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thunderkyss
12-07-2013, 03:51 PM
What are our options?

If we invest our 1st rounder on a QB, what's it look like in the second?

Any interesting FAs coming up?

Brennan & Quiz.... are they in the mix?

bhsman
12-07-2013, 03:56 PM
If we go with Clowney, I take a second round OT and a third round QB, swapping 3rd and 2nd as necessary. If we go with Bridgewater, I'd like to trade up and grab Brandon Schefft if he's not falling to the #33 spot.

PhilpW
12-07-2013, 04:01 PM
I believe (hope) the zone blocking scheme used now is history with our next head coach.

Bleed_Blu_Red
12-07-2013, 04:05 PM
I take Bridgewater in the first. If there isn't a OT/OG they like in the 2nd or even 3rd hit the D, then let Quesenberry battle it out with Williams I personally like Ques to win a starting spot next yr. here is a link for top olineman FA's next yr.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2014/fa/ol.html

welsh texan
12-07-2013, 04:21 PM
The inclusion of wade smith in that link causes distrust on my part.

Doc seems to think we'd be foolish to rely on Brennan hitting anywhere near his potential given his injury.

I like the idea of quiz to take over at LG, and draft another RT, who can swing, if he gets beat out by Harris then we have our swing so we aren't reliant on Harris to backup brown at LT.

I'm a little worried about Myers at C in anything other than a zone scheme, he doesn't take on DL in our scheme he's all about the second level which may cause huge issues, worried he could look just like he did the forst couple of years after he became the starter.

Is Ben jones really an option at C? Not sure we've seen much of him at that position and thought he was only so-so at guard last season and obv got beaten out this year.

Going back to wade smith, I believe he has a reasonable cap hit which were offloading this offseason which might make us a player in FA on the oline.

Dishman
12-07-2013, 04:26 PM
I'm a little worried about Myers at C in anything other than a zone scheme, he doesn't take on DL in our scheme he's all about the second level which may cause huge issues, worried he could look just like he did the forst couple of years after he became the starter.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/973602/myersragdoll-o.gif

The Pencil Neck
12-07-2013, 04:27 PM
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/973602/myersragdoll-o.gif

That will always haunt me with Myers. That was painful to watch.

steelbtexan
12-07-2013, 04:29 PM
What are our options?

If we invest our 1st rounder on a QB, what's it look like in the second?

Any interesting FAs coming up?

Brennan & Quiz.... are they in the mix?

For me the 1st pick would be Clowney

2nd QB

3rd OT Morgan Moses.

Brisco_County
12-07-2013, 04:30 PM
This is what I posted in the thread about the PFF offensive line ratings.

I'm fully convinced that McNair (and Smith by proxy) intends to draft Jake Matthews. Not only does it address our biggest need, but bringing the Matthews family back to Houston further legitimizes the club among fans. You can't discount the marketing value of a draft pick sometimes. It's true that you don't take an RT that high, but they'll move him to LT in a year or two.

I think Duane Brown will be ready for RT in a couple of years. We'll take a guard in 2 or 3 depending on draft depth.

Brisco_County
12-07-2013, 04:32 PM
That will always haunt me with Myers. That was painful to watch.

Myers could be Superbowl MVP and still never live down that moment. It ranks up there with Rosencopter despite being way less consequential.

Bleed_Blu_Red
12-07-2013, 04:34 PM
I'm with you Wade Smith is gone after this yr and maybe Meyers. I was upset with the Williams Pick due to his injury history, I personally like Jones if we put him at C. The oline for me would be Dbo,Jones,Meyers,Brooks,Ques if we didn't get a olineman in the draft. If we do I put the oline as Dbo,Ques,Jones,Brooks,Rookie.

steelbtexan
12-07-2013, 04:36 PM
I'm with you Wade Smith is gone after this yr and maybe Meyers. I was upset with the Williams Pick due to his injury history, I personally like Jones if we put him at C. The oline for me would be Dbo,Jones,Meyers,Brooks,Ques if we didn't get a olineman in the draft. If we do I put the oline as Dbo,Ques,Jones,Brooks,Rookie.

Why not draft the highest rated OG in the 2nd and keep Ques at RT?

Bleed_Blu_Red
12-07-2013, 04:41 PM
Why not draft the highest rated OG in the 2nd and keep Ques at RT?

That's what I want to do draft Teddy put Ques at RT. I believe that will happen and we get a G to replace Smith in the 2nd or maybe trade back into the first rnd for Antonio Richardson for RT.

bhsman
12-07-2013, 04:42 PM
This is what I posted in the thread about the PFF offensive line ratings.



I think Duane Brown will be ready for RT in a couple of years. We'll take a guard in 2 or 3 depending on draft depth.

We aren't going to draft a right tackle in the top 5 over a franchise QB or blue-chip pass rusher.

Playoffs
12-07-2013, 05:07 PM
Everything depends on who the next OC is...

If we switch from ZBS there will be significant turnover.

On performance alone, we need a new LG & RT.

Quessenberry can play, but he has to adjust his body. I'm not sure he's more than a G, though.

I just don't know about Brennan Williams. He may be too injured. He may want to go straight to WWF?

TheIronDuke
12-07-2013, 06:45 PM
We aren't going to draft a right tackle in the top 5 over a franchise QB or blue-chip pass rusher.

Not to mention going right back and picking more o line in 2 or 3. The o line needs some addressing but we've got way more pressing needs on defense.

SchaubApologist
12-07-2013, 07:22 PM
Move quessenberry to LG, and draft future RT at 2.1 & hope brennan williams is healthy enough to compete for RT w the new 2nd round rookie.

This draft is verrrrrrrry deep in Tackles, so we can get a real good one 2.1

Marcus
12-07-2013, 07:22 PM
Trade down all the way out of the first round, and get a boatload of seconds.

I'm sick of hearing this "we've got way too much talent" blah blah.

SchaubApologist
12-07-2013, 07:25 PM
Trade down all the way out of the first round, and get a boatload of seconds.

I'm sick of hearing this "we've got way too much talent" blah blah.

lol no.

CloakNNNdagger
12-07-2013, 08:36 PM
Everything depends on who the next OC is...

If we switch from ZBS there will be significant turnover.

On performance alone, we need a new LG & RT.

Quessenberry can play, but he has to adjust his body. I'm not sure he's more than a G, though.

I just don't know about Brennan Williams. He may be too injured. He may want to go straight to WWF?

Lots of cheeseburgers for whomever we keep and bigger stronger for whomever we seek.

badboy
12-07-2013, 09:44 PM
I'm with you Wade Smith is gone after this yr and maybe Meyers. I was upset with the Williams Pick due to his injury history, I personally like Jones if we put him at C. The oline for me would be Dbo,Jones,Meyers,Brooks,Ques if we didn't get a olineman in the draft. If we do I put the oline as Dbo,Ques,Jones,Brooks,Rookie.What history are you referring to? He tore his labrum and missed 4 games his last season and was healthy when he showed for training camp.

Bleed_Blu_Red
12-07-2013, 10:04 PM
From what I remember He had a questionable knee thru college just never serious enough to where he needed surgery or needed to sit out games. Plus the microsurgery he got on the knee during training camp isn't the knee that gave him trouble in college.

Wolf6151
12-07-2013, 11:49 PM
I'm hoping that Quessenberry's broken foot has healed, and that he has spent the past few months and next offseason in the weightroom getting bigger and stronger. I look forward to him batteling for a starting position at either LG or RT. I'm not counting on Brennan Williams for anything and we may never see a starting snap from him ever. I also think the Texans should take the best OT at the top of the 2nd round or trade up to the late 1st if a good one falls. With a new QB on the way we've got to solidify and protect our investment.

thunderkyss
12-08-2013, 10:30 AM
I'm hoping that Quessenberry's broken foot has healed....

I'm hoping they lied their as5es off & were just didn't want to use up a roster spot.

Honoring Earl 34
12-08-2013, 10:40 AM
I would rather have Jackson or Richardson in the 2nd or 3rd than hope Q or Jones is the answer . :voodoo:

Marshall
12-08-2013, 03:29 PM
These are the players in jeopardy due to Cap:

1. Schaub $4M cap relief and reduces long term cap restrictions to sign Watt to 2015 extension.

2. Owen Daniel $4.5M. Unfortunately, too much time on the bench for his salary.

3. Daniel Manning $4.5M. This is likely the last resort salary cap cut.

4. I earlier had Ed Reed, but he's already gone.

Other personnel could be cut, but won't offer significant cap help after replacement cost is factored in.

Cushing, Brown and Hopkins are safe because of of cap issues.

amazing80
12-08-2013, 03:34 PM
These are the players in jeopardy due to Cap:

1. Schaub $4M cap relief and reduces long term cap restrictions to sign Watt to 2015 extension.

2. Owen Daniel $4.5M. Unfortunately, too much time on the bench for his salary.

3. Daniel Manning $4.5M. This is likely the last resort salary cap cut.

4. I earlier had Ed Reed, but he's already gone.

Other personnel could be cut, but won't offer significant cap help after replacement cost is factored in.

Cushing, Brown and Hopkins are safe because of of cap issues.

Id prefer to extend manning, thus creating about 1.5 million in cap space this season....and I would consider cutting or trading Jjo.....but we better have a plan to get another good corner here....

infantrycak
12-08-2013, 03:34 PM
Cushing, Brown and Hopkins are safe because of of cap issues.

They are safe because their play merits it.

Bleed_Blu_Red
12-08-2013, 03:38 PM
They are safe because their play merits it.

Agreed that is just stupid to think we would cut any of those 3.

amazing80
12-08-2013, 03:39 PM
They are safe because their play merits it.

Not to mention we get no relief in cutting them. It would actually cost us money (big money) to cut any of them.

Bleed_Blu_Red
12-08-2013, 03:43 PM
Id prefer to extend manning, thus creating about 1.5 million in cap space this season....and I would consider cutting or trading Jjo.....but we better have a plan to get another good corner here....

Idk about extending Manning but keeping him yes I can live with a Duo of Dman and Swearinger. Now to Jjoe I think we keep him and Try for Justin Gilbert in the 2nd if there is no OG/OT the Texans like because Cb help is a must.

leebigeztx
12-08-2013, 06:20 PM
I would've played Ben Jones at lg from the get go and from what I saw in camp ,Quess should've been the rt. Quessenbury is gonna be a good rt. Great balance and feet,mean streak.

Rey
12-08-2013, 09:08 PM
I keep seeing people talking about how it's a must we grab 1 or even 2 Olinemen early and I couldn't disagree with that more.

Yeah if they are clearly the bpa, sure, but oline is not as in bad of shape as folks make it seem like IMO. We have some good young players, I think Ryan Harris is serviceable. I with FA's and what we currently have we can be ok.

This is not me saying DONT pick OL early in the draft, I just don't think it's so crucial that we do so meanwhile passing on, IMO, two of the biggest issues on this team outside of QB.

We absolutely have to fix this secondary and this pass rush. I don't know if we have any good pass rushers on this team. Coaches refuse to play anyone besides the guys who aren't getting it done....btw, small rant...I hope that this next coaching staff is not like this one where they don't play/keep guys who show more than guys who are starters. Kubiak drove me nuts with that and wade does too. Give guys a chance. We have to get better at player evaluation.

But yeah..we need to fix this defense something serious. Lots of suck on that side of the ball.

JB
12-08-2013, 09:26 PM
I keep seeing people talking about how it's a must we grab 1 or even 2 Olinemen early and I couldn't disagree with that more.

Yeah if they are clearly the bpa, sure, but oline is not as in bad of shape as folks make it seem like IMO. We have some good young players, I think Ryan Harris is serviceable. I with FA's and what we currently have we can be ok.

This is not me saying DONT pick OL early in the draft, I just don't think it's so crucial that we do so meanwhile passing on, IMO, two of the biggest issues on this team outside of QB.

We absolutely have to fix this secondary and this pass rush. I don't know if we have any good pass rushers on this team. Coaches refuse to play anyone besides the guys who aren't getting it done....btw, small rant...I hope that this next coaching staff is not like this one where they don't play/keep guys who show more than guys who are starters. Kubiak drove me nuts with that and wade does too. Give guys a chance. We have to get better at player evaluation.

But yeah..we need to fix this defense something serious. Lots of suck on that side of the ball.


^^^ This

Scoring points has not been so much the issue (unless we're playing Jax) but haven't been able to stop anyone

steelbtexan
12-08-2013, 09:32 PM
I keep seeing people talking about how it's a must we grab 1 or even 2 Olinemen early and I couldn't disagree with that more.

Yeah if they are clearly the bpa, sure, but oline is not as in bad of shape as folks make it seem like IMO. We have some good young players, I think Ryan Harris is serviceable. I with FA's and what we currently have we can be ok.

This is not me saying DONT pick OL early in the draft, I just don't think it's so crucial that we do so meanwhile passing on, IMO, two of the biggest issues on this team outside of QB.

We absolutely have to fix this secondary and this pass rush. I don't know if we have any good pass rushers on this team. Coaches refuse to play anyone besides the guys who aren't getting it done....btw, small rant...I hope that this next coaching staff is not like this one where they don't play/keep guys who show more than guys who are starters. Kubiak drove me nuts with that and wade does too. Give guys a chance. We have to get better at player evaluation.

But yeah..we need to fix this defense something serious. Lots of suck on that side of the ball.

You aren't going to be able to do all of that in 1 draft and add a QB.

This is why I would like to fix the OL/DL this yr and switch to a 4-3 after drafting Clowney. If you do this there wont be enough picks to fix the secondary.

Scooter
12-08-2013, 09:51 PM
We absolutely have to fix this secondary and this pass rush.

i agree, but i'd take the top tackle in the first and essentially finish the offense by plugging the only real hole (depending on what happens at QB). then you can spend the entire rest of the draft going BPA on defense. it's much easier to do that than to hope to land a starter at a specific position later on ... IMO. of course if we finish 1st drafting a tackle might be overreaching, but in that scenario i'd hope to trade down and follow the path.

beerlover
12-08-2013, 09:59 PM
Tennessee will probably make a coaching change, if so our new coach might consider Bruce Matthews as new OL coach? I feel there is plenty of talent here already, don't forget two young tackles are returning 3rd rd. pick Brennan Williams & 6th rd. David Quessenberry.

Hervoyel
12-08-2013, 11:31 PM
Tennessee will probably make a coaching change, if so our new coach might consider Bruce Matthews as new OL coach? I feel there is plenty of talent here already, don't forget two young tackles are returning 3rd rd. pick Brennan Williams & 6th rd. David Quessenberry.

I'm actually hoping that Tennessee does kick Munchak and his staff to the curb so we can bring Munch and Matthews back here to help build the offensive line. I'd be very surprised if these two men couldn't coach up an OL.

Norg
12-09-2013, 02:39 AM
im not the GM so I don't waste my time wit dis and apperantly rick smith does not either MUHAHAHAHAHA

TheMatrix31
12-09-2013, 03:35 AM
Trade down all the way out of the first round, and get a boatload of seconds.

I'm sick of hearing this "we've got way too much talent" blah blah.

Agree with trading down, not out of the round but if we don't like anyone at the top then let's not force it. Trade down and pick up some gold later.

But I have a problem with the second part of your post. Well, we have a ton of STARTING talent. But we don't have a ton of depth. Since our team is cursed with injuries, we don't have depth. Bolster the depth. Our team has a ****load of talent, but we're shallow.

Rey
12-09-2013, 07:35 AM
i agree, but i'd take the top tackle in the first and essentially finish the offense by plugging the only real hole (depending on what happens at QB). then you can spend the entire rest of the draft going BPA on defense. it's much easier to do that than to hope to land a starter at a specific position later on ... IMO. of course if we finish 1st drafting a tackle might be overreaching, but in that scenario i'd hope to trade down and follow the path.

Only way I'm taking OL in the first is if I feel they are bpa.

I wouldn't force an OL pick. I think there are other options to solidify that spot.

HOU-TEX
12-09-2013, 09:04 AM
All depends what scheme the new coach wants to run. I think a couple guys were going to be replaced even if Kubiak stuck around. Smith and Newton have been horrible this season in the ZBS. I think DB and Brooks could easily make the transition to a power scheme. Quess looked good in camp, but I'm not certain where he'd fit quite yet. Who knows about this B. Williams cat.

Personally, and this should be a different thread, but I'm more worried about the defense (as usual). Will we stay with the 3-4? Or go with the 4-3? I think we've got the personnel for both, but prefer the 3-4. That said, if Zimmer came in here with his 4-3 I'm pretty sure I wouldn't complain.

Thorn
12-09-2013, 02:09 PM
I'm actually hoping that Tennessee does kick Munchak and his staff to the curb so we can bring Munch and Matthews back here to help build the offensive line. I'd be very surprised if these two men couldn't coach up an OL.

I'm sure Titan fans would trade them both to us for cheap right now. LOL

thunderkyss
12-09-2013, 04:05 PM
I would've played Ben Jones at lg from the get go and from what I saw in camp ,Quess should've been the rt. Quessenbury is gonna be a good rt. Great balance and feet,mean streak.

I'd have put Brooks at LG. He & Brown would have been gelling 4 weeks ago. Converting on third & 1 wouldn't have been a problem. Scoring in the Red Zone wouldn't have been a problem.

thunderkyss
12-09-2013, 04:13 PM
^^^ This

Scoring points has not been so much the issue (unless we're playing Jax) but haven't been able to stop anyone

Scoring no.... being able to run the ball & eat up the clock, I think that's been our biggest issue. Keep the other team off the field, chew up the clock, let Watt & Smith rest. Then they're better able to force a 3 & out, rinse & repeat.



A dominate running game would have helped Case a whole lot more than it helped Tj.

EllisUnit
12-15-2013, 08:23 PM
A good kick in the ass. These are supposed to be professional players and coaches. We are getting smoked in every phase of the game, and what do the coaches do ? Nothing they just stand around looking at eachother, how about hold players accountable. What i saw today was the most pathetic performance i have seen from the texans in A LONG TIME.

Wade is not the answer at head coach, case is not the answer at QB. Do we have talent ? Hell yeah we have talent, but they arent inspired. The coaches arent putting players in a position to win. I see a lot of people here saying we need to rebuild. I just dont see it.

We need a coach who can win with what we have, one who players will give 100 percent for. As of now this is a joke, today is the first time i have ever turned the TV off before the game was over. And it was a bad feeling. We are at a crucial point for this franchise. Either Mcnair makes a bold move and gets a young fresh creative mind. Or he goes with a safe pick, wade, smith gruden and we are stuck in prolific NFL hell for the next decade. The choice is urs Mcnair.

Thorn
12-15-2013, 08:29 PM
....an enema

Playoffs
12-15-2013, 08:31 PM
...a new start.

Double Barrel
12-15-2013, 08:34 PM
..to be flushed.

JB
12-15-2013, 08:36 PM
all of the above

texanhead08
12-15-2013, 08:41 PM
OG,TE,WR, OT, DT,DE, OLB,ILB,CB,S,QB, K, and coaches....did i leave anything out.

Carr Bombed
12-15-2013, 08:44 PM
A Heart.

beerlover
12-15-2013, 08:48 PM
Better Leadership top down :polevault:

Playoffs
12-15-2013, 08:51 PM
...1st overall pick in the 2015 NFL Draft.

JB
12-15-2013, 09:44 PM
OG,TE,WR, OT, DT,DE, OLB,ILB,CB,S,QB, K, and coaches....did i leave anything out.

RB, new uniforms and a witch doctor

dalemurphy
12-15-2013, 09:55 PM
What are our options?

If we invest our 1st rounder on a QB, what's it look like in the second?

Any interesting FAs coming up?

Brennan & Quiz.... are they in the mix?

Issue: RT, LG-

Duane Brown, Myers, Brooks are all plus players, IMO... I think Ben Jones is marginal depth (probably better if we move away from the ZBS)

I think Quizz is, at least, a competitor at either LG or RT to start next year. Brennan Williams knee health means that they should not count on him for anything in the off-season.

I would like to see the Texans grab a quality veteran capable of starting but affordable enough to be depth on the line and then spend one pick in the first four rounds addressing the line, at the least.

BigBull
12-15-2013, 10:11 PM
...1st overall pick in the 2015 NFL Draft.


As nice as that pick might be in 2015 I don't think I could keep my sanity through another season like they're currently having.


Sent from the future...

thunderkyss
12-16-2013, 07:47 AM
Issue: RT, LG-

Duane Brown, Myers, Brooks are all plus players, IMO... I think Ben Jones is marginal depth (probably better if we move away from the ZBS)


In all honesty, I felt better about the OL yesterday than any other part of the team. I know there were a lot of free blitzers, but I don't know how they're "supposed" to block those. I don't know what the schemes & calls were. They looked like they were doing what they were supposed to be doing.

Even the sack given up for a safety by Brown.... he did his job & Case ran into a sack. I know, I know, play to the whistle & all that jazz... but you're standing in the end zone when the ball is snapped. Who in the hell, but Case Keenum, is going to hold on to the ball?

But still. They all seemed to handle their one on one assignments fairly well. Good enough for this league anyway. Some of their calls & blitz identifying just didn't make a lot of sense.

WolverineFan
12-16-2013, 10:44 AM
They all seemed to handle their one on one assignments fairly well. Good enough for this league anyway. Some of their calls & blitz identifying just didn't make a lot of sense.

That has a lot to do with the QB, whether people want to admit it or not. It's the reason Kubiak pulled Keenum twice before he got the axe.

BullNation4Life
12-17-2013, 10:08 AM
First I would look at getting either Eugene Monroe or Michael Oher, which ever one the Ravens don't keep, and making them the starting RT. Baltimore won't be able to keep both.

then I look at the draft picks from last year, Quessenberry or Williams, and see which one can replace Wade Smith and put the other at guard. Move Brooks, I think he was a center in college, to Center and get rid of Meyers. I want my Oline to average 310-315 lbs, forget the ZBS, its time for smash mouth running game.

THEN I look for my QB of the future...

but that is just me...

WolverineFan
12-17-2013, 11:08 AM
First I would look at getting either Eugene Monroe or Michael Oher, which ever one the Ravens don't keep, and making them the starting RT. Baltimore won't be able to keep both.

then I look at the draft picks from last year, Quessenberry or Williams, and see which one can replace Wade Smith and put the other at guard. Move Brooks, I think he was a center in college, to Center and get rid of Meyers. I want my Oline to average 310-315 lbs, forget the ZBS, its time for smash mouth running game.

THEN I look for my QB of the future...

but that is just me...

Brooks played OG and OT in college. IIRC, he never played Center. I wouldn't play him at Center either. He is a pure mauler at OG and you don't take a guy who has the power to block DT's 1-on-1 and move him to C.

I agree about finding a vet O-Lineman to bring in and I do think Quessenberry can win the LG job. I was very high on him coming out last year and thought he would be the steal of the draft being taken that late.

BullNation4Life
12-17-2013, 03:20 PM
Brooks played OG and OT in college. IIRC, he never played Center. I wouldn't play him at Center either. He is a pure mauler at OG and you don't take a guy who has the power to block DT's 1-on-1 and move him to C.

I agree about finding a vet O-Lineman to bring in and I do think Quessenberry can win the LG job. I was very high on him coming out last year and thought he would be the steal of the draft being taken that late.

Ah ok, I know one of the O-lineman that was playing Guard, played Center in college.

Man if they could get Monroe away from Baltimore and put him on the RT, you have Pro-Bowl caliber bookend Tackles and build inward from there.

WolverineFan
12-17-2013, 03:25 PM
Ah ok, I know one of the O-lineman that was playing Guard, played Center in college.

Man if they could get Monroe away from Baltimore and put him on the RT, you have Pro-Bowl caliber bookend Tackles and build inward from there.

Jones is the one who played Center in college.

And yes, if you land a FA OT, then you can help solidify the biggest weakness on the O-Line and can use your #1 draft pick on another position like pass rusher or QB.

steelbtexan
12-17-2013, 04:53 PM
Jones is the one who played Center in college.

And yes, if you land a FA OT, then you can help solidify the biggest weakness on the O-Line and can use your #1 draft pick on another position like pass rusher or QB.

It would have to be a vet minimum RT. Would you bring Winston back? I personally think that ship has sailed.

WolverineFan
12-17-2013, 04:56 PM
It would have to be a vet minimum RT. Would you bring Winston back? I personally think that ship has sailed.

I won't even start naming names because 1) I'm not clear on the cap situation for next year and 2) We don't know who the HC will be.

Winston is certainly an upgrade over Newton so I'd take him if it came down to that.

thunderkyss
12-17-2013, 05:05 PM
It would have to be a vet minimum RT. Would you bring Winston back? I personally think that ship has sailed.

Why?

We're going to have money from letting Schaub walk alone. Wade Smith will also be off the books & we've still got other options..... Danieal Manning, I wouldn't be surprised if we let him go, or renegotiate with him & Jjo (who had flashes of his old self Sunday).

If Rick Smith is finally allowed to put on his big boy pants, we may see a very different off-season. & yes, if we sign a respectable FA OT, I'd be a little more open to drafting a QB with that first overall, even in this draft.

Tell me honestly, didn't your backside pucker up when Duane first got hurt earlier this season?

infantrycak
12-17-2013, 05:23 PM
Why?

Because that is his story no matter what. You can bet the Texans will get multiple FA's for more than vet min. this offseason just like they went out and got Lechler last year.

thunderkyss
12-25-2013, 02:03 PM
Let's say the Texans believe Jadeveon Clowney is too good to pass up. What next?

What other needs, should they plan to address.

If you're cutting players to create cap space, who & how much?

How do you address the needs created by "creating cap space"?

CretorFrigg
12-25-2013, 02:25 PM
It's obvious I think. This team has no starting QB. There's a reason why QBs are so prized. They are the leaders on a team, and we desperately need one.

houstonspartan
12-25-2013, 02:42 PM
Lol. There's this somewhat important position called "quarterback" that needs to be addressed. We don't have one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

bhsman
12-25-2013, 02:51 PM
If the Texans go with Clowney, I could see them either trading up for a guy like Boyd, taking someone like Mettenberger in the second and having him heal, or even a third-round prospect like Morris, Fales or Murray and having them compete with Yates and Keenum. There's also the possibility of bringing in a guy like McCown for a year stopgap, especially if we take an injured/raw prospect.

2slik4u
12-25-2013, 03:07 PM
If the Texans go with Clowney, I could see them either trading up for a guy like Boyd, taking someone like Mettenberger in the second and having him heal, or even a third-round prospect like Morris, Fales or Murray and having them compete with Yates and Keenum. There's also the possibility of bringing in a guy like McCown for a year stopgap, especially if we take an injured/raw prospect.

If our drafted QB is in an actual competition with Yates or Keenum then we are screwed.

Both of those guys are worthless.

bOODRO87
12-25-2013, 03:11 PM
Let's say Clowney is as good as advertised and Watt earns his big contract. What I want to know is how can you afford to keep two top DE? That time is going to come. That's big, big money tied to the same position. Are the Texans going to "rent" Clowney during his rookie contract while hoping we win a SB with a later round QB pick? Last time I checked points win you games. You only need a defense to hold your opponent just enough to win.

Here's a thought. Maybe if the Texans actually had a competent QB to make drives last instead of 3 and outs, our defense wouldn't be so bad getting a breather here and there.

bhsman
12-25-2013, 03:41 PM
Let's say Clowney is as good as advertised and Watt earns his big contract. What I want to know is how can you afford to keep two top DE? That time is going to come. That's big, big money tied to the same position. Are the Texans going to "rent" Clowney during his rookie contract while hoping we win a SB with a later round QB pick? Last time I checked points win you games. You only need a defense to hold your opponent just enough to win.

Here's a thought. Maybe if the Texans actually had a competent QB to make drives last instead of 3 and outs, our defense wouldn't be so bad getting a breather here and there.

Wouldn't we be in a worse position if we have to pay JJ, a former number one overall QB, and still haven't fixed the pass rush?

EDIT: That isn't to say we shouldn't take a QB first or not, just that worrying about that kind of thing shouldn't be a consideration at this point.

bOODRO87
12-25-2013, 04:16 PM
Wouldn't we be in a worse position if we have to pay JJ, a former number one overall QB, and still haven't fixed the pass rush?

EDIT: That isn't to say we shouldn't take a QB first or not, just that worrying about that kind of thing shouldn't be a consideration at this point.

Well, if the QB deserves the big contract I'd say the Texans hit the jackpot. Paying two DE big money just doesn't sound like a good strategy for building a team. I think it's a stretch to say the pass rush wouldn't be fixed if Houston didn't draft Clowney. Kubiak and Wade both run out dated systems. The right coaching change could fix a lot of problems, including the pass rush. Who knows what a positive team morale could do since Kubiak and Schaub killed it.

If Houston had an encouraging situation at QB, I could get on the idea of Clowney even though I question his drive to be great. But that's not the case. Houston has absolutely no answer at QB. If they chase after a FA QB looking for his next pay day, it could blow up in their face putting them back even further. I am in no way comfortable with putting a band-aid over the QB problem. Draft the best one since you will probably never sniff a situation to draft the best one for years.

JB
12-25-2013, 04:19 PM
Draft the best one since you will probably never sniff a situation to draft the best one for years.

Yeah, the Texans tried that before and it set them back for years. There may not be a better answer in this draft than there was then.

steelbtexan
12-25-2013, 04:37 PM
Let's say Clowney is as good as advertised and Watt earns his big contract. What I want to know is how can you afford to keep two top DE? That time is going to come. That's big, big money tied to the same position. Are the Texans going to "rent" Clowney during his rookie contract while hoping we win a SB with a later round QB pick? Last time I checked points win you games. You only need a defense to hold your opponent just enough to win.

Here's a thought. Maybe if the Texans actually had a competent QB to make drives last instead of 3 and outs, our defense wouldn't be so bad getting a breather here and there.

You've gotta pay regardless.

Somehow teams like the 49ers/Lions /Bears/Packers/Bengals/Ravens/Vikings back in the day seem to be able to keep their talented DLs together and still pay top notch $$$$ to their QB's.

This is part of the problem Rick has, not being able to effectively manage the cap.

If you want to look for excuses to draft Bridgewater over Clowney/Barr etc... you're going to have to look harder than this.

bOODRO87
12-25-2013, 04:37 PM
Yeah, the Texans tried that before and it set them back for years. There may not be a better answer in this draft than there was then.

Freak situation. Carr came into a fresh expansion team made up of JAGs with horrible coaching. Has there ever been a badder situation for a #1 QB? Any pick can be a bust. If you're too scared to take the best scouted QB of the draft, don't expect much. Thankfully, the new CBA prevents teams being absolutely ruined if the first pick doesn't work out.

bOODRO87
12-25-2013, 04:43 PM
You've gotta pay regardless.

Somehow teams like the 49ers/Lions /Bears/Packers/Bengals/Ravens/Vikings back in the day seem to be able to keep their talented DLs together and still pay top notch $$$$ to their QB's.

This is part of the problem Rick has, not being able to effectively manage the cap.

If you want to look for excuses to draft Bridgewater over Clowney/Barr etc... you're going to have to look harder than this.

It is a very good debate. I'll give you that. Unless your QB magically rises to the occasion like Flacco or Eli, I just don't think two great DE will get your far in the playoffs. A Tom Brady-like quick release will send you home. I think everyone here has seen that.

steelbtexan
12-25-2013, 04:44 PM
Lol. There's this somewhat important position called "quarterback" that needs to be addressed. We don't have one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Agreed

But forcing a pick on a QB that isn't a franchise QB because you need one has proven to set this franchise back for over a decade. (Carr) There is no QB worthy of #1 in this draft. IMHO

JB
12-25-2013, 04:44 PM
You've gotta pay regardless.

Somehow teams like the 49ers/Lions /Bears/Packers/Bengals/Ravens/Vikings back in the day seem to be able to keep their talented DLs together and still pay top notch $$$$ to their QB's.

This is part of the problem Rick has, not being able to effectively manage the cap.

If you want to look for excuses to draft Bridgewater over Clowney/Barr etc... you're going to have to look harder than this.

I think if you think there is a can't miss franchise player there you have to take him. This year there is not a sure fire franchise qb there so you take a franchise player at another position.

bOODRO87
12-25-2013, 04:51 PM
Agreed

But forcing a pick on a QB that isn't a franchise QB because you need one has proven to set this franchise back for over a decade. (Carr) There is no QB worthy of #1 in this draft. IMHO

1. Why does it have to be "forcing" instead of common sense. We have no answer at QB and no money. We have a great DE already.

2. What the what? How do you know who's a franchise QB and who's not?

3. How is someone who's performance dropped and has injury history a lock at #1? Are we going by measurements now like Mario?

kiwitexansfan
12-25-2013, 05:08 PM
If our drafted QB is in an actual competition with Yates or Keenum then we are screwed.

Both of those guys are worthless.

For sure. 1st rounder or quit.

Nawzer
12-25-2013, 05:20 PM
Texans will draft a QB with their first pick. They have a chance to get a franchise caliber QB and even if he doesn't work out they have to take that risk. There's no other serious option in my mind.

thunderkyss
12-25-2013, 06:14 PM
It's obvious I think. This team has no starting QB. There's a reason why QBs are so prized. They are the leaders on a team, and we desperately need one.

So what are you saying? Hope Jay Cutler hit the market? Take a look at Josh Freeman? or hope that we can get Mettenberger later in the draft, perhaps trade up?

One option is to take Bridgewater first overall. I think we've discussed that one already. I want to know what option two is.

thunderkyss
12-25-2013, 06:37 PM
Let's say Clowney is as good as advertised and Watt earns his big contract. What I want to know is how can you afford to keep two top DE? That time is going to come. That's big, big money tied to the same position. Are the Texans going to "rent" Clowney during his rookie contract while hoping we win a SB with a later round QB pick? Last time I checked points win you games. You only need a defense to hold your opponent just enough to win.


I look at it the same as the Ben Tate/Case Keenum situation. When the time comes & we have to make that decision, we make it then, not now. Arian Foster's deal would have hurt, had Tate proved to be too valuable. But if it made sense to endure the pain for a year or two, then trade Arian... then that's what we do.

Now we're in a situation where it doesn't make sense to keep either Schaub or pay Keenum.

We can have Clowney & Watt on the cheap for the next two years. Pay Watt if his play continues to warrant it & we still got Clowney on the cheap for two more years.

None of us know what our situation with Watt will be 2 years from now. Banking on him being the 20 sack per year franchise player we want him to be is like waiting for Boscelli to suit up, Tate to stay healthy, Schaub to become clutch, or Sharpton/McCain to blossom. & those decisions are a big part of what's holding us back as an organization.


Here's a thought. Maybe if the Texans actually had a competent QB to make drives last instead of 3 and outs, our defense wouldn't be so bad getting a breather here and there.

I'm with you there. However, I want to know what our alternatives are..... how do we address the QB position if we decide to go Clowney with the first pick. Can we find a competent QB in the second? Do we trade back in the first? Do we get one in FA, or through trade?

Brandon420tx
12-25-2013, 06:49 PM
I'm still hoping for a trade back, then a trade up for Boyd

thunderkyss
12-25-2013, 08:07 PM
I'm still hoping for a trade back, then a trade up for Boyd

For this thread, we're saying the Texans take Clowney with the first overall.

That being the case, what should the next move be?

Trade back into the first for Boyd?


We'll find an RT between Ryan Harris (2 years after surgery), Newton (3rd times a charm), Brennan Williams (finally healthy, fingers crossed)? LG from Ben Jones, or the Q.

If we go to a 3-4, I think Clowney would be an OLB. If we go to the 4-3, with Reed & Mercilus providing depth..... That would be a heck of a rotation.

We'll have to look at young solid safeties in FA.

Seegara
12-25-2013, 08:40 PM
We aren't going to draft a right tackle in the top 5 over a franchise QB or blue-chip pass rusher.
If the Texan front office doesn't avail itself of this rare opportunity to draft a top QB, they continue to be crazy. Why not Derek Carr? Don't condemn him because of his brother.

Jeffcoat, not Clowney, is the top DE, and UT grads seem to do well in the NFL. But QB must be the top priority, followed by OL.

infantrycak
12-25-2013, 08:50 PM
If the Texan front office doesn't avail itself of this rare opportunity to draft a top QB, they continue to be crazy. Why not Derek Carr? Don't condemn him because of his brother.

Derek Carr shouldn't be scratched out of hand but he should have to undergo an interrogation which would make the CIA weenies at Gitmo blush before the Texans think about taking him.

Mr. White
12-25-2013, 09:04 PM
Derek Carr shouldn't be scratched out of hand but he should have to undergo an interrogation which would make the CIA weenies at Gitmo blush before the Texans think about taking him.

I have an idea how that'll shake out.

The fact that Derek already has a wife and a child is an indicator IMO that he has the same values as his brother. Good for every guy in the world, bad for a starting QB for an NFL franchise.

steelbtexan
12-25-2013, 09:06 PM
1. Why does it have to be "forcing" instead of common sense. We have no answer at QB and no money. We have a great DE already.

2. What the what? How do you know who's a franchise QB and who's not?

3. How is someone who's performance dropped and has injury history a lock at #1? Are we going by measurements now like Mario?

1.Because if you pick a QB not worthy of #1 that by definition is forcing a pick.

2. I dont know for sure, nobody does, I've watched 5-7 of TB's games over the last 2 yrs icluding the Floria bowl game and in MY opinion TB will be an Andy Dalton type QB in the NFL. Who do YOU think TB will resemble as a pro?

3. Because Clowney has played at a top level competition, drawing double teams since coming out as a much hearlded freshman. MW played on a DL at NCST with 3 1st rd draft picks. Clowney? MW was known for taking plays off his entire career.

Clowney never took plays off his 1st two yrs in college. Only after almost being garunteed to be a top 5 pick this yr before the season started and seeing his teamate (Lattimore) fall from a 1st rd pick to a 6th rd pick, Clowney decided to protect himself from injury this yr. That's human nature and I dont hold this against Clowney.

Actually Clowney and MW are nothing alike at comparable points in their career. But even if they were, I wouldn't consider picking another MW at 1-1 in this draft to be a bad pick. (But that's just me and I know that wont be a popular opinion among most posters.) Clowney has the ability to be much better than MW will ever be and has done this with bone spurs on his feet.

JCTexan
12-25-2013, 09:12 PM
For this thread, we're saying the Texans take Clowney with the first overall.

That being the case, what should the next move be?

Trade back into the first for Boyd?


We'll find an RT between Ryan Harris (2 years after surgery), Newton (3rd times a charm), Brennan Williams (finally healthy, fingers crossed)? LG from Ben Jones, or the Q.

If we go to a 3-4, I think Clowney would be an OLB. If we go to the 4-3, with Reed & Mercilus providing depth..... That would be a heck of a rotation.

We'll have to look at young solid safeties in FA.

Ok. Although I think we're a franchise QB short of being contenders, I'll play by your rules. The first thing I would do after selecting Clowney 1st overall is try to trade back into the first round (mid teens) for Blake Bortles. If he's not available there then I would try to trade into the twenties for either Derek Carr or Zach Mettenberger.

steelbtexan
12-25-2013, 09:27 PM
Ok. Although I think we're a franchise QB short of being contenders, I'll play by your rules. The first thing I would do after selecting Clowney 1st overall is try to trade back into the first round (mid teens) for Blake Bortles. If he's not available there then I would try to trade into the twenties for either Derek Carr or Zach Mettenberger.

^^^^
This

Only if they decide not to draft a QB in 2015.

Personally, I would hope that Cutler is a FA and the Texans sign him to a 3yr deal and trade up in the 2015 draft for Winston/Petty. That would give the rookies a couple of yrs to sit on the bench and learn, while Cutler/Clowney would give the Texans a better chance to win a SB than Schaub ever did. Didn't Cutler lead the Bears to a NFC Championship game 3-4 yrs ago? People severely underrate Cutler because they dont like his supposed attitude. When all Cutler does is call out slugs like Webb and answer reporters questions like, would you rather have a taller WR than Hester honestly?

bah007
12-25-2013, 09:43 PM
LOL Cutler? Seriously? The guy who has played all 16 games 3 times in 8 seasons? The guy who threw 18 INTs in his best NFL season? His career average for a season is 19 TDs-14 INTs...

At least he's a known commodity I guess. He's Romo without the toughness. But he does have a strong arm so there's that.

We're gonna go all in (it wouldn't be cheap) with a guy who's had eight years to prove his worth and hasn't, but it's not worth the risk if we do our homework and decide that we've found a QB in the first round that we like?

Texan4Ever
12-25-2013, 10:05 PM
Breaking it down by key positions I'll list some players I would consider pursuing (in no particular order):

Quarterback

1.) Josh McCown (Bears) - Only if the price is right I would consider bringing him in. Yes he had a plethora of weapons but so do we. If anything it will allow Bridgewater or whomever else we take to study the playbook and get accustomed to the NFL before taking over (a la Aaron Rogers).

Offensive Line

1.) Alex Mack (Browns) - I doubt they let him walk but if we change offensive schemes and we want to avoid having a center get B^tch#d slapped by a nose tackle then I want Mack.

2.) Jared Veldheer (Raiders) - Not the cream of the crop but better than what we have at RT and worth a look.

Linebackers

1.) Brandon Spikes (Patriots) - Serviceable ILB and would give us much needed depth.

2.) Karlos Dansby (Cardinals) - Getting up there in age but has played very well for the Cards and can provide leadership.

Cornerbacks

1.) Breant Grimes (Phins') - Solid CB who can hold his own against the best.

2.) Chris Harris (Broncos) - Solid CB...not to be confused with the other Chris Harris.

3.) Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie (Broncos) - Has been banged up but he's probably the best out of the CBs scheduled to hit FA.

Safeties

1.) TJ Ward (Browns) - Top 5 Safety IMO.

2.) Jarius Byrd (Bills) - Had a ridiculous Rookie season and is still a force to be reckoned with.


Basically I'd like to see us get aggressive in FA and pickup the best that money can get. We also need to focus on key positions of need in the draft and continue to add more depth.

If we take Clowney (and assuming we switch to a 4-3 or run a hybrid defense). I would like to see if we can get Ra'Shede Hageman if he slips out of the 1st round. He fits a 4-3 and a 3-4 and would give us some flexibility at the DL position.

Trevor Reilly is a solid option at OLB. Played in a weaker conference but Utah's been known to produce solid 3-4 OLB. What really excites me about him is his coverage skills versus TEs which is something we need.

For the RT position I like James Hurst. Played well against Clowney and although he plays the LT spot he could switch to cover the RT spot for us.

I'm still getting used to coming back to reality from my post-surgery (wisdom teeth) so I'll leave it at this.

beerlover
12-25-2013, 10:37 PM
good work across the board, rep & Merry Christmas :clap:

Norg
12-25-2013, 11:12 PM
if we go Clownley rd 1 then rd 2 I would go......

yeah I would deff go QB no question



OT I just think don't we got two young guys waiting in the wing Quesnberry and that other guy that's why I think MAybe RT isn't much has a need when compared to Guard CUz Wade smith will be gone this off season and hes a starter unless yall really like Ben jones and guard or a depth player I don't know about Cuz Brooks is on the RG

steelbtexan
12-25-2013, 11:21 PM
LOL Cutler? Seriously? The guy who has played all 16 games 3 times in 8 seasons? The guy who threw 18 INTs in his best NFL season? His career average for a season is 19 TDs-14 INTs...

At least he's a known commodity I guess. He's Romo without the toughness. But he does have a strong arm so there's that.

We're gonna go all in (it wouldn't be cheap) with a guy who's had eight years to prove his worth and hasn't, but it's not worth the risk if we do our homework and decide that we've found a QB in the first round that we like?

Using Cutler as a high end placeholder until the young QB's are ready in 2-3 yrs ala Rodgers is a bad idea?

Rushing a rookie QB, be it your dream guy Bridgewater, my guy Mettenberger or Manziel/Bortles seems like a dumb idea. (Carr)

BTW, As I've said, I dont like any of the QB's in this draft. But the ones most likely to succeed are, Mettenberger/Bortles/Bridgewater in that order.

Tell me the difference between Bridgewater and Manziel minus the 2 inches of height. Both are mobile with avg arms. Both improvise alot?

EVOLVIST
12-25-2013, 11:40 PM
1.) Clowney

2.) Kirk Cousins - Trade our 2nd rnd pick (33) for Cousins. The Nick Foles ship has sailed, but I've been saying that Foles & Cousins are practically the same guy. He needs to get the hell out of the Shanahan/Kubiak offense to thrive, even though he's still doing an adequate job. The Texans join the golden QB class of 2012 (at last), but if by some chance Cousins fails, at least you've put a small investment in a somewhat proven commodity, as opposed to a straight up rookie. It might take an extra pick somewhere along the line to get him, as long as the pick isn't too steep.

Otherwise...You got to take your shot for Bortles, Carr or Boyd. I'm thinking from Bridgewater on down there's equal value across the board...if you want to play craps, that is.

Besides, if we really fail with Cousins we'll be at the top of the heap to draft a franchise guy in 2015. Win/win...and you'll only be picking up Cousin's 4th round tab.

mussop
12-26-2013, 08:08 AM
Give me Clowney first then trade our second and next years first for Manzel. I know people would hate that but you're getting the most exciting offensive and defensive players in the entire draft.

Blake
12-26-2013, 08:31 AM
Give me Clowney first then trade our second and next years first for Manzel. I know people would hate that but you're getting the most exciting offensive and defensive players in the entire draft.

While I want Teddy 1.1, if you are going to go Clowney at least have a plan to get a top QB like you do.

Blake
12-26-2013, 08:36 AM
Derek Carr shouldn't be scratched out of hand but he should have to undergo an interrogation which would make the CIA weenies at Gitmo blush before the Texans think about taking him.

Carrs game on Saturday scratched him from my book. Besides being a Carr, he didnt do much of anything in the game that inspired me.

thunderkyss
12-26-2013, 10:33 AM
Give me Clowney first then trade our second and next years first for Manzel. I know people would hate that but you're getting the most exciting offensive and defensive players in the entire draft.

I like that, but I'm betting after the interviews a lot of teams are going to be gunning for Manziel. I bet one team will trade up to get him.

Not because of his play on the field, there are QBs with better film than Manziel. But I think they're going to find out that Johnny is one of those few QBs with the desire to be great, the talent to be great, & the moxy to do it.

bah007
12-26-2013, 10:33 AM
Give me Clowney first then trade our second and next years first for Manzel. I know people would hate that but you're getting the most exciting offensive and defensive players in the entire draft.

I really do understand where you're trying to go with this, but I still think this is just a terrible idea.

Marcus
12-26-2013, 10:47 AM
Clowney never took plays off his 1st two yrs in college. Only after almost being garunteed to be a top 5 pick this yr before the season started and seeing his teamate (Lattimore) fall from a 1st rd pick to a 6th rd pick, Clowney decided to protect himself from injury this yr. That's human nature and I dont hold this against Clowney.


I damn sure do. That little 'lack of effort' cloud will be hanging over his head forever. What makes you think he will go all out and give 100% on every play once he pockets all that guaranteed money?

'Protect himself from injury' . . what a team player. :rolleyes: Pass. If they can trade down, and he's still available . . maybe. But even then, he would still have that cloud hanging his head.

Don't think for one second that they won't be hammering him about it at the combine. He'd better be really good with his answers.

Hervoyel
12-26-2013, 10:58 AM
I think it seems pretty obvious that if Clowney is the first selection at 1-1 then the majority of posters are focused on finding a QB after that. Some want to see what's there at 2-1, others are interested in trading back up to get somebody or trading picks to get one next year. QB is the obsession and rightfully so.

If you took Matthews at 1-1 it would probably the same way.

Take Bridgewater at 1-1 and then people will start posting more divergent opinions of which way we go after that.

bah007
12-26-2013, 11:07 AM
Using Cutler as a high end placeholder until the young QB's are ready in 2-3 yrs ala Rodgers is a bad idea?

Rushing a rookie QB, be it your dream guy Bridgewater, my guy Mettenberger or Manziel/Bortles seems like a dumb idea. (Carr)

BTW, As I've said, I dont like any of the QB's in this draft. But the ones most likely to succeed are, Mettenberger/Bortles/Bridgewater in that order.

Tell me the difference between Bridgewater and Manziel minus the 2 inches of height. Both are mobile with avg arms. Both improvise alot?

Well first, the amount of money that Cutler will command on the open market means that we will have to sacrifice upgrading other positions because we won't be able to afford to. We're going to have to pay him. You realize that right?

Your grudge against anybody who likes Bridgewater is also pretty comical. Keep that up. It's fun.

I'm on record saying that I think Bridgewater is the top QB in this draft but that doesn't make him my dream guy. That would have been Luck. I've also never said anything about "rushing" a rookie QB. But at some point we will have to draft one. And if we draft one this year it will probably be Teddy, and yes, I think it should be.

As for the difference between Bridgewater and Manziel? Well, Bridgewater plays in a pro style offense where he takes traditional snaps and drops. He makes checks at the line of scrimmage. He is a very accurate passer. He is mentally prepared for the NFL game. He has also been extremely successful and productive in an offense with very little talent besides him. He is a plus athlete, but he uses his athleticism as a secondary asset.

Manziel plays in a Texas Tech/Oklahoma St/Houston/West Virgina retread offense that has never produced a NFL talent at QB. You could correctly argue that he is the most talented QB to come from this system but he is still completely unprepared for the mental part of playing QB in the NFL. He doesn't make traditional drops. He doesn't make checks at the line of scrimmage. He relies on his coaches to do literally all the mental things for him. That won't fly in the NFL. He is accurate in the sense that his completion percentage is high, but he is not exceedingly accurate in terms of putting the ball exactly where it needs to be. He relies a lot on the people around him. He has played with a ton of NFL talent surrounding him. He is a plus athlete, but relies on his athleticism too much, using it as a primary asset. He has made plays from the pocket in his career, but the great majority of his impact plays occur because of his feet, not his arm. That won't cut it in the NFL.

Marcus
12-26-2013, 11:09 AM
Give me Clowney first then trade our second and next years first for Manzel. I know people would hate that but you're getting the most exciting offensive and defensive players in the entire draft.

John McClain suggested that very same thing in today's Chronicle. I always suspected that you were him. I figured if I waited long enough, you'd eventually give yourself away.

:BananaWav

What in the world makes you think another team would be so stupid to make a trade like that?

thunderkyss
12-26-2013, 11:29 AM
Well first, the amount of money that Cutler will command on the open market means that we will have to sacrifice upgrading other positions because we won't be able to afford to. We're going to have to pay him. You realize that right?

If need be the Texans can clear almost $40MM this offseason. They most likely won't but if the right player/situation presents itself, they can do it easily without adding any more "significant" holes to the team.

Cutler is not the long term answer. But if Bob is in win now mode it is the most obvious move if Cutler hits the market. If we sign him to a 1 year deal (which I think we will) it would be unlikely that we would draft Bridgewater #1 overall, but it doesn't mean we're ignoring the QB of the future all together.

Only that Bridgewater at 1 overall doesn't fit their plans.

thunderkyss
12-26-2013, 11:36 AM
What in the world makes you think another team would be so stupid to make a trade like that?

Are you expecting Manziel to go in the first 14 picks? This years second & next years first could be worth as much as 1160 (http://walterfootball.com/draftchart.php)points. This years 14th overall is only 1100 points. Anything higher than the 14th pick & that's a very fair deal.

bah007
12-26-2013, 11:37 AM
If need be the Texans can clear almost $40MM this offseason. They most likely won't but if the right player/situation presents itself, they can do it easily without adding any more "significant" holes to the team.

Cutler is not the long term answer. But if Bob is in win now mode it is the most obvious move if Cutler hits the market. If we sign him to a 1 year deal (which I think we will) it would be unlikely that we would draft Bridgewater #1 overall, but it doesn't mean we're ignoring the QB of the future all together.

Only that Bridgewater at 1 overall doesn't fit their plans.

I agree to an extent. This team has more holes than most fans realize or want to acknowledge. Cutler won't take this team any farther than it has gone before. I would rather rebuild this thing than play around with Cutler or any other mid level QB. I understand that is ultimately up to Bob but I'm hoping he doesn't set us back even further by pretending that a FA QB is going to take us anywhere.

I would be okay with Cutler for one year. But if I'm him or his agent, I'm not signing a one year deal.

If our new staff truly does their homework and decides that our future QB isn't in this draft, then I will trust them. But I fear Bob's "win now" plan will leave us stuck in 8-8 no man's land for a few years.

The Pencil Neck
12-26-2013, 11:41 AM
Are you expecting Manziel to go in the first 14 picks? This years second & next years first could be worth as much as 1160 (http://walterfootball.com/draftchart.php)points. This years 14th overall is only 1100 points. Anything higher than the 14th pick & that's a very fair deal.

I'm expecting Bridgewater, Manziel, and Bortles to go in the top 10, personally.

And I'm expecting Hundley, Carr, and Boyd to go later in the 1st or early in the 2nd.

But that could all change after the Combine.

mussop
12-26-2013, 11:43 AM
John McClain suggested that very same thing in today's Chronicle. I always suspected that you were him. I figured if I waited long enough, you'd eventually give yourself away.

:BananaWav

What in the world makes you think another team would be so stupid to make a trade like that?

Well that would be the first thing me and Mcflame ever agreed on.

What is stupid about trading a pick in the teens for the first pick in the second round and and a future first? Of course I beleive manzel will probably go top 8 so yeh if that's the case it would take more.

bah007
12-26-2013, 11:48 AM
For the sake of the QB discussion about who will go and where, here is my best guess. I posted this in the Jake Matthews thread but it is useful here too, I think.

Bridgewater - Top 3
Bortles - Between 3-15
Mettenberger - Between 10-25
Carr - Between 10-35
Manziel - Between 15-40
McCarron - Between 30-45
Hundley - I think he goes back to school. But I think he would go in the top half of the 2nd.
Boyd - 2nd round

Everyone else is 3rd round or later. Murray may sneak into the 2nd if Hundley goes back to school.

I could see a max of three QBs going in the top 15 and four going in the top 20. Four or five total going in the first round.

Bridgewater, Bortles, and Mettenberger all as first round locks. Carr a highly likely first rounder. That's four. So five if Manziel slides in.

TheMatrix31
12-26-2013, 04:59 PM
So this moron got caught speeding 25 miles above the speed limit again today.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20131226/south-carolina-gamecocks-jadeveon-clowney-speeding.ap/?xid=si_ncaaf&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

What a ****in' idiot. I don't want anything to do with someone so dumb.

steelbtexan
12-26-2013, 06:14 PM
Well first, the amount of money that Cutler will command on the open market means that we will have to sacrifice upgrading other positions because we won't be able to afford to. We're going to have to pay him. You realize that right?

Your grudge against anybody who likes Bridgewater is also pretty comical. Keep that up. It's fun.

I'm on record saying that I think Bridgewater is the top QB in this draft but that doesn't make him my dream guy. That would have been Luck. I've also never said anything about "rushing" a rookie QB. But at some point we will have to draft one. And if we draft one this year it will probably be Teddy, and yes, I think it should be.

As for the difference between Bridgewater and Manziel? Well, Bridgewater plays in a pro style offense where he takes traditional snaps and drops. He makes checks at the line of scrimmage. He is a very accurate passer. He is mentally prepared for the NFL game. He has also been extremely successful and productive in an offense with very little talent besides him. He is a plus athlete, but he uses his athleticism as a secondary asset.

Manziel plays in a Texas Tech/Oklahoma St/Houston/West Virgina retread offense that has never produced a NFL talent at QB. You could correctly argue that he is the most talented QB to come from this system but he is still completely unprepared for the mental part of playing QB in the NFL. He doesn't make traditional drops. He doesn't make checks at the line of scrimmage. He relies on his coaches to do literally all the mental things for him. That won't fly in the NFL. He is accurate in the sense that his completion percentage is high, but he is not exceedingly accurate in terms of putting the ball exactly where it needs to be. He relies a lot on the people around him. He has played with a ton of NFL talent surrounding him. He is a plus athlete, but relies on his athleticism too much, using it as a primary asset. He has made plays from the pocket in his career, but the great majority of his impact plays occur because of his feet, not his arm. That won't cut it in the NFL.

I dont have a grudge against Bridgewater. Why is it when I say I dont think Bridgewater will be anything more than a little above avg NFL QB, Just like Manziel who I agree with alot of your analysis I have a grudge against Bridgewater.

I just dont think there's a franchise QB in this draft. Mettenberger/Bortles have the best chance to become franchise QB's. IMHO This doesn't mean I'm right, but I certainly think you can come up with something better than I hold a grudge.

We just disagree on Bridgewater in particular and reaching for a franchise QB in general. I'm a fix the trenches this yr guy and wait until next yr when the 4th best QB will be better than any QB in this draft. IMHO

I'm willing to wait a yr and you want instant gratification. I get that, it's human nature. Some say but we wont have the top pick next yr. I say you can trade up to the 7-10 range because I have the Texans picking in the 12-18 range in the 2015 draft without having to give up an arm and a leg. They could even trade down this yr say to Cleveland at #5 a 2014 3rd and a 2015 1st and have the ammunition to move up in 2015.

They could still draft a great player at 5. The difference is that YOU think Bridgewater is worthy of #1 and I dont. But I do enjoy the back and forth discussion. Just to be clear I dont hold a grudge against Bridgewater. BTW, Winston is my #1 rated QB in the 2015 draft so that angle is invalid.

bOODRO87
12-26-2013, 06:21 PM
So this moron got caught speeding 25 miles above the speed limit again today.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20131226/south-carolina-gamecocks-jadeveon-clowney-speeding.ap/?xid=si_ncaaf&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

What a ****in' idiot. I don't want anything to do with someone so dumb.

I'm sure Bob feels splendid about Clowney.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9sTqSJrm_FkrirlTpS6OpA1CMwXAnN 2wF9z4HT2HmQFRs_AhNYg

thunderkyss
12-26-2013, 09:03 PM
So this moron got caught speeding 25 miles above the speed limit again today.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20131226/south-carolina-gamecocks-jadeveon-clowney-speeding.ap/?xid=si_ncaaf&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

What a ****in' idiot. I don't want anything to do with someone so dumb.

I've watched just about every youtube video on this guy in the last 3 weeks. It's hard not to get excited about him. He's a fast twitch guy, with a very good burst. He understands & excels at making a beeline to the ball carrier once he gets a glimpse of where the ball is.

Texian
12-26-2013, 09:28 PM
I dont have a grudge against Bridgewater. Why is it when I say I dont think Bridgewater will be anything more than a little above avg NFL QB, Just like Manziel who I agree with alot of your analysis I have a grudge against Bridgewater.

I just dont think there's a franchise QB in this draft. Mettenberger/Bortles have the best chance to become franchise QB's. IMHO This doesn't mean I'm right, but I certainly think you can come up with something better than I hold a grudge.

We just disagree on Bridgewater in particular and reaching for a franchise QB in general. I'm a fix the trenches this yr guy and wait until next yr when the 4th best QB will be better than any QB in this draft. IMHO

I'm willing to wait a yr and you want instant gratification. I get that, it's human nature. Some say but we wont have the top pick next yr. I say you can trade up to the 7-10 range because I have the Texans picking in the 12-18 range in the 2015 draft without having to give up an arm and a leg. They could even trade down this yr say to Cleveland at #5 a 2014 3rd and a 2015 1st and have the ammunition to move up in 2015.

They could still draft a great player at 5. The difference is that YOU think Bridgewater is worthy of #1 and I dont. But I do enjoy the back and forth discussion. Just to be clear I dont hold a grudge against Bridgewater. BTW, Winston is my #1 rated QB in the 2015 draft so that angle is invalid.

It has nothing to do with your opinion of Bridgewater. It has everything to do with your opinion challenges people who have already made up the minds, fallen in love with Bridgewater and have already convinced themselves that Bridgewater is the Savior. They see any negative criticism as not only an attack on Teddy but them as well. All this really means is that they have bought all the ongoing media hype for the last year. Who says advertising doesn't work. As we get closer to draft day Bridgewater's stock will continue to fade. It has already started.

Texian
12-26-2013, 09:31 PM
FWIW....folks in Atlanta are convinced that Dimitroff will pull off another Julio Jones type trade to move up to get Jadevon Clowney.

bah007
12-26-2013, 09:51 PM
I dont have a grudge against Bridgewater. Why is it when I say I dont think Bridgewater will be anything more than a little above avg NFL QB, Just like Manziel who I agree with alot of your analysis I have a grudge against Bridgewater.

I just dont think there's a franchise QB in this draft. Mettenberger/Bortles have the best chance to become franchise QB's. IMHO This doesn't mean I'm right, but I certainly think you can come up with something better than I hold a grudge.

We just disagree on Bridgewater in particular and reaching for a franchise QB in general. I'm a fix the trenches this yr guy and wait until next yr when the 4th best QB will be better than any QB in this draft. IMHO

I'm willing to wait a yr and you want instant gratification. I get that, it's human nature. Some say but we wont have the top pick next yr. I say you can trade up to the 7-10 range because I have the Texans picking in the 12-18 range in the 2015 draft without having to give up an arm and a leg. They could even trade down this yr say to Cleveland at #5 a 2014 3rd and a 2015 1st and have the ammunition to move up in 2015.

They could still draft a great player at 5. The difference is that YOU think Bridgewater is worthy of #1 and I dont. But I do enjoy the back and forth discussion. Just to be clear I dont hold a grudge against Bridgewater. BTW, Winston is my #1 rated QB in the 2015 draft so that angle is invalid.

Perhaps I was too strong in my criticism. You are usually a very level headed poster. You just seem to have a particularly strong opinion on Bridgewater, which I suppose surprises me. Maybe your opinion just stands out to me because most people seem to be on board with him. Just caught off guard that you're so defiantly against him. I also don't think I've seen you post what it is you don't like about him. In any case, I didn't mean to offend you.

I'm not one for instant gratification. I want the best thing for the long term. I'm even on record saying that I don't think we need to come out of this draft with a QB. I just think that if our new staff sees one they like they should take him. It's the most important position and they don't grow on trees.

And we certainly agree on Winston.

TheMatrix31
12-27-2013, 04:29 AM
I've watched just about every youtube video on this guy in the last 3 weeks. It's hard not to get excited about him. He's a fast twitch guy, with a very good burst. He understands & excels at making a beeline to the ball carrier once he gets a glimpse of where the ball is.

Doesn't matter. Let him be good for someone else if he's gonna be good.

I don't want anyone who takes plays off or has a high potential to do something REALLY dumb to hurt the team or his career.

steelbtexan
12-27-2013, 07:24 AM
Perhaps I was too strong in my criticism. You are usually a very level headed poster. You just seem to have a particularly strong opinion on Bridgewater, which I suppose surprises me. Maybe your opinion just stands out to me because most people seem to be on board with him. Just caught off guard that you're so defiantly against him. I also don't think I've seen you post what it is you don't like about him. In any case, I didn't mean to offend you.

I'm not one for instant gratification. I want the best thing for the long term. I'm even on record saying that I don't think we need to come out of this draft with a QB. I just think that if our new staff sees one they like they should take him. It's the most important position and they don't grow on trees.

And we certainly agree on Winston.

What I dont like about him is I think his talent level is on par with Andy Dalton. Bridgewater will be a good, not great QB. Certainly he's not worthy of 1-1 and if Rick picks him, that pick will reek of desparation.

steelbtexan
12-27-2013, 07:27 AM
FWIW....folks in Atlanta are convinced that Dimitroff will pull off another Julio Jones type trade to move up to get Jadevon Clowney.

Man I hope ATL makes a move like that. A trade like that would allow the Texans to fill in most of the holes this yr and set the team up for the 2015 drafting of Winston/Petty.

PapaL
12-27-2013, 07:59 AM
Man I hope ATL makes a move like that. A trade like that would allow the Texans to fill in most of the holes this yr and set the team up for the 2015 drafting of Winston/Petty.

What team has ever filled all their holes in one year?
You can put name to a roster spot but that doesn't mean squat; ref our QB situation.

PapaL
12-27-2013, 08:01 AM
FWIW....folks in Atlanta are convinced that Dimitroff will pull off another Julio Jones type trade to move up to get Jadevon Clowney.

Source?

Marshall
12-27-2013, 08:08 AM
While I want Teddy 1.1, if you are going to go Clowney at least have a plan to get a top QB like you do.

This is the heart of the matter. Most people do not think this years QB are elite. There are many second level QBs which are nearly interchangeable and the fifth or sixth one chosen is almost as likely to be the star as the top picks.

You don't use 1-1 on second level prospects if you can get elite level trade offers and still get good at 2-1.

I'd like to point out that DEPTH is the reason this QB class is considered strong. There are only 5 teams with QB at the top of their needs list and far more good QB prospects than this.

A current QB list is:

1. Bridgewater
2. Carr
3. Manziel
4. Bortles
5. McCarron
6. Mettenberger
7. Fales
8. Smith
9. Garoppolo
10. Boyd
11. Murray
12. Miller
13. Morris

There are no shortage of good prospects and which will prove to be best is unknown.

Without a doubt there will be three or four better QB prospects next year, but I hope we won't be picking anywhere near the point they will be on the board.

Blake
12-27-2013, 08:22 AM
I agree that Clowney is really showing his lack of maturity here. Dude is on pace to be a top 3 pick and he decides that speeding (and getting caught) on multiple occasions is a good idea? He is no longer on my short list. I like football players with maturity, smarts, and accountability. Not sure that Clowney has any of those.

Blake
12-27-2013, 08:46 AM
I also don't think I've seen you post what it is you don't like about him.

That is my feeling as well. I am not seeing alot of reasoning as to why poster x y or z doesnt like Teddy B. Just that they dont like him.

You don't use 1-1 on second level prospects if you can get elite level trade offers and still get good at 2-1.

Sound logic, but moot until you find out if any QB's are "first level" prospects. In addition to discovering any available trade offers.

I'd like to point out that DEPTH is the reason this QB class is considered strong. There are only 5 teams with QB at the top of their needs list and far more good QB prospects than this.

Still, I believe every year 1 or 2 QBs rise to the top as the cream of the crop. I want the cream of the crop as a potential franchise QB. Not a nice prospect like several on your list.

Marshall
12-27-2013, 08:50 AM
I agree that Clowney is really showing his lack of maturity here. Dude is on pace to be a top 3 pick and he decides that speeding (and getting caught) on multiple occasions is a good idea? He is no longer on my short list. I like football players with maturity, smarts, and accountability. Not sure that Clowney has any of those.

If Atlanta is really hot for Clowney and might leapfrog St Louis for his services, then this might drive St Louis to swap places with Houston and make my dream of picking up their other #1 more likely. Then we could still trade with Cleveland for their 1s so they can get Bridgewater and still be in a position for elite talent at several positions including QB.

1-5, 1-15 and 1-24. Perhaps getting either Manzeil, Matthews or Barr along with the extra first round picks.

The Pencil Neck
12-27-2013, 09:46 AM
If Atlanta is really hot for Clowney and might leapfrog St Louis for his services, then this might drive St Louis to swap places with Houston and make my dream of picking up their other #1 more likely. Then we could still trade with Cleveland for their 1s so they can get Bridgewater and still be in a position for elite talent at several positions including QB.

1-5, 1-15 and 1-24. Perhaps getting either Manzeil, Matthews or Barr along with the extra first round picks.

If Rick Smith is able to pull that series of trades off AND get players who are productive, then he's a lot better at this than I suspect he is.

Texian
12-27-2013, 09:56 AM
Source?

I don't know if there is a source for general Fan sentiment. A friend of mind called to say that the general fan sentiment is for Dimitroff to trade up for Clowney. If you find this unacceptable I guess you could read the Falcon blogs, read the Falcon message boards and listen to Atlanta Sports Talk radio to find out if my friend was lying, exaggerating just a bit or was telling me what he perceived to be the fans popular opinion.

PapaL
12-27-2013, 01:35 PM
I don't know if there is a source for general Fan sentiment. A friend of mind called to say that the general fan sentiment is for Dimitroff to trade up for Clowney. If you find this unacceptable I guess you could read the Falcon blogs, read the Falcon message boards and listen to Atlanta Sports Talk radio to find out if my friend was lying, exaggerating just a bit or was telling me what he perceived to be the fans popular opinion.

You mean like the bleacher report that you scoff at? :fingergun:

nero THE zero
12-27-2013, 01:42 PM
FWIW, this afternoon on SR610 Daniel Jeremiah compared Teddy B., in terms of quality coming into the draft, to Matt Ryan and "a more polished" Ryan Tannehill.

JB
12-27-2013, 01:54 PM
FWIW, this afternoon on SR610 Daniel Jeremiah compared Teddy B., in terms of quality coming into the draft, to Matt Ryan and "a more polished" Ryan Tannehill.

Who is Daniel Jeremiah?

beerlover
12-27-2013, 01:57 PM
FWIW, this afternoon on SR610 Daniel Jeremiah compared Teddy B., in terms of quality coming into the draft, to Matt Ryan and "a more polished" Ryan Tannehill.

I heard that, not sure what to make out of it other than Jeremiah was ill prepared cause normally like his work. Look Teddy is a rhythm QB & if there is one thing Matt Ryan is not, is a rhythm QB. What I mean by that is Ryan is very mechanical in his movements, like his QB coach is in his head reminding him to keep his elbow high & tucked in, look off dbs, keep feet moving & hold finish. Teddy just lets it rip, fluid & without hesitation.

Lets not confuse athletic ability with reading coverage's ala Cam Newton when he came out, so what if it took him a couple years to develop into a complete NFL QB, point is now that he has he may now be considered among the elite in the game, don't we want someone similar? so If I were going to make a comparison between Teddy Bridgewater & somebody else, knowing no two prospects are ever exactly the same, it would be Cam Newton not Matt Ryan.

ps: not shooting the messenger, just DJ for a surprising miss on a layup :rake:

nero THE zero
12-27-2013, 02:09 PM
I heard that, not sure what to make out of it other than Jeremiah was ill prepared cause normally like his work. Look Teddy is a rhythm QB & if there is one thing Matt Ryan is not, is a rhythm QB. What I mean by that is Ryan is very mechanical in his movements, like his QB coach is in his head reminding him to keep his elbow high & tucked in, look off dbs, keep feet moving & hold finish. Teddy just lets it rip, fluid & without hesitation.

Lets not confuse athletic ability with reading coverage's ala Cam Newton when he came out, so what if it took him a couple years to develop into a complete NFL QB, point is now that he has he may now be considered among the elite in the game, don't we want someone similar? so If I were going to make a comparison between Teddy Bridgewater & somebody else, knowing no two prospects are ever exactly the same, it would be Cam Newton not Matt Ryan.

ps: not shooting the messenger, just DJ for a surprising miss on a layup :rake:

I think maybe you misunderstood the question. He was asked for a comparison in terms of quality, not in style, physical attributes or mental acuity.

nero THE zero
12-27-2013, 02:10 PM
Who is Daniel Jeremiah?

Daniel Jeremiah (http://www.nfl.com/news/author?id=09000d5d82906849) is a former scout for three different NFL teams. Most recently, he was the West Coast scout for the Philadelphia Eagles from 2010 to 2012. He previously worked as a national scout with the Cleveland Browns (2007-08) and a West Coast scout for the Baltimore Ravens (2005-06), after initially joining the team as a personnel assistant from 2003 to 2004. Jeremiah graduated in 2000 from Appalachian State, where he started at quarterback for three seasons.

Texian
12-27-2013, 03:23 PM
Who is Daniel Jeremiah?

Jeremiah is @movethesticks on twitter and a talking hairdo at NFLN. He is also a former NFL scout. It should be noted that Jeremiah had 3 different scouting jobs with 3 different teams in 6 years. On a personal note if I saw that on resume it would go straight to the trash can. Just like spelling errors on a resume.

Texian
12-27-2013, 03:51 PM
You mean like the bleacher report that you scoff at? :fingergun:

I really have no idea. Just passing along what I was hearing from someone who lives in Atlanta and is an Atlanta Falcons season ticket holder. That's why I prefaced my post with FWIW (for what it's worth)... you can take it or you an leave it.

beerlover
12-27-2013, 06:19 PM
I think maybe you misunderstood the question. He was asked for a comparison in terms of quality, not in style, physical attributes or mental acuity.

well then I guess he nailed it. both graded out 9.41 per ourlads funny, lol by that I mean Matt Ryan & Cam Newton. expect Bridgewater to grade out much higher, FWIW higher than Stafford, 9.77 or Sam Bradford, 9.78. But that really means little, what matters is where will he be graded in the pros three years from now, which again I'll come back to Newton but then who knows for sure :specnatz:

thunderkyss
12-28-2013, 03:55 AM
I heard that, not sure what to make out of it other than Jeremiah was ill prepared cause normally like his work. Look Teddy is a rhythm QB & if there is one thing Matt Ryan is not, is a rhythm QB. What I mean by that is Ryan is very mechanical in his movements, like his QB coach is in his head reminding him to keep his elbow high & tucked in, look off dbs, keep feet moving & hold finish. Teddy just lets it rip, fluid & without hesitation.


I respect your talent evaluation & this may be a thing of semantics.... but that's not a rhythm QB. Schaub is a rhythm QB. His feet & his reads are tied together. He gets the ball out on time.

I haven't seen a true rhythm QB come out of the college ranks in a long time. Most of them are one read, scramble (whether behind the LOS, or towards the chains). Some hide it better than others, but very few of them execute a 3 step drop the way it's supposed to be done.

steelbtexan
12-28-2013, 02:19 PM
What team has ever filled all their holes in one year?
You can put name to a roster spot but that doesn't mean squat; ref our QB situation.

Can you read?

I said most (Not all)

The talent in this yrs draft is at OL/DL/LB/WR.

It fits with the major needs the Texans currently have. Excluding CB/S/QB. This should be the yr the Texans should be able to fill 4 needs in the draft if they do their homework, because of the talent level of this draft and the Texans draft position, regardless of scheme.

Now can Rick Smith execute what it takes to add atleast 4 difference makers in this draft? I've got serious doubts. (Just remember nothing is ever Slck Rick's fault)

steelbtexan
12-28-2013, 02:29 PM
I agree that Clowney is really showing his lack of maturity here. Dude is on pace to be a top 3 pick and he decides that speeding (and getting caught) on multiple occasions is a good idea? He is no longer on my short list. I like football players with maturity, smarts, and accountability. Not sure that Clowney has any of those.

Speeding, Really?

What 20-25 yr old hasn't driven a car over 100 mph.

I drove my car 25 mph over the speed limit Thursday. I just didn't get caught. It seems as though A. People dont rember what it was like to be a 20 yr old. B. Are looking for any reason possible to not pick Clowney or any reason to justify picking Bridgewater.

Why? Because the Texans need a QB? The worst decision is forcing a QB at 1-1. See J.Russell/D.Carr/T.Couch etc......

Blake
12-28-2013, 04:37 PM
Speeding, Really?

What 20-25 yr old hasn't driven a car over 100 mph.

I drove my car 25 mph over the speed limit Thursday. I just didn't get caught. It seems as though A. People dont rember what it was like to be a 20 yr old. B. Are looking for any reason possible to not pick Clowney or any reason to justify picking Bridgewater.

Why? Because the Texans need a QB? The worst decision is forcing a QB at 1-1. See J.Russell/D.Carr/T.Couch etc......

Yes, Speeding, REALLLY!

I drove over 100mph once in my life. But the difference is that I was not about to be negotiating a million dollar contract depending on my draft status.

And save me the argument that taking a QB 1-1 means it is forcing it when we all value these guys differently. Every player thrives and fails for different reasons.

WolverineFan
12-28-2013, 04:40 PM
Speeding, Really?

What 20-25 yr old hasn't driven a car over 100 mph.

I drove my car 25 mph over the speed limit Thursday. I just didn't get caught. It seems as though A. People dont rember what it was like to be a 20 yr old. B. Are looking for any reason possible to not pick Clowney or any reason to justify picking Bridgewater.

Why? Because the Texans need a QB? The worst decision is forcing a QB at 1-1. See J.Russell/D.Carr/T.Couch etc......

I don't think it's the "just speeding" that irks people. He's acted immature all year and plays like he doesn't even care 50% of the time.

Marshall
12-28-2013, 04:56 PM
I don't think it's the "just speeding" that irks people. He's acted immature all year and plays like he doesn't even care 50% of the time.
While I'd prefer this 20 year old listen to competent advisers, it would be the exception rather than the rule if he actually listened. Kids usually have to make a few mistakes in order to learn. Too bad we can't look into the future and see if he grows up or stays a kid.

thunderkyss
12-28-2013, 04:58 PM
Now can Rick Smith execute what it takes to add atleast 4 difference makers in this draft? I've got serious doubts. (Just remember nothing is ever Slck Rick's fault)

2009 he got us Cushing, Barwin, Glover, & McCain.

Cushing was DROY (twice), Barwin had a great year coming off the bench. I think Glover was our best CB his rookie year & McCain also had a good rookie year.

I don't know if that fits your bill as "difference makers" but I think they all contributed very well their rookie year. I'd be thrilled if he can do that again.

2011 he got us JJ Watt, Brooks Reed, & Tj Yates... not bad, but Brooks & JJ started coming on at the end of the year & Tj did pretty good considering his playing meant we lost our starting QB (& still made the play-offs, & won a play-off game).

Hopefully some of those other picks that didn't make a difference right off will start to pay off. DeAndre had a good year, hopefully he can repeat. Swag is a player, let's just hope he hasn't earned a bad rep. Hopefully Brooks can continue to develop.

We're all hoping for Brennan & Q to be 100% healthy and pick up where they left off. Mercilus might do better in a 4-3. Hopefully Brandon Harris can finally get out of the dog house. & Crick turns into the solid player we need him to be. Garrett Graham & I like Ryan Griffin, but we need someone better than OD was.

WolverineFan
12-28-2013, 05:13 PM
While I'd prefer this 20 year old listen to competent advisers, it would be the exception rather than the rule if he actually listened. Kids usually have to make a few mistakes in order to learn. Too bad we can't look into the future and see if he grows up or stays a kid.

Agreed. I think his knucklehead antics just scare a lot of guys because they don't want to waste this #1 pick. We need a QB, but a lot of people don't see a QB worth the #1 pick and the guy who is touted as the most talented guy in the draft has been acting like an idiot for the last 5 months.

bah007
12-28-2013, 05:22 PM
Here's the crazy thing. Back in August, Clowney was the unanimous top talent in this draft. It wasn't even a debate. He was the surefire #1 pick. Things have changed, obviously.

drs23
12-28-2013, 06:29 PM
...

We're all hoping for Brennan & Q to be 100% healthy and pick up where they left off.

Where exactly did Williams "leave off"? He only played what? 3 snaps in camp?

PapaL
12-28-2013, 07:35 PM
Where exactly did Williams "leave off"? He only played what? 3 snaps in camp?

This made me laugh.

thunderkyss
12-28-2013, 10:29 PM
Where exactly did Williams "leave off"? He only played what? 3 snaps in camp?

I'm anxiously awaiting snap #4... I honestly don't want to reach with that #1 pick. I want them to take the BPA period. A healthy Brennan Williams would make us less likely to "need" an OT

bhsman
12-29-2013, 01:01 AM
I don't think it's the "just speeding" that irks people. He's acted immature all year and plays like he doesn't even care 50% of the time.

A ton of people have pointed this out as being a misconception.

Uncle Rico
12-29-2013, 11:26 AM
Go with Clowney and make sure you have your lawyers retainer up to date and that your bailbondsman is on speed dial.

beerlover
12-29-2013, 11:28 AM
Go with Clowney and make sure you have your lawyers retainer up to date and that your bailbondsman is on speed dial.

you sound very...... experienced in such matters :whip:

nero THE zero
12-30-2013, 10:11 AM
well then I guess he nailed it. both graded out 9.41 per ourlads funny, lol by that I mean Matt Ryan & Cam Newton. expect Bridgewater to grade out much higher, FWIW higher than Stafford, 9.77 or Sam Bradford, 9.78. But that really means little, what matters is where will he be graded in the pros three years from now, which again I'll come back to Newton but then who knows for sure :specnatz:

Is that on a scale of 10?

Playoffs
01-02-2014, 01:01 PM
2014 NFL Draft: Scout compares Jadeveon Clowney to Randy Moss

By Dane Brugler | NFLDraftScout.com Senior Analyst (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-draft-scout/24394842/scout-perspective-clowney-makes-it-official-will-enter-2014-nfl-draft)
“He's a modern day Randy Moss,” said an AFC East scout on Clowney. “J.C. doesn't have the same type of criminal background as Randy did when he was his age, but the dependence on natural talent and problematic effort concerns are very similar. Difference is, Clowney won't fall out of the top-seven like Randy did.”

The “effort” concerns don't exist because his statistics dipped in 2013 compared to last season, but rather because he appeared tentative and fatigued too often during his junior year. Was he playing not to get hurt or are there legitimate effort concerns?

“In high school, he was the best player on the field. Same in the SEC,” the scout added. “But he needs to realize that won't be the case in the league. If he wants to have a career longer than a few seasons, the kid needs to wake up, add some glass to his diet and understand that it'll take a lot more work during the week.”

Playoffs
01-02-2014, 01:22 PM
Better bet: Dominant DE or top QB? (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10048168/is-jadeveon-clowney-teddy-bridgewater-better-no-1-option-nfl-hot-read)

In the weeks leading up the 2006 NFL draft, with fans and media debating what Houston should do with the first overall pick, then-Texans general manager Charley Casserly placed a call to Mike Tannenbaum, the New York Jets' new general manager at the time. Casserly was preparing to make a critical selection for a floundering franchise and wanted to explore the possibility of a trade. But when Casserly asked Tannenbaum what he was willing to give up for the pick, he was struck by the reply. "I think you've got it backwards, Charley," Tannenbaum said. "I'm wondering what you'll give me to take that pick off your hands..."

TheIronDuke
01-02-2014, 01:24 PM
Dude is the next Aaron Curry, I want no part of Clowney at all.

Playoffs
01-02-2014, 01:25 PM
Clowney wants to put off surgery for Combine (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/cfb/131251/jadeveon-clowney)

South Carolina junior DE Jadeveon Clowney insists he does not need surgery to repair bone spurs in his foot.

"It’s not bothering me," Clowney told reporters. "The foot’s fine. Right now I am just going to go with the flow." Maybe the defensive end is certain he does not need surgery, but apparent hobbling and slowed movements show otherwise. Clowney also added he wants to participate in the Combine. "I just want to come in there and hit the Combine and do stuff nobody has ever done, run a fast 40. Just show out." Jan 2 - 1:55 PM

Texian
01-02-2014, 01:29 PM
The main reason Clowney's numbers dipped in 2014 is he was almost always double teamed on every passing down. Clowney is the best player in the 2014 NFL Draft.

Texecutioner
01-02-2014, 04:11 PM
The main reason Clowney's numbers dipped in 2014 is he was almost always double teamed on every passing down. Clowney is the best player in the 2014 NFL Draft.

Most talented. Not even close to being the best player. You are stuck in ESPN's past of "hype that became fail."

Texian
01-02-2014, 04:39 PM
Most talented. Not even close to being the best player. You are stuck in ESPN's past of "hype that became fail."

I have watched over a dozen Clowney games the last 3 years and I watch very little ESPN w/ exception of their actual sporting events. I stand by post regardless of where you think I'm stuck.

Trail.Blazr
01-02-2014, 05:41 PM
I have watched over a dozen Clowney games the last 3 years and I watch very little ESPN w/ exception of their actual sporting events. I stand by post regardless of where you think I'm stuck.

You don't stand alone. Obviously it's hard to tell how this kid will mature, but there is no question in my mind that Clowney at his best is worthy of 1.1 However as a 3-4, I'm not sure I see that fit. If Clowney was to be the Texans pick, I'm anticipating a switch back to 4-3. So, to the OP's question Clowney, then what question, I would want a DT(Hageman?) with the next pick.

Then....an OT is a must!

thunderkyss
01-02-2014, 06:05 PM
So, to the OP's question Clowney, then what question, I would want a DT(Hageman?) with the next pick.

Then....an OT is a must!

Really? When I started the thread, I figured the main reason against Clowney was that we needed a QB. So the Question was really "if we take Clowney, how do we address the QB position?"

You've used our three top picks & no QB.

Surely you plan to address the QB position in some way. McCown? Hoyer? Mallet? Keenum?

Marshall
01-02-2014, 06:10 PM
Really? When I started the thread, I figured the main reason against Clowney was that we needed a QB. So the Question was really "if we take Clowney, how do we address the QB position?"

You've used our three top picks & no QB.

Surely you plan to address the QB position in some way. McCown? Hoyer? Mallet? Keenum?

I'm not afraid to go with Keenum. But i think we can still get a decent QB in the fourth since there are only 6 teams, including us, looking for a Starting QB.

PapaL
01-02-2014, 06:13 PM
Going into the season w Keenum or Schaub as QB1 would terrify the hell out of me. I don't want a repeat of Gary/Carr situation w O'Brien. If QB isn't the #1 pick it sure as hell needs to be our next pick or some trade needs to happen.

Texian
01-02-2014, 06:15 PM
You don't stand alone. Obviously it's hard to tell how this kid will mature, but there is no question in my mind that Clowney at his best is worthy of 1.1 However as a 3-4, I'm not sure I see that fit. If Clowney was to be the Texans pick, I'm anticipating a switch back to 4-3. So, to the OP's question Clowney, then what question, I would want a DT(Hageman?) with the next pick.

Then....an OT is a must!

Hageman? Hageman? Did you say Hageman? I watched his bowl game, he looks like an OT, he plays like an OT and he's a DT. :)

Trail.Blazr
01-02-2014, 06:30 PM
Really? When I started the thread, I figured the main reason against Clowney was that we needed a QB. So the Question was really "if we take Clowney, how do we address the QB position?"

You've used our three top picks & no QB.

Surely you plan to address the QB position in some way. McCown? Hoyer? Mallet? Keenum?

I personally feel that we address the QB problem through the O-Line. I don't know what to expect out of Williams or Queesenberry return to improve things. Depending on how one would answer that, I'd be willing to change my opinion on drafting another with a 3rd.

Bottom line, I don't think our QB's are as bad as we think. :tomato:

TexansFTW
01-02-2014, 08:49 PM
Who needs a QB?? We have Schaub, Yates and Keenum! We don't need to fill that position. More pass rushers and tackles and we are basically in the super bowl! Book your ticket today.

Playoffs
01-02-2014, 10:06 PM
Clowney is a freak.

If I had Rex Ryan as a DC and Mark "Butt Fumble" Sanchez as my QB I'd still take Clowney. But you've got to have a guy who can build a fire inside the kid on your staff.

The last "freaks" were Von Miller, then Calvin Johnson for me. Doesn't happen often.

Mr teX
01-02-2014, 10:54 PM
Clowney is a freak.

If I had Rex Ryan as a DC and Mark "Butt Fumble" Sanchez as my QB I'd still take Clowney. But you've got to have a guy who can build a fire inside the kid on your staff.

The last "freaks" were Von Miller, then Calvin Johnson for me. Doesn't happen often.

But even rex ryan couldn't do anything with vernon gholston....you either have it or u dont.

Uncle Rico
01-02-2014, 11:09 PM
Can Clowney drop into pass coverage? Seems small for a 4-3 DE. I'm really intrigued to compare his combine numbers to Marios.

leebigeztx
01-02-2014, 11:20 PM
The main reason Clowney's numbers dipped in 2014 is he was almost always double teamed on every passing down. Clowney is the best player in the 2014 NFL Draft.

That's a lie. I can pull game film when he was singled up and did nothing. It wasn't even a slide protection. Whenhe was doubled,he quit.

WolverineFan
01-02-2014, 11:23 PM
Can Clowney drop into pass coverage? Seems small for a 4-3 DE. I'm really intrigued to compare his combine numbers to Marios.

6'6 270 lbs is good size for a 4-3 DE. Especially with his athleticism.

mussop
01-02-2014, 11:28 PM
That's a lie. I can pull game film when he was singled up and did nothing. It wasn't even a slide protection. Whenhe was doubled,he quit.

Do it!

dalemurphy
01-02-2014, 11:45 PM
Give me Aaron Donald in the first round if we are going to build the DL... I don't care if Todd McShay, Kiper, and company all have him as a 2nd rounder. That guys plays football!

I do not understand the Clowney hype. When was the last time a physical freak who showed inconsistent effort, focus, results was taken high in the 1st round and was not at least a mild disappointment?..

Perhaps he will slide due to concerns and then someone will get a steal. Fine. I would argue that the slide may be the trigger to motivate and focus him. Picking him #1 only reinforces that his approach was fully with merit.

steelbtexan
01-02-2014, 11:52 PM
Go with Clowney and make sure you have your lawyers retainer up to date and that your bailbondsman is on speed dial.

Tell me more about his arrest record?

steelbtexan
01-02-2014, 11:56 PM
Give me Aaron Donald in the first round if we are going to build the DL... I don't care if Todd McShay, Kiper, and company all have him as a 2nd rounder. That guys plays football!

I do not understand the Clowney hype. When was the last time a physical freak who showed inconsistent effort, focus, results was taken high in the 1st round and was not at least a mild disappointment?..

Perhaps he will slide due to concerns and then someone will get a steal. Fine. I would argue that the slide may be the trigger to motivate and focus him. Picking him #1 only reinforces that his approach was fully with merit.

He had very consistent effort until this yr when he knew he would be a top 5 pick if he never played a down. There was too much $$$$ to lose if he got hurt to give it his all this yr. I cant blame him.

steelbtexan
01-03-2014, 12:04 AM
Clowney? Dalton is your franchise then what,This thread was started by a TB fan that thinkks he's a franchise QB. LOL


Unless you're Cincy and like Dalton as your franchise QB.

No thanks

Texn4life
01-03-2014, 12:12 AM
Everything that's been posted indicates O'Brien likes big, strong QBs. I could see a situation where we draft Mettenberger with the 1st pick in the 2nd round and bring in a free agent off off the street for a year. This is if we choose the Clowney route. I'd personally prefer Aaron Murray though in the 3rd or 4th if this is the thinking because of his consistency.

leebigeztx
01-03-2014, 12:29 AM
Do it!


All you have to do is watch nc game for starters. Clemson wasn't doubling him either.

JCTexan
01-03-2014, 12:48 AM
Clowney? Dalton is your franchise then what,This thread was started by a TB fan that thinkks he's a franchise QB. LOL


Unless you're Cincy and like Dalton as your franchise QB.

No thanks

I think it's a serious question to the people wanting Clowney #1 overall. If he's taken with the pick, how would you address the QB position from that point on? I'm against taking Clowney at 1.1, but if he's the guy I would then hope the Texans trade back into the first round for a QB they covet like Blake Bortles or Derek Carr.

bhsman
01-03-2014, 01:01 AM
All you have to do is watch nc game for starters. Clemson wasn't doubling him either.

Let's test that theory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnnTNVWK0lg):

0:24 - Chipped by the running back while being blocked by LT, is still a half-second away from sacking the QB

1:01 - Double-teamed by RT and RG, splits the double team and forces the QB to throw it away

1:23 - Double-teamed by C and LG, splits double team and gets in QB's face who is able to check it down at the last second

1:37 - Double-teamed by LT and LG, does not break free but the play is stuffed at or just behind the line of scrimmage by another player

1:47 - Clowney is too aggressive and is offsides, but on the replay you see both the LT and LG face him at the same time

2:14 - Chipped by RB in addition to LT blocking him

2:23 - Swims past LT and is immediately chipped by the RB

2:31 - Swims past LT, is immediately chipped by RB, still chases down QB from behind after forcing him to run away rather than pass

3:19 - Chipped by RB while being blocked by RT, dropped back before rushing up the middle, but got caught in the slog of players and the QB was able to get away

4:59 - Is being blocked by LT who receives help from LG, QB gets sacked from too much pressure up the middle

5:24 - Double-teamed by LT and LG; Clowney at this point looks a little fatigue but the play is made away from him, with the QB throwing to Ebron

5:32 - Clowney dashes past the RT and is immediately chipped by the RB

5:58 - Beats the RT inside too quickly for the RB to help out, who is on the other side and was expecting to help outside. After the QB makes his pass, Clowney is tackled from behind by the RT, much like how Cushing was injured against the Jets

6:55 - Swims the RT (this guy is reminding me a lot of Watt with all these damn swim moves, haha) too quickly for both the RT and RG to double-team him effectively, and the RG can only hold so much before Clowney gets a QB hit in, forcing a throw out of bounds in the red zone.

7:10 - Brushes by the RT, chipped by the RB, and gets his hand on the QB but is unable to drag him down (QB was still forced to throw it out of bounds). Notably, the camera shows Clowney bent double before and after the play, probably due to a combination of the stomach virus he had been suffering from as well as exhaustion from the game.

So while he wasn't double'd on every snap, he still garnered a significant amount of them during the UNC game. In addition, a lot of the plays he was in on usually involved running or throwing away from him, or throwing a screen over him in order to take advantage of his aggressiveness. There were a few times he was left unblocked and he either barreled into the running back or chased him down from the other side. As I mentioned earlier, Clowney had been dealing with a stomach virus prior to this game.

In addition, because of the cut-up nature of that youtube link, without watching the full game would I know the context of every snap, such as whether Clowney had been resting after a long South Carolina drive or with little rest. Brett Kollmann (http://www.battleredblog.com/2013/12/18/5222864/2014-nfl-draft-making-the-case-for-jadaveon-clowney) goes into a similar analysis for Clowney's game against Tennessee, which I would highly recommend reading.

All you have to do is watch nc game for starters.

So maybe you don't know what you're talking about?

steelbtexan
01-03-2014, 01:06 AM
Let's test that theory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnnTNVWK0lg):

0:24 - Chipped by the running back while being blocked by LT, is still a half-second away from sacking the QB

1:01 - Double-teamed by RT and RG, splits the double team and forces the QB to throw it away

1:23 - Double-teamed by C and LG, splits double team and gets in QB's face who is able to check it down at the last second

1:37 - Double-teamed by LT and LG, does not break free but the play is stuffed at or just behind the line of scrimmage by another player

1:47 - Clowney is too aggressive and is offsides, but on the replay you see both the LT and LG face him at the same time

2:14 - Chipped by RB in addition to LT blocking him

2:23 - Swims past LT and is immediately chipped by the RB

2:31 - Swims past LT, is immediately chipped by RB, still chases down QB from behind after forcing him to run away rather than pass

3:19 - Chipped by RB while being blocked by RT, dropped back before rushing up the middle, but got caught in the slog of players and the QB was able to get away

4:59 - Is being blocked by LT who receives help from LG, QB gets sacked from too much pressure up the middle

5:24 - Double-teamed by LT and LG; Clowney at this point looks a little fatigue but the play is made away from him, with the QB throwing to Ebron

5:32 - Clowney dashes past the RT and is immediately chipped by the RB

5:58 - Beats the RT inside too quickly for the RB to help out, who is on the other side and was expecting to help outside. After the QB makes his pass, Clowney is tackled from behind by the RT, much like how Cushing was injured against the Jets

6:55 - Swims the RT (this guy is reminding me a lot of Watt with all these damn swim moves, haha) too quickly for both the RT and RG to double-team him effectively, and the RG can only hold so much before Clowney gets a QB hit in, forcing a throw out of bounds in the red zone.

7:10 - Brushes by the RT, chipped by the RB, and gets his hand on the QB but is unable to drag him down (QB was still forced to throw it out of bounds). Notably, the camera shows Clowney bent double before and after the play, probably due to a combination of the stomach virus he had been suffering from as well as exhaustion from the game.

So while he wasn't double'd on every snap, he still garnered a significant amount of them during the UNC game. In addition, a lot of the plays he was in on usually involved running or throwing away from him, or throwing a screen over him in order to take advantage of his aggressiveness. There were a few times he was left unblocked and he either barreled into the running back or chased him down from the other side. As I mentioned earlier, Clowney had been dealing with a stomach virus prior to this game.

In addition, because of the cut-up nature of that youtube link, without watching the full game would I know the context of every snap, such as whether Clowney had been resting after a long South Carolina drive or with little rest. Brett Kollmann (http://www.battleredblog.com/2013/12/18/5222864/2014-nfl-draft-making-the-case-for-jadaveon-clowney) goes into a similar analysis for Clowney's game against Tennessee, which I would highly recommend reading.



So maybe you don't know what you're talking about?


How do you think Watt would do with a plaer like this opposite him?

steelbtexan
01-03-2014, 01:08 AM
I think it's a serious question to the people wanting Clowney #1 overall. If he's taken with the pick, how would you address the QB position from that point on? I'm against taking Clowney at 1.1, but if he's the guy I would then hope the Texans trade back into the first round for a QB they covet like Blake Bortles or Derek Carr.

Trade for Mallett or draft Mettenberger at 2-1 or slight trade up to get Mettenberger,

bhsman
01-03-2014, 01:27 AM
How do you think Watt would do with a plaer like this opposite him?

Clowney had Melvin ***king Ingram across from him his Freshman year and got 9 sacks; you tell me. :swatter:

leebigeztx
01-03-2014, 02:15 AM
Clowney had Melvin ***king Ingram across from him his Freshman year and got 9 sacks; you tell me. :swatter:

You act like Ingram wasn't a player in college. He wasz kinda on his way until the injuries. No one will dispute clowney when he's motivated and ready to play. I for one didn't have a prblem with marios effort considering they had no one inside and a shotty back end to get the qb to hold the ball.

I've watched clowney soph yr and this year and sayinghe didn't want to get hurt is an excuse. I've seen his better games when he didn't even register a sack this year. I've also watched games when he quit on doubles and those chip by the rb weren't even real. We've seen the really good rushers disregard a chip by a rb and use it as leverage. We've seen freeney,mathis,allen and dudes like that leverage help. Most tackles will tell youthey know how they want to set and a rb or help throws them off.

Clowney is a propect no doubt. I high end one to boot, I also know that the cheifs had 3e5 sacks leading to the broncos game and peyton didn't even have to wash his uniform. I for one have watched enough of clowney to know he can play standing up with ease. I've also seen enough to know there are some other high end rush guys in the 2nd and even 3rd rd. Also there are some young guys on the come like Jason Worlids from the steelers and jerry hughes from the bills who are starting to emerge and won't cost much.

bhsman
01-03-2014, 02:21 AM
That wasn't an insult on Ingram, quite the opposite. I think putting Clowney and Watt across from/next to each other will be the best thing we could do for their respective careers. The defense, and the team by extension, will only benefit from that.

Texn4life
01-03-2014, 02:55 AM
Anyone doubting Clowney's talent or ability is crazy. He's the single best pure pass rusher I've seen coming out in at least 10 years. You can question his motor, but questioning his ability is silly. Paired up with JJ Watt they would create havoc if he plays up to his potential.

And..... thats where I stop with it. I don't know what this guy is motivated by. How great does he want to be? Does he aspire to win Championships? Hall of Fame induction? Pro Bowls? These are all questions I don't know. Thats why the Texans organization gets paid the big bucks because I'm sure they'll dig into every aspect of this kid's life and thinking. If he doesn't aspire to be one of the greatest then I would pass and wouldn't look back.

Trail.Blazr
01-03-2014, 08:38 AM
Who needs a QB?? We have Schaub, Yates and Keenum! We don't need to fill that position. More pass rushers and tackles and we are basically in the super bowl! Book your ticket today.

I understand your sarcasm, and I realize the idea of taking our existing QB's forward is a stretch and certainly against the grain of what most would want. However, I don't believe TB or anyone else in this QB draft discussion would have fared any better than what we saw in 2013. If nothing is done to improve the line, 2014 will be much of a repeat of 2013 in terms of backfield success. Whether we address the O-line needs in the draft or free agency, it can't be ignored, unless the goal is to have 1.1 in 2015 too.

I'm not against making changes in the QB roster, but contrary to your take, I do feel adding more pass rushers and tackles will have a greater overall impact than wasting 1.1 on a QB.

I also believe drafting to get to the Super Bowl in 2014 is unrealistic.

TexansFTW
01-03-2014, 08:44 AM
He had very consistent effort until this yr when he knew he would be a top 5 pick if he never played a down. There was too much $$$$ to lose if he got hurt to give it his all this yr. I cant blame him.

There will be even more money he could possibly lose if he gets hurt in a contract year, or maybe if he gets franchise tagged.

You go down that route and there will always be more money to be lost if you fear getting hurt.

I can blame him. I still like him though with that said.

I understand your sarcasm, and I realize the idea of taking our existing QB's forward is a stretch and certainly against the grain of what most would want. However, I don't believe TB or anyone else in this QB draft discussion would have fared any better than what we saw in 2013. If nothing is done to improve the line, 2014 will be much of a repeat of 2013 in terms of backfield success. Whether we address the O-line needs in the draft or free agency, it can't be ignored, unless the goal is to have 1.1 in 2015 too.

I'm not against making changes in the QB roster, but contrary to your take, I do feel adding more pass rushers and tackles will have a greater overall impact than wasting 1.1 on a QB.

That's fine, we disagree. I believe that IR guys and guys like D Brown coming back healthy will improve this OLine more than adequately enough that we DON'T even need to address the line minus late round (4th+) picks.

Texian
01-03-2014, 09:02 AM
Let's test that theory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnnTNVWK0lg):

0:24 - Chipped by the running back while being blocked by LT, is still a half-second away from sacking the QB

1:01 - Double-teamed by RT and RG, splits the double team and forces the QB to throw it away

1:23 - Double-teamed by C and LG, splits double team and gets in QB's face who is able to check it down at the last second

1:37 - Double-teamed by LT and LG, does not break free but the play is stuffed at or just behind the line of scrimmage by another player

1:47 - Clowney is too aggressive and is offsides, but on the replay you see both the LT and LG face him at the same time

2:14 - Chipped by RB in addition to LT blocking him

2:23 - Swims past LT and is immediately chipped by the RB

2:31 - Swims past LT, is immediately chipped by RB, still chases down QB from behind after forcing him to run away rather than pass

3:19 - Chipped by RB while being blocked by RT, dropped back before rushing up the middle, but got caught in the slog of players and the QB was able to get away

4:59 - Is being blocked by LT who receives help from LG, QB gets sacked from too much pressure up the middle

5:24 - Double-teamed by LT and LG; Clowney at this point looks a little fatigue but the play is made away from him, with the QB throwing to Ebron

5:32 - Clowney dashes past the RT and is immediately chipped by the RB

5:58 - Beats the RT inside too quickly for the RB to help out, who is on the other side and was expecting to help outside. After the QB makes his pass, Clowney is tackled from behind by the RT, much like how Cushing was injured against the Jets

6:55 - Swims the RT (this guy is reminding me a lot of Watt with all these damn swim moves, haha) too quickly for both the RT and RG to double-team him effectively, and the RG can only hold so much before Clowney gets a QB hit in, forcing a throw out of bounds in the red zone.

7:10 - Brushes by the RT, chipped by the RB, and gets his hand on the QB but is unable to drag him down (QB was still forced to throw it out of bounds). Notably, the camera shows Clowney bent double before and after the play, probably due to a combination of the stomach virus he had been suffering from as well as exhaustion from the game.

So while he wasn't double'd on every snap, he still garnered a significant amount of them during the UNC game. In addition, a lot of the plays he was in on usually involved running or throwing away from him, or throwing a screen over him in order to take advantage of his aggressiveness. There were a few times he was left unblocked and he either barreled into the running back or chased him down from the other side. As I mentioned earlier, Clowney had been dealing with a stomach virus prior to this game.

In addition, because of the cut-up nature of that youtube link, without watching the full game would I know the context of every snap, such as whether Clowney had been resting after a long South Carolina drive or with little rest. Brett Kollmann (http://www.battleredblog.com/2013/12/18/5222864/2014-nfl-draft-making-the-case-for-jadaveon-clowney) goes into a similar analysis for Clowney's game against Tennessee, which I would highly recommend reading.



So maybe you don't know what you're talking about?

Good Job!

Dutchrudder
01-03-2014, 09:17 AM
Do people consider getting chipped by the RB a "double-team?"

Texian
01-03-2014, 09:58 AM
Do people consider getting chipped by the RB a "double-team?"

I do, it is usually part of the game plan to help disrupt a player. Without a RB/FB helping out the damage could be much worse.

YoungTexanFan
01-03-2014, 10:21 AM
Preface: I only read the last 3 pages.

Clowney is the best player in this draft. That shouldn't be a question. You can question his effort or conditioning, but you are lying to yourself if you question his talent.

With that out of the way, I take Clowney THEN I take a LB like Mosley. I don't trust Cushing to stay healthy, and even when he is healthy, there is no talent around him to make plays. Think of it like San Frans front 7. Clowney is better than Smith. Cushing is in the same league as Willis, but they have Bowman as well. Add a second top tier LB and that shores up our defense. That's before we add in the best defensive player in football. Cushing and Mosley can both play in either scheme.

Address the QB through a trade. A rookie QB isn't going to cut it, and there isn't a QB good enough to be the face of the franchise. There is no Andrew Luck. Build the defense, trade for a competent QB and dominate one side of the ball. Follow the SF and SEA models. Elite defense and competent offense. Any QB is walking into an offense with an All-Pro LT, C, WR, and RB, as well as another 1st round WR. Sure, if Andrew Luck was there this isn't a debate or a question, but there isn't a talent like that to change a franchise so you take the BPA. The BPA is Clowney.

bhsman
01-03-2014, 10:25 AM
Do people consider getting chipped by the RB a "double-team?"

I distinguishee between the to in my post; the puropose in the game (or at least the UNC game, but I've seen it occur in others) is not to take Clowney of out a play entirely but to just slow him down. If he were to play for us, he wouldn't be playing opposite Kelcy Quarles and Will Sutton (who have certainly taken advantage of all the attention Clowney receives and gotten sacks with all the single blocking they get) but JJ Watt and Whitney Mercilus.

Blake
01-03-2014, 10:28 AM
Preface: I only read the last 3 pages.

Clowney is the best player in this draft. That shouldn't be a question. You can question his effort or conditioning, but you are lying to yourself if you question his talent.

With that out of the way, I take Clowney THEN I take a LB like Mosley. I don't trust Cushing to stay healthy, and even when he is healthy, there is no talent around him to make plays. Think of it like San Frans front 7. Clowney is better than Smith. Cushing is in the same league as Willis, but they have Bowman as well. Add a second top tier LB and that shores up our defense. That's before we add in the best defensive player in football. Cushing and Mosley can both play in either scheme.

Address the QB through a trade. A rookie QB isn't going to cut it, and there isn't a QB good enough to be the face of the franchise. There is no Andrew Luck. Build the defense, trade for a competent QB and dominate one side of the ball. Follow the SF and SEA models. Elite defense and competent offense. Any QB is walking into an offense with an All-Pro LT, C, WR, and RB, as well as another 1st round WR. Sure, if Andrew Luck was there this isn't a debate or a question, but there isn't a talent like that to change a franchise so you take the BPA. The BPA is Clowney.

So what is your take on Clowney's effort over the last season? Also, what QB's do you have in mind for trade?

infantrycak
01-03-2014, 10:38 AM
Do people consider getting chipped by the RB a "double-team?"

No generally but particularly not in college where the RBs as a general matter suck at pass protection.

Preface: I only read the last 3 pages.

Clowney is the best player in this draft. That shouldn't be a question. You can question his effort or conditioning, but you are lying to yourself if you question his talent.

Everyone keeps looking only at the motivation issue but there is a very significant health issue. The guy has multiple bone spurs which require surgery. That is not minor and is not spontaneous on its own. It is a result of another underlying cause such as plantar fasciitis. PF and turf tow can rob a player of initial burst in a heartbeat, they are take a year off to rehab kind of injuries and they are frequently degenerative. Topping that off with someone who may not be all that motivated doesn't help the prognosis.

For an example people should recall, Gary Walker had 29 sacks in 4 years as 4-3 DT and then 3-4 DE. Then he got turf toe. 3 seasons and 1.5 sacks later his NFL career was over.

Honoring Earl 34
01-03-2014, 10:45 AM
No generally but particularly not in college where the RBs as a general matter suck at pass protection.



Everyone keeps looking only at the motivation issue but there is a very significant health issue. The guy has multiple bone spurs which require surgery. That is not minor and is not spontaneous on its own. It is a result of another underlying cause such as plantar fasciitis. PF and turf tow can rob a player of initial burst in a heartbeat, they are take a year off to rehab kind of injuries and they are frequently degenerative. Topping that off with someone who may not be all that motivated doesn't help the prognosis.

For an example people should recall, Gary Walker had 29 sacks in 4 years as 4-3 DT and then 3-4 DE. Then he got turf toe. 3 seasons and 1.5 sacks later his NFL career was over.

I think the motivation issue is a symptom of being just ok about playing football . To be really good in anything it's something you can't put down . It could be injury or motivation but Clowney has warts .

infantrycak
01-03-2014, 10:48 AM
I think the motivation issue is a symptom of being just ok about playing football . To be really good in anything it's something you can't put down . It could be injury or motivation but Clowney has warts .

I wasn't saying that as the injury is the cause of his apparent lack of motivation. My point is he may be the most motivated guy in the world and most talented and there is still a very serious injury concern.

Honoring Earl 34
01-03-2014, 11:00 AM
I wasn't saying that as the injury is the cause of his apparent lack of motivation. My point is he may be the most motivated guy in the world and most talented and there is still a very serious injury concern.

I've read where he missed the Kentucky game because he had bruised ribs . Nobody knew he wasn't playing until he walked out of the tunnel in street clothes .

I find all this funny because some of the same folks who bashed Mario are pro Clowney . The funnier thing to me is we expect football players to workout 24/7 while we tap on a keyboard all day . :lion:

Dutchrudder
01-03-2014, 11:18 AM
I do, it is usually part of the game plan to help disrupt a player. Without a RB/FB helping out the damage could be much worse.

Well, I don't. Double-teams are designed to pick up a player once the ball is snapped. With Clowney, you usually see it with the OT being helped by the TE or Guard. The RB is more of a second line of defense, in case a protection breaks down. He's often on the side where the defense has the most potential rushers in order to mitigate the pressure on the QB. Clowney getting to the RB level is a positive of course, because he's the first to get there, but I wouldn't consider it a "double-team" unless the RB specifically goes to him at the snap.

I distinguishee between the to in my post; the puropose in the game (or at least the UNC game, but I've seen it occur in others) is not to take Clowney of out a play entirely but to just slow him down. If he were to play for us, he wouldn't be playing opposite Kelcy Quarles and Will Sutton (who have certainly taken advantage of all the attention Clowney receives and gotten sacks with all the single blocking they get) but JJ Watt and Whitney Mercilus.

Yeah, I appreciate your work on that and making the distinctions, I'm just asking out of curiosity. People often say things like "Clowney is constantly double-teamed" or something to that effect, and I don't really think it's true, or even close to being true, but that's how the hype builds. I see the same sort of exaggeration about Watt around here too, so it's not really anything new, I just think it's people using a bit of hyperbole due to excitement. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

I think that UNC game was a good example of this. In the first half you saw a lot of Clowney getting by the OT 1v1 and making some QB pressures, so you get a lot of RB chips or cut blocks. You also see some double-teams by the guard or TE. Then in the second half, UNC adjusted their scheme and decided to just run to the opposite side of the field, or have the QB roll that direction away from Clowney's pressure, or do quick throws on a 3step drop. That was their way of taking him out of many plays, but he was still able to make some plays. By doing so, they avoid wasting a second player blocking Clowney. So while he wasn't getting double-teamed much in the 2nd half, you could see how his performance in the 1st half dictated the adjustments of UNC. That's one hell of a disruptive player for sure.

That being said, he's only worth taking 1.1 if he fits the scheme. If our Defense moves to a 4-3, I'd have no problem making him the RE across from Watt, that to me is a slam-dunk pair of DEs for the future. If we move to a traditional 3-4, then I'm a bit concerned about how he would do at OLB. Putting him on Watt's side means that teams will just need to scheme the opposite direction. Putting him at WOLB means we would need to shift someone else into coverage on their TE if he's on that side. Making him a 3-4 RDE might work, but I don't know if he would fair well in that position. He'd probably do well, but man that's a lot of resources to have in both DEs of a 3-4.

YoungTexanFan
01-03-2014, 12:11 PM
So what is your take on Clowney's effort over the last season? Also, what QB's do you have in mind for trade?

My take is that he had a big head coming off his Sophomore year and he didn't dedicate himself to offseason conditioning. He worked his way into enough shape to make an impact. Offenses changed how they approached and ran against him and added timing routes. His play is fine. I trust an NFL coaching staff, our veteran players, and a paycheck to fix that "big head" issue. The talent is there. As shown in this thread and I'm sure others, it's not like he takes plays off often. He's gassed. That's a conditioning issue. That is fixable. Easily. That has nothing to do with how he can impact the game, and that is my take on his "effort" over the last season.

As for QBs, I'd consider Mallet who is in an offensive system/culture O'Brien helped create or the Oakland QB who torched us and was at Penn State with him before the NFL. Give up a 3rd this year and a conditional pick next year for Mallet.

WolverineFan
01-03-2014, 12:39 PM
Mallett is as unproven as any of the QB's this year that nobody here wants to draft.

Texian
01-03-2014, 12:48 PM
Well, I don't. Double-teams are designed to pick up a player once the ball is snapped. With Clowney, you usually see it with the OT being helped by the TE or Guard. The RB is more of a second line of defense, in case a protection breaks down. He's often on the side where the defense has the most potential rushers in order to mitigate the pressure on the QB. Clowney getting to the RB level is a positive of course, because he's the first to get there, but I wouldn't consider it a "double-team" unless the RB specifically goes to him at the snap.

Duane Brown's first 2 years in league he was giving up double digit sacks. In his 3rd year the Texans game planned to have a TE, FB, RB help out w/ Brown's blocking assignment in passing situations usually w/ a chip block. As a result the number of sacks allowed by Brown dropped dramatically.

WolverineFan
01-03-2014, 12:50 PM
Duane Brown's first 2 years in league he was giving up double digit sacks. In his 3rd year the Texans game planned to have a TE, FB, RB help out w/ Brown's blocking assignment in passing situations usually w/ a chip block. As a result the number of sacks allowed by Brown dropped dramatically.

Which is exactly why it is utilized. It still doesn't make it a double-team.

Texian
01-03-2014, 12:56 PM
Which is exactly why it is utilized. It still doesn't make it a double-team.

Two people, that's TWO (2) people making contact to block another player is a double team. ONE player, ONE (1) player making contact to block another player is not a double team. The key here is TWO PEOPLE, That's a double team, that's a conspiracy. It's not even math, it's called simple arithmetic. :)

Dutchrudder
01-03-2014, 01:04 PM
Two people, that's TWO (2) people making contact to block another player is a double team. ONE player, ONE (1) player making contact to block another player is not a double team. The key here is TWO PEOPLE, That's a double team, that's a conspiracy. It's not even math, it's called simple arithmetic. :)

By that logic, beating the OT, the TE chip block, then going through a RB to get to the QB would be a triple team.

And to take it a step further, on some of those Johnny Football plays, defenders will make contact with 4+ blockers while chasing JFF around. Calling that blocking chaos a quadruple-team would be silly. The difference is the designed engaging blocks, versus the reaction blocks that occur based on how the play goes.

WolverineFan
01-03-2014, 01:09 PM
Two people, that's TWO (2) people making contact to block another player is a double team. ONE player, ONE (1) player making contact to block another player is not a double team. The key here is TWO PEOPLE, That's a double team, that's a conspiracy. It's not even math, it's called simple arithmetic. :)

So in a Cover 2, when the CB passes off the WR to the Safety, if the ball is thrown on a fade 1-on-1 then it was thrown into double coverage because the CB shadowed his route to start the play?

infantrycak
01-03-2014, 01:11 PM
From a coach:

"Running backs will also help the offensive lineman on the speed rusher by doing something we call chipping," Conner said. "Chipping is when a running back brushes a defensive lineman before he goes into his route. He's not responsible for blocking this guy, but he wants to chip him just enough to slow him down for the offensive lineman to block him."

Link (http://www.essortment.com/duties-running-back-hes-not-running-football-43276.html)

2012Champs
01-03-2014, 01:21 PM
Yes, Speeding, REALLLY!

I drove over 100mph once in my life. But the difference is that I was not about to be negotiating a million dollar contract depending on my draft status.

And save me the argument that taking a QB 1-1 means it is forcing it when we all value these guys differently. Every player thrives and fails for different reasons.

Ive driven over 100 mph more times than I care to remember but it did stop around my early to mid 20s. Even if I was about to sign for millions Im not sure if that would change anything. Im thankful I grew out of that habit and didnt hurt anyone before I put that one to rest

Texian
01-03-2014, 01:22 PM
So in a Cover 2, when the CB passes off the WR to the Safety, if the ball is thrown on a fade 1-on-1 then it was thrown into double coverage because the CB shadowed his route to start the play?

When Julius Peppers is fully blocked by the OT and the TE also hits him with his shoulder and knocks him off stride, how many players would Julius Pepper say blocked him? Hint: This is not a trick question. :)

Texian
01-03-2014, 01:24 PM
From a coach:



Link (http://www.essortment.com/duties-running-back-hes-not-running-football-43276.html)

Sounds like a TWO PLAYER effort.

Texian
01-03-2014, 01:26 PM
Ive driven over 100 mph more times than I care to remember but it did stop around my early to mid 20s. Even if I was about to sign for millions Im not sure if that would change anything. Im thankful I grew out of that habit and didnt hurt anyone before I put that one to rest

The male mind does not fully develop and mature until they reach the age of 27 to 30.

infantrycak
01-03-2014, 01:26 PM
Sounds like a TWO PLAYER effort.

Where only ONE is responsible for blocking the defender.

The primary responsibility of a RB or TE who chips is the route, not the block. A double team is TWO whose responsibility is blocking.

Texian
01-03-2014, 01:29 PM
So in a Cover 2, when the CB passes off the WR to the Safety, if the ball is thrown on a fade 1-on-1 then it was thrown into double coverage because the CB shadowed his route to start the play?

Where only ONE is responsible for blocking the defender.

The primary responsibility of a RB or TE who chips is the route, not the block. A double team is TWO whose responsibility is blocking.

So if two people are arguing just for the sake of arguing, how many people are arguing?

bhsman
01-03-2014, 01:32 PM
I shouldn't have typed that response in such a hurry; so many spelling errors. :strangle:

Anyways, I think Clowney could make do as a 3-4 OLB as long as he isn't asked to cover a whole lot due to his stiffness. On one snap against UNC he stood up and had great speed but the LT went at his legs and had some success slowing him down. In any case, I've grown fond of the 3-4 during Wade's tenure here but if switching to a 4-3 would be a better use of Watt and Clowney I'm all for it.

As far as injuries go I'm not too concerned with Clowney; the bone spurs will need removing but he should be fine after that. We should probably ask Doc about it for a better understanding of how it might affect him, in any case. The fact that Clowney wants to go to the Combine before getting surgery seems to speak to his willingness to prove himself.

Dutchrudder
01-03-2014, 01:42 PM
So if two people are arguing just for the sake of arguing, how many people are arguing?

And this is why I don't like you at all. I thought you mellowed out a little since you got here, but you're still acting like a child and can't have a discussion about anything without making it devolve into pointless slapfights. It's not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's trying to understand the language you are using, and presenting the opposing definitions. Simply disagreeing is not being argumentative, but you seem to have some sort of victim mentality where anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a contrarian simply because it's against you.

When you make a statement like "he's double-teamed on every passing play" that means something. If you consider contact with any two offensive players a "double-team" then I need to know that, or else you give a mischaracterization in your analysis. I read that earlier in one of your posts, and never saw that when I watched the game, so I thought you were crazy.

I think you're wrong in your definition, and I think that's important if you're going to continue to post here. But feel free to just think this is some silly waste of time discussion and we're all out to get you.

Mr teX
01-03-2014, 01:45 PM
I shouldn't have typed that response in such a hurry; so many spelling errors. :strangle:

Anyways, I think Clowney could make do as a 3-4 OLB as long as he isn't asked to cover a whole lot due to his stiffness. On one snap against UNC he stood up and had great speed but the LT went at his legs and had some success slowing him down. In any case, I've grown fond of the 3-4 during Wade's tenure here but if switching to a 4-3 would be a better use of Watt and Clowney I'm all for it.

As far as injuries go I'm not too concerned with Clowney; the bone spurs will need removing but he should be fine after that. We should probably ask Doc about it for a better understanding of how it might affect him, in any case. The fact that Clowney wants to go to the Combine before getting surgery seems to speak to his willingness to prove himself.

And as soon as a good coach sees the bolded, he's done...he wasn't asked to do much of it in college, i'd hate to have him do it alot in the NFL b/c i don't think he'd be good at. The way offenses are spreading defenses out these days, it would be nearly impossible to not have him coverage a ton. We'd see repeats of the 2012 Patriots/Texans debacles. & for a guy with injury concerns around his feet already, i'm not sure you'd want him out there covering the Graham's...or Gronkowski's.....or in 1 on 1 situations with a guy like Bush or Sproles.

Bottom line is, if we were to stay in a 3-4, i don't think he could play OLB...too big & stiff imo. Taking him would mean we'd have to switch to a 4-3 & put his ass on the line where he's comfy & we could use his athleticism in spurts and as a strength.

disaacks3
01-03-2014, 01:48 PM
i'm not sure you'd want him out there covering the Graham's...or Gronkowski's.....or in 1 on 1 situations with a guy like Bush or Sproles.

Bottom line is, if we were to stay in a 3-4, i don't think he could play OLB...too big & stiff imo. Taking him would mean we'd have to switch to a 4-3 & put his ass on the line where he's comfy & we could use his athleticism in spurts and as a strength.

I think hell froze over, I'm in full agreement with you. :fingergun:

The Pencil Neck
01-03-2014, 01:51 PM
So if two people are arguing just for the sake of arguing, how many people are arguing?

A chip block is a chip block. A double-team is a double-team. For most people, they're not the same thing.

With a chip block, the person performing the chip just brushes the player and doesn't engage in a true block. In a double-team, two players actively engage a single player.

Let's see if we can find any definitions...
[b]Double-team:[b] Two linemen ganging up on one defensive player. It’s more common on pass plays when the center and a guard work together to stop the penetration of a talented inside pass-rusher. However, the double-team also works well on running plays, especially at the point of attack or at the place where the play is designed to go. The double-team blockers attack one defender, clearing out the one player who might stop the play from working. (http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-types-of-blocks-in-american-football.html)

A chip block isn't a double-team because the one of the two offensive players does not "gang up", he just brushes by.

Texian
01-03-2014, 01:53 PM
And this is why I don't like you at all. I thought you mellowed out a little since you got here, but you're still acting like a child and can't have a discussion about anything without making it devolve into pointless slapfights. It's not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's trying to understand the language you are using, and presenting the opposing definitions. Simply disagreeing is not being argumentative, but you seem to have some sort of victim mentality where anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a contrarian simply because it's against you.

When you make a statement like "he's double-teamed on every passing play" that means something. If you consider contact with any two offensive players a "double-team" then I need to know that, or else you give a mischaracterization in your analysis. I read that earlier in one of your posts, and never saw that when I watched the game, so I thought you were crazy.

I think you're wrong in your definition, and I think that's important if you're going to continue to post here. But feel free to just think this is some silly waste of time discussion and we're all out to get you.

Lighten up francis....there comes a point when people are arguing just argue because that is their nature. Once I have said two people blocking is a double team and you say it is not I see no reason of a lengthy back and forth just because you want to be right, I see it more as we disagree. I guess you and others will want to argue this too. :)

WolverineFan
01-03-2014, 01:54 PM
And this is why I don't like you at all. I thought you mellowed out a little since you got here, but you're still acting like a child and can't have a discussion about anything without making it devolve into pointless slapfights. It's not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's trying to understand the language you are using, and presenting the opposing definitions. Simply disagreeing is not being argumentative, but you seem to have some sort of victim mentality where anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a contrarian simply because it's against you.

When you make a statement like "he's double-teamed on every passing play" that means something. If you consider contact with any two offensive players a "double-team" then I need to know that, or else you give a mischaracterization in your analysis. I read that earlier in one of your posts, and never saw that when I watched the game, so I thought you were crazy.

I think you're wrong in your definition, and I think that's important if you're going to continue to post here. But feel free to just think this is some silly waste of time discussion and we're all out to get you.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iQlN5kyhnGQ/UKnbP09vllI/AAAAAAAAAYk/iKQKIFxOdrc/s400/Hendricks+KO.gif

Marshall
01-03-2014, 02:06 PM
I shouldn't have typed that response in such a hurry; so many spelling errors. :strangle:

Anyways, I think Clowney could make do as a 3-4 OLB as long as he isn't asked to cover a whole lot due to his stiffness. On one snap against UNC he stood up and had great speed but the LT went at his legs and had some success slowing him down. In any case, I've grown fond of the 3-4 during Wade's tenure here but if switching to a 4-3 would be a better use of Watt and Clowney I'm all for it.

As far as injuries go I'm not too concerned with Clowney; the bone spurs will need removing but he should be fine after that. We should probably ask Doc about it for a better understanding of how it might affect him, in any case. The fact that Clowney wants to go to the Combine before getting surgery seems to speak to his willingness to prove himself.

I'd set up an early special combine so I could get the surgery in time for recovery by the OTAs and Training Camp.

bhsman
01-03-2014, 02:08 PM
And as soon as a good coach sees the bolded, he's done...he wasn't asked to do much of it in college, i'd hate to have him do it alot in the NFL b/c i don't think he'd be good at. The way offenses are spreading defenses out these days, it would be nearly impossible to not have him coverage a ton. We'd see repeats of the 2012 Patriots/Texans debacles. & for a guy with injury concerns around his feet already, i'm not sure you'd want him out there covering the Graham's...or Gronkowski's.....or in 1 on 1 situations with a guy like Bush or Sproles.

Bottom line is, if we were to stay in a 3-4, i don't think he could play OLB...too big & stiff imo. Taking him would mean we'd have to switch to a 4-3 & put his ass on the line where he's comfy & we could use his athleticism in spurts and as a strength.

Well, not being able to cover is not necessarily a weakness if you never need him to do it; Watt is never (or, at least, only rarely) asked to cover anyone and just rushes the passer/RB. O'Brien also made a good point that whether we stay in the 3-4 or switch to the 4-3, that ~60% of the time a defense is in a nickel or dime 4-man front anyways due to how profound the passing game has become as of late, just like you mention.

Drafting Clowney and staying in the 3-4 wouldn't preclude him from putting his hands on the ground. Any defensive coach worth his salt would find a way to use JD to the limits of his talent.

Marshall
01-03-2014, 02:08 PM
And this is why I don't like you at all. I thought you mellowed out a little since you got here, but you're still acting like a child and can't have a discussion about anything without making it devolve into pointless slapfights. It's not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's trying to understand the language you are using, and presenting the opposing definitions. Simply disagreeing is not being argumentative, but you seem to have some sort of victim mentality where anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a contrarian simply because it's against you.

When you make a statement like "he's double-teamed on every passing play" that means something. If you consider contact with any two offensive players a "double-team" then I need to know that, or else you give a mischaracterization in your analysis. I read that earlier in one of your posts, and never saw that when I watched the game, so I thought you were crazy.

I think you're wrong in your definition, and I think that's important if you're going to continue to post here. But feel free to just think this is some silly waste of time discussion and we're all out to get you.

Perhaps there should be a half block like there are half sacks.

Mr teX
01-03-2014, 02:15 PM
Well, not being able to cover is not necessarily a weakness if you never need him to do it; Watt is never (or, at least, only rarely) asked to cover anyone and just rushes the passer/RB. O'Brien also made a good point that whether we stay in the 3-4 or switch to the 4-3, that ~60% of the time a defense is in a nickel or dime 4-man front anyways due to how profound the passing game has become as of late, just like you mention.

Drafting Clowney and staying in the 3-4 wouldn't preclude him from putting his hands on the ground. Any defensive coach worth his salt would find a way to use JD to the limits of his talent.

Watt was never considered to be a candidate to be converted to an OLB though either. If Clowney is brought in and they have any ideas about possibly converting him, he will be in coverage much more than he ever was in college...even if it is only 40% of the time as O'brien says; Either that or he'll be coming in off the bench on situational pass rushing downs much like Aldon Smith is used in SF.

The question then becomes, do we have the luxury of using 1-1 on a guy who's either a project at OLB or just a situational pass rusher? Especially when we have the chance to take the best qb prospect? I say no.

bhsman
01-03-2014, 02:37 PM
Watt was never considered to be a candidate to be converted to an OLB though either. If Clowney is brought in and they have any ideas about possibly converting him, he will be in coverage much more than he ever was in college...even if it is only 40% of the time as O'brien says; Either that or he'll be coming in off the bench on situational pass rushing downs much like Aldon Smith is used in SF.

The question then becomes, do we have the luxury of using 1-1 on a guy who's either a project at OLB or just a situational pass rusher? Especially when we have the chance to take the best qb prospect? I say no.

Meh, that's why I leave the door open to him becoming a bookend 3-4 DE to Watt once he gains about 15lbs, but like I said he's such a talent that any good defensive coordinator will try and find the best use for him.

As for 1-1, who knows if McNair trades down to the Browns and grabs him at #4 overall. Assuming we aren't picking Manziel. :kitten:

mussop
01-03-2014, 06:16 PM
You guys are arguing over symantics. It's not a double team by definition but it's basically the same thing. It's a way of scheming against a player to slow him down by using two players.

Whether it's a double team or a chip the fact remains, he is being schemed against. Some quick plays only require he be slowed down. The slower developing plays require he be held up as long as possible. Either way he's requiring the efforts of more than one player to guard against him. That takes special talent. Opposing coaches wouldn't be implementing specific schemes directed at him if there wasn't a reason.

The Pencil Neck
01-03-2014, 06:28 PM
I took a look at this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnnTNVWK0lg) It's his game against UNC.

I don't see an extraordinary number of double-teams. I don't consider chips to be double-teams and I don't consider someone taking an inside rush so that he ends up being blocked by two guys a double team. To me, a double team is when they draw up the play and say "You two guys block this one guy and stay on him."

He looks very athletic. He's got some nice moves. But he doesn't look like a #1 overall monster to me.

thunderkyss
01-03-2014, 07:32 PM
That's fine, we disagree. I believe that IR guys and guys like D Brown coming back healthy will improve this OLine more than adequately enough that we DON'T even need to address the line minus late round (4th+) picks.

I think depending on unproven injured players has been a huge problem of this team in the past. We didn't draft a TE because we expected Bennie Joppru, we've held off on LB because of Darryl Sharpton & Cushing, We waited on Dunta to get healthy.

IMO, we don't need to fix the RT position, we need to fix our OL. We can hope Brennan Williams can come back healthy, then hope he is better than Derek Newton, but we don't know that he is. I want to draft a LT, we're in position to get the best one in this draft. If he's a true franchise LT, he should be able to start on the left side from day one. Doesn't mean we have to start him there, but he should be. Either way, our OL gets better. Much, much better. Not marginally better if Williams is healthy, if he's better than Newton..... & any RT we get might not be ready to start in the NFL.

We need to fix our pass rush. Jadaveon Clowney does that, even if he takes plays off. But he won't' take plays off, just like Mario didn't take plays off playing with Cushing & Watt. Even Mario didn't want to be the 3rd best player on our defense. Clowney knew he was the best player on that defense even when he took plays off.

We need to fix our QB. Like Rick said, we didn't have a viable option at the position last year. To me, that screams veteran. We'll draft a QB for our future, but not one QB projected in the first round gives me reason to believe he'll help us win more games than any other QB projected to go in the first round.

There may be two franchise LTs in this draft. Maybe two franchise pass rushers.

There may be 5 franchise QBs in this draft.

leebigeztx
01-03-2014, 07:49 PM
I took a look at this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnnTNVWK0lg) It's his game against UNC.

I don't see an extraordinary number of double-teams. I don't consider chips to be double-teams and I don't consider someone taking an inside rush so that he ends up being blocked by two guys a double team. To me, a double team is when they draw up the play and say "You two guys block this one guy and stay on him."

He looks very athletic. He's got some nice moves. But he doesn't look like a #1 overall monster to me.

That's what I was telling a poster earlier. I told him clowney didn't get doubled like they tried to say. I know what a double looks like. A lot of times, if he beat his man, someone picked him up. That's what you're suppose to do as a ol. The problem I had or have with clowney is the quit in him. I've seen him quit on doubles and chips. Being relentless with his skill can lead to a lot more impact plays. Go look at von miller,aldon smith,jared allen, robert mathis,quinn,long,watt, those guys are relentless. Your initial,secondary,and tertiary effort can yield big results.

Clowney has shown flashes when he wants to play, he also has shown to be below par when he doesn't want to play. What is he gonna do during a tough stretch and he's getting 5m?

bhsman
01-03-2014, 07:54 PM
If he is moved inside and it takes two guys to block him, it's a double team. We wouldn't put a huge guy inside at NT to garner phantom not-double teams, that's changing the definition to suit your argument.

leebigeztx
01-03-2014, 08:00 PM
I think depending on unproven injured players has been a huge problem of this team in the past. We didn't draft a TE because we expected Bennie Joppru, we've held off on LB because of Darryl Sharpton & Cushing, We waited on Dunta to get healthy.

IMO, we don't need to fix the RT position, we need to fix our OL. We can hope Brennan Williams can come back healthy, then hope he is better than Derek Newton, but we don't know that he is. I want to draft a LT, we're in position to get the best one in this draft. If he's a true franchise LT, he should be able to start on the left side from day one. Doesn't mean we have to start him there, but he should be. Either way, our OL gets better. Much, much better. Not marginally better if Williams is healthy, if he's better than Newton..... & any RT we get might not be ready to start in the NFL.

We need to fix our pass rush. Jadaveon Clowney does that, even if he takes plays off. But he won't' take plays off, just like Mario didn't take plays off playing with Cushing & Watt. Even Mario didn't want to be the 3rd best player on our defense. Clowney knew he was the best player on that defense even when he took plays off.

We need to fix our QB. Like Rick said, we didn't have a viable option at the position last year. To me, that screams veteran. We'll draft a QB for our future, but not one QB projected in the first round gives me reason to believe he'll help us win more games than any other QB projected to go in the first round.

There may be two franchise LTs in this draft. Maybe two franchise pass rushers.

There may be 5 franchise QBs in this draft.

What team in the playoffs have a franchise lt or pass rusher? I'm willing to bet there is no such thing on any of the teams in the playoffs in the afc. We regard seattle as a top defense,yet all their pass rushers are 2nd,3rd or guys they've signed. I think they have 6 guy with more than 6 sacks. Its about the collective.

There isn't 1 team in the afc playoffs with a franchise lt or rt. Again, its the line as a collection. No one complained about the line when a udfa and a 3rd rd pick was on the right side. What we do know though is 4 of the 6 qbs were drafted top 4.

thunderkyss
01-03-2014, 08:09 PM
So if two people are arguing just for the sake of arguing, how many people are arguing?

I feel totally useless in this thread.

:kitten:

pirbroke
01-03-2014, 08:16 PM
I took a look at this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnnTNVWK0lg) It's his game against UNC.

I don't see an extraordinary number of double-teams. I don't consider chips to be double-teams and I don't consider someone taking an inside rush so that he ends up being blocked by two guys a double team. To me, a double team is when they draw up the play and say "You two guys block this one guy and stay on him."

He looks very athletic. He's got some nice moves. But he doesn't look like a #1 overall monster to me.

I just watched that video also, I'm not going to get into the whole double team discussion ( both sides of that have good points ). But man he was in the backfield a lot in that game, looked pretty disruptive, stats or no stats. throws his arms and shoulders around players but doesn't look like he uses his hands much to me. nice bull rush to go with his speed. As long as the bone spurs are not going to be a long term problem or cause other problems, I think he is worth top overall. he can definitely get better with technique.

leebigeztx
01-03-2014, 08:23 PM
If he is moved inside and it takes two guys to block him, it's a double team. We wouldn't put a huge guy inside at NT to garner phantom not-double teams, that's changing the definition to suit your argument.

Imagine a pocket of 5 guys vs 4 guys. If clowney is doubled, its not after he's made his move, its as soon as the ball is hiked. If the ball is hiked,he beats the lt with an inside move,and the lg picks him up,that's not a double. That's more of a slide protection. When teams double with the lt and lg, the de is engaged at the snap.

dalemurphy
01-03-2014, 09:23 PM
He had very consistent effort until this yr when he knew he would be a top 5 pick if he never played a down. There was too much $$$$ to lose if he got hurt to give it his all this yr. I cant blame him.

Sure, it makes total sense, and I don't blame him... similarly, I can also relate to football players that tend to eat pizza and hamburgers during the off-season and take it easy instead of being militant about their diet and workout routine.

However, if I am evaluating players to join my team with a $25 million financial commitment, I'm less concerned with their ability to think/behave like Everyday Joe. Instead, I'm looking for someone with an edge, commitment, and intensity that goes beyond logical or relatable.

I do not believe there is any athlete, no matter how remarkable, that can enter the NFL and be a great player without being a harder worker than the majority of the NFL athletes. That wasn't the case 25 years ago. I guarantee you there will be a large number of athletes in this year's combine that will be in the ballpark of Clowney's power/weight/speed/quickness combination... Some of those players may be TEs, LBs, and some DEs... There will be freakishly strong Safeties that weigh 230 lbs and run sub 4.5s and RBs that do the same. I believe football intelligence, commitment, and passion are crucial for anyone to be great in the NFL today. I don't see those intangibles clearly enough to want Clowney...

The Texans will surely do their homework- talking to Clowney and his coaches. They will know much better than you or I will know. So, if they do draft him, I will be cautiously optimistic. I'm only speaking confidently about what I am confident about. Aaron Donald is going to be a great NFL DT... Though it is likely (but not certain) that the Texans could trade back and draft him, at this point, if the Texans drafted defense with pick 1.1, I would want Donald.

p.s. Check went in the mail today.

bah007
01-03-2014, 11:14 PM
Jesus H...

If you don't understand the difference between a double team and a chip block then just stop bothering with the charade that you know any damn thing about football.

There is clearly a difference between two players working a guy for the duration of a play and one guy working him as another takes a quick shot and moves on.

Yes, if he was chipped it was done as an intentionally schematic move to keep the designated player away from the ball. But it is clearly hyperbole to call it anything other than what it is.

The point is Clowney is good enough that he consistently requires extra attention.

mussop
01-03-2014, 11:17 PM
Jesus H...

If you don't understand the difference between a double team and a chip block then just stop bothering with the charade that you know any damn thing about football.

There is clearly a difference between two players working a guy for the duration of a play and one guy working him as another takes a quick shot and moves on.

Yes, if he was chipped it was done as an intentionally schematic move to keep the designated player away from the ball. But it is clearly hyperbole to call it anything other than what it is.

The point is Clowney is good enough that he consistently requires extra attention.

If that was directed at me, that is pretty much what I said.

bah007
01-03-2014, 11:19 PM
If that was directed at me, that is pretty much what I said.

Everybody in this thread knows exactly who that was directed at. The same person who is wrong nearly every time he touches a keyboard and yet consistently gets upset when he is corrected.

If you took it as meant for you then I apologize. It was not.

thunderkyss
01-03-2014, 11:32 PM
Everybody in this thread knows exactly who that was directed at. The same person who is wrong nearly every time he touches a keyboard and yet consistently gets upset when he is corrected.

If you took it as meant for you then I apologize. It was not.

Well... seeing as how I'm never wrong...


:kitten:

bah007
01-03-2014, 11:35 PM
Well... seeing as how I'm never wrong...


:kitten:

Only when we disagree :spin:

Texian
01-03-2014, 11:42 PM
Jesus H...

If you don't understand the difference between a double team and a chip block then just stop bothering with the charade that you know any damn thing about football.

There is clearly a difference between two players working a guy for the duration of a play and one guy working him as another takes a quick shot and moves on.

Yes, if he was chipped it was done as an intentionally schematic move to keep the designated player away from the ball. But it is clearly hyperbole to call it anything other than what it is.

The point is Clowney is good enough that he consistently requires extra attention.

If that was directed at me, what mussop said....and you can't correct someone if they're right. :)

Trap_Star
01-03-2014, 11:50 PM
Jesus H...

If you don't understand the difference between a double team and a chip block then just stop bothering with the charade that you know any damn thing about football.

There is clearly a difference between two players working a guy for the duration of a play and one guy working him as another takes a quick shot and moves on.

Yes, if he was chipped it was done as an intentionally schematic move to keep the designated player away from the ball. But it is clearly hyperbole to call it anything other than what it is.

The point is Clowney is good enough that he consistently requires extra attention.

yeah, he's just a queer that needs attention and people continue to give it to him.

bhsman
01-04-2014, 02:40 AM
Yeah, the point is that Clowney is very disruptive and that simply pointing to his sack numbers to the point of stubbornness is approaching intellectual dishonesty.

Uncle Rico
01-04-2014, 09:42 AM
Clowney = Jevon Kearse.

Not bad, but no LT either. I cringe when I hear generational because its such a grand claim to make when faced with the concerns.