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View Full Version : Brees, Foles and .... yes, Keenum


maddogmrb
01-05-2014, 05:48 PM
I watched much of the Saints/Eagles game and was most interested to see how one of the best QBs and one of the highly touted up-and-coming QBs performed. Here are some observations:

1- BOTH struggled mightily when they were under heavy pressure.
2- Both did well when they weren't under heavy pressure.
3- It was obvious that both teams' good running games helped the passing games and made the QBs lives easier.
4- Foles tends to hold the ball LONGER than Keenum and takes sacks instead of committing turnovers. This was discussed as a GOOD trait.
5- Highly mobile Brees was also sacked under heavy pressure ... his fault???
6- BOTH made several errant passes.
7- Brees threw more int's than TDs ... if Keenum had done that every one here would be saying he's terrible.
8- Both QBs obviously have playoff caliber teams around them.

I have said all along that the injuries the Texans suffered along with lack of oline talent on the right side combined with INCOMPETENT coaching were the BIGGEST problems Keenum had last year.

I hope we get some excellent coaching and healthy players and improved oline and that Keenum gets another chance under those conditions.

infantrycak
01-05-2014, 05:53 PM
:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse :gun:

LikeMike
01-05-2014, 05:53 PM
So you take 2 subpar QB performances to show that we should give Keenum another chance? Keenum was great for us at first, then got worse fast as teams got some tape on him. I like him, but he has shown very little on why he should get a new chance. I am all for a real QB battle in camp with a real shot for everybody, but I don`t expect Keenum to come out on top of it if we get a good QB through draft or FA...

Hervoyel
01-05-2014, 05:56 PM
Note that no matter how bad they both played today (didn't watch it) at least one of them actually ended the day with a "W" which is something Keenum has yet to do. I'm sure O'Brien will give Keenum a fair and impartial look..... kind of like he did with those coaches he met with.

PapaL
01-05-2014, 05:57 PM
Case is that you?

Playoffs
01-05-2014, 05:59 PM
Eat 'Em Up! Eat 'Em Up! Rah! Rah! Rah!

kingtexan
01-05-2014, 06:00 PM
Case will be a good back-up, but not a starter.

ATXtexanfan
01-05-2014, 07:13 PM
Keenum sucks alot. Hold on wait...........more than I thought initially

revan
01-05-2014, 07:23 PM
Just let it go bro, Case had more than enough chances to prove his worth. Time to move on, especially with the number one pick.

Seegara
01-05-2014, 07:24 PM
I watched much of the Saints/Eagles game and was most interested to see how one of the best QBs and one of the highly touted up-and-coming QBs performed. Here are some observations:

1- BOTH struggled mightily when they were under heavy pressure.
2- Both did well when they weren't under heavy pressure.
3- It was obvious that both teams' good running games helped the passing games and made the QBs lives easier.
4- Foles tends to hold the ball LONGER than Keenum and takes sacks instead of committing turnovers. This was discussed as a GOOD trait.
5- Highly mobile Brees was also sacked under heavy pressure ... his fault???
6- BOTH made several errant passes.
7- Brees threw more int's than TDs ... if Keenum had done that every one here would be saying he's terrible.
8- Both QBs obviously have playoff caliber teams around them.

I have said all along that the injuries the Texans suffered along with lack of oline talent on the right side combined with INCOMPETENT coaching were the BIGGEST problems Keenum had last year.

I hope we get some excellent coaching and healthy players and improved oline and that Keenum gets another chance under those conditions.
I'm afraid we've already seen that Keenum is not starting caliber, although he's ok as our backup. He was under a hard rush for a reason: Opponents learned to contain him in the pocket and blitz hard inside and he was helpless.

Hervoyel
01-05-2014, 08:06 PM
Everything is based on what came before it.

Keenum got a UDFA contract based on what he'd done in college.

He got a spot on the practice squad because he made an impression on someone.

He later made the team based on what he'd done on the practice squad and what he did in preseason and he jumped past Yates in reality if not on the depth chart for the same reason.

He got to start because of all of that put together.

Now he's had a bunch of starts and none of them were victories. Is it fair? No. Of course not. Some of those were losses because of things that Case had nothing to do with. Was Schaub the only reason we lost a bunch of his final games? No, not really. The NFL isn't fair. It's as close to fair as it can be and that's about all you get.

Team sport. They all succeed or go down together.

Case will probably come to OTA's and camp next year but if he does make it that far he'll have to impress O'Brien enough to overcome what he did this year. I'm not going to say its impossible but now Case is in a new and unfamiliar position. His past isn't something he can point to and leverage to his benefit. It's something he's got to make a new HC and complete stranger forget about.

That doesn't work to his advantage. I'll be surprised if he makes the team next year. I bet O'Brien is going to bring in all new QB's and his guys will make the team. Schaub will be cut and Yates and Keenum won't even make it out of training camp. They'll just be camp arms unless one of them does something really amazing that makes O'Brien take notice. It won't be something they do on the field either. It will have to come before that. They'll have to impress him with their minds.

ATXtexanfan
01-05-2014, 08:10 PM
Case closed. .........had to do it

htowntexans1985
01-05-2014, 08:11 PM
Nah bro, just.....nah.

Corrosion
01-05-2014, 08:11 PM
The difference between those two guy's & Case Keenum .... They can read an NFL defense , Keenum simply cant.

Texan_Bill
01-05-2014, 08:28 PM
Case will be a good back-up, but not a starter.

and

The difference between those two guy's & Case Keenum .... They can read an NFL defense , Keenum simply cant.



Exactly!

Honoring Earl 34
01-05-2014, 09:04 PM
and





Exactly!

I'm not so sure it's Case can't read a defense as much as it is Case won't take what's given to him and check down .

dream_team
01-05-2014, 09:26 PM
I'm ok with Case coming back next season to compete for any QB job on the team, but I give it a 2% chance it'll be the starting job. Eventually, you have to realize the obvious, that every GM in the league knew this guy wasn't a starting caliber QB in the league.

Texn4life
01-05-2014, 09:31 PM
Keenum is a legit backup who should improve as he gets more film study and work in. Why can't people be satisfied with that? That's a good career option for an undrafted player. Most didn't think he was capable of even that, but he proved he could step in if necessary.

He's just not the QB to take a team to the next level. Get over it!

thunderkyss
01-05-2014, 10:11 PM
If "we" didn't think we had a legit shot at the Super Bowl, I believe Tj would have been allowed to move on, & Case would have been our back-up. He'd have had more time to actually work on his game vs NFL defenses.

I also believe if Kubiak didn't shrink in the face of pressure, he'd have tweaked his offense to help Case. But as it was, he needed a win & he clung to what he knew.

Unfortunately, we're going to have at least 2 new QBs on our roster next season. A vet, a rookie, & I would imagine Case or TJ. The other two are going to be given the most opportunity to succeed. Case is going to have to do what he can just to survive & if he gets another opportunity to prove he belongs in this league... he'd better be ready.

PapaL
01-05-2014, 10:20 PM
If the JUGS machine breaks and we need someone to lob rainbows to AJ in practice he will have a job. Other wise "it's not you it's me...lets be friends" seems like the appropriate line.

burro
01-06-2014, 09:53 PM
I see a lot of people saying things like "Keenum proved he can't take you to the next level..." How can a QB have proved such mediocrity in his first 8 games as a starter?

1) He didn't have Owen Daniels, TEs are important for inexperienced QBs.
2) His run game support consisted of Ben Tate with broken ribs and PS guys.
3) The HC responsible for developing him was a lame-duck that didn't want him on the field in the first place and proved this by inexplicably sending Schaub back onto the field twice.
4) The Oline play was bad, to put it mildly

Considering the above, the Keenum experiment is inconclusive at worst. There's definitely a lot for him to work on, but if O'Brien is interested in working with him - there is nothing about Keenum's game that is irreparable.

2012Champs
01-06-2014, 10:10 PM
I see a lot of people saying things like "Keenum proved he can't take you to the next level..." How can a QB have proved such mediocrity in his first 8 games as a starter?

1) He didn't have Owen Daniels, TEs are important for inexperienced QBs.
2) His run game support consisted of Ben Tate with broken ribs and PS guys.
3) The HC responsible for developing him was a lame-duck that didn't want him on the field in the first place and proved this by inexplicably sending Schaub back onto the field twice.
4) The Oline play was bad, to put it mildly

Considering the above, the Keenum experiment is inconclusive at worst. There's definitely a lot for him to work on, but if O'Brien is interested in working with him - there is nothing about Keenum's game that is irreparable.


There is nothing irreplaceable about Keenum. The kid never put the team on his back and carried them to victory. Make all the excuses you want, show me stats for other QBs who started in the league and it's still the same.

thunderkyss
01-06-2014, 10:21 PM
Considering the above, the Keenum experiment is inconclusive at worst. There's definitely a lot for him to work on, but if O'Brien is interested in working with him - there is nothing about Keenum's game that is irreparable.

I'll add that Kubiak didn't help him much by not calling a game conducive to what Keenum knows.

But this is the NFL, Not Fair League. If I'm a new HC I know I'm going to be judged on wins, both short & long term. Especially with the college mindset, you'd think he would want to find the best talent available & bring it in. Being a QB guru, I bet he wants to bring his own.

I would think he'll bring in a vet & draft a QB in the first round. Keenum becomes a third wheel. Whether Keenum can become someone who can get it done, is not the question. He just ran out of time.

burro
01-06-2014, 10:31 PM
I'll add that Kubiak didn't help him much by not calling a game conducive to what Keenum knows.

But this is the NFL, Not Fair League. If I'm a new HC I know I'm going to be judged on wins, both short & long term. Especially with the college mindset, you'd think he would want to find the best talent available & bring it in. Being a QB guru, I bet he wants to bring his own.

I would think he'll bring in a vet & draft a QB in the first round. Keenum becomes a third wheel. Whether Keenum can become someone who can get it done, is not the question. He just ran out of time.

I agree with all of this. The only point I was trying to make is that Keenum isn't a failure based on this season and with a fair shot could be starter in the NFL. Not with the Texans, but somewhere.

thitch
01-06-2014, 10:33 PM
Keenum was arguably the best QB on our roster last year, I don't think anyone can really dispute that (note the qualifier arguably). If he can beat out the veteran signed next season, I bet he starts over a drafted rookie.

kiwitexansfan
01-06-2014, 10:43 PM
Keenum was arguably the best QB on our roster last year, I don't think anyone can really dispute that (note the qualifier arguably). If he can beat out the veteran signed next season, I bet he starts over a drafted rookie.

He probably played the best game/s of our QBs last year.

Overall, I think Schaub would of graded out higher in the end. Certainly seemed to move the ball more consistently (even if he still failed to score TDs).

QBR had Schaub 32, Keenum 35.

Rating Keenum 27, Schaub 33.

speedfreek
01-07-2014, 08:21 AM
Given the history of football in the city of Houston, Keenum
will be cut by Obrien, picked up by a team with a tradition of
winning and eventually propel them to a superbowl.

As a fan of Houston football, I'm accustomed to that type of
thing..

2slik4u
01-07-2014, 08:57 AM
Keenum was arguably the best QB on our roster last year, I don't think anyone can really dispute that (note the qualifier arguably). If he can beat out the veteran signed next season, I bet he starts over a drafted rookie.

I can argue against that.

For the first three games he was lights out. Teams got tape on him and he looked like an UDFA. I knew when Bob said he would start the rest of the season that we would not have another win. He proved completely inadequate against the blitz and his throws were nothing less than erratic.

In simple terms, he was absolutely awful. I'm not saying schaub is head and shoulders above him but when he was in there we consistently moved the ball and football was at least bearable to watch...even though we all knew we would lose.

Schaub needs to be cut. He has the Yips. He is damaged goods but there is no way keenum was better than him.

2slik4u
01-07-2014, 08:59 AM
I see a lot of people saying things like "Keenum proved he can't take you to the next level..." How can a QB have proved such mediocrity in his first 8 games as a starter?

1) He didn't have Owen Daniels, TEs are important for inexperienced QBs.
2) His run game support consisted of Ben Tate with broken ribs and PS guys.
3) The HC responsible for developing him was a lame-duck that didn't want him on the field in the first place and proved this by inexplicably sending Schaub back onto the field twice.
4) The Oline play was bad, to put it mildly

Considering the above, the Keenum experiment is inconclusive at worst. There's definitely a lot for him to work on, but if O'Brien is interested in working with him - there is nothing about Keenum's game that is irreparable.


Maybe so but he did go 0-8 and at least 3-4 games he had the ball in his hands on the final drive to go ahead.

Maybe with some work he can swing it but I'm not sold on him being better than a rookie at this point.

b0ng
01-07-2014, 09:14 AM
Keenum reminds me a lot of Grossman (Not in a bad way either). Kid lives to unleash the dragon and not much else unfortunately. He's like the vice president of the "_____ It I'm Going Deep" club.

http://funkatron.com/content/im-goin-deep-fan-club.jpg

Insideop
01-07-2014, 09:42 AM
Given the history of football in the city of Houston, Keenum
will be cut by Obrien, picked up by a team with a tradition of
winning and eventually propel them to a superbowl.

As a fan of Houston football, I'm accustomed to that type of
thing..

Yep! That's just about the way things go around here. :brickwall:

Look, I don't know if Keenum got a "fair" shot or not and I don't think the blame for this team's failures can be put on one thing, like most on here seem to want it to be (coaching). The things that ruined this team the most were cutting/moving players over the last 2 years because of cap issues, injuries to key players (Cush, Manning, OD, etc), and an inability to replace those players through the draft or FA. If you think it was only the coaching ask yourself this; why did the same coaches win 2 divisional titles and have a 24 and 12 record the previous 2 years? What changed?

This team had been built to run the system that Kubes and Wade wanted. That team reached it's peak last season. The systems that each run are good systems with the right personnel in place, but they can't overcome the amount of players lost to the cap or injury that the Texans lost. Are some teams able to overcome these? They can if they have a "franchise QB." NE comes to mind with TB. Unfortunately for the Texans they didn't have one and they paid for it with a 2-14 record and a coaching change.

I don't know if Case will get another chance with O'Brien as the coach but I hope he does somewhere. I don't think the things people are saying he failed at can't be corrected. I just remember all the negativity around here for Kareem Jackson, Shilo Keo, and others when they were new to the League. Sometimes you just have to give players time to develop. JMO!

The1ApplePie
01-07-2014, 10:17 AM
People often compare Drew Brees to Case Keenum.

They are like "Drew Brees is a great quarterback!" and "Case Keenum totally sucks!"

Double Barrel
01-07-2014, 11:19 AM
There is a reason why the kid was an UDFA and sat on the Texans practice squad for a year without 31 other teams showing even the slightest interest in him.

It happens every year. My son just graduated SFA on a football scholarship. They had a player up there that was a really great WR (Cordell Roberson), set all kinds of school records, and everyone was certain he'd be drafted. Not only did he go un-drafted, but the Browns checked him out and let him go, and I think he's barely hanging on the practice squad of the Bills right now.

The point being that great college players get overlooked and bypassed by the NFL every year. And it's not because the NFL is not interested, but rather they get to pick the cream of the crop, and many of these great college players are marginal in the pros.

Case is that type of player, as well. I wish him the best, but if you're pragmatic, you'd realize that he's been lucky to get the chances he's had so far.

PapaL
01-07-2014, 11:35 AM
Keenum was arguably the best QB on our roster last year, I don't think anyone can really dispute that (note the qualifier arguably). If he can beat out the veteran signed next season, I bet he starts over a drafted rookie.

And? He was the best of the worst? Let's name a street after him while we're at it.

Arky
01-07-2014, 11:47 AM
I think Keenum got "mental" towards the end. Wouldn't go so far as to say he's damaged goods or ruined, but he needs to regroup if he's going to stay in the NFL.

At first, he was slinging it. A 70% completion rate in his last two years of college and then looked decisive and accurate in the NFL preseason as well as his first couple of games of live action. And then his accuracy went to hell... At first I thought it was miscommunication between he and the receiver but came to realize he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and was slow getting the ball out. Teams having tape on him has nothing to do with missing a wide open receiver on a 10 yard pass. Sure, he still hit the occasional deep pass but those got more scarce. Keenum without his accuracy is man-on-the-street.

I *was* a fan but he's got to regroup if he wants to continue. It's up to him.....

76Texan
01-07-2014, 11:59 AM
There is a reason why the kid was an UDFA and sat on the Texans practice squad for a year without 31 other teams showing even the slightest interest in him.

It happens every year. My son just graduated SFA on a football scholarship. They had a player up there that was a really great WR (Cordell Roberson), set all kinds of school records, and everyone was certain he'd be drafted. Not only did he go un-drafted, but the Browns checked him out and let him go, and I think he's barely hanging on the practice squad of the Bills right now.

The point being that great college players get overlooked and bypassed by the NFL every year. And it's not because the NFL is not interested, but rather they get to pick the cream of the crop, and many of these great college players are marginal in the pros.

Case is that type of player, as well. I wish him the best, but if you're pragmatic, you'd realize that he's been lucky to get the chances he's had so far.
I'm not sure your point is valid all the time.
I'm sure you've heard of Kurt Warner.
He even got cut by the team that took him as an UDFA.
He then spent 4 years in the Arena League before given a chance to be a third stringer.

JFYI, Roberson got a call-up to the 53-man roster in Dec.

That doesn't necessarily mean either he or Keenum will ever start in the future.
It simply means that both need to show that they improve year over year to get a shot, and that is not a guarantee.

HOU-TEX
01-07-2014, 12:06 PM
Keenum got progressively worse the more he played. He either could not or would not read a defense to save his life. IMO, he's not even good enough to be in the NFL, much less a starter. Honestly, for anyone to even mention him as a starter is surprising given what we saw.

76Texan
01-07-2014, 12:32 PM
Keenum got progressively worse the more he played. He either could not or would not read a defense to save his life. IMO, he's not even good enough to be in the NFL, much less a starter. Honestly, for anyone to even mention him as a starter is surprising given what we saw.

As usual, what people observe can be quite different.
And most people never declared that he will ever become a bona-fide starter, especially of late.
Some, like me, simply say that the grade is incomplete.

2012Champs
01-07-2014, 12:33 PM
I'm not sure your point is valid all the time.
I'm sure you've heard of Kurt Warner.
He even got cut by the team that took him as an UDFA.
He then spent 4 years in the Arena League before given a chance to be a third stringer.

JFYI, Roberson got a call-up to the 53-man roster in Dec.

That doesn't necessarily mean either he or Keenum will ever start in the future.
It simply means that both need to show that they improve year over year to get a shot, and that is not a guarantee.



While you can pull an example or two history would say that odds certainly arent in his favor. Keenum's best chance at becoming a legit starter in this league was to perform well in his 7-8 games and post a win or a few of them despite what was happening around him.

IlliniJen
01-07-2014, 12:50 PM
Reading some of the posts in this thread, you'd think that Texas was the one to legalize ganja on January 1.

I'm starting to wonder who is worse...the Keenum homers or the VY homers...and the VY homers have come out of the woodwork again, saying the Texans should sign him.

What world are these people living in?

Dutchrudder
01-07-2014, 01:05 PM
Reading some of the posts in this thread, you'd think that Texas was the one to legalize ganja on January 1.

I'm starting to wonder who is worse...the Keenum homers or the VY homers...and the VY homers have come out of the woodwork again, saying the Texans should sign him.

What world are these people living in?

Just wait until Keenum throws a touchdown for another team in 2015, then they will really unleash the cougar fury!

Keenum was just a tease, not much more...
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/GIFs/tumblr-mch294zunq1r88u00o1-400.gif~original (http://s465.photobucket.com/user/themishkin/media/GIFs/tumblr-mch294zunq1r88u00o1-400.gif.html)

76Texan
01-07-2014, 01:08 PM
While you can pull an example or two history would say that odds certainly arent in his favor. Keenum's best chance at becoming a legit starter in this league was to perform well in his 7-8 games and post a win or a few of them despite what was happening around him.

All of your points in this particular post are valid.

But then again, Keenum's odd has always been long.
The same goes for all the UDFAs and low round draft picks before and after him.
It's not anything new.

Double Barrel
01-07-2014, 02:04 PM
I'm not sure your point is valid all the time.
I'm sure you've heard of Kurt Warner.
He even got cut by the team that took him as an UDFA.
He then spent 4 years in the Arena League before given a chance to be a third stringer.

JFYI, Roberson got a call-up to the 53-man roster in Dec.

That doesn't necessarily mean either he or Keenum will ever start in the future.
It simply means that both need to show that they improve year over year to get a shot, and that is not a guarantee.

Kurt Warner is an obvious exception to a very long and established rule of history in the NFL.

You can name one example, and with that example we could come up with a list of thousands that were great in college but could not survive in the NFL.

The ratio would be like 1:10,000

Those are not favorable odds.

I'm not saying Keenum cannot or will not, but rather I'm just using NFL history as a guide to form an objective, non-emotional, unbiased perspective. I do not flavor my opinion with UH homerism or hometown hero stories, but rather look big picture and go from there.

Your point seems like we should just try to find a starting QB in the 6th round since that's where the Patriots found Tom Brady.

But, both the examples of Kurt Warner and Tom Brady share one thing in common: when they got their chances they made the most of it and proved why they were starting caliber QBs.

We have film on Keenum that does not seem to reveal the same career arch. We can assign blame to wherever to support Keenum and deflect blame, but in the end, I do not see any teams using that same mentality to sign him up.

drs23
01-07-2014, 03:41 PM
Just wait until Keenum throws a touchdown for another team in 2015, then they will really unleash the cougar fury!

Keenum was just a tease, not much more...
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/GIFs/tumblr-mch294zunq1r88u00o1-400.gif~original (http://s465.photobucket.com/user/themishkin/media/GIFs/tumblr-mch294zunq1r88u00o1-400.gif.html)



:foottap:

drs23
01-07-2014, 03:44 PM
Kurt Warner is an obvious exception to a very long and established rule of history in the NFL.

You can name one example, and with that example we could come up with a list of thousands that were great in college but could not survive in the NFL.

The ratio would be like 1:10,000

Those are not favorable odds.

I'm not saying Keenum cannot or will not, but rather I'm just using NFL history as a guide to form an objective, non-emotional, unbiased perspective. I do not flavor my opinion with UH homerism or hometown hero stories, but rather look big picture and go from there.

Your point seems like we should just try to find a starting QB in the 6th round since that's where the Patriots found Tom Brady.

But, both the examples of Kurt Warner and Tom Brady share one thing in common: when they got their chances they made the most of it and proved why they were starting caliber QBs.

We have film on Keenum that does not seem to reveal the same career arch. We can assign blame to wherever to support Keenum and deflect blame, but in the end, I do not see any teams using that same mentality to sign him up.

Don't forget about that 4th grader in Kentucky. He can sling it ya know? :kitten:

Dutchrudder
01-07-2014, 03:46 PM
:foottap:

Sorry, here you go:

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/GIFs/jv9Jm.gif~original (http://s465.photobucket.com/user/themishkin/media/GIFs/jv9Jm.gif.html)

drs23
01-07-2014, 04:05 PM
Sorry, here you go:

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr14/themishkin/GIFs/jv9Jm.gif~original (http://s465.photobucket.com/user/themishkin/media/GIFs/jv9Jm.gif.html)

How'd I know something like this would follow. :pop:

76Texan
01-07-2014, 06:07 PM
DB, if you wait, I can find many more examples.

I actually did. It was sprinkled in many of my posts.

Double Barrel
01-07-2014, 06:26 PM
DB, if you wait, I can find many more examples.

I actually did. It was sprinkled in many of my posts.

I'm not arguing against UFDA's in the NFL. There are examples of great players that did not get drafted, and that's pretty easy to investigate.

But, for every successful UDFA, we can surely name many, many others that never panned out.

And yeah, I'm aware of Roberson getting called up in December. But, he's marginal, at best, and will be lucky to be invited to camp according to what I've been told. He is experiencing difficulty in learning an NFL playbook.

As far as Keenum, I hope they try to work with him to see if he can offer anything to the team, at least as a backup.

But surely you're not trying to debate that he's worth the starting job at this point.

76Texan
01-07-2014, 06:28 PM
First of all, saying that my point is to draft a QB in the sixth round is pure non-sense.

My point is that unless there's a bona fide franchise QB, you really need to make sure to use the number one overall pick to its best value; or even in certain case, the number two overall pick (in those rare years when there's one or two bona fide franchise QBs.)

History has shown that teams can and did fall in love with a prospect QB at number one overall, only to see them become a bust.

76Texan
01-07-2014, 06:37 PM
I'm not arguing against UFDA's in the NFL. There are examples of great players that did not get drafted, and that's pretty easy to investigate.

But, for every successful UDFA, we can surely name many, many others that never panned out.

And yeah, I'm aware of Roberson getting called up in December. But, he's marginal, at best, and will be lucky to be invited to camp according to what I've been told. He is experiencing difficulty in learning an NFL playbook.

As far as Keenum, I hope they try to work with him to see if he can offer anything to the team, at least as a backup.

But surely you're not trying to debate that he's worth the starting job at this point.
Your point is well-taken.
For those who don't know, DB is one of the posters whose opinions I value highly.

At no point will I offer that Keenum is worth the starting role at this moment.
Not even last year, when my only proposal was that he deserved a look to see if he's starter material.

Even if he's only an average QB, or a marginal average QB (16th-20th), it could help to have him while we build other positions.

Now if there's a Luck or RGiii type of QB in this draft, you will find me on board drafting them with the number one overall pick.
Or Cam Newton (whom I "declared" as worthy of the overall number one pick.)

Each of them had a few small flaws, but I never disagreed that they were worth the position where they got drafted.

Double Barrel
01-07-2014, 07:05 PM
Your point is well-taken.
For those who don't know, DB is one of the posters whose opinions I value highly.

At no point will I offer that Keenum is worth the starting role at this moment.
Not even last year, when my only proposal was that he deserved a look to see if he's starter material.

Even if he's only an average QB, or a marginal average QB (16th-20th), it could help to have him while we build other positions.

Now if there's a Luck or RGiii type of QB in this draft, you will find me on board drafting them with the number one overall pick.
Or Cam Newton (whom I "declared" as worthy of the overall number one pick.)

Each of them had a few small flaws, but I never disagreed that they were worth the position where they got drafted.

Good points, man (and thanks for the props :)).

I would not have a problem if they leveraged the no. 1 overall pick to do more things for the roster than select some unproven college QB that will have the weight of the franchise on his shoulders. Picking a QB that high means the fans will demand an immediate start. Regardless if the FO listens to demands or not (and I assume they do not), it's a distraction that this team will not need next season.

If they brought in a journeyman QB this year, or drafted someone in the 2nd or 3rd, and then worked with Keenum in the meantime, I would not have a problem with this strategy. Keenum showed enough that you could make the case that he could improve, and like you said, it's not unprecedented.

And also like you mentioned, there is no clear cut no. 1 overall QB pick in this draft. I'm a fan of so-called "drafting ugly", building the offensive and defensive lines to win the battle of the trenches. For me, that type of solid foundation building pays dividends down the road as these guys mature and become a cohesive unit with the veterans.

76Texan
01-07-2014, 07:07 PM
Next, when DB limited the criteria to great QBs in college, he further narrows down the list to a bare minimum.

My point was never that.

My point is that, yes, there are reasons why some players, in this case QBs (but not exclusively), were not selected high or went undrafted.

You, as a GM, or a high-level coach, or a head of the scouting department, should never leave any stone unturned.

I had mentioned this before, and I figure I mention it again.
Your team may be limited in cap space, but if there's no rule regarding scouting, why don't you spend more resources on this aspect of the draft?

The days ahead of last year draft for example, I mentioned in the draft forum that as individuals, it's hard to gauge the situation of a guy like Keenan Allen.
I had him in the first round, ahead of many first rounders.
But I can't tell whether his injury is going to be significant, since I don't have the resources that the teams do.

The guy just has a knack to get open, a combination of understanding how the offense is trying to attack the defense and how the defense might react to it.

The same thing goes with the receiver from Wisconsin, who's coming out this year.
He was a walk-on who saw passes from four different QBs.
He's just a smart guy who knows how to get open; I've said that in his Jr year.

Don't forget Swope, from a&M; but I was against him due to the concussions he suffered (and another guy from Stanford, whom Luck led into hard hits unecessarily).

There are a lot of football to watch, and never enough time of the day.

I wish our GM, HC, and owner would spend resources on scouting.
(PI also need to be included - by that, I mean private investigator.)

76Texan
01-07-2014, 07:23 PM
Good points, man (and thanks for the props :)).

I would not have a problem if they leveraged the no. 1 overall pick to do more things for the roster than select some unproven college QB that will have the weight of the franchise on his shoulders. Picking a QB that high means the fans will demand an immediate start. Regardless if the FO listens to demands or not (and I assume they do not), it's a distraction that this team will not need next season.

If they brought in a journeyman QB this year, or drafted someone in the 2nd or 3rd, and then worked with Keenum in the meantime, I would not have a problem with this strategy. Keenum showed enough that you could make the case that he could improve, and like you said, it's not unprecedented.

And also like you mentioned, there is no clear cut no. 1 overall QB pick in this draft. I'm a fan of so-called "drafting ugly", building the offensive and defensive lines to win the battle of the trenches. For me, that type of solid foundation building pays dividends down the road as these guys mature and become a cohesive unit with the veterans.

This is just another level-headed post that I grew accustomed to with DB.
There are others, and I think we're growing little by little.

Healthy debates on football, whether we disagree on certain thing(s), here Nd there.

ObsiWan
01-07-2014, 10:34 PM
Good points, man (and thanks for the props :)).

I would not have a problem if they leveraged the no. 1 overall pick to do more things for the roster than select some unproven college QB that will have the weight of the franchise on his shoulders. Picking a QB that high means the fans will demand an immediate start. Regardless if the FO listens to demands or not (and I assume they do not), it's a distraction that this team will not need next season.

If they brought in a journeyman QB this year, or drafted someone in the 2nd or 3rd, and then worked with Keenum in the meantime, I would not have a problem with this strategy. Keenum showed enough that you could make the case that he could improve, and like you said, it's not unprecedented.

And also like you mentioned, there is no clear cut no. 1 overall QB pick in this draft. I'm a fan of so-called "drafting ugly", building the offensive and defensive lines to win the battle of the trenches. For me, that type of solid foundation building pays dividends down the road as these guys mature and become a cohesive unit with the veterans.
Agree with all your points. Especially the one about parlaying that #1 pick into more picks. If O'Brien is really a "Patriot-way" true believer, this is what he'll do. Seems like that's what Belichick has done in past drafts.

kiwitexansfan
01-07-2014, 10:37 PM
Agree with all your points. Especially the one about parlaying that #1 pick into more picks. If O'Brien is really a "Patriot-way" true believer, this is what he'll do. Seems like that's what Belichick has done in past drafts.

When has Belichek been picking at 1:1?

Talent differential at 1:1 would be much greater than at 1:28 or whatever the Patriots normally pick at.

76Texan
01-08-2014, 10:18 AM
Phil Simms came from little Morehead St.
Does anybody even know of that school?

76Texan
01-08-2014, 10:43 AM
Kaepernick came from Nevada Reno.
Flacco, Rich Gannon, Scott Bruner all came from Delaware.
Ben Roethlinsger came from Miami, Ohio.
Byron Leftwich, and Chad Pennington , Marshall
Culpepper, UCF
Steve McNair, Alcorn St
Trent Differ, Freso St
Gus Frerotte, Tulsa
Jeff Blake, David Garrard, E. Carolina
Stan Humphries, Bubby Brister, Louisiana Monroe
Randall Cunningham, UNLV
Ken O'Brien, Cal - Davis
Neil Lomax, Portland
Wade Wilson, Texas A&M Commerce
Eric Hipple, Utah State
Gary Hogeboom, Central Michigan

How many of those schools does an average NFL know of?

And I mean, Baylor. How many people outside of Texas know about it until RGIII?
Even people inside Texas?

76Texan
01-08-2014, 10:55 AM
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/41220138

Small-school QBs in the NFL.

ArlingtonTexan
01-08-2014, 11:06 AM
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/41220138

Small-school QBs in the NFL.

A couple of years back, I saw something from a scout that said smaller school QBs have the advantage throwing into smaller windows and having to deal with more pressure since their teammates are not as physically dominate.

76Texan
01-08-2014, 11:11 AM
A couple of years back, I saw something from a scout that said smaller school QBs have the advantage throwing into smaller windows and having to deal with more pressure since their teammates are not as physically dominate.

Some of them, I agree; but I would think there are others that play on superior teams.

On another note, here's one more article about small school quarterbacks; it's an old one, but still interesting:

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-12-04/sports/sp-545_1_quarterbacks

The Pencil Neck
01-08-2014, 11:35 AM
A couple of years back, I saw something from a scout that said smaller school QBs have the advantage throwing into smaller windows and having to deal with more pressure since their teammates are not as physically dominate.

That's one reason I expected more from Cutler. Playing at Vandy, he wasn't playing with a team that was exactly physically dominant.

But it makes sense. Sometimes the best QB is the guy who was the guy who was having to stretch himself to make up for the deficiencies of his team. Kind of a reverse AJ McCarron.

eriadoc
01-08-2014, 11:56 AM
I'm a UH guy. I don't care if Keenum is the QB or not. I care that the TEXANS have a good QB. UH is already working on their next one, so whatever Keenum does or doesn't do is only of concern to me insofar as the Texans are concerned. But I will say this:

Keenum was at the helm for 8 losses (well, 2 of those were only a half, so however you want to consider that, I guess. The Texans average margin of loss in those games was 6.375 points. Schaub was at the helm for 6 losses (plus 2 where he came on in relief and threw a game ending pick and another that should have been). The average margin of loss for those losses was 18.33 points.

Keenum played well enough for the team to win at times, but they didn't. QBs can't do it all, especially young ones. Hell, Alex Smith put up 44 points in the playoffs and lost. C'est la vie.

But whatever happens with Keenum happens. As long as the Texans get a good QB, I don't care. I just happen to think that Keenum could be a QB that develops into something if a team gives him a chance. He was always going to be a developmental project anyway.

thunderkyss
01-08-2014, 08:45 PM
That's one reason I expected more from Cutler. Playing at Vandy, he wasn't playing with a team that was exactly physically dominant.


Or Yates at UNC


But it makes sense. Sometimes the best QB is the guy who was the guy who was having to stretch himself to make up for the deficiencies of his team. Kind of a reverse AJ McCarron.

I'm checking out McCarron now. He doesn't look too bad to me. Sure, he's got talent on his team... so do we. & while Bridgewater may not have a lot of talent around him, his recievers did a heck of a job, with some insane catches, & mad YAC.

Rockville
01-08-2014, 10:39 PM
In my opinion, with the new HC, Keenum will be on the outside looking in. Like it or not, Keenum is a Kubiak guy, just like the other QBs currently on the roster. Unless there is already a stud QB on the roster (of course we know there isn't), a new HC will want to get his guy on the field. Whether he gets him through the draft, free agency, or a trade (more than likely a combination of these), he'll want him on the field as soon as he can get him ready. He has something to prove now, which is winning football games, and not a year or two from now, given the owner seems to believe the team is loaded and ready.

If a recent frame of reference is needed, look no further than Harbaugh in SF. Alex Smith was a play or two away from the SB in 2011. He started 2012 well, got hurt, and never saw the field again. Why? Harbaugh couldn't wait to get his guy on the field.

It's true the team played bad while Keenum was starting. But there is enough game film on his QB play for the new HC to know he'd have to invest a lot of time and work to develop. Time and work he'll invest in his own draft pick more than likely.

But at the end of the day, who knows. It'll definitely be interesting to see how things play out moving forward.

Sigma
01-09-2014, 05:04 PM
The moment I saw this I knew I had to post it somewhere here, but I don't want to open a Schaub thread just for this video.

enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT52hREAf18

PapaL
01-09-2014, 05:13 PM
The moment I saw this I knew I had to post it somewhere here, but I don't want to open a Schaub thread just for this video.

enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT52hREAf18

How well can Jeremy Lin throw a football? Is he open to wearing #6?

legacy_gt
01-13-2014, 12:32 AM
i'll trust our new coach who's going to be play qb. nobody on here knows better at evaluating a qb. with that, I wouldn't be surprised if he decided in the end to develop and stick with keenum while they draft for defense and o line with another young later round qb. nobody knows at this point.

ObsiWan
01-14-2014, 08:25 PM
When has Belichek been picking at 1:1?

Talent differential at 1:1 would be much greater than at 1:28 or whatever the Patriots normally pick at.

I've seen Belichick trade completely out of the first round. If he thought he could swindle... errr... trade that 1-1 pick for more picks He would.

Let me ask you this:
Don't you think Belichick could trade back to saaay 8-12 (just to pick a number) from 1-1 and still get the guy he wanted that fit his scheme? I do.

As you said yourself, the Pats are used to mining talent (that perpetually keeps them in the playoff hunt) waaaaay late in the first round; usually back at #26 to 30-something. Getting a pick at 8-12 would absolutely be ice cream and cake to Belichick. And that's not counting the extra picks he swindled ....errr negotiated for during the trade.