PDA

View Full Version : Jake Matthews now #1


Pages : [1] 2

badboy
12-16-2013, 11:32 PM
NFLDraftscout now has Matthews rated #1 and Bridgewater dropped to #4 on new board from today.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2014/all

beerlover
12-16-2013, 11:42 PM
Darqueze Dennard to #7 top rated CB now.

Corrosion
12-16-2013, 11:48 PM
Earlier in the season , I preferred Matthews .... In general I still do.

But .... Circumstances dictate course of action.

The circumstances here are simple - We don't have a quarterback. If you don't have a franchise QB , you go get one. Teddy , should he declare is probably your best bet to become that franchise QB , at least in this draft.

I don't want one of the scrap heap QB's that will be FA's this offseason , they have all proven they aren't "Franchise Quarterbacks." They are Schaub or worse .... I've had enough of that.

I guess you do have the option of drafting Matthews and letting Case act like an NFL QB for another season then drafting Jameis Winston or Marcus Mariota in the 2015 draft .... but I'm not so sure I can stomach another season like this one.

Wolf6151
12-16-2013, 11:50 PM
I saw this a few days ago and wonder why Bridgewater has fallen a little. If the Texans took Matthews #1 overall then Rick Smith should be fired on the spot. #1 overall on a RT is not the best use of your resources. If they don't think Bridgewater is worthy of the #1 pick so be it. Trade down, get extra picks and then take Cyrus Kouandjio or Cameron Erving in the 1st.

badboy
12-16-2013, 11:50 PM
Darqueze Dennard to #7 top rated CB now.Hey! How are you evaluating McCarron now? He has climbed to second round. I think he will have a solid if not spectacular combine. Appreciate your views.

Corrosion
12-17-2013, 12:02 AM
I saw this a few days ago and wonder why Bridgewater has fallen a little. If the Texans took Matthews #1 overall then Rick Smith should be fired on the spot. #1 overall on a RT is not the best use of your resources. If they don't think Bridgewater is worthy of the #1 pick so be it. Trade down, get extra picks and then take Cyrus Kouandjio or Cameron Erving in the 1st.

Well , there are a couple ways to look at this .....

Yeah , Matthews would play RT here .... but how many more good years does Duane Brown have ? Will he actually play out that contract thru 2019 ?!? Matthews would be Browns replacement .... already on the roster. You have to think of this as a long term pick , not just the here & now.


If they decide Bridgewater isn't their guy , I'd much prefer to trade down too .... but you have to have a team willing to trade up for you to move down. Maybe you cant find a willing partner ....


Irving is a beast .... but again , is RT the best use of that asset ?! Its not #1 overall but its still likely top 5-8.


A trade down that landed one of Irving , Mosley or Evans .... would make me happy.

mussop
12-17-2013, 12:24 AM
Well , there are a couple ways to look at this .....

Yeah , Matthews would play RT here .... but how many more good years does Duane Brown have ? Will he actually play out that contract thru 2019 ?!? Matthews would be Browns replacement .... already on the roster. You have to think of this as a long term pick , not just the here & now.


If they decide Bridgewater isn't their guy , I'd much prefer to trade down too .... but you have to have a team willing to trade up for you to move down. Maybe you cant find a willing partner ....


Irving is a beast .... but again , is RT the best use of that asset ?! Its not #1 overall but its still likely top 5-8.


A trade down that landed one of Irving , Mosley or Evans .... would make me happy.


This!

steelbtexan
12-17-2013, 12:32 AM
Earlier in the season , I preferred Matthews .... In general I still do.

But .... Circumstances dictate course of action.

The circumstances here are simple - We don't have a quarterback. If you don't have a franchise QB , you go get one. Teddy , should he declare is probably your best bet to become that franchise QB , at least in this draft.

I don't want one of the scrap heap QB's that will be FA's this offseason , they have all proven they aren't "Franchise Quarterbacks." They are Schaub or worse .... I've had enough of that.

I guess you do have the option of drafting Matthews and letting Case act like an NFL QB for another season then drafting Jameis Winston or Marcus Mariota in the 2015 draft .... but I'm not so sure I can stomach another season like this one.

I dont want Matthews at 1-1.

I could live with Jason Campbell next yr if it meant getting one of the top 5 QB's in 2015. After filling in all of the holes in this yrs draft. Long term planning should be the key. Do I think BoB/Rick are capable of this? Nope. Gotta sell those tickets/jerseys etc... Get ready to buy your Bridgewater jersey because that's what BoB does. Regardless of if Bridgewater his best for the long term health of his franchise.

But as another poster said BoB doesn't owe us anything and this is true. Because if it wasn't true Rick Smith would be out of a JOB.

Texian
12-17-2013, 08:32 AM
IMHO I don't think Matthews will be the first OT taken in the draft. There are a couple of more athletic OTs that could be in this draft. Matthews last few games were disappointing.

Playoffs
12-17-2013, 10:33 AM
I have no issue taking Matthews if we'll have have a shot at a Bortles in the 2nd and/or a Mettenberger in the 3rd.

St. Louis would take Matthews or Clowney or Teddy, so they won't be a trade partner.

We won't get to see the most interesting part of this offseason, which will be the trade machinations/offers/scenarios.

bah007
12-17-2013, 10:38 AM
I have no issue taking Matthews if we'll have have a shot at a Bortles in the 2nd and/or a Mettenberger in the 3rd.

St. Louis would take Matthews or Clowney or Teddy, so they won't be a trade partner.

We won't get to see the most interesting part of this offseason, which will be the trade machinations/offers/scenarios.

Not likely barring some unforeseen event. Bortles is basically a top 20 lock at this point and Mettenberger won't make it out of the top half of the second round.

This is also the problem with all the trade back scenarios. How do you ensure that you can trade back and still get the guy you want?

Playoffs
12-17-2013, 10:56 AM
Not likely barring some unforeseen event. Bortles is basically a top 20 lock at this point and Mettenberger won't make it out of the top half of the second round.


For the purposes of this discussion I'm using their board, which has Bortles at 38 and Mettenberger at 80.

badboy
12-17-2013, 10:57 AM
Not likely barring some unforeseen event. Bortles is basically a top 20 lock at this point and Mettenberger won't make it out of the top half of the second round.

This is also the problem with all the trade back scenarios. How do you ensure that you can trade back and still get the guy you want?Well in our situation as we have so many needs, we select the guy the team we trade with wants and then swap when they pick the guy we want. If the deal falls through we still have very good player 1-1. For me there is so much question with all the QBs, if we hit on one in later rounds, it could be best bet. I am again looking at McCarron who has moved up a round. If you can set aside the "game manager" description he compares favorably with all especially if you figure in wins and competition, playing under the lights. With a refurbished offensive line (which we have to do regardless who takes snaps) and a healthy Foster a "game manager may just be what we need. You can say AJ was nominated for Heisman on body of work not 2013 but you could also say many other QBs were not selected due to their 2013. For me body of work shows consistency.

Dutchrudder
12-17-2013, 10:58 AM
Anyone advocating a RT in the 1st round should be fired from their pretend-GM job. There is absolutely no reason why we can't get a pass rusher or QB with our 1-1 pick. Those are the two biggest premium positions in the league, besides LT, which we already have in Duane Brown. We really shouldn't have to spend more than a 3rd on a competent RT given where we will be drafting. Let someone else pick Matthews or whoever at OT in the 1st while we focus on OLB and QB with our first two picks.

Honoring Earl 34
12-17-2013, 11:01 AM
Anyone advocating a RT in the 1st round should be fired from their pretend-GM job. There is absolutely no reason why we can't get a pass rushing QB with our 1-1 pick. Those are the two biggest premium positions in the league, besides LT, which we already have in Duane Brown. We really shouldn't have to spend more than a 3rd on a competent RT given where we will be drafting. Let someone else pick Matthews or whoever at OT in the 1st while we focus on OLB and QB with our first two picks.


This is what we really need . :peek:

Marcus
12-17-2013, 08:19 PM
Anyone advocating a RT in the 1st round should be fired from their pretend-GM job.

Well, go ahead and fire me then. I really didn't like working for you anyways. :fingergun:

If we get Matthews at 1-1, and Mettenburger at 2-1, I'm good.

EDIT: Given that this year's draft has NOBODY worth the 1st overall pick, and if you don't have any takers in trading down, then you minimize the risk and take the SAFE pick. All the QBs on the board are at risk of being a bust. Given the David Carr fiasco, taking that risk again without addressing the OL is stupid.

Matthews is the less risky pick. Play it safe, and take the risks in the lower rounds.

badboy
12-17-2013, 09:08 PM
Anyone advocating a RT in the 1st round should be fired from their pretend-GM job. There is absolutely no reason why we can't get a pass rusher or QB with our 1-1 pick. Those are the two biggest premium positions in the league, besides LT, which we already have in Duane Brown. We really shouldn't have to spend more than a 3rd on a competent RT given where we will be drafting. Let someone else pick Matthews or whoever at OT in the 1st while we focus on OLB and QB with our first two picks.The first pick has to be a solid starter for several years with probable pro bowl invites. Matthews imo has fewer risks than almost any player including Barr and all QBs. Can we trade down and still get a good tackle, sure but cannot we say the same about most other positions also?

The history of Texans drafting is usually to select a player who can play more than one position. Matthews should be able to play four of five and maybe center, as did his dad who had five years as a pro bowl center. I think Jake is closer to a franchise type player than any of the other projected first rounders. You cannot always look at the dad and see how the son will do but the Matthews have done pretty well going back to Clay Matthews Senior.

steelbtexan
12-17-2013, 09:30 PM
Well, go ahead and fire me then. I really didn't like working for you anyways. :fingergun:

If we get Matthews at 1-1, and Mettenburger at 2-1, I'm good.

EDIT: Given that this year's draft has NOBODY worth the 1st overall pick, and if you don't have any takers in trading down, then you minimize the risk and take the SAFE pick. All the QBs on the board are at risk of being a bust. Given the David Carr fiasco, taking that risk again without addressing the OL is stupid.

Matthews is the less risky pick. Play it safe, and take the risks in the lower rounds.

Give me Clowney at 1-1. But I wouldn't be upset with your scenerio. Cant go wrong with picking Matthews.

Texan_Bill
12-17-2013, 09:59 PM
Earlier in the season , I preferred Matthews .... In general I still do.

But .... Circumstances dictate course of action.

The circumstances here are simple - We don't have a quarterback. If you don't have a franchise QB , you go get one. .

"Jane, you ignorant slut!"

This draft is rich with QB's.... Just sayin'....

I mean after all Derek Carr would be available... :kitten:

Dutchrudder
12-17-2013, 10:51 PM
What's the point of having a RT if he has no one worth protecting?

What's the point in having the first pick if you can't confidently draft an above average (at least) starter at multiple positions?

What's the point in drafting if you aren't willing to take a little risk?

We have been drafting ****ty in the later rounds for years. Most teams find their RT in free agency or later rounds of the draft. There's no reason why the Texans can't do that, or shouldn't try. You rarely see a team spend 2 first round picks on both tackle positions, because it's just too damn much to spend on a position that should be filled for less resources. If you can't find a competent RT in rounds 3-1 though 7 then you need a new GM (which I am in favor of!).

Think of it this way, how much does the average RT cost in the NFL? How much dose the average strong-side pass rusher cost? How much does the average QB cost?

Figure out where to spend picks based on scarcity and costs so you don't over-allocate resources to one position. Picking Matthews, IMO, is overallocating resources to the OT position. It would be a reactionary pick due to the poor play at RT, rather than a calculated pick based on salary-cap football.

Corrosion
12-17-2013, 11:07 PM
What's the point of having a RT if he has no one worth protecting?

What's the point in having the first pick if you can't confidently draft an above average (at least) starter at multiple positions?

What's the point in drafting if you aren't willing to take a little risk?

We have been drafting ****ty in the later rounds for years. Most teams find their RT in free agency or later rounds of the draft. There's no reason why the Texans can't do that, or shouldn't try. You rarely see a team spend 2 first round picks on both tackle positions, because it's just too damn much to spend on a position that should be filled for less resources. If you can't find a competent RT in rounds 3-1 though 7 then you need a new GM (which I am in favor of!).

Think of it this way, how much does the average RT cost in the NFL? How much dose the average strong-side pass rusher cost? How much does the average QB cost?

Figure out where to spend picks based on scarcity and costs so you don't over-allocate resources to one position. Picking Matthews, IMO, is overallocating resources to the OT position. It would be a reactionary pick due to the poor play at RT, rather than a calculated pick based on salary-cap football.

You are entitled to your opinion .... and in theory I don't disagree.


But QB being the greatest position of need .... Either there is one you feel is a franchise QB or not. If you feel he is the real deal you draft him.

If not .... then you have the #1 pick in the wrong damn year , tough luck.

I'd prefer to trade down because I don't believe there is a franchise QB in this draft and that none of the other players are worth taking (For this team) at #1 overall. I wouldn't touch Clowney in the first round , Barr is good player ... but over rated.

But .... to move down you have to have someone willing to move up.

If you cant move down and aren't taking Bridgewater .... Matthews is probably the safest pick in this draft. He fills a dire need and can eventually replace your franchise LT when he is cut , traded or retires.

JB
12-17-2013, 11:20 PM
You are entitled to your opinion .... and in theory I don't disagree.


But QB being the greatest position of need .... Either there is one you feel is a franchise QB or not. If you feel he is the real deal you draft him.

If not .... then you have the #1 pick in the wrong damn year , tough luck.

I'd prefer to trade down because I don't believe there is a franchise QB in this draft and that none of the other players are worth taking (For this team) at #1 overall. I wouldn't touch Clowney in the first round , Barr is good player ... but over rated.

But .... to move down you have to have someone willing to move up.

If you cant move down and aren't taking Bridgewater .... Matthews is probably the safest pick in this draft. He fills a dire need and can eventually replace your franchise LT when he is cut , traded or retires.

I agree with all that, but CJ Mosely awfully tempting if we can get a trade down to about 5

Scooter
12-17-2013, 11:40 PM
i dont mind taking a RT with the first overall, with today's rookie wage scale of course. if you have a guy that projects to be someone you'll have on the roster for 10+ years, that's worthy of a first overall regardless of position to me - especially when it's a current need. of course the position comes into play if there's a higher ranked position with the same "sure thing" label attached, but i'd rather have the starter than the question mark.

badboy
12-17-2013, 11:44 PM
What's the point of having a RT if he has no one worth protecting?

What's the point in having the first pick if you can't confidently draft an above average (at least) starter at multiple positions?

What's the point in drafting if you aren't willing to take a little risk?

We have been drafting ****ty in the later rounds for years. Most teams find their RT in free agency or later rounds of the draft. There's no reason why the Texans can't do that, or shouldn't try. You rarely see a team spend 2 first round picks on both tackle positions, because it's just too damn much to spend on a position that should be filled for less resources. If you can't find a competent RT in rounds 3-1 though 7 then you need a new GM (which I am in favor of!).

Think of it this way, how much does the average RT cost in the NFL? How much dose the average strong-side pass rusher cost? How much does the average QB cost?

Figure out where to spend picks based on scarcity and costs so you don't over-allocate resources to one position. Picking Matthews, IMO, is overallocating resources to the OT position. It would be a reactionary pick due to the poor play at RT, rather than a calculated pick based on salary-cap football.
Your first sentence is the issue DR as we can get something to protect in second round. Bortles, McCarron and Mettenberger all rated after #38. Other teams may draft RT in FA or later rounds, well we did also with minimal results. Antonio Richardson is the only OT after first round that can start for us and I am very concerned he will go in late first and I don't automatically project him to RT anyway. I do need to add that JuWaan James could start but the further you go less chance he will be there.

I am not concerned about cost as Matthews would be on at least a four year contract for reasonable money as was DB. 4-5 years from now we worry about Brown's last years. Sometimes you draft a good player and cut costs elsewhere. You control your cap by wisely bringing in cheap young draft picks and cheap FA and occasionally UDFA and knowing when to move on from your expensive vets. I am definitely not arguing cap with you but just offering my POV.

badboy
12-17-2013, 11:49 PM
I agree with all that, but CJ Mosely awfully tempting if we can get a trade down to about 5
Huge fan of Mosley but draft is very deep with similar type ILB. Heck even Blair of Cincinnati is rated 5-6 round and he is pretty dang good.

badboy
12-18-2013, 12:02 AM
i dont mind taking a RT with the first overall, with today's rookie wage scale of course. if you have a guy that projects to be someone you'll have on the roster for 10+ years, that's worthy of a first overall regardless of position to me - especially when it's a current need. of course the position comes into play if there's a higher ranked position with the same "sure thing" label attached, but i'd rather have the starter than the question mark.Agreed it would be like drafting a healthy Antone Exum to play safety for 2-3 years to replace Manning and then move him to corner when Joseph goes. If I thought TB was a franchise QB, I'd gladly take him and go RT later, but that is not what I or others think. IMO there are better QB candidates in second round than RTs.

SW H-TOWN
12-18-2013, 12:43 AM
I would not mind taking Matthews, we really have to get another T, but we have to get the QB position taken care of first. If our FO is not sold on Bridgewater I would prefer to trade back a couple of spots and get several extra picks. It is imperative that the Texans obtain a QB, OLB, and OT in the offseason.

One extra thought, I sure hope that we don't pick Jadevon Clowney with the #1 pick. He has 35 total tackles, 10.5 TFL, and 3 sacks. That is completely unacceptable considering his talent level. Just to put that into perspective Anthony Barr has 63 total tackles, 20 TFL, and 10 sacks.

badboy
12-18-2013, 12:52 AM
I would not mind taking Matthews, we really have to get another T, but we have to get the QB position taken care of first. If our FO is not sold on Bridgewater I would prefer to trade back a couple of spots and get several extra picks. It is imperative that the Texans obtain a QB, OLB, and OT in the offseason.

One extra thought, I sure hope that we don't pick Jadevon Clowney with the #1 pick. He has 35 total tackles, 10.5 TFL, and 3 sacks. That is completely unacceptable considering his talent level. Just to put that into perspective Anthony Barr has 63 total tackles, 20 TFL, and 10 sacks.Curious as to why it matters when we take care of QB or any position as long as we take care of it? I am really surprised that we do not have all the BPA fans screaming BPA. Some are but not many.

SW H-TOWN
12-18-2013, 01:01 AM
Curious as to why it matters when we take care of QB or any position as long as we take care of it? I am really surprised that we do not have all the BPA fans screaming BPA. Some are but not many.

I'm just saying that we can have the best 2 tackles in the NFL but we won't sniff a Super Bowl without a franchise QB. QB has to be the first, second, and third priority. Just look at Green Bay with and without Aaron Rodgers.

toronto
12-18-2013, 01:18 AM
This is going to be (depending a little on Teddy declaring) a possibly wild first round. There will be a lot more top-end trades for QB-hungry teams and the prices will be high. Going to be fascinating to watch it unfold next April.

Marcus
12-18-2013, 03:43 AM
Curious as to why it matters when we take care of QB or any position as long as we take care of it? I am really surprised that we do not have all the BPA fans screaming BPA. Some are but not many.

Well, I'm screaming BPA from the rooftops, you're exactly right. If you are unfortunate enough to get stuck with the 1st overall pick, you'd better damn well take the BPA, no matter what that position happens to be.

Reaching with the first overall pick to fill a certain position is stupid. This team did that in their very first year and look how that ended up. There is not a single QB on the board this year that would not be a reach with the first pick. There are no "franchise" QBs available. Bridgewater would be a reach. Manziel would be a reach. Boyd would be a reach. Derek Carr would be a reach. That being said though, this year's draft is deep in QBs.

Look, I don't know if anyone's been keeping up, but we also happen to have the 1st pick in the 2nd round. Looking at the latest mock projections, it's very likely that Boyd, Carr, Mettenburger, and Hogan will still be available. Manziel might even be there if he can't keep his trap shut. So what is all this hyperventilating about we just have to take a QB with the first overall, when we will have the pick of the litter in the 2nd?

And just where is written in stone somewhere that "franchise" QBs could only be gotten in the top of the first round? Was Tom Brady drafted in the first round? Was Drew Brees drafted in the 1st. What about Colin Kaepernick, or Russell Wilson?

Ideally, they find a partner to trade down with and get extra picks, but I would be shocked if that happened, as I don't think there is any team stupid enough to think that any player is worth trading up to get the 1st overall. So we are going to be stuck with it, the SAFE pick is the SMART pick. Get the RT, it fills a big need, and we get a good QB in the 2nd round.

Marshall
12-18-2013, 08:20 AM
Anyone advocating a RT in the 1st round should be fired from their pretend-GM job. There is absolutely no reason why we can't get a pass rusher or QB with our 1-1 pick. Those are the two biggest premium positions in the league, besides LT, which we already have in Duane Brown. We really shouldn't have to spend more than a 3rd on a competent RT given where we will be drafting. Let someone else pick Matthews or whoever at OT in the 1st while we focus on OLB and QB with our first two picks.

This is where trade scenarios come in. A QB centric team who has zeroed in on TB (say Cleveland) who fears that the the top 3 QBs will be off the board by it's 5th pick might be willing to pay dearly to move up to 1 or 2. They have 5,24,37,69,76,101,120,133,165 and 197. While there might be some risk moving back to 5, there would be an outstanding player there and more picks, particularly high ones, increase our chances of filling more gaps with quality prospects.

I'm of the opinion that TB may be the best of this years deep crop of good QBs, but I don't think any have GREAT or ELITE expectations. We have good QBs who can't overcome poor line play and better players on IR. Between IR players returning and four top draft choices, I think we can return to the exciting team we were expecting.

Think about it. Would you rather have TB or Matthews AND Bortles AND a top CB or DE in addition to our 33 pick (S?)?

ps the old trade value book says #1-1=3000; #1-5=1700, #1-24=740, #2-5=530, #3-5=245, #3-12=210,#4-5=96... Two first and a fifth would balance plus a premium to jump QB hungry teams like Houston, Jacksonville, Oakland, or a possible trade with St. Louis by Minnesota or Tennessee.

mussop
12-18-2013, 08:30 AM
Your first sentence is the issue DR as we can get something to protect in second round. Bortles, McCarron and Mettenberger all rated after #38. Other teams may draft RT in FA or later rounds, well we did also with minimal results. Antonio Richardson is the only OT after first round that can start for us and I am very concerned he will go in late first and I don't automatically project him to RT anyway. I do need to add that JuWaan James could start but the further you go less chance he will be there.

I am not concerned about cost as Matthews would be on at least a four year contract for reasonable money as was DB. 4-5 years from now we worry about Brown's last years. Sometimes you draft a good player and cut costs elsewhere. You control your cap by wisely bringing in cheap young draft picks and cheap FA and occasionally UDFA and knowing when to move on from your expensive vets. I am definitely not arguing cap with you but just offering my POV.

Your first sentence is the issue Badboy as you think using a sports website big board in December is a legitimate Guide to making a viable decision on draft strategy. That is something I would expect from Texian.

mussop
12-18-2013, 08:36 AM
And I'm sorry for all you trade down guys who think that we have a chance to pull in a haul like the rams got. That was for a rare prospect. As of now there isn't one of those in this draft. You better keep your fingers crossed that one will emerge in the draft evaluation process. However if one does its way more likely he's our pick than us trading down.

Corrosion
12-18-2013, 08:40 AM
And I'm sorry for all you trade down guys who think that we have a chance to pull in a haul like the rams got. That was for a rare prospect. As of now there isn't one of those in this draft. You better keep your fingers crossed that one will emerge in the draft evaluation process. However if one does its way more likely he's our pick than us trading down.



.... then you have the #1 pick in the wrong damn year , tough luck.






Makes me hate the Dolts that much more. :smiliepalm:

The1ApplePie
12-18-2013, 10:00 AM
Anyone advocating a RT in the 1st round should be fired from their pretend-GM job. There is absolutely no reason why we can't get a pass rusher or QB with our 1-1 pick. Those are the two biggest premium positions in the league, besides LT, which we already have in Duane Brown. We really shouldn't have to spend more than a 3rd on a competent RT given where we will be drafting. Let someone else pick Matthews or whoever at OT in the 1st while we focus on OLB and QB with our first two picks.

MSR

Clowney, Barr, or Bridgewater are the only picks to make in that position. Even with the mythical trade down, taking a RT in the first simply makes no sense. Pass rusher and QB are the two most important positions on the team, the Texans have one pass rusher and no QB. Take a RT at the top of the 3rd, problem solved.

The Texans need a starting QB, not a 3rd round project or "Less Talented Mark Sanchez" AJ McCarrin

steelbtexan
12-18-2013, 10:03 AM
I'm just saying that we can have the best 2 tackles in the NFL but we won't sniff a Super Bowl without a franchise QB. QB has to be the first, second, and third priority. Just look at Green Bay with and without Aaron Rodgers.


Yep and there isn't a franchise QB available in this draft. IMHO So do you want to force the QB pick and set this franchise back another decade like Casserly did with Carr?

2015 is when the franchise QB's are coming out. The Texans should be doing everything they can to position themselves to get one at that time. Of course BoB/Rick cant see that far ahead.

deucetx
12-18-2013, 10:05 AM
Honestly what I would really like for them to do if they get the number one pick is trade down. There generally is always someone who reaches and with so many teams needing a quarterback they may want the position to get the one they want. As long as our asking price isn't something idiotic a good GM should be able to make this happen. Now if Smith is a good one remains to be seen as I think many of us have some doubts in that area. This will probably be the first draft he has more power in the decision making depending on the coach hire.

Corrosion
12-18-2013, 10:11 AM
I agree with all that, but CJ Mosely awfully tempting if we can get a trade down to about 5

I've said on more than one occasion I think Mosley is the best "Football Player" in this draft. Would be happy with most any trade down scenario that landed him and other draft considerations.

steelbtexan
12-18-2013, 10:12 AM
I would be OK with

Rd.1 Clowney/Barr
Rd.2 Bortles/Manziel/Mettenberger
Rd.3 Morgan Moses/James/Mewhort

That's value picks.

Playoffs
12-18-2013, 10:50 AM
Anyone advocating a RT in the 1st round should be fired from their pretend-GM job...

Just chewing the fat until we get some clarity, here. Who's the Head Coach? Who's the new Offensive Coordinator? Who's the Defensive Coordinator? Are we running ZBS or Power or some hybrid? Dink & dunk or downfield passing. 3-4, 4-3, 5-2?

I can't fit a QB into an unknown system, and I want to draft/prioritize front seven into a scheme. And what are we hearing from the "draft bowls", underwear Olympics, and especially the interviews & pro days?

So the clock isn't ticking yet on my pretend GM card. Waiting for Rick's phone call... :kitten:

Dutchrudder
12-18-2013, 11:08 AM
Just chewing the fat until we get some clarity, here. Who's the Head Coach? Who's the new Offensive Coordinator? Who's the Defensive Coordinator? Are we running ZBS or Power or some hybrid? Dink & dunk or downfield passing. 3-4, 4-3, 5-2?

I can't fit a QB into an unknown system, and I want to draft/prioritize front seven into a scheme. And what are we hearing from the "draft bowls", underwear Olympics, and especially the interviews & pro days?

So the clock isn't ticking yet on my pretend GM card. Waiting for Rick's phone call... :kitten:

I don't care what the scheme is, you don't take a RT at 1-1, unless you plan on losing your LT in the near future. Duane Brown's contract is not tradeable for several years, so he's not going anywhere. And again, if you have a GM that isn't capable of finding at least an average RT in rounds 3-7, then you need a new GM. It really shouldn't require so much of our draft ammo to fill the RT position.

WolverineFan
12-18-2013, 11:36 AM
And just where is written in stone somewhere that "franchise" QBs could only be gotten in the top of the first round? Was Tom Brady drafted in the first round? Was Drew Brees drafted in the 1st. What about Colin Kaepernick, or Russell Wilson?

It's not written anywhere. However, 75% of the starting QB's in the league were drafted in the 1st round. Now, can you find guys in other rounds? Sure. But the odds are against you.

I went through the numbers in a different thread last week. The odds of finding a franchise QB are astronomically higher in the 1st round and they get even better the higher you go up the draft order. Despite the bust rate being very high, it's still much lower than the bust rate for QB's drafted outside the 1st.

People love to point out Brees or Wilson, which is fine, but let's not act like that's the norm. It is a rare occurrence. For the most part, if you want a starting QB, you're using your 1st round pick to get him.

With all that said, I do agree with you about BPA. We should not take a QB just because he's a QB. He should be the best player. Taking a QB just because he's a QB will only add to that bust rate.

WolverineFan
12-18-2013, 11:39 AM
I would be OK with

Rd.1 Clowney/Barr
Rd.2 Bortles/Manziel/Mettenberger
Rd.3 Morgan Moses/James/Mewhort

That's value picks.

Mettenberger is the only guy that has a chance to last until #33. In that scenario, you're picking between Mettenberger, McCarron, Murray, etc.

steelbtexan
12-18-2013, 11:46 AM
Mettenberger is the only guy that has a chance to last until #33. In that scenario, you're picking between Mettenberger, McCarron, Murray, etc.

If you feel one of those guys are your guys then you could trade up using 2-1 and your 2015 1st depending on how far you wanted to trade up. For instance if Borltes fell to 15 would you trade a 2014 2nd/4th and a 2015 1st to pick Bortles? If you truly think Bortles is a franchise QB you do the trade.

Right now I just dont see a QB that's worth 1-1.

WolverineFan
12-18-2013, 11:56 AM
If you feel one of those guys are your guys then you could trade up using 2-1 and your 2015 1st depending on how far you wanted to trade up. For instance if Borltes fell to 15 would you trade a 2014 2nd/4th and a 2015 1st to pick Bortles? If you truly think Bortles is a franchise QB you do the trade.

Right now I just dont see a QB that's worth 1-1.

If I truly think Bortles is a franchise guy then I take him #1. Why would you trade picks this year and your 1st next year for a guy that you could just take #1?

I still don't understand that scenario and you've laid it out many times before. You can use your 1st this year on a QB or you can use your 2nd this year and 1st next year on a QB. Why would you choose the 2nd option?

eriadoc
12-18-2013, 12:06 PM
You are entitled to your opinion .... and in theory I don't disagree.


But QB being the greatest position of need .... Either there is one you feel is a franchise QB or not. If you feel he is the real deal you draft him.

If not .... then you have the #1 pick in the wrong damn year , tough luck.

I'd prefer to trade down because I don't believe there is a franchise QB in this draft and that none of the other players are worth taking (For this team) at #1 overall. I wouldn't touch Clowney in the first round , Barr is good player ... but over rated.

But .... to move down you have to have someone willing to move up.

If you cant move down and aren't taking Bridgewater .... Matthews is probably the safest pick in this draft. He fills a dire need and can eventually replace your franchise LT when he is cut , traded or retires.

Best player available. If that's a tackle, so be it. It's not like the team doesn't need a tackle as well. So you can pair need and BPA. That's a win-win scenario.

Oh yeah, people want to force the QB pick. The only way I buy the argument that you have to draft a QB high if you have that pick is if you are willing to give up on him after one season. Because the next year, you might have a high draft pick and a better QB might be available. I mean, we're all about getting a great QB, right? Or did we want to set the franchise back 2-4 years while they figure out if the last #1 guy was the right pick?

How long do you give a new QB? 6 games? 10 games? 2 years? 4 years? Or does it just depend on if the QB was someone you touted and wanted brought in?

:smfh:

WolverineFan
12-18-2013, 12:15 PM
Oh yeah, people want to force the QB pick. The only way I buy the argument that you have to draft a QB high if you have that pick is if you are willing to give up on him after one season. Because the next year, you might have a high draft pick and a better QB might be available. I mean, we're all about getting a great QB, right? Or did we want to set the franchise back 2-4 years while they figure out if the last #1 guy was the right pick?

How long do you give a new QB? 6 games? 10 games? 2 years? 4 years? Or does it just depend on if the QB was someone you touted and wanted brought in?

:smfh:

We all know this is about Keenum. Please take that to the Keenum threads.

And I mean that with no offense and please don't take it personally. But the guys here talking about drafting QB's have either a) given up on Keenum a while ago or 2) never thought he was the guy. The majority of the guys here probably think a 1st or 2nd round draft pick is more talented than Keenum and deserve more time to start and prove himself than an UDFA to so it's pointless to start all that.

FWIW, I agree about BPA and not forcing a QB. I do not think Matthews is BPA however.

Marcus
12-18-2013, 12:28 PM
I can tell already that come draft day the fur is going fly around here. It'll be hilarious.

beerlover
12-18-2013, 01:10 PM
If I truly think Bortles is a franchise guy then I take him #1. Why would you trade picks this year and your 1st next year for a guy that you could just take #1?

I still don't understand that scenario and you've laid it out many times before. You can use your 1st this year on a QB or you can use your 2nd this year and 1st next year on a QB. Why would you choose the 2nd option?

This is such a great post, it hits the nail on the head.

BPA for Texans has to be a QB they can insert into starting role & become face of the franchise. I get the whole maximize your pick leverage argument but if TB or Bortles is your guy, sign him & let's move this franchise forward.

First thing is finding a new coach then both underclassman have to declare bypassing Senior season for NFL.

beerlover
12-18-2013, 01:18 PM
Besides his last name the greatest thing about Jake is his versatility, both tackle positions & a knockout LG. So for his specific positions his skill set may be graded out as tops among all prospects but we all know which position can raise & lower a franchise quicker than any, lol.

eriadoc
12-18-2013, 01:35 PM
We all know this is about Keenum. Please take that to the Keenum threads.

Actually, it's more about Carr than Keenum. Team gave the man 5 years to prove he wasn't it. And while fans largely agreed with each other that the last year was stupid, they didn't seem to mind giving him the first 3 at a minimum (myself included). I would hope we've learned from that.

This draft gives me a 2002 vibe where a bunch of QBs will be taken and they might all end up sucking. So if they take a QB in this draft, I want them to be willing to take another in 2015 if the need is there. Personally, I want them to take the best player available, whoever that is. If Bridgewater is at the top of everyone's board, then take Bridgewater. Don't force the pick, though. And recognize that the best rated QB of 2014 may not even be close to the best rated QB of 2015.

The1ApplePie
12-18-2013, 01:43 PM
It's not written anywhere. However, 75% of the starting QB's in the league were drafted in the 1st round. Now, can you find guys in other rounds? Sure. But the odds are against you.

I went through the numbers in a different thread last week. The odds of finding a franchise QB are astronomically higher in the 1st round and they get even better the higher you go up the draft order. Despite the bust rate being very high, it's still much lower than the bust rate for QB's drafted outside the 1st.

People love to point out Brees or Wilson, which is fine, but let's not act like that's the norm. It is a rare occurrence. For the most part, if you want a starting QB, you're using your 1st round pick to get him.

With all that said, I do agree with you about BPA. We should not take a QB just because he's a QB. He should be the best player. Taking a QB just because he's a QB will only add to that bust rate.

Guys like Kaepernick and Wilson were taken later, but were seen as developmental prospects at the time. Kaep sat on the bench his first year, as Wilson was supposed to do, before it turned out Flynn sucked.

Romo was undrafted, Brady was a 6th rounder. Both were expected to ride the bench, maybe develop, maybe not. But history dictates that a good QB has to come in the first round, usually high.

There isn't an NFL starting QB on the roster right now. Does the fanbase really want to ride out 2014 with two great OTs and Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, McCown, or Sam Bradford at QB?

badboy
12-18-2013, 01:45 PM
This is where trade scenarios come in. A QB centric team who has zeroed in on TB (say Cleveland) who fears that the the top 3 QBs will be off the board by it's 5th pick might be willing to pay dearly to move up to 1 or 2. They have 5,24,37,69,76,101,120,133,165 and 197. While there might be some risk moving back to 5, there would be an outstanding player there and more picks, particularly high ones, increase our chances of filling more gaps with quality prospects.

I'm of the opinion that TB may be the best of this years deep crop of good QBs, but I don't think any have GREAT or ELITE expectations. We have good QBs who can't overcome poor line play and better players on IR. Between IR players returning and four top draft choices, I think we can return to the exciting team we were expecting.

Think about it. Would you rather have TB or Matthews AND Bortles AND a top CB or DE in addition to our 33 pick (S?)?

ps the old trade value book says #1-1=3000; #1-5=1700, #1-24=740, #2-5=530, #3-5=245, #3-12=210,#4-5=96... Two first and a fifth would balance plus a premium to jump QB hungry teams like Houston, Jacksonville, Oakland, or a possible trade with St. Louis by Minnesota or Tennessee.

yep see my mock with a trade to Cleveland. The value has even become greater since we now have #1 pick. Even if no trade we should get a very high quality starter.

badboy
12-18-2013, 01:48 PM
Your first sentence is the issue Badboy as you think using a sports website big board in December is a legitimate Guide to making a viable decision on draft strategy. That is something I would expect from Texian.

You seriously do not think we can project a QB at #34 based on known info? If not, why are you even in this forum? Of course players move up and down but that is the beauty of this thing.

Also you stated no one would be there in second to protect so how did you arrive at that decision?

badboy
12-18-2013, 01:53 PM
MSR

Clowney, Barr, or Bridgewater are the only picks to make in that position. Even with the mythical trade down, taking a RT in the first simply makes no sense. Pass rusher and QB are the two most important positions on the team, the Texans have one pass rusher and no QB. Take a RT at the top of the 3rd, problem solved.The Texans need a starting QB, not a 3rd round project or "Less Talented Mark Sanchez" AJ McCarrinBased on your hours of watching college tackles and research please identify the right tackle you would so easily find available at top of third that starts.

badboy
12-18-2013, 02:00 PM
This is such a great post, it hits the nail on the head.

BPA for Texans has to be a QB they can insert into starting role & become face of the franchise. I get the whole maximize your pick leverage argument but if TB or Bortles is your guy, sign him & let's move this franchise forward.

First thing is finding a new coach then both underclassman have to declare bypassing Senior season for NFL.

Then that is not a true BPA selection but based upon need.

Playoffs
12-18-2013, 02:00 PM
I don't care what the scheme is, you don't take a RT at 1-1..Can you guarantee Teddy & Clowney won't be busts? At this early point, I'd gauge that both have a significant bust potential compared to Matthews. I'd rather have the guy who's filling his spot nicely in 3 years versus a guy like Sam Bradford who I was "supposed" to draft in that slot but has you thinking about replacing him 3/4 years later.

If you don't think RT was important to Kubiak's offense this year you weren't watching Derek Newton*. Maybe RT will be less important in the new OC's offense, but I doubt it...

Examining Pressure: Are Left Tackles Overvalued? (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/04/29/examining-pressure-are-left-tackles-overvalued/)
...
Final Word

There’s a lot to digest here, but it can be summed up rather quickly. The right tackle should no longer be viewed as the athletic inferior to the left tackle and teams should change their team-building strategy to make this happen. Today’s passing NFL makes it a necessity to have two competent pass protectors on the edge and when scouting players, if a tackle is deemed to not be good enough to play left tackle, well you’re better off just putting him at guard rather than exploiting him at right tackle. There’s no hiding — defensive coordinators will find him.

* Derek Newton is rated 71st/78 OTs overall and 74th/78 in pass protection. (>25% snaps) by PFF (http://www.profootballfocus.com/).

I get the whole draft value argument, but I'd rather avoid Amobi Okoye over slot value. And I personally think RTs are pretty important pieces. At this point, though, it's all guesses on top of guesses imo.

Marcus
12-18-2013, 02:06 PM
There isn't an NFL starting QB on the roster right now. Does the fanbase really want to ride out 2014 with two great OTs and Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, McCown, or Sam Bradford at QB?

No, but I'm perfectly happy riding out 2014 with 2 great OTs, and QBs they get in the 2nd round.

Does the fanbase really want to ride out 2014 with a QB reach with the 1st overall pick?

Not me.

Dutchrudder
12-18-2013, 02:07 PM
I really don't think the Browns are trading up for the #1 pick. From what I have read, Mike Lombardi really likes Derek Carr, and he could be their pick, which probably won't require them moving up at all.

infantrycak
12-18-2013, 02:11 PM
This conversation probably fits better here:


As WolverineFan said in another thread why not take Bridgewater or Bortles 1st and then a RT 2nd?

Bridgewater is not Luck but Matthews is not Pace or Boselli either.

Which one is closer to that standard though? I think Matthews has a better chance of approaching Boselli than Bridgewater has of getting within spitting distance of Luck.

I'm hoping we get to deal out of the top spot and pick up a few extra picks along the way but if we don't then that's how I would do it.

Well the real question isn't two unattainables, it is the drop off in what is attainable.

So we have no Luck or Boselli in this draft. What is the drop off from Bridgewater/Bortles to Mettenberger v. Matthews to an Erving or Richardson?

There are rare exceptions but usually the drop off on QBs is a cliff whereas the drop off on OT's is a relative gentle slope. We're talking about getting another guy akin to Duane Brown v. getting one like Brock Osweiller, Jimmy Clauson, Pat White, etc. Virtually every year there are OTs taken after the top of the 2nd who pan out while only once in a while do the QBs pan out.

The reason I am not including Clowney in the discussion is primarily because of injury concern.

The1ApplePie
12-18-2013, 02:15 PM
Based on your hours of watching college tackles and research please identify the right tackle you would so easily find available at top of third that starts.

Can you identify a first round RT that didn't start his career as a failed LT? Guys like Fisher and Jockel played RT, but with the intent of moving them to left the following year. Weren't drafted to move to the money position five years later when the current franchise tackle got old, which seems to be a justification for taking Matthews.

Again, this board wouldn't even be considering an RT first overall if this name wasn't Matthews.

The1ApplePie
12-18-2013, 02:18 PM
No, but I'm perfectly happy riding out 2014 with 2 great OTs, and QBs they get in the 2nd round.

Does the fanbase really want to ride out 2014 with a QB reach with the 1st overall pick?

Not me.

A second round QB will most likely ride the bench for half a season, more if he is a raw developmental guy.

So, back to crappy veteran QB we go. If they do throw them in, we could have the next Clausen or Hennie.

Texian
12-18-2013, 02:26 PM
IMHO I don't think Mettenberger gets past #18. And with Houston, Jacksonville, Oakland, Cleveland, Tampa Bay, Minnesota and Tennessee all currently picking in the Top 10 I do doubt seriously if Mett gets out of the the Top 10.

infantrycak
12-18-2013, 02:28 PM
IMHO I don't think Mettenberger gets past #18. And with Houston, Jacksonville, Oakland, Cleveland, Tampa Bay, Minnesota and Tennessee all currently picking in the Top 10 I do doubt seriously if Mett gets out of the the Top 10.

How many QBs are you projecting in the first half of the 1st? and in the 1st overall?

Blake
12-18-2013, 02:34 PM
At this early point, I'd gauge that both have a significant bust potential compared to Matthews. I'd rather have the guy who's filling his spot nicely in 3 years versus a guy like Sam Bradford who I was "supposed" to draft in that slot but has you thinking about replacing him 3/4 years later.
I get the whole draft value argument, but I'd rather avoid Amobi Okoye over slot value. And I personally think RTs are pretty important pieces. At this point, though, it's all guesses on top of guesses imo.

I remember the same things being said about Robert Gallery. There are no guarantees in life. Taking a tackle over a QB or DE (especially this team) doesnt make alot of sense unless you have a crystal ball and can see the future.

Playoffs
12-18-2013, 02:35 PM
A second round QB will most likely ride the bench for half a season, more if he is a raw developmental guy...

Or he could be like Russell Wilson? :kitten:

It's a deep QB draft, you never know... Plus, whatever HC/OC we hire might be a guy who'll roll with a rookie.

Dutchrudder
12-18-2013, 02:47 PM
Can you guarantee Teddy & Clowney won't be busts? At this early point, I'd gauge that both have a significant bust potential compared to Matthews. I'd rather have the guy who's filling his spot nicely in 3 years versus a guy like Sam Bradford who I was "supposed" to draft in that slot but has you thinking about replacing him 3/4 years later.

If you don't think RT was important to Kubiak's offense this year you weren't watching Derek Newton*. Maybe RT will be less important in the new OC's offense, but I doubt it...

Examining Pressure: Are Left Tackles Overvalued? (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/04/29/examining-pressure-are-left-tackles-overvalued/)


* Derek Newton is rated 71st/78 OTs overall and 74th/78 in pass protection. (>25% snaps) by PFF (http://www.profootballfocus.com/).

I get the whole draft value argument, but I'd rather avoid Amobi Okoye over slot value. And I personally think RTs are pretty important pieces. At this point, though, it's all guesses on top of guesses imo.

I'm not saying RT isn't an important position, more that it's not worth a number 1 pick, or really a top 20 pick. If you guys want to spend a late 1st on it, I could go for that. But if we're talking about Matthews, then we are talking a top 5 pick at this point, and I think it's a waste to spend that kind of a pick on a guy who will be the de facto RT.

There's no question this organization has tried to address the RT position on the cheap. Derek Newton was a 7th round pick, Brenan Williams was a late 3rd with injury history, David Quessenberry (who may not be a OT in the NFL) was a 6th, Ryan Harris was a street FA that had a bad injury history, Rashad Butler was a late 3rd round pick FA that was OK, but not great.

But let's not get caught up in the fact that Smithiak couldn't fix the position, other teams address it without spending 1st round picks on it, and that's why I'm saying we should be able to do the same.

The Patriots current RT Marcus Cannon was a 5th round pick.
The Lions are tied this year for the least amount of sacks given up with 16 total, and their RT this year is UDFA LaAdrian Waddle from Texas Tech.
Up until last year, 4th round pick Jermon Bushrod was starting for the Saints. This week the Saints are starting rookie 2nd round pick Teron Armistead at LT, so we'll see how he does in action. Their current RT is 7th round pick Zach Strief.
The Bears have given up the 3rd least sacks this year, and they are starting rookie 5th round pick Jordan Mills at RT. Can you believe that? A team with Jay Cutler at QB is giving up the 3rd least sacks in the league. Crazy...

Other teams address RT on the cheap through Free Agency. The Colts got Gosder Cherilus, the Rams got Jake Long, the Ravens picked up Bryant McKinnie (2 years 7m) for their Super Bowl run last year. It's really not that uncommon, and teams do have success with it.

I could go on, but my point is that RT really shouldn't require a 1st round pick to be a competent player. If we can't do that with our 3-1 pick or later, then we need a new GM. If Duane Brown was in the last year of his deal, I would be much more open to the idea, but he's not. He's here for the next few years, so we don't need a LT in waiting.

Texian
12-18-2013, 02:56 PM
How many QBs are you projecting in the first half of the 1st? and in the 1st overall?

If Bortles and Bridgewater declare I expect there gone. Add Manziel, Carr and Mettenberger as possible 1st half and/or 1st rd QBs and Murray and McCarron as potential 1st RD QBs. With the exceptions of Newton in 2011 and Luck & Griffin in 2012 the 2014 is shaping up to be a better overall QB class than the 11 draft and as good as the 12 draft. In those drafts 4 QBs where selected in the first rd. Being that the 2013 was such a poor draft for QBs the 2014 shaping up as bigger than normal and a better than average class of QBs, this could be a catchup draft on QBs for teams needing a QB. 7 of the top 10 teams could use a QB so this could be a top heavy QB draft. and with that I think I have covered all the bases. I can see teams like Arizona, Chicago and Cleveland trading up in RD 1 for a QB. And the Jets having a do over.

bah007
12-18-2013, 02:57 PM
How many QBs are you projecting in the first half of the 1st? and in the 1st overall?

Question wasn't directed at me but I'll give my opinion. The ranges are very wide because all it takes is one team to fall in love and take a guy high.

Bridgewater - Top 3
Bortles - Between 3-15
Mettenberger - Between 10-25
Carr - Between 10-35
Manziel - Between 15-40
McCarron - Between 30-45
Hundley - I think he goes back to school. But I think he would go in the top half of the 2nd.
Boyd - 2nd round

Everyone else is 3rd round or later. Murray may sneak into the 2nd if Hundley goes back to school.

I could see a max of three QBs going in the top 15 and four going in the top 20. Four or five total going in the first round.

Bridgewater, Bortles, and Mettenberger all as first round locks. Carr a highly likely first rounder. That's four. So five if Manziel slides in.

Texian
12-18-2013, 02:58 PM
I remember the same things being said about Robert Gallery. There are no guarantees in life. Taking a tackle over a QB or DE (especially this team) doesnt make alot of sense unless you have a crystal ball and can see the future.

The lesson to be learned about Robert Gallery is don't draft OL with little feet, they can't anchor.

Hervoyel
12-18-2013, 02:58 PM
What's the point of having a RT if he has no one worth protecting?

What's the point in having the first pick if you can't confidently draft an above average (at least) starter at multiple positions?

What's the point in drafting if you aren't willing to take a little risk?

We have been drafting ****ty in the later rounds for years. Most teams find their RT in free agency or later rounds of the draft. There's no reason why the Texans can't do that, or shouldn't try. You rarely see a team spend 2 first round picks on both tackle positions, because it's just too damn much to spend on a position that should be filled for less resources. If you can't find a competent RT in rounds 3-1 though 7 then you need a new GM (which I am in favor of!).

Think of it this way, how much does the average RT cost in the NFL? How much dose the average strong-side pass rusher cost? How much does the average QB cost?

Figure out where to spend picks based on scarcity and costs so you don't over-allocate resources to one position. Picking Matthews, IMO, is overallocating resources to the OT position. It would be a reactionary pick due to the poor play at RT, rather than a calculated pick based on salary-cap football.

You can get someone worth protecting in the second round. Your RT (and future LT) can protect that guy and guys who come in the years after (if that proves necessary) for years to come. This RT/LT comes from a family of NFL players with epic longevity and quality.

You insist on looking at Matthews at 1-1 as a pick for a RT and wasted opportunity right now when in reality it's an investment in two positions (one now and the other later). You still have three positions on the line that are filled with your late-round bargain guys. You will lose Duane Brown at some point and when you do you'll slide Matthews over to take his place.

It's the safe play and if the trade down isn't there (which I would very much like to see. This is a draft with no clear 1-1 player) then I think it's a good pick. By the time you're having to pay Matthews what he's worth you'll probably be seeing Duane Brown go out the door for more money or Duane Brown in decline and pointing him toward the door.

You want to gamble on the guy you take in the first round. I would prefer to gamble on the guy I take in the second round. Granted it's all a gamble to some degree and we both know that.

Marcus
12-18-2013, 02:59 PM
I'm not saying RT isn't an important position, more that it's not worth a number 1 pick, or really a top 20 pick. If you guys want to spend a late 1st on it, I could go for that. But if we're talking about Matthews, then we are talking a top 5 pick at this point, and I think it's a waste to spend that kind of a pick on a guy who will be the de facto RT.

There's no question this organization has tried to address the RT position on the cheap. Derek Newton was a 7th round pick, Brenan Williams was a late 3rd with injury history, David Quessenberry (who may not be a OT in the NFL) was a 6th, Ryan Harris was a street FA that had a bad injury history, Rashad Butler was a late 3rd round pick FA that was OK, but not great.

But let's not get caught up in the fact that Smithiak couldn't fix the position, other teams address it without spending 1st round picks on it, and that's why I'm saying we should be able to do the same.

The Patriots Matt Light and Sebastian Vollmer were both mid-2nd picks.
The Lions are tied this year for the least amount of sacks given up with 16 total, and their RT this year is UDFA LaAdrian Waddle from Texas Tech.
Up until last year, 4th round pick Jermon Bushrod was starting for the Saints. This week the Saints are starting rookie 2nd round pick Teron Armistead at LT, so we'll see how he does in action. Their current RT is 7th round pick Zach Strief.
The Bears have given up the 3rd least sacks this year, and they are starting rookie 5th round pick Jordan Mills at RT. Can you believe that? A team with Jay Cutler at QB is giving up the 3rd least sacks in the league. Crazy...

Other teams address RT on the cheap through Free Agency. The Colts got Gosder Cherilus, the Rams got Jake Long, the Ravens picked up Bryant McKinnie (2 years 7m) for their Super Bowl run last year. It's really not that uncommon, and teams do have success with it.

I could go on, but my point is that RT really shouldn't require a 1st round pick to be a competent player. If we can't do that with our 3-1 pick or later, then we need a new GM. If Duane Brown was in the last year of his deal, I would be much more open to the idea, but he's not. He's here for the next few years, so we don't need a LT in waiting.

I get all of that. Bet you seem to missing the point that you take the BPA on the board, no matter what the position is.

Answer me this. Why would you want to risk reaching for a QB with the 1st overall, if you think Rick Smith is as bad as you say he is? Why would you want to reach for a player at all with the 1st pick?

Playoffs
12-18-2013, 03:09 PM
http://walterfootball.com/draft2014.php
1. Houston Texans: Teddy Bridgewater, QB, Louisville

I wrote this in my NFL Power Rankings regarding the No. 1 pick: Mel Kiper appeared on Sunday NFL Countdown and said that the No. 1 overall pick will come down to three players: Jadeveon Clowney, Anthony Barr and Jake Matthews. If the 2014 NFL Draft were held today, Clowney would probably be the pick. But this reminds me of the 2011 NFL Draft. Both Kiper and Todd McShay thought a defensive lineman would be the top choice (Kiper said Nick Fairley, while McShay suggested Da'Quan Bowers), yet the Panthers ultimately fell in love with Cam Newton.

The same thing will probably happen to the Texans unless they sign Jay Cutler or trade for Kirk Cousins. Houston will have five months to become smitten with Teddy Bridgewater, Blake Bortles, Derek Carr (probably not because of David's failure), Johnny Manziel or even Brett Hundley. One of those signal-callers will probably be the No. 1 pick.

Given how important the quarterback position is, Teddy Bridgewater or another signal-caller will the No. 1 pick in the 2014 NFL Draft, barring an acquisition of Cutler or Cousins, or something like that. There's really no discussion. Clowney, Barr and Matthews wouldn't get Houston's franchise back into the playoffs. A franchise quarterback would. The Texans will talk themselves into drafting one of them.

Dutchrudder
12-18-2013, 03:16 PM
I get all of that. Bet you seem to missing the point that you take the BPA on the board, no matter what the position is.

Answer me this. Why would you want to risk reaching for a QB with the 1st overall, if you think Rick Smith is as bad as you say he is? Why would you want to reach for a player at all with the 1st pick?

You seem to be missing the point where I never said you had to take BPA no matter what the position is. That may be your draft philosophy, but it's not mine and I wouldn't advocate it because no one would ever follow that 100% of the time anyways. You have to be able to weigh BPA vs Need and find a happy-medium.

Who said it had to be a QB at 1-1? I'd rather have Jadaveon Clowney, a top notch freak athlete pass-rushing prospect, than a RT (be it Matthews or Lewan or whomever). If Bridgewater grades out as a top 5 pick, and is expected to be a franchise NFL QB, then yeah, I'd take him. Why reach a few picks for a RT, when you can reach about the same relative amount of draft slots for a QB?

I don't really care if someone has the QB rated as a 92, but 4 other players are rated a 93-95. The QB position trumps all in this era of the NFL. If he's your guy, you take him, whether the draftniks think he should be the 1st pick, 10th pick, or 50th pick. It's only a "reach" based on a bunch of peoples projections at this point, but if the guy works out, then in retrospect it won't be a reach, and it won't really matter. It's even more of a gamble to trade back a few picks, expecting your guy to be there, only to have him taken a slot ahead of you because you got cute with the draft board projections.

We still have a lot of evaluating to go, but regardless of what these guys do in the combine, I think taking a RT in the top 20 is a waste. We need a QB or pass rusher with our first pick, there are plenty to grade and evaluate before we settle on one. Those are the two premium positions in this league, and what I think we should be spending our highest pick on.

infantrycak
12-18-2013, 03:21 PM
Question wasn't directed at me but I'll give my opinion. The ranges are very wide because all it takes is one team to fall in love and take a guy high.

Bridgewater - Top 3
Bortles - Between 3-15
Mettenberger - Between 10-25
Carr - Between 10-35
Manziel - Between 15-40
McCarron - Between 30-45
Hundley - I think he goes back to school. But I think he would go in the top half of the 2nd.
Boyd - 2nd round

Everyone else is 3rd round or later. Murray may sneak into the 2nd if Hundley goes back to school.

I could see a max of three QBs going in the top 15 and four going in the top 20. Four or five total going in the first round.

Bridgewater, Bortles, and Mettenberger all as first round locks. Carr a highly likely first rounder. That's four. So five if Manziel slides in.

That looks far more likely to me. You have to go back 31 years to find a 6 QB 1st round and there has only been 1 5 QB draft since. The 6 QB draft wasn't one where there were questions whether any of them would be franchise QBs, it was an incredible talent draft with 3 future HOFers taken. That includes several years following QB poor drafts to where none were taken in the 1st. Four is a heavy QB draft.

IF all these QBs are taken then the talent at OT and elsewhere will get pushed down.

bah007
12-18-2013, 03:28 PM
That looks far more likely to me. You have to go back 31 years to find a 6 QB 1st round and there has only been 1 5 QB draft since. The 6 QB draft wasn't one where there were questions whether any of them would be franchise QBs, it was an incredible talent draft with 3 future HOFers taken. That includes several years following QB poor drafts to where none were taken in the 1st. Four is a heavy QB draft.

IF all these QBs are taken then the talent at OT and elsewhere will get pushed down.

I think it's highly likely that Bridgewater and Bortles both go top 10. Mettenberger goes top 20. And Carr goes at the end of the 1st.

Once the top two guys are gone teams are going to be more likely to go BPA and wait it out and try for a QB in the 2nd unless they are just smitten with a certain prospect. Manziel is the wildcard. He could be the 3rd QB or the 6th QB off the board.

Marcus
12-18-2013, 03:54 PM
http://walterfootball.com/draft2014.php

That just depresses the ever loving crap out of me, because I fear that is exactly what's gonna happen. :crying:

b0ng
12-18-2013, 04:23 PM
That looks far more likely to me. You have to go back 31 years to find a 6 QB 1st round and there has only been 1 5 QB draft since. The 6 QB draft wasn't one where there were questions whether any of them would be franchise QBs, it was an incredible talent draft with 3 future HOFers taken. That includes several years following QB poor drafts to where none were taken in the 1st. Four is a heavy QB draft.

IF all these QBs are taken then the talent at OT and elsewhere will get pushed down.

You have to take into account that QB contracts are extremely cheap in the draft now, thanks to the new CBA. They also include a team friendly 5th year option if they are drafted in the first round (I believe). I think this is going to lead to more questionable QB picks in the first round than previous years. Hell there were 4 QB's taken in 2010 (Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder) and for the most part, leading up to that draft most people figured that it might come down to Newton vs Gabbert but that it wasn't really that standout of a class.

WolverineFan
12-18-2013, 04:31 PM
You can get someone worth protecting in the second round.

Can you? Certainly. But the odds are not in your favor.


You want to gamble on the guy you take in the first round. I would prefer to gamble on the guy I take in the second round. Granted it's all a gamble to some degree and we both know that.

Passing on Bridgewater in the 1st to take Mettenberger/McCarron/etc in the 2nd is just as much a gamble as just drafting Bridgewater.

Matthews seems to be the key here. Many people would like Matthews + another QB than Bridgewater + another OT. I don't see much difference between Matthews and the other OT's available.

infantrycak
12-18-2013, 04:31 PM
You have to take into account that QB contracts are extremely cheap in the draft now, thanks to the new CBA.

That really only affects the top 10 picks and applies to all positions. You could equally say teams are now freed up to take positions they wouldn't have considered before in the top 10 because of the expense. For instance there wouldn't even be a conversation about Matthews under the old cba unless he was going to play LT immediately.

DexmanC
12-18-2013, 05:19 PM
Tradayveon Clowney could be better than Mario Williams, who was a #1 overall selection; or, he could be Glenn Dorsey, who was drafted 5th overall and has 6 QB sacks in 6 seasons.

The draft is a crap shoot. I'd aim for a QB, because if it hits, your team will win year-in-and-year-out.

badboy
12-18-2013, 06:06 PM
I think it should be remembered that Texans desperately needing a LT were willing to gamble and trade down with risk of still getting a OT a few years ago. I remember Kubiak saying that he had left the room & upon returning discovered the GM was considering another trade down & Kubiak insisted on pulling the deal for Brown. Yes, there has to be a team willing to trade but with our needs we should be able to negotiate enough to better the team. A trade does not have to be RG3 type to be beneficial for both teams.

infantrycak
12-18-2013, 06:24 PM
I think it should be remembered that Texans desperately needing a LT were willing to gamble and trade down with risk of still getting a OT a few years ago. I remember Kubiak saying that he had left the room & upon returning discovered the GM was considering another trade down & Kubiak insisted on pulling the deal for Brown. Yes, there has to be a team willing to trade but with our needs we should be able to negotiate enough to better the team. A trade does not have to be RG3 type to be beneficial for both teams.

You need to discuss that with Texian. He has it on reliable speculation that Gibbs had full control on that pick in his contract.

WolverineFan
12-18-2013, 06:30 PM
Yes, there has to be a team willing to trade but with our needs we should be able to negotiate enough to better the team. A trade does not have to be RG3 type to be beneficial for both teams.

Agreed. We don't have to steal three 1st round picks off a team for the trade to be successful. If we don't like anybody at #1, we could trade back to #6 or so and take the #38 this year and a 2nd next year. People will look at the draft value chart and say we cheated ourselves, but the value of the pick is all about the talent available in the draft. Trading back 5 spots (from a spot you already don't want to be in) and grabbing an extra 2nd this year and a 2nd next year is a huge win for me. I could care less what the "value" chart says about it.

Texian
12-18-2013, 06:45 PM
You need to discuss that with Texian. He has it on reliable speculation that Gibbs had full control on that pick in his contract.

That's a fact Cak! It was Gibbs decision to draft Brown. Haven't you heard the Texans FO has been complaining and bellyaching to NFLN that the coaches have had to much say in the draft?

steelbtexan
12-18-2013, 07:54 PM
If I truly think Bortles is a franchise guy then I take him #1. Why would you trade picks this year and your 1st next year for a guy that you could just take #1?

I still don't understand that scenario and you've laid it out many times before. You can use your 1st this year on a QB or you can use your 2nd this year and 1st next year on a QB. Why would you choose the 2nd option?

Because BoB wants to win now.

By doing a trade like this you have the abilty to fill the 2 hardest positions there are to fill on a team in one draft. QB/Pass Rusher. If you hit on those picks and add in Watt you become a dominant team for the next decade and overtake Indy/Luck at the top of the division. Rick has to take chances to catch up with Luck/Indy. With that said,

I wouldn't draft a QB this yr if it was me. I would wait until the loaded 2015 QB draft. The way I see it Rick has these options

1. The option stated above
2 trade down, best option if a trade partner can be found.
3. Sign a vet QB like Campbell to compete with Keenum and draft a QB in 2015. The best option, IMHO
4. Reach for Bridgewater, the worst option. IMHO

Uncle Rico
12-18-2013, 08:07 PM
If I'm not mistaken, but isnt Matthews one of the reasons Manziel has been getting his **** pushed inwards this year? I dont keep up with college OL 'grades', and I understand the kid is 1st team all american (popularity contest?) but the same was said about Joeckel (sp) about how he was a cant miss, and yada yada yada, but he hasnt been doing much in the pro's. i get the sentimental attachment to #74's son, but he is as much a 'lock' as anyone else. Linemen flop too, it isnt just relegated to QB's, and if the financial downfall isnt what it once was to take a gamble on a top pick then shoot for the stars.

Franchise QB's win games regardless of who's blocking up front. They make mediocre linemen look like all pro's.

steelbtexan
12-18-2013, 08:14 PM
Tradayveon Clowney could be better than Mario Williams, who was a #1 overall selection; or, he could be Glenn Dorsey, who was drafted 5th overall and has 6 QB sacks in 6 seasons.

The draft is a crap shoot. I'd aim for a QB, because if it hits, your team will win year-in-and-year-out.

Agreed

If I thought Bridgewater was a franchise QB. If you miss on Bridgewater you set the franchise back for a decade. (5 yrs of Bridgewater and 3 to 5 yrs before the next QB you draft gets enough experience to be a possible SB winning QB in a best case scenerio, if you hit on the next QB.)

This pick is going to set the tone for the next decade. Are the Texans going to rebuild with substance, or are they going to build their team on fluff and PR like they did with Carr? This is where Rick earns his $$$$. (I have little faith in teflon Rick Smith being able to do a good job. Much less a great job, which is what it will take if the Texans want to become a Steelers/Pats type franchise)

Slick Rick knows how to play the game though. (Godfather to BoB's grandson kept his job despite his poor past performance) Good job Rick

TexansSeminole
12-18-2013, 08:36 PM
If I'm not mistaken, but isnt Matthews one of the reasons Manziel has been getting his **** pushed inwards this year? I dont keep up with college OL 'grades', and I understand the kid is 1st team all american (popularity contest?) but the same was said about Joeckel (sp) about how he was a cant miss, and yada yada yada, but he hasnt been doing much in the pro's. i get the sentimental attachment to #74's son, but he is as much a 'lock' as anyone else. Linemen flop too, it isnt just relegated to QB's, and if the financial downfall isnt what it once was to take a gamble on a top pick then shoot for the stars.

Franchise QB's win games regardless of who's blocking up front. They make mediocre linemen look like all pro's.

Tons of fail in this post.

Matthews hasn't been a problem this year. I watched some tape on him from www.draftbreakdown.com and he did well. You can spend a few hours watching his tape and come to the same conclusion. He hasn't been a problem, but there is definitely an argument worth having on whether or not he is a #1 overall.

Joeckel got hurt this year in October, he's out for the season.

steelbtexan
12-18-2013, 09:52 PM
I'm not saying RT isn't an important position, more that it's not worth a number 1 pick, or really a top 20 pick. If you guys want to spend a late 1st on it, I could go for that. But if we're talking about Matthews, then we are talking a top 5 pick at this point, and I think it's a waste to spend that kind of a pick on a guy who will be the de facto RT.

There's no question this organization has tried to address the RT position on the cheap. Derek Newton was a 7th round pick, Brenan Williams was a late 3rd with injury history, David Quessenberry (who may not be a OT in the NFL) was a 6th, Ryan Harris was a street FA that had a bad injury history, Rashad Butler was a late 3rd round pick FA that was OK, but not great.

But let's not get caught up in the fact that Smithiak couldn't fix the position, other teams address it without spending 1st round picks on it, and that's why I'm saying we should be able to do the same.

The Patriots current RT Marcus Cannon was a 5th round pick.
The Lions are tied this year for the least amount of sacks given up with 16 total, and their RT this year is UDFA LaAdrian Waddle from Texas Tech.
Up until last year, 4th round pick Jermon Bushrod was starting for the Saints. This week the Saints are starting rookie 2nd round pick Teron Armistead at LT, so we'll see how he does in action. Their current RT is 7th round pick Zach Strief.
The Bears have given up the 3rd least sacks this year, and they are starting rookie 5th round pick Jordan Mills at RT. Can you believe that? A team with Jay Cutler at QB is giving up the 3rd least sacks in the league. Crazy...

Other teams address RT on the cheap through Free Agency. The Colts got Gosder Cherilus, the Rams got Jake Long, the Ravens picked up Bryant McKinnie (2 years 7m) for their Super Bowl run last year. It's really not that uncommon, and teams do have success with it.

I could go on, but my point is that RT really shouldn't require a 1st round pick to be a competent player. If we can't do that with our 3-1 pick or later, then we need a new GM. If Duane Brown was in the last year of his deal, I would be much more open to the idea, but he's not. He's here for the next few years, so we don't need a LT in waiting.

Pointing out more of Rick's failures. There are several OT's that should be massive upgrades at 3-1. (My favorite Moses, James, BB's favorite, Mewhort etc...)

And yes, the Texans do need a new GM.

badboy
12-18-2013, 10:06 PM
If I'm not mistaken, but isnt Matthews one of the reasons Manziel has been getting his **** pushed inwards this year? I dont keep up with college OL 'grades', and I understand the kid is 1st team all american (popularity contest?) but the same was said about Joeckel (sp) about how he was a cant miss, and yada yada yada, but he hasnt been doing much in the pro's. i get the sentimental attachment to #74's son, but he is as much a 'lock' as anyone else. Linemen flop too, it isnt just relegated to QB's, and if the financial downfall isnt what it once was to take a gamble on a top pick then shoot for the stars.

Franchise QB's win games regardless of who's blocking up front. They make mediocre linemen look like all pro's."12/7/13: "Matthews had a superb senior season. His pass protection for Johnny Manziel was rock steady. Manziel didn't make it easy with the way he holds onto the ball for long periods of time and scrambles into defenders. Matthews was a quality run blocker, but he isn't overwhelming in the ground game. He doesn't play with a mean streak, and the same thing was said about Luke Joeckel last year. Matthews has proven to be a franchise left tackle for the NFL. "

http://walterfootball.com/draft2014OT.php

SW H-TOWN
12-18-2013, 10:08 PM
Yep and there isn't a franchise QB available in this draft. IMHO So do you want to force the QB pick and set this franchise back another decade like Casserly did with Carr?

2015 is when the franchise QB's are coming out. The Texans should be doing everything they can to position themselves to get one at that time. Of course BoB/Rick cant see that far ahead.

No, I do not want another Carr situation. If the FO believes that there is not a franchise QB in the draft I would attempt to obtain one in FA but pickings are really slim. This QB class is pretty deep and I personally believe that at least one of them will be a franchise QB. You got Bridgewater, Bortles, and Hundley if they declare. McCarron, Boyd, and Manziel will also be available as well as several others. It is not a given that Winston will come out next year either, example Luck. The thing is that the organization will have to scout the hell out of all of them and pick the right one. Drafting a QB is always risky but is worth the risk due to the importance of the position. I'm not saying that we have to pick a QB with our first pick but we have to draft one in the first 3 rounds IMO. Hopefully we find one that we think is capable of leading this team and we are right.

Number19
12-18-2013, 10:13 PM
At this point in time we're just pissin' in the wind. And a trade with the Browns may indeed be unrealistic, but it does show the possibilities. I get the impression that a lot of you don't fully grasp the value inherent in a 1-1.

Because of their extra picks, the Browns would essentially be giving up only a second to get the 1-1.

The Browns would end up with 1-1, 3-5 and all later picks.

The Texans would have, through round 3, 1-5, 1-24, 2-1, 2-5 and 3-1. They would give up 3,000 points in exchange for 2,970 points.

For those of you so adamant on taking a QB in the 1st, you have pick 1-24; and for those wanting to go in another direction than QB, at 1-5 you have a chance at Barr, Mathews or someone else.

Of course you have to have the willing trade partner, but put me down with the group that believes there is just to much value to be gained by trading down to pass this scenario up.

steelbtexan
12-18-2013, 10:18 PM
Can you? Certainly. But the odds are not in your favor.




Passing on Bridgewater in the 1st to take Mettenberger/McCarron/etc in the 2nd is just as much a gamble as just drafting Bridgewater.

Matthews seems to be the key here. Many people would like Matthews + another QB than Bridgewater + another OT. I don't see much difference between Matthews and the other OT's available.

I dont see much any or think Bridgewater is as good potentially as Mettenberger/Bortles they have better arms, or Manziel same mobility/arm strength as Bridgewater. Manziel has just as good a chance to be an all pro as Bridgewater.

BTW, I want Clowney or Barr 1-1.

SW H-TOWN
12-18-2013, 10:20 PM
I would be OK with

Rd.1 Clowney/Barr
Rd.2 Bortles/Manziel/Mettenberger
Rd.3 Morgan Moses/James/Mewhort

That's value picks.

I would love that but I think that Bortles will be gone in the first. Manziel would be a great value pick in the 2nd.

badboy
12-18-2013, 10:28 PM
Pointing out more of Rick's failures. There are several OT's that should be massive upgrades at 3-1. (My favorite Moses, James, BB's favorite, Mewhort etc...)

And yes, the Texans do need a new GM.I am concerned about Mewhorts' athleticism. I see him more of a OG than RT and in a non ZBS offense.

Moses is an intriguing prospect who averaged 8 knockdowns per game IIRC but is a weight concern despite his ability to kick to side. He would have better prospects if Texans go to different offense. He could be a Brooks type player but is not a starter first season.

steelbtexan
12-18-2013, 10:33 PM
I would love that but I think that Bortles will be gone in the first. Manziel would be a great value pick in the 2nd.

You could probably trade up to 22-25 and get one using a 2-1 and a 2015 2nd rd pick. Kinda like the trade for Schaub.

I really hope they trade up for Mettenberger, he will probably fall to 18-25 due to the ACL thing.

badboy
12-18-2013, 10:35 PM
At this point in time we're just pissin' in the wind. And a trade with the Browns may indeed be unrealistic, but it does show the possibilities. I get the impression that a lot of you don't fully grasp the value inherent in a 1-1.

Because of their extra picks, the Browns would essentially be giving up only a second to get the 1-1.

The Browns would end up with 1-1, 3-5 and all later picks.

The Texans would have, through round 3, 1-5, 1-24, 2-1, 2-5 and 3-1. They would give up 3,000 points in exchange for 2,970 points.

For those of you so adamant on taking a QB in the 1st, you have pick 1-24; and for those wanting to go in another direction than QB, at 1-5 you have a chance at Barr, Mathews or someone else.

Of course you have to have the willing trade partner, but put me down with the group that believes there is just to much value to be gained by trading down to pass this scenario up.
I disagree on your contention that Browns would be losing only their second rounder "essentially". They have a second first round that they can use if no trade so you cannot just disregard that. I would accept your trade but to be honest would probably prefer their two thirds than their second but want to research a bit.

steelbtexan
12-18-2013, 10:39 PM
I am concerned about Mewhorts' athleticism. I see him more of a OG than RT and in a non ZBS offense.

Moses is an intriguing prospect who averaged 8 knockdowns per game IIRC but is a weight concern despite his ability to kick to side. He would have better prospects if Texans go to different offense. He could be a Brooks type player but is not a starter first season.

Moses has played LT/RT/RG in his career. I've watched him many times and he's comparable to James. The reason I've got him rated higher than James is his versatility.

I can see where you're coming from comparing him to Brooks. Both are huge tough guys who move well. Difference is Moses has performed very well against ACC comp and is in shape, although huge.

Number19
12-18-2013, 10:47 PM
I was just graphically showing one possibility of a trade, and the inherent value in trading down from the 1-1 pick, with a team which had previously been mentioned on this thread. Like I said, we're just pissin' in the wind and who knows what will develop as we approach draft day - and this includes our coaching change.

badboy
12-18-2013, 11:11 PM
Moses has played LT/RT/RG in his career. I've watched him many times and he's comparable to James. The reason I've got him rated higher than James is his versatility.

I can see where you're coming from comparing him to Brooks. Both are huge tough guys who move well. Difference is Moses has performed very well against ACC comp and is in shape, although huge.Thanks good info. My understanding is Moses has kept weight under control this season. Would hate to see him in same doghouse that Brooks found himself in. James is a RT only.

beerlover
12-18-2013, 11:40 PM
Then that is not a true BPA selection but based upon need.

ask yourself why are QB's taken so high when they're not the "quote" BPA? or that QB position is the highest paid amongst all positions on average in the NFL. add it all up & you might just come up with a better formula to determine "BPA" :pinned:

badboy
12-18-2013, 11:55 PM
ask yourself why are QB's taken so high when they're not the "quote" BPA? or that QB position is the highest paid amongst all positions on average in the NFL. add it all up & you might just come up with a better formula to determine "BPA" :pinned:and that is why I' m not a BPA guy for most part. QBs are what most fans associate with as the "leader" that most want to see themselves as. QBs are always in the spotlight as they touch ball every down. No doubt they are most important player on team. I just hope you are correct and I'm not on Bridgewater as I think strong chance he is 1-1.

beerlover
12-19-2013, 01:30 AM
and that is why I' m not a BPA guy for most part. QBs are what most fans associate with as the "leader" that most want to see themselves as. QBs are always in the spotlight as they touch ball every down. No doubt they are most important player on team. I just hope you are correct and I'm not on Bridgewater as I think strong chance he is 1-1.

but don't you see that invariably QB is BPA, if for no other reason supply & demand which creates best player available in first place. Joeckel was a superior LT to Jake, on the same team & Joeckel was secondary in LT rankings to Fisher (2013 draft). To say Matthews is now #1 rated prospect in this draft is dubious at best, these rankings are arbitrary & open to discussion, which is why this forum exists.

Texian
12-19-2013, 10:57 AM
Agreed. We don't have to steal three 1st round picks off a team for the trade to be successful. If we don't like anybody at #1, we could trade back to #6 or so and take the #38 this year and a 2nd next year. People will look at the draft value chart and say we cheated ourselves, but the value of the pick is all about the talent available in the draft. Trading back 5 spots (from a spot you already don't want to be in) and grabbing an extra 2nd this year and a 2nd next year is a huge win for me. I could care less what the "value" chart says about it.

If the #1 pick in the NFL draft is only worth two 2nd RD picks, odds are that no team will be wanting to trade up to #1.

badboy
12-19-2013, 11:10 AM
but don't you see that invariably QB is BPA, if for no other reason supply & demand which creates best player available in first place. Joeckel was a superior LT to Jake, on the same team & Joeckel was secondary in LT rankings to Fisher (2013 draft). To say Matthews is now #1 rated prospect in this draft is dubious at best, these rankings are arbitrary & open to discussion, which is why this forum exists.If we are going to use a source and both you and I use ESPN, then we cannot then say it is dubious. We may disagree but that is opinion just as is ESPN's. QB is not always BPA and I think this draft supports that. Both Matthews and Mosely are better if you include risk factor and Barr is equal to Bridgewater.

I think need (supply and demand) does create BPA which is not same as being the best player.

WolverineFan
12-19-2013, 11:38 AM
If the #1 pick in the NFL draft is only worth two 2nd RD picks, odds are that no team will be wanting to trade up to #1.

We could obviously get more than that, but I was painting the picture that a trade out of #1 can still be beneficial for us even if we don't land the RGIII-type deal that everyone wants to happen.

I don't think anyone will be willing to trade up to #1 though. I think they might trade up if we are desperate to trade out, but in that scenario we aren't going to get the best end of the deal because other teams will know they have the leverage.

badboy
12-19-2013, 11:42 AM
A team could want Clowney or Barr so the focus does not have to be on a QB especially with all the steam about Bortles being a high pick.

beerlover
12-19-2013, 02:26 PM
If we are going to use a source and both you and I use ESPN, then we cannot then say it is dubious. We may disagree but that is opinion just as is ESPN's. QB is not always BPA and I think this draft supports that. Both Matthews and Mosely are better if you include risk factor and Barr is equal to Bridgewater.

I think need (supply and demand) does create BPA which is not same as being the best player.

I use ourlads scouting services, not perfect but reliable enough & while I didn't agree with them last year, their BPA was a QB. Go figure. There are exceptions like Calvin Johnson & Mario Williams but generally a QB deemed to be franchise worthy trumps all.

badboy
12-19-2013, 02:35 PM
I use ourlads scouting services, not perfect but reliable enough & while I didn't agree with them last year, their BPA was a QB. Go figure. There are exceptions like Calvin Johnson & Mario Williams but generally a QB deemed to be franchise worthy trumps all.Definitely agree. Unfortunately that does not apply in this draft. lol Reminds me of our old debates for 3 Amigos mocks.

infantrycak
12-19-2013, 07:24 PM
Definitely agree. Unfortunately that does not apply in this draft. lol Reminds me of our old debates for 3 Amigos mocks.

Not really directed to you.

How many QBs are in the league right now you would consider franchise guys who were drafted after the top half of the 2nd round?

Brady - no doubt, frankly falls into the blind damn luck category.
Russell Wilson - sure looks like it so far.
Nick Foles - again, sure looks good so far.

Now how many have been drafted in that time period?

There have been 25 drafted in the bottom half of the 2nd or the 3rd in that time frame. Figured going all the way down to the 6th would be goofy. That's 2 out of 25.

The drop off in waiting a round has to be considered.

Marshall
12-19-2013, 08:37 PM
"Jane, you ignorant slut!"

This draft is rich with QB's.... Just sayin'....

I mean after all Derek Carr would be available... :kitten:

Rich with good QBs is not the same as rich in elite QBs.

WolverineFan
12-19-2013, 08:55 PM
Not really directed to you.

How many QBs are in the league right now you would consider franchise guys who were drafted after the top half of the 2nd round?

Brady - no doubt, frankly falls into the blind damn luck category.
Russell Wilson - sure looks like it so far.
Nick Foles - again, sure looks good so far.

Now how many have been drafted in that time period?

There have been 25 drafted in the bottom half of the 2nd or the 3rd in that time frame. Figured going all the way down to the 6th would be goofy. That's 2 out of 25.

The drop off in waiting a round has to be considered.

Great post and that's exactly what I've been trying to explain for the past 2 weeks.

Can you find a franchise QB in the 2nd or 3rd round? Yes. But the odds are nowhere near as good as the 1st round. Talk about 1st round busts all you want, but the success rate is far higher for 1st round picks.

beerlover
12-19-2013, 09:11 PM
Definitely agree. Unfortunately that does not apply in this draft. lol Reminds me of our old debates for 3 Amigos mocks.

Geno Smith was OLads highest graded player last years draft. I would grade Bridgewater, Bortles & Manziel as better pro prospects. IF Texans do not get one of those three I believe they've wasted an opportunity to grab their franchise QB. Therefore if you feel good about all three I would consider trading down but not past the "3" spot :texflag:

Scooter
12-19-2013, 09:18 PM
Not really directed to you.

How many QBs are in the league right now you would consider franchise guys who were drafted after the top half of the 2nd round?

Brady - no doubt, frankly falls into the blind damn luck category.
Russell Wilson - sure looks like it so far.
Nick Foles - again, sure looks good so far.

Now how many have been drafted in that time period?

There have been 25 drafted in the bottom half of the 2nd or the 3rd in that time frame. Figured going all the way down to the 6th would be goofy. That's 2 out of 25.

The drop off in waiting a round has to be considered.

how many quarterbacks today would you consider franchise? since 2004 it's been very hit or miss with the first overall ... eli manning, alex smith, jamarcus russell, matt stafford, sam bradford, cam newton, and andrew luck. it gets ugly before then. brees and rodgers were late firsts, kaepernick should be mentioned, andy dalton, tony romo, ben went 11th, and so on. unless you're the colts, the elite level quarterback isnt landed on with the first pick, it's a very talented player that's built upon.

Corrosion
12-19-2013, 09:58 PM
BPA for Texans has to be a QB they can insert into starting role & become face of the franchise.

There has to be one of those guys in the draft for that to happen ..... Im not sold on the fact that there is one.

If you take one anyhow and he's a bust .... there will be ALL PRO's and ProBowlers taken behind that bust of a QB .... Tell me again that's BPA !!

(that's a hypothetical post)

JB
12-19-2013, 10:56 PM
There has to be one of those guys in the draft for that to happen ..... Im not sold on the fact that there is one.

If you take one anyhow and he's a bust .... there will be ALL PRO's and ProBowlers taken behind that bust of a QB .... Tell me again that's BPA !!

(that's a hypothetical post)

You have to take the player that is going to help your franchise the most. Not the top ranked nationally media darling du jour.

If that is a qb then awesome. If not, that is awesome also. Go pick a Watt and not an Okoye

beerlover
12-19-2013, 11:04 PM
I really like Oregon CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu. For his position I would grade him on level playing field with Matthews. A premier CB = a premier LT. Still QB will trump them both, higher risk, higher reward. Nice try corrosion to stir the proverbial :stirpot:

mussop
12-20-2013, 12:02 AM
Not really directed to you.

How many QBs are in the league right now you would consider franchise guys who were drafted after the top half of the 2nd round?

Brady - no doubt, frankly falls into the blind damn luck category.
Russell Wilson - sure looks like it so far.
Nick Foles - again, sure looks good so far.

Now how many have been drafted in that time period?

There have been 25 drafted in the bottom half of the 2nd or the 3rd in that time frame. Figured going all the way down to the 6th would be goofy. That's 2 out of 25.

The drop off in waiting a round has to be considered.



Great post and that's exactly what I've been trying to explain for the past 2 weeks.

Can you find a franchise QB in the 2nd or 3rd round? Yes. But the odds are nowhere near as good as the 1st round. Talk about 1st round busts all you want, but the success rate is far higher for 1st round picks.


Geno Smith was OLads highest graded player last years draft. I would grade Bridgewater, Bortles & Manziel as better pro prospects. IF Texans do not get one of those three I believe they've wasted an opportunity to grab their franchise QB. Therefore if you feel good about all three I would consider trading down but not past the "3" spot :texflag:


There has to be one of those guys in the draft for that to happen ..... Im not sold on the fact that there is one.

If you take one anyhow and he's a bust .... there will be ALL PRO's and ProBowlers taken behind that bust of a QB .... Tell me again that's BPA !!

(that's a hypothetical post)


Lots of really good points here. And while I agree and have been saying the same thing, There is precedent for having a dominating defense as a way to win the big one.


You have to take the player that is going to help your franchise the most. Not the top ranked nationally media darling du jour.

If that is a qb then awesome. If not, that is awesome also. Go pick a Watt and not an Okoye

Playing devils advocate here. Despite McNairs remarks that this should be a quick turnaround, a two year plan could be the wiser way to go.

There is a lot of talk of next years draft having more talented QB's. Would it be unreasonable to think that bolstering the defense in this draft and riding this year out with a vet QB could be the better plan in the long run?

For instance say we bring in a new DC who sticks with a 3/4. How would this make our defense look?
1.) Javedon Clowney DE South Carolina
2.) Aaron Donald DT Pittsburgh
3.) Shayne Skov LB Stanford

Let them grow together and go after our QB next year.

infantrycak
12-20-2013, 12:20 AM
Geno Smith was OLads highest graded player last years draft. I would grade Bridgewater, Bortles & Manziel as better pro prospects. IF Texans do not get one of those three I believe they've wasted an opportunity to grab their franchise QB. Therefore if you feel good about all three I would consider trading down but not past the "3" spot :texflag:

You left Carr out - how do you rate him? From watching Carr and Manziel, Carr throws a better deep ball.

how many quarterbacks today would you consider franchise? since 2004 it's been very hit or miss with the first overall ... eli manning, alex smith, jamarcus russell, matt stafford, sam bradford, cam newton, and andrew luck. it gets ugly before then. brees and rodgers were late firsts, kaepernick should be mentioned, andy dalton, tony romo, ben went 11th, and so on. unless you're the colts, the elite level quarterback isnt landed on with the first pick, it's a very talented player that's built upon.

Brees was the 1st pick of the 2nd round.

I don't know, pick a definition - how about almost no argument (there's never none) he's good enough to win a SB without allegations of being carried? That's probably around 10.

I would think safe ones would be - Brady, Manning, Brees, Eli, Big Ben & Rogers. Some would argue I guess but I would include Flacco, Ryan, Stafford & Wilson. On the path Foles, Luck & Kaepernick.

That's 8 1sts, 2 2nds, 1 3rd, 1 6th.

steelbtexan
12-20-2013, 12:39 AM
Brees/Kaepernick/Wilson/Romo,Foles,Glennon,Brady/Geno Smith, Dalton,Schaub,Pryor were all of the starting QB's drafted outside the 1st rd. If you include Rodgers who was a very late 1st you have these tiers of QB's. None of these guys were drafted in 1st rd.

Tier 1 Franchise QB
Rodgers/Brees/Brady/Wilson, Got rings or in Wilson's case has an above avg chance to get a ring.

Tier 2
Romo/Schaub before injury/Foles Kaepernick, Kaepernick was just a hair away from winning a SB. If everything breaks right Romo could win a SB. 9He wont he's got the Moon syndrome.) Foles too early to tell

Tier 3 Dalton, doesn't have enough ability to be a SB winning QB. Glennon/Geno/Pryor too many flaws to ever win a SB.

WolverineFan
12-20-2013, 12:41 AM
Lots of really good points here. And while I agree and have been saying the same thing, There is precedent for having a dominating defense as a way to win the big one.




Playing devils advocate here. Despite McNairs remarks that this should be a quick turnaround, a two year plan could be the wiser way to go.

There is a lot of talk of next years draft having more talented QB's. Would it be unreasonable to think that bolstering the defense in this draft and riding this year out with a vet QB could be the better plan in the long run?

For instance say we bring in a new DC who sticks with a 3/4. How would this make our defense look?
1.) Javedon Clowney DE South Carolina
2.) Aaron Donald DT Pittsburgh
3.) Shayne Skov LB Stanford

Let them grow together and go after our QB next year.

I'm still not sold on Clowney as a 3-4 OLB. I'm not saying he can't play it, but playing him there is not maximizing his talent and if you draft Donald then that's where he would be playing. With that said, there is no debate that he would be an upgrade over Mercilus.

Donald would thrive in our one-gap, penetrating front as a DE. He could easily replace Ninja.

I really like Skov, but not for the Texans. The injuries that he and Cushing have sustained have sapped their mobility. They are downhill LB's now that read gaps, flow to the ball, and make plays at the line of scrimmage. We need a guy that can run sideline to sideline and make plays in space. That's why I've been high on Mosley and Smallwood as a fit for the Texans.

Scooter
12-20-2013, 12:48 AM
I would think safe ones would be - Brady, Manning, Brees, Eli, Big Ben & Rogers. Some would argue I guess but I would include Flacco, Ryan, Stafford & Wilson. On the path Foles, Luck & Kaepernick.

4 top picks, a 3rd overall, 3 later first round picks (11+), 2 second rounders, 2 thirds, and brady.

5 of the top 13 quarterbacks were taken in rounds 2 or later
8 of the top 13 quarterbacks were taken at pick 11 or later

many of these guys werent the first quarterback off the board. that's my point in a nutshell (not aimed at you IC), a quarterback is like every other player during the draft. the higher you pick the better your odds, but just because it's THE position doesnt mean you should reach for the highest rated quarterback instead of the best player for your team - that's how you get carr instead of peppers or jamarcus russell instead of megatron. all of these guys were put in very solid situations where the team around them was really good (except peyton who can carry an entire franchise on his back), they just needed a quarterback. the texans are close to that, but especially on offense we're at least an offensive lineman away from being able to give a young quarterback an ideal situation to mature in. the defense is full of holes in pass defense as well.

if the texans feel that "their guy" is in this draft, and that guy is a quarterback, i most definitely support grabbing him whenever necessary. if our front offense is saying "we need a quarterback" and forcing the pick, i disagree with it completely and would rather spend the pick on a more franchise type player.

beerlover
12-20-2013, 01:12 AM
You left Carr out - how do you rate him? From watching Carr and Manziel, Carr throws a better deep ball.

Not to derail your point which is a valid one but I don't consider Carr to be in the top 3 QB's in this class. more like Flacco territory late teens to late 20's. I'm just not in favor of a Classic drop back QB, times have changed & position has evolved. Also don't think he is a zone read guy or scrambler, just not the next level type of athlete we should be after this point. I might like Zach Mettenberger a little more but he can be such a hot dog, has a lot of Farve tendencies, to force the ball into coverage with his plus arm. These two are capable NFL prospects for QB position but notice, IMO ea. has significant flaws that make top three clearly superior franchise prospects. :specnatz:

mussop
12-20-2013, 01:20 AM
I'm still not sold on Clowney as a 3-4 OLB. I'm not saying he can't play it, but playing him there is not maximizing his talent and if you draft Donald then that's where he would be playing. With that said, there is no debate that he would be an upgrade over Mercilus.

Donald would thrive in our one-gap, penetrating front as a DE. He could easily replace Ninja.

I really like Skov, but not for the Texans. The injuries that he and Cushing have sustained have sapped their mobility. They are downhill LB's now that read gaps, flow to the ball, and make plays at the line of scrimmage. We need a guy that can run sideline to sideline and make plays in space. That's why I've been high on Mosley and Smallwood as a fit for the Texans.

yeh ignore the names. fill in the ones you like. It was meant more as an exercise of thought than a literal plan. Its hard for me to wrap my head around players and where they fit until I know who the coach is going to be and what system we are going to be running.

Admittedly I am way behind this year on my (wanna be) scouting. And of all years to be behind on the draft I had to pick the one where we get (most likely) the top pick.. I have a lot of catching up to do.

steelbtexan
12-20-2013, 01:23 AM
Brees/Kaepernick/Wilson/Romo,Foles,Glennon,Brady/Geno Smith, Dalton,Schaub,Pryor were all of the starting QB's drafted outside the 1st rd. If you include Rodgers who was a very late 1st you have these tiers of QB's. None of these guys were drafted in 1st rd.

Tier 1 Franchise QB
Rodgers/Brees/Brady/Wilson, Got rings or in Wilson's case has an above avg chance to get a ring.

Tier 2
Romo/Schaub before injury/Foles Kaepernick, Kaepernick was just a hair away from winning a SB. If everything breaks right Romo could win a SB. 9He wont he's got the Moon syndrome.) Foles too early to tell

Tier 3 Dalton, doesn't have enough ability to be a SB winning QB. Glennon/Geno/Pryor too many flaws to ever win a SB.

1-1 picks currently playing Manning/A.Smith/Eli/Stafford/Newton/Bradford/Palmer

Top 15 1st rd picks
RG3,Ryan/Freeman/Cutler/Ponder/Rivers/Locker/Gabbert/Flacco

The 1-1 picks you would have to consider Peyton and Eli great picks franchise guys, even though Peyton should have more rings. IMHO Stafford/Newton the jury is still out on, Bradford/Palmer/Smith are good but not true fanchise QB's. (I feel Bridgewater will fall into this group.)

RG3, Jury is still out due to injury, if he can stay healthy he can be a SB winner, Ryan/Cutler/Rivers/Roethlisberger are very good and can carry their teams but probably not all of the way to a SB. Ponder/Freeman/Locker/Gabbertt=Busts.

The point of these posts are
1. You stand just as good a chance of getting Rodgers/Brady/Brees/Wilson in the 2nd or later rds. as you do of reaching and getting Palmer/Bradford and to a lesser extent Smith at 1-1.

Cutler/Flacco/Ryan/Roethlisberger and Rivers have 3 things all QB's that have the ability to become great have 1. Accuracy 2.Arm strength 3. poise The reason Locker/Freeman/Gabbert are going to be bust is they lack Poise/accuracy you can learn poise but accuracy is is god given. Ponder simply doesn't have the arm strength to be a starting QB in the NFL. The Jury is still out on Manuel

Bridgewater reminds me of Alex Smith at best and Ponder at worst. (Accurate smart guys with avg or worst arm strength.)

These 2 posts were made to point out that there's no reason to reach for a franchise QB. You are just as likely to find a franchise QB at 10 to the 3rd rd as you are at 1-1.

For this reason I pick Clowney or Barr 1-1 and if I really like QB I trade back into the 1st rd and pick Bortles/Mettenberger who have the arm strength, or Manziel who is like Wilson or Manuel or Dalton

b0ng
12-20-2013, 02:07 PM
That really only affects the top 10 picks and applies to all positions. You could equally say teams are now freed up to take positions they wouldn't have considered before in the top 10 because of the expense. For instance there wouldn't even be a conversation about Matthews under the old cba unless he was going to play LT immediately.

Yes but since QB's get the biggest contracts when it comes time to re-up you're going to see more unconventional QB picks because if the guy is a stud you'll have him 5 years under a very cap-friendly rookie contract (This is for all first round rookies. The top 10 draft picks get the transition tender of the top 10 salaries at their position. 11-32 picks get the average of the 3rd - 25th highest paid players at their position). This is why you will see more QB's go in the first rounds even if they are questionable, and is also demonstrable of just how bad last years QB crop was.

The Third Man
12-21-2013, 01:14 AM
I would be OK with

Rd.1 Clowney/Barr
Rd.2 Bortles/Manziel/Mettenberger
Rd.3 Morgan Moses/James/Mewhort

That's value picks.

Yeah, I would like to get those QBs in round two, but only Mettenberger will be there. There are less question marks with Bridgewater than Clowney, or Barr and he plays the most important position in the game.

steelbtexan
12-21-2013, 01:26 AM
Yeah, I would like to get those QBs in round two, but only Mettenberger will be there. There are less question marks with Bridgewater than Clowney, or Barr and he plays the most important position in the game.

Why would youthink that?

There's no questioning Clowney/Barr's talent.

I have major questions about Bridgewater. In fact I'm not even sure he's the best QB in this draft and I consider this to be a slightly above avg QB draft.

2015 is a different story.

badboy
12-21-2013, 06:17 PM
Not really directed to you.

How many QBs are in the league right now you would consider franchise guys who were drafted after the top half of the 2nd round?

Brady - no doubt, frankly falls into the blind damn luck category.
Russell Wilson - sure looks like it so far.
Nick Foles - again, sure looks good so far.

Now how many have been drafted in that time period?

There have been 25 drafted in the bottom half of the 2nd or the 3rd in that time frame. Figured going all the way down to the 6th would be goofy. That's 2 out of 25.

The drop off in waiting a round has to be considered.
Good point but the question I keep asking myself is do we have to have a franchise QB? Of course, we all go back & forth over evals but we like the real guys can only make guesses based on what we see and hear from others. We need so much + 1-1 has to be a player with least risk possible for me. Prior to 2013 I was hoping we could start taking some risk players 2014 draft but no way now.

badboy
12-21-2013, 06:22 PM
Geno Smith was OLads highest graded player last years draft. I would grade Bridgewater, Bortles & Manziel as better pro prospects. IF Texans do not get one of those three I believe they've wasted an opportunity to grab their franchise QB. Therefore if you feel good about all three I would consider trading down but not past the "3" spot :texflag:

First three picks will be those guys? I hope so as that would give Cleveland incentive to make a good offer.

badboy
12-21-2013, 06:34 PM
I really like Oregon CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu. For his position I would grade him on level playing field with Matthews. A premier CB = a premier LT. Still QB will trump them both, higher risk, higher reward. Nice try corrosion to stir the proverbial :stirpot:And you were the guy who scolded me not too long ago on a mock of Verrett of choosing a "short" CB. I guess you changed your mind? Olomu did well in "Civil War" against Brandin Cooks & up my opinion of him. As it takes longer for corner to adjust to NFL than OTs, I have to disagree that he is level with Matthews.

bah007
12-21-2013, 06:52 PM
Ekpre-Olomu has higher upside than Matthews at his position, IMO. But Matthews certainly has a higher floor.

The Third Man
12-21-2013, 07:08 PM
Why would youthink that?

There's no questioning Clowney/Barr's talent.

I have major questions about Bridgewater. In fact I'm not even sure he's the best QB in this draft and I consider this to be a slightly above avg QB draft.

2015 is a different story.

Let me preface this by saying that I have not studied any of these players in depth, so I am sure you are more qualified in your opinions. I think Bridgewater has the measurables and production that justify a high pick. I like his toughness, quick release, arm strength and decision making ability. He comes from a pro style offense and he has produced without top flight talent around him. I also think you have to factor in the roster realities of the Texans. If the Texans rank Bortles, or Maizel as better prospects, go there.

Clowney has all of the physical attributes we would be looking for, but his production and motor have been called into question. I would have no problem with the Texans picking him, but I still think you win at a higher level with great QB play. Barr probably has less questions other than his relative inexperience on the defensive side. Barr seems more like a candidate to draft if you can trade down within the top 5.

beerlover
12-21-2013, 08:33 PM
And you were the guy who scolded me not too long ago on a mock of Verrett of choosing a "short" CB. I guess you changed your mind? Olomu did well in "Civil War" against Brandin Cooks & up my opinion of him. As it takes longer for corner to adjust to NFL than OTs, I have to disagree that he is level with Matthews.

Completely different Corners. Verrett plays small ball, jumps routes & takes risks, when called on to tackle he goes low much like Dunta Robinson. Pre plays big, he challenges opponents, sucks in QB's thinking his man is undercoverd then uses second gear recovery speed to knockdown/intercept pass or just plain knock you out, very physical, top CB since Revis lock & load it. 2nd on team in tackles says a lot for a CB.

badboy
12-22-2013, 08:29 PM
Completely different Corners. Verrett plays small ball, jumps routes & takes risks, when called on to tackle he goes low much like Dunta Robinson. Pre plays big, he challenges opponents, sucks in QB's thinking his man is undercoverd then uses second gear recovery speed to knockdown/intercept pass or just plain knock you out, very physical, top CB since Revis lock & load it. 2nd on team in tackles says a lot for a CB.definitely agree on tackles. He likes to hit.

thunderkyss
12-26-2013, 10:28 PM
Playing devils advocate here. Despite McNairs remarks that this should be a quick turnaround, a two year plan could be the wiser way to go.


We're playing in one of the weakest divisions in the league.

Texian
12-26-2013, 10:40 PM
Playing devils advocate here. Despite McNairs remarks that this should be a quick turnaround, a two year plan could be the wiser way to go.

We're playing in one of the weakest divisions in the league.

Until the Texans can become competitive with the salary cap, the Texans will not be competitive on the football field. They could use 2014 to fix all all their salary cap discrepancies and be in great shape in 2015. This is doubtful as this front office has never shown this propensity or responsibility.

badboy
12-26-2013, 10:44 PM
Until the Texans can become competitive with the salary cap, the Texans will not be competitive on the football field. They could use 2014 to fix all all their salary cap discrepancies and be in great shape in 2015. This is doubtful as this front office has never shown this propensity or responsibility.
Agree this could be a pivotal off season. Team needs to get so many things right with coach, draft and free agency including the cap. Not too sure any standouts will be available though.

thunderkyss
12-26-2013, 11:26 PM
Until the Texans can become competitive with the salary cap, the Texans will not be competitive on the football field. They could use 2014 to fix all all their salary cap discrepancies and be in great shape in 2015. This is doubtful as this front office has never shown this propensity or responsibility.

They can free up close to $40MM by cutting players who aren't producing.... I'm not talking about pushing any money into future years other than $7.5M of dead Schaub money.

Marshall
12-27-2013, 12:18 AM
They can free up close to $40MM by cutting players who aren't producing.... I'm not talking about pushing any money into future years other than $7.5M of dead Schaub money.

No. They can't. We have to go crazy to get to $17m.

Learn this site and how to use it. It explains a lot of things.
http://overthecap.com/nfl-cap-space.php?Year=2013

ps Schaub will have $10.5M in dead money, not $7.5M.

leebigeztx
12-27-2013, 03:28 AM
Why would youthink that?

There's no questioning Clowney/Barr's talent.

I have major questions about Bridgewater. In fact I'm not even sure he's the best QB in this draft and I consider this to be a slightly above avg QB draft.

2015 is a different story.

So you say. Barr can't bent and clowney,we know his questions. Pretty ridiculos you call bridgewater arm avg,which is the 1st I've ever heard that. You called palmer a reach when prior to injury,he was a franchise qb by all accounts. If you like barr or clowney,that's cool,but don't act like they don't have issues.

I've watched enough of both to know barr and clowney got real issues. Especially barr. I would take beasley before barr anyway. Barr can't bend and he stays blocked. If he's a olb who can't bend,how can he convert speed to power?

Texian
12-27-2013, 10:48 AM
They can free up close to $40MM by cutting players who aren't producing.... I'm not talking about pushing any money into future years other than $7.5M of dead Schaub money.

If they cut Schaub and Foster and take the full dead money penalty in 2014, that would put the Texans $50 million+ under the cap in 2015. If 2014 is a throw away year, why push dead money in to 2015? I expect some backlash on the comments to cut Foster, but let's be real.....Foster had BACK SURGERY, let me say it again.....Foster had BACK SURGERY. For all practical purposes and strictly my opinion, Foster's NFL career is likely over.

infantrycak
12-27-2013, 11:10 AM
If they cut Schaub and Foster and take the full dead money penalty in 2014, that would put the Texans $50 million+ under the cap in 2015. If 2014 is a throw away year, why push dead money in to 2015? I expect some backlash on the comments to cut Foster, but let's be real.....Foster had BACK SURGERY, let me say it again.....Foster had BACK SURGERY. For all practical purposes and strictly my opinion, Foster's NFL career is likely over.

Not all BACK SURGERY is the same. You may have heard Manning had BACK SURGERY. As a matter of fact, the surgeon was the same.

Texian
12-27-2013, 11:25 AM
Not all BACK SURGERY is the same. You may have heard Manning had BACK SURGERY. As a matter of fact, the surgeon was the same.

Manning had 4 neck surgeries vs back surgery and it took Manning 2 years to fully recover. Manning doesn't take the pounding a RB takes 300 times a year. I'm not saying Foster will not come back. Could he? Yes. IMHO I would be surprised and from my point of view, a RB returning from back surgery, I'm not getting my hopes up and would plan accordingly. You don't find many RBs who are as good as they once were after having back surgery. Slayton's career was pretty much over after his neck surgery. I'm not sure about the history of all of Manning's surgeries but he did go to Europe on a couple of occasions for additional medical procedures because his original surgery was not progressing as well as he had hoped.

kingtexan
12-27-2013, 11:37 AM
Draft Matthews #1, then trade back up to get Carr?

Just sayin ... :fingergun:

infantrycak
12-27-2013, 12:31 PM
Manning had 4 neck surgeries vs back surgery and it took Manning 2 years to fully recover. Manning doesn't take the pounding a RB takes 300 times a year. I'm not saying Foster will not come back. Could he? Yes. IMHO I would be surprised and from my point of view, a RB returning from back surgery, I'm not getting my hopes up and would plan accordingly. You don't find many RBs who are as good as they once were after having back surgery. Slayton's career was pretty much over after his neck surgery. I'm not sure about the history of all of Manning's surgeries but he did go to Europe on a couple of occasions for additional medical procedures because his original surgery was not progressing as well as he had hoped.

Typical - attempt to distinguish without comprehending the point.

Neck surgery is a subset of back surgery. If anything it is more serious because more nerves go through the cervical spine than lumbar where many have branched off above.

Yes Manning had 4 surgeries. Really missed the boat here. That is part of the point, his situation was far worse. He had multiple fusions in the zone from which the nerves which control his arm and hand branch off and he came back. Impingement of these nerves led to Slayton's difficulty holding onto the ball. Foster did not have a fusion. He had a microfracture repair to a disc in his lumbar region (far below the arm and hand nerves having branched).

I hope the Texans rely on medical advice rather than generalized fan fear.

Texian
12-27-2013, 12:48 PM
Typical - attempt to distinguish without comprehending the point.

Neck surgery is a subset of back surgery. If anything it is more serious because more nerves go through the cervical spine than lumbar where many have branched off above.

Yes Manning had 4 surgeries. Really missed the boat here. That is part of the point, his situation was far worse. He had multiple fusions in the zone from which the nerves which control his arm and hand branch off and he came back. Impingement of these nerves led to Slayton's difficulty holding onto the ball. Foster did not have a fusion. He had a microfracture repair to a disc in his lumbar region (far below the arm and hand nerves having branched).

I hope the Texans rely on medical advice rather than generalized fan fear.

Stop it already, We're already done here. I see you woke up argumentative this morning. ON this we can agree, you're NOT a doctor.

IDEXAN
12-27-2013, 12:54 PM
I'm thinking Matthews is second half of first round level talent.

WolverineFan
12-27-2013, 01:00 PM
I'm thinking Matthews is second half of first round level talent.

If his name wasn't Matthews then nobody on this board would be talking about him at #1. He's a very good player and will be a solid player in the NFL, but he's not going to be a cornerstone OT for a franchise.

bah007
12-27-2013, 01:28 PM
Stop it already, We're already done here. I see you woke up argumentative this morning. ON this we can agree, you're NOT a doctor.

Typical of you to take your ball and go home when your silly arguments are torn to pieces. Later.

Let's get CND in here and see who he agrees with. Because I can guarantee you aren't close on this one.

Blake
12-27-2013, 01:33 PM
Stop it already, We're already done here. I see you woke up argumentative this morning. ON this we can agree, you're NOT a doctor.

And you are a doctor? The one shouting about Foster's back surgery and its implications?

:spit:

Texian
12-27-2013, 01:37 PM
And you are a doctor? The one shouting about Foster's back surgery and its implications?

:spit:

I clarified my comments several times starting with IMHO and concluding with not many RBs have returned from back surgery to be as successful as they were before they had they had back surgery. I'm not sure a medical degree is needed to make that assumption. If you feel I am wrong feel free to list all those RBs who have been as successful after having such surgeries.

Texian
12-27-2013, 01:38 PM
Typical of you to take your ball and go home when your silly arguments are torn to pieces. Later.

Let's get CND in here and see who he agrees with. Because I can guarantee you aren't close on this one.

Are you 15?

bah007
12-27-2013, 01:39 PM
I clarified my comments several times starting with IMHO and concluding with not many RBs have returned from back surgery to be as successful as they were before they had they had back surgery. I'm not sure a medical degree is needed to make that assumption.

Neither is it needed to make the safe assumption that four neck surgeries is far more complicated and serious than a single back surgery.


Oh I'm sorry.. IMHO

bah007
12-27-2013, 01:48 PM
Are you 15?

No, but even if I was it would be insignificant. Age is not an indicator of wisdom. A fact that you continue to prove true time and time again.

Texian
12-27-2013, 02:00 PM
Age is not an indicator of wisdom.

It is statements like this that make me wonder.

thunderkyss
12-28-2013, 04:43 AM
No. They can't. We have to go crazy to get to $17m.

Learn this site and how to use it. It explains a lot of things.
http://overthecap.com/nfl-cap-space.php?Year=2013

ps Schaub will have $10.5M in dead money, not $7.5M.

ps..... If we cut Matt Schaub we'll gain $4M towards the cap. If we make him a June 1st cut, $7.5M will be pushed into 2014. Our 2014 cap would go up an additional $7.5M.... $11.5M to cut Matt Schaub in 2014.

http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Texans

says we're starting at $9M under the 2014 cap. Add the $11.5M from cutting Matt Schaub & we're at $20.5M

Cut Owen Daniels we save another $4.5M....... $25M

Cut Danieal Manning, another $4.5m....... $29.5M

Cut Brice McCain, just because we can; $800K...... $30.3M

Cut Tim Jamison; $730K...... $31M

Cut Derek Newton; $640K..... $31.6M

Cut Shilo Keo; $640K.... $32M

Cut Randy Bullock; $570K...... $32.5M

Cut Brandon Smelley; $570K..... $33M

Cut Alex Kupper; Jonathan Grimes; Case Keenum; Jawanza Starling; Evan Frierson; $2.5M.... $35.5M


& so far, the only thing going into the 2015 cap is Schaub's $7.5M dead money.

We can also renegotiate with Jjo & get another $5M, but we'll be pushing more dead money into 2015. Chris Myers, Duane Brown & (I believe) Andre Johnson could also renegotiate if needed.

& if you'd rather, we can cut Tj & keep Case. But Tj has won 3 regular season games & has play-off experience.

Lastly, this is not to throw away the 2014 season. This is to free up money to go after FA to help us win in 2014.

Marshall
12-28-2013, 04:50 AM
Stop it already, We're already done here. I see you woke up argumentative this morning. ON this we can agree, you're NOT a doctor.

And you are?

Marshall
12-28-2013, 05:00 AM
I'm thinking Matthews is second half of first round level talent.
The problem is the GMs don't agree. I'd love to trade down to 5 or 6 and pick up a 12-15 and draft Matthews. But that's not going to happen.

Best case scenario absent a trade partner? Draft Clowney who has the riot act explained to him by Watt and Cushing getting the most out of him on every play. Then have Bortles drop to 2-1. Brennan Williams and David Quessenberry fully recover to stack the line and Manning and a third round pick at safety shore up the secondary.

Texian
12-28-2013, 11:22 AM
And you are?

No I'm not. Never pretended to be. My comments were I am not familiar with any RB who was as successful after back surgery as he was before back surgery. I don't believe a medical degree is required to make such a statement. I still stand by both of these statements.

infantrycak
12-28-2013, 12:36 PM
No I'm not. Never pretended to be. My comments were I am not familiar with any RB who was as successful after back surgery as he was before back surgery. I don't believe a medical degree is required to make such a statement. I still stand by both of these statements.

Can you list some who have undergone surgery other than Slaton and Foster?

thunderkyss
12-28-2013, 05:02 PM
Can you list some who have undergone surgery other than Slaton and Foster?

Slaton underwent some kind of neck surgery huh? He had nerve issues... Foster doesn't, not that I know of. I also don't see any reason back issues would be a problem for Arian. It's not like he's Tmac or something.

WolverineFan
12-28-2013, 05:08 PM
Slaton underwent some kind of neck surgery huh? He had nerve issues... Foster doesn't, not that I know of. I also don't see any reason back issues would be a problem for Arian. It's not like he's Tmac or something.

I have more worries about the tread on Foster's tires than his back surgery. I think he can come back just fine from the surgery, but he only has 2-3 years left of top production. He will start declining soon, surgery or not. You can already see his body starting to wear out with all the injuries.

badboy
12-28-2013, 05:27 PM
I have more worries about the tread on Foster's tires than his back surgery. I think he can come back just fine from the surgery, but he only has 2-3 years left of top production. He will start declining soon, surgery or not. You can already see his body starting to wear out with all the injuries.
Why would anyone want to remove 2-3 years of top production by Foster from this team? Not directed at you, just asking?

Playoffs
01-21-2014, 10:54 AM
Jake Matthews, now not in this guy's top 10: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfldraftscout-DaneBrugler

Lance Zierlein ‏@LanceZierlein
Most project Matthews to tackle, but some project him to center RT @traceydhoover: @LanceZierlein so they don't project him to be a tackle?

I could see Jake Matthews as an outstanding center in the league. Jake’s dad Bruce played tackle guard and finally center during his career

Respected personnel man in Mobile told me teams are starting to consider A&M’s Jake Matthews as a center. That could impact his draft stock

TexansFTW
01-21-2014, 11:03 AM
I won't be shocked if he's not a top 10 pick when all is said and done.

Texn4life
01-21-2014, 11:08 AM
IMO Matthews had a better season last year. He definitely doesn't project as a LT to me. He's more of a RT or RG if anything. The Center thing I just can't see, but talent evaluators know much more than me I'm sure.

IDEXAN
01-21-2014, 11:08 AM
Told ya

WolverineFan
01-21-2014, 12:24 PM
Both Matthews and Lewan had better junior years than senior years. Both could have been drafted very high as LT's, but they came back and now Matthews is being looked at as a RT, OG, or C by some and Lewan is being talked about as a RT.

mussop
01-21-2014, 01:47 PM
I won't be shocked if he's not a top 10 pick when all is said and done.

I said two months ago, 12 to 15 at best.

TheIronDuke
01-21-2014, 01:49 PM
I said two months ago, 12 to 15 at best.

Which makes the people that were saying we should use our first overall on him look even more foolish, and there were several.

mussop
01-21-2014, 01:50 PM
Which makes the people that were saying we should use our first overall on him look even more foolish, and there were several.

Yep that's who I was telling it too.

bah007
01-21-2014, 01:51 PM
I said two months ago, 12 to 15 at best.

But he went to A&M and his daddy was a Hall of Famer...:kitten:

kiwitexansfan
01-21-2014, 02:04 PM
But he went to A&M and his daddy was a Hall of Famer...:kitten:

Could still go 12-15 and be a hall of famer.....

bah007
01-21-2014, 02:11 PM
Could still go 12-15 and be a hall of famer.....

No doubt about it.

But where he went to school and who his daddy is are two main reasons why he is so highly rated around here, both of which have nothing to do with his own ability.

Texian
01-21-2014, 03:52 PM
IMHO I don't think Matthews will be the first OT taken in the draft. There are a couple of more athletic OTs that could be in this draft. Matthews last few games were disappointing.

and now there is talk of him playing center....not surprised.

Dutchrudder
01-21-2014, 03:53 PM
Did he get measured recently? Are his arms really short? Why are people discussing him as a center instead of a guard or tackle? That's a big downgrade.

Texian
01-21-2014, 03:55 PM
Did he get measured recently? Are his arms really short? Why are people discussing him as a center instead of a guard or tackle? That's a big downgrade.

see Senior Bowl thread

infantrycak
01-21-2014, 03:59 PM
But where he went to school and who his daddy is are two main reasons why he is so highly rated around here, both of which have nothing to do with his own ability.

He has been listed in the top 5 players all around the country very consistently. What is this "around here" you speak of?

I am not in favor of drafting him high and have said so on many occasions, but I think you are over-playing the whose your daddy/school card.

bah007
01-21-2014, 04:25 PM
He has been listed in the top 5 players all around the country very consistently. What is this "around here" you speak of?

I am not in favor of drafting him high and have said so on many occasions, but I think you are over-playing the whose your daddy/school card.

I think he is a very good prospect but all of the #1 overall talk on this board came mainly from A&M fans (of which we have quite a few, Houston and College Station being so close) and those who would point to the success of his father, despite them being two different players.

This is a total guess but I imagine if there were a poll among NFL fanbases on what Matthews' future holds he would score highest in Houston.

infantrycak
01-21-2014, 04:35 PM
I think he is a very good prospect but all of the #1 overall talk on this board came mainly from A&M fans (of which we have quite a few, Houston and College Station being so close) and those who would point to the success of his father, despite them being two different players.

This is a total guess but I imagine if there were a poll among NFL fanbases on what Matthews' future holds he would score highest in Houston.

You are probably correct on the polling. My point is he is legitimately in the conversation based on national reviews. It's not like elsewhere he is ranked like Duane Brown coming out and only getting top pick play around here.

Marshall
01-21-2014, 04:40 PM
He has been listed in the top 5 players all around the country very consistently. What is this "around here" you speak of?

I am not in favor of drafting him high and have said so on many occasions, but I think you are over-playing the whose your daddy/school card.

The whose your daddy/school card has drawn as much or more criticism than support. He is probably NFL ready at a position that often takes a couple of years. He has been ranked highly NATIONALLY, but is moving up and down the boards as time goes by as most players do this time of year.

thunderkyss
01-22-2014, 12:23 PM
Which makes the people that were saying we should use our first overall on him look even more foolish, and there were several.

For the record, I don't know & didn't know if he would be a LT or not.... still don't. My stance was if he grades out to be a LT, & I even said it doesn't have to be Matthews, Lewan, or Robinson... if any of them grades out to be a LT I would draft him over Bridgewater if Bridgewater doesn't grade out to be a franchise QB.

I don't want to draft a QB just because we need one especially if there is talent worthy of the #1 overall available, be it a WR, a DE, a CB, or a LT...... even a RB, but I don't think they exist anymore.

Now you may believe Bridgewater grades out as a franchise QB. I don't. I think he'll probably be a solid starter, worthy of a first round pick, but not necessarily the #1 overall, I'm not sold that he is the best player in this draft.

mussop
01-22-2014, 12:33 PM
He has been listed in the top 5 players all around the country very consistently. What is this "around here" you speak of?

I am not in favor of drafting him high and have said so on many occasions, but I think you are over-playing the whose your daddy/school card.

The Mathews name isn't just locally known. Don't forget Clay sr of the browns and jr In Greenbay. Hat name carries a lot of weight all over the national footbal league.

Blake
01-22-2014, 12:34 PM
Now you may believe Bridgewater grades out as a franchise QB. I don't. I think he'll probably be a solid starter, worthy of a first round pick, but not necessarily the #1 overall, I'm not sold that he is the best player in this draft.

What is your list of players who are worthy of the #1 overall pick?

JB
01-22-2014, 12:44 PM
What is your list of players who are worthy of the #1 overall pick?

They all have warts... we'll pull a Minnesota and drop back a couple spots before we draft :kitten:

gafftop
01-22-2014, 12:44 PM
What is your list of players who are worthy of the #1 overall pick?

Unfortunately no one this year. Just my opinion. Trade down if possible.
We have many needs.

b0ng
01-22-2014, 02:48 PM
For the record, I don't know & didn't know if he would be a LT or not.... still don't. My stance was if he grades out to be a LT, & I even said it doesn't have to be Matthews, Lewan, or Robinson... if any of them grades out to be a LT I would draft him over Bridgewater if Bridgewater doesn't grade out to be a franchise QB.

I don't want to draft a QB just because we need one especially if there is talent worthy of the #1 overall available, be it a WR, a DE, a CB, or a LT...... even a RB, but I don't think they exist anymore.

Now you may believe Bridgewater grades out as a franchise QB. I don't. I think he'll probably be a solid starter, worthy of a first round pick, but not necessarily the #1 overall, I'm not sold that he is the best player in this draft.

Let me relate these to Madden Grades and the draft.

If you've got Clowney at a 96, Matthews as a 94 and some other prospect (Say Anthony Barr) at 93, but you have either Bridgewater or Manziel even close to those dudes in your grades, and you need a QB, you have to take one of those two QB's. I don't have to explain to you how important QB's are in this game, and I'm sure you understand how difficult in can be to get a QB who can be a game breaker.

Maybe in your evaluations of whatever you don't think Teddy or Johnny can be those guys and thats fine then go with whomever. But if your honest evaluations put either of the QB's close to the guys who you think will be the best players from the draft you almost have to take the QB. It's really that simple.

thunderkyss
01-22-2014, 02:50 PM
What is your list of players who are worthy of the #1 overall pick?

I don't know any of these kids. I don't watch college football. I feel like I know what a franchise QB is, the prototype anyway. Bridgewater doesn't meet them, imo. He's falls short on several points.

I've been spending what little time I have looking at QBs, I haven't looked at other positions, which is why I've always said "if"

thunderkyss
01-22-2014, 02:55 PM
Let me relate these to Madden Grades and the draft.

If you've got Clowney at a 96, Matthews as a 94 and some other prospect (Say Anthony Barr) at 93, but you have either Bridgewater or Manziel even close to those dudes in your grades, and you need a QB, you have to take one of those two QB's. I don't have to explain to you how important QB's are in this game, and I'm sure you understand how difficult in can be to get a QB who can be a game breaker.

Maybe in your evaluations of whatever you don't think Teddy or Johnny can be those guys and thats fine then go with whomever. But if your honest evaluations put either of the QB's close to the guys who you think will be the best players from the draft you almost have to take the QB. It's really that simple.

Agreed. I've never said any different.

In other words, I don't have Johnny, or Teddy that close to prototypical.

Marshall
01-22-2014, 03:02 PM
Let me relate these to Madden Grades and the draft.

If you've got Clowney at a 96, Matthews as a 94 and some other prospect (Say Anthony Barr) at 93, but you have either Bridgewater or Manziel even close to those dudes in your grades, and you need a QB, you have to take one of those two QB's. I don't have to explain to you how important QB's are in this game, and I'm sure you understand how difficult in can be to get a QB who can be a game breaker.

Maybe in your evaluations of whatever you don't think Teddy or Johnny can be those guys and thats fine then go with whomever. But if your honest evaluations put either of the QB's close to the guys who you think will be the best players from the draft you almost have to take the QB. It's really that simple.

You're expressing a common QB centric viewpoint. I for one, think this is overdone. But it is the root of our differences in whether to trade down, pick another player or take the best QB. Your football worldview will determine your position for the most part.

I'd like to see how many Superbowls were won by the highest paid QB that season. I suspect very few since most of the rewards come after the Superbowl has been won rather than before it.

Blake
01-22-2014, 03:08 PM
Now you may believe Bridgewater grades out as a franchise QB. I don't. I think he'll probably be a solid starter, worthy of a first round pick, but not necessarily the #1 overall, I'm not sold that he is the best player in this draft.

I don't know any of these kids. I don't watch college football. I feel like I know what a franchise QB is, the prototype anyway. Bridgewater doesn't meet them, imo. He's falls short on several points.

I've been spending what little time I have looking at QBs, I haven't looked at other positions, which is why I've always said "if"

You say you are not sold that Teddy is the best player in the draft, yet you admit that you don't watch college football and don't know any of these "kids."

Teddy is not in the 1983 draft, 2004 or even 2011 draft. He is in the 2014 draft and is a lock as a top 5 pick. You may not think he is a franchise QB, but none of these kids are. They are potential franchise QBs.

You still dont like Teddy as a prospect? Ok, then give us an alternative besides trading down to a mythical team who is willing to mortgage its future on the same player(s) that you are ready to get away from.

thunderkyss
01-22-2014, 03:44 PM
You say you are not sold that Teddy is the best player in the draft, yet you admit that you don't watch college football and don't know any of these "kids."

Teddy is not in the 1983 draft, 2004 or even 2011 draft. He is in the 2014 draft and is a lock as a top 5 pick. You may not think he is a franchise QB, but none of these kids are. They are potential franchise QBs.

You still dont like Teddy as a prospect? Ok, then give us an alternative besides trading down to a mythical team who is willing to mortgage its future on the same player(s) that you are ready to get away from.

If Sammy Watkins turns out to be the best player in this draft, I'd draft him. I'd sign Freeman, then draft Mettenberger in the 2nd, or McCarron in the third. I think it's just as possible for them to turn into a franchise QB as Bridgewater & Manziel.

Imagine Freeman throwing the ball to Aj, Hopkins, & Watkins. Or better yet Metenberger or McCarron beating Freeman for the starting job. If we get a RT in the third, or Brennan pans out

matts290
01-22-2014, 03:47 PM
If Sammy Watkins turns out to be the best player in this draft, I'd draft him. I'd sign Freeman, then draft Mettenberger in the 2nd, or McCarron in the third. I think it's just as possible for them to turn into a franchise QB as Bridgewater & Manziel.

Imagine Freeman throwing the ball to Aj, Hopkins, & Watkins. Or better yet Metenberger or McCarron beating Freeman for the starting job. If we get a RT in the third, or Brennan pans out

Josh Freeman...Josh freaking Freeman? You know he is a terrible QB and is probably out of the league for good, he couldn't beat out Christian Ponder or Matt Cassel for a job and you want to sign him?

WolverineFan
01-22-2014, 03:56 PM
If Sammy Watkins turns out to be the best player in this draft, I'd draft him. I'd sign Freeman, then draft Mettenberger in the 2nd, or McCarron in the third. I think it's just as possible for them to turn into a franchise QB as Bridgewater & Manziel.

Imagine Freeman throwing the ball to Aj, Hopkins, & Watkins. Or better yet Metenberger or McCarron beating Freeman for the starting job. If we get a RT in the third, or Brennan pans out

It doesn't matter if he's throwing to Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, and Calvin Johnson. The dude is a horrible QB. Giving him talent doesn't change that.

This is the same problem the Texans already fell into. Surround a mediocre QB with great talent and he will elevate. No, he won't. He'll still be the same mediocre QB, just with better weapons.

mussop
01-22-2014, 03:59 PM
Josh Freeman...Josh freaking Freeman? You know he is a terrible QB and is probably out of the league for good, he couldn't beat out Christian Ponder or Matt Cassel for a job and you want to sign him?

Are you familiar with the situation he was in this year?

kiwitexansfan
01-22-2014, 04:04 PM
Are you familiar with the situation he was in this year?

The situation that had everyone buzzing around Mike Glennon?

matts290
01-22-2014, 04:05 PM
Are you familiar with the situation he was in this year?

Yes very familiar. He showed promise in 2010 his first full year starting, and then regressed a lot in 2011. His numbers ticked back up in 2012 but he still didn't look to be taking big strides and then this year he really took a plummet before getting release and picked up by the Vikings. They gave him a decent chunk of change and made it obvious they planned to start him, and then he bombed big time in the Monday night game against the Gaints, couldn't hit the broadside of the barn. He is not a good QB, anyone that watches him knows that. Mike Glennon came in as a rookie and looked way better than him in the same Bucs offense.

badboy
01-22-2014, 04:18 PM
Let me relate these to Madden Grades and the draft.

If you've got Clowney at a 96, Matthews as a 94 and some other prospect (Say Anthony Barr) at 93, but you have either Bridgewater or Manziel even close to those dudes in your grades, and you need a QB, you have to take one of those two QB's. I don't have to explain to you how important QB's are in this game, and I'm sure you understand how difficult in can be to get a QB who can be a game breaker.

Maybe in your evaluations of whatever you don't think Teddy or Johnny can be those guys and thats fine then go with whomever. But if your honest evaluations put either of the QB's close to the guys who you think will be the best players from the draft you almost have to take the QB. It's really that simple.Gonna disagree which is what makes the boards fun. Using your examples, if TB or JFF rated 90% and top 5 yet Boyd is rated even at 85 (I have him at about 90) and he can be selected in third (currently rated top of 5th) I go with Boyd. I have watched all these QBs now and he is right there with all of them and can be had at least two rounds lower. His 6'.06" is only risk. He is more solid than several including TB and JFF.

If Mettenberger healthy and that will not be known for a while, he is only QB I'd take over Boyd and he should be a second at best.

mussop
01-22-2014, 04:23 PM
Yes very familiar. He showed promise in 2010 his first full year starting, and then regressed a lot in 2011. His numbers ticked back up in 2012 but he still didn't look to be taking big strides and then this year he really took a plummet before getting release and picked up by the Vikings. They gave him a decent chunk of change and made it obvious they planned to start him, and then he bombed big time in the Monday night game against the Gaints, couldn't hit the broadside of the barn. He is not a good QB, anyone that watches him knows that. Mike Glennon came in as a rookie and looked way better than him in the same Bucs offense.

So,,,,,No!

JB
01-22-2014, 04:24 PM
How did this get to be a thread about Freeman?

matts290
01-22-2014, 04:26 PM
So,,,,,No!

Please,,,,Explain what I am missing then,,,,,

I know about the whole controversy between him and Schiano, but that doesn't change the fact that he performed very poorly on the field.

TheMatrix31
01-22-2014, 04:32 PM
No doubt about it.

But where he went to school and who his daddy is are two main reasons why he is so highly rated around here, both of which have nothing to do with his own ability.

Not for me. I couldn't give a **** less about his school or who his father is seeing as how I don't live in Texas and wasn't an Oilers fan.

I just liked the idea of getting the best OL, whoever it may be, because I'm sick of OL issues.

Doesn't look like it's gonna happen anyway though, if he's slipping.

Playoffs
01-22-2014, 04:56 PM
How did this get to be a thread about Freeman?

Most TT threads are not about what they're about, but something different. :kitten:

TexansFTW
01-22-2014, 05:16 PM
Gonna disagree which is what makes the boards fun. Using your examples, if TB or JFF rated 90% and top 5 yet Boyd is rated even at 85 (I have him at about 90) and he can be selected in third (currently rated top of 5th) I go with Boyd. I have watched all these QBs now and he is right there with all of them and can be had at least two rounds lower. His 6'.06" is only risk. He is more solid than several including TB and JFF.

If Mettenberger healthy and that will not be known for a while, he is only QB I'd take over Boyd and he should be a second at best.

You're the only one that has Boyd at 90. I know this is imaginary, but where did you pull 85?

I stole this from another thread

Tony Pauline ‏@TonyPauline

Packers scout not alone in feeling Tajh Boyd/Clemson undraftable. Another league insider told me they would not use a draft pick on the QB.

The drop off is not the way you depict it. This is my opinion, but at the same time, who am I right? Take this for what you will.

Here are my imaginary Madden grades. (BTW, this is absolutely subject to change)

1. TB - 92
2. Bortles - 88
3. JFF - 86 (with potential for 93, WILDCARD!)
4. Derek Carr - 76
5. Zach Met - 69
6. Tajh Boyd - 66
7. Jimmy G - 63
8. AJ McCarron - 60
9. Aaron Murray - 56
10. Brett Smith/David Fales - 50

90s don't go in round 3. They go in round 1. 60's go in round 3. No scouts pass up on 90 QBs to draft a special teamer/3rd round LB in the 4th just because they have a QB. Teams will gladly hoard several 90 QBs.

Most TT threads are not about what they're about, but something different. :kitten:

Boom!

Speaking of imaginary...If we consider any tackle in this draft to build these imaginary trenches in hopes of becoming the Cleveland Browns, it better not be Matthews and better be Robinson. After the combine is over I'm sure Big Ro is gonna be top 5 and Matthews and his "supposed" T-Rex arms will be clinging to top 15 hope.

badboy
01-22-2014, 06:16 PM
You're the only one that has Boyd at 90. I know this is imaginary, but where did you pull 85?

I stole this from another thread

Tony Pauline ‏@TonyPauline


The drop off is not the way you depict it. This is my opinion, but at the same time, who am I right? Take this for what you will.

Here are my imaginary Madden grades. (BTW, this is absolutely subject to change)

1. TB - 92
2. Bortles - 88
3. JFF - 86 (with potential for 93, WILDCARD!)
4. Derek Carr - 76
5. Zach Met - 69
6. Tajh Boyd - 66
7. Jimmy G - 63
8. AJ McCarron - 60
9. Aaron Murray - 56
10. Brett Smith/David Fales - 50

90s don't go in round 3. They go in round 1. 60's go in round 3. No scouts pass up on 90 QBs to draft a special teamer/3rd round LB in the 4th just because they have a QB. Teams will gladly hoard several 90 QBs.



Boom!

Speaking of imaginary...If we consider any tackle in this draft to build these imaginary trenches in hopes of becoming the Cleveland Browns, it better not be Matthews and better be Robinson. After the combine is over I'm sure Big Ro is gonna be top 5 and Matthews and his "supposed" T-Rex arms will be clinging to top 15 hope.TBH, my system is based on a 100 percentile in that I consider each of several factors as do others. I do have TB rated as best QB but imo based on observation as well as what others say, if Boyd was same height and he is not far off, he would have slight edge imo. I just threw out 85 as if he had that rating I would take him at third over TB in first. I agree '90' players are not in third round but I don't rate him as a third round guy. My mocks are now based on where player is rated by others such as CBS draftscout and Walter. My final mock is usually based on where I think a player will be selected. Just the way I do things.

kiwitexansfan
01-22-2014, 06:57 PM
Gonna disagree which is what makes the boards fun. Using your examples, if TB or JFF rated 90% and top 5 yet Boyd is rated even at 85 (I have him at about 90) and he can be selected in third (currently rated top of 5th) I go with Boyd. I have watched all these QBs now and he is right there with all of them and can be had at least two rounds lower. His 6'.06" is only risk. He is more solid than several including TB and JFF.

If Mettenberger healthy and that will not be known for a while, he is only QB I'd take over Boyd and he should be a second at best.

What do you see in Boyd that makes you so keen on him?

badboy
01-23-2014, 10:52 AM
What do you see in Boyd that makes you so keen on him?It is his whole makeup that all QBs are judged by; & as do all of them he needs work and time to improve. He has foot speed, balance, good in pocket but can scramble, good arm and can make the throws. Here is a very detailed eval that I agree with (mostly) from Peter Smith at draftbreakdown.com :

http://withthefirstpick.com/2013/10/07/2014-nfl-draft-scouting-report-tajh-boyd-qb-clemson/

kiwitexansfan
01-23-2014, 04:32 PM
It is his whole makeup that all QBs are judged by; & as do all of them he needs work and time to improve. He has foot speed, balance, good in pocket but can scramble, good arm and can make the throws. Here is a very detailed eval that I agree with (mostly) from Peter Smith at draftbreakdown.com :

http://withthefirstpick.com/2013/10/07/2014-nfl-draft-scouting-report-tajh-boyd-qb-clemson/

Thanks badboy, I can't quite get my head around Boyd.

badboy
01-23-2014, 05:30 PM
Thanks badboy, I can't quite get my head around Boyd.I understand but you can say that about all of them this year. He has all he needs but size ( a true 6 .06 feet tall and 223 lbs). If height does not eliminate Manziel it should not Boyd.

kiwitexansfan
01-23-2014, 06:48 PM
I understand but you can say that about all of them this year. He has all he needs but size ( a true 6 .06 feet tall and 223 lbs). If height does not eliminate Manziel it should not Boyd.

I think my doubts have been about accuracy as much as anything, maybe that is height related..... we'll see I guess.

If we don't go with QB at 1:1 I think Boyd or Mettenberger will be my fallbacks at the moment.

Playoffs
01-24-2014, 12:27 PM
Seeing Greg Robinson Auburn/ OT/ 6'5"/ 320lbs./ moving ahead of Matthews.

thunderkyss
01-24-2014, 01:08 PM
What do you see in Boyd that makes you so keen on him?

I like his accuracy, I love his ball placement. I also get the feeling he's most apt to stand in the pocket & deliver a pass knowing he's going to get hit & get up to play the next down.

mussop
01-24-2014, 01:50 PM
Seeing Greg Robinson Auburn/ OT/ 6'5"/ 320lbs./ moving ahead of Matthews.

I believe he will be the first OT taken

Honoring Earl 34
01-24-2014, 02:03 PM
I believe he will be the first OT taken

I was reading somewhere that Matthews was being thought as a center .

mussop
01-24-2014, 03:50 PM
I was reading somewhere that Matthews was being thought as a center .

Center or guard. Yes I heard that a couple of days ago.

Texecutioner
01-24-2014, 07:09 PM
Earlier in the season , I preferred Matthews .... In general I still do.

But .... Circumstances dictate course of action.

The circumstances here are simple - We don't have a quarterback. If you don't have a franchise QB , you go get one. Teddy , should he declare is probably your best bet to become that franchise QB , at least in this draft.

I don't want one of the scrap heap QB's that will be FA's this offseason , they have all proven they aren't "Franchise Quarterbacks." They are Schaub or worse .... I've had enough of that.

I guess you do have the option of drafting Matthews and letting Case act like an NFL QB for another season then drafting Jameis Winston or Marcus Mariota in the 2015 draft .... but I'm not so sure I can stomach another season like this one.

I understand where you are going here, and I wouldn't mind waiting a year or so for that franchise QB opportunity. I think a lot of teams waste a lot of years drafting a QB out of need when they aren't really drafting a true franchise QB, and then their team's big run gets delayed several years as they are looking for a franchise QB again. The Cleveland Browns and the Jags are perfect examples of teams that continually make this mistake. If O'Brien doesn't feel like any of these QB's are going to for surely be franchise QB's then I'd rather him get a franchise Olineman if he feels that Mathews is that guy. I just don't want the pick wasted on any position. Lets just make sure that we're getting a solid player that can contribute hopefully at a Pro Bowl level for many years.

Now the problem with waiting until next season with the idea of getting guys like Mariota or Winston is the fact that tons of teams are going to be wanting those guys next year too. What are the odds that the Texans will be at a #1 draft spot again next year? I highly doubt we will even be in the top 5. If so, that would mean we had a terrible season next year. I don't think that will happen and we will probably be picking somewhere around 15 or so. Just a guess as of now. So, how does that put us in a position next year to get that franchise guy? It puts us at an even lower probability to find that guy most likely.

Having the #1 pick this season is great, but it isn't an easy choice at all this season to me. I think you can approach this from several different routes or strategies, and many of them can go wrong. None of these QB's have that Andrew Luck type of "can't miss" feel to them. They all have certain question marks that are pretty glaring along with the upside as well. I don't envy O'Brien's task that is in front of him at all with this draft any way.

badboy
01-27-2014, 04:36 PM
Trading down and getting picks for next two drafts looks enticing.

mussop
01-27-2014, 08:44 PM
Trading down and getting picks for next two drafts looks enticing.

I would love to to see a perfect storm of trades go down. Move down to four for both Cleveland's first and and next years first. Then trade back up to two swapping two for four and give them our second round pick and our first next year.

We now have improved next years first round pick. Surely we will be better than Cleveland. And we turned our second round this year into a first.


I know I'm a homer. :nolisten:

Playoffs
02-08-2014, 03:03 PM
tweets read bottom(oldest)-to-top
http://thegrownupya.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/coffee-talk.jpg

TackleTwitterTalk, with Linda Richman

Josh Norris ‏@JoshNorris 2h
@MockingTheDraft @SI_DougFarrar I don't think its a system thing. Think NFL is going to obsess over Robinson, might be No 2 player for some

Dan Kadar ‏@MockingTheDraft 2h
@SI_DougFarrar @JoshNorris They're both good enough to transcend system, to me. Better than last year's top OTs.

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 2h
@MockingTheDraft @JoshNorris I've also seen Robinson lose on pad level and just get absolutely trucked.

SI_DougFarrar ‏@SI_DougFarrar 2h
@MockingTheDraft @JoshNorris Is a system thing, though? Matthews is more proficient to me, but Robinson is just a freakin' snowblower.

Ryan Lownes ‏@ryanlownes 2h
@MockingTheDraft @JoshNorris Agreed, Robinson's footwork is still raw and we have to work harder to project him at the next level.

Dan Kadar ‏@MockingTheDraft 2h
@ryanlownes @JoshNorris I still have some questions about Robinson's footwork in pass protection. Not so much with Matthews.

Ryan Lownes ‏@ryanlownes 2h
@MockingTheDraft @JoshNorris Sorry to jump in, but I agree. Robinson more of a sexy option. His tape + size/athleticism will win teams over.

Dan Kadar ‏@MockingTheDraft 2h
@JoshNorris I still prefer Matthews myself, but they're close and I can see why teams would prefer Robinson.

Josh Norris ‏@JoshNorris 2h
@MockingTheDraft Agree. I think it is an upset if Matthews goes ahead of Robinson.

Dan Kadar ‏@MockingTheDraft 2h
Ignore your loved one and listen to our podcast: http://sbn.to/1e9EzzI I may have predicted Greg Robinson gets picked before Jake Matthews.

Tony Pauline ‏@TonyPauline
From a physical skills point of view I'm told Greg Robinson/T/Auburn looks like a freak during combine training- absolute beast...

mussop
02-08-2014, 06:29 PM
tweets read bottom(oldest)-to-top
http://thegrownupya.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/coffee-talk.jpg

TackleTwitterTalk, with Linda Richman

So these so called scouts are just now realizing what some of us have been saying for over a month.

TexansFTW
02-10-2014, 02:05 PM
So these so called scouts are just now realizing what some of us have been saying for over a month.

Longer.

Playoffs
02-11-2014, 12:58 PM
Gil Brandt ‏@Gil_Brandt
Happy birthday to Jake Matthews. Will have much to celebrate in three months. #top10draftpick

Playoffs
02-13-2014, 11:21 AM
Ryan Lownes ‏@ryanlownes
That said, I'm taking nothing away from Greg Robinson. He's a top six player in this class in my opinion and is an exciting talent.

If there is an injury and I need to make some changes up front, I trust that Matthews can step in at just about any offensive line spot.

I have always been very high on Greg Robinson and he may be the first off the board in May, but I don't care who I am - I'm going Matthews.

Me? I'm taking Jake Matthews. Polished, NFL-ready player with strong technique, good feet/balance, and the necessary toughness.

If you were picking near the top of the draft, which would you take to be your franchise left tackle: Greg Robinson or Jake Matthews?

WolverineFan
02-13-2014, 11:27 AM
If you were picking near the top of the draft, which would you take to be your franchise left tackle?

If the question is "franchise" LT, then I think the answer is clearly Robinson. He has the potential to be that guy. I don't see Matthews as a "franchise" LT. He's a guy who can probably play any position on the front at a high level, but I don't see him as a pro-bowl caliber LT. Robinson could bust, but if he hits he will be a pro-bowl caliber LT and I think a "franchise" LT is someone who performs at that level. That's my take on it anyway.

Playoffs
02-20-2014, 11:55 AM
Stable Of Bros – Drew Hodgon on Jake Matthews (http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/02/20/stable-of-bros-drew-hodgon-on-jake-matthews/)
It’s that time of year again, the pre-draft period, when your favorite NFL blogs overflow with the opinions of former scouts, wannabe scouts, critics of scouts, girls that have dated scouts, and every other scout except Scout from To Kill a Mockingbird. Many of these people do outstanding work, but there’s only so much of it one can stomach. In an effort to bring a little variety to the melange of player reports, I’ve asked a few fomer NFL players to give their opinions on some of this year’s prospects. I call them my Stable of Bros, and you will read them because I’ll go Incognito on you if you don’t. Also, I figure they’ll have a slightly different perspective. Cool, right?

My first Bro Scout is Drew Hodgdon. He lives in Chicago and he’s awesome. He was a center for several years with the Texans. He survived on guile, scrappiness, and a tempered scorn for defensive tackles. Drew knows his stuff. I used to make him take extra reps against me in practice because he did such a good job of exploiting my weaknesses. Hard to say that with a straight face, since I had zero weaknesses (You don’t have access to film, right?). Drew’s got an eye for this stuff and knows what he’s talking about. He’ll be doing a player a day until he quits or at least until his form starts to suffer...

Playoffs
02-20-2014, 02:43 PM
Video HT.com: http://t.co/4gS5t2QN89

@jwyattsports: Asked Jake Matthews what his dad is up to. In Bruce-like fashion, he replied: "Nothing much. He just got fired."http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e316/Soizic22/a%20smilie/laugh-1.gif

Dan Kadar ‏@MockingTheDraft
Matthews said he'll do all drills at the combine.

Matthews on A&M being O-line university "I like that."

Jake Matthews said he never had any issues with what Johnny Manziel did off the field.

Dane Brugler ‏@dpbrugler
Matthews commanding the room. Clearly intelligent and confident. Articulate and detailed answers pic.twitter.com/7AWwERLiFO

Matthews on Manziel: "You never know what to expect. He's all over the place." Also called him a good leader.

Matthews: "I thought Kony Ealy was tough. Big and strong. Mixed up pass moves well. Guys who mix it up are tough"

Jake Matthews on family NFL bloodlines: "I'd like to think I wasn't grandfathered in". Said no pressure

badboy
02-20-2014, 03:29 PM
Stable Of Bros – Drew Hodgon on Jake Matthews (http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/02/20/stable-of-bros-drew-hodgon-on-jake-matthews/)I could not remember him. Here is his time with Texans per wiki:

He was selected by the Texans in the fifth round (151st overall) of the 2005 NFL Draft. He saw action in four games during his rookie season, starting three, before being placed on the injured reserve list. He increased his playing time in his second season, when he saw action in eight games and started in five. He was released just before the 2007 season, but was resigned on December 4, 2007. Some time after, he was released once more, never to be seen or heard from again. However, that changed on November 2013, when he talked on a Houston radio station. He talked about the Texans miserable season and a bike wreck.[1]

Playoffs
02-21-2014, 03:20 PM
Eric SanInocencio ‏@EricSan
RT @nfl: 24 reps on the bench press for @AggieFootball's Jake Matthews. https://vine.co/v/MmubrLHrw5j #NFLCombine

Blake
02-21-2014, 03:24 PM
Probably not what he wanted, but 24 is still a good number. Wont be in the top 15 performers in the OL though.

CloakNNNdagger
02-21-2014, 03:27 PM
Eric SanInocencio ‏@EricSan

Exact same as Duane Brown's.

Blake
02-21-2014, 03:31 PM
Exact same as Duane Brown's.

This is one of those drills that make you go hmmmm?

I dont understand how this gives them insight to a players ability to play football and I dont understand how their number of reps can help differentiate them from one another.

Marshall
02-21-2014, 03:36 PM
This is one of those drills that make you go hmmmm?

I dont understand how this gives them insight to a players ability to play football and I dont understand how their number of reps can help differentiate them from one another.

Strength in the upper body in a series of reps which mimicks the number of plays in a long controlled drive seems pretty significant to me. The weaker ones will have problems in the NFL unless they find an alternative like hand skills.

bah007
02-21-2014, 03:39 PM
I'd rather see a powerball toss than a Bench Press burnout. How likely is it that Matthews will ever be forced to push a defender 24 consecutive times without any rest whatsoever?

Powerball toss measures explosive power, which is far more important than muscular endurance.

Blake
02-21-2014, 03:43 PM
Strength in the upper body in a series of reps which mimicks the number of plays in a long controlled drive seems pretty significant to me. The weaker ones will have problems in the NFL unless they find an alternative like hand skills.

Thats what you are going with? Bench press simulates a series of plays in a long drive down the field? Significant?

Bench press has little to do with a players ability. I dont think I have to spell it out but if a player does 5, then yes you have a problem, but all these prospects do about 20-30.

Blake
02-21-2014, 03:45 PM
I'd rather see a powerball toss than a Bench Press burnout. How likely is it that Matthews will ever be forced to push a defender 24 consecutive times without any rest whatsoever?

Powerball toss measures explosive power, which is far more important than muscular endurance.

Exactly. I am more worried about explosion (broad jump/vertical leap) and change of direction (cone drills) than bench press.

Playoffs
02-21-2014, 03:57 PM
Dane Brugler ‏@dpbrugler
Greg Robinson put up 32 reps of 225 lbs on the bench

Matthews 33 3/8" & 24 reps
Robinson 35" & 32 reps

vaughn mcclure ‏@vxmcclure23
130 pancake blocks for Robinson

Greg Gabriel ‏@greggabe
The power to knock people off the ball comes from a mans lower body and snap thru his hips not the bench

People are getting overly concerned about bench reps. They shouldn't. It is not an indicator of power. It's more endurance strength

Texian
02-21-2014, 04:04 PM
I'd rather see a powerball toss than a Bench Press burnout. How likely is it that Matthews will ever be forced to push a defender 24 consecutive times without any rest whatsoever?

Powerball toss measures explosive power, which is far more important than muscular endurance.

Thats what you are going with? Bench press simulates a series of plays in a long drive down the field? Significant?

Bench press has little to do with a players ability. I dont think I have to spell it out but if a player does 5, then yes you have a problem, but all these prospects do about 20-30.

BP is important for OL and DL, it indicates upper body strength. Important indicator for initial punch, controlling and directing opponent, leverage. < 25 225 reps says player needs to get stronger.

CloakNNNdagger
02-21-2014, 04:05 PM
NFL combine drills explained: Bench press (http://www.bigcatcountry.com/2013/2/19/4000646/nfl-combine-2013-drills-bench-press) [Feb 2013]

2013 NFL Combine OL Bench press reps (http://walterfootball.com/combine2013benchOL.php)

Blake
02-21-2014, 04:36 PM
BP is important for OL and DL, it indicates upper body strength. Important indicator for initial punch, controlling and directing opponent, leverage. < 25 225 reps says player needs to get stronger.

There are more effective ways to gauge punch power. Hell, there is a specific machine that does it.

Texian
02-21-2014, 04:57 PM
There are more effective ways to gauge punch power. Hell, there is a specific machine that does it.

Not at the Combine.

Honoring Earl 34
02-21-2014, 05:04 PM
Not at the Combine.

If your BP , VJ , and BJ add up to 70 or above , you're considered an explosive athlete . That used to be the rule of thumb for linemen anyhow .

Texian
02-21-2014, 05:08 PM
If your BP , VJ , and BJ add up to 70 or above , you're considered an explosive athlete . That used to be the rule of thumb for linemen anyhow .

Still is for all.

bah007
02-21-2014, 05:15 PM
BP is important for OL and DL, it indicates upper body strength. Important indicator for initial punch, controlling and directing opponent, leverage. < 25 225 reps says player needs to get stronger.

Regardless of what you may have heard or read, a max rep BP does not indicate strength. Anything over 8-12 reps is purely a test of muscular endurance.

A single rep BP would be a better indicator for initial punch, as it is only a single punch and not a test of how many punches in a row you can do before getting tired.

The difference between being able to do 20 reps or 25 reps is negligible as far as maximum strength is concerned.

Another issue with the BP is that it is done on your back with the bench as a stabilizer behind you. In a game situation, the player would be on his feet with no stabilizing force behind him to push back against.

Honoring Earl 34
02-21-2014, 05:15 PM
Still is for all.

I think JJ was in the 80 something . So was Mario and Vernon Davis while Travis Johnson was 68 .

thunderkyss
02-21-2014, 05:54 PM
Thats what you are going with? Bench press simulates a series of plays in a long drive down the field? Significant?

Bench press has little to do with a players ability. I dont think I have to spell it out but if a player does 5, then yes you have a problem, but all these prospects do about 20-30.

Bench press has little to do with an offensive linemans's ability. They rarely use their arms to muscle defenders, especially in pass pro. I want to see the big hogs pull/push a sled.

Defensive linemen on the other hand, they're benchpressing those big OL off the on every play. LBs too. I'm interested in a LBs bench.

Texian
02-21-2014, 06:24 PM
Bench press has little to do with an offensive linemans's ability. They rarely use their arms to muscle defenders, especially in pass pro. I want to see the big hogs pull/push a sled.

Defensive linemen on the other hand, they're benchpressing those big OL off the on every play. LBs too. I'm interested in a LBs bench.

The first thing OL do is use their arms, especially in the run game. The first they do is punch and try to establish position. Arms are extremely important in gaining leverage. That's why it's so important for DLineman to have good hand work and technique. Arm and head position is very important in controlling and directing Dlineman.

Mr.Scarface
02-22-2014, 06:06 PM
STAY FAR AWAY from Jake Matthews. He is OVERRATED. Watched him for 5 years....including High School. Name helps ALOT.