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beerlover
11-29-2013, 11:11 PM
Franchise QB, LT or shutdown corner :butterfly:

open for serious discussion only lets stick to subject:foottap:

steelbtexan
11-29-2013, 11:52 PM
Franchise QB, LT or shutdown corner :butterfly:

open for serious discussion only lets stick to subject:foottap:

Deion Sanders was one of a kind.

Revis is the best of this generation

Mel Blount and Willie Brown were the 2 shutdown CB's of my childhood.

So, yes I think shutdown CB is more rare than QB. I mean I consider Manning, Brady,Brees and Rodgers to be the elite QB's of this generation. How many shutdown CB's can you name?

SAMURAITEXAN
11-30-2013, 12:48 AM
Deion Sanders was one of a kind.

Revis is the best of this generation

Mel Blount and Willie Brown were the 2 shutdown CB's of my childhood.

So, yes I think shutdown CB is more rare than QB. I mean I consider Manning, Brady,Brees and Rodgers to be the elite QB's of this generation. How many shutdown CB's can you name?

I agree, shutdown corner is a rare breed than the other positions I think. However, an elite QB can win some games even with a bad team.

infantrycak
11-30-2013, 12:59 AM
Make that 3. Shutdown corner gets used far more than it actually exists. There are times when there are none. There are usually 3-5 elite QBs at any time.

powda
11-30-2013, 01:58 AM
More rare? The cb. Wins more games? The qb.

b0ng
11-30-2013, 02:02 AM
Shutdown CB's don't usually last as long as your franchise QB types. Lose a step and your "shutdown" days are pretty much over, Nnamdi Asomugha seems like a pretty good example of this.

I think the term elite gets thrown around a lot for QB's and I think it applies a lot less than what is bandied about. Manning and Brady are definitely elite but you don't really see elite guys at CB that are Manning or Brady's age. Usually they tend to slide over to being a really good safety.

I think with LT's it just seems like very few of them last a long time being considered elite. Walter Jones and Jonathan Ogden are the guys I see as being elite then and I think Joe Thomas is probably the consensus elite LT year in and year out elite LT right now with Clady (injury issues) and Brown (down year) being right on the outside of that elite bubble.

Harder to find has to be QB since every team is looking to find those guys as rookies. They make extremely stupid draft day decisions trying to find that guy, if you have it almost doesn't matter if the rest of the team is just average, they are almost always good for at least a playoff spot if not multiple CCG appearances.

steelbtexan
11-30-2013, 02:17 AM
Just thought of 2 more from the past.

Rod Woodson and Mike Haynes

powda
11-30-2013, 02:33 AM
Just thought of 2 more from the past.

Rod Woodson and Mike Haynes

Woodson was my all time favorite....freaking beast. Only blemish was his cowgirls stint.

bhsman
11-30-2013, 02:51 AM
How rare would you consider a shutdown fullback? :kitten:

HJam72
11-30-2013, 06:01 AM
How rare would you consider a shutdown fullback? :kitten:

It would be extremely rare for a fullback to shutdown receivers. :kitten:

Corrosion
11-30-2013, 08:01 AM
How many shutdown CB's can you name?

There is no such thing in todays NFL with the rules skewed so far in favor of the offense.

The shut down corner is extinct ....

ArlingtonTexan
11-30-2013, 09:17 AM
There is no such thing in todays NFL with the rules skewed so far in favor of the offense.

The shut down corner is extinct ....

In fact, CB is a volume position now. Probably better to have 3 or 4 at least average ones with a variety of body types and skills than one guy. Rick Smith's approach was initially correct at the position in terms of drafting one every year, but his execution of who to draft and the more need based approach to drafting of the last two years has made good philosophy moot.

Honoring Earl 34
11-30-2013, 10:13 AM
Michael Haynes and Lester Hayes as a duo ... Tha raiders .

As important as said shutdown corner is , I don't think ones ever been drafted #1 overall .

Texian
11-30-2013, 10:40 AM
Shutdown corner BUT a Franchise QB is the most important player on your team.

gwallaia
11-30-2013, 11:05 AM
But the way the rules have changed to favor receivers, the shut-down corners are going to be even more rare to the point of extinction.

Honoring Earl 34
11-30-2013, 11:10 AM
But the way the rules have changed to favor receivers, the shut-down corners are going to be even more rare to the point of extinction.

Good point ... the new term would be , catch limiting corner .

beerlover
11-30-2013, 12:13 PM
who is the best QB in the league right now?

is there a clear cut consensus franchise tackle?

have not seen Revis play this year with Tampa, but is there any CB who teams fear or avoid @ all costs?

good point made by Arlington in regards to CB becoming a volume position because of scarcity, in that vein does safety enter picture & how does his value measure up against top rated CB's?

bah007
11-30-2013, 12:32 PM
who is the best QB in the league right now?

is there a clear cut consensus franchise tackle?

have not seen Revis play this year with Tampa, but is there any CB who teams fear or avoid @ all costs?

good point made by Arlington in regards to CB becoming a volume position because of scarcity, in that vein does safety enter picture & how does his value measure up against top rated CB's?

1. Manning still appears to be the man. Although Brady seems to always get it done.

2. Joe Thomas and Ryan Clady are the consensus top LTs. I like Russell Okung as well.

3. Richard Sherman, without a doubt.

4. I look at S in today's league like this: I like a traditional FS as my SS, and I like a CB/FS hybrid as my FS. Because the TE is becoming popular again in the passing game, a FS like Earl Thomas is almost as valuable as a top tier CB.

infantrycak
11-30-2013, 12:59 PM
who is the best QB in the league right now?

is there a clear cut consensus franchise tackle?

Well you are changing up your question. As originally asked it wasn't about value of positions or who is absolute best (that definitionally means there is one of each). You asked about rarity for shutdown CB v. franchise QB or LT. For that it doesn't matter who is absolute best. Manning, Brady, Brees and Rodger are all clearly franchise QBs regardless of who is best.

have not seen Revis play this year with Tampa, but is there any CB who teams fear or avoid @ all costs?

3. Richard Sherman, without a doubt.

Revis pre-injury was approaching shutdown during his Revis island phase.

Sherman isn't even close as can be demonstrated by the Texans game. The Texans went after him all day long. Clearly he was not feared and avoided (although he should have been on the pick 6).

Deion was truly shutdown. QBs largely refrained from even throwing in his direction.

steelbtexan
11-30-2013, 01:02 PM
1. Manning still appears to be the man. Although Brady seems to always get it done.

2. Joe Thomas and Ryan Clady are the consensus top LTs. I like Russell Okung as well.

3. Richard Sherman, without a doubt.

4. I look at S in today's league like this: I like a traditional FS as my SS, and I like a CB/FS hybrid as my FS. Because the TE is becoming popular again in the passing game, a FS like Earl Thomas is almost as valuable as a top tier CB.



Great post,this is what the NFL is evolving into.

You need this and atleast 3 good CB's.

Maybe DJ will develop into the FS that you're looking for. I've got my doubts. Other than JoJo and KJ there are not NFL quality Hybrid nickle CB or the hybrid CB/FS on the roster. The best way to fill the CB/FS role is to sign a vet CB who's lost a step to fill that role. (Charles/Rod Woodson/Lott) all made the transition late in their careers.

Texecutioner
11-30-2013, 01:04 PM
Shutdown corner BUT a Franchise QB is the most important player on your team.

Read the thread. No one was debating that.

A franchise QB may be the most important player for sure, but finding an elite franchise shut down corner is a lot more rare to find. It's probably the hardest position in the league to find a dominant player at.

Texecutioner
11-30-2013, 01:07 PM
There is no such thing in todays NFL with the rules skewed so far in favor of the offense.

The shut down corner is extinct ....

That is not correct. It was just a few years ago when Revis had arguably the best season of all time for any CB even with these rules. Asom was killing it for the Raiders for years as a true shutdown corner. Hakim (However you spell his name) is the defensive player of the year this season in a lot of people's eyes. He's been shutting down a lot of guys all season long. You take him off the Patriots defense and they're nowhere near as good. He has been dominant all season long.

beerlover
11-30-2013, 02:50 PM
Well you are changing up your question. As originally asked it wasn't about value of positions or who is absolute best (that definitionally means there is one of each). You asked about rarity for shutdown CB v. franchise QB or LT. For that it doesn't matter who is absolute best. Manning, Brady, Brees and Rodger are all clearly franchise QBs regardless of who is best.


Revis pre-injury was approaching shutdown during his Revis island phase.

Sherman isn't even close as can be demonstrated by the Texans game. The Texans went after him all day long. Clearly he was not feared and avoided (although he should have been on the pick 6).

Deion was truly shutdown. QBs largely refrained from even throwing in his direction.

Just exploring all angles how one defines such questions with draft rankings/value per position @ forefront. I defer these questions to my fellow Texans, I never lay any claim to being an expert on these things. I can scout College to Pro but after that there are so many influencing factors to consider sometimes unrelated to their actual grade.

Really enjoy everyone's input, including yours :handshake:

powda
11-30-2013, 03:09 PM
As long a megatron is playing CAN there be a shutdown corner?

badboy
11-30-2013, 03:12 PM
Franchise QB, LT or shutdown corner :butterfly:

open for serious discussion only lets stick to subject:foottap:Hopefully, my comment does not deter from your question, but I think there is one of these in 2014 draft. Matthews. I think only one other franchise type position is represented and that is C J Mosley at ILB. So you guys that always push BPA have to draft one of these even over a trade down.

Texian
11-30-2013, 03:14 PM
Read the thread. No one was debating that.

A franchise QB may be the most important player for sure, but finding an elite franchise shut down corner is a lot more rare to find. It's probably the hardest position in the league to find a dominant player at.

I did. My answer was: Shutdown Corner. I added a caveat. Are you a little hungover today?:drunk:

beerlover
11-30-2013, 03:25 PM
Hopefully, my comment does not deter from your question, but I think there is one of these in 2014 draft. Matthews. I think only one other franchise type position is represented and that is C J Mosley at ILB. So you guys that always push BPA have to draft one of these even over a trade down.

Good as always BB! It's difficult to sort out BPA without preconceived opinions. Now we can agree/disagree better per position projecting forward in context of rarity of position, upside of prospect all within fabric of a teams salary cap moving forward to ensure future roster balance.

badboy
11-30-2013, 03:43 PM
Good as always BB! It's difficult to sort out BPA without preconceived opinions. Now we can agree/disagree better per position projecting forward in context of rarity of position, upside of prospect all within fabric of a teams salary cap moving forward to ensure future roster balance.Yep and why you and I and some others do what we do and love it. Unlike some years, 2014 should offer some quality candidates for our needs. I can spend hours on a mock and then ten minutes after I complete do another. :handshake:

ArlingtonTexan
11-30-2013, 04:06 PM
eagles-jason-avant-there-are-no-shutdown-corners-in-the-nfl

Probably want this from a better Wr, but given the nature of our the conversation

bhsman
11-30-2013, 04:11 PM
As long a megatron is playing CAN there be a shutdown corner?

Kareem did pretty well against him last year.

Playoffs
11-30-2013, 08:47 PM
Which is more rare?

Franchise QB, LT or shutdown corner?

D. The NFL GM who can determine which one is the one. :truck:

beerlover
12-01-2013, 10:39 AM
Ifo Ekpre-Olomu, CB Oregon could be that rare shutdown corner. Reminds me so much of Darrel Revis, similar size (eight career interceptions at Pittsburgh and made 39 tackles Junior season). Ifo just had 12 tackles alone against the Beavers in the Civil War, one INT & three breakups finishing his career (assuming he comes out early) w/Ducks having amassed 7 INT's, 175 tackles, 30 passes broken up as teams tried to feed the ball away from him his Junior season he developed into dominant run stopper & physical tackler.

He was my favorite DB coming into this season, based off just one season & he has done nothing to disappoint even though teams work away from his side. He still get's matched up one on one with other teams difficult assignment & rarely gets beat, competes for the ball with unreal instinct, hand placement with plus recover ability & closing speed.

BL :wesmantexanfan:

bah007
12-01-2013, 11:19 AM
I've got a first round grade on Ekpre-Olomu but I think that Gilbert, Oklahoma St and Verrett, TCU both possess better skills for the NFL. Gilbert is your best shot at a shutdown corner in this draft, in my opinion.

Playoffs
12-01-2013, 11:27 AM
Ifo Ekpre-Olomu, CB Oregon could be that rare shutdown corner...

Took me ~5 years to get "Nmandi Asomugha" pronounced correctly...

Can we just call him IEO or Vowel or something like that? :hankpalm:

beerlover
12-01-2013, 11:39 AM
like both players as well. Varrett reminds me of Dunta Robinson, Gilbert is more athlete than polished corner really like his return skills. Ifo is complete & would shine as a rookie. Also should mention Purifoy, Florida & Hampton, South Carolina (would be nice to reunite with Swearinger in 3rd) have announced they will be foregoing Senior seasons to enter the Draft.

beerlover
12-01-2013, 11:43 AM
Took me ~5 years to get "Nmandi Asomugha" pronounced correctly...

Can we just call him IEO or Vowel or something like that? :hankpalm:

IFO as in UFO....lol :ahhaha:

bah007
12-01-2013, 12:13 PM
Gilbert is definitely more raw than Verrett and Ifo. Those guys could step in and start day 1 for a lot of teams. But Gilbert's ceiling is significantly higher.

beerlover
12-01-2013, 12:38 PM
Gilbert is definitely more raw than Verrett and Ifo. Those guys could step in and start day 1 for a lot of teams. But Gilbert's ceiling is significantly higher.

I would like to see what Gilbert could do as a FS in the NFL. He is a ballhawk.

bhsman
12-01-2013, 01:55 PM
What about the cornerback from Mich. State? Marqueeze Dennard, IIRC?

beerlover
12-01-2013, 02:32 PM
What about the cornerback from Mich. State? Marqueeze Dennard, IIRC?

Ascending Player.

bah007
12-01-2013, 02:39 PM
I would like to see what Gilbert could do as a FS in the NFL. He is a ballhawk.

Depends on where he goes and what kind of system they run. I think he has more upside at CB but could definitely be an impact player at FS.

WolverineFan
12-01-2013, 02:43 PM
Depends on where he goes and what kind of system they run. I think he has more upside at CB but could definitely be an impact player at FS.

If you have a guy that can play on an island at CB then you leave him there. The versatility to play FS is nice, but a premiere CB is much more important.

This is, of course, assuming that Gilbert develops into a very good NFL CB.

beerlover
12-02-2013, 09:24 AM
When asked about Peterson, Eagles receiver Jason Avant said he's a very good player but not a shutdown cornerback because those players don't exist.

"There's no shutdown corners in this league," Avant said, per CSN Philly. "That's just the honest truth. There are very, very, very good players and (Peterson's) a very, very good player and that's just what you have.

"But in this league, with all of the rules and all of the things that that can transpire when the quarterback is accurate, there is no one that can literally be lock down. He's in the top two or three best, but there's still no lockdown (corner)."

Avant is correct that the rules are different from the days of Deion Sanders, but it's all relative. When it comes to players with shutdown skills, able to keep dynamic receivers from making big plays, Peterson is certainly in the conversation with Darrelle Revis and Richard Sherman.

Remember the Andre Johnson TD catch against Peterson, perfect position, everything where it needed to be but Andre played it perfectly above the rim & made one of his hall of fame catches. In this case, should that play count against a cornerback or just be chalked up to indefensible?

bah007
12-02-2013, 09:30 AM
Remember the Andre Johnson TD catch against Peterson, perfect position, everything where it needed to be but Andre played it perfectly above the rim & made one of his hall of fame catches. In this case, should that play count against a cornerback or just be chalked up to indefensible?

Indefensible. Sometimes there is only so much the defender can do. He played everything perfectly but it was a perfect throw and pass combo.

The only other option is to take a PI. Hard to say whether the coach would rather have you take the penalty or take your chances on a play where you're in perfect position.