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Lambert
12-24-2013, 01:57 AM
Stats (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=1&season=2013&seasonType=REG&experience=&Submit=Go&archive=false&d-447263-p=2&conference=null&statisticPositionCategory=LINEBACKER&qualified=true) have Burfict with 157 tackles. That's almost as many as Brooks Reed (51) Whitney Mercilus (46) and JJ (71) have all year.

How can this be?

Maybe you football experts can enlighten me.

Could it be:

A: Burfict is just that much better than Mercilus, JJ, and Brooks?

B: That something funny is going on with the stats?

eriadoc
12-24-2013, 02:33 AM
Burfict is undoubtedly better than either Mercilus or Reed, and maybe both put together. JJ Watt plays a different position and different role, so there's no comparison. And Watt is a better player anyway.

thunderkyss
12-24-2013, 08:44 AM
There's little comparison to any of them as Burfict plays in a 4-3, he's more of a true LB than our 3-4 OLBs who are more like DEs in a 4-3. Burfict played LB his whole college career. Neither Merci or Reed played a snap as LBs in college.


It is pretty sick how the Bengals found him undrafted though.

HOU-TEX
12-24-2013, 09:06 AM
Cushing would be right up there in that range had he remained healthy.

3-4 OLBs aren't comparable to ILBs or any LBs in a 4-3. And JJ's position shouldn't even be mentioned when talking about high tackle numbers.

JB
12-24-2013, 09:09 AM
Cushing would be right up there in that range had he remained healthy.

3-4 OLBs aren't comparable to ILBs or any LBs in a 4-3. And JJ's position shouldn't even be mentioned when talking about high tackle numbers.

^^^ This

It's like comparing apples and coconuts

TheIronDuke
12-24-2013, 09:10 AM
OP has a major crush on Brooke Reed and is trying to say that just because stats show Brooke as the worst 3-4 OLB in the game that he is actually good. Anyone else who's ever watched football can watch his play and look at his pathetic stats to deduce that he is just absolutely awful and is probably the worst player we have on defense.

JB
12-24-2013, 09:13 AM
OP has a major crush on Brooke Reed and is trying to say that just because stats show Brooke as the worst 3-4 OLB in the game that he is actually good. Anyone else who's ever watched football can watch his play and look at his pathetic stats to deduce that he is just absolutely awful and is probably the worst player we have on defense.


Don't know about him, but I don't have a crush on Reed. But he is not near as bad as some of you make him out to be. He does just what Wade asks him to do in his position.

TheIronDuke
12-24-2013, 09:27 AM
Don't know about him, but I don't have a crush on Reed. But he is not near as bad as some of you make him out to be. He does just what Wade asks him to do in his position.

There was a thread I started a couple of weeks ago that detailed his number of pass rushes vs number of times hitting the QB and it was terrible. The notion that Phillips is getting what he wants from Reed is false.

Here you go:

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103260&highlight=Brooks

JB
12-24-2013, 09:53 AM
There was a thread I started a couple of weeks ago that detailed his number of pass rushes vs number of times hitting the QB and it was terrible. The notion that Phillips is getting what he wants from Reed is false.

Here you go:

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103260&highlight=Brooks

This is what I was referring to

Not as much as other 3-4 teams, which is what I've been trying to point out for a while now.

Normal 3-4 teams like the 49ers, Browns, or Steelers have big bodied D-Linemen who plug gaps up front so the LB's can rush the passer.

Wade's scheme looks like a 3-4, but it's actually a 5-2. His D-Linemen rush the passer and the LB's plug gaps. In this case, Mercilus is a DE and rushes the passer and Reed is an OLB and plugs gaps (mainly being the contain guy to his side). Mercilus' #1 job is rushing the passer. Not so for Reed.

Reed rushes the passer after he has done his primary job of setting the edge and making sure he has contain on his side. Grading him the same way as you grade a pass rushing OLB like Ware or others is just misleading.

I do think he can be upgraded, but he is doing what he is coached to do.

silentassassin
12-24-2013, 10:47 AM
There's little comparison to any of them as Burfict plays in a 4-3, he's more of a true LB than our 3-4 OLBs who are more like DEs in a 4-3. Burfict played LB his whole college career. Neither Merci or Reed played a snap as LBs in college.


It is pretty sick how the Bengals found him undrafted though.

The guy was a lauded as a 1st-rd talent during his college career, but I think his on/off-field behavior and other things lead to the drop in his draft stock.

I don't think it was that the Bengals found him as much as it was them being the team most willing to take a chance on him. Still have to give them credit for that though.

thunderkyss
12-24-2013, 10:56 AM
The guy was a lauded as a 1st-rd talent during his college career, but I think his on/off-field behavior and other things lead to the drop in his draft stock.

I don't think it was that the Bengals found him as much as it was them being the team most willing to take a chance on him. Still have to give them credit for that though.

We took Sam Montgomery in the 3rd. They took this guy as an UDFA.

We're still waiting for Sharpton to come around & spent vet minimum on Joe Mays. They should get a lot of credit.




Reed rushes the passer after he has done his primary job of setting the edge and making sure he has contain on his side. Grading him the same way as you grade a pass rushing OLB like Ware or others is just misleading.

I do think he can be upgraded, but he is doing what he is coached to do.

There are situations when setting the edge is not his primary concern. When the Texans are expecting pass, he shouldn't be worried about setting the edge. 3rd & 20+ we've been in plenty of those situations & Reed still can't sniff the QB.

He's a fine football player, I'm not saying different, but he is not a pass rusher. Not in a 3-4

Playoffs
12-24-2013, 11:31 AM
Stats ...
How can this be?
Firstly, tackle statistics in the NFL are... non-standardized, to put it politely:

The NFL's Make-Believe Stat (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390444897304578044610803692432)
Even though tackle statistics are widely cited by the media and are always included in the official summaries NFL teams put out after every game, the league doesn't consider this an "official" statistic. In other words, the league doesn't verify it or take any responsibility for whether it's accurate. "The stats crews at each NFL stadium track tackle totals," a league spokesman explained.But unlike a completion or an interception—which are seldom up for dispute—tackles are granted in split-second judgment calls by a scorekeeper hired by the home team. In many cases, this decidedly analog system creates some results that leave the players scratching their helmets...

One reason I prefer ProFootballFocus (http://www.profootballfocus.com/), as they keep their own statistics watching every play on the All-22 (http://www.nfl.com/coachesfilm). And they don't "gift" tackles. For instance, if a QB trips over his shoelaces in the backfield the NFL insists on awarding a sack to the closest player(s) -- PFF doesn't do stuff like that.

So PFF's tackle statistics for the aforementioned are as follows: Burfict 111, Reed 33, Mercilus 29, and Watt 57. (And FYI, Sharpton 62, Mays 51 both playing 30-40% less)

So on to Burfict et al. It's how they're schemed/used...

Burfict 4-3 OLB spends 55% of the time in pass coverage, 36% in run defense, and just 8% in pass rush.
Play Counts
Total Run Def. Pass Rush Pass Cov. % Snaps
973 350 84 539 95.8

Reed 3-4 OLB Reed spends just 11% in pass coverage, 44% run defense, and 45% in pass rush.
Play Counts
Total Run Def. Pass Rush Pass Cov. % Snaps
972 432 434 106 97.9

Mercilus 3-4 OLB spends just 4% in pass coverage, 45% in run defense, and 51% in pass rush.
Play Counts
Total Run Def. Pass Rush Pass Cov. % Snaps
917 410 470 37 92.3


Burfict's defensive snap count is 78% higher than the next highest Cincinnati LB's, so it looks like he's more a 3-down drop/coverage "middle fielder" than what you'd expect from a typical OLB. And teams may be attacking Burfict more often.

NastyNate
12-24-2013, 04:11 PM
There's little comparison to any of them as Burfict plays in a 4-3, he's more of a true LB than our 3-4 OLBs who are more like DEs in a 4-3. Burfict played LB his whole college career. Neither Merci or Reed played a snap as LBs in college.


It is pretty sick how the Bengals found him undrafted though.

He doesn't interview well, if at all really. Most interviews in college would go along the lines of "How do you see yourself translating to the NFL?"

"Um, good."

Plus the incident where he tussled with a teammate on the sidelines didn't do him any favors. Even with all that said, my buddies can attest to how much I was screaming at the TV during the 2012 draft. Oh jesus I can feel my blood boiling again just thinking about it. He was the best linebacker talent in that class by FAR and nobody would even take a 5th or 6th round flyer on him. Instead we got... f@#king Randy Bullock and Nick Mondek. My blood boils still thinking about it.

Cincinnati has that position locked up for a long time if he stays healthy. His closing speed and instincts are insane and his 40 didn't broadcast that enough. Such a good talent. Damn you Phillips.

infantrycak
12-24-2013, 04:32 PM
He doesn't interview well, if at all really. Most interviews in college would go along the lines of "How do you see yourself translating to the NFL?"

"Um, good."

Plus the incident where he tussled with a teammate on the sidelines didn't do him any favors. Even with all that said, my buddies can attest to how much I was screaming at the TV during the 2012 draft. Oh jesus I can feel my blood boiling again just thinking about it. He was the best linebacker talent in that class by FAR and nobody would even take a 5th or 6th round flyer on him. Instead we got... f@#king Randy Bullock and Nick Mondek. My blood boils still thinking about it.

Cincinnati has that position locked up for a long time if he stays healthy. His closing speed and instincts are insane and his 40 didn't broadcast that enough. Such a good talent. Damn you Phillips.

You left out quite a bit there. In college he was a personal foul magnet to the point he was benched despite his good play, causing a loss along the way. Plus his junior season was off and he decided to go pro anyway. Those bad interviews were bad in part because he is reported to have blamed the coaches for his bad junior year. Then he was the slowest LB at the combine at a ridiculous 5.09 and was reported to have tested positive for pot. Plus there was some sort of off the field issue I can't recall. Glad to see he is turning out but you need to tack on another 31 teams along with the Texans who jointly didn't think he was worth a draft pick.

steelbtexan
12-24-2013, 06:30 PM
You left out quite a bit there. In college he was a personal foul magnet to the point he was benched despite his good play, causing a loss along the way. Plus his junior season was off and he decided to go pro anyway. Those bad interviews were bad in part because he is reported to have blamed the coaches for his bad junior year. Then he was the slowest LB at the combine at a ridiculous 5.09 and was reported to have tested positive for pot. Plus there was some sort of off the field issue I can't recall. Glad to see he is turning out but you need to tack on another 31 teams along with the Texans who jointly didn't think he was worth a draft pick.

Yep no need to take chances on troubled but talented guys in rds 5-7.

Guys I would consider taking in rds 5-7 this yr include,

Lyerla 1st rd talent, FA brain.
Dyer, Same
Crowell, Same
Seantrel Henderson

infantrycak
12-24-2013, 06:43 PM
Yep no need to take chances on troubled but talented guys in rds 5-7.

Quite the opposite. I advocate taking flyers in those rounds on guys whose performance would have them several rounds above but are troubled in some fashion. But the full list of this guys' problems wasn't being provided. Would totally approve of having picked him or that WR that fell out of the draft last year.

mussop
12-24-2013, 11:16 PM
Quite the opposite. I advocate taking flyers in those rounds on guys whose performance would have them several rounds above but are troubled in some fashion. But the full list of this guys' problems wasn't being provided. Would totally approve of having picked him or that WR that fell out of the draft last year.

Agree, this is where you take those chances. I was begging for him in the 5th. Couldn't believe we passed on him again in the six and seventh.

Here is an old post of mine on him.

here you go wolf6151 take a look a this. If you want a hard nosed defense that can get after people you need players like this. His closing speed is phenomenal. There is no other LB like him in this draft. Luke Kuechly, ILB, Boston College is the top rated ILB on every list i come to and racks up amazing stats but doesn't come close to Burfict IMO. In fact I don't think Luke will be that good in the NFL but that is for another thread.

Vontaze Burfict, ILB, Arizona State #7 Jr 6-3 250

video highlight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvcsffTQojI)
video highlight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7achvXsy3Q)
video highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cdocwxM0w8) show good and bad although most of the bad aint that bad.
video interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbXIN0d4V8w) sounds like a good guy.

GOOGLE LINK (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Vontaze+Burfict&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)


“For every great story you have about Vontaze,” says Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck, “another guy on another team will say he has one better.”

Here’s the best one of all: The toughest, meanest, nastiest player in the college game—the guy opponents fear and officials target, the guy once benched by his own coach because his violent makeup led to too many personal fouls—barely says two words away from his 53⅓-by-100-yard lined playground.

He is the ultimate enigma. A shy and reserved son who loves his mother and football and focuses on little else and a destructive, intimidating linebacker whose exploits have become so famous—or infamous, depending on how you see it—he has become a YouTube phenom.

Don’t believe it? Type Vontaze Burfict into the search field, and watch the ensuing carnage.

A Pac-12 coach calls him “deliciously violent.” An NFL scout calls him “what you get after you kick Ray Lewis’ dog.”



Read more: (http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2011-07-28/the-meanest-man-in-college-football-vontaze-burfict#ixzz1khC5UNFB)

NastyNate
12-25-2013, 06:53 AM
You left out quite a bit there. In college he was a personal foul magnet to the point he was benched despite his good play, causing a loss along the way. Plus his junior season was off and he decided to go pro anyway. Those bad interviews were bad in part because he is reported to have blamed the coaches for his bad junior year. Then he was the slowest LB at the combine at a ridiculous 5.09 and was reported to have tested positive for pot. Plus there was some sort of off the field issue I can't recall. Glad to see he is turning out but you need to tack on another 31 teams along with the Texans who jointly didn't think he was worth a draft pick.

He could have beat his sunday school teacher with a ruler and I'd still be on board. You don't let first round talent fall through your hands when you have a chance to snatch them in the 5th 6th or even 7th round (I know we didn't have a 7th rounder that draft). Hell even UDFA you extend a bigger offer with incentives. IF he pans out that's money well spent. If he doesn't, almost none of that contract is guaranteed and it certainly isn't hitting your cap that year if it is incentive based.

We take a 3rd round shot at Sam Montgomery and pass on Vontaze Burfict... Boy do we ever draft well.

bah007
12-25-2013, 10:42 AM
Funny how revisionist history always turns its head when a guy like Burfict ends up working out.

I remember talking this guy up before the draft despite his problems. I wouldn't have used a first round pick on him, but I advocated using a third (NFL GMs obviously disagreed with me). Most of you guys were on board with me until he had that god awful combine performance. I can't remember a single person on this board talking up Burfict after that, so it's funny to see people popping out of the woodwork now that he's had some NFL success.

NastyNate
12-25-2013, 09:43 PM
Funny how revisionist history always turns its head when a guy like Burfict ends up working out.

I remember talking this guy up before the draft despite his problems. I wouldn't have used a first round pick on him, but I advocated using a third (NFL GMs obviously disagreed with me). Most of you guys were on board with me until he had that god awful combine performance. I can't remember a single person on this board talking up Burfict after that, so it's funny to see people popping out of the woodwork now that he's had some NFL success.

I was still all aboard in March after the combine, check my post history.

bah007
12-25-2013, 09:53 PM
I was still all aboard in March after the combine, check my post history.

Wasn't calling out anybody in particular and I have no interest in looking up post history.

Point is that a lot of us would have been okay with taking a flyer on him late in the draft but nobody was pissed off that we were one of the 31 teams that passed on him multiple times.

He was a headache with a ton of baggage and it just so happened that it worked out for Cincinnati.

Hervoyel
12-26-2013, 09:28 AM
OP has a major crush on Brooke Reed and is trying to say that just because stats show Brooke as the worst 3-4 OLB in the game that he is actually good. Anyone else who's ever watched football can watch his play and look at his pathetic stats to deduce that he is just absolutely awful and is probably the worst player we have on defense.

Don't know about him, but I don't have a crush on Reed. But he is not near as bad as some of you make him out to be. He does just what Wade asks him to do in his position.

I think that because you can't replace everyone at once, not with any realistic expectation of improvement at least we're going to see for ourselves whether Brooks Reed is as bad as his critics believe or the guy whose numbers are unimpressive because he's doing what his DC is asking him to do and doing it well.

Nothing against you IronDuke but I really hope you're wrong here and that JB is correct. We need every part possible to fit and work well next season. I hope to see Brooks Reed playing well under a new regime in 2014 because if he isn't then that's just one more need to add to the list.

TheIronDuke
12-26-2013, 09:30 AM
I think that because you can't replace everyone at once, not with any realistic expectation of improvement at least we're going to see for ourselves whether Brooks Reed is as bad as his critics believe or the guy whose numbers are unimpressive because he's doing what his DC is asking him to do and doing it well.

Nothing against you IronDuke but I really hope you're wrong here and that JB is correct. We need every part possible to fit and work well next season. I hope to see Brooks Reed playing well under a new regime in 2014 because if he isn't then that's just one more need to add to the list.

I hope so too man, trust me. I want Reed to do well but so far he's been terrible. I want every Texan to play well and want us to win every game AFTER the Tacks game.

thunderkyss
12-26-2013, 11:54 AM
Wasn't calling out anybody in particular and I have no interest in looking up post history.

Point is that a lot of us would have been okay with taking a flyer on him late in the draft but nobody was pissed off that we were one of the 31 teams that passed on him multiple times.

He was a headache with a ton of baggage and it just so happened that it worked out for Cincinnati.

I think the Montgomery pick was the same type of gamble. It would feel a lot better, if we got him UD or even in the 5th or 6th.

It didn't work out for us & we lost what should have resulted in quality depth at worst. To me this, along with reports that most teams took "Sonic" completely off their boards, adds to the "Rick Smith has a serious issue understanding the draft" argument.

badboy
12-26-2013, 12:11 PM
Burfict was one of the better college LB I watched. It was his ability to draw the flag that turned me away. I had him rated a first round but as his last season progressed he steadily dropped due to his tackle integrity. He needed to have coaching to help him mature and he has received that. He became a starter in first season NFL due to injury IIRC. The dude can hit.

ArlingtonTexan
12-26-2013, 12:47 PM
I think that because you can't replace everyone at once, not with any realistic expectation of improvement at least we're going to see for ourselves whether Brooks Reed is as bad as his critics believe or the guy whose numbers are unimpressive because he's doing what his DC is asking him to do and doing it well.

Nothing against you IronDuke but I really hope you're wrong here and that JB is correct. We need every part possible to fit and work well next season. I hope to see Brooks Reed playing well under a new regime in 2014 because if he isn't then that's just one more need to add to the list.

Iron duke isn't wrong, the Texans tried to supplement/replace Reed(merci also) in the 2013 draft with Montgomery/Williams and neither worked out even to be a rotation type player with those, which I think was the low end goal of drafting two more OLBs when your projecting to start a 1st rounder and fairly high 2nd round at OLB.

Brooks Reed does not pass the eyeball nor actual production test. The "he sets the edge well" is "Kevin Walter blocks well" or "JJ Moses always catches the kick" of 2013. In a league where teams are passing 60% of the plays and where the player is in 3 point stance as de facto DE as much if not more than the listed OLB, that dude's main job is putting pressure on the QB.


And it is not like Reed is setting some standard at 'setting the edge' where teams refuse to run off-tackle or outside to the strong side of the Texans defense or anything.

LonerATO
12-26-2013, 10:51 PM
Yep no need to take chances on troubled but talented guys in rds 5-7.

Guys I would consider taking in rds 5-7 this yr include,

Lyerla 1st rd talent, FA brain.
Dyer, Same
Crowell, Same
Seantrel Henderson

I am all for Colt, he would give this team a Jimmy Graham/Gronk style TE.