01-07-2014, 02:22 AM
personally i think this QB class is quite good.
Yes it doesn't have a Luck, Manning type of prospect but few drafts do.
You have 2-3 top 10 calibre QBs another 1-2 first rounders and a bunch of 2-3 round prospects, overall i consider it a good draft at QB

Fred
01-07-2014, 07:02 AM
LOL

As said in Galaxy Quest "Did you guys ever WATCH the show?" Apparently you haven't. I did watch the show (bowl games), so to help you out:

Bridgewater: 78% comp, 10 yards per att, 3 TDs. 1 TD rushing, sacked 1 time, 0 fumbles.
Winston: 57% comp, 7 yards per att, 2 TDs. 0 TDs rushing, sacked 4 times, 1 fumble.

Great 4th qtr comeback? I guess, but Bridgewater didn't need one. The big plays for FSU were special teams and defense. The big pass play on the last drive was a 3 yard pass and a 46 yard run. (Interesting stat - in the 4th qtr Winston's average pass only traveled 3.6 yards past the line of scrimmage.) So don't bring the "big arm" story.

But like Blaine Gabbert he is 6'4", so that may be worth going 1-15 next year.

LikeMike
01-07-2014, 07:12 AM
As said in Galaxy Quest "Did you guys ever WATCH the show?" Apparently you haven't. I did watch the show (bowl games), so to help you out:

Bridgewater: 78% comp, 10 yards per att, 3 TDs. 1 TD rushing, sacked 1 time, 0 fumbles.
Winston: 57% comp, 7 yards per att, 2 TDs. 0 TDs rushing, sacked 4 times, 1 fumble.

Great 4th qtr comeback? I guess, but Bridgewater didn't need one. The big plays for FSU were special teams and defense. The big pass play on the last drive was a 3 yard pass and a 46 yard run. (Interesting stat - in the 4th qtr Winston's average pass only traveled 3.6 yards past the line of scrimmage.) So don't bring the "big arm" story.

But like Blaine Gabbert he is 6'4", so that may be worth going 1-15 next year.

I don`t think this is entirely fair since it was only one game (the big one), Winston got the win and Bridgewater had the easier opponent. Also don`t forget that Winston is a redshirt freshman.

But I also think it is stupid to wait a year for this guy or another one of the QBs. A lot can change in a season. Matt Barkley was supposed to be the clear number 1 pick before his last college season. This years QB class was supposed to be a great one.

I think Bridgewater only has one real knock, and that is his "small" frame - and it isn`t even that small. The team will do its homework at the combine. But a guy with such a high football intelligence and drive is hard to skip - especially if he has the accuracy, pocket presence, swagger and leadership like Bridgewater has. If we think he can be a franchise QB for us, we`d be stupid to wait a year because there might be a better one down the line.

b0ng
01-07-2014, 09:04 AM
Then you've missed some of my posts - These are only partial quotes , to take them in context you probably have to go back to the conversation's they come from.

I want to see a breakdown of the points you made about his mechanics. You did say he's got a long release/delivery but I need to know more than that discussing what you find about his mechanics that are the real issues. Footwork also plays into mechanics and really, I think Bridgewaters footwork is pretty good, and it seems like he uses his whole body to throw the ball not just his arm.

Texian
01-07-2014, 03:21 PM
Teams needing a QB by draft order: (Don't Be Surprised)
#1 HOU: Bortles
#2 STL: Bridgewater
#3 JAX: Manziel
#4 CLE: Mettenberger
#5 OAK: Carr

aussie_texan
01-07-2014, 06:09 PM
Teams needing a QB by draft order: (Don't Be Surprised)
#1 HOU: Bortles
#2 STL: Bridgewater
#3 JAX: Manziel
#4 CLE: Mettenberger
#5 OAK: Carr

i would be surprised because its never happened before.
And there is no way the browns don't trade up in this years draft to get one of the top 3 QBs.

Personally i think it will go like this

1. HOU - TB
2. CLE - Manziel
3. JAX - Bortles
4. STL - Matthews
5. OAK - 4.35 40 time

Uncle Rico
01-07-2014, 06:39 PM
QB A vs Miami

21-29 325 yards 1TD 2 INT

QB B vs Miami

35-45 447 yards 4TDs 0 INTs

:shrug: just sayin'

TexansFTW
01-08-2014, 10:39 AM
Taking in to account that last year was a drought year for QBs, in conjunction with 8 of the first 11 teams picking in this draft are QB needy teams, there is a high probability that there could be a strong run on QBs early.

Teams needing a QB by draft order: #1 HOU: #2 STL: #3 JAX: #4 CLE: #5 OAK; #7 TPA; #8 MIN; #11 TEN - http://www.gbnreport.com/weeklydraftorder.html

STL could also go QB with the 2nd pick in the draft. Sam Bradford has not lived up to #1 billing and is coming off ACL surgery. Bradford has a cap hit of $17 mil + in 14'. The Rams could release Bradford and save $10 mil +, a June 1 cut = more than $13 Mil + in savings, more than enough to sign the #2 pick and still be able to save a considerable amount of money.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/st.-louis-rams/sam-bradford/

The Mettenberger and Murray injuries does NOT necessarily drop them in the draft. In fact their respective injuries could take pressure off the teams who draft them to start them immediately. With not enough QBs to go around to QB needy teams, those teams will not want to play the waiting game and miss out on a QB they desperately need. Aaron and Zach will be ready for OTAs but there is more than enough common sense reasoning to keep them on the bench for at least half the season. This works in the coach's and QB's favor, they have a built in excuse.

Good call on St. Louis. Everyone has been dismissing them as automatic BPA (not QB), but I've been telling my friends to not be surprised if Rams move on. Dude gets paid too much and hasn't proved he can compensate for what his team lacks (which every high paid QB must do).

I think its really telling that McNair has made the statements about being willing to move #1:1 ... that none of these QB's has really separated himself from the others as a prospective NFL QB. If there was one , he wouldn't be making that statement as the owner of a team in desperate need of a QB.

I recall up until 2 days before the 2012 NFL draft it wasn't certain if the Colts would draft Luck or RG3. It's posturing, and everyone does it. To be in the game, you gotta play the game.

i would be surprised because its never happened before.
And there is no way the browns don't trade up in this years draft to get one of the top 3 QBs.

Personally i think it will go like this

1. HOU - TB
2. CLE - Manziel
3. JAX - Bortles
4. STL - Matthews
5. OAK - 4.35 40 time

LOL, Al Davis is dead though... right?

I'm all about TB, but to compare him to Winston right now isn't really fair. If we compared TB 2 years ago to Winston today that is a more fair comparison and I think Winston wins.

I personally believe winning is what will ultimately cost him though. Stupid right? But why change the way you play football if all you do is win? Ask Tebow. Never bothered/had to learn how to be a pro style QB because all he did was win.

TB has crazy football acumen and has adjusted his game to be a long term successful QB in the NFL and for this I give him my nod (not like anyone cares though).

drs23
01-08-2014, 05:14 PM
i would be surprised because its never happened before.
And there is no way the browns don't trade up in this years draft to get one of the top 3 QBs.

Personally i think it will go like this

1. HOU - TB
2. CLE - Manziel
3. JAX - Bortles
4. STL - Matthews
5. OAK - 4.35 40 time

:lol: But Al's dead.

In all seriousness though I've read a few articles here about the Raiders being run like a real NFL organization now. They're in cap hell and will be for a few more years but they're doing their best to straighten that mess out.

aussie_texan
01-08-2014, 05:50 PM
:lol: But Al's dead.

In all seriousness though I've read a few articles here about the Raiders being run like a real NFL organization now. They're in cap hell and will be for a few more years but they're doing their best to straighten that mess out.

yeah i put that because i think the raiders could go so many different ways and there is no clear cut choice. thats not saying the others a clear cut but they have more than a slim chance of happening.

The raiders will pick themselves up soon, they certainly had a better year than i thought they would

Playoffs
01-09-2014, 11:32 AM
2014's Quarterback Conundrum

Rotoworld | Greg Peshek (http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/2014s-quarterback-conundrum?pg=1)
With respect to quarterbacks in the draft, you’ll always hear pundits make observations such as, “this QB has a great deep ball” or “he always folds when he’s under pressure in the pocket.” But how do you know those are true and not bias from a small sample of observed snaps? The simple answer is that you don’t. What I’ve aimed to do this year (and in years past) is to quantify those observations in an effort complement film study and analysis of draft prospects. Instead of guessing about the potency of Manziel’s deep ball, you can pull up the legitimate statistic.

To do that, I’ve hand charted every one of Teddy Bridgewater, Derek Carr, Johnny Manziel, and Blake Bortles’ attempts this year on everything from pass distance to throws against the blitz. The data here can’t render an opinion for you, but it can provide an effective complement to your knowledge on a prospect.

Where Did They Throw the Ball?

The ‘zones’ in the chart represent where the QB threw the ball on the field, that is exactly the spot the receiver caught the ball. This is to make sure yards after the catch don’t influence our opinion on the QBs.

Targets
http://i.imgur.com/wyizzs0.jpg

- Most notable for Bridgewater is the lack of screens...
- Derek Carr is the complete opposite, throwing 33% of his passes...
- Similar to Carr, Bortles doesn’t throw the deep ball...
- In an era of screen passes, Manziel threw the deep ball...

How Accurate Were They?

This requires a bit of explaining. The chart below represents each QBs accuracy in the individual target zones when adjusting for drops by their receivers. The colors represent how that accuracy compares to the ‘Average QB’, green is better than average, yellow average, red is below-average. Let’s get to it.

PRR
http://i.imgur.com/UFWnqVj.jpg

- It’s pretty clear that Bridgewater cleans up in every zone except...
- Derek Carr’s accuracy on 20+ yard throws is...
- There an interesting dichotomy in Bortles’ throw ability...
- For all the criticism Manziel gets, he’s extremely good at...
- Before we start getting into the debates about Manziel scrambling around...

How Do They Do Under Pressure?

I’ve got quite a few stats for these QBs, but for the sake of brevity I’ve picked their completion percentage while being blitzed and under pressure to highlight. For reference, a blitz counts regardless of whether the O-line picks it up, but under pressure is when the QB is moved off his spot or has to get rid of the ball quicker than anticipated.

Pressure
http://i.imgur.com/db0HWPQ.jpg

- Upon first glance it’s pretty clear that Carr is lacking...
- When looking at both categories, Bridgewater is the clear...
- Bortles has been noted for his...
- Manziel’s just about average...

How Did Their Systems Affect Them?

My goal here was to take out the variability of systems they all played in. Thus, how would Derek Carr have performed in an average system? This is imperfect, but it gives you a feel for how the systems helped or harmed them.

What I’ve done is taken out drops and then used the data to create an average system. The result is what their overall completion percentage would have been if they had played in an average system and the difference between the actual and adjusted completion percentages.

http://i.imgur.com/97DoRoS.jpg

- Bridgewater, Bortles and Manziel’s systems had a...
- Derek Carr on the other hand...

- Below you can find a target chart for each QB (http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/2014s-quarterback-conundrum?pg=2) detailed here. The graphic shows the location of each target for the quarterback broken down into individual spots on the field. The bigger the circle, the more passes a QB threw to that spot. The colors signify accuracy, the brighter red – the hotter or more accurate the QB was. The more blue spots represent cold or less accurate areas.

- The charts don’t give you any...
read more/see target charts here: http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/2014s-quarterback-conundrum?pg=2

PapaL
01-09-2014, 12:27 PM
2014's Quarterback Conundrum

Rotoworld | Greg Peshek (http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/2014s-quarterback-conundrum?pg=1)

read more/see target charts here: http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/2014s-quarterback-conundrum?pg=2

Great find. Rep your way!

Playoffs
01-09-2014, 04:30 PM
Add, same source as above...

Roll-out completion percentage:


Bridgewater: 82%
Manziel: 71.5%
Bortles: 63.4%
Carr: 56%


Percentage of throws defensed/intercepted by DBs/LBs:


Manziel: 5.34%
Bridgewater: 6.12%
Bortles: 7.14%
Carr: 8.33%


Average distance a pass traveled in the air:


Bridgewater: 7.8 yds
Manziel: 6.82
Bortles: 6.0
Carr: 4.2

Number19
01-09-2014, 07:02 PM
Here's a great statistical analysis of the four leading prospects in this year's draft: Bridgewater, Manziel, Bortles and Carr.

Bridgewater and Manziel are neck & neck with Bridgewater having a significant advantage in completed passes between 1-10 yards; and with Manziel having a slight advantage between 11-20 yards and a significant advantage in completed passes over 20 yards.

So, does O'Brian favor a West Coast offense or a vertical passing game?

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/2014s-quarterback-conundrum

Playoffs
01-09-2014, 07:03 PM
Harvey: Why QB is not the obvious choice with the No. 1 pick (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2014/01/harvey-why-qb-is-not-the-obvious-choice-with-the-no-1-pick/)

1. Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M: He’s listed as 6-1, 210. He’s probably closer to 5-11, 195. He has more patience in the pocket than he did as a freshman but still has a tendency to run before going through his progressions. His passing style when rushed is “wing and a prayer.”

2. Teddy Bridgewater, Louisville: He’s listed as 6-3, 205. He’s probably closer to 6-2, 195. He needs to put on 20 pounds, which might limit his mobility. He’s inconsistent, spectacular at times, not so much at others. His receivers often have to come back for the ball on deep passes.

3. Blake Bortles, Central Florida: He’s listed at 6-4, 230, which is exaggerated. But he is a big man, although clumsy at times as if still growing into his body. He’s a “see it, throw it” quarterback, not yet adept at reading defenses or looking off receivers. He more than the others could have used another year in college.

gtexan02
01-12-2014, 08:42 AM
Thought this was a pretty interesting read:

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/2014s-quarterback-conundrum?pg=1

Playoffs
01-12-2014, 08:47 AM
http://standingosports.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/teddy-bridgewater.jpg
http://www.trbimg.com/img-523b14d7/turbine/os-heisman-watch-johnny-manziel-soars-to-top-o-001/580/580x398
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Blake%2BBortles%2BSouth%2BFlorida%2Bv%2BCentral%2B Florida%2BJgLMJV5OmXql.jpg
http://media.fresnobee.com/smedia/2013/10/20/01/28/1irfDc.AuSt.8.jpg

JB
01-12-2014, 08:50 AM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103684

And about 17 other locations

76Texan
01-12-2014, 09:22 AM
And it is still difficult to compare them or to make much out of them numbers.

All pressure are not created equal.
Some O-lines are better than others, the pressure a guy gave up can be at the 1-sec mark, while another guy might give it up at 2 seconds.
Sometimes, the QB can be pressured or blitzed, but there's still room for him to step up.

A completion sometimes is the function of a good play by the receiver, able to get open and/or making a good catch.

An incompletion could be the function of a good play by a defender, a drop by a receiver.

Sometimes the weather condition effect the plays.

If only we can simulate these guys in the same condition, with the same players on his offense against the same defenders, etc.

ArlingtonTexan
01-12-2014, 09:34 AM
And it is still difficult to compare them or to make much out of them numbers.

All pressure are not created equal.
Some O-lines are better than others, the pressure a guy gave up can be at the 1-sec mark, while another guy might give it up at 2 seconds.
Sometimes, the QB can be pressured or blitzed, but there's still room for him to step up.

A completion sometimes is the function of a good play by the receiver, able to get open and/or making a good catch.

An incompletion could be the function of a good play by a defender, a drop by a receiver.

Sometimes the weather condition effect the plays.

If only we can simulate these guys in the same condition, with the same players on his offense against the same defenders, etc.
In theory this is what the all-star games (east-west/senior bowl) are designed as well as the workout i.e. passing drills at the combine.

Still at the end of the day, all of the elements you mentioned are why scouting is difficult.

beerlover
01-12-2014, 10:22 AM
now Texans have secured top pick we trying to talk them out of taking QB first overall because, "class is not that great"? remember it only takes one :bubbles:

bOODRO87
01-12-2014, 10:27 AM
now Texans have secured top pick we trying to talk them out of taking QB first overall because, "class is not that great"? remember it only takes one :bubbles:

I cringe at his posts so much it's become admirable. I hope he keeps it up. It keeps me in awe. Steelbtexan is giving him a run for his money, though.

kingtexan
01-12-2014, 11:03 AM
now Texans have secured top pick we trying to talk them out of taking QB first overall because, "class is not that great"? remember it only takes one :bubbles:

So what if you take the wrong "one" (see David Carr), and pass up on a perennial pro-bowler (see Julius Peppers)?

If you take a pick with #1, take a pick worth #1.

TexansFTW
01-13-2014, 11:34 AM
If only we can simulate these guys in the same condition, with the same players on his offense against the same defenders, etc.

lol, then what would all of us do? The answers would all be blatantly obvious.

Blake
01-13-2014, 11:38 AM
So what if you take the wrong "one" (see David Carr), and pass up on a perennial pro-bowler (see Julius Peppers)?

Then you end up with zero superbowl wins either way.

kingtexan
01-13-2014, 05:22 PM
Then you end up with zero superbowl wins either way.

Yeah maybe, but at least you get to go ...

Corrosion
01-13-2014, 08:10 PM
Yeah maybe, but at least you get to go ...

Yeah , without a QB you get to go watch that Peppers type play in a superbowl after he signs with a team who has a QB ....:lol:

TexansFTW
01-14-2014, 10:42 AM
Yeah , without a QB you get to go watch that Peppers type play in a superbowl after he signs with a team who has a QB ....:lol:

lol, true. And maybe he just doesn't do enough for the franchise and we never win a single playoff game with him on the field before he is released to free agency... Mario Williams.

Playoffs
01-14-2014, 02:00 PM
http://secondroundstats.com/?page_id=632

More stats for the "Big 4" linked above, like...

YPC: Represents the number of air yards a pass traveled on completions. This subtracts yards gained after the catch.
3rd Down %: Completion percentage on 3rd down
Red Zone %: Completion percentage in the red zone
Rollout %: Completion percentage when rolling out
Pressure %: Completion percentage when under pressure
Blitz %: Completion percentage against the blitz
Defensed %: Percentage of total attempts defensed/ intercepted by a DB or LB in coverage.

WolverineFan
01-14-2014, 02:06 PM
http://secondroundstats.com/?page_id=632

More stats for the "Big 4" linked above, like...

YPC: Represents the number of air yards a pass traveled on completions. This subtracts yards gained after the catch.
3rd Down %: Completion percentage on 3rd down
Red Zone %: Completion percentage in the red zone
Rollout %: Completion percentage when rolling out
Pressure %: Completion percentage when under pressure
Blitz %: Completion percentage against the blitz
Defensed %: Percentage of total attempts defensed/ intercepted by a DB or LB in coverage.


The more people dive into these stats, the more it becomes clear to me that it's a two-horse race between Bridgewater and Manziel.

Texian
01-14-2014, 03:40 PM
http://secondroundstats.com/?page_id=632

More stats for the "Big 4" linked above, like...

YPC: Represents the number of air yards a pass traveled on completions. This subtracts yards gained after the catch.
3rd Down %: Completion percentage on 3rd down
Red Zone %: Completion percentage in the red zone
Rollout %: Completion percentage when rolling out
Pressure %: Completion percentage when under pressure
Blitz %: Completion percentage against the blitz
Defensed %: Percentage of total attempts defensed/ intercepted by a DB or LB in coverage.


The more people dive into these stats, the more it becomes clear to me that it's a two-horse race between Bridgewater and Manziel.

There is one stat not mentioned that I will divulge on Thursday.

bOODRO87
01-14-2014, 09:17 PM
There is one stat not mentioned that I will divulge on Thursday.

Ratio of High Fives to Fist Bumps?

Texian
01-14-2014, 09:28 PM
Ratio of High Fives to Fist Bumps?

Negative Ghost rider but I will pass this along, careful on interpreting the QB stats. Stats should favor Bridgewater, he has almost a one full season in number of starts compared to Manziel and Bortles. In addition the stats will also favor Bridgewater because of the level of competition faced. More on Thursday....

WolverineFan
01-15-2014, 01:01 AM
Negative Ghost rider but I will pass this along, careful on interpreting the QB stats. Stats should favor Bridgewater, he has almost a one full season in number of starts compared to Manziel and Bortles. In addition the stats will also favor Bridgewater because of the level of competition faced. More on Thursday....

Okay, fair points. However....

Do the stats not also favor Bortles because of level of competition? I mean, they play in the same conference.

The stats also favor Carr and Manziel because of the offenses they play in. Bridgewater is the only one who plays in a pro-style offense.

Texian
01-15-2014, 08:05 AM
Okay, fair points. However....

Do the stats not also favor Bortles because of level of competition? I mean, they play in the same conference.

IMHO I find Ohio, Florida International and Missouri State to be stat inflators vs South Carolina, Penn St, Ohio St and Missouri who are not as much. Manziel plays in the SEC.

The stats also favor Carr and Manziel because of the offenses they play in. Bridgewater is the only one who plays in a pro-style offense.

IMHO I think some folks are making to much of the offensive styles. They all take most snaps in shotgun, they all are fairly balanced. And while everyone is always very quick to say Bridgewater plays in Pro-Style Offense he also had 45 more passing attempts (427) than Bortles (382) and almost the exact same passing attemtps as Manziel (429).

Bridgewater also had the opportunity to play with the #1 Defense. This put him in the position of not having to play from behind very often, better field position, positive time of possession, all conducive to helping produce more positive offensive stats. Imagine Johnny Manziel with that #1 Defense.

WolverineFan
01-15-2014, 11:45 AM
IMHO I find Ohio, Florida International and Missouri State to be stat inflators vs South Carolina, Penn St, Ohio St and Missouri who are not as much. Manziel plays in the SEC.

I was talking about the fact that you always talk about Bridgewater's level of competition, but never Bortles'. We all know Manziel plays in the SEC. I wasn't talking about his level of competition. There should be no doubt that UCF has played much better out of conference competition than Louisville has, but that doesn't mean that Bortles should be absolved of the level of competition argument. It's not like he blew it up in those games.

In the 5 games against Ohio State, Missouri, Penn State, South Carolina, and Baylor; Bortles threw 12 TD's with 8 INT's and 1 fumble.

In the 3 games against North Carolina, Florida, and Miami; Bridgewater threw 8 TD's and 1 INT.

Bortles has definitely been exposed to more high level competition, but he didn't play as well as Bridgewater did in those situations so I fail to see how his 'level of competition' tag is lifted while Bridgewater's is only enforced. They performed about the same in conference play, but against superior competition Bridgewater was better.


IMHO I think some folks are making to much of the offensive styles. They all take most snaps in shotgun, they all are fairly balanced. And while everyone is always very quick to say Bridgewater plays in Pro-Style Offense he also had 45 more passing attempts (427) than Bortles (382) and almost the exact same passing attemtps as Manziel (429).

Bridgewater also had the opportunity to play with the #1 Defense. This put him in the position of not having to play from behind very often, better field position, positive time of possession, all conducive to helping produce more positive offensive stats. Imagine Johnny Manziel with that #1 Defense.

Bridgewater probably takes about half of his snaps from under center, Manziel takes 99% of his from shotgun. Louisville runs a balanced offense. A&M runs a somewhat balanced offense, but Manziel is the leading rusher. It's a one-man show. And Bridgewater throwing the ball as much as Manziel has no impact on what offense they run. At the end of the day, Bridgewater played in a pro style offense for 3 years and Manziel played in a passing spread for 2. It doesn't matter what the numbers say, that is still a fact.

Also, if Manziel had the #1 defense behind him his stats would look nowhere near as good because his team would be leading instead of trailing all the time. And, despite playing with a good defense, Bridgewater has still proven he can come from behind and win a game. It shouldn't count against him that he has a good defense because he has proven he can win games without one.

TexansFTW
01-15-2014, 02:35 PM
Well said Wolverine.

Because of the title of this thread I wanted to just leave this here, hope yall change your minds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGsJ5hpdjqs

Texian
01-15-2014, 03:38 PM
I was talking about the fact that you always talk about Bridgewater's level of competition, but never Bortles'. We all know Manziel plays in the SEC. I wasn't talking about his level of competition. There should be no doubt that UCF has played much better out of conference competition than Louisville has, but that doesn't mean that Bortles should be absolved of the level of competition argument. It's not like he blew it up in those games.

In the 5 games against Ohio State, Missouri, Penn State, South Carolina, and Baylor; Bortles threw 12 TD's with 8 INT's and 1 fumble.

In the 3 games against North Carolina, Florida, and Miami; Bridgewater threw 8 TD's and 1 INT.

Bortles has definitely been exposed to more high level competition, but he didn't play as well as Bridgewater did in those situations so I fail to see how his 'level of competition' tag is lifted while Bridgewater's is only enforced. They performed about the same in conference play, but against superior competition Bridgewater was better.




Bridgewater probably takes about half of his snaps from under center, Manziel takes 99% of his from shotgun. Louisville runs a balanced offense. A&M runs a somewhat balanced offense, but Manziel is the leading rusher. It's a one-man show. And Bridgewater throwing the ball as much as Manziel has no impact on what offense they run. At the end of the day, Bridgewater played in a pro style offense for 3 years and Manziel played in a passing spread for 2. It doesn't matter what the numbers say, that is still a fact.

Also, if Manziel had the #1 defense behind him his stats would look nowhere near as good because his team would be leading instead of trailing all the time. And, despite playing with a good defense, Bridgewater has still proven he can come from behind and win a game. It shouldn't count against him that he has a good defense because he has proven he can win games without one.

Let me make this as simple as can for you, I know it's difficult for a Teddy fanatic to understand. Out of conference games Teddy played some REAL PANSIES and as a result he was able to inflate his statistics because of it. More so than Bortles could playing out of conference foe's like Penn St and South Carolina. What part of this do you not understand? You can't make it any simpler. Good Grief!

Playoffs
01-23-2014, 12:22 PM
James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN
Talking with a lot of #NFL people at #Senior Bowl, they all say it's too early to say who is the top QB (Manziel, Bridgewater, Bortles) #Texans

Playoffs
02-05-2014, 07:48 PM
Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock
1) Teddy Bridgewater 2) Blake Bortles 3) Derek Carr 4) Johnny Manziel

If I am giving just a generic ranking of the 4 QBs that I'm comfortable with my evaluation as of today, they would be as follow....

Like any other position, QB rankings will vary depending on the type of offense that the signal callers would play in.

Fresno State had Carr get off the ball quick in '13 & this makes it harder to tell how much he developed vs pressure.

Carr has such great arm strength that he relies on it heavy & this has led to his down field touch passes to be lacking.

He trusts his WRs & throws up a lot of "50/50" balls. Depending on a teams WR group, some GMs will see this as another risk.

Derek also locks in on timing routes & despite what the defense gives/takes away, he'll still throw the designed timing route.

Carr rolls out and throws back over the middle across his body. Despite multiple picks on these passes it's still an element of his game.

Carr has a bad case of "ego arm" too. It's when QBs w/ exceptional arm strength think the rules don't apply to them & go against the norm

While Carr stood in there more vs SD State in '13, he still had a hard time adjusting & his accuracy paid the price severely.

Dropping LBs/DL men still give him major issues. SD State in '13 took away some things from teams in 2012 by standing 6 & confusing him.

Carr has great pocket mobility & natural feet, but not a 6th sense too "feeling" pressure.

When Derek sets his feet, he delivers with heat & accuracy & fits the ball into almost any window.

Derek Carr has progressed in the face of pressure from recoil to not following thru or pulling away from target mid throw. Still an issue.

In 2011-12 Carr reminded me of Blaine Gabbert in the manner he recoiled from pressure. He also has bonehead moments similar to Jake Plummer

There are bits of Brett Favre in Carr's game...good & bad. He reminds me of Ryan Tannehill as far as anticipation on hitches & outs.

Let's talk some Derek Carr. I've given my assessment on Bridgewater, Bortles, & Manziel. Now it's time for Carr.

kiwitexansfan
02-06-2014, 01:35 AM
Carr vs. Pressure is my biggest issue. Happy feet are death to a NFL career.

Playoffs
02-16-2014, 03:00 PM
One NFL scout told the Bengals' website that this year's top draft-eligible quarterbacks have "enough pros and cons" that they deserve to be selected around the 35th overall pick "if there wasn't such a need at the top of the draft."

In other words, the scout seemingly believes Teddy Bridgewater, Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel, and Derek Carr are all not elite franchise quarterback-type talents. We've seen it suggested previously that this year's QB class compares to 2011's, when Jake Locker (No. 8), Blaine Gabbert (10), and Christian Ponder (12) were all severely overdrafted. The Texans, Jaguars, Browns, and Raiders all need quarterbacks this year, and all draft in the top five. Feb 16 - 3:38 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9349/derek-carr

Playoffs
02-16-2014, 06:06 PM
Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock (https://twitter.com/JaysonBraddock)
Sorry for the delay, I will finally release my Top 15 QB rankings here in the next few minutes. #NFLDraft

Top 15 QB Prospects - 2014 NFL Draft: 15) Logan Thomas 14) Tajh Boyd 13) David Fales 12) Stephen Morris 11) Keith Wenning 10) AJ McCarron

Top 15 QB Prospects- 2014 NFL Draft: 9) Jimmy Garoppollo 8) Aaron Murray 7) Connor Shaw 6) Johnny Manziel 5) Derek Carr 4) Zach Mettenberger

Top 15 QB Prospects - 2014 NFL Draft: 3) Blake Bortles 2) Teddy Bridgewater 1) Brett Smith

The man has his own take -- gotta respect that. :tiphat:

His "Pop 4" notes: http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/

ArlingtonTexan
02-17-2014, 10:17 AM
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9349/derek-carr

I think this class is "better" than 2011,but not what you want to be looking at when you have the 1st overall pick. Unlike the 2011, the players here all have a good history of production (especially good overall completion percentages and TD/Int ratios). EVery prospect has a pretty obvious flaw, but in the end I think 2 or 3 of them will turn into average to pretty good starters, but won't true team carriers.

thunderkyss
02-17-2014, 12:00 PM
I think this class is "better" than 2011,but not what you want to be looking at when you have the 1st overall pick. Unlike the 2011, the players here all have a good history of production (especially good overall completion percentages and TD/Int ratios). EVery prospect has a pretty obvious flaw, but in the end I think 2 or 3 of them will turn into average to pretty good starters, but won't true team carriers.

For the most part I agree. But you never know. You might get a H.O.F. in this draft, a GOAT. They've all got the talent. Several of them are smart enough. A couple of them already have the drive. It's going to depend on how they are developed, & how they allow themselves to develop after the draft.

Playoffs
02-17-2014, 01:33 PM
Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock (https://twitter.com/JaysonBraddock)


The man has his own take -- gotta respect that. :tiphat:

His "Pop 4" notes: http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/
...and the rest of the best:

AJ McCarron Breakdown (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)

The 2014 NFL Draft season is upon us. As this lengthy process goes on, I’ll give you a quick rundown of the pros and cons of each prospect as seen through my eyes.

I’ve never been a fan of the blanket statement “all he does is win”. If that argument held water, McCarron would be the first overall pick. Here is my assessment on the former Alabama QB.

Pros:
AJ is comfortable going through his progressions and has the ability to see the whole field...

Cons:
I can’t recall one throw in which he impressed me by sticking the ball into an evaporating window....He has a subpar arm and fights to get it 50-55 yards downfield...
__________________________________________________ ________________

Brett Smith Breakdown (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)

I head out to Wyoming for the next evaluation. Who said nothing good happens in Wyoming?

Pros:
Brett Smith... makes more NFL throws than all the other quarterback prospects combined. He completes passes that the others can’t or won’t...

Cons:
The big knock on Brett Smith will surround his undersized frame...

__________________________________________________ ________________


Zach Mettenberger Breakdown (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)

Time to evaluate what sounds like a New York baseball fan’s afternoon activities (Mets and burgers). Zach Mettenberger now enters the hot seat.

Pros:
Zach has great size and a big arm that can make any throw that he’s asked to. He’s especially talented with throws outside the numbers with anticipation ...

Cons:
LSU is such a dominant defense and has a great power running game that I’m not sold on...

__________________________________________________ ________________


Aaron Murray Breakdown (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)

This next QB evaluation takes a look at Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, a.k.a. Aaron Murray.

Pros:
When he’s not forced off the point and allowed to scan his reads in a timely manner, he throws with velocity, anticipation and accuracy...

Cons:
Mr. Hyde shows up on film when teams continuously put him under pressure...

__________________________________________________ ________________


Logan Thomas Breakdown (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)

It’s time to go evaluate something called a Hokie. Logan Thomas enters the quarterback evaluation conversation, but I’m not sure that’s the right category for him.

Pros:
He’s obviously got a great frame...

Cons:
He’s easily the most inaccurate quarterback...

__________________________________________________ ________________

Tajh Boyd Breakdown (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)

The next quarterback stepping up to the evaluation table is none other than Tajh Boyd. Clemson doesn’t have a great track record when it comes to NFL quarterbacks. Will Boyd be the exception?

Pros:
As a runner Tajh is very physical and deceptively quick...

Cons:
While Tajh doesn’t struggle with making the stick throws, dialing it back has been a concern. Boyd doesn’t show much touch, unless...

__________________________________________________ ________________

David Fales Breakdown (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)

My quarterback adventure takes me to San Jose State. David Fales will attempt to prove skeptics wrong during this draft season.

Pros:
David Fales has shown a knack of completing passes to covered up receivers by...

Cons:
His throwing motion is less than desirable and at times he...

__________________________________________________ ________________

Jimmy Garoppolo Breakdown (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)

The QB evaluations take us to Eastern Illinois, born and raised, on the playground is where Jimmy Garoppolo spent most of his days.

Pros:
Jimmy has one of the quickest releases I’ve seen. He could benefit from...

Cons:
Garoppolo has decent touch and accuracy, but he should have been better due...

__________________________________________________ ________________

Connor Shaw Breakdown (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)

Let’s go to the Palmetto state to check out Connor Shaw. This under the radar signal caller deserves his moment in the spotlight.

Pros:
I was surprised initially by Connor’s arm strength and velocity...

Cons:
Some may wonder why I would compare Shaw more favorably to Russell Wilson than Johnny Manziel, but then rank Shaw behind...

Playoffs
02-18-2014, 01:56 PM
James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN
Just for fun, here are @twitter followers for 3 QBs that #Texans could take at 1:

Manziel (755,000)
Bridgewater (27,900)
Bortles (9,466).

Playoffs
02-19-2014, 12:07 PM
QB metrics...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg2qIFDCUAEhrm_.png (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg2qIFDCUAEhrm_.png)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg2qIFDCUAEhrm_.png

thunderkyss
02-19-2014, 12:29 PM
QB metrics...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg2qIFDCUAEhrm_.png (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg2qIFDCUAEhrm_.png)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg2qIFDCUAEhrm_.png

Manziel, Murray, Mettenberger, & McCarron all played in the SEC.

Do you factor in some kind of correction factor for that as compared to the AAC (Bridgewater & Bortles) or do you look compare those numbers straight up?

Playoffs
02-19-2014, 01:18 PM
Manziel, Murray, Mettenberger, & McCarron all played in the SEC.

Do you factor in some kind of correction factor for that as compared to the AAC (Bridgewater & Bortles) or do you look compare those numbers straight up?

Not for QB accuracy, no.

WolverineFan
02-19-2014, 02:37 PM
Manziel, Murray, Mettenberger, & McCarron all played in the SEC.

I really am tired of hearing this. The SEC placed 6 teams in the top 25 of total defense. They also placed 6 teams at 75th or worse. There are some great defenses in the SEC, but there are also some really bad ones and not every SEC QB faces only the great ones.

Numbers against Top 25 Defenses last year...

Manziel
- All (4) top 25 defenses faced were SEC.

64.3% comp
9.1 ypa
13 TD
7 INT


McCarron
- Faced (2) top 25 defenses from SEC. Also faced (1) ACC.

56.0% comp
6.4 ypa
6 TD
3 INT


Mettenberger
- Faced (3) top 25 defenses from SEC. Also faced (1) Big 12.

65.3% comp
9.7 ypa
4 TD
1 INT


Murray
- Faced (4) top 25 defenses from SEC. Also faced (1) from ACC and (1) from Sun Belt.

65.7% comp
10.1 ypa
12 TD
4 INT

infantrycak
02-19-2014, 03:47 PM
Manziel, Murray, Mettenberger, & McCarron all played in the SEC.

Do you factor in some kind of correction factor for that as compared to the AAC (Bridgewater & Bortles) or do you look compare those numbers straight up?

Why would you? Do the normal laws of physics not apply in the SEC?

thunderkyss
02-19-2014, 05:40 PM
Why would you? Do the normal laws of physics not apply in the SEC?

I don't like completion percentages as a measure of accuracy anyway. The guy on the other end has to catch the ball.

Still, If you're going to put the ball where only your guy can catch the ball, you might throw it half an inch higher in almost every case you'd want to throw it high... 3/4" wider in every case you might want to throw it wide... or you may be more apt to under throw the ball in more cases in a major conference than you would if you were playing in the AAC where very few players are likely to make the jump to the NFL.

It's still college, but I'm looking for HaHa Dix & adjusting my game because he's out there.

I understand that Louisville had the #1 defense...... but they didn't play in the Big12, Pac-12, ACC... & Bridgewater didn't have to play them (like Bortles did & beat them).

It's a lot easier to put the ball where you want when you don't have Jadaveon Clowney, Michael Sam, or Dee Ford (or even Marcus Smith) to worry about.

Playoffs
02-19-2014, 05:45 PM
I don't like completion percentages as a measure of accuracy anyway. The guy on the other end has to catch the ball...
Those aren't completion percentages.

thunderkyss
02-19-2014, 06:02 PM
Those aren't completion percentages.

I know.

Texian
02-19-2014, 06:03 PM
I don't like completion percentages as a measure of accuracy anyway. The guy on the other end has to catch the ball.


For me it's all in how you look at it. Take Derek Carr and his 600+ attempts, that tells me BUYER BEWARE. There are a lot of dinks (LOS) and dunks (< 5yds) in those 600+ attempts. Tends to inflate comp %. Also tells me maybe less accurate on attempts more than > 15 yds. vs a QB who has a more normal average of 350 attempts and comp % a better indicator of accuracy.

WolverineFan
02-19-2014, 09:22 PM
It's a lot easier to put the ball where you want when you don't have Jadaveon Clowney, Michael Sam, or Dee Ford (or even Marcus Smith) to worry about.

It's also a lot easier to complete passes to Odell Beckham, Jarvis Landry, Mike Evans, and Amari Cooper.

bah007
02-19-2014, 09:24 PM
I don't like completion percentages as a measure of accuracy anyway. The guy on the other end has to catch the ball.

Still, If you're going to put the ball where only your guy can catch the ball, you might throw it half an inch higher in almost every case you'd want to throw it high... 3/4" wider in every case you might want to throw it wide... or you may be more apt to under throw the ball in more cases in a major conference than you would if you were playing in the AAC where very few players are likely to make the jump to the NFL.

It's still college, but I'm looking for HaHa Dix & adjusting my game because he's out there.

I understand that Louisville had the #1 defense...... but they didn't play in the Big12, Pac-12, ACC... & Bridgewater didn't have to play them (like Bortles did & beat them).

It's a lot easier to put the ball where you want when you don't have Jadaveon Clowney, Michael Sam, or Dee Ford (or even Marcus Smith) to worry about.

Your point is valid. But it's also a lot easier to complete a pass when you have Mike Evans running routes and Jake Matthews, Cedric Ogbuehi, Jarvis Harrison, and Mike Matthews blocking for you.

thunderkyss
02-19-2014, 09:44 PM
Your point is valid. But it's also a lot easier to complete a pass when you have Mike Evans running routes and Jake Matthews, Cedric Ogbuehi, Jarvis Harrison, and Mike Matthews blocking for you.

True. Which is why I wonder why a guy like Aj McCarron seemingly suffers more for being on a talented team than Manziel (I don't think Manziel should be drafted at 1-1 any more than Bridgewater. My whole contention from the beginning is that these guys are closer than some think (for different reasons) & none of them, imo, grade out as a top 10 (much less top 5) pick on their own. If we're saying this is a weak draft, I can see that, but looking at the other top 25 players that doesn't appear to be the case). A&M is much more talented in 2013 than Alabama, at least offensively. Alabama had a better defense than A&M (Manziel still skooled them) but not the #1 defense.

LSU was more talented, offensively, than Alabama & Mettenberger (with a torn knee) hasn't suffered as much as McCarron.

That might not have been the case in 2011, or 2012, but in 2013 A&M and LSU had more NFL talent on the offensive side of the ball than Alabama.

Playoffs
02-20-2014, 12:11 PM
No-Huddle Series: David Fales, Developmental Gem? (http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2014/02/20/no-huddle-series-david-fales-developmental-gem/)
by MATT WALDMAN

Can San Jose State quarterback David Fales develop more velocity on this throws like Drew Brees? Read on.

Eric Stoner at Draft Mecca is one of the first draftniks I know who watched David Fales and liked his game. I do, too. When I talked about what I saw in the 6-1, 22o-lb.starter at San Jose State to a scout I know, his response was that Fales has a “niche market” – and the scout includes himself in that group...

Playoffs
02-20-2014, 12:35 PM
Inside Slant: Shopping for (cheap) QBs (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/117103/inside-slant-shopping-for-cheap-qbs)
Jimmy Garoppolo
School: Eastern Illinois
Muench: "He's a hot name for good reason. There are some things he needs to work on, especially his footwork in the pocket. But he's got a lightning-quick release, enough arm strength and a pretty decent frame (6-foot-3, 223 pounds). If there weren't concerns about the level of competition, he could be a first-round guy. We have him as a third- or fourth-round guy, but a lot of people are excited about him."

AJ McCarron
School: Alabama
Muench: "If you're a team like Seattle, with a good defense and running game, and you need a guy to play well but maybe not elite, McCarron is probably the best example of that kind of player. You look at how many games he's won and how well he played in college. That speaks to something. The concern comes down to arm strength. He doesn't have the strongest arm. He will never be that vertical guy. But if you're looking for someone to play under those circumstances, to run your offense even if he is never an elite quarterback, I can see it for sure."

Logan Thomas
School: Virginia Tech
Muench: "He is a Kaepernick type in that he's very athletic and has a great arm. But in his case, there are questions about his accuracy, footwork and decision-making. I was at the Senior Bowl and the team sitting behind us was saying they would love to draft him and rebuild. You look at him and he's 6-5 1/2, he's 250 pounds and he has huge hands (10.6 inches), which is a big deal for quarterbacks. Teams with a good offensive system might want to take him and do what the 49ers did with Kaepernick. Use him as a backup for a year, year and a half, and then play him. He'll be the type who can make plays with his feet and be a powerful runner while he is learning the pro passing game."

Zach Mettenberger
School: LSU
Muench: "He tore his ACL [last fall] but mobility wasn't really an aspect of his game anyway. There are some who will say that his offensive coordinator, Cam Cameron, made things easy for him and that he had a great supporting cast there. But he is has an NFL brain, he's 6-5 and 240 pounds and he has maybe the strongest arm in this class. We have a third-round grade on him."

Those were the four candidates Muench gave me when we discussed this premise. I then asked about two other quarterbacks whom even casual college football observers would be aware of in this draft.

Aaron Murray
School: Georgia
Muench: [Like Mettenberger, Murray tore his ACL last fall.] "He's tough and accurate, but people are going to look at his size. He's not even 6-1 and he's 200 pounds with smaller hands. What it will come down to for him is that this injury and his frame makes durability a legitimate concern. Some people see the frame and say, 'Russell Wilson,' but Russell Wilson is a far better athlete. He's a fourth-round talent."

Tajh Boyd
School: Clemson
Muench: "You're looking at a successful college player, but the scheme he played in raises a lot of questions about his ability to transition. You watch tape and see him having a hard time with his progressions and you wonder how much practice he's had doing what he'll have to do in the NFL. What he ran at Clemson is a package in the NFL, not an offense. You have to make plays in the pocket in the NFL, and that's a huge problem for Boyd based on what we've seen. I could see him as a late-fifth-round guy."

These evaluations are all subject to change as we move through the combine and into pro days. But at this point, most NFL teams have a strong base evaluation of players. They're now moving into the period of confirming or denying those initial thoughts. And we're off ...

htownfan32
02-20-2014, 01:04 PM
True. Which is why I wonder why a guy like Aj McCarron seemingly suffers more for being on a talented team than Manziel (I don't think Manziel should be drafted at 1-1 any more than Bridgewater. My whole contention from the beginning is that these guys are closer than some think (for different reasons) & none of them, imo, grade out as a top 10 (much less top 5) pick on their own. If we're saying this is a weak draft, I can see that, but looking at the other top 25 players that doesn't appear to be the case). A&M is much more talented in 2013 than Alabama, at least offensively. Alabama had a better defense than A&M (Manziel still skooled them) but not the #1 defense.

LSU was more talented, offensively, than Alabama & Mettenberger (with a torn knee) hasn't suffered as much as McCarron.

That might not have been the case in 2011, or 2012, but in 2013 A&M and LSU had more NFL talent on the offensive side of the ball than Alabama.

Manziel won in spite of a crappy defense. McCarron couldn't win it all even with one of the most balanced teams in CFB. Even though McCarron won more, he contributed less to the wins his team got than Manziel did.

Here's the difference. Plug in Manziel behind Alabama's center and you have a national championship. Plug in McCarron behind A&M's center and you have 7 wins at best.

thunderkyss
02-20-2014, 01:42 PM
Manziel won in spite of a crappy defense. McCarron couldn't win it all even with one of the most balanced teams in CFB. Even though McCarron won more, he contributed less to the wins his team got than Manziel did.

Here's the difference. Plug in Manziel behind Alabama's center and you have a national championship. Plug in McCarron behind A&M's center and you have 7 wins at best.

First of all, had McCarron won the NC, again, he'd be the first QB to win back to back to back in the BCS era. You think maybe twice is enough?

Second, we don't know how McCarron would have done on A&Ms 2013 team. Just because he wasn't put in the position that Manziel was doesn't mean he wouldn't have excelled.

Third, McCarron did more for the 2013 Crimson Tide than he's getting credit for. There is definite improvement in his ability to lead that team from 2011 to 2012 then in 2013.

Fourth, the point is that A&M and Louisville are pretty damn talented as well.
Matthews, Evans, Manziel, & probably Amaro will all go in the first round. Only one Alabama offensive player will be considered in the first round, some are projecting him as an early 2nd.

And, Bridgewater had the #1 defense on his side & couldn't win the AAC Championship. Not once in his career.

matts290
02-20-2014, 03:02 PM
Fourth, the point is that A&M and Louisville are pretty damn talented as well.
Matthews, Evans, Manziel, & probably Amaro will all go in the first round. Only one Alabama offensive player will be considered in the first round, some are projecting him as an early 2nd.


What does a Texas Tech player have to do with this...

Also Bama has 3 potential first round players; Kouandijo, Mosley, and Ha Ha. Also don't forget TJ Yeldon and Amari Cooper both currently project as high round players in the NFL.

htownfan32
02-20-2014, 04:44 PM
First of all, had McCarron won the NC, again, he'd be the first QB to win back to back to back in the BCS era. You think maybe twice is enough?

Second, we don't know how McCarron would have done on A&Ms 2013 team. Just because he wasn't put in the position that Manziel was doesn't mean he wouldn't have excelled.

Third, McCarron did more for the 2013 Crimson Tide than he's getting credit for. There is definite improvement in his ability to lead that team from 2011 to 2012 then in 2013.

Fourth, the point is that A&M and Louisville are pretty damn talented as well.
Matthews, Evans, Manziel, & probably Amaro will all go in the first round. Only one Alabama offensive player will be considered in the first round, some are projecting him as an early 2nd.

And, Bridgewater had the #1 defense on his side & couldn't win the AAC Championship. Not once in his career.


Regarding point one - while it is great that' he's won 2 championships, that doesn't negate the argument that the rest of the team with him was strong, too. Look at the guys Bama has put out in the past few years. Mark Barron, Eddie Lacy, Courtney Upshaw... Bama is a great TEAM, all round.

Bama won a championship with McElroy too, remember?

Regarding point two - fair enough. However, you're going to have to point out a game where McCarron really and truly put his team on his back, without the help of his running backs and his defense, and carried them to a victory. I think 90% of people would say that McCarron could not do for A&M what Manziel did. It's not about offensive firepower either. I don't think McCarron could overcome that crappy A&M defense. Not many quarterbacks could.

Regarding your fourth point - please don't be disingenuous. The AAC has only been around for 1 year. Louisville under Bridgewater were Big East champions in 2011 and 2012. You're also missing the point talking about talent on the offensive side. Yes, Manziel had a great weapon in Mike Evans. He also had the one of the, if not the most, crappy defense in the FBS.

Marshall
02-20-2014, 04:46 PM
Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock (https://twitter.com/JaysonBraddock)


The man has his own take -- gotta respect that. :tiphat:

His "Pop 4" notes: http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/

I respect it as I do all comedic writers.

thunderkyss
02-20-2014, 04:57 PM
What does a Texas Tech player have to do with this...


I don't know why I keep thinking he played for A&M.


Also Bama has 3 potential first round players; Kouandijo, Mosley, and Ha Ha.


I specifically said offense. When referring to Manziel. I point out that Louisville had the #1 defense to offset 'bama's D.


Also don't forget TJ Yeldon and Amari Cooper both currently project as high round players in the NFL.

The point is that A&M is pretty talented in their own right. I'm not saying Alabama isn't. McCarron is taking his blows for it. Manziel isn't. Johnny's got more "wow" I'm not denying that. His play making ability seems second nature. But whether that can translate to the NFL is debatable....

Manziel's arm is no stronger than McCarron's. Aj has the size. His numbers are comparable. He played in a "pro-ish" offense, more pro than what Manziel played in. He takes care of the ball, he's smart. He's played on the biggest stages. He's athletic.... not Manziel athletic, but athletic.

Again, my point is not that Aj McCarron is all that, but that Manziel/Bridgewater aren't much better. McCarron is getting knocked for playing on a talented team. A&M is a talented team.

htownfan32
02-20-2014, 04:59 PM
I don't know why I keep thinking he played for A&M.



I specifically said offense. When referring to Manziel. I point out that Louisville had the #1 defense to offset 'bama's D.



The point is that A&M is pretty talented in their own right. I'm not saying Alabama isn't. McCarron is taking his blows for it. Manziel isn't. Johnny's got more "wow" I'm not denying that. His play making ability seems second nature. But whether that can translate to the NFL is debatable....

Manziel's arm is no stronger than McCarron's. Aj has the size. His numbers are comparable. He played in a "pro-ish" offense, more pro than what Manziel played in. He takes care of the ball, he's smart. He's played on the biggest stages. He's athletic.... not Manziel athletic, but athletic.

Again, my point is not that Aj McCarron is all that, but that Manziel/Bridgewater aren't much better. McCarron is getting knocked for playing on a talented team. A&M is a talented team.

A&M is a talented offense. It's the worst defense of any major football program.

thunderkyss
02-20-2014, 05:03 PM
Regarding point two - fair enough. However, you're going to have to point out a game where McCarron really and truly put his team on his back, without the help of his running backs and his defense, and carried them to a victory. I think 90% of people would say that McCarron could not do for A&M what Manziel did. It's not about offensive firepower either. I don't think McCarron could overcome that crappy A&M defense. Not many quarterbacks could.


I'd like to see what Manziel could do without Mike Evans or Jake Matthews.


Regarding your fourth point - please don't be disingenuous. The AAC has only been around for 1 year.

True.

matts290
02-20-2014, 05:17 PM
I don't know why I keep thinking he played for A&M.

It's best to at least give an appearance of knowing about college football when trying to argue about it.

I specifically said offense. When referring to Manziel. I point out that Louisville had the #1 defense to offset 'bama's D.

Does it matter though, the supposed knock on McCarron that you are referring is that people say he has played on a talented team...meaning offense, defense and special teams. In the overall makeup, Alabama has been the most talented team in football in the last 5 or 6 years, evident by their 3 championships, top recruiting class, and litter of talent in the NFL.


The point is that A&M is pretty talented in their own right. I'm not saying Alabama isn't. McCarron is taking his blows for it. Manziel isn't. Johnny's got more "wow" I'm not denying that. His play making ability seems second nature. But whether that can translate to the NFL is debatable....

A&M is talented, yes, as are most of the the teams in the SEC...but as an overall team they are not on the same talent level as Alabama, that is just indisputable.

Manziel isn't getting blows for it because his claim to fame isn't "he wins", as it is with McCarron. Still, plenty of people talk about Manziel's stacked offensive line and throwing jump balls up to Evans...have you seriously not read these knocks on him, its been mentioned plenty.

Manziel's arm is no stronger than McCarron's.
Ok now you are going full blown homer mode. McCarron has an incredibly underwhelming arm, anyone that has watched him will tell you that. Sure Manziel doesn't have a rocket, but his ability to make throws downfield and on outs is much better than McCarron's

If you truly believe this you are beyond lost...

Aj has the size. His numbers are comparable. He played in a "pro-ish" offense, more pro than what Manziel played in. He takes care of the ball, he's smart. He's played on the biggest stages. He's athletic.... not Manziel athletic, but athletic.

His numbers are comparable? HA! What is your definition of comparable?
3,063 total yards, 28 total TDs and & INTs vs 4913 total yards, 46 TDs and 11 INTs. In what crazy world do you live in where those numbers are comparable.

htownfan32
02-20-2014, 05:45 PM
I'd like to see what Manziel could do without Mike Evans or Jake Matthews.



True.

That's what everyone said the year before. "I'd like to see what Manziel could do without Ryan Swope or Luke Joeckel."

Playoffs
02-20-2014, 08:35 PM
Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet
Clemson QB Tajh Boyd is another one who plans on doing everything, including throwing, at the @NFL Scouting Combine this week.

San Jose St. QB David Fales plans on doing everything at the Combine, including throwing. Same as @BBortles5

ObsiWan
02-21-2014, 01:08 AM
...and the rest of the best:

Brett Smith Breakdown (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)

I head out to Wyoming for the next evaluation. Who said nothing good happens in Wyoming?

Pros:
Brett Smith... makes more NFL throws than all the other quarterback prospects combined. He completes passes that the others can’t or won’t...

Cons:
The big knock on Brett Smith will surround his undersized frame...
__________________________________________________ ________________

This Smith guy sounds interesting.

Why have we not heard more about him?
link (http://walterfootball.com/draft2014QB.php)
Brett Smith*, QB, Wyoming
Height: 6-3. Weight: 206.
Projected 40 Time: 4.69.
Projected Round (2014): 3-5.
1/13/14: Smith entered the 2014 NFL Draft after putting together his best collegiate season. The junior completed 63 percent of his passes in 2013 for 29 touchdowns and 11 interceptions. He also ran for 573 yards and four touchdowns. Smith has some size and athleticism to him, but will need to impress at the NFL Scouting Combine and pre-draft workouts to make it into the second day of the draft.

Smith was very consistent for Wyoming over the past three seasons. In 2012, he completed 62 percent of his throws for 2,832 yards with 27 touchdowns and six interceptions. During his freshman season, Smith completed 61 percent for 2,622 yards with 20 touchdowns and 11 interceptions.

Link2 (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)
Pros:
I was pleasantly surprised by what I saw from Brett Smith when I started watching. Every year there are quarterbacks that no one is talking about and then I put on the film and I’m blown away. Brett Smith is that guy for 2014. He makes more NFL throws than all the other quarterback prospects combined. He completes passes that the others can’t or won’t.

Brett is fearless and has the ability to needle the ball into tight windows.


Smith has better complete command on his touch and velocity than any other prospect in this class. I’ve seen him drop in a 35 yard rainbow that attacked triple coverage and fell in the only angle that could be completed. Then I saw him split a safety and corner with a dime that could have been completed if the trajectory was any higher or lower or had a 10th of the speed dialed back.


Brett is almost impossible to bring down in the pocket as he’s an escape artist that will be a threat to run or get outside the pocket to create more time for his receivers to separate.


He has plenty of arm and delivers the ball from the far hash to the field sideline with velocity. This is one of the hardest throws to make and Smith attempts and completes it regularly.


When watching Smith as a sophomore I saw happy feet in the pocket and his risk throws were multiple and really devalued his stock as an NFL prospect. As a junior he showed tremendous growth in both areas and started making for calculated risk / reward plays. He’ll continue to grow and develop with an NFL coaching staff.


Cons:
The big knock on Brett Smith will surround his undersized frame. He has to add bulk and prove that he can keep his elusiveness. Some teams may consider him a risk after seeing Robert Griffin III battle to stay on the field.


Smith will turn off other OCs, GMs, and head coaches by his delivery. He releases the ball at close to a 45% angle. Some will want to tinker with his delivery as they may fear that it’ll cause too many batted balls at the line. Colin Kaepernick had critics questions his delivery and frame when he was coming out of Nevada. I’d leave his throwing motion alone if I was a coaching staff.


Brett didn’t do much, if any work under center at Wyoming. This may cause a red flag in more than one area. As previously mentioned, the throwing motion could cause more issues if he’s asked to play in an offense with 3 step drops from center. Also, some coaches will question how quick he’ll pick up a pro-style offense and the comfort level / adjustment from turning his back to the defense.


On big plays he has a tendency to occasionally take off velocity and add too much touch to ensure a completion. This tendency to play it safe could backfire in the NFL if he allows the faster, bigger defensive backs more time to break on passes.


In my opinion, Brett Smith should be the first Wyoming player drafted in the first round since 2 went in the 1976 first round (Lawrence Gaines and Aaron Kyle).


Brett Smith is a better downfield passer than Teddy Bridgewater, has the ability to escape like Johnny Manziel, corrected the mental collapses that Blake Bortles still struggles with and can deliver in tight windows like Derek Carr. While Smith may still have some concerns, I’d name him as the #1 quarterback prospect in this class.


It's because he played in Wyoming isn't it?

kiwitexansfan
02-21-2014, 02:00 AM
This Smith guy sounds interesting.

Why have we not heard more about him?
link (http://walterfootball.com/draft2014QB.php)


Link2 (http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-deep-post-w-jayson-braddock-52397/braddock-assessing-2nd-to-7th-round-quarterbacks-12053064/)


It's because he played in Wyoming isn't it?
[/COLOR][/LEFT]

He's got his own thread further down the page.

Texian
02-21-2014, 02:57 PM
No-Huddle Series: David Fales, Developmental Gem? (http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2014/02/20/no-huddle-series-david-fales-developmental-gem/)
by MATT WALDMAN

I actually see some Aaron Rodgers in David Fales. Very similar paths.

thunderkyss
02-21-2014, 04:50 PM
I actually see some Aaron Rodgers in David Fales. Very similar paths.

So there's the question. Would Aaron Rodgers be "Aaron Rodgers" if he were selected #1 overall as the starting QB for the, then dysfunctional, SF 49ers?

Would he be "Aaron Rodgers" without that long awkward, camera on him after every pick, invite to Radio City Music Hall?

Would he be "Aaron Rodgers" without knowing he'll be replacing a legend & preparing for it?

Would GreenBay have selected Alex Smith to eventually replace Farve?

So much about these guys future depend on what happens to these guys after the draft. Which is why I'm not too worried about which one we get. As long as we set him up for success, we should be ok. If the team wins a lot of games, threaten a super bowl appearance often enough, we'll call our guy elite. If not, it's Rick Smith's fault for picking a dud
:kitten:

Playoffs
02-24-2014, 03:00 PM
That release :heart:

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
Former Colts GM Bill Polian just said on ESPN's NFL Insiders that he projects Eastern Illinois QB Jimmy Garoppolo to be a first-round pick.

Playoffs
02-24-2014, 10:41 PM
tweets read bottom(oldest)-to-top

Louis Riddick ‏@LRiddickESPN
Monumental task that goes way beyond "arm talent" if you are truly hoping to have a franchise QB. Great refresher convo. Always fascinating.

Just getting used to the verbiage some offenses use, remembering it, reciting it, making checks/reading defenses, remembering footwork...

..and that expectations will need to be managed big time relative to where many "may" get drafted.

Talking w/QB coach friend just now about QB development process in #NFL. Cautioned that many in '14 draft need significant fundamental work.

Playoffs
02-27-2014, 08:14 AM
Why the Quarterbacks Could Fall in the 2014 NFL Draft (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1974488-why-the-quarterbacks-could-fall-in-the-2014-nfl-draft)
I have been involved in scouting in the NFL since 1981 and one thing that has become apparent to me is that drafting follows trends. Starting with the 2008 draft...
Of the 15 quarterbacks taken, only one (Flacco) has taken his team to a Super Bowl. Ryan has been a perennial All-Pro and Newton and Luck are on the door step of being considered top NFL quarterbacks. Stafford has been inconsistent and the jury is out on Tannehill and RGIII. That means less than half of the first-round quarterbacks taken in those years have done what was hoped when their team drafted them.

My feeling is that because of the lack of success of the quarterbacks taken between 2008-2012, clubs didn't force the issue in 2013. Only one quarterback was taken in the first round last year with the Buffalo Bills selecting Florida State's E.J. Manuel with the 16th pick. Manuel dealt with injury issues much of the year but when he had the opportunity to play he showed that he has a chance to become a solid player.

Two of the best quarterbacks selected in the last three years were not taken in the first round. Russell Wilson just won a Super Bowl for Seattle and was a third-round pick in 2012. Colin Kaepernick took San Francisco to a Super Bowl and two NFC Conference championship games and he was a second-round pick in 2011. The other clubs in the NFL see this and take note!
...
Do the teams with a quarterback need pass on a player who looks as if he can become an excellent player to take a quarterback who may become a a good player? The more I look at tape on all the quarterbacks, the more I believe that there isn't a "franchise" quarterback in the group. The rule in drafting is you don't pass on a higher graded player to take a need. What I feel may happen is many of these teams will look to trade out of their top 10 slot, pick up extra draft picks and draft their quarterback a little later. There clubs may end up being that much stronger by using that strategy.

Recent history, has shown that if a club drafts a quarterback high and he doesn't produce, the people who made those decisions are on the outside looking in. The decision makers of the clubs that have a quarterback need know this and they have to be very sure they are making the right decision before pulling the trigger. Their job is on the line and it's for that reason I question if the quarterbacks are going to go as high as many think.

I know it goes against conventional wisdom but my gut feeling is we might not see a quarterback taken in the top eight and only three will end up actually going in the first round.

I will also predict that there will be quarterbacks taken after the first round this year who will out perform all the quarterbacks taken in the first. Time will tell.

TexansFTW
02-27-2014, 08:18 AM
Why the Quarterbacks Could Fall in the 2014 NFL Draft (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1974488-why-the-quarterbacks-could-fall-in-the-2014-nfl-draft)

I know you just relay and report articles like these as talking points, but just wanted to get your take...

Do you truly believe this?

Playoffs
02-27-2014, 09:46 AM
Do you truly believe this?

I believe it every down year for QB prospects... and then somebody overdrafts a QB "because even though we all know he's the 47th rated prospect you have to overdraft QBs", and I'm wrong again.

I do believe this this year...

Matt Waldman ‏@MattWaldman
This quarterback class is as muddy as old Municipal Stadium after the slush has melted.

...and I try to listen to guys with real NFL experience, like Greg Gabriel, the author, who's a 30+ year NFL scout.

I don't agree that you have to overdraft a guy because other needy teams will overdraft his position group... dumb is dumb, and it proves out in the long run. That's why the Titans, Jaguars, Vikings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_NFL_Draft) all need QBs still, imo. There's a reason why they do it, but I don't think that reason applies to the Texans.

I believe each draft class presents you with quality/depth at certain positions, and good organizations draft into those strengths while poor ones fight it drafting into a class' weaknesses. I think you'll see smart GMs trading up for/drafting WRs & OTs while waiting on S position that's a little thin this year.

I think it's wrong to pay more for less... but that's just me. ( And yes, I don't buy into most of the articles/tweets/opinions I post by any means... try to inform the group with multiple sides of the discussion.)

jradMIT
02-27-2014, 10:03 AM
You could argue in the case of Wilson and Kaepernick, that Qb's weren't overdrafted but the wrong qb's were overdrafted. Ponder, Gabbert, Locker are cautionary tales, although I think injuries played a major part in it all, but eventhough those guys were reaches, it doesn't mean that the next set of guys will be reaches. The evaluation methods have to evolve just as fast as the game. The past failures of players don't mean the next set of players will fail. But if they evaluation methods don't change or adjust to take account of these failures, you could very well repeat those mistakes. Its the basis of "we learn more from our failures than our successes"

thunderkyss
02-27-2014, 11:40 AM
You could argue in the case of Wilson and Kaepernick, that Qb's weren't overdrafted but the wrong qb's were overdrafted.


So you believe had Jacksonville drafted Osweiller & Tennessee drafted Wilson, Tennessee would have won a Super Bowl by now?


Ponder, Gabbert, Locker are cautionary tales, although I think injuries played a major part in it all, but eventhough those guys were reaches, it doesn't mean that the next set of guys will be reaches. The evaluation methods have to evolve just as fast as the game. The past failures of players don't mean the next set of players will fail. But if they evaluation methods don't change or adjust to take account of these failures, you could very well repeat those mistakes. Its the basis of "we learn more from our failures than our successes"

Eh..... I think teams should take a more holistic approach when addressing the draft. In 2011, the 49ers took Aldon Smith in the first & Kaepernick in the second. Even though they had Justin Smith & Patrick Willis & Alex Smith already.

There's not another DE/OLB they could have selected in the second round that comes close to the talent they got in Aldon Smith... & Kaepernick appears to be as good as any QB taken in the first round of that draft (Cam Newton) & better than most (Locker, Gabbert, Ponder).

Cincinnati took Aj Green, then Andy Dalton.

Jacksonville, it may have been understandable, since they didn't have a 2nd round pick.

Tennessee could have taken Jj Watt/Nick Fairly/Tyron Smith/Robert Quinn/Nate Solder.... & Tj Yates. Tj may not be their starting QB, but if they got him in the 4th, or 5th, nothing would have been stopping Tennessee from getting Osweiller in the second of 2012... or even Wilson.

TexansFTW
02-27-2014, 12:55 PM
So you believe had Jacksonville drafted Osweiller & Tennessee drafted Wilson, Tennessee would have won a Super Bowl by now?

Tennessee could have taken Jj Watt/Nick Fairly/Tyron Smith/Robert Quinn/Nate Solder.... & Tj Yates. Tj may not be their starting QB, but if they got him in the 4th, or 5th, nothing would have been stopping Tennessee from getting Osweiller in the second of 2012... or even Wilson.

No one is saying that. Just cause you don't see a QB as first round talent doesn't mean it's correct or that others don't also, but choose to overdraft them based on need.

You thought that AJ McCarron was a 1st round pick just 3 weeks ago, so not being rude, but maybe you just don't have an eye for QBs, I respect your opinion on the other positions though.

Most people believe that the top QBs are first round talent. They are NOT Andy Daltons being drafted in the first based on need. They are graded out significantly better overall. TB is graded out HIGHER than Cam Newton was.

TJ Yates is a loser bro and we've seen nothing from Brock O. Also, who is to say RusWil would be a Super Bowl champion on any other team? Personally, I don't know if he'd be a successful starter on many other teams in the NFL besides the Hawks.

EDIT: Came off a little rude, I apologize. Editing this so it's not so much attacking as much as disagreeing.

Playoffs
02-27-2014, 01:01 PM
Let's hope not...

Simms: Geno Smith better than any QB in the 2014 draft class (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000329616/article/simms-geno-smith-better-than-any-qb-in-the-2014-draft-class)
Phil Simms never is shy about offering an opinion, and the CBS NFL analyst expressed a few Wednesday on this year's class of quarterback prospects to NFL.com columnist Adam Schein on SirusXM's Mad Dog Sports Radio.

The most interesting opinion: "I think if Geno Smith was in this draft class he would be the number one guy, without question."...

TexansSeminole
02-27-2014, 01:48 PM
Let's hope not...

Simms: Geno Smith better than any QB in the 2014 draft class (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000329616/article/simms-geno-smith-better-than-any-qb-in-the-2014-draft-class)

New York guy talking about a New York QB. No surprise there.

Playoffs
02-27-2014, 02:00 PM
Browns notebook: NFL Network analyst Daniel Jeremiah says team has eye on Fresno State quarterback Derek Carr (http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns-notebook-nfl-network-analyst-daniel-jeremiah-says-team-has-eye-on-fresno-state-quarterback-derek-carr-1.469536)
...During an interview Wednesday with The Dan Patrick Show, Jeremiah said he has been told the Browns’ new regime of General Manager Ray Farmer and coach Mike Pettine would like to pick Fresno State’s Derek Carr with the team’s second selection in the first round (No. 26 overall) instead of using the fourth overall choice on a quarterback like Texas A&M’s Johnny Manziel.

“The one thing about the combine is, you get there, you’re around all your contacts, a lot of different NFL people,” said Jeremiah, a former scout for the Browns, Philadelphia Eagles and Baltimore Ravens. “And it had been so out there that the Browns loved Manziel under the previous regime, and I talked to enough people that firmly believe that that was a total smokescreen.

“Their guy is Derek Carr, and they’re going to take a different player with the fourth pick, and they want to take Derek Carr with their second (first-round choice). So you can believe what you want to believe, but I heard that from several different places.”

TexansFTW
02-27-2014, 02:19 PM
New York guy talking about a New York QB. No surprise there.

He's just trying to garner attention through shock value.

I know it seems like I'm madly over the top in love with quarterbacks, but for the record last year I said there were no QBs worthy of a 1st round draft (that included EJ Manuel, and I still stand by that).

Also if it weren't for Sanchez' pre-season injury I don't believe that Geno would have even seen the field his rookie year until statistical elimination from the playoffs.

Browns notebook: NFL Network analyst Daniel Jeremiah says team has eye on Fresno State quarterback Derek Carr (http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns-notebook-nfl-network-analyst-daniel-jeremiah-says-team-has-eye-on-fresno-state-quarterback-derek-carr-1.469536)

This article is absolutely hilarious. Does anyone besides me see Trent Richardson/Brandon Weeden all over again? Substitute Trent Richardson for Watkins or Matthews and you get Weeden = Carr and more misery for Browns' fans.

I never believed they were chasing Manziel and I said it was a smokescreen all along. High 5 to myself (although there is still 2 months for me to be wrong).

thunderkyss
02-27-2014, 02:25 PM
No one is saying that. Just cause you don't see a QB as first round talent doesn't mean it's correct or that others don't also, but choose to overdraft them based on need.


People were saying Gabbert was a second round talent regardless....


You thought that AJ McCarron was a 1st round pick just 3 weeks ago, so not being rude, but maybe you just don't have an eye for QBs, I respect your opinion on the other positions though.


Think. I think Aj McCArron is a first round talent. Never thought he would go in the first.


Most people believe that the top QBs are first round talent. They are NOT Andy Daltons being drafted in the first based on need. They are graded out significantly better overall. TB is graded out HIGHER than Cam Newton was.


I believe the "top 3" are first round talents. I believe 3 others are as well. All better than Andy Dalton.

Bridgewater may grade higher than Newton, but Newton had a mid 1st round grade.


TJ Yates is a loser bro and we've seen nothing from Brock O. Also, who is to say RusWil would be a Super Bowl champion on any other team? Personally, I don't know if he'd be a successful starter on many other teams in the NFL besides the Hawks.


The point about Tj & Brock is that Tennessee couldn't have done much worse had they drafted Yates instead of Locker. They may not draft a QB in 2014, but they probably should. Same as Jacksonville.

& my point is exactly that Russell Wilson most likely wouldn't have won a Super Bowl anywhere else. Had Tennessee drafted Watt/Fairley/Quinn/etc... they'd be closer to that team than they are now. Their next QB is going to struggle because they've yet to build a foundation.


EDIT: Came off a little rude, I apologize. Editing this so it's not so much attacking as much as disagreeing.

No need to apologize to me.

Playoffs
02-27-2014, 08:50 PM
Greg Gabriel ‏@greggabe
How excited are some clubs getting over Carr? Don't know that answer. They aren't saying

For what it's worth, that agent did not end up signing Smith. I don't know who is representing him

An agent asked me to do some tape work on Smith in late Dec. .... Was very impressed!

Wyo's Smith will be be doing a lot of workouts in March

Many NFL clubs are very quietly getting excited about Carr. Strong interviews at Indy

I wrote a very favorable report on Smith in the NFP in December 28th. Check it out: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFL-Prospect-Focus-Brett-Smith.html

Another QB that will start to warm up is Wyoming's Brett Smith

The QB that you will start hearing the most about leading up to Draft is Fresno's Derek Carr

Lucky
02-28-2014, 01:17 AM
People were saying Gabbert was a second round talent regardless....

Bridgewater may grade higher than Newton, but Newton had a mid 1st round grade.

I guess the "people" were wrong. Gabbert hasn't even shown 2nd round talent. And where are you getting that Newton carried a mid 1st grade? From whom?

The top QBs in this class have a) talent and b) production. Teddy Bridgewater has produced more on the collegiate level than Clowney or Robinson. So has Manziel. The notion that these guys are going to be drafted high just because of the premium position they play rings false. If anything, Clowney and Robinson will be drafted on spec.

This QB class may not be as good as 2012. But, it's a lot better than 2010. QB play (and QB coaching) has improved in college football over the past few years, and it has shown in the NFL. 8 good starting QBs have come out of the last 3 drafts. And that could rise if Manuel, Geno Smith, and Glennon take a step forward in 2014. I would be surprised if this class doesn't produce 3 to 4 solid NFL QBs. The trick is finding one of the 3 or 4.

thunderkyss
02-28-2014, 06:17 AM
I guess the "people" were wrong. Gabbert hasn't even shown 2nd round talent. And where are you getting that Newton carried a mid 1st grade? From whom?

http://walterfootball.com/draft2011bigboard.php

Walterfootball.com for one.


The top QBs in this class have a) talent and b) production.


So do the ones at the bottom of this class. Murray & McCarron specifically.


Teddy Bridgewater has produced more on the collegiate level than Clowney or Robinson. So has Manziel. The notion that these guys are going to be drafted high just because of the premium position they play rings false. If anything, Clowney and Robinson will be drafted on spec.


Aj McCarron has produced as much as Bridgewater, but he's on the bottom of this class because of speculation. Their production in their systems is only part of the equation. Their measurables & how they project in the NFL is just as big a part of their "draft stock"


This QB class may not be as good as 2012. But, it's a lot better than 2010. QB play (and QB coaching) has improved in college football over the past few years, and it has shown in the NFL. 8 good starting QBs have come out of the last 3 drafts. And that could rise if Manuel, Geno Smith, and Glennon take a step forward in 2014. I would be surprised if this class doesn't produce 3 to 4 solid NFL QBs. The trick is finding one of the 3 or 4.

I do not disagree. I just happen to believe Mettenberger, Fales, Murray, & McCarron have just a good a shot at being one of the 3 or 4 as Bridgewater, Manziel, & Bortles.... and a better shot than Derek Carr.

Marshall
02-28-2014, 06:32 AM
Browns notebook: NFL Network analyst Daniel Jeremiah says team has eye on Fresno State quarterback Derek Carr (http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns-notebook-nfl-network-analyst-daniel-jeremiah-says-team-has-eye-on-fresno-state-quarterback-derek-carr-1.469536)

Or is this new information the REAL smokescreen?

This time of year, anything is possible.

TexansFTW
02-28-2014, 07:45 AM
I guess the "people" were wrong. Gabbert hasn't even shown 2nd round talent. And where are you getting that Newton carried a mid 1st grade? From whom?

The top QBs in this class have a) talent and b) production. Teddy Bridgewater has produced more on the collegiate level than Clowney or Robinson. So has Manziel. The notion that these guys are going to be drafted high just because of the premium position they play rings false. If anything, Clowney and Robinson will be drafted on spec.

This QB class may not be as good as 2012. But, it's a lot better than 2010. QB play (and QB coaching) has improved in college football over the past few years, and it has shown in the NFL. 8 good starting QBs have come out of the last 3 drafts. And that could rise if Manuel, Geno Smith, and Glennon take a step forward in 2014. I would be surprised if this class doesn't produce 3 to 4 solid NFL QBs. The trick is finding one of the 3 or 4.

Every big board I've ever seen (not mock draft) from 2011 dated in 2011 before the draft had Cam Newton between 11-18, so I agree w/ TK there.

I agree with you on everything else.

Or is this new information the REAL smokescreen?

This time of year, anything is possible.

Hah, you may be right. Time will tell I suppose.

Playoffs
02-28-2014, 09:07 AM
Or is this new information the REAL smokescreen?

This time of year, anything is possible.

Very plausible. Remember baby Shanny is the OC there and he wants a very coachable player for that system, because it's a system built to minimize QB mistakes. Carr is a very respectful young man, a hard worker, and grew up talking football with his Dad and brother. After his press conference he stepped down and shook every reporter's hand who attended/asked questions. He's married with a young son who has had to have multiple surgeries to stay alive -- a grown up with some perspective. And he has the better overall arm of the group. At the Senior Bowl he took extra reps every day after practice. Impressive package.

I don't see a baby Shanny/Kubiak volunteering for a Manziel. They hate freelancing.

thunderkyss
02-28-2014, 09:43 AM
Every big board I've ever seen (not mock draft) from 2011 dated in 2011 before the draft had Cam Newton between 11-18, so I agree w/ TK there.


To be clear, I don't have a problem with where Cam Newton was drafted. There is definitely something special about him.

It would be nice if you could put a check mark next to every point on your "franchise QB prospect checklist", but those guys are extremely rare. Taking Cam first overall was a move from the gut & looks like it's going to work out for Carolina.

The only guy in this draft that gets my gut working like that is Manziel, but he doesn't have Newton's size or Vick's speed, so I'd have a hard time taking him in the top 5. But that's me & I understand everybody is different.

When I look at Bridgewater, I'm trying to see Rivers type success, I'm trying to see McNabb type success... but it's a stretch. I see Aaron Brooks type success. I see Matt Stafford type success.

& it's the same thing I see when I look at Murray, McCarron, Metenberger.

Bridgewater played in a pro system & made the calls at the line... So did Murray, so did McCarron, so did Metenberger. David Fales didn't but not because he couldn't. It's just not the program he came from. Bortles looks every bit as good as Bridgewater. As a coach, I'm asking myself can I win with this kid & unfortunately there are too many of them in this draft that I can answer yes to & Bridgewater has done nothing to separate himself from the pack enough for me to take him with the #1 overall.

Not so much that I pass on a freaky talent like Robinson, or Clowney. Or solid sure fire starters (maybe perennial all-pros) like Mack, or Barr. No way I would pass on Watkins to draft Bridgewater... not when Murray & 3 others I can win with are still on the board.

I don't think I'd pass on Taylor Lewan or Jake Matthews either.

At the same time, I understand that most do not look at these QBs the way I do. Most people don't have the 4 that I mentioned as close to Bridgewater as I do. & that's fine. I understand those guys wanting to use the 1st on Teddy. If I thought like they did, I would too.

Number19
02-28-2014, 10:47 AM
Browns notebook: NFL Network analyst Daniel Jeremiah says team has eye on Fresno State quarterback Derek Carr (http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns-notebook-nfl-network-analyst-daniel-jeremiah-says-team-has-eye-on-fresno-state-quarterback-derek-carr-1.469536)I've been hearing something along these lines for almost three weeks now. It's the reason I'm now thinking a trade won't materialize and why I'm re-evaluating my mock.

The Pencil Neck
02-28-2014, 11:47 AM
You could argue in the case of Wilson and Kaepernick, that Qb's weren't overdrafted but the wrong qb's were overdrafted. Ponder, Gabbert, Locker are cautionary tales, although I think injuries played a major part in it all, but eventhough those guys were reaches, it doesn't mean that the next set of guys will be reaches. The evaluation methods have to evolve just as fast as the game. The past failures of players don't mean the next set of players will fail. But if they evaluation methods don't change or adjust to take account of these failures, you could very well repeat those mistakes. Its the basis of "we learn more from our failures than our successes"

It may not even be a case of overdrafting or even overdrafting the wrong QBs.

It may be a case of failing to have the proper team/coaching setup to develop the QB properly. The wrong team and/or the wrong coaching staff could even turn Peyton Manning into Christian Ponder or Ryan Leaf.

OTOH, perhaps in some cases, the right coaching staff can make even a scrub look pretty good. Say what you want about Andy Reid, but his teams consistently make iffy QBs look damned good and then parlayed those QBs into trades and draft choices.

It may not be so much about how good the QB is that we draft but rather about how good OB is at getting the most out of him.

thunderkyss
02-28-2014, 11:56 AM
It may not be so much about how good the QB is that we draft but rather about how good OB is at getting the most out of him.

I agree, maybe banking on him being good at what he do more than I should.

The Pencil Neck
02-28-2014, 12:33 PM
I agree, maybe banking on him being good at what he do more than I should.

Kubiak, the QB guru, really made his reputation not on developing young QBs (Griese) but on getting the most out of older ones: Schaub, Plummer, Steve Young, even Carr (although by the end of the season, that experiment had obviously failed).

The problem is... we don't know if OB really can develop a QB. He had some success in College with McGloin and his latest Penn State Freshman but he can't take credit for Tom Brady. And he hasn't really developed a QB in the Pros.

We can only hope for a perfect storm here.

Playoffs
03-02-2014, 11:40 AM
Need to read to article to understand the methodology/assumptions of the stats/charts/rankings. Even more charts in the article.

2014 Quarterback Draft Class Passing Chart Spectacular (http://www.detroitlionsdraft.com/2014/03/2014-quarterback-passing-chart-spectacular/)
http://www.detroitlionsdraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ThrowLocation.png
...
http://www.detroitlionsdraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/BeyondLOS.png
...
http://www.detroitlionsdraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/0-91.png
...
http://www.detroitlionsdraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/10-19.png
...
http://www.detroitlionsdraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/20+.png
...
http://www.detroitlionsdraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/OutsideHashes.png

For those who'd rather clothe themselves in statistics versus actually watching game tape.

thunderkyss
03-02-2014, 12:04 PM
Need to read to article to understand the methodology/assumptions of the stats/charts/rankings. Even more charts in the article.

2014 Quarterback Draft Class Passing Chart Spectacular (http://www.detroitlionsdraft.com/2014/03/2014-quarterback-passing-chart-spectacular/)


For those who'd rather clothe themselves in statistics versus actually watching game tape.

Those numbers make Bortles look more legit than I thought.

It would be nice if something like this was done for previous draft classes as well.

thunderkyss
03-02-2014, 12:22 PM
Another thing. After correcting for level of competition, those numbers confirm what I've felt about McCarron compared to the top three, says I'm pretty much wrong about Murray compared to the top 3 & gives me pause to reconsider Mettenberger in relation to the top 3...... especially considering he was new to the system he played in, compared to Bridgewater & McCarron who had played in their systems at least 3 years.

LikeMike
03-02-2014, 12:37 PM
Those numbers make Bortles look more legit than I thought.

It would be nice if something like this was done for previous draft classes as well.

Well those numbers basically say, that Bridgewater is the most accurate passer and that he is scary good with passes that travel 0-10 yards in the air and a signifcantly worse for passes that travel longer in the air. So deep ball accuracy is a real issue with him, although he is not far off the other big guys. But most passes in the NFL and the bread and butter passes travel 0-15 yards through the air and Bridgewater is clearly the best passer at this range.

And I agree with you, Bortles look better here than I thought. And he is clutch and pretty good against the blitz. Those are all things I value very highly.

Playoffs
03-02-2014, 02:05 PM
Greg Cosell: This is not a great quarterback class (http://www.bucsnation.com/2014/3/2/5462642/greg-cosell-this-is-not-a-great-quarterback-class)
"Overall it's not a great [quarterback] class at all," Cosell said.

"I think the reason it's being viewed as such, as a better class than it is, is because so many teams in the top, I believe, eight picks - I think there's five teams you can easily make an argument need a quarterback. It's being viewed as better than it is, but if you just look at the players - and again, I just came back from the combine and that was pretty much the consensus that well, this is not a great quarterback class by any means."

Lucky
03-02-2014, 03:19 PM
"Overall it's not a great [quarterback] class at all," Cosell said.
Greg, how many "great" QB classes are there? 2012 is looking pretty great. 2004 has 2 or 3 HOFers. 1983 has 3 bona fide HOFs. So draft a QB once every 10 or 20 years, and hope you get one of the great ones?

Overall, 2008 was thought to be a great DL class. 5 of the top 8 picks were d-lineman. 4 of them turned out to be busts. No one knows with certainty what will be a great class before the draft.

And the Texans don't need this to be a great QB class. They just need 1 QB. They have their choice. It's very rare that there's not at least one good QB coming out of a draft. All the Texans have to do is find him. How hard is that? :)

Number19
03-02-2014, 03:34 PM
What immediately jumped out at me was Keith Wenning from Ball State. His overall rank was 15th out of the 18. But if you take his individual rankings in each of the ten categories, he comes in right in the middle at 9. He didn't throw deep often, only 13% of the time, but when he did, he had a 48% completion rating. Bortles had 54%, Bridgewater 51% and Manziel 47%.

His size is not bad at 6'-3", 218 lbs and he seems to have had a pretty good week of practices at the Shrine Game for the west squad.

Someone to look at in the 7th round.

(edit) In the critical 10-19 yd range, he had a decent 64% completion number, which was better than Bridgewater's 62%.

(edit2) I just found (from another thread) that his ball velocity is 56, same as Bortles', so he has decent arm strength.

infantrycak
03-02-2014, 03:45 PM
It's very rare that there's not at least one good QB coming out of a draft. All the Texans have to do is find him. How hard is that? :)

2002 - 0 current starters but top 5 QBs had 300 starts.
2003 - 1 current +1 former who went to SB
2004 - 3 current starters, would be 4 with Schaub.
2005 - 3 current starters
2006 - 1 current starter
2007 - 0
2008 - 2 current starters, assuming Henne out.
2009 - 1 current starter
2010 - 1 current starter
2011 - 3 current starters, not counting 3 incumbents who may be out

True zeros are rare. So are classes pushing out 5+ long term solid starters.

thunderkyss
03-02-2014, 03:49 PM
Greg, how many "great" QB classes are there? 2012 is looking pretty great. 2004 has 2 or 3 HOFers. 1983 has 3 bona fide HOFs. So draft a QB once every 10 or 20 years, and hope you get one of the great ones?


To say this isn't a great QB class isn't to say that you shouldn't draft a QB in the first round. IMO, he's just saying there aren't any "great" prospects. Not only is there no Andrew Luck, there's no RG3, no Phillip Rivers. But there are a lot of good prospects; Stafford, Ryan, Bradford, Cutler.

We'll probably get three bonafide starters out of this class, maybe four. You've seen my list of 6. I think these guys are most likely to have successful careers as starters.


McCarron
Bridgewater
Murray
Bortles
Manziel
Fales


& there are still guys like Connor Shaw, Jimmy Garopolo, & Zach Mettenberger who may very well turn into a quality starter. There's just no way anyone can point to any one of the guys in this draft & say, "He's going to be a quality NFL starter." Not that I can see anyway.

Whoever we pick (if he's one from this list) will have a much better opportunity to succeed if we fix our OL. I'm sure no one denies that, but the question is how do we do that. Some of us point to our 2010, 2011 line & say "we can do it with an Eric Winston type talent" or with Winston himself. But that OL was great at RB, not very good at protecting the QB & not the OL I'd want to start a rookie behind. That OL was great as long as Schaub got into a rhythm & got the ball out on time. I don't see even the great Teddy Bridgewater operating 3 & 5 step drops as well as Matt Schaub was during that time period.

I'd like to get an elite OT to add to our line, if he plays the left side & pushes Duane to the right, or if he's not ready to take the left & has to play the right, we're better off than we were last year. I like Robinson, Matthews & Lewan, if we got one of those three, Case Keenum would look like a starting QB... or at least there's a good chance he will.

I'd be happy (& excited about our future) if we managed to get Bridgewater then Kouandjio or Moses in the second. But there's a good chance, better than good that neither guy will be there at 2-1. But three of my six QBs will & their chance of being a prolific NFL starter will be better than whoever Cleveland, Jacksonville, or Minnesota takes. If we get Robinson, Matthews, or Lewan in the first.

All my opinion of course.

DX-TEX
03-02-2014, 03:54 PM
I read the article and saw those charts in the link. Where would Mettenbergers stock be if he had not hurt his knee?

Number19
03-02-2014, 03:55 PM
You talk about great QB's and the thought crossed my mind a while back - the Colts have had the fortune of having Johnny U, Peyton Manning and now Andrew Luck.

thunderkyss
03-02-2014, 04:15 PM
I read the article and saw those charts in the link. Where would Mettenbergers stock be if he had not hurt his knee?

He wasn't considered a mobile QB to begin with, so I don't take it into consideration much at all. I still think he has a good chance at success, just not better than good like the guys in my list of six. The others show either better accuracy or a much better understanding of ball placement to me.

I also argue he had the best tandem of WRs & a better than average OL to work with.

thunderkyss
03-02-2014, 04:17 PM
You talk about great QB's and the thought crossed my mind a while back - the Colts have had the fortune of having Johnny U, Peyton Manning and now Andrew Luck.

The Packers had Starr, Favre, & Rodgers.

SF had Montana, Young, now Kaepernick.

Seattle has Russell Wilson.

leebigeztx
03-02-2014, 04:20 PM
He wasn't considered a mobile QB to begin with, so I don't take it into consideration much at all. I still think he has a good chance at success, just not better than good like the guys in my list of six. The others show either better accuracy or a much better understanding of ball placement to me.

I also argue he had the best tandem of WRs & a better than average OL to work with.

I don't see how people can watch mettenburger tape and like what they see. That dude had nfl talent all around him,yet in sec play,he had 13tds and 8 picks. His wrs made lynn swann type catches even on the simplest route. People are enamored with his size and arm,but with all that he was avg at best. Tyler Bray with the same like talent was undrafted.

Number19
03-02-2014, 04:29 PM
...All my opinion of course.I hear you. Of course I'm talking defense with our draft, but having the same concerns as you about the OL, where I'm looking is Ju'Wuan James in the 3rd. My understanding is that he has a first round grade on pass protection, but is deficient in run blocking. He lacks strength; and this was shown in his reps at the combine. But he's 6'-6", 311 lbs with 35" arms and 9 7/8" hands. I've targeted him for his ability to pass protect, figuring that his strength can be worked on, given a year or two in the weight room. At 3-65 he may be over drafted by half a round, but I'm not sure he will be there at 4-97, given the value placed on protecting the QB.

DX-TEX
03-02-2014, 05:03 PM
He wasn't considered a mobile QB to begin with, so I don't take it into consideration much at all. I still think he has a good chance at success, just not better than good like the guys in my list of six. The others show either better accuracy or a much better understanding of ball placement to me.

I also argue he had the best tandem of WRs & a better than average OL to work with.

Isnt that what most NFL pundits say though? Every QB mentioned this year has the caveat added "If he is in the right system built around him".

Uncle Rico
03-02-2014, 05:13 PM
http://www.detroitlionsdraft.com/2014/03/2014-quarterback-passing-chart-spectacular/

Playoffs
03-02-2014, 05:17 PM
Daniel Jeremiah ‏@MoveTheSticks
Finished watching a cutup of Bridgewater's TD/INT for 2013. Inside the pocket 26 TD/4 INT. Outside the pocket 5 TD/0 INT.

Watched a cutup of Bortles TDs/INT's for 2013… Inside the pocket 18 TD//8 INT. Outside the pocket 7 TD/1 INT.

Finished watching a cutup of Manziel's TD's/INT's (2013 season)….Inside the pocket-26 TD/11 INT. Outside the pocket-11 TD/2 INT

DX-TEX
03-02-2014, 05:29 PM
Daniel Jeremiah ‏@MoveTheSticks

And the wheel comes full circle and we are back at one.:vincepalm:

Number19
03-02-2014, 05:34 PM
Bridgewater - won't make the mistake that costs you the game. With a strong OL, a good running game and a stout defense, is your steady game manager.

Manziel - just keeps gunning, has the highest come back capability. With lesser overall team talent, has the better chance of leading the team to a winning season.

thunderkyss
03-02-2014, 05:49 PM
Bridgewater - won't make the mistake that costs you the game. With a strong OL, a good running game and a stout defense, is your steady game manager.


As long as he's the best athlete on the field. How many times have we seen him play when that was not the case?

kiwitexansfan
03-02-2014, 05:52 PM
Bridgewater - won't make the mistake that costs you the game. With a strong OL, a good running game and a stout defense, is your steady game manager.

Manziel - just keeps gunning, has the highest come back capability. With lesser overall team talent, has the better chance of leading the team to a winning season.

Bridgewater - Makes quick decisions to keep the chains moving. Won't put a team in a hole but keep a lower talent offense effective without pressuring a lesser defense with bad field postion.

Manziel - Gunsligner who will dig holes so deep that even his prodigious playmaking can't dig himsefl out of.

See you can paint it both ways.

kiwitexansfan
03-02-2014, 05:53 PM
As long as he's the best athlete on the field. How many times have we seen him play when that was not the case?

Bridgewater is the best athlete on the field?

Don't think his athleticism is the key to his success.

The Pencil Neck
03-02-2014, 05:57 PM
As long as he's the best athlete on the field. How many times have we seen him play when that was not the case?

Did you cut the wrong part? You meant this to refer to Manziel instead of Bridgewater, right?

infantrycak
03-02-2014, 06:13 PM
As long as he's the best athlete on the field. How many times have we seen him play when that was not the case?

Did you cut the wrong part? You meant this to refer to Manziel instead of Bridgewater, right?

Thanks TPN, that's what I was about to ask.

Best athlete on the field and game manager aren't ordinarily associated.

Playoffs
03-02-2014, 06:18 PM
Best athlete on the field and game manager aren't ordinarily associated.
Yeah, neither are QBs and best athlete on the field. http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e316/Soizic22/a%20smilie/laugh-1.gif

kiwitexansfan
03-02-2014, 06:46 PM
Thanks TPN, that's what I was about to ask.

Best athlete on the field and game manager aren't ordinarily associated.

Even so Evans >>>> Manziel as an athlete right?

thunderkyss
03-02-2014, 06:57 PM
Did you cut the wrong part? You meant this to refer to Manziel instead of Bridgewater, right?

How about best talent. How many guys did Bridgewater play with, or against that will be drafted, much less be a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round pick?

It's arguable if Manziel was the best talent on his team.

LikeMike
03-02-2014, 07:20 PM
How about best talent. How many guys did Bridgewater play with, or against that will be drafted, much less be a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round pick?

It's arguable if Manziel was the best talent on his team.

Being the best talent on your team isn`t a negative. You probably can argue it is a prerequisite for a number 1 pick. Same goes for being better than the competition. His team didn`t help his numbers as for example Mettenbergers team helped his.

It is true that the competition wasn`t always up to par. But Bridgewater did great against any opponent with his best games coming against the best competition. In my oppinion this argument would only be a concern, if he`d struggled against better competition. He did not, he excelled.

The Pencil Neck
03-02-2014, 07:57 PM
How about best talent. How many guys did Bridgewater play with, or against that will be drafted, much less be a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round pick?

It's arguable if Manziel was the best talent on his team.

If I'm playing with B-string guys against B-string guys isn't that similar to playing with A-string guys against A-string guys? If you've got a guy at WR who's going to go in the first couple of rounds, you've got to expect him to be schooling his competition and if you're the QB throwing to him, you've got to expect a bigger window.

But if your receivers aren't very good, then you're going to have to work harder to get them open.

I would argue that Manziel playing with such a talented cast made him look better than he was whereas Bridgewater and Bortles playing with those guys made those other guys look better. It's like when Cutler was in college at Vandy and Leinart was in college at USC and VY was at Texas. Cutler was having to make harder throws than Leinart was and that made Cutler look not as good and Leinart/Young look better.

ObsiWan
03-02-2014, 08:00 PM
2002 - 0 current starters but top 5 QBs had 300 starts.
2003 - 1 current +1 former who went to SB
2004 - 3 current starters, would be 4 with Schaub.
2005 - 3 current starters
2006 - 1 current starter
2007 - 0
2008 - 2 current starters, assuming Henne out.
2009 - 1 current starter
2010 - 1 current starter
2011 - 3 current starters, not counting 3 incumbents who may be out

True zeros are rare. So are classes pushing out 5+ long term solid starters.
Is there a reason you didn't include 2012?
It happens to be one of those years that produced five solid starters...
- Luck
- Griffin
-Tannehill
- Weeden
- Wilson
- Foles*
* only a starter for one year; all the other guys have been two-year starters.
link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/draft/QB-1980-now.htm)
Cak, if you're right, and I believe you have a point, that years producing five or more solid starters are rare, then 2012 was that last "special" year and maybe we missed the window.
As someone said, we picked the wrong year to suck.

infantrycak
03-02-2014, 08:34 PM
Is there a reason you didn't include 2012?

Wanted a too soon cutoff and this one coincided with a decade of drafts.

If you had looked at 2002 in 2004 there would have been 4 current starters which I think illustrates the too soon point as does 2011 which is showing them dropping fast as judgments are made.

thunderkyss
03-02-2014, 08:41 PM
If I'm playing with B-string guys against B-string guys isn't that similar to playing with A-string guys against A-string guys? If you've got a guy at WR who's going to go in the first couple of rounds, you've got to expect him to be schooling his competition and if you're the QB throwing to him, you've got to expect a bigger window.

But if your receivers aren't very good, then you're going to have to work harder to get them open.

I would argue that Manziel playing with such a talented cast made him look better than he was whereas Bridgewater and Bortles playing with those guys made those other guys look better. It's like when Cutler was in college at Vandy and Leinart was in college at USC and VY was at Texas. Cutler was having to make harder throws than Leinart was and that made Cutler look not as good and Leinart/Young look better.

So when the back-up QB is kicking butt with the 2s & 3s in the preseason against the 2s & 3s in the preseason, he take over as starter, even though the starter played relatively as well against the 1s with the 1s?

Playing for a major program in a major conference has always been part of the resume of an elite prospect. It's always been favorable to a guy who played extremely well in a lesser conference. There is a reason for that.

Right now, we're looking at Teddy Bridgewater for the #1 overall pick. I understand the strength of schedule thing will be down played.

matts290
03-02-2014, 08:50 PM
Playing for a major program in a major conference has always been part of the resume of an elite prospect.


No it hasn't.

The Pencil Neck
03-02-2014, 10:01 PM
So when the back-up QB is kicking butt with the 2s & 3s in the preseason against the 2s & 3s in the preseason, he take over as starter, even though the starter played relatively as well against the 1s with the 1s?


He's got a better chance of it than if he's getting his ass kicked.


Playing for a major program in a major conference has always been part of the resume of an elite prospect. It's always been favorable to a guy who played extremely well in a lesser conference. There is a reason for that.

Right now, we're looking at Teddy Bridgewater for the #1 overall pick. I understand the strength of schedule thing will be down played.

Uh.

I don't think so.

Historically, the best QBs come from smaller schools or if they come from one of the big conferences, they're usually not from one of the stronger schools in the conference. It's rare to see good NFL QBs come out of schools like Texas, Alabama, LSU, or USC. It's rare to see good NFL QBs seriously contending for national titles in college.

At least, that's the way I've always seen it.

ObsiWan
03-02-2014, 10:22 PM
He's got a better chance of it than if he's getting his ass kicked.



Uh.

I don't think so.

Historically, the best QBs come from smaller schools or if they come from one of the big conferences, they're usually not from one of the stronger schools in the conference. It's rare to see good NFL QBs come out of schools like Texas, Alabama, LSU, or USC. It's rare to see good NFL QBs seriously contending for national titles in college.

At least, that's the way I've always seen it.

meh... they come from everywhere.
check this list (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/draft/QB-1980-now.htm) from 1980 to the present.

....of course it depends on what you call a "major program".
Matt Ryan from Boston College, Joe Flacco from Delaware, Kaepernick from Nevada-Reno... I wouldn't call those "major programs"

Russell Wilson from Wisc., Cam Newton from Auburn, RGIII from Baylor... those are major programs but not really known to be QB factories.

They come from everywhere.

Playoffs
03-03-2014, 10:20 AM
tweets read bottom(oldest)-to-top
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer
6) Mettenberger is going to entice teams. Absent the ACL injury, I know at least one club who'd have had him No. 1 among the QBs.

5) The biggest knock on McCarron -- You don't see him enough where everything is breaking down around him. And the OU game raised concerns.

4) I think personnel folks see Bridgewater like this -- Very good in a lot of areas, but not special. And they worry about his frame.

3) Most common comparison I heard for Blake Bortles was Andrew Luck, though Bortles is not quite the athlete, and not nearly as developed.

2) I was surprised to hear one veteran personnel man I respect a bunch say Derek Carr was the best QB in the group.

1) Found a little more doubt than I thought I would on Manziel. Several folks mentioned Kyle Shanahan as someone who could make it work.

Did some kicking around on the draft QBs over the weekend, and the opinions vary wildly from evaluator-to-evaluator in ranking this class.

Playoffs
03-04-2014, 02:49 PM
tweets read bottom(oldest)-to-top

Garoppolo Pro Day...

Tony Pauline ‏@TonyPauline
Not sure it its out there but I'm told it was HC Bill O'Brien & QB coach George Godsey who privately worked out Jimmy Garoppolo this morning

Eric Edholm ‏@Eric_Edholm
First poor throw of the day on a deep out by Jimmy Garoppolo. Underthrew it and was early.

No, but I didn't embarrass myself. Looked the ball right into my thigh. Textbook. RT @maggiehendricks: @Eric_Edholm Video?

And this reporter almost took one off the face. #prodayhazards

Every one of Garoppolo's short and intermediate passes were on target. Now onto the deeper throws.

One last Harbaugh nugget on Garoppolo: He watched several of his games over 4 years. Also: "I enjoyed following him through [this] year."

So they did, and Garoppolo and Harbaugh ducked on to an off-limits-to-others part of the field and threw and talked for 45 minutes.

Jimmy Garoppolo on how Jim Harbaugh mini-workout came together: "He saw me, introduced himself and said, 'Wanna throw a little?'"

Jimmy Garoppolo's agent is Don Yee ... who also represents a guy named Tom Brady.

Garoppolo on QB idols: “Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. If you could mold those two together, you might have the perfect quarterback.”

And Jim Harbaugh, who worked him out prior. MT @AdamSchefter: Texans HC Bill O'Brien at Northwestern for EIU QB Jimmy Garoppolo's Pro Day.

Northwestern HC Pat Fitzgerald (@coachfitz51) had a great line about NFL pro day drills: "Some kids are better at drills than at football."

Garoppolo will throw "short script" of predetermined passes at pro day but will open it up to requests if scouts want to see certain throws.

Jaguars, who spent week coaching him at Senior Bowl. At least didn't see them. RT @mattatisu: @Eric_Edholm Which team wasn't there?

Jim Harbaugh told me on Jimmy Garoppolo: "Quick release, yes, but sometimes too quick. You want to see him go through whole motion." #49ers

#49ers' Harbaugh and #Texans' Bill O'Brien were only HC's I spotted. Harbaugh talked to me about JG, clearly VERY aware of his ability.

31 of 32 NFL teams spotted at Northwestern Pro Day to watch EIU's Jimmy Garoppolo. JG and Jim Harbaugh warmed up for 45 minutes together.

steelbtexan
03-04-2014, 03:39 PM
No one is saying that. Just cause you don't see a QB as first round talent doesn't mean it's correct or that others don't also, but choose to overdraft them based on need.

You thought that AJ McCarron was a 1st round pick just 3 weeks ago, so not being rude, but maybe you just don't have an eye for QBs, I respect your opinion on the other positions though.

Most people believe that the top QBs are first round talent. They are NOT Andy Daltons being drafted in the first based on need. They are graded out significantly better overall. TB is graded out HIGHER than Cam Newton was.

TJ Yates is a loser bro and we've seen nothing from Brock O. Also, who is to say RusWil would be a Super Bowl champion on any other team? Personally, I don't know if he'd be a successful starter on many other teams in the NFL besides the Hawks.

EDIT: Came off a little rude, I apologize. Editing this so it's not so much attacking as much as disagreeing.

Who s doing the grading?

The same guys that drafted Locker/Ponder/Gabbert as 1st rders? Yeah I trust those guys about as much as I trust Boardroom BoBBy's/Slick Rick's val of Manziel. Hopefully BO'B makes the call on his QB. I happen to believe TB is another version of Dalton. Not that my opinion matters. But I've got just about as good a track record as some of these scouts and don't have near the research data they do.

I judge by what I see, not what I read. The QB's I like most in this draft are.

1. Garapollo
2. Bortles
3. Brett Smith
4. Aaron Murray
5. TB
6. McCarron
7. JM
9. Mett
10. Savage

I would like to see your top 10 of QB's that you've seen play more than 4 games. I've seen all of these guys 4 or more times. Excluding Garapollo, who after the East/west game and Sr. Bowl I've watched his footwork/release/decision making/arm strength on film and honestly think he is going to turn out to be the best of the bunch. He reminds me of a less wild Romo.

thunderkyss
03-04-2014, 04:21 PM
Excluding Garapollo, who after the East/west game and Sr. Bowl I've watched his footwork/release/decision making/arm strength on film and honestly think he is going to turn out to be the best of the bunch. He reminds me of a less wild Romo.

The college senior had a record-shattering season in 2013 — he broke all of Tony Romo’s career school records — and won the Walter Payton Award after throwing for 5,050 yards and 53 touchdowns.

Garoppolo has been overshadowed by the likes of Teddy Bridgewater, Blake Bortles, Derek Carr and Johnny Manziel, but if the Texans pass on a quarterback with their first overall pick, they could end up taking him at the top of the second round. If Garoppolo goes to the 49ers at the end of the first round, he would play a backup role to quarterback Colin Kaepernick.Si.com (http://nfl.si.com/2014/03/04/2014-nfl-draft-rumors-jimmy-garoppolo-49ers-texans-workout/)

Playoffs
03-05-2014, 11:47 AM
Report links Cincinnati Bengals to Georgia QB Aaron Murray (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000330911/article/report-links-bengals-to-georgia-qb-aaron-murray)
Former Georgia quarterback Aaron Murray was among the players interviewed by the Cincinnati Bengals at the NFL Scouting Combine last month, and the club is believed to have interest in the Bulldogs' record-breaking quarterback.

A number of signs point to Murray making sense for the Bengals. One would be the club's apparent affinity for...

WolverineFan
03-05-2014, 12:32 PM
Report links Cincinnati Bengals to Georgia QB Aaron Murray (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000330911/article/report-links-bengals-to-georgia-qb-aaron-murray)

Would be a great move for them. They are a pretty loaded team so they can afford to use a 3rd or 4th on Murray and basically redshirt him for a year. Then, next year when Dalton's contract is up, you have some leverage and you can turn to Murray instead of over-paying Dalton.

thunderkyss
03-07-2014, 05:24 PM
NFL.com QB Draft Grades (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/tracker/by-name#dt-tabs:dt-by-position):


6.4 Blake Bortles
6.3 Teddy Bridgewater
5.9 Johnny Manziel
5.8 Derek Carr
5.6 Aj McCarron
5.4 Tajh Boyd
5.4 Logan Thomas
5.3 Jimmy Garoppolo
5.2 Stephen Morris
5.2 Zach Mettenberger
5.2 Jeff Matthews
5.2 Aaron Murray
5.1 Tom Savage
5.1 David Fales

Playoffs
03-08-2014, 11:51 AM
Interesting analysis on what might take a QB out of the running for your team.

QB Jimmy Garoppolo: Knockout (http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2014/03/05/qb-jimmy-garoppolo-knockout/)
...While easier for scouts to identify details like height, weight, arm strength, base accuracy, and mobility, it’s more difficult to quantify – or even qualify – that amount of sophistication that a player has when it comes to integrating these details on the field.

Reading defenses, pocket presence, touch, and placement are examples of this kind of sophistication. They aren't easy to grade because they involve multiple variables that differ on every play.

Even so, if a team is honest and vigilant about identifying what it can – and should – spend time coaching, then it will do a better job scouting prospects. Having this kind of accurate self-assessment of its skills and priorities should help them elevate or reject prospects.

They should focus more on “knockout factors” in their scouting. Even if it’s not formalized in a scouting report or on paper, the better teams have a core identity that each player must match or he’s not on its draft board. The Ravens have it. I believe the Steelers have it. I suspect to some degree the Patriots and Seahawks do, too.

I’ve always considered having “knockout factors” in my scouting reports. Now that I’m almost 10 years into the RSP, I’m closer to incorporating them into my process. The reason I've waited is that a knockout factor has to be obvious.

I wouldn't hire a musician with stage fright for a live performance. I don’t care how great his or her tone, range, rhythm, and phrasing is. I don’t care if he or she won a Grammy and an Oscar. If that person takes the stage, forgets the words, and begins hyperventilating, my decision was a huge mistake...

thunderkyss
03-08-2014, 01:10 PM
Interesting analysis on what might take a QB out of the running for your team.

QB Jimmy Garoppolo: Knockout (http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2014/03/05/qb-jimmy-garoppolo-knockout/)

I'm not going to lie. I didn't know who Jimmy Garoppolo was until his name popped up a month or so ago. I looked into him & came away impressed. He also had the keys to the Cadillac, free to call the game from the LOS. He's got good size, a good arm, 3.5 year starter, several accolades, good stats... & the game wasn't too big for him, albiet at a much lower level of competition.

I don't know how much stock I want to put into this evaluation. I'd like to see him do a similar exercise for all the QB prospects. Actively looking for their weaknesses & bring attention to those. But... like everyone else, I'm sure he has his favorites & there will be three or four guys with no weaknesses, most likely 1 in particular.

I think the goal is to find a prospect that a particular team believes they can win with. Every team is going to have their own "prototype" From what I've seen of Garoppolo, I wouldn't be surprised if some team believes they can win with him.

I can't see anyone falling in love with him so much that they pick him over several dozen other prospects though.

beerlover
03-08-2014, 01:20 PM
I'm not going to lie. I didn't know who Jimmy Garoppolo was until his name popped up a month or so ago. I looked into him & came away impressed. He also had the keys to the Cadillac, free to call the game from the LOS. He's got good size, a good arm, 3.5 year starter, several accolades, good stats... & the game wasn't too big for him, albiet at a much lower level of competition.

I don't know how much stock I want to put into this evaluation. I'd like to see him do a similar exercise for all the QB prospects. Actively looking for their weaknesses & bring attention to those. But... like everyone else, I'm sure he has his favorites & there will be three or four guys with no weaknesses, most likely 1 in particular.

I think the goal is to find a prospect that a particular team believes they can win with. Every team is going to have their own "prototype" From what I've seen of Garoppolo, I wouldn't be surprised if some team believes they can win with him.

I can't see anyone falling in love with him so much that they pick him over several dozen other prospects though.

Wife asked who he was, I couldn't tell her quick enough before she said, "he's cute" so in regards to your last statement there may be some, lol :thisbig:

Playoffs
03-19-2014, 03:34 PM
Perspective...

Greg Gabriel ‏@greggabe
@LRiddickESPN - I hear you. But we all see these orgasms going on by analysts after these so called strong workouts

Louis Riddick ‏@LRiddickESPN
@greggabe If we have not learned the importance of keeping "workouts" in proper context by now, we never will.

Also the coaches find out how well the player responds to their coaching

On a private workout he has no idea what he is going to be asked to do. This is more telling on his ability to react

Most QB's have practiced their pro day script 5-7 times. It becomes second nature. Not a true indicator

Remember JaMarcus Russell and Blaine Gabbert had outstanding pro days. I could list plenty more

QB pro days are rehearsed scripted sessions. They are suppose to make the player look great. When a QB bombs (Teddy) watch out!

Playoffs
03-22-2014, 10:30 AM
Scout vs. Scout: Johnny Manziel or Teddy Bridgewater? (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/0ap2000000335387/Scout-vs-Scout-Manziel-or-Bridgewater)

Playoffs
03-24-2014, 09:28 PM
CollegeFootball 24/7 ‏@NFL_CFB
Solomon Wilcots: No QB will be taken in top five of #NFLDraft. http://on.nfl.com/Q9AF6r

kiwitexansfan
03-24-2014, 10:24 PM
I'm starting to get a Logan Thomas vibe.

He can sit and learn for a year, then BOOM!

The Pencil Neck
03-24-2014, 10:39 PM
CollegeFootball 24/7 ‏@NFL_CFB

That was an audacious statement! I'd love it if it were true.

aussie_texan
03-25-2014, 04:15 AM
I'm starting to get a Logan Thomas vibe.

He can sit and learn for a year, then BOOM!

id rather have tom savage than thomas

kingtexan
03-25-2014, 06:25 PM
Looks like Carr looked decent at his pro-day.

Playoffs
03-26-2014, 06:38 PM
Louis Riddick ‏@LRiddickESPN
Where/by who this class of 2014 QBs are drafted and coached will largely determine their relative success or failure more than anything else.

Playoffs
03-26-2014, 10:35 PM
Louis Riddick ‏@LRiddickESPN
Significant learning curve.

Much more to go on Garoppolo, but from what I see and have been told, he is going to have to be taught from scratch (footwork).

thunderkyss
03-27-2014, 05:18 AM
Louis Riddick ‏@LRiddickESPN
Where/by who this class of 2014 QBs are drafted and coached will largely determine their relative success or failure more than anything else.

Looks like we've come full circle.

About this time last year we were saying how this would be a better year to draft a QB, around 26 or so... that there were no sure thing, franchise QBs, but a lot of solid prospects. & here we are.

Several of the teams picking in the top 10 have a need at QB & the closer we got to finalizing the draft order, several QBs started creeping up the boards. One in particular "came out of nowhere"

Now that those top 10 teams have signaled QB may not be taken with a top 5 pick, these QBs start creeping back down to their natural order.

Trail.Blazr
03-27-2014, 07:23 AM
Looks like we've come full circle.

About this time last year we were saying how this would be a better year to draft a QB, around 26 or so... that there were no sure thing, franchise QBs, but a lot of solid prospects. & here we are.

Several of the teams picking in the top 10 have a need at QB & the closer we got to finalizing the draft order, several QBs started creeping up the boards. One in particular "came out of nowhere"

Now that those top 10 teams have signaled QB may not be taken with a top 5 pick, these QBs start creeping back down to their natural order.

QB in this year's draft seems no better to me than last years. Going to be a crap shoot, with a number of options but no glaring THIS GUY pick to be made. Just for fun, I've made a partial list of QB's drafted(and rd drafted) in this millineum. They are listed here either because they were a 1st rd pick or have made some level of success. Or have some relavance to this texan fan.

EJ Manuel 1
Andrew Luck* 1
Robbert Griffin 1
Ryan Tannehil 1
Brandon Weeden 1
Russell Wilson 3
Nick Foles 3
Cam Newton* 1
Jake Locker 1
Blain Gabbert 1
Christian Ponder 1
Andy Dalton 2
Colin Kaepernick 2
Sam Bradford* 1
Tim Tebow 1
Matthew Stafford* 1
Mark Sanchez 1
Matt Ryan 1
Joe Flacco 1
Jamarcus Russell* 1
Brady Quinn 1
Vince Young 1
Matt Leinart 1
Jay Cutler 1
Alex Smith* 1
Aaron Rogers 1
Jason Campbell 1
Matt Cassel 7
Ryan Fitzpatrick 7
Eli Manning* 1
Philip Rivers 1
Ben Roethlesberger 1
JP Losman 1
Matt Schaub 3
Carson Palmer* 1
David $%^&* 1
Michael Vick* 1

Looking at the overall #1's9tagged with asterisk), Other than Luck, Newton, Stafford, Eli or Vick, in hindsight, I don't see anyone considered worth debating as 1st overall pick talent. And of those 4, it's probable I wouldn't want but 1 of them as a rookie selection in this year's draft. Who would you put on your list to take? Feel good about this year's draft class making that same list?

Now, browse that above list again, and tell me which of those you would be happy to draft as a rookie with the first over all pick if you could? I see 4, maybe 5 that I would wish similar luck in terms of risk/reward of taking that I would hope we could comparitively achieve with this year's draft class. Understanding that this year's class has yet to suit up, it's speculation, but I'm just not sold on any of them at #1. I feel that IF Houston isn't leaning towards Clowney, then that puts QB at the premium of needs, which 1st pick overall has less value than if a clear front runner was on the board. This years Gem, I feel will be realized, similar to Roethlesberger... We'll still need to pick a QB first round, but I'd rather trade down and take my chances. Now, how far a trade down goes has obvious implications of the scope of available players to pick from, so it's not without risk, but if the trade is there to go down a few spots and gain an additional draft pick(s), I'm thinking this is the year to do it.

Corrosion
03-27-2014, 08:05 AM
Looks like we've come full circle.

About this time last year we were saying how this would be a better year to draft a QB, around 26 or so... that there were no sure thing, franchise QBs, but a lot of solid prospects. & here we are.

Several of the teams picking in the top 10 have a need at QB & the closer we got to finalizing the draft order, several QBs started creeping up the boards. One in particular "came out of nowhere"

Now that those top 10 teams have signaled QB may not be taken with a top 5 pick, these QBs start creeping back down to their natural order.

Some of us have been saying this all along , thing is that there are so damn many teams with a dire need at the position. That puts a real premium on the talent , pushing guys up the overall board despite "overall talent."

steelbtexan
03-27-2014, 08:10 AM
Some of us have been saying this all along , thing is that there are so damn many teams with a dire need at the position. That puts a real premium on the talent , pushing guys up the overall board despite "overall talent."

Looks like the Texans org is going to have to trade back into the bottom of the 1st rd to get there QB if they go Clowney/Robinson at 1-1.

infantrycak
03-27-2014, 10:48 AM
Looking at the overall #1's9tagged with asterisk), Other than Luck, Newton, Stafford, Eli or Vick, in hindsight, I don't see anyone considered worth debating as 1st overall pick talent. And of those 4, it's probable I wouldn't want but 1 of them as a rookie selection in this year's draft. Who would you put on your list to take? Feel good about this year's draft class making that same list?

Wow, there was a lot of discussion of #1 overall for several of the guys you have listed but not tagged.

I would happily take several of them #1 overall if available this year. Seems like you are applying some kind of unrealistic surefire hall of famer standard which if applied equally to other positions would result in almost nobody being worthy of #1 overall.

bah007
03-27-2014, 12:00 PM
Wow, there was a lot of discussion of #1 overall for several of the guys you have listed but not tagged.

I would happily take several of them #1 overall if available this year. Seems like you are applying some kind of unrealistic surefire hall of famer standard which if applied equally to other positions would result in almost nobody being worthy of #1 overall.

Not directly related to this discussion, but the idea that a guy can be worth the #2 or #3 pick but not the #1 pick is asinine, IMO.

ArlingtonTexan
04-03-2014, 07:52 AM
http://www.nj.com/times-sports/index.ssf/2014/03/eckel_three_personnel_men_try.html

fwiw

thunderkyss
04-03-2014, 08:09 AM
http://www.nj.com/times-sports/index.ssf/2014/03/eckel_three_personnel_men_try.html

fwiw

I'm just going to guess that his sources are people from the Eagles, Jets, & Giants.

Just a guess.

Playoffs
04-03-2014, 08:54 AM
http://www.nj.com/times-sports/index.ssf/2014/03/eckel_three_personnel_men_try.html

fwiw

Good stuff, thanks for posting. MSR

ArlingtonTexan
04-04-2014, 12:21 PM
Good stuff, thanks for posting. MSR

they have already done one on RBs, so I may need to find somewhere to stuff them as they come out each week

CloakNNNdagger
04-04-2014, 10:48 PM
From an SI piece:


Posted April 04, 2014
Houston Texans leaning toward quarterback with No. 1 pick, per report (http://nfl.si.com/2014/04/04/houston-texans-no-1-pick-2014-nfl-draft-2/)

There is plenty of discussion about what direction the Houston Texans will go with the No. 1 overall pick in the 2014 NFL draft, especially following the pro day of South Carolina defensive end Jadeveon Clowney.

Many believe that Clowney is the most talented player in the 2014 draft class which could lead to the Texans making him their selection, but those who cover the organization still believe they will take one of the top quarterbacks available.

“I’m still predicting a quarterback, as I have been since the day the 2013 season ended. I believe they’ll select Blake Bortles or Johnny Manziel,” Texans beat writer John McClain of the Houston Chronicle wrote. “It doesn’t matter what anyone outside Reliant Stadium thinks they should do. The only three opinions that matter belong to owner Bob McNair, general manager Rick Smith and coach Bill O’Brien.

“Nothing revitalizes an organization like a quarterback drafted in the first round.”

McClain is as dialed in as they come with Texans news, so his opinion certainly holds some weight.

And we all know that he certainly does hold some weight.:)

kiwitexansfan
04-04-2014, 11:46 PM
I hate it when I see that Bob McNair is going to have a say in football decisions.

All the horrible franchises have 'involved' owners.

Raiders, Redskins, Cowboys.... now Texans.

Sign the checks and get the heck out Mr McNair.

infantrycak
04-04-2014, 11:52 PM
I hate it when I see that Bob McNair is going to have a say in football decisions.

All the horrible franchises have 'involved' owners.

Raiders, Redskins, Cowboys.... now Texans.

Sign the checks and get the heck out Mr McNair.

The horrible ones are known for having overly involved junior GM or literal GM owners. All franchises have involved owners.

You don't think the Rooneys have their stamp on the Steelers?

steelbtexan
04-05-2014, 12:00 AM
I hate it when I see that Bob McNair is going to have a say in football decisions.

All the horrible franchises have 'involved' owners.

Raiders, Redskins, Cowboys.... now Texans.

Sign the checks and get the heck out Mr McNair.

The McNair's have put their stamp on their franchise from day 1. (Boselli/Carr) It's a main reason why the Texans are currently sitting at 2-14 with the #1 pick in the draft and still have the same GM who nobody is quite sure what his responsibilities are after 8 yrs.

thunderkyss
04-05-2014, 06:34 AM
I hate it when I see that Bob McNair is going to have a say in football decisions.


No offense to you, you seem to be a pretty knowledgeable fan. I'm sure you have an opinion on who our next pick should be. I'm sure you had an opinion of when Kubiak should have been let go, or when Rick Smith should be.

If you were the owner of the Texans, I have no doubt in my mind you would stear this organization where you think it needs to be. That's all McNair is doing. He's not "overly" involved, but he's not completely hands off either. He sets the vision.

When his "football people" tell him what they're planning on doing, he's going to let them know if that fits his vision or not.

beerlover
04-05-2014, 06:53 AM
This is a very mixed bag of QB prospects for sure. With recent success of 2nd & 3rd rd. QB's if O'Brian is all that, one of those 10 prospects he mentions will be selected. Best case is trade down, select one, or trade back up if bypassed early then slides to fair value.

Playoffs
04-05-2014, 08:23 AM
From an SI piece:

And we all know that he certainly does hold some weight.:)
All of these type pieces are based on McClain's guesses.

McClain is an unabashed Manziel promoter--did it again in interview yesterday-- and writes as such. He has admitted that, "I don't know, but..." on the radio before saying "the Texans will absolutely select a QB with the first pick" -- they go with the second part. Note that on one of the more important prospect pro days, Clowney's, McClain stood silent. On Manziel's he burned up the wires. There's even more to the story.

National media are still under the belief that "The General" is plugged into the Texans, but that's just not the case. He's guessing just like everyone else.

Texian
04-05-2014, 08:29 AM
All of these type pieces are based on McClain's guesses.

McClain is an unabashed Manziel promoter--.

and yet he has Blake Bortles as the Texans #1 pick in his mock draft.

steelbtexan
04-05-2014, 08:44 AM
No offense to you, you seem to be a pretty knowledgeable fan. I'm sure you have an opinion on who our next pick should be. I'm sure you had an opinion of when Kubiak should have been let go, or when Rick Smith should be.

If you were the owner of the Texans, I have no doubt in my mind you would stear this organization where you think it needs to be. That's all McNair is doing. He's not "overly" involved, but he's not completely hands off either. He sets the vision.

When his "football people" tell him what they're planning on doing, he's going to let them know if that fits his vision or not.

If this is the case then McNair's vision of the on the field product has produced losers and likely will continue to do so.

This includes Cal McNair.

Texian
04-05-2014, 09:32 AM
When his "football people" tell him what they're planning on doing, he's going to let them know if that fits his vision or not.

After the Press Conference to fire Kubiak, I think we all learned that Bob McNair is much more involved with the football team decisions than most fans envisioned. Bob McNair is/was as much involved as Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith.The Ed Reed scenario and Wade Phillips not being made aware or consulted is a good example. IMHO McNair erred in thinking he could buy him championship (Carr ext; Ahman Green; AJ highest paid; Foster & Schaub contract; Ed Reed etc).

The picture of the Houston Texans front office as perfect in harmony, professionalism and non-interfering may be more of a myth than a reality. Instead of focusing on finding the best head coach, IMHO McNair should focus on finding the best GM. I believe the Houston Texans could've been a much better team under Kubiak if they would've had a GM capable of making much better business decisions. Unfortunately the prognosis for O'Brien is similar to Kubiak as Texans head coach, the method of operation and pattern of behavior of front office appears to be the same.

I was always under the impression that Rick Smith was Gary Kubiak's right hand man. I believe that I may have been wrong in that assessment. Rick Smith may in fact be Bob McNair's right hand man. Unfortunately, I don't think Bob McNair will relent to an all encompassing GM like Ozzie Newsome to run the Houston Texans. Like Jerry Jones I am not sure that Bob McNair would be willing to relinquish that control to some else. I am also not sure that Bob McNair is any better at running a football team than Jerry Jones.

thunderkyss
04-05-2014, 10:39 AM
Unfortunately, I don't think Bob McNair will relent to an all encompassing GM like Ozzie Newsome to run the Houston Texans. Like Jerry Jones I am not sure that Bob McNair would be willing to relinquish that control to some else. I am also not sure that Bob McNair is any better at running a football team than Jerry Jones.

Even Ozzy Newsome is working within the guidlines set by his boss & Bob McNair is no Jerry Jones.

Texian
04-05-2014, 10:44 AM
Even Ozzy Newsome is working within the guidlines set by his boss & Bob McNair is no Jerry Jones.

I guess you could say that is true. What is also true is some GMs have more responsibilities, expanded guidelines, freedom in decision making and broader parameters than other GMs. Ozzie Newsome, Ted Thompson and Jerry Reese are 3 such GMs. Rick Smith is not.

As for Jerry and Bob, the proof is in the pudding and so far, their pudding is has a very similar flavor, just a different label.

thunderkyss
04-05-2014, 10:50 AM
I guess you could say that is true. What is also true is some GMs have more responsibilities, expanded guidelines, freedom in decision making and broader parameters than other GMs. Ozzie Newsome, Ted Thompson and Jerry Reese are 3 such GMs.

Remember when Cleveland & Miami tried it that way?

Texian
04-05-2014, 11:05 AM
Remember when Cleveland & Miami tried it that way?

Yes I do, It took Haslam less than a year to figure out that the two guys recommended to him by the NFL were in fact not the two guys that were best for running an NFL franchise. Haslam nipped that in the bud in a hurry. Some folks could see that one from coming from the day it was announced. (Lombardi another failed leg from the Belichick tree).

Ireland, a Parcels protege and recommendation, lasted 3 years with Stephen Ross. Haslam and Ross are both new owners still trying to find their way. Will they? or will they make the same mistakes so many other owners seem to make?

thunderkyss
04-05-2014, 11:06 AM
Yes I do, It took Haslam less than a year to figure out that the two guys recommended to him by the NFL were in fact not the two guys that were best for running an NFL franchise. Haslam nipped that in the bud in a hurry. Some folks could see that one from coming from the day it was announced. (Lombardi another failed leg from the Belichick tree).

Ireland, a Parcels protege and recommendation, lasted 3 years with Stephen Ross. Haslam and Ross are both new owners still trying to find their way. Will they? or will they make the same mistakes so many other owners seem to make?

Ah... so that method fails just as well as the other.

Carry on.

Texian
04-05-2014, 11:11 AM
Ah... so that method fails just as well as the other.

Carry on.

What method is that, exactly? The rookie owners getting bad GM recommendations method?

ArlingtonTexan
04-05-2014, 11:57 AM
All of these type pieces are based on McClain's guesses.

McClain is an unabashed Manziel promoter--did it again in interview yesterday-- and writes as such. He has admitted that, "I don't know, but..." on the radio before saying "the Texans will absolutely select a QB with the first pick" -- they go with the second part. Note that on one of the more important prospect pro days, Clowney's, McClain stood silent. On Manziel's he burned up the wires. There's even more to the story.

National media are still under the belief that "The General" is plugged into the Texans, but that's just not the case. He's guessing just like everyone else.

Find it strange that damn near every time "The General" is mentioned in a national report that there is some blurb like that? If I have to keep telling someone of my importance then I probably not really important at all. At some point, your work should just speak for itself (and actually McClain's for does that).

CloakNNNdagger
04-05-2014, 12:32 PM
All of these type pieces are based on McClain's guesses.

McClain is an unabashed Manziel promoter--did it again in interview yesterday-- and writes as such. He has admitted that, "I don't know, but..." on the radio before saying "the Texans will absolutely select a QB with the first pick" -- they go with the second part. Note that on one of the more important prospect pro days, Clowney's, McClain stood silent. On Manziel's he burned up the wires. There's even more to the story.

National media are still under the belief that "The General" is plugged into the Texans, but that's just not the case. He's guessing just like everyone else.

Good post. I know you knew my last statement was tongue-in-cheek. But your lay out of McClain and his approach to the Manziel vs the other QBs and vs Clowney is blatantly laughable.

My suggestion to McClain is that he approach Academy to give him a larger brand new free dart board, so that he can plug "my friends at" on Radio 610.:tiphat:

bah007
04-05-2014, 02:00 PM
No offense to you, you seem to be a pretty knowledgeable fan. I'm sure you have an opinion on who our next pick should be. I'm sure you had an opinion of when Kubiak should have been let go, or when Rick Smith should be.

If you were the owner of the Texans, I have no doubt in my mind you would stear this organization where you think it needs to be. That's all McNair is doing. He's not "overly" involved, but he's not completely hands off either. He sets the vision.

When his "football people" tell him what they're planning on doing, he's going to let them know if that fits his vision or not.

I don't have any problem with this statement. I think it is pretty much on point about how things work around here.

But I don't think that's the way it's supposed to be.

I think the owner should hire people who share his vision, and then step out of the way and let them work. If they fail to fulfill his vision then they will be replaced.

thunderkyss
04-05-2014, 02:25 PM
But I don't think that's the way it's supposed to be.

I think the owner should hire people who share his vision, and then step out of the way and let them work. If they fail to fulfill his vision then they will be replaced.

If I started a .com, or a Bed & Breakfast, or an energy trading firm, I wouldn't take that approach. I'd want to be involved. & if I get to be a billionaire doing such, and buy a basketball team, or a football team, or a baseball team, I'd probably delegate those responsibilities to someone else, so I can be involved in my newest acquisition. More than likely, the other business I started, groomed, built, was a means to this end.

But when I say I would be involved, I would be, "Hey, Dre said Reed wants to come to Houston, make it happen."
Smith:Well, TK, he's kinda old...
Me: You ain't no spring chicken either Rick
Smith: But I ain't out there chasing 23 year olds around a football field either.
Me: Hmm... with our two corners, Kj & Jjo, he'll be fine. We need his leadership.
Smith: I think you're confusing him for Ray Lewis.
Me: Ya think? Who gives a sht what you think. Ask Wade. Let me know what he says.

Then when it was all over & done with
Me: WTH Rick? WTH just happened?
Smith: I told you!...
Me: Bullsht, I said get me Reed & you said "Done!"
Smith: I don't think so. I told you what's what & you said ask Wade.
Me: & what did Wade say?
Smith: He said if you want him, he'll figure something out.
Me: & what did I say after that?
Smith: I didn't ask, you said you wanted him & Wade said he can make it work.
Me: Fire Wade. & the next time we have this type of discussion, if the man don't want him, then I don't want him. Got it?


Man... sure wish that draft would hurry up.

bah007
04-05-2014, 02:45 PM
If I started a .com, or a Bed & Breakfast, or an energy trading firm, I wouldn't take that approach. I'd want to be involved. & if I get to be a billionaire doing such, and buy a basketball team, or a football team, or a baseball team, I'd probably delegate those responsibilities to someone else, so I can be involved in my newest acquisition. More than likely, the other business I started, groomed, built, was a means to this end.

But when I say I would be involved, I would be, "Hey, Dre said Reed wants to come to Houston, make it happen."
Smith:Well, TK, he's kinda old...
Me: You ain't no spring chicken either Rick
Smith: But I ain't out there chasing 23 year olds around a football field either.
Me: Hmm... with our two corners, Kj & Jjo, he'll be fine. We need his leadership.
Smith: I think you're confusing him for Ray Lewis.
Me: Ya think? Who gives a sht what you think. Ask Wade. Let me know what he says.

Then when it was all over & done with
Me: WTH Rick? WTH just happened?
Smith: I told you!...
Me: Bullsht, I said get me Reed & you said "Done!"
Smith: I don't think so. I told you what's what & you said ask Wade.
Me: & what did Wade say?
Smith: He said if you want him, he'll figure something out.
Me: & what did I say after that?
Smith: I didn't ask, you said you wanted him & Wade said he can make it work.
Me: Fire Wade. & the next time we have this type of discussion, if the man don't want him, then I don't want him. Got it?


Man... sure wish that draft would hurry up.

I'm not saying that you don't get involved and you don't make your opinion known.

I'm saying that unless you think you are qualified to be the GM yourself, you should hire someone else to do that job. And if you're going to hire someone to do that job, you should hire someone who you deem to be really good at it. And if you're going to hire someone who is really good at that job (therefore making them better at it than you), then you should let them do the job without stepping on their toes.

The Pencil Neck
04-05-2014, 02:56 PM
I think we've got to define the word "involved."

There's Jerry Jones level of involvement where he IS the GM. There's Dan Snyder level of involvement where he's making his GM follow a certain approach (as in, get the biggest name guys in here.)

But there's also the level of involvement where you're in the room and you're hearing the discussions between the coaches and the GM and the scouts. Where you're taking all that information in and you're offering your own thoughts here and there but you're not forcing anything.

And you see a lot of that in the Hard Knocks shows. When most teams are deciding on which players to keep and which players to cut, there are a lot of people in the room. It's not just one guy arbitrarily deciding who stays and who goes but a give-and-take interchange between lots of people and the owner is usually in there listening and occasionally offering advice... and occasionally being the final arbiter if the various parties come to an impasse.

In some cases, the HC has more of a say and the Owner will side with him more often than not. And in other cases, the GM will have more influence.

That's the way I think it works in our FO but I could be wrong.

With teams like the Cowboys and Redskins, I think the owner follows his own instincts and will sometimes totally disregard what his coaches and other people say. But I think with most teams, the owners are involved with the overall process.

infantrycak
04-05-2014, 03:39 PM
I'm not saying that you don't get involved and you don't make your opinion known.

I'm saying that unless you think you are qualified to be the GM yourself, you should hire someone else to do that job. And if you're going to hire someone to do that job, you should hire someone who you deem to be really good at it. And if you're going to hire someone who is really good at that job (therefore making them better at it than you), then you should let them do the job without stepping on their toes.

Nobody sits back on a large enterprise and never sticks his thumb on the scale. Nobody.

I think we've got to define the word "involved."

There's Jerry Jones level of involvement where he IS the GM. There's Dan Snyder level of involvement where he's making his GM follow a certain approach (as in, get the biggest name guys in here.)

But there's also the level of involvement where you're in the room and you're hearing the discussions between the coaches and the GM and the scouts. Where you're taking all that information in and you're offering your own thoughts here and there but you're not forcing anything.

And you see a lot of that in the Hard Knocks shows. When most teams are deciding on which players to keep and which players to cut, there are a lot of people in the room. It's not just one guy arbitrarily deciding who stays and who goes but a give-and-take interchange between lots of people and the owner is usually in there listening and occasionally offering advice... and occasionally being the final arbiter if the various parties come to an impasse.

In some cases, the HC has more of a say and the Owner will side with him more often than not. And in other cases, the GM will have more influence.

That's the way I think it works in our FO but I could be wrong.

With teams like the Cowboys and Redskins, I think the owner follows his own instincts and will sometimes totally disregard what his coaches and other people say. But I think with most teams, the owners are involved with the overall process.

Nailed it.

CloakNNNdagger
04-08-2014, 06:21 AM
Adam Schefter gives an interview to ESPN on his feeling of the Texans #1 pick and how he sees it fits with the available QBs.


INTERVIEW (http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2014/story/_/id/10744570/houston-texans-host-blake-bortles-johnny-manziel)

thunderkyss
04-08-2014, 11:43 AM
Adam Schefter gives an interview to ESPN on his feeling of the Texans #1 pick and how he sees it fits with the available QBs.


INTERVIEW (http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2014/story/_/id/10744570/houston-texans-host-blake-bortles-johnny-manziel)

That's absurd .

DX-TEX
04-08-2014, 11:49 AM
Adam Schefter gives an interview to ESPN on his feeling of the Texans #1 pick and how he sees it fits with the available QBs.


INTERVIEW (http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2014/story/_/id/10744570/houston-texans-host-blake-bortles-johnny-manziel)

I see no video at that link?

Playoffs
04-08-2014, 12:44 PM
That's absurd .

Texans open to trade.
If no trade, "the feeling around the league is it'll be a defensive player."
Increasingly unlikely top 3 QBs will go at 1-1.
Texans don't have to use their first overall pick on a QB.
Texans might move back into the 1st round to select a QB.

What is absurd?

The Pencil Neck
04-08-2014, 12:49 PM
Texans open to trade.
If no trade, "the feeling around the league is it'll be a defensive player."
Increasingly unlikely top 3 QBs will go at 1-1.
Texans don't have to use their first overall pick on a QB.
Texans might move back into the 1st round to select a QB.

What is absurd?

"That's absurd" are the last two words Schefter said.

TexansFTW
04-08-2014, 01:20 PM
"That's absurd" are the last two words Schefter said.

Who is on first

The Pencil Neck
04-08-2014, 02:37 PM
Who is on first

Yes.

Dutchrudder
04-08-2014, 03:28 PM
Yes.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_piXE8lFEABo/TIKpiwt8REI/AAAAAAAAAHM/EX4eH-oOxqk/s1600/husonfirst.jpg

ObsiWan
04-08-2014, 05:59 PM
I see no video at that link?
Nor do I.
What happened?

CloakNNNdagger
04-08-2014, 06:11 PM
Nor do I.
What happened?
Don't understand your problem.
I clicked on my link.........and it included the video.

ObsiWan
04-08-2014, 06:19 PM
Don't understand your problem.
I clicked on my link.........and it included the video.
:shrug:

The Pencil Neck
04-08-2014, 06:24 PM
:shrug:

It was there for me.

Apparently, it recognizes the more computer-savvy and intelligent posters by examining the cookies of the sites they frequent and then decide to show the video as long as a certain minimum requirement is met. A very low minimum requirement that, unfortunately, you do not meet.

:wadepalm:

Playoffs
04-08-2014, 06:52 PM
I see no video at that link?

Nor do I.
What happened?

I use 3 browsers, IE 9 with flash and no restrictive plugins for full functionality with sites like the one linked. My Chrome and Firefox browsers have higher levels of security for regular browsing & no or controlled flash.

Try disabling ad blocking extensions.

Arky
04-08-2014, 08:55 PM
All I got was the 30 second commercial and the vid never started - just blank. I clicked on Tania's name and found the same article (Texans to host Bortles, Manziel) in her list of articles, clicked on it and then clicked on the video and then it started after another 30 second commercial.

It's Flash video so make sure you are using the latest version of Flash....

http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/ (Make sure to uncheck the Google Chrome box unless you want it....)

IDEXAN
04-10-2014, 10:29 AM
1. Blake Bortles: Simms is impressed with with Central Florida QB's size and the great physical shape he's in, and also what he demonstrated on tape. He believes Bortles could use another year of college experience to sharpen his craft but likes his leadership.

The key point: "Bortles has to work hard to throw the ball well, it doesn't come easy for him. I don't see great rotation on the ball."
2. Johnny Manziel: When I mentioned Manziel, the first thing Simms said was: "Get ready, because the circus is coming to town," and that the team drafting Manziel has to be all in with who Johnny Football is as a quarterback.Simms is "bothered by his size and that speed is such a big part of his game," pointing out that all QBs slow down as their pro careers advance, but NFL defenses never slow down.
3. Teddy Bridgewater: Simms was quick to say Bridgewater's spotty pro day performance was a "red flag." The Louisville QB should have looked a lot better than he did and some of his bad throw tendencies that show up in games were present at the pro day.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/pat-kirwan/24520092/simms-on-qbs-in-draft-from-manziel-circus-to-bridgewater-red-flags

Playoffs
04-10-2014, 10:42 AM
Simms told me when he came out he had 20 private workouts, sometimes four a week with a minimum of 120 throws per workout and he ran a 40 for every staff that came in to his school. No loud music, no orchestrated workout, just tons of throws.
...
Wild cards: Simms found two QBs he would take a chance on later in the draft: Virginia Tech's Logan Thomas Pitt's Tom Savage.

Simms recognizes Thomas is raw, saying, "He might have the best 20 throws you will see from any of these quarterbacks, but he might also have the 20 worst throws."

As for Savage, Simms likes the way he can get a good throw off from any physical position, and make accurate throws across the field, and throws off his back foot are solid.

Playoffs
04-10-2014, 10:53 AM
Texans looking at an unheralded prospect at QB:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bk3mk-hIAAA998j.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bk3mk-hIAAA998j.jpg

kiwitexansfan
04-10-2014, 01:24 PM
Texans looking at an unheralded prospect at QB:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bk3mk-hIAAA998j.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bk3mk-hIAAA998j.jpg

Still an upgrade from the Sanchize.

aussie_texan
04-10-2014, 06:19 PM
Still an upsize from the Sanchize.

fify

kiwitexansfan
04-10-2014, 07:13 PM
fify

lol, think we're both right.

NCTexan
04-11-2014, 10:23 AM
So, I'm not a huge fan of Garoppolo. While his mechanics appear to be a thing of beauty, here are my issues:

First, he seems to struggle with phantom pressure at times and duck way before the pass rush gets there. He doesn't really seem to stand and deliver the ball when he sees a hit coming most times. Instead he relies too much on trying to slip and duck his way out of it.

Second, I'm charting some of his games, and I've only down Towson so far (Illinois St. next), but from that one game I'm definitely a bit worried. He had no throws in the 10-19 yard range outside of one incomplete pass outside the left hash marks. He attempted 5 passes over 20 yards and completed one in the hashes, and one to the right, but had 3 incomplete to the left. Most of his throws were behind the line of scrimmage, or relatively close to it, even in the 0-9 yard range. I want to go back and look at those and break it down from 0-5 and 6-9, but without doing that it seemed like most were in the 0-5 range.

This may have been a bad game to watch and I'm open to changing my opinion when watching more, but between it and the videos of him reacting to phantom pressure, I think he's fools gold right now.

thunderkyss
04-11-2014, 04:30 PM
Casserly thinks there are 7 QBs in this draft that are better prospects than Ej Manuel (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24522156/charley-casserly-7-qbs-in-2014-draft-rate-higher-than-ej-manuel).


"I've got a lot of guys rated ahead of (Manuel) based on their college career and based on Manuel's college career," Casserly said on Thursday's Path to the Draft. "[Teddy] Bridgewater, [Blake] Bortles, [Johnny] Manziel, [Derek] Carr, [Jimmy] Garoppolo and [AJ] McCarron -- I've got them all rated ahead of EJ Manuel coming out a year ago. And you know what, LSU quarterback [Zach] Mettenberger, I've got him ahead of Manuel, too."

leebigeztx
04-14-2014, 12:05 AM
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2008-04-17-sw-matt-ryan_N.htm

just putting it out there

thunderkyss
04-14-2014, 06:56 AM
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2008-04-17-sw-matt-ryan_N.htm

just putting it out there

Question for you. The year before that draft, we had traded two 2nd round picks (2007 & 2008) for Matt Schaub. When it was our turn to pick in the 2008 draft, Joe Flacco was there.

We traded down (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-1/Texans-trade-No-18-pick-to-Ravens/0E64C2AD-9CEC-4DF2-969F-18687E5F7FD0) with the Baltimore Ravens for their 26th pick (which they got from Jacksonville as they traded out of the top 10), their third (also from Jacksonville) and sixth. They got Flacco, we got DBrown, Steve Slaton, & Dominic Barber.

Knowing what you know right now, would you make that trade again?

Corrosion
04-14-2014, 07:29 AM
Question for you. The year before that draft, we had traded two 2nd round picks (2007 & 2008) for Matt Schaub. When it was our turn to pick in the 2008 draft, Joe Flacco was there.

We traded down (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-1/Texans-trade-No-18-pick-to-Ravens/0E64C2AD-9CEC-4DF2-969F-18687E5F7FD0) with the Baltimore Ravens for their 26th pick (which they got from Jacksonville as they traded out of the top 10), their third (also from Jacksonville) and sixth. They got Flacco, we got DBrown, Steve Slaton, & Dominic Barber.

Knowing what you know right now, would you make that trade again?

Tough question .... But its entirely possible you could have had both Flacco with your #18 pick & traded up from the 2nd round to get Brown after both Jeff Otah & Sam Baker were taken by Carloina @ 19 and Atlanta @ 21.

The Texans would have had #2:48 meaning they would have had to move ~22 spots to get to #26. I have to wonder what it would have cost to make that move.
Brown was the last of the top tier tackles , another wasn't taken until pick #65.

I really liked Flacco in that draft , but I get the feeling that the Texans were afraid of his being from a small school.


Brown & Flacco appears better than Schaub , Slaton & Barber.

thunderkyss
04-14-2014, 07:43 AM
I really liked Flacco in that draft , but I get the feeling that the Texans were afraid of his being from a small school.



But he wasn't from a small school, he was from Pittsburgh. He lost the starting job & transferred to the smaller school so he could play.

That would bother me.

Similar to Savage, except he wasn't smart enough to realize he wasn't eligible to play at an FBS school for another year. While Flacco went on to play, Savage sat on his butt for a year, before transferring to Pittsburgh, where he was.. eh...

But that's what would have bothered me, the coaches didn't feel good enough about Flacco to start him & instead of competing head on & winning, he transferred to a smaller school.

At least Cam Newton (totally different circumstances) transferred back into the FBS & kicked asz.

PapaL
04-14-2014, 08:25 AM
But he wasn't from a small school, he was from Pittsburgh. He lost the starting job & transferred to the smaller school so he could play.

That would bother me.

Similar to Savage, except he wasn't smart enough to realize he wasn't eligible to play at an FBS school for another year. While Flacco went on to play, Savage sat on his butt for a year, before transferring to Pittsburgh, where he was.. eh...

But that's what would have bothered me, the coaches didn't feel good enough about Flacco to start him & instead of competing head on & winning, he transferred to a smaller school.

At least Cam Newton (totally different circumstances) transferred back into the FBS & kicked asz.

Flacco played at the powerhouse that is Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens. His time at Pittsburgh was as a redshirt and a backup.

thunderkyss
04-14-2014, 08:55 AM
Flacco played at the powerhouse that is Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens. His time at Pittsburgh was as a redshirt and a backup.

Uh... yeah... I gave the longer version.


If I were a GM or whatever during that draft, It's not that he was a fighting Blue Hen that would have bothered me, it was that he shied away from competition, which led him to be a Blue Hen.

Then I made the comparison to Tom Savage, who lost his starting job & ended up not playing for a year then finishing up at Pittsburgh.

Playoffs
04-14-2014, 09:21 AM
5. A few teams with quarterback needs have an interesting strategy. I’ve heard that at least four quarterback-needy teams—Houston (first pick), Jacksonville (3), Cleveland (4) and Oakland (5)—are strongly considering passing on quarterbacks with their first picks and waiting until their second or third selections. Simple reason: They’re not in love with any of the quarterbacks, and there are too many other good players who are surer things than a quarterback you have sincere doubts about. For that reason, there could be more quarterbacks taken in round two than round one. For instance, Jacksonville really likes Jimmy Garoppolo of Eastern Illinois, and he’d likely be there high in the second round when the Jags pick again, at 39.
http://mmqb.si.com/2014/04/14/nfl-draft-jadeveon-clowney-monday-morning-qb/

infantrycak
04-14-2014, 09:28 AM
But he wasn't from a small school, he was from Pittsburgh. He lost the starting job & transferred to the smaller school so he could play.

That would bother me.

Flacco didn't lose the starting job. Palko was the starter and was setting school records and receiving Big East accolades, etc. The coach didn't replace that with unproven Flacco. In the end he probably regretted that decision.

It's not that he was a fighting Blue Hen that would have bothered me, it was that he shied away from competition, which led him to be a Blue Hen.

Given all your comments about TB's level of competition the former seems unlikely. So he was just supposed to sit around wasting years of eligibility with no opportunity to be on the field and show anyone anything? Sometimes the best way to show confidence is to say "coach you're making a mistake and I'm going to go somewhere and prove it." Clearly his plan was better.

steelbtexan
04-14-2014, 10:16 AM
So, I'm not a huge fan of Garoppolo. While his mechanics appear to be a thing of beauty, here are my issues:

First, he seems to struggle with phantom pressure at times and duck way before the pass rush gets there. He doesn't really seem to stand and deliver the ball when he sees a hit coming most times. Instead he relies too much on trying to slip and duck his way out of it.

Second, I'm charting some of his games, and I've only down Towson so far (Illinois St. next), but from that one game I'm definitely a bit worried. He had no throws in the 10-19 yard range outside of one incomplete pass outside the left hash marks. He attempted 5 passes over 20 yards and completed one in the hashes, and one to the right, but had 3 incomplete to the left. Most of his throws were behind the line of scrimmage, or relatively close to it, even in the 0-9 yard range. I want to go back and look at those and break it down from 0-5 and 6-9, but without doing that it seemed like most were in the 0-5 range.

This may have been a bad game to watch and I'm open to changing my opinion when watching more, but between it and the videos of him reacting to phantom pressure, I think he's fools gold right now.

The phantom pressure thing doesn't bother me. Him slipping away shows me that he knows how to work the pocket. The throwing to the left thing bothers me, but I didn't see this problem in the all star games and if his mechanics are as good as they appear to be BOB should have no problem cleaning this flaw up. But then again you've probably watched more film of Garappolo than I have.

With that said all QB's have weaknesses in their games coming out of college, including the big 3. But give me the guy with great mechanics and a good head on his shoulders. He's more likely to fix the warts. It's really up to any of these QB's at the top of this draft to work hard and study hard to improve. Out of the top 7 QB's 2/3 of them will put in the work and become great starters. I'm betting on Garappolo.

leebigeztx
04-14-2014, 08:03 PM
Question for you. The year before that draft, we had traded two 2nd round picks (2007 & 2008) for Matt Schaub. When it was our turn to pick in the 2008 draft, Joe Flacco was there.

We traded down (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-1/Texans-trade-No-18-pick-to-Ravens/0E64C2AD-9CEC-4DF2-969F-18687E5F7FD0) with the Baltimore Ravens for their 26th pick (which they got from Jacksonville as they traded out of the top 10), their third (also from Jacksonville) and sixth. They got Flacco, we got DBrown, Steve Slaton, & Dominic Barber.

Knowing what you know right now, would you make that trade again?

I didn't like the schaub trade,but I understood it.Kubes got the job because I'm sure he told mcnair he could fix carr. He quickly found out as the nfl did that carr couldn't be. So the pro personel guys found schaub who was stuck behind vick who ran wco in college. The weight of his contract made them pass on qbs in the draft. U don't give up 2 2nd rd picks and 48m and draft a qb high. You can tell they were at their end with schaub until he threw for 4k and stayed healthy.

My point of the article is you have to ignore the noise,identify the right qb,and make the pick. As the article stated, ryan was anywhere from 1-9. Look through old predraft talk as I do, and make your own assessment of qbs. I know this and recent nfl history will tell you,get the qb in the 1st rd. If its a 2nd rd guy,you have to be right on him or its a wasted pick also like claussen,henne.

steelbtexan
04-14-2014, 08:29 PM
Tough question .... But its entirely possible you could have had both Flacco with your #18 pick & traded up from the 2nd round to get Brown after both Jeff Otah & Sam Baker were taken by Carloina @ 19 and Atlanta @ 21.

The Texans would have had #2:48 meaning they would have had to move ~22 spots to get to #26. I have to wonder what it would have cost to make that move.
Brown was the last of the top tier tackles , another wasn't taken until pick #65.

I really liked Flacco in that draft , but I get the feeling that the Texans were afraid of his being from a small school.


Brown & Flacco appears better than Schaub , Slaton & Barber.

I wonder if Mosley/Nix is available at 2-1 would the Texans pick him? Then would they be willing to trade back up to say 35 to take say Garappolo/Mettenberger/Savage/Murray and how much would the cost be? 3-1/5-1 & a 2015 3rd? Would you do a deal like that?

There seem to be some similarities between Flacco and Savage.