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View Full Version : Keenum starter for Jacksonville game


sandmanx
11-18-2013, 04:40 PM
Just announced in the presser. At least that will get me to watch the game.

speedfreek
11-18-2013, 04:41 PM
Closest thing to a mea culpa I have ever heard..

Unfortunately, now, he has 2 QB's that feel their
coach doesn't believe in them (3 with yates..)

TJ

bigmck
11-18-2013, 04:43 PM
Just announced in the presser. At least that will get me to watch the game.

This has got to be one of the biggest upsets of the year. It sure didn't take Kubes long to do it.

JCTexan
11-18-2013, 04:44 PM
I absolutely hate Kubiak's reasoning behind benching Keenum. He wasn't looking beyond the Oakland game at all. Logically, wouldn't you want your inexperienced QB to get the game reps in a hurry up offense?

TheMatrix31
11-18-2013, 04:44 PM
I didn't expect anything else.

tvaughan
11-18-2013, 04:46 PM
The decision to yank Case is not going down any easier 24 hours later. I still can't quite fathom what was going on in his head.

Perhaps the dumbest, most out-of-touch coaching decision I have seen in my life. Certainly the dumbest one I can remember off the top of my head.

Thorn
11-18-2013, 04:47 PM
I didn't expect anything else.

Neither did I. Kubiak's days are numbered, as is Schaub's. The Texans will move on to another QB and another head coach. Water under bridge. Next year we'll all have something new to "discuss".

I said "discuss" just to be nice. :lol:

Trap_Star
11-18-2013, 04:49 PM
That Kubiak guy....he's so wishy washy.

Fred
11-18-2013, 04:50 PM
Unfortunately, now, he has 2 QB's that feel their
coach doesn't believe in them (3 with yates..)

TJ

If all the QBs are the pathetic whiny sensitive babies that people on this board think they are, then I don't want any of them on the team.

kiwitexansfan
11-18-2013, 04:52 PM
Starter yes, let's see who the closer is.

Hervoyel
11-18-2013, 04:52 PM
You know, Capers was kind of lost like this toward the end too if you recall. I remember he was pretty much a dead-coach walking toward the last few games of the season and I kind of felt sorry for him. It was impossible not to.

Gary's got that same sound and look today. It's all gotten away from him and he doesn't really understand how that happened or how to get hold of it again.

Marcus
11-18-2013, 04:54 PM
Ok, I'll bite.

He benched Keenum because nobody on offense had it together on picking up the blitz. They were teeing off every single down. He was trying to keep him from becoming a shell shocked turtle like David Carr.

Not that far-fetched. It makes sense if you at least try being a little objective, but I know that's a little too much to ask, so I won't bother.

JamesBill
11-18-2013, 04:57 PM
You know, Capers was kind of lost like this toward the end too if you recall. I remember he was pretty much a dead-coach walking toward the last few games of the season and I kind of felt sorry for him. It was impossible not to.

Gary's got that same sound and look today. It's all gotten away from him and he doesn't really understand how that happened or how to get hold of it again.

Sucks for Kubiak his world has completely turned upside down with his stroke.

Vance87
11-18-2013, 05:00 PM
Kubiak, if Case is having trouble picking up blitzes, TEACH HIM GOD DAMNIT! THAT'S YOUR JOB! Tell the O-line to step the F up!! And if he seriously can't do it then put Yates in there! BUT ENOUGH OF HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED II.

Norg
11-18-2013, 05:06 PM
For only one half that is MUHAHAHAHAHA

http://dy.snimg.com/story-image/1/14/3964598/108625-650-366.jpg

TheMatrix31
11-18-2013, 05:07 PM
Ok, I'll bite.

He benched Keenum because nobody on offense had it together on picking up the blitz. They were teeing off every single down. He was trying to keep him from becoming a shell shocked turtle like David Carr.

Not that far-fetched. It makes sense if you at least try being a little objective, but I know that's a little too much to ask, so I won't bother.

It's actually good coaching. But shhhhhh. Take him out of the game, put the other guy in, and work on the blitz pickups during practice.

silvrhand
11-18-2013, 05:09 PM
It's actually good coaching. But shhhhhh. Take him out of the game, put the other guy in, and work on the blitz pickups during practice.

Or call some bootlegs and get him on the edge where he's more productive, or be like Gary and keep calling the same plays cause you are stubbornly stuck on your system?

Wolf
11-18-2013, 05:09 PM
Guess I was wrong unless some higher up had a hand in this

steelbtexan
11-18-2013, 05:13 PM
Ok, I'll bite.

He benched Keenum because nobody on offense had it together on picking up the blitz. They were teeing off every single down. He was trying to keep him from becoming a shell shocked turtle like David Carr.

Not that far-fetched. It makes sense if you at least try being a little objective, but I know that's a little too much to ask, so I won't bother.

How's that Gary's a great HC we just need a new DC thingy working out for you. Remember when I said Gary should be fired after the 2009 and 2010 seasons and you thought Wade could come in and right all of the wrongs?

Would you finally agree that it's time for BoB to clean house and that includes the failure that is Rick Smith and start a new?

If BoB had cared to take care of his business back in 2010 the franchise wouldn't be in the sorry state it is currently in. You disagreed with me then, do you still disagree, or are you begining to see the light?

aussie_texan
11-18-2013, 05:15 PM
thank you gary now i can watch the jaguars game :kitten:

jaayteetx
11-18-2013, 05:18 PM
I got a feeling Bob and Gary might've had a conversation about this.

gafftop
11-18-2013, 05:20 PM
I think GK had to give MS one more chance. I saw him shake his head and cover his eyes a couple of times when Matt was in game. He just had to see if maybe MS had changed miraculously and I think he saw MS is MS. I don't expect to see MS anymore barring injury. I think TJ should be the backup.
MS should be inactive. If he is not sure about TJ now is the time to see.

texanhead08
11-18-2013, 05:23 PM
Kubiak is ****ing bi polar.

Sigma
11-18-2013, 05:23 PM
it's like preseason

first half starter QB

second half backup QB

tvaughan
11-18-2013, 05:26 PM
I don't expect to see MS anymore barring injury.

I thought this 4 weeks ago.

CretorFrigg
11-18-2013, 05:33 PM
I got a feeling Bob and Gary might've had a conversation about this.

I have the same feeling as well. I don't understand Gary's lovefest with Matt Schaub. Houston's over him. His teammates are over him. Kubiak is the only one who can't get over it.

htownfan32
11-18-2013, 05:34 PM
I think Kubes knows his job is gone. Schaub was his last ditch effort to keep it. He changed QBs in the hopes that Schaub could move the offense down into the red zone and we could perhaps score. It didn't work, Schaub is Schaub, and we lost. He knows nothing will save him now, not even going 8-8 from here on out.

Now that he knows it's over, he's putting Keenum back in because it's what's right for the future. No use in riding Schaub the lame horse anymore.

Just my take on things.

Norg
11-18-2013, 05:35 PM
I have the same feeling as well. I don't understand Gary's lovefest with Matt Schaub. Houston's over him. His teammates are over him. Kubiak is the only one who can't get over it.


uhh u don't know the team is over him ...???????? how do u know that

and it does not matter what Houston thinks they don't make football decisions

CretorFrigg
11-18-2013, 05:38 PM
uhh u don't know the team is over him ...???????? how do u know that

and it does not matter what Houston thinks they don't make football decisions

Didn't you see AJ's reaction to Matt Schaub? This team is frustrated. This team knows the season was wasted, partly due to Schaub. Did you see the amount of facepalms when Matt Schaub came in? It's frustrating enough for fans to see Schaub come in. We've seen what he's accomplished. Do you think the players are somehow not aware of how inept Schaub is? They played with him every day. They know he's not going to be our quarterback moving forward.

And yes, the opinion of Houston doesn't matter. It's not like we're a source of revenue or anything.

Marcus
11-18-2013, 05:39 PM
How's that Gary's a great HC we just need a new DC thingy working out for you. Remember when I said Gary should be fired after the 2009 and 2010 seasons and you thought Wade could come in and right all of the wrongs?

Would you finally agree that it's time for BoB to clean house and that includes the failure that is Rick Smith and start a new?

If BoB had cared to take care of his business back in 2010 the franchise wouldn't be in the sorry state it is currently in. You disagreed with me then, do you still disagree, or are you begining to see the light?

You've mistaken me for someone else who said that. I never said Wade would come in a right all wrongs, etc. And I would own up to it if I did, so get your facts straight.

But to answer your question . . . YES! I now think it's time for a change.

Happy?

Now, stop derailing the thread.

gwallaia
11-18-2013, 05:39 PM
Who will the starting coach be for Sunday's game?

Double Barrel
11-18-2013, 06:06 PM
You know, Capers was kind of lost like this toward the end too if you recall. I remember he was pretty much a dead-coach walking toward the last few games of the season and I kind of felt sorry for him. It was impossible not to.

Gary's got that same sound and look today. It's all gotten away from him and he doesn't really understand how that happened or how to get hold of it again.

Jack Pardee had that headset that got crooked when he looked lost. Never helped that the dern thing was not hooked up. Bud just wanted him to look "like a coach".

Rudy T had the puzzled look at the end, too, but his signature was the disheveled tie and crumpled suit.

Larry Dierker got there with the sunflower seed stuck to his lip that his tongue never could remove. Fortunately the camera zoomed in to catch the moment, and his hat being on crooked just completed the picture.

Dom Capers certainly had the look during 2-14. Sort of a mouth agape "duhhh" look with a blank stare. Epitomized the bewildered look.

Now we see Kubiak up in the box, lonely, both hands on his forehead, just wondering what the hell just happened in the past 8 weeks. I really believe him when he says "it's on me" and that he just doesn't know what went wrong and doesn't know how to fix it.

Us H-town fans are becoming pros at recognizing "the look" of head coaches/managers that have lost complete control. That's not a good thing.

Ok, I'll bite.

He benched Keenum because nobody on offense had it together on picking up the blitz. They were teeing off every single down. He was trying to keep him from becoming a shell shocked turtle like David Carr.

Not that far-fetched. It makes sense if you at least try being a little objective, but I know that's a little too much to ask, so I won't bother.

So, he was doing the young QB a favor by benching him to protect him. I see what you did there, like some kind of jedi fan mind trick. :fostering:

I know it's not popular, but I'm not completely sold on Case as the future. I certainly like some of what I have seen (like most fans), especially his ability to extend plays and do something special.

But, an NFL QB that cannot read defenses and pick up a blitz won't be an NFL QB for long. Defense now have tape on him, and they see one dimensional when they throw blitzes at him.

And I have wanted to see the "clutch factor" in some form, but his second half performances are not giving me much to believe in right now. And it's not all about being a rookie. We have too many examples the past couple of years of rookie QBs winning games with clutch moments. I want to believe in the dude, but I'm not going to wear blinders to do it. However, I do think they should give him some more time to see if he improves.

Otherwise, time to clean house and use that high draft pick on a [hopefully] franchise QB of the future.

Speedy
11-18-2013, 07:02 PM
Jack Pardee had that headset that got crooked when he looked lost. Never helped that the dern thing was not hooked up. Bud just wanted him to look "like a coach".


LMAO!!! I will never ever ever forget Pardee having the headset on and it not being plugged in. All-time classic!!

WolverineFan
11-18-2013, 07:06 PM
I absolutely hate Kubiak's reasoning behind benching Keenum. He wasn't looking beyond the Oakland game at all. Logically, wouldn't you want your inexperienced QB to get the game reps in a hurry up offense?

This is exactly what I was saying yesterday. Either I did a piss poor job getting my point across or people just refused to believe it. He doesn't care about the future, he cares about the now. Winning enough games to save his job is all that matters at this point.

TheMatrix31
11-18-2013, 07:08 PM
Why shouldn't that be all that matters to him? His job is to win games, not placate fans.

I wouldn't have done it, but I can certainly see why he did.

Bulls on Parade
11-18-2013, 07:10 PM
Starter yes, let's see who the closer is.
http://i.imgur.com/OHRtIx5.png

http://youtu.be/rY0WxgSXdEE

WolverineFan
11-18-2013, 07:11 PM
Or call some bootlegs and get him on the edge where he's more productive, or be like Gary and keep calling the same plays cause you are stubbornly stuck on your system?

You mean like the bootleg he ran in the 3rd quarter where Keenum took a 15 yard sack instead of throwing the ball away?

Kubiak has done an awful job of coaching this year (for a few years actually) but the fact that Keenum is borderline untouchable on this board is pathetic.

A lot of you want to talk about Kubiak and accountability. Well Keenum has struggled with the blitz in all 4 games. Hold him accountable and don't throw 100% of it on Kubiak and the O-Line when you threw 100% of it on Schaub 2 months ago.

EllisUnit
11-18-2013, 07:13 PM
Will this be another Keenum starts and Schaub finishes ? I dont know if my blood pressure could take that happening again.

WolverineFan
11-18-2013, 07:20 PM
Why shouldn't that be all that matters to him? His job is to win games, not placate fans.

I wouldn't have done it, but I can certainly see why he did.

Exactly what I was saying yesterday. A lot of fans were pissed about him ruining the future by "benching" Case. What they don't realize is that the future does not matter to Kubiak. Keeping his job is what matters.

Marcus
11-18-2013, 07:25 PM
I know it's not popular, but I'm not completely sold on Case as the future. I certainly like some of what I have seen (like most fans), especially his ability to extend plays and do something special.

But, an NFL QB that cannot read defenses and pick up a blitz won't be an NFL QB for long. Defense now have tape on him, and they see one dimensional when they throw blitzes at him.

And I have wanted to see the "clutch factor" in some form, but his second half performances are not giving me much to believe in right now. And it's not all about being a rookie. We have too many examples the past couple of years of rookie QBs winning games with clutch moments. I want to believe in the dude, but I'm not going to wear blinders to do it. However, I do think they should give him some more time to see if he improves.

Yeah, I think he deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt the rest of the season. I'm a little bit more optimistic of his ability to learn how to make the defense pay for blitzing him all the time.

And IMO, we tried that drafting a QB with high pick in the draft stuff. Too risky for my blood. We've got more important needs. You're gonna have to make a real strong case at the end of the season convincing me Keenum is not it. Right now, there are two things about him that stick out. He's mobile, and he throws it accurately downfield. Yeah, right now, he can't read a blitz worth a sh!t.

But that's correctable. Those other two things are not.

SchaubApologist
11-18-2013, 07:25 PM
Exactly what I was saying yesterday. A lot of fans were pissed about him ruining the future by "benching" Case. What they don't realize is that the future does not matter to Kubiak. Keeping his job is what matters.

this is why kubiak should be fired immediately.

TheMatrix31
11-18-2013, 07:26 PM
this is why kubiak should be fired immediately.

LOL WHAT.

Kubiak should be fired, but that's not why. You don't deserve to be fired because you try to win games. That's the entire purpose of playing football---to win games. A coach who's on the hot seat has to win games to save his job.

He should be fired because he's NOT winning games.

WolverineFan
11-18-2013, 07:27 PM
this is why kubiak should be fired immediately.

Well he should have been fired years ago, but yes I agree.

BeerTastesLikeVictory
11-18-2013, 07:29 PM
I know it's not popular, but I'm not completely sold on Case as the future. I certainly like some of what I have seen (like most fans), especially his ability to extend plays and do something special.

But, an NFL QB that cannot read defenses and pick up a blitz won't be an NFL QB for long. Defense now have tape on him, and they see one dimensional when they throw blitzes at him.

And I have wanted to see the "clutch factor" in some form, but his second half performances are not giving me much to believe in right now. And it's not all about being a rookie. We have too many examples the past couple of years of rookie QBs winning games with clutch moments. I want to believe in the dude, but I'm not going to wear blinders to do it. However, I do think they should give him some more time to see if he improves.

Otherwise, time to clean house and use that high draft pick on a [hopefully] franchise QB of the future.

Completely agree, and I'm a huge Case Homer, and UH alum. I've seen him do some fancy stuff in college, and he definitely has some intangibles we have yet to see in a Texans QB. That being said he has to read the defense better pre-snap. I'm hoping that can be taught and learned, and that's the real reason we need him to start the final 6 games. If marked improvement in this aspect does not happen then we at least know where in the draft we should pick a QB. I want the kid to win so bad, but I want the team to do well even more so. If that means drafting someone early and letting them take the reigns in 2014 then so be it.

EllisUnit
11-18-2013, 07:29 PM
LOL WHAT.

Kubiak should be fired, but that's not why. You don't deserve to be fired because you try to win games. That's the entire purpose of playing football---to win games. A coach who's on the hot seat has to win games to save his job.

He should be fired because he's NOT winning games.

if thats the case he would of made a change when Schaub was playing bad for all those games, infact only reason a change was made at was because of injury, Case played pretty good and Kubiak had no choice but to stick with him.

If not for the injury to Schaub then Case would still be inactive i bet.

SchaubApologist
11-18-2013, 07:37 PM
LOL WHAT.

Kubiak should be fired, but that's not why. You don't deserve to be fired because you try to win games. That's the entire purpose of playing football---to win games. A coach who's on the hot seat has to win games to save his job.

He should be fired because he's NOT winning games.

he is trying to win meaningless games at the expense of critical playing time for case keenum.

the texans need to know what they have in this kid; therefore, he should not be benched unless he is injured.

we know what we have in schaub, and we all know he will be cut June 1st.

THE SEASON IS EFFING OVER, it's time to look to the future and analyze what we have.

although, i encourage kubiak to keep it up because he is incapable of making good decisions and he'll only help our draft position. the man has lost the team. he is a loser.

Rey
11-18-2013, 07:39 PM
Good that he's starting. Was an awfully quick decision by kubiak. I wonder if he was pressured to go with keenum or what.

His comments really make less and less sense as the season goes on.

steelbtexan
11-18-2013, 07:43 PM
You've mistaken me for someone else who said that. I never said Wade would come in a right all wrongs, etc. And I would own up to it if I did, so get your facts straight.

But to answer your question . . . YES! I now think it's time for a change.

Happy?

Now, stop derailing the thread.

I'm petty sure that you called me out, saying I would rathe the Texans lose and be ight than the Texans win and be wrong. That was a bad assumption on you part. I absolutely hate losing and particularly hate going out to Reliant watching the same crap over and over Sunday after Sunday.

I've started a new game with the guys that sit around me. It's called when are the Texans going to do something stupid and blow this game.

SchaubApologist
11-18-2013, 07:44 PM
Good that he's starting. Was an awfully quick decision by kubiak. I wonder if he was pressured to go with keenum or what.

His comments really make less and less sense as the season goes on.

haha exactly... like this:

when asked if case could handle hurry up:

“You guys don’t understand and I’m trying to explain to you—let me try one more time,” Kubiak said. “I’m fine with Case in a two-minute situation. What I was doing, calling the game and some of the decisions, I made to go with to try and help the quarterback out and the offensive line out. It was fixing to be very difficult. It was fixing to be very fast for a young guy who has never been through it. That’s why I did what I did.”

and if he regrets his decision:

“Actually, I think I was really thinking of (Keenum) to be honest with you,” Kubiak said. “I’ve been in this league a long time and dealt with a lot of quarterbacks. I’m trying to develop one right now. Right or wrong, I made that decision because of the situation I thought I was fixing to put a young player in from my standpoint of what I was doing coaching wise. I don’t have time to explain that to y’all. That’s why I do what I did. He knows that. I talked to him about that.”

what is this babbling idiot talking about!!?? lol

CloakNNNdagger
11-18-2013, 07:46 PM
Jack Pardee had that headset that got crooked when he looked lost. Never helped that the dern thing was not hooked up. Bud just wanted him to look "like a coach".

Rudy T had the puzzled look at the end, too, but his signature was the disheveled tie and crumpled suit.

Larry Dierker got there with the sunflower seed stuck to his lip that his tongue never could remove. Fortunately the camera zoomed in to catch the moment, and his hat being on crooked just completed the picture.

Dom Capers certainly had the look during 2-14. Sort of a mouth agape "duhhh" look with a blank stare. Epitomized the bewildered look.

Now we see Kubiak up in the box, lonely, both hands on his forehead, just wondering what the hell just happened in the past 8 weeks. I really believe him when he says "it's on me" and that he just doesn't know what went wrong and doesn't know how to fix it.

Us H-town fans are becoming pros at recognizing "the look" of head coaches/managers that have lost complete control. That's not a good thing.



So, he was doing the young QB a favor by benching him to protect him. I see what you did there, like some kind of jedi fan mind trick. :fostering:

I know it's not popular, but I'm not completely sold on Case as the future. I certainly like some of what I have seen (like most fans), especially his ability to extend plays and do something special.

But, an NFL QB that cannot read defenses and pick up a blitz won't be an NFL QB for long. Defense now have tape on him, and they see one dimensional when they throw blitzes at him.

And I have wanted to see the "clutch factor" in some form, but his second half performances are not giving me much to believe in right now. And it's not all about being a rookie. We have too many examples the past couple of years of rookie QBs winning games with clutch moments. I want to believe in the dude, but I'm not going to wear blinders to do it. However, I do think they should give him some more time to see if he improves.

Otherwise, time to clean house and use that high draft pick on a [hopefully] franchise QB of the future.

Great post!..............Memories!

Keenum is too football smart in too many other ways. No one is going to convince me that he has been properly schooled by the coaching in avoiding the constant "massive" blitz attacks that he has been exposed to. Nor do I believe that if there was any semblance of an OL functioning, would he need to deal with the "unreasonable"............strongly implying that the coaching staff has failed in their duties to "control" their obviously (at least) inept OL personnel. Without successfully addressing these issues, no QB (including a Johnny Football type.......or even Peyton Manning) has any chance of success.................especially if he has no ability to audible.

SchaubApologist
11-18-2013, 07:50 PM
Great post!..............Memories!

Keenum is too football smart in too many other ways. No one is going to convince me that he has been properly schooled by the coaching in avoiding the constant "massive" blitz attacks that he has been exposed to. Nor do I believe that if there was any semblance of an OL functioning, would he need to deal with the "unreasonable"............strongly implying that the coaching staff has failed in their duties to "control" their obviously (at least) inept OL personnel. Without successfully addressing these issues, no QB (including a Johnny Football type.......or even Peyton Manning) has any chance of success.................especially if he has no ability to audible.

yep... it's not like case has been getting a lot of practice reps over the past year and a half.

he's literally been running the scout team. kubiak put all of his effort into fixing his love bird matt schaub. and, it probably set keenum back a little. not to mention hanging onto yates for some strange reason.

burro
11-18-2013, 07:58 PM
I don't think Kubiak knows what he's doing anymore. He's like a novice chess player who loses his queen and both knights in the first 10 moves; frantically moving pieces around the board and pretending its a strategy.

Everything this regime has done since the St. Louis game has wreaked of desperation - and it's bled into the game plan.

Vance87
11-18-2013, 08:07 PM
I don't think Kubiak knows what he's doing anymore. He's like a novice chess player who loses his queen and both knights in the first 10 moves; frantically moving pieces around the board and pretending its a strategy.

Everything this regime has done since the St. Louis game has wreaked of desperation - and it's bled into the game plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyAgWQqL-bE

Marcus
11-18-2013, 08:13 PM
I'm petty sure that you called me out, saying I would rather the Texans lose and be right than the Texans win and be wrong. That was a bad assumption on you part. I absolutely hate losing and particularly hate going out to Reliant watching the same crap over and over Sunday after Sunday.


You've been called out on so many things by so many different people, you can't keep track of who called you out for what. :lol:

CloakNNNdagger
11-18-2013, 08:36 PM
LMAO!!! I will never ever ever forget Pardee having the headset on and it not being plugged in. All-time classic!!

He funniest part of that was that Bud actually TOLD Pardee he did not care if the headset was plugged in or not.......just wear it!

Norg
11-18-2013, 08:37 PM
actually we can still when the divison at 8-8 colts just have to lose out I think but intill then I guess the season is over

but there not giving any of the young and bench players starting time shouldn't they be doing that this week and putting most of the Vets on IR

Goatcheese
11-18-2013, 08:49 PM
I don't think it matters. The answer at QB isn't on the roster.

The game is too fast and complicated for Keenum and 6 more games aren't going to change that. He looks good on deep throws where he can sit and stare at a route for a second or two before making a decision, but when he needs to read the defense, see where the coverage is and go through his progressions in a split second, he just can't do it. Kubiak pulling him when he needed to change up the offense to more presnap and quick reads tells me the kid can't understand and run an NFL offense.

His ceiling is Rex Grossman territory.

speedfreek
11-18-2013, 09:17 PM
The game is too fast and complicated for Keenum and 6 more games aren't going to change that.

You should be a QB coach -- after all anyone who could make that
kind of assessment after watching 3.5 games on TV is clearly
some kind of savant...

TJ

Goatcheese
11-18-2013, 09:28 PM
You should be a QB coach -- after all anyone who could make that
kind of assessment after watching 3.5 games on TV is clearly
some kind of savant...

TJ

You don't have to be a dermatologist to see a zit.

SchaubApologist
11-18-2013, 09:40 PM
I don't think it matters. The answer at QB isn't on the roster.

The game is too fast and complicated for Keenum and 6 more games aren't going to change that. He looks good on deep throws where he can sit and stare at a route for a second or two before making a decision, but when he needs to read the defense, see where the coverage is and go through his progressions in a split second, he just can't do it. Kubiak pulling him when he needed to change up the offense to more presnap and quick reads tells me the kid can't understand and run an NFL offense.

His ceiling is Rex Grossman territory.

are you sure it's not kubiaks "super complicated/intricate offense" that's confusing case?

lol, you will never live that down.

cbs1507
11-18-2013, 09:58 PM
Kubiak, if Case is having trouble picking up blitzes, TEACH HIM GOD DAMNIT! THAT'S YOUR JOB! Tell the O-line to step the F up!! And if he seriously can't do it then put Yates in there! BUT ENOUGH OF HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED II.


4 weeks in a row teams blitzed him crazy in the 2nd half. You think they hadn't talked it by now? It's on Keenum if he can't make the hot read and get it out quick. You can only lead a horse to water...smh

:kubepalm:

2slik4u
11-18-2013, 10:05 PM
Neither did I. Kubiak's days are numbered, as is Schaub's. The Texans will move on to another QB and another head coach. Water under bridge. Next year we'll all have something new to "discuss".

I said "discuss" just to be nice. :lol:

I wish I shared your optimism. I really hope kubiak is gone. Schaub is as good as done, that I know.

Vance87
11-18-2013, 10:08 PM
4 weeks in a row teams blitzed him crazy in the 2nd half. You think they hadn't talked it by now? It's on Keenum if he can't make the hot read and get it out quick. You can only lead a horse to water...smh

:kubepalm:

My post clearly had me saying if Keenum can't do it then put Yates in...but enough of #8. So here's a face palm for you too.

:kubepalm:

tvaughan
11-18-2013, 10:21 PM
4 weeks in a row teams blitzed him crazy in the 2nd half. You think they hadn't talked it by now? It's on Keenum if he can't make the hot read and get it out quick. You can only lead a horse to water...smh


Thing is, they're not even disguising the blitzes. Something more is going on here than just Keenum "can't read blitzes."

There doesn't seem to be any hot routes to throw to! There doesn't seem to be any adjustments from the offense at all. They seem to be doing exactly what they want to be doing and just hoping Keenum has enough time to do it. Which he doesn't. 5 step drops? In an obvious all out blitz?

Schaub was not very good with blitzes either. The scheme seems to have a problem with blitzes.

Has the threat of a running game been the primary deterrent of the blitz? With that gone the scheme can't handle it? Why are there no plays designed specifically to exploit a blitz? I don't understand.

Keenum did not just suddenly get stupid. I'm not buying that it's 100% Keenum's fault at all. The problem is deeper.

Brisco_County
11-18-2013, 10:36 PM
Ok, I'll bite.

He benched Keenum because nobody on offense had it together on picking up the blitz. They were teeing off every single down. He was trying to keep him from becoming a shell shocked turtle like David Carr.

Not that far-fetched. It makes sense if you at least try being a little objective, but I know that's a little too much to ask, so I won't bother.

This relates to what Kubiak said.

“What was happening was, we had to make a lot of changes from a protection standpoint to handle some of the things they were doing,” Kubiak said after the game. “Trying to create some tempo and do that. And it made it very tough on Case, in my opinion, being a young player. I knew that Matt could get done some of the things that I wanted to get done, real fast, and to give us a chance to win the football game. So that’s why I did it.”


Asked if he regrets the decision to insert Schaub, Kubiak said he does not.

“Actually, I think I was really thinking of (Keenum) to be honest with you,” Kubiak said. “I’ve been in this league a long time and dealt with a lot of quarterbacks. I’m trying to develop one right now. Right or wrong, I made that decision because of the situation I thought I was fixing to put a young player in from my standpoint of what I was doing coaching wise. I don’t have time to explain that to y’all. That’s why I do what I did. He knows that. I talked to him about that.”


They made changes that Keenum wouldn't have been able to manage, and the team got in position to win. If Schaub makes that touchdown, the players retain some pride and Kubiak earns back some credibility. But that win would have only temporarily doused the frustrations of the players and FO, and those frustrations surfaced in an ugly way when the final drive failed.

This current lowpoint has followed the model of a business concept that I learned a long time ago: Profit covers up a lot of problems that aren't discovered until failure is imminent. In this analogy, "profit" means "wins." Sometimes a business gets lucky with demand and an uncompetitive market, and the resulting profit prevents improvement to the operation. All the existing inefficiencies, the waste, and the complacency is left unaddressed because managers only know how to fix problems by searching for smoke. Suddenly, the tide lowers, your competitors move in, and the customers become more sophisticated. The easy money becomes a trickle, and your operation is seized by a lack of preparation before collapsing.

For the past three years, the talents of our elite players carried this team through favorable schedules and a weak division. Then injuries hit, the schedule got tougher, and the Colts got better. The lowering tide revealed poor decisions in personnel, weakness in the offensive line, and an unreliable starting quarterback. Lacking preparation, the operation seized and collapsed, and the remaining elite players were left disillusioned by the revelation of such longstanding mediocrity.

As Zierlein said, Andre's blowup wasn't really directed at Schaub; It was condensed frustration uncorked by a few simple words from the quarterback who represented the systemic mediocrity that Andre's ambitions stood upon for 11 years. If that quarterback wins the game, Andre may not feel frustration, but he also won't feel much of anything.

I think Kubiak probably made the right decision at that time to win the game, but Andre's blowup and McNair's post game meetings have now made it clear: The system is done. It's over. The objective is now about allowing the fans and players to enjoy the excitement and confidence that Keenum brings. Do whatever possible to allow the last remaining games to be enjoyable. And Kubiak will do that because he cares for the players too.

DX-TEX
11-18-2013, 11:22 PM
Can I get some details on these "meetings" please?

Dishman
11-18-2013, 11:31 PM
Neither did I. Kubiak's days are numbered, as is Schaub's. The Texans will move on to another QB and another head coach. Water under bridge. Next year we'll all have something new to "discuss".

I said "discuss" just to be nice. :lol:

So you're saying we're drafting Teddy Bridgewater next year?

steelbtexan
11-18-2013, 11:47 PM
You've been called out on so many things by so many different people, you can't keep track of who called you out for what. :lol:

Whoever called me out needs to pay up $$$$$.

See, I put my $$$$ where my mouth is. No AFC championship game, no SB, No playoffs. I'm looking at you fiddler/DM.

I'm sorry if things didn't work out as planned fo the Smubiak sunshiners. It's been past time to move on since 2009/2010. I'm just LMAO at the Texans begining to air their dirty laundry in public.

Decisions like the one Gary made replacing Keenum have been going on for yrs behind the scenes. Gary has his favorites and they get preferential teatment. See: Marciano/Bullock/Schaub etc.... But finally all of those chickens are coming home to roost.

Which as a longtime fan makes me kinda sad to see the sad state the fanchise is currently in. Bottom line is this is all on you BoB, not Gary.

JCTexan
11-18-2013, 11:58 PM
LOL WHAT.

Kubiak should be fired, but that's not why. You don't deserve to be fired because you try to win games. That's the entire purpose of playing football---to win games. A coach who's on the hot seat has to win games to save his job.

He should be fired because he's NOT winning games.

This team was 2-7 entering the Raiders game. The game was about as meaningless as it could get in November. Might as well leave Keenum in and get him some in-game experience in the hurry up offense. But no, Kubiak was about as shortsighted as you could get and benched Keenum, who was ineffective but not terrible at all. In his place Kubiak decided to go with Schaub, a player who has one foot out the door already and has no future with the Texans. Winning, IMO, doesn't cure anything when your Head Coach lacks any long term vision for this franchise.

Nitrofish
11-19-2013, 12:40 AM
You mean like the bootleg he ran in the 3rd quarter where Keenum took a 15 yard sack instead of throwing the ball away?

Kubiak has done an awful job of coaching this year (for a few years actually) but the fact that Keenum is borderline untouchable on this board is pathetic.

A lot of you want to talk about Kubiak and accountability. Well Keenum has struggled with the blitz in all 4 games. Hold him accountable and don't throw 100% of it on Kubiak and the O-Line when you threw 100% of it on Schaub 2 months ago.

Great post, they are making excuses for Keenum and lambasting Schaub while blaming every loss on him.

LOL WHAT.

Kubiak should be fired, but that's not why. You don't deserve to be fired because you try to win games. That's the entire purpose of playing football---to win games. A coach who's on the hot seat has to win games to save his job.

He should be fired because he's NOT winning games.

Rep if I could!


I'm petty sure that you called me out, saying I would rathe the Texans lose and be ight than the Texans win and be wrong. That was a bad assumption on you part. I absolutely hate losing and particularly hate going out to Reliant watching the same crap over and over Sunday after Sunday.

I've started a new game with the guys that sit around me. It's called when are the Texans going to do something stupid and blow this game.

Nice new game. I guess it shows what a great fan you are by trying to convince the rest of the fan base how knowledgeable you are on the teams affairs. I mean how the heck does any organization ever get along without guys like you to keep them on the path?

Good thing I am not sitting in your section because I would be playing the "Keep your fair weather opinion to yourself" game or maybe even "accidentally spill my beer my on the loudmouth drunken redneck" Those are always crowd favorites!

I don't think it matters. The answer at QB isn't on the roster.

The game is too fast and complicated for Keenum and 6 more games aren't going to change that. He looks good on deep throws where he can sit and stare at a route for a second or two before making a decision, but when he needs to read the defense, see where the coverage is and go through his progressions in a split second, he just can't do it. Kubiak pulling him when he needed to change up the offense to more presnap and quick reads tells me the kid can't understand and run an NFL offense.

His ceiling is Rex Grossman territory.

rep if I could.

Whoever called me out needs to pay up $$$$$.

See, I put my $$$$ where my mouth is. No AFC championship game, no SB, No playoffs. I'm looking at you fiddler/DM.

I'm sorry if things didn't work out as planned fo the Smubiak sunshiners. It's been past time to move on since 2009/2010. I'm just LMAO at the Texans begining to air their dirty laundry in public.

Decisions like the one Gary made replacing Keenum have been going on for yrs behind the scenes. Gary has his favorites and they get preferential teatment. See: Marciano/Bullock/Schaub etc.... But finally all of those chickens are coming home to roost.

Which as a longtime fan makes me kinda sad to see the sad state the fanchise is currently in. Bottom line is this is all on you BoB, not Gary.

Who are you kidding? look at how you are gloating now, which easily shows that you are more concerned with being right than hoping the team wins. Fans like you would do anything to see Schaub and/or Kubiak, fail so you can point your boney finger and say "See I Told You So"

I sure hope uncle Bob signs over the club to you already so you can straighten things out for us poor Houston fans. Until that day comes I am going on a hunger strike, and I recommend you all do the same.

Sign the petition to make steelbtexan Owner/GM/HC/DC and president of football operations immediately at www.yougottabe****ingkiddingme.com

MEGA SWATT
11-19-2013, 12:56 AM
Hope he starts and stays in the whole game.

steelbtexan
11-19-2013, 02:09 AM
Great post, they are making excuses for Keenum and lambasting Schaub while blaming every loss on him.


(Quote///) I've got no excuses for Keenum, I do have hope that he improves. Sorry things didn't work out for Gary/Rick/Schaub and the crew. It's time to move on, bring in new blood and hopefully a winner. (Actually it's 3 yrs past time.




Nice new game. I guess it shows what a great fan you are by trying to convince the rest of the fan base how knowledgeable you are on the teams affairs. I mean how the heck does any organization ever get along without guys like you to keep them on the path?

(Quote///) Cant help the team finds new ways to lose evey week. I decided to have fun with it and would suggest you do the same. Because if they lose to the Jags Sunday it will be awhile until they get their next win. (Next yr)

Good thing I am not sitting in your section because I would be playing the "Keep your fair weather opinion to yourself" game or maybe even "accidentally spill my beer my on the loudmouth drunken redneck" Those are always crowd favorites!

(Quote////) Come on down to section 326, Several of us have been there since the begining and we always have fun. Regardless of the repeated levels of the Texans ineptitude there's fun to be had.







Who are you kidding? look at how you are gloating now, which easily shows that you are more concerned with being right than hoping the team wins. Fans like you would do anything to see Schaub and/or Kubiak, fail so you can point your boney finger and say "See I Told You So"

I sure hope uncle Bob signs over the club to you already so you can straighten things out for us poor Houston fans. Until that day comes I am going on a hunger strike, and I recommend you all do the same.

Sign the petition to make steelbtexan Owner/GM/HC/DC and president of football operations immediately at www.yougottabe****ingkiddingme.com

(Quote////) Do you really believe in 11 yrs and missing 3 games and traveling with the team once a y that I would EVER root for the Texans to lose? I hate losing, losing is for losers ans begats more losing. That's why I never root for the Texans to tank. But I do know a losing org when I see one and Rick/Gary are that. (Sorry)

BTW, where have you been, you must be busy, because since the Texans have been on this losing streak and you're boy Schaubie got benched you haven't been posting very much. It's hot in the kitchen right now and I predict it's going to get hotter before the season is over.

Sigma
11-19-2013, 08:42 AM
LOL WHAT.

Kubiak should be fired, but that's not why. You don't deserve to be fired because you try to win games. That's the entire purpose of playing football---to win games. A coach who's on the hot seat has to win games to save his job.

He should be fired because he's NOT winning games.

I rather think that the purpose of playing football is to be a successful franchise (=team)

ofc you do that winning games, but now winning game is no good for us.

I don't like the idea of tanking games, but I can't see what good can come from finishing the season 8-8 rather than 2-14 (unless ofc you are the seahawks of some years ago that finished 7-9 and won the division)

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 08:53 AM
You should be a QB coach -- after all anyone who could make that
kind of assessment after watching 3.5 games on TV is clearly
some kind of savant...

TJ

yeah....b/c everyone who watches football wasn't calling Blaine Gabbert trash after only a handful of few presesason & regular season games....Ditto for Geno Smith.

Bias on both sides of the fence around here.

amazing80
11-19-2013, 09:08 AM
yeah....b/c everyone who watches football wasn't calling Blaine Gabbert trash after only a handful of few presesason & regular season games....Ditto for Geno Smith.

Bias on both sides of the fence around here.

while i agree there is bias around here, can anyone honestly say case has been given a fair shot? even at practice he splits time, so if he cant handle or read the hot route on the blitz its 100% garys fault for not teaching this. there is no reason to give schaub any reps in practice. meaningless wins by schaub in november are meaningless. give case 100% reps and let him try to get wins. the FUTURE of this organization is based on how case plays and improves. thats why gary and his bias should be fired now. he does not have our FUTURE in his current plans and if case is not our qb next year, this off-season is going to be rough. adding a legit qb to the list of needs will be devastating imo.

steelbtexan
11-19-2013, 09:09 AM
I rather think that the purpose of playing football is to be a successful franchise (=team)

ofc you do that winning games, but now winning game is no good for us.

I don't like the idea of tanking games, but I can't see what good can come from finishing the season 8-8 rather than 2-14 (unless ofc you are the seahawks of some years ago that finished 7-9 and won the division)

The difference between 7-9 (Check out Dex sig) and picking 10-15 vs 1-3 is millions of $$$$ which is why most owners would rather their teams not tank.

Exascor
11-19-2013, 09:15 AM
The difference between 7-9 (Check out Dex sig) and picking 10-15 vs 1-3 is millions of $$$$ which is why most owners would rather their teams not tank.

Sorry steel. That has to be one of the dumbest things I've seen posted in a while. The NFL has a salary cap. High draft picks fit under the cap easily. For teams that don't stay up against the cap they bring excitement/hope which means more money.

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 10:11 AM
while i agree there is bias around here, can anyone honestly say case has been given a fair shot? even at practice he splits time, so if he cant handle or read the hot route on the blitz its 100% garys fault for not teaching this. there is no reason to give schaub any reps in practice. meaningless wins by schaub in november are meaningless. give case 100% reps and let him try to get wins. the FUTURE of this organization is based on how case plays and improves. thats why gary and his bias should be fired now. he does not have our FUTURE in his current plans and if case is not our qb next year, this off-season is going to be rough. adding a legit qb to the list of needs will be devastating imo.

Well, Gary has to know himself that he likely isn't in this teams future plans if he doesn't get this crap turned around asap....so tell me again why he would be so incumbent upon giving case every chance to succeed again? Dude is trying to win games & like it or not, he did that for 2 years with Schaub.

It's also funny that i hear all this "give case a legitimate chance" bark from everyone but you don't hear that same bark for TJ Yates though. I mean here's a guy who himself only started 8 games for this team, won a few of them including a playoff game, came into the season as the #2 & yet he was passed over for the starting job when Schaub went down in favor of the #3 guy. It's highly likely that Case doesn't do much more in these final games to say he definitely should be the starter. Is everyone going to be willing to put Keenum out to pasture like they did TJ? My guess is no. It'll be something else then...

"oh, well with a new coach i think he can improve.." - Maybe, Maybe not.
"well it was only 8-9 games, & it usually takes a full season of games to really figure out if a guy can play or not.." - Is that right? well TJ only got & he was done in everyone's eyes..

You guys don't see the fail in your logic. Understand that Kubiak made the decision to pass over TJ Yates & give case a shot in the 1st place even though it would've been very easy to justify going with TJ. Now all of a sudden he's sabotaging Case with playcalling & god knows everything else just so he can get his boy Schaub back in? You guys aren't making any sense.

TejasTom
11-19-2013, 10:23 AM
Case will probably be cut at the end of the season. Patriots will pick him up. We'll see what a great coach does with him.

tedr
11-19-2013, 10:25 AM
I find it hilarious that there are some who say Keenum is not NFL starting quality after only four games. Yeah, he's had trouble with the blitz- so what, he's basically a rookie. We have a bad O-line, and it doesn't look like we're playing to his strengths with a lot of the play calling. It looks like we're trying to make him fit into a Matt Schaub offense, instead of Kubiak realizing he's different and utilizing some of his tools. I think even Andre said it the other day- the calls didn't change when Matt came in.

tedr
11-19-2013, 10:29 AM
Well, Gary has to know himself that he likely isn't in this teams future plans if he doesn't get this crap turned around asap....so tell me again why he would be so incumbent upon giving case every chance to succeed again? Dude is trying to win games & like it or not, he did that for 2 years with Schaub.

It's also funny that i hear all this "give case a legitimate chance" bark from everyone but you don't hear that same bark for TJ Yates though. I mean here's a guy who himself only started 8 games for this team, won a few of them including a playoff game, came into the season as the #2 & yet he was passed over for the starting job when Schaub went down in favor of the #3 guy. It's highly likely that Case doesn't do much more in these final games to say he definitely should be the starter. Is everyone going to be willing to put Keenum out to pasture like they did TJ? My guess is no. It'll be something else then...



"oh, well with a new coach i think he can improve.." - Maybe, Maybe not.
"well it was only 8-9 games, & it usually takes a full season of games to really figure out if a guy can play or not.." - Is that right? well TJ only got & he was done in everyone's eyes..

You guys don't see the fail in your logic. Understand that Kubiak made the decision to pass over TJ Yates & give case a shot in the 1st place even though it would've been very easy to justify going with TJ. Now all of a sudden he's sabotaging Case with playcalling & god knows everything else just so he can get his boy Schaub back in? You guys aren't making any sense.

I don't know of anybody here that thinks TJ can be the long term solution. Putting Case in before TJ was the right decision, but as I just said in another post, they should utilize Case's strengths, which they haven't been doing enough of.

Hervoyel
11-19-2013, 10:34 AM
Give Case a legitimate chance is all I'm saying. Don't pull him in the third quarter of a close game like Kubiak did. Apparently he didn't get the memo that the world has stuck a fork in his team and his job. It's evaluation time and you don't evaluate a young QB or teach him how to deal with pressure by sitting him down and giving him a Capri Sun juice bag while you put someone else in to do the job. I heard his explanation and I buy that he's rationalized it that way.

Show me the QB who learned how to handle being blitzed into ineffectiveness in 4 games. I want to know who that guy is. We've seen the good things Case can do and we (along with all the DC's in the league) have seen the things he doesn't do well. What we need to know is whether or not he gets better with some experience.

You don't get experience from the bench.

Additionally if you're not a Case fan and you want to see the UH alums shut up (or make way for the A&M alums if you want to be honest) then you should be adamant that Case be left out there. You don't think he's the answer. You think his ceiling is Rex Grossman-like. Fine. It's a valid opinion unless and until he can manage to prove otherwise. If I felt that way I'd want everyone who won't shut up about Case to see it happen so that when draft comes around they'll shut up about their hero and accept the new QB that gets drafted.

Case needs to play every possible minute of the next 6 games. Fans and critics alike should agree on that completely.

Exascor
11-19-2013, 10:37 AM
It's also funny that i hear all this "give case a legitimate chance" bark from everyone but you don't hear that same bark for TJ Yates though. I mean here's a guy who himself only started 8 games for this team, won a few of them including a playoff game, came into the season as the #2 & yet he was passed over for the starting job when Schaub went down in favor of the #3 guy. It's highly likely that Case doesn't do much more in these final games to say he definitely should be the starter. Is everyone going to be willing to put Keenum out to pasture like they did TJ? My guess is no. It'll be something else then...

TJ Yates - 3 TD 6 INT
Case Keenum - 8 TD 1 INT

BTW - 2 of TJs INTs were THIS season on 22 attempts. TJ should have come in for Schaub and lit the place on fire. Instead he mimicked Schaub. I'd rather TJ than Schaub but that isn't saying much.

Keenum has 6 more games to audition for the job in 2014. He hasn't looked great but given his experience level he's looked pretty good. The new coach (hopefully) will need to evaluate him and decide if he has the potential to stick with him or if the team needs to look elsewhere for a replacement or at least solid competition.

amazing80
11-19-2013, 10:40 AM
Well, Gary has to know himself that he likely isn't in this teams future plans if he doesn't get this crap turned around asap....so tell me again why he would be so incumbent upon giving case every chance to succeed again? Dude is trying to win games & like it or not, he did that for 2 years with Schaub.

It's also funny that i hear all this "give case a legitimate chance" bark from everyone but you don't hear that same bark for TJ Yates though. I mean here's a guy who himself only started 8 games for this team, won a few of them including a playoff game, came into the season as the #2 & yet he was passed over for the starting job when Schaub went down in favor of the #3 guy. It's highly likely that Case doesn't do much more in these final games to say he definitely should be the starter. Is everyone going to be willing to put Keenum out to pasture like they did TJ? My guess is no. It'll be something else then...

"oh, well with a new coach i think he can improve.." - Maybe, Maybe not.
"well it was only 8-9 games, & it usually takes a full season of games to really figure out if a guy can play or not.." - Is that right? well TJ only got & he was done in everyone's eyes..

You guys don't see the fail in your logic. Understand that Kubiak made the decision to pass over TJ Yates & give case a shot in the 1st place even though it would've been very easy to justify going with TJ. Now all of a sudden he's sabotaging Case with playcalling & god knows everything else just so he can get his boy Schaub back in? You guys aren't making any sense.

i was one of the loudest voices PRO YAYES so dont go spouting off at the mouth. but even i agree after watching case play, he brings more than schaub and yates EVER did. if you cant see that then youre an idiot, nothing more to say

YeaLikeRightNow
11-19-2013, 10:52 AM
This has got to be one of the biggest upsets of the year. It sure didn't take Kubes long to do it.

Man....Kubes sure is wishy-washy. :fingergun:

santo
11-19-2013, 10:56 AM
Case will probably be cut at the end of the season. Patriots will pick him up. We'll see what a great coach does with him.

I wouldn't be surprised if Green Bay or New Orleans would take a look at him.

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 10:56 AM
I don't know of anybody here that thinks TJ can be the long term solution. Putting Case in before TJ was the right decision, but as I just said in another post, they should utilize Case's strengths, which they haven't been doing enough of.

Not saying yates is the long term solution...but them going with case being the "right" decision? based on what? a spark? I honestly believe that putting anyone under center besides Schaub would've given this team the same spark..but

Lets analyze this "strengths" argument.

Mobility - ok, we've run a good amount of rollouts & play action bootlegs that have put that to use...but we haven't been running the ball well & as a result the rollouts & play action bootlegs haven't had the same effect as they normally would. Teams are also just on it. The ends are playing disciplined & are waiting on it. Now, unless you're 1 of the people advocating we run zone read or something, i don't see how the coaching staff can utilize this skill any more than they have been. It's largely on Case to put that in play.

the deep ball - the playcalling has been there for that evidenced by how much he was connecting deep in the 1st 2 games. But defenses are hip to that now & the last 2 games they've endeavored to take it away from him. He hit none in the AZ game and only 1 in the last game. In addition to this, teams are blitzing the hell out of him. So even if the coaches were sabotaging him & not calling deep shots, he hasn't had alot of time to sit back & let that deep stuff develop anyway.

He worked alot out of shotgun & spread formations at U of H .....we've been damn near exclusively running out of the shotgun & have seen an uptick in our spread packages...

I mean what the hell else do u want the coaches to do to try & do to utilize his strengths more short of changing the whole damn offense....which will effect everyone...Then we'd be losing games b/c of miscues on offense instead.

Troy Chapman
11-19-2013, 11:05 AM
Kubiak saw his last glimmer of hope in saving his career and his boy Shaub in the Oakland game. He quickly thought..."if Matt can win this game for me; we might save ourselves". Well that didn't happen. Now he is forced to go back with Keenum. Explaining that he is comfortable with Keenum.

I just hope this doesn't affect Keenum's confidence. Kubiak pretty much just killed it by pulling Keenum but later crawfishing saying he is comfortable with him. Like he is trying to protect Keenum's confidence by not letting him fail. Just ridiculous.

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 11:10 AM
i was one of the loudest voices PRO YAYES so dont go spouting off at the mouth. but even i agree after watching case play, he brings more than schaub and yates EVER did. if you cant see that then youre an idiot, nothing more to say



Again he brings more based on what? stats? I thought stats were for losers? That's what we always heard with Schaub. You guys see a few deep passes & a couple of qb scrambles and think that all's well. I seem to recall Yates doing alot of the same stuff in his 1st couple of starts...now only 8 games later & after an abyssmal performance in a blowout game where he got in for a 1/2... cold turkey with no 1st team reps, that's what we'll judge TJ on...never mind what he did as a true rookie.

Again, i'm not saying he's the answer as opposed to Case...but at least try to look at things objectively.

Someone pulled up Yates stats vs. Keenum's...Yeah keenum looks great in comparison to Yates...until you factor in keenum's fumbles....

amazing80
11-19-2013, 11:14 AM
Again he brings more based on what? stats? I thought stats were for losers? That's what we always heard with Schaub. You guys see a few deep passes & a couple of qb scrambles and think that all's well. I seem to recall Yates doing alot of the same stuff in his 1st couple of starts...now only 8 games later & after an abyssmal performance in a blowout game where he got in for a 1/2... cold turkey with no 1st team reps, that's what we'll judge TJ on.

Again, i'm not saying he's the answer as opposed to Case...but at least try to look at things objectively.

Someone pulled up Yates stats vs. Keenum's...Yeah keenum looks great in comparison to Yates...until you factor in keenum's fumbles....

again if your eyes dont tell you hes better than theres nothing to discuss. his accuracy, velocity, scrambling, ability to keep plays alive and for the most part to protect the ball. our oline was much better the year yates took over, case has played well despite the fact our rt is a turnstile and tate doesnt know how to hold a block for more than a second....case deserves to keep playing and nothing you said proves otherwise

Exascor
11-19-2013, 11:15 AM
Someone pulled up Yates stats vs. Keenum's...Yeah keenum looks great in comparison to Yates...until you factor in keenum's fumbles....Really? Do you make stuff up?

TJ Yates - Fumbles 8 Lost 4
Case Keenum - Fumbles 4 Lost 2

Marcus
11-19-2013, 11:20 AM
Case needs to play every possible minute of the next 6 games. Fans and critics alike should agree on that completely.

That needed to be said, and etched in bronze. I find it preposterous how anyone can make a judgement about a rookie after just 4 games.

And blame all of this on coaching if you want, but the OL, the RBs, and with AJ being the exception, the WRs are all playing like they've never seen a blitz before either. It's a team effort, and lately it seems like there's a team effort in place to make Case fail.

The next 6 games will be interesting to see much the team itself wants Case Keenum to succeed.

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 11:21 AM
Give Case a legitimate chance is all I'm saying. Don't pull him in the third quarter of a close game like Kubiak did. Apparently he didn't get the memo that the world has stuck a fork in his team and his job. It's evaluation time and you don't evaluate a young QB or teach him how to deal with pressure by sitting him down and giving him a Capri Sun juice bag while you put someone else in to do the job. I heard his explanation and I buy that he's rationalized it that way.

Show me the QB who learned how to handle being blitzed into ineffectiveness in 4 games. I want to know who that guy is. We've seen the good things Case can do and we (along with all the DC's in the league) have seen the things he doesn't do well. What we need to know is whether or not he gets better with some experience.

You don't get experience from the bench.

Additionally if you're not a Case fan and you want to see the UH alums shut up (or make way for the A&M alums if you want to be honest) then you should be adamant that Case be left out there. You don't think he's the answer. You think his ceiling is Rex Grossman-like. Fine. It's a valid opinion unless and until he can manage to prove otherwise. If I felt that way I'd want everyone who won't shut up about Case to see it happen so that when draft comes around they'll shut up about their hero and accept the new QB that gets drafted.

Case needs to play every possible minute of the next 6 games. Fans and critics alike should agree on that completely.

As usual hervy we see eye to eye.....Kubiak should've just rode it out with him..but again, eval time for who? the team? Like i said, Kubiak undoubtedly knows he won't be here next year. So what the hell would he care about evaluating guys for next year for? Fans are in 1 mode (eval time for next year), he and the coaching staff are in another (win by any means necessary).

amazing80
11-19-2013, 11:35 AM
As usual hervy we see eye to eye.....Kubiak should've just rode it out with him..but again, eval time for who? the team? Like i said, Kubiak undoubtedly knows he won't be here next year. So what the hell would he care about evaluating guys for next year for? Fans are in 1 mode (eval time for next year), he and the coaching staff are in another (win by any means necessary).

and thus we come full circle, gary shouldve been fired yesterday because he doesnt have our FUTURE at the forefront of his decisions.....

steelbtexan
11-19-2013, 11:38 AM
Sorry steel. That has to be one of the dumbest things I've seen posted in a while. The NFL has a salary cap. High draft picks fit under the cap easily. For teams that don't stay up against the cap they bring excitement/hope which means more money.

Yep and up until 2-3 yrs ago there was no rookie wage scale. That's why teams picking at the top were at a great disadvantage with the salary cap. If your top 5 pick busted you were screwed. That's why the owners pushed so had for the rookie wage scale.

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 12:05 PM
Really? Do you make stuff up?TJ Yates - Fumbles 8 Lost 4
Case Keenum - Fumbles 4 Lost 2

You mean like you did? in yates' regular season starts in 2011 he only threw 3 picks not 8. you systematically added in his 2 from the blowout rams loss in which he did not start....he came in cold turkey with no 1st team reps. and you also added the 3 he threw.......... in a playoff game .....against a SB contender no less...a level of intensity that most young qbs would fold under let alone a guy making his 1st playoff start ever as a rookie.

Which again bring me back to yates being a true rookie...green as they come...unlike Keenum who at least got to sit and learn the system & get somewhat of an idea of the speed of the NFL his rookie year.

All i'm saying is, there's next to no reason why anyone should be more excited & optimistic for Keenum than they were for Yates. They look about the same at this juncture. Yates came out & looked solid against Jax & ATL, looked damn good against Cincy & then stunk it up his next 2 starts against Carolina & Indy....Pretty much the same deal with Keenum thus far.

CloakNNNdagger
11-19-2013, 12:09 PM
Give Case a legitimate chance is all I'm saying. Don't pull him in the third quarter of a close game like Kubiak did. Apparently he didn't get the memo that the world has stuck a fork in his team and his job. It's evaluation time and you don't evaluate a young QB or teach him how to deal with pressure by sitting him down and giving him a Capri Sun juice bag while you put someone else in to do the job. I heard his explanation and I buy that he's rationalized it that way.

Show me the QB who learned how to handle being blitzed into ineffectiveness in 4 games. I want to know who that guy is. We've seen the good things Case can do and we (along with all the DC's in the league) have seen the things he doesn't do well. What we need to know is whether or not he gets better with some experience.

You don't get experience from the bench.

Additionally if you're not a Case fan and you want to see the UH alums shut up (or make way for the A&M alums if you want to be honest) then you should be adamant that Case be left out there. You don't think he's the answer. You think his ceiling is Rex Grossman-like. Fine. It's a valid opinion unless and until he can manage to prove otherwise. If I felt that way I'd want everyone who won't shut up about Case to see it happen so that when draft comes around they'll shut up about their hero and accept the new QB that gets drafted.

Case needs to play every possible minute of the next 6 games. Fans and critics alike should agree on that completely.


Great post! Now we need to, but most importantly, Case needs to hear Kubiak officially say "Case is our starter for the rest of the season........period!" Case does not at this stage of his development need to feel that he has a hammer looming over his head, just waiting to fall at any moment. As any promising young QB, his confidence as well as his skills must be built up and re-inforced.

Hervoyel
11-19-2013, 12:17 PM
and thus we come full circle, gary shouldve been fired yesterday because he doesnt have our FUTURE at the forefront of his decisions.....

Well, that's kind of the weird thing to me and the biggest indictment of Kubiak as HC in recent memory. He's trying to win games to save his job. We all get that. I think McNair gets that. I don't think wins are what saves Gary Kubiak if he is (or was prior to Sunday) able to save his ass. I think that sticking to Schaub, even if it provides us with a couple of extra ugly dysfunctional wins this year is a huge mistake. In this sense I think that McNair and the ticket buying public are on the same page. No one wants to see anymore safe and mostly ineffectual "Schaub-ball" with the Texans beating up on the weak sisters and crawling to a .500 record (which I know is no longer even possible). This isn't Gary's first couple of years where a late season rally to 8-8 will look like progress. That tack won't cut it in 2013.

Gary says he hasn't lost the locker room and I again accept that he sees it that way. What he doesn't seem to understand is that having a locker room full of guys who say the right things (because they're been trained to do so) and having a locker room full of guys who all like you isn't the same thing as having a locker room full of guys who are all with you. They can all be your friends and like you and one another while knowing that what you're doing isn't working. Just because a guy will buy you dinner and talk good about you on his radio show doesn't mean he's got your back professionally.

Gary would have gotten more mileage out of taking Keenum's playmaking ability (which neither Schaub nor Yates can really match) and just throwing out the rule book and setting that guy up to score points. I felt like at times against KC and against Indianapolis in the first half that was happening. I thought that against Arizona it looked like we tried to fit him more into the system we run (though I thought that had more to do with a lack of willingness on Dennison's part to be creative on his own apart from what Gary would have done) and I felt like against Oakland we literally tried to shove him into a "Matt Schaub" shaped hole (ok, bad round peg-square hole attempt).

Our offense has looked best under Keenum when it looked nothing like what Matt was doing but that requires Gary to be outside of his comfort zone and he just doesn't seem willing to do that.

Gary had a chance I thought to come back if he'd shown growth. If the team had gone through this brutal season and transformed in the process to a different kind of offense that was exciting and unpredictable. Wins would have been nice but I don't even think that wins would have been necessary. I think if he'd made the offense change to fit Case and feature Case then he could have fallen back on "Well, we lost so many guys but the silver lining is that we found a way to do things differently in the process" and people would have accepted it.

Remember how bad Richard Smith's defense was up until that one year when everyone knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was gone as soon as the season was over. Then out of nowhere with no other options he turned that ****ty 4-3 of his into a fierce, attacking, swarming monster for like 5 games. Anyone else remember that? Everyone thought they'd turned the corner and he'd finally worked it out but not really. He was just desperate and saving his job and he didn't learn anything from that. He went right back into the never ending Prevent-turtle defense the next year and he was eventually fired.

Gary needed to come out taking chances and he can't make himself do it or stick to it for very long because it's outside of his being to do that. That's why he'll be gone.

CloakNNNdagger
11-19-2013, 12:33 PM
Don't know if this has been posted from NFL.com"

Sticking with Keenum is the sensible move. Then again, it made no sense to bench Keenum during Sunday's 28-23 loss to the Oakland Raiders -- a move that didn't work out.

"I've got total confidence in him," Kubiak said.

His actions Sunday told a different story. Kubiak spoke of Keenum's struggles to change protections and deal with Oakland's blitzes, but isn't experience the best teacher?

"I didn't want to put a young guy in a bad situation," Kubiak said. "I'd do it again. I tried to help out the quarterback and offensive line."

We liked it the first time Kubiak named Keenum the Texans' starter. While Keenum hasn't been perfect, he's not the reason why the Texans keep losing. He's been an upgrade from Schaub.

Facing the toughest situation of his career, Kubiak boldly rolled with Keenum in an effort to save his job. Sunday's loss to Oakland and return to Schaub came out of pure desperation. Kubiak wanted to see if Schaub had anything left from his peak Pro Bowl form. It didn't work.link (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000284180/article/houston-texans-sticking-with-case-keenum)

That statement just eats me up.


http://media.santabanta.com/images/picsms/2013/sms-3535.jpg

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 12:40 PM
Well, that's kind of the weird thing to me and the biggest indictment of Kubiak as HC in recent memory. He's trying to win games to save his job. We all get that. I think McNair gets that. I don't think wins are what saves Gary Kubiak if he is (or was prior to Sunday) able to save his ass. I think that sticking to Schaub, even if it provides us with a couple of extra ugly dysfunctional wins this year is a huge mistake. In this sense I think that McNair and the ticket buying public are on the same page. No one wants to see anymore safe and mostly ineffectual "Schaub-ball" with the Texans beating up on the weak sisters and crawling to a .500 record (which I know is no longer even possible). This isn't Gary's first couple of years where a late season rally to 8-8 will look like progress. That tack won't cut it in 2013.

Gary says he hasn't lost the locker room and I again accept that he sees it that way. What he doesn't seem to understand is that having a locker room full of guys who say the right things (because they're been trained to do so) and having a locker room full of guys who all like you isn't the same thing as having a locker room full of guys who are all with you. They can all be your friends and like you and one another while knowing that what you're doing isn't working. Just because a guy will buy you dinner and talk good about you on his radio show doesn't mean he's got your back professionally.

Gary would have gotten more mileage out of taking Keenum's playmaking ability (which neither Schaub nor Yates can really match) and just throwing out the rule book and setting that guy up to score points. I felt like at times against KC and against Indianapolis in the first half that was happening. I thought that against Arizona it looked like we tried to fit him more into the system we run (though I thought that had more to do with a lack of willingness on Dennison's part to be creative on his own apart from what Gary would have done) and I felt like against Oakland we literally tried to shove him into a "Matt Schaub" shaped hole (ok, bad round peg-square hole attempt).

Our offense has looked best under Keenum when it looked nothing like what Matt was doing but that requires Gary to be outside of his comfort zone and he just doesn't seem willing to do that.

Gary had a chance I thought to come back if he'd shown growth. If the team had gone through this brutal season and transformed in the process to a different kind of offense that was exciting and unpredictable. Wins would have been nice but I don't even think that wins would have been necessary. I think if he'd made the offense change to fit Case and feature Case then he could have fallen back on "Well, we lost so many guys but the silver lining is that we found a way to do things differently in the process" and people would have accepted it.

Remember how bad Richard Smith's defense was up until that one year when everyone knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was gone as soon as the season was over. Then out of nowhere with no other options he turned that ****ty 4-3 of his into a fierce, attacking, swarming monster for like 5 games. Anyone else remember that? Everyone thought they'd turned the corner and he'd finally worked it out but not really. He was just desperate and saving his job and he didn't learn anything from that. He went right back into the never ending Prevent-turtle defense the next year and he was eventually fired.

Gary needed to come out taking chances and he can't make himself do it or stick to it for very long because it's outside of his being to do that. That's why he'll be gone.

See though, the bolded is where i just disagree. It looks different b/c of how we've been scoring as of late......but different doesn't translate to better.

Everyone, including myself, thought that we just needed to go deep more...to stop teams from sitting on the short stuff. Well, we've been doing that with Keenum & we still can't score a damn TD in the 2nd half of games. What's more is that it appears we've made a bad situation worse. The o-line is playing as bad as they've ever played since we've tried to emulate air-coryell.

The other thing is, early in the season the offense had 2 hellified explosive halfs against SD and Tenn where we looked just about unstoppable.....and that was with Schaub. Sure, we weren't going deep but we were moving the ball pretty much at will. & just like now, we had the same set of issues. We didn't run the ball well, our o-line had trouble in pass pro, our ST's was still trash and our defense wasn't exactly doing much either. We've seen that in the past with Schaub and this offense where they just get on a roll. I mean what has happened to this offense over the last 2 years?


My personal opinion is that the offense has just gotten stale & outdated. It's no longer viable to run it as an offense on its own....much like the run & shoot. Parts of it for sure can continue to be utlized, but running it exclusively...it's dead. I mean, you're starting to hear grumblings out of Washington from RG3 about how teams are keying in on their predictability.....& they have a premium talent at the qb position. I don't think it's a coincidence that the 2 teams run virtually the same offense.

Hervoyel
11-19-2013, 12:41 PM
That statement just eats me up.




Of course he'd do it again. He can't change his nature and all the evidence seems to point to a guy who is stuck in a real rut but who can't see it himself. He's a talented signal caller who is so certain that his system is the answer that he's stopped changing and growing. Can't do that in a league where not moving forward is the same thing as falling behind.

Hervoyel
11-19-2013, 12:49 PM
See though, the bolded is where i just disagree. It looks different b/c of how we've been scoring as of late......but different doesn't translate to better.

Everyone, including myself, thought that we just needed to go deep more...to stop teams from sitting on the short stuff. Well, we've been doing that with Keenum & we still can't score a damn TD in the 2nd half of games. What's more is that it appears we've made a bad situation worse. The o-line is playing as bad as they've ever played since we've tried to emulate air-coryell.

The other thing is, early in the season the offense had 2 hellified explosive halfs against SD and Tenn where we looked just about unstoppable.....and that was with Schaub. Sure, we weren't going deep but we were moving the ball pretty much at will. & just like now, we had the same set of issues. We didn't run the ball well, our o-line had trouble in pass pro, our ST's was still trash and our defense wasn't exactly doing much either. We've seen that in the past with Schaub and this offense where they just get on a roll.


I just think the offense has just gotten stale & outdated. I mean, you're starting to hear grumblings out of Washington from RG3 about how teams are keying in on their predictability.....& they have a premium talent at the qb position. I don't think it's a coincidence that the 2 teams saying this run virtually the same offense.



No, you don't disagree. I just didn't state clearly enough what I meant. We're exactly on the same page with this. The offense is stale and predicatable and I didn't mean to completely equate Case's mere presence with being the reason things improved. I meant that even the slight adjustments in formation and play selection that Kubiak made in KC and in the first half against Indy was enough to shake things loose a little more. I think we'd have had productive halves with Schaub too (obviously less dramatic deep stuff) with those changes.

Case made Gary get out of his comfort zone a little bit but at the same time Gary wants back in there as soon as he can. He doesn't see that the changes were what made things better, not just the QB change.

Case is more dynamic than Matt. Plugged into Gary's offense the way Matt has been Case is just a less experienced Matt who gets eaten alive and sometimes breaks loose and can create on the fly. Matt can barely do that. That's Case's gift. The bigger problem is the offense which I think needs to go. Spending 6 more games teaching Case to be as much like Matt as possible is going in reverse. Gary needs to change what he's doing. If he did that even Schaub's experience would be put to better use.

Honoring Earl 34
11-19-2013, 12:50 PM
Well, that's kind of the weird thing to me and the biggest indictment of Kubiak as HC in recent memory. He's trying to win games to save his job. We all get that. I think McNair gets that. I don't think wins are what saves Gary Kubiak if he is (or was prior to Sunday) able to save his ass. I think that sticking to Schaub, even if it provides us with a couple of extra ugly dysfunctional wins this year is a huge mistake. In this sense I think that McNair and the ticket buying public are on the same page. No one wants to see anymore safe and mostly ineffectual "Schaub-ball" with the Texans beating up on the weak sisters and crawling to a .500 record (which I know is no longer even possible). This isn't Gary's first couple of years where a late season rally to 8-8 will look like progress. That tack won't cut it in 2013.

Gary says he hasn't lost the locker room and I again accept that he sees it that way. What he doesn't seem to understand is that having a locker room full of guys who say the right things (because they're been trained to do so) and having a locker room full of guys who all like you isn't the same thing as having a locker room full of guys who are all with you. They can all be your friends and like you and one another while knowing that what you're doing isn't working. Just because a guy will buy you dinner and talk good about you on his radio show doesn't mean he's got your back professionally.

Gary would have gotten more mileage out of taking Keenum's playmaking ability (which neither Schaub nor Yates can really match) and just throwing out the rule book and setting that guy up to score points. I felt like at times against KC and against Indianapolis in the first half that was happening. I thought that against Arizona it looked like we tried to fit him more into the system we run (though I thought that had more to do with a lack of willingness on Dennison's part to be creative on his own apart from what Gary would have done) and I felt like against Oakland we literally tried to shove him into a "Matt Schaub" shaped hole (ok, bad round peg-square hole attempt).

Our offense has looked best under Keenum when it looked nothing like what Matt was doing but that requires Gary to be outside of his comfort zone and he just doesn't seem willing to do that.

Gary had a chance I thought to come back if he'd shown growth. If the team had gone through this brutal season and transformed in the process to a different kind of offense that was exciting and unpredictable. Wins would have been nice but I don't even think that wins would have been necessary. I think if he'd made the offense change to fit Case and feature Case then he could have fallen back on "Well, we lost so many guys but the silver lining is that we found a way to do things differently in the process" and people would have accepted it.

Remember how bad Richard Smith's defense was up until that one year when everyone knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was gone as soon as the season was over. Then out of nowhere with no other options he turned that ****ty 4-3 of his into a fierce, attacking, swarming monster for like 5 games. Anyone else remember that? Everyone thought they'd turned the corner and he'd finally worked it out but not really. He was just desperate and saving his job and he didn't learn anything from that. He went right back into the never ending Prevent-turtle defense the next year and he was eventually fired.
Gary needed to come out taking chances and he can't make himself do it or stick to it for very long because it's outside of his being to do that. That's why he'll be gone.

The whole defensive coordinator debacle was enough to fire Gary IMO . Why do you keep a coach that doesn't carry enough clout to get a top notch DC ? You do have to give him credit for the ability to keep his team focused at 5-7 and rally to finish the season . :hurrah:

Exascor
11-19-2013, 12:53 PM
You mean like you did? in yates' regular season starts in 2011 he only threw 3 picks not 8. you systematically added in his 2 from the blowout rams loss in which he did not start....he came in cold turkey with no 1st team reps. and you also added the 3 he threw.......... in a playoff game .....against a SB contender no less...a level of intensity that most young qbs would fold under let alone a guy making his 1st playoff start ever as a rookie.

Which again bring me back to yates being a true rookie...green as they come...unlike Keenum who at least got to sit and learn the system & get somewhat of an idea of the speed of the NFL his rookie year.

All i'm saying is, there's next to no reason why anyone should be more excited & optimistic for Keenum than they were for Yates. They look about the same at this juncture. Yates came out & looked solid against Jax & ATL, looked damn good against Cincy & then stunk it up his next 2 starts against Carolina & Indy....Pretty much the same deal with Keenum thus far.Umm...you can choose to ignore the truth but it doesn't change the facts. I didn't make anything up. I didn't throw out bogus statements. Those are Yates' career REGULAR season stats. I never said 8 INTs. You misquoted me. I said 6. He was 3-3 in 2011, 0-1 in 2012 and 0-2 in 2013. Does that show progress? You give Yates an "excuse" for not being prepared to come in and he threw 2 picks against the Rams. You give Yates an excuse for throwing 3 INTs (should have been more like 5-6) in a playoff game. But...you don't give Keenum the credit for only having 3 days worth of 1st team reps all year before his first start in the NFL. Oh yeah - he threw no picks that day either. Against a playoff team. On the road. In a playoff-type atmosphere.

Bottom line is Yates had his chance. Yates didn't look "solid" ever. He looked OK. He showed nothing special. Nothing Yates does makes you say if he just improved in one or two areas he'll be great. You can say if Keenum cleans up the blitz issues and understands when it's OK to throw the ball away - he could be great.

If Keenum can't get his problem areas corrected then draft a QB. If he can then someone is going to have a tough decision to make.

disaacks3
11-19-2013, 01:01 PM
“You guys don’t understand and I’m trying to explain to you—let me try one more time,” Kubiak said. “I’m fine with Case in a two-minute situation. What I was doing, calling the game and some of the decisions, I made to go with to try and help the quarterback out and the offensive line out. It was fixing to be very difficult. It was fixing to be very fast for a young guy who has never been through it. That’s why I did what I did.” Funny, but I saw better pocket protection and shorter routes with Schaub as well. For God sakes, don't tell me the kid isn't capable of running a faster-paced offense than you've ever put on a field. Talk to Sumlin about what pace he can operate at. For extended periods. Outside of a two-minute drill.


Actually, I think I was really thinking of (Keenum) to be honest with you,” Kubiak said. “I’ve been in this league a long time and dealt with a lot of quarterbacks. I’m trying to develop one right now. Right or wrong, I made that decision because of the situation I thought I was fixing to put a young player in from my standpoint of what I was doing coaching wise. I don’t have time to explain that to y’all. That’s why I do what I did. He knows that. I talked to him about that.” Then you better damn well MAKE sure that player is prepared for that situation before you get into a game situation. You've had a season and a half to get him ready. To paraphrase your own standard commentary: "That's on you!"

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 01:22 PM
Umm...you can choose to ignore the truth but it doesn't change the facts. I didn't make anything up. I didn't throw out bogus statements. Those are Yates' career REGULAR season stats. I never said 8 INTs. You misquoted me. I said 6. He was 3-3 in 2011, 0-1 in 2012 and 0-2 in 2013. Does that show progress? You give Yates an "excuse" for not being prepared to come in and he threw 2 picks against the Rams. You give Yates an excuse for throwing 3 INTs (should have been more like 5-6) in a playoff game. But...you don't give Keenum the credit for only having 3 days worth of 1st team reps all year before his first start in the NFL. Oh yeah - he threw no picks that day either. Against a playoff team. On the road. In a playoff-type atmosphere.

Bottom line is Yates had his chance. Yates didn't look "solid" ever. He looked OK. He showed nothing special. Nothing Yates does makes you say if he just improved in one or two areas he'll be great. You can say if Keenum cleans up the blitz issues and understands when it's OK to throw the ball away - he could be great.


If Keenum can't get his problem areas corrected then draft a QB. If he can then someone is going to have a tough decision to make.



Only in your mind does having 3 days of 1st team reps = being thrown in during garbage time in 2 separate blowout games with no 1st team reps all year. The defense knows you have to pass to get back in the game & the qb has to take more chances...If you think that doesn't matter in what TJ faced then you're even more deluded than i thought.

Lol at you thinking that a regular season game being the equivalent to an playoff atmosphere.

The truth? I'll tell you what the truth is. The truth is your blind Keenum love is going to allow you to view Case in the most positive light possible....even when it aint so glowing.

There's just no way you can sit up here and say yates wasn't solid "ever" in his 1st couple of starts. WE WON 3 OF HIS CAREER TOTAL STARTS largely b/c he did well...one of those was directly b/c of him and his poise.

Marcus
11-19-2013, 01:23 PM
I don't have a clue why some of you don't even consider the possibility that the reason why Kubiak took him out, was simply to protect Keenum from getting killed. They were blitzing him every down, and RBs weren't picking it up and WRs were not adjusting their routes. He said as much in his post-game statements.

And if he said, "I'd do it it again, given those circumstances", why is that such a a hard concept to grasp?

texanhead08
11-19-2013, 01:25 PM
I don't have a clue why some of you don't even consider the possibility that the reason why Kubiak took him out, was simply to protect Keenum from getting killed. They were blitzing him every down, and RBs weren't picking it up and WRs were not adjusting their routes. He said as much in his post-game statements.

And if he said, "I'd do it it again, given those circumstances", why is that such a a hard concept to grasp?


Then its on Kubiak for not preparing Case and the offense to handle these all out blitzes we are facing each game.

CloakNNNdagger
11-19-2013, 01:28 PM
Kubiak.............kick the OL's and RBs' butts and open it up!

The Jags allow the second-most points in the NFL (31.8) and just allowed Carson Palmer to throw for 419 yards and two scores.

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 01:32 PM
Of course he'd do it again. He can't change his nature and all the evidence seems to point to a guy who is stuck in a real rut but who can't see it himself. He's a talented signal caller who is so certain that his system is the answer that he's stopped changing and growing. Can't do that in a league where not moving forward is the same thing as falling behind.

As a Kubiak fan, I am unable to dispute that argument... Other than engaging in wishful thinking. That that is the most concise critique I have seen. I also think you can extend that same statement to wade and his defense.

Rey
11-19-2013, 01:33 PM
Funny, but I saw better pocket protection and shorter routes with Schaub as well. For God sakes, don't tell me the kid isn't capable of running a faster-paced offense than you've ever put on a field. Talk to Sumlin about what pace he can operate at. For extended periods. Outside of a two-minute drill.


Then you better damn well MAKE sure that player is prepared for that situation before you get into a game situation. You've had a season and a half to get him ready. To paraphrase your own standard commentary: "That's on you!"

That's what I'm saying.

Kubiaks comments don't even make sense anymore.

Kubiak set Schaub up to be the hero in front of the home town crowd and it blew up in his face. You can hear the uncertainty and straw grasping in his voice...you can tell he's lost by how he answers questions.

The whole, I pulled him because I was protecting him and I was about to unleash some **** that was above his level is bogus.

To me it sounds like kubiak is half assing his coaching. Case is so bad that all a team has to do is blitz him every play and the offense does nothing? Something is not right there. Either case really sucks bad or someone is not preparing the offense.

But there is no way a team should not be able to just blitz, blitz, blitz and the offense can't do anything about it.

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 01:35 PM
Then its on Kubiak for not preparing Case and the offense to handle these all out blitzes we are facing each game.

It isn't magic. QBs develop over years, not days. Keenum's development and performance is the strongest argument Kubiak has for not being fired this year.

Hervoyel
11-19-2013, 01:35 PM
I don't have a clue why some of you don't even consider the possibility that the reason why Kubiak took him out, was simply to protect Keenum from getting killed. They were blitzing him every down, and RBs weren't picking it up and WRs were not adjusting their routes. He said as much in his post-game statements.

And if he said, "I'd do it it again, given those circumstances", why is that such a a hard concept to grasp?

I get that. I don't necessarily just take him at his word but I understand that's his explanation. What I get from that is Gary saying "It's not just Case. The entire team I've spent years preparing really sucks a lot. RB's who were with us in camp and who have been practicing with us for weeks can't pick up rushers and WR's who have been here in some cases for years can't adjust their routes. Basically nobody can be bothered to do their job or try and make things better for the new starting QB so I helped him out by benching him"


I just hate this team sometimes. Not for long and not really but the circles that you find yourself going in when trying to work out what they're doing are really something else. I guess being a Browns fan would be worse (obviously it would) but every once in a while I feel like I get what it must be like to be them.

CloakNNNdagger
11-19-2013, 01:37 PM
I don't have a clue why some of you don't even consider the possibility that the reason why Kubiak took him out, was simply to protect Keenum from getting killed. They were blitzing him every down, and RBs weren't picking it up and WRs were not adjusting their routes. He said as much in his post-game statements.

And if he said, "I'd do it it again, given those circumstances", why is that such a a hard concept to grasp?

I posted this out right after the end of the game (as well as the total ineptitude of the OL to pass protect).

I think I would have felt much better about Kubiak's statement if he would have added that " We will fix these problems for Case to have a viable chance to show his skills the rest of the season."

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 01:38 PM
Funny, but I saw better pocket protection and shorter routes with Schaub as well. For God sakes, don't tell me the kid isn't capable of running a faster-paced offense than you've ever put on a field. Talk to Sumlin about what pace he can operate at. For extended periods. Outside of a two-minute drill.


Then you better damn well MAKE sure that player is prepared for that situation before you get into a game situation. You've had a season and a half to get him ready. To paraphrase your own standard commentary: "That's on you!"

Schaub is experienced. He recognizes blitzes easier and knows the hot routes, etc. and has played in this system for7 years. Pretty simple really.

CloakNNNdagger
11-19-2013, 01:44 PM
Schaub is experienced. He recognizes blitzes easier and knows the hot routes, etc. and has played in this system for7 years. Pretty simple really.

Let's not make Schaub a model for blitz response. For the most part, the D did not blitz because they were not afraid of Schaub's "finesse" arm. Near the end of the game, when he was blitzed, he remained statuesque and became disfunctional.

eriadoc
11-19-2013, 01:54 PM
Since Keenum is going into his 5th game, we'll do 5 games. Guess the QB first and then guess which posters would have declared him not NFL caliber --

1st game: 13/23, 168 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 1 sack for 9 yds, QB rtg 79.6, 0 fumbles

2nd game: 12/24, 86 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 4 sacks for 17 yds, QB rtg 58.7, 2 fumbles lost

3rd game: 33/54, 364 yds, 2TD, 0INT, 3 sacks for 19 yds, QB rtg 93.4, 2 fumbles, 0 lost

4th game: 16/20, 202 yds, 3TD, 0INT, 0 sacks, QB rtg 148.3, 0 fumbles

5th game: 25/38, 203 yds, 2TD, 4INT, 2 sacks for 20 yds, QB rtg 57.1, 1 fumble, 0 lost




For anyone who misses the obvious point, 5 games in is still evaluation time. It takes the best QBs a while to figure it out.

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 01:59 PM
Let's not make Schaub a model for blitz response. For the most part, the D did not blitz because they were not afraid of Schaub's "finesse" arm. Near the end of the game, when he was blitzed, he remained statuesque and became disfunctional.

I disagree. He became dysfunctional in the red zone... and not because of the blitz, but because they dropped too many bodies into a confined space and his finesse arm couldn't get the ball into the tight space... That's why he is so good in the middle of the field but not the red zone. He is a very quick decision-maker and has excellent recognition skills. Unfortunately, his lack of athleticism, failing arm strength, and elongated stride create other problems for him.

Clearly, though, from an objective view, the offense improved after Schaub replaced Keenum... many fans miss that because they felt a sense of doom when he entered the game and they still lost... and lost in a predictable way. It's the baggage of years of disappointment. What if Kubiak had re-benched Schaub during the last redzone trip?.. that would've have been truly ballsy and also likely won the game, because Keenum can play in the red zone with his athleticism- ability to bootleg, quicker release and better arm.

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 02:02 PM
Since Keenum is going into his 5th game, we'll do 5 games. Guess the QB first and then guess which posters would have declared him not NFL caliber --

1st game: 13/23, 168 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 1 sack for 9 yds, QB rtg 79.6, 0 fumbles

2nd game: 12/24, 86 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 4 sacks for 17 yds, QB rtg 58.7, 2 fumbles lost

3rd game: 33/54, 364 yds, 2TD, 0INT, 3 sacks for 19 yds, QB rtg 93.4, 2 fumbles, 0 lost

4th game: 16/20, 202 yds, 3TD, 0INT, 0 sacks, QB rtg 148.3, 0 fumbles

5th game: 25/38, 203 yds, 2TD, 4INT, 2 sacks for 20 yds, QB rtg 57.1, 1 fumble, 0 lost




For anyone who misses the obvious point, 5 games in is still evaluation time. It takes the best QBs a while to figure it out.

I'm not seeing anyone with negative posts about Keenum. The closest thing I have seen are people wanting to draft another QB for competition with him. My impression is that everyone on the board is very encouraged and excited about his play. I certainly am!

tedr
11-19-2013, 02:06 PM
Since Keenum is going into his 5th game, we'll do 5 games. Guess the QB first and then guess which posters would have declared him not NFL caliber --

1st game: 13/23, 168 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 1 sack for 9 yds, QB rtg 79.6, 0 fumbles

2nd game: 12/24, 86 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 4 sacks for 17 yds, QB rtg 58.7, 2 fumbles lost

3rd game: 33/54, 364 yds, 2TD, 0INT, 3 sacks for 19 yds, QB rtg 93.4, 2 fumbles, 0 lost

4th game: 16/20, 202 yds, 3TD, 0INT, 0 sacks, QB rtg 148.3, 0 fumbles

5th game: 25/38, 203 yds, 2TD, 4INT, 2 sacks for 20 yds, QB rtg 57.1, 1 fumble, 0 lost




For anyone who misses the obvious point, 5 games in is still evaluation time. It takes the best QBs a while to figure it out.

OK, I'll play. Who? Manning?

eriadoc
11-19-2013, 02:11 PM
I'm not seeing anyone with negative posts about Keenum.

There are about a half dozen posters who are consistently negative about Keenum and very vocal about it.

The closest thing I have seen are people wanting to draft another QB for competition with him.

I'm a UH guy and a Keenum fan and I want this. I just don't believe any of the guys currently projected to go in the first round are anything close to a sure bet even compared to past years drafts. I view them as a bit of a project, so I don't want to spend a first round pick on a project. And the OL being as bad as it is ... yikes.

Keenum does some things really well. He doesn't do other things. He's developing. We'll see how fast he develops and to what point. The people that have already made up their minds are silly, to be nice about it.

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 02:13 PM
Since Keenum is going into his 5th game, we'll do 5 games. Guess the QB first and then guess which posters would have declared him not NFL caliber --

1st game: 13/23, 168 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 1 sack for 9 yds, QB rtg 79.6, 0 fumbles

2nd game: 12/24, 86 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 4 sacks for 17 yds, QB rtg 58.7, 2 fumbles lost

3rd game: 33/54, 364 yds, 2TD, 0INT, 3 sacks for 19 yds, QB rtg 93.4, 2 fumbles, 0 lost

4th game: 16/20, 202 yds, 3TD, 0INT, 0 sacks, QB rtg 148.3, 0 fumbles

5th game: 25/38, 203 yds, 2TD, 4INT, 2 sacks for 20 yds, QB rtg 57.1, 1 fumble, 0 lost




For anyone who misses the obvious point, 5 games in is still evaluation time. It takes the best QBs a while to figure it out.

Of course, someone could also post the stats of promising QB careers of someone like:

Scott Mitchell
Robb Johnson,
Matt Flynn,
Derek Anderson,
Shane Matthews, etc...

Evaluating a QB is very complex. The great thing about the Texans' situation with Keenum, is that he is dirt cheap for this year and the next two years after that, which means we can easily afford to bring in more QB talent to compete with him or simply to hedge our bets... It is the one bright spot from this disaster of a season... well, that and high draft picks.

eriadoc
11-19-2013, 02:14 PM
OK, I'll play. Who? Manning?

Nope. Manning didn't do anywhere near as well as what I posted. Manning's best rating in his first 6 games was 66.8. He only threw 1 INT that game, so it really helped out his rating. :D

eriadoc
11-19-2013, 02:15 PM
Of course, someone could also post the stats of promising QB careers of someone like:

Scott Mitchell
Robb Johnson,
Matt Flynn,
Derek Anderson,
Shane Matthews, etc...

Evaluating a QB is very complex. The great thing about the Texans' situation with Keenum, is that he is dirt cheap for this year and the next two years after that, which means we can easily afford to bring in more QB talent to compete with him or simply to hedge our bets... It is the one bright spot from this disaster of a season... well, that and high draft picks.

So you agree with my point then. Making up your mind after 4 games is ridiculous.

Double Barrel
11-19-2013, 02:15 PM
Funny, but I saw better pocket protection and shorter routes with Schaub as well. For God sakes, don't tell me the kid isn't capable of running a faster-paced offense than you've ever put on a field. Talk to Sumlin about what pace he can operate at. For extended periods. Outside of a two-minute drill.


I respect Case's college career, but let's be real about it. You simply cannot compare defenses in Conference USA to what he's seeing in the NFL.

Case has a lot of raw talent. No telling where the ceiling is on his potential. In that regard, fans are excited about him.

That being said, he has a LOT to learn to be a consistent NFL QB. He's not like Andrew Luck who entered the NFL much better prepared. Luck played for a coach that was a former pro QB in a pro style system against much better defenses. So he hit he ground running.

Case, on the other hand, played in a spread offense in a very weak conference. I'm not even sure if the next 6 games is truly enough to evaluate under the circumstances, but it is a start that I believe he (and this franchise) deserves. Especially considering the high draft pick and QB-friendly draft in 2014.

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 02:17 PM
I'm not seeing anyone with negative posts about Keenum. The closest thing I have seen are people wanting to draft another QB for competition with him. My impression is that everyone on the board is very encouraged and excited about his play. I certainly am!

i'm not excited....just cautiously optimistic. The last thing i want this franchise to do is just give the most important job on the team away instead of letting a guy earn it with legit comp...

My question to you guys is how much time do ya'll need for eval time? Most nfl guys say about 16 games..i only agree with that when talking about qb's who run alot.

But say it is 16 games. that means Keenum will need about 6 more games going into next year. That's a large chunk of the season...Would you be comfortable passing on a potential franchise guy this year & going into next season still evaluating your qb? As we saw this year, 6 games can make or break your season.

Hervoyel
11-19-2013, 02:25 PM
i'm not excited....just cautiously optimistic. The last thing i want this franchise to do is just give the most important job on the team away instead of letting a guy earn it with legit comp...

My question to you guys is how much time do ya'll need for eval time? Most nfl guys say about 16 games..i only agree with that when talking about qb's who run alot.

But say it is 16 games. that means Keenum will need about 6 more games going into next year. That's a large chunk of the season...Would you be comfortable passing on a potential franchise guy this year & going into next season still evaluating your qb?

I'd say that if Keenum plays six more games, and shows improvement in those six games then we go to the offseason and the Texans either do or don't draft a QB.

So mini-camps happen and Case and "Somebody" are splitting reps. Case enters camp the incumbent starter and the competition is on. At that point you've given Case Keenum a two year head start, two preseasons, and about 10 games of live NFL football.

If a rookie QB can come in and push him out of the way on merit alone and not because he's a 1st round draft pick then so be it. If they just hand the spot to a young guy who doesn't earn it, well this the Texans after all. It could happen.

But if Case gets all that preparation and still can't hold off a first-round rookie then he's probably not the guy anyway. If he does and they give the position to someone else anyway then he should seek a trade. there are too many QB poor teams in this league for him to be sitting on the bench behind a guy with a good draft pedigree who he otherwise just beat out of the job.

HOU-TEX
11-19-2013, 02:28 PM
Just think if we had won. In Kubiak's mind it would justify rolling Schaub back out there this week.

Personally, I don't care who plays QB the rest of the season. The season's over and imo our future QB is not currently on our roster.

Our defense is in shambles. They're number 1 in yardage, so that should give Wade something to add to his legacy. Our offense blows if we aren't throwing bombs on busted plays.

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 02:30 PM
There are about a half dozen posters who are consistently negative about Keenum and very vocal about it.



I'm a UH guy and a Keenum fan and I want this. I just don't believe any of the guys currently projected to go in the first round are anything close to a sure bet even compared to past years drafts. I view them as a bit of a project, so I don't want to spend a first round pick on a project. And the OL being as bad as it is ... yikes.

Keenum does some things really well. He doesn't do other things. He's developing. We'll see how fast he develops and to what point. The people that have already made up their minds are silly, to be nice about it.

I'm not sure about 1st round grades on QBs in this year's draft... I just agree with the larger point that it is unwise and unnecessary to depend entirely on him and his development... In addition to potential draft picks in '14 or '15, there are also guys available via trade/free agency that, depending on the coaching staff and the system, may be of interest:

Guys like: Freeman, Cassel, Henne, Cutler, Mallett, Ponder, etc...

Now, I'm not endorsing these guys, specifically... However, I assume Schaub is gone after this year and Yates won't be far behind him. Therefore, someone will be coming in... Because of recent successful examples and the new salary cap structure in the draft, bringing in QB competition is much more likely.

SF did it with Alex Smith and Kaepernick.

Seattle did it with Russell Wilson and Matt Flynn.

Washington spent significant resources for RGIII and Cousins (not a true competition but a move that paid dividends)

Philadelphia did it with Vick and Nick Foles

Buffalo did it with Manuel and Kolb

Jets with Sanchez and Geno Smith

Tennessee added Fitzpatrick to Locker

*** the cap burden is much less and the importance of QB continues to grow. Teams recognize these truths and are more aggressive about stockpiling and developing talent at QB and less concerned with illustrating through their roster moves how much confidence they have in one guy.

HTown2ATX
11-19-2013, 02:31 PM
I'm not seeing anyone with negative posts about Keenum.

:thinking:

amazing80
11-19-2013, 02:34 PM
we get it dale, youre a gary apologist and dont give a damn about our future beyond gary.....just stop typing already

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 02:40 PM
I'd say that if Keenum plays six more games, and shows improvement in those six games then we go to the offseason and the Texans either do or don't draft a QB.

So mini-camps happen and Case and "Somebody" are splitting reps. Case enters camp the incumbent starter and the competition is on. At that point you've given Case Keenum a two year head start, two preseasons, and about 10 games of live NFL football.

If a rookie QB can come in and push him out of the way on merit alone and not because he's a 1st round draft pick then so be it. If they just hand the spot to a young guy who doesn't earn it, well this the Texans after all. It could happen.

But if Case gets all that preparation and still can't hold off a first-round rookie then he's probably not the guy anyway. If he does and they give the position to someone else anyway then he should seek a trade. there are too many QB poor teams in this league for him to be sitting on the bench behind a guy with a good draft pedigree who he otherwise just beat out of the job.

I only bring up the scenario b/c Case didn't clearly separate himself from TJ this preseason. And if anything like that were to happen this offseason with a draft pick or veteran that we brought in, we'd basically be back to where we are now the minute Case doesn't play well for a stretch of games. In addition to this, you have to figure whomever the new coach is will be itching to get his draft pick in.

This is the position i foresaw Case being put in...He has to knock it out the park..he can't just slap singles and doubles.

disaacks3
11-19-2013, 02:40 PM
Clearly, though, from an objective view, the offense improved after Schaub replaced Keenum... many fans miss that because they felt a sense of doom when he entered the game and they still lost... and lost in a predictable way. It's the baggage of years of disappointment. What if Kubiak had re-benched Schaub during the last redzone trip?.. that would've have been truly ballsy and also likely won the game, because Keenum can play in the red zone with his athleticism- ability to bootleg, quicker release and better arm. I didn't miss anything other than the play-calling and protection CHANGING. Case didn't have the same options Schaub had, it's as simple as that. It wasn't that he kept missing hot routes again-and-again, the play called didn't have the same routes as Schaub had.

disaacks3
11-19-2013, 02:45 PM
I respect Case's college career, but let's be real about it. You simply cannot compare defenses in Conference USA to what he's seeing in the NFL.

Case has a lot of raw talent. No telling where the ceiling is on his potential. In that regard, fans are excited about him. Kubiak's comment was on operating tempo. Kubiak has never ran an offense with anything approaching that tempo. Sure, I'm aware of the far lesser competition Case faced, but that has nothing to do with the tempo at which it operates. JFF is operating the same offense at the same tempo in the best conference in football. Kubiak either is doing his best to obfuscate what he really means, or he's failed to prepare his QB adequately.

Given that we've generally looked fantastic in the first half and lousy in the 2nd, I'm not blaming it on the QB, no matter what the number is on the jersey.

amazing80
11-19-2013, 02:45 PM
I didn't miss anything other than the play-calling and protection CHANGING. Case didn't have the same options Schaub had, it's as simple as that. It wasn't that he kept missing hot routes again-and-again, the play called didn't have the same routes as Schaub had.

yup, i dont get why so many dont see this

disaacks3
11-19-2013, 02:48 PM
yup, i dont get why so many dont see this

Folks think I'm making it up. Hell, I wondered if I was "projecting" my feelings onto it. The tape didn't lie, the short crossing routes weren't there for Case in the 2nd half. They made a miraculous reappearance when #8 stepped onto the field.

JCTexan
11-19-2013, 02:56 PM
i'm not excited....just cautiously optimistic. The last thing i want this franchise to do is just give the most important job on the team away instead of letting a guy earn it with legit comp...

My question to you guys is how much time do ya'll need for eval time? Most nfl guys say about 16 games..i only agree with that when talking about qb's who run alot.

But say it is 16 games. that means Keenum will need about 6 more games going into next year. That's a large chunk of the season...Would you be comfortable passing on a potential franchise guy this year & going into next season still evaluating your qb? As we saw this year, 6 games can make or break your season.

Honestly, the only time evaluation I'm giving Keenum is the rest of the year, which is six more games. This season is lost already so you might as well see what you have in Keenum, and that's why I'm so pissed at Kubiak right now. Everyone in their right mind knows Schaub is finished in Houston. Playing Schaub in a lost season is pointless to me. The only thing it accomplished to me was taking away from Keenum's evaluation time.

Six more games is all I'm willing to give Keenum to know if I think the Texans should draft a QB in April. If he's legit than I would want the Texans to draft an OT because I think that's Texans biggest weakness and too important to pass up. But if Keenum's not the future than I would want the future QB in the first round...

Even as I'm typing this, I'm getting more pissed off at Kubiak and his stupid decision to bench Keenum. Finding out if he's the future QB is too ******* important to this team to me to even think about benching him. I definitely want Kubiak gone after that decision Sunday.

Honoring Earl 34
11-19-2013, 03:00 PM
Folks think I'm making it up. Hell, I wondered if I was "projecting" my feelings onto it. The tape didn't lie, the short crossing routes weren't there for Case in the 2nd half. They made a miraculous reappearance when #8 stepped onto the field.

I wouldn't call it anything except Kubiak going into turtle mode until he lost the lead . My deep dark theory is Schaub is like a 4th son and Kubiak is trying to let him save face at the team and fans expense . My deeper darker theory is Kubiak sees himself a QB guru genuis type guy and he can't admit Matt's not won a SB under his guidance . :butterfly:

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 03:01 PM
Just think if we had won. In Kubiak's mind it would justify rolling Schaub back out there this week.

Personally, I don't care who plays QB the rest of the season. The season's over and imo our future QB is not currently on our roster.

Our defense is in shambles. They're number 1 in yardage, so that should give Wade something to add to his legacy. Our offense blows if we aren't throwing bombs on busted plays.

That is the assumption that freaked everyone out. First, you don't know that. Second, I don't think that is the case (no pun intended). As a fan, I agree with you that the season is now about looking to the future. However, I want my coach trying to win games, especially when we are still mathematically in a playoff race, which we certainly were on Sunday (that second wildcard team will probably only win 9, maybe even 8 games)

To me, Kubiak's worst gameday decision, was running Ben Tate on that 3rd and 1. Either DJ should have been in, we should've run an end around or something else exotic, or we should've handed the ball to an up back (Jones)... Tate's play has deteriorated after halftime each of the past two weeks, after he has cooled down during halftime, taken shots in the first half, etc... I understand wanting a RB that knows the plays and protections in the game, but you can't subject a guy with broken ribs to a short yardage situation with all the Bigs in the game, plus and extra LB. Just a stupid decision!

Honoring Earl 34
11-19-2013, 03:14 PM
That is the assumption that freaked everyone out. First, you don't know that. Second, I don't think that is the case (no pun intended). As a fan, I agree with you that the season is now about looking to the future. However, I want my coach trying to win games, especially when we are still mathematically in a playoff race, which we certainly were on Sunday (that second wildcard team will probably only win 9, maybe even 8 games)

To me, Kubiak's worst gameday decision, was running Ben Tate on that 3rd and 1. Either DJ should have been in, we should've run an end around or something else exotic, or we should've handed the ball to an up back (Jones)... Tate's play has deteriorated after halftime each of the past two weeks, after he has cooled down during halftime, taken shots in the first half, etc... I understand wanting a RB that knows the plays and protections in the game, but you can't subject a guy with broken ribs to a short yardage situation with all the Bigs in the game, plus and extra LB. Just a stupid decision!

Brandon Brooks saved their ass on the 1st 4th down by false starting . The game would have ended with a dump off short of the goal .

Dutchrudder
11-19-2013, 03:17 PM
Since Keenum is going into his 5th game, we'll do 5 games. Guess the QB first and then guess which posters would have declared him not NFL caliber --

1st game: 13/23, 168 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 1 sack for 9 yds, QB rtg 79.6, 0 fumbles

2nd game: 12/24, 86 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 4 sacks for 17 yds, QB rtg 58.7, 2 fumbles lost

3rd game: 33/54, 364 yds, 2TD, 0INT, 3 sacks for 19 yds, QB rtg 93.4, 2 fumbles, 0 lost

4th game: 16/20, 202 yds, 3TD, 0INT, 0 sacks, QB rtg 148.3, 0 fumbles

5th game: 25/38, 203 yds, 2TD, 4INT, 2 sacks for 20 yds, QB rtg 57.1, 1 fumble, 0 lost




For anyone who misses the obvious point, 5 games in is still evaluation time. It takes the best QBs a while to figure it out.

Not enough INTs to be Peyton, no rushing yards mentioned, so probably not Young. No reception mentioned so it's not Favre. Not enough pass attempts to be Brees... I'll go with Brady.

Runner
11-19-2013, 03:19 PM
Brandon Brooks saved their ass on the 1st 4th down by false starting . The game would have ended with a dump off short of the goal .

That completed dump off was also short of the two yards needed for a first down. Amazing.

amazing80
11-19-2013, 03:20 PM
That is the assumption that freaked everyone out. First, you don't know that. Second, I don't think that is the case (no pun intended). As a fan, I agree with you that the season is now about looking to the future. However, I want my coach trying to win games, especially when we are still mathematically in a playoff race, which we certainly were on Sunday (that second wildcard team will probably only win 9, maybe even 8 games)

To me, Kubiak's worst gameday decision, was running Ben Tate on that 3rd and 1. Either DJ should have been in, we should've run an end around or something else exotic, or we should've handed the ball to an up back (Jones)... Tate's play has deteriorated after halftime each of the past two weeks, after he has cooled down during halftime, taken shots in the first half, etc... I understand wanting a RB that knows the plays and protections in the game, but you can't subject a guy with broken ribs to a short yardage situation with all the Bigs in the game, plus and extra LB. Just a stupid decision!

thats a coaching error dude.....just proves even more that gary has no in game feel

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 03:21 PM
I didn't miss anything other than the play-calling and protection CHANGING. Case didn't have the same options Schaub had, it's as simple as that. It wasn't that he kept missing hot routes again-and-again, the play called didn't have the same routes as Schaub had.

Yes, that's what Kubiak said. He said he wanted to respond to the defense with different things and that it was not fair to ask keenum to manage those... Specificially, I don't know what those are. However, here is my best guess why you noticed what you did:

** The defense focused hard on preventing the rollout. Even in the first half, Keenum had to make two very athletic plays to escape the containment when he did get to the edge. Teams have focused on flooding the A gaps, either with blitzes or by blitzing the edge but crashing and stunting DL men into them. Most of Keenum's poor throws tend to be on short crosses, etc... Consider the low, weak pass to AJ on the cross on 3rd down in the 3rd quarter. I think it is a vision issue. Keenum, at least as the offense is currently designed and with the defense doing what is doing, can not execute anything out of three and five step drops other than go routes and flags on the edge of the defense. He can't see over all those bodies to hit the quick crossing route with all the interior pressure. So, when Schaub entered the game, those crosses and quick passes inside the hashmarks were available again and were likely a focus of the playcalling and play to Schaub's strengths at QB.

I'm sure there is much more complexity to it than that, but those are things I noticed and that make sense to me.

Realize also that Keenum's assets and limitations are significantly different than Schaub's. Given that this year's team and preparation was based off the assumption that Schaub would start and Tate would backup, their is a limitation to what can be done in the season to design things for Keenum. For instance, perhaps Keenum needs a 330 lb mauler at center... perhaps TEs being vertical threats so that he can attack the seams with them at 20 yards more regularly instead of relying on TEs with great hands to hook into a zone at 8 yards, which he may struggle to see... There are all kinds of adjustments that can be made in the off-season which would provide Keenum a greater opportunity to excel but simply aren't all feasible now.

Actually, it's exciting to think about it. Despite my affinity for Kubiak's program, the unknown is starting to look quite appealing.

HOU-TEX
11-19-2013, 03:24 PM
That is the assumption that freaked everyone out. First, you don't know that. Second, I don't think that is the case (no pun intended). As a fan, I agree with you that the season is now about looking to the future. However, I want my coach trying to win games, especially when we are still mathematically in a playoff race, which we certainly were on Sunday (that second wildcard team will probably only win 9, maybe even 8 games)

To me, Kubiak's worst gameday decision, was running Ben Tate on that 3rd and 1. Either DJ should have been in, we should've run an end around or something else exotic, or we should've handed the ball to an up back (Jones)... Tate's play has deteriorated after halftime each of the past two weeks, after he has cooled down during halftime, taken shots in the first half, etc... I understand wanting a RB that knows the plays and protections in the game, but you can't subject a guy with broken ribs to a short yardage situation with all the Bigs in the game, plus and extra LB. Just a stupid decision!

DJ would've had less of a chance than Tate had on that play. Wade Smith was blasted into the backfield, completely wrecking the play.

An end around?? :spit: Maybe we should've tried running 22 veer, no? I mean, it's about as exotic as an end around

eriadoc
11-19-2013, 03:27 PM
Not enough INTs to be Peyton, no rushing yards mentioned, so probably not Young. No reception mentioned so it's not Favre. Not enough pass attempts to be Brees... I'll go with Brady.

Winner! :)

Brees' numbers are pretty pedestrian overall. Brady had some ups and downs, like Keenum. Brees was just meh across the board.

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 03:35 PM
thats a coaching error dude.....just proves even more that gary has no in game feel

It was a huge coaching error! I agree with you. I also agree with you that it is an example of Kubiak's limitation as a coach. Please don't mistake my affinity for Coach Kubiak, nor my willingness to defend him in some areas, for blind loyalty. His process speed and imagination during the game is a weakness. He does not have the ability to adjust on the fly like many of the great coaches have: Belicheck, Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, Sean Peyton, Jim Harbaugh, etc... Heck, as far as that skill goes, he can't match up with Del Rio, Rex Ryan, and others.

I just don't think that precludes Kubiak from have success, even winning championships in the NFL. I believe Kubiak is a coach in skill set, style, and methodology, like:

Marty Schottenheimer
Tony Dungy
or Tom Landry

I don't mean that he is as good as they are. Only that he has similar abilities and that I see that potential in him. So, though I have recognized issues with him and also been quite frustrated at times, I do not/ have not thought he can't win. I still don't. However, I think circumstances in Houston are at a point when a head coaching change is likely- and probably necessary.

-- Hopefully, the coaching search will be a good one and not simply one made for the sake of change. Then, after this team has a lot of success, fans will remember fondly what Kubiak did to build this organization and appreciate his role in the team's future success- especially if Keenum does end up as the answer at QB... If he does, Kubiak deserves a ton of credit for his development!

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 03:44 PM
DJ would've had less of a chance than Tate had on that play. Wade Smith was blasted into the backfield, completely wrecking the play.

An end around?? :spit: Maybe we should've tried running 22 veer, no? I mean, it's about as exotic as an end around

It actually wasn't Wade Smith. Myers got blasted into Wade and then he could get around him, if I recall. It was a call destined for failure before the play happened and yet it was also very predictable.... which is incredibly frustrating. I was not arguing for a particular call, but I would have felt better if the play call illustrated an understanding of the game situation and circumstances- not the least of which was Tate's condition. Some sort of adjustment and imagination (not drawing a new play in the sand but making a call against tendency) was required. We have run the fake end around 12-15 times this year and have yet to hand it to the WR... I don't think we do it or should from the Jumbo package... but we did not need to be in the Jumbo package down to one TE, without a healthy RB, and with our interior offensive line getting beat most of the afternoon.

dalemurphy
11-19-2013, 03:57 PM
we get it dale, youre a gary apologist and dont give a damn about our future beyond gary.....just stop typing already

What are you talking about?

Just because I don't spew anger and hate doesn't mean that I don't recognize his failures. I have said for weeks that firing him is justifiable and likely to happen. I can't fully endorse the move until I see who the organization will replace him with. If they were to simply promote Wade Phillips, I would be very disappointed, because that decision would indicate the organization simply wanted a scapegoat for the season and did not recognize/or care to fix the problems that led to this season, as well as last year's disappointing conclusion.

I was a fan of the Texans before Kubiak and am likely to be one afterwards. I say "likely" because there are potential hirings that could deter me... As a Dallas fan, the Switzer years beat my fandom out of me. I'm not sure if I could stomach Rob Ryan... or, God forbid, some nightmare grab from college like Mack Brown (ridiculous, I know, but: Switzer, Holtz, Spurrier, Ron Meyer...)

Double Barrel
11-19-2013, 04:19 PM
Kubiak's comment was on operating tempo. Kubiak has never ran an offense with anything approaching that tempo. Sure, I'm aware of the far lesser competition Case faced, but that has nothing to do with the tempo at which it operates. JFF is operating the same offense at the same tempo in the best conference in football. Kubiak either is doing his best to obfuscate what he really means, or he's failed to prepare his QB adequately.

Given that we've generally looked fantastic in the first half and lousy in the 2nd, I'm not blaming it on the QB, no matter what the number is on the jersey.

I gotcha'. I have never understood Kubiak's avoidance of a no huddle offense. The other night Manning ran it, but it was not a quick snap. He had to run the clock down, so right after the ball was down his offense got in formation. Then he just sat there until there was 5 seconds on the clock to snap it.

This takes a lot of discipline by the offense, but it is effective because it prevents the defense from substituting players and they have to wait much longer than usual for the snap.

Denver can do this because the no-huddle is a staple, so the strategy was a variation of something they already have in their arsenal.

Folks think I'm making it up. Hell, I wondered if I was "projecting" my feelings onto it. The tape didn't lie, the short crossing routes weren't there for Case in the 2nd half. They made a miraculous reappearance when #8 stepped onto the field.

I'm glad you mentioned that because I was wondering the same thing during the game. But without the benefit of seeing the whole field, I did not have the big picture to know for certain that those routes were not there.

WTF? It makes no sense...unless you start to speculate on other things.

The traditional WCO has always been strong on beating blitzes. It is the nature of the scheme, and many QBs have used it effectively against the blitz for decades.

Heck, Buddy Ryan's blitz happy 46 defense had one Achilles heel: the WCO. They always had a hard time against the 49ers, and we even saw it with the Oilers and Joe Montana in a Chiefs uniform tearing up Buddy's defense.

So why are the short routes not there for Case? Million dollar question.

eriadoc
11-19-2013, 04:26 PM
I'm glad you mentioned that because I was wondering the same thing during the game. But without the benefit of seeing the whole field, I did not have the big picture to know for certain that those routes were not there.

WTF? It makes no sense...unless you start to speculate on other things.

The traditional WCO has always been strong on beating blitzes. It is the nature of the scheme, and many QBs have used it effectively against the blitz for decades.

Heck, Buddy Ryan's blitz happy 46 defense had one Achilles heel: the WCO. They always had a hard time against the 49ers, and we even saw it with the Oilers and Joe Montana in a Chiefs uniform tearing up Buddy's defense.

So why are the short routes not there for Case? Million dollar question.

Because he sucks at picking up the blitz. They don't run those routes because he doesn't pick up on them, so they run streaks while he takes a 7-step drop in the face of a 12-man blitz.

You really suck at following the narrative, DB. ;)

TejasTom
11-19-2013, 06:14 PM
Winner! :)

Brees' numbers are pretty pedestrian overall. Brady had some ups and downs, like Keenum. Brees was just meh across the board.

And that is with much better coach.

leebigeztx
11-19-2013, 06:20 PM
People act like this is new. Case as ive said has limitstiond on the type of routes that can be performed. He also hss been trying to mske everything a big play. His inability to see ovrr the pressure in his face has been bad. Hes s young guy and I prefer to evaluate him to see if hes a backup or just a placeholder till they get the right qb.

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 06:29 PM
I gotcha'. I have never understood Kubiak's avoidance of a no huddle offense. The other night Manning ran it, but it was not a quick snap. He had to run the clock down, so right after the ball was down his offense got in formation. Then he just sat there until there was 5 seconds on the clock to snap it.

This takes a lot of discipline by the offense, but it is effective because it prevents the defense from substituting players and they have to wait much longer than usual for the snap.

Denver can do this because the no-huddle is a staple, so the strategy was a variation of something they already have in their arsenal.


I'm glad you mentioned that because I was wondering the same thing during the game. But without the benefit of seeing the whole field, I did not have the big picture to know for certain that those routes were not there.

WTF? It makes no sense...unless you start to speculate on other things.

The traditional WCO has always been strong on beating blitzes. It is the nature of the scheme, and many QBs have used it effectively against the blitz for decades.

Heck, Buddy Ryan's blitz happy 46 defense had one Achilles heel: the WCO. They always had a hard time against the 49ers, and we even saw it with the Oilers and Joe Montana in a Chiefs uniform tearing up Buddy's defense.

So why are the short routes not there for Case? Million dollar question.

I think what dale suggests about him not being able to see over and around the LOS on those 3 step drops has some validity.....there's no denying he's had some issues hitting the short underneath stuff....but then you could still run slants and stuff like that out of the shotgun too so...

Keenum's the type that wont throw the ball unless he's got a safe place to miss the throw as well....That's a good thing most times, but it can be detrimental when trying to throw inside b/c tight windows are the norm and there's usually not a safe place to miss..especially across the middle.

amazing80
11-19-2013, 06:33 PM
I think what dale suggests about him not being able to see over and around the LOS on those 3 step drops has some validity.....there's no denying he's had some issues hitting the short underneath stuff....but then you could still run slants and stuff like that out of the shotgun too so...

Keenum's the type that wont throw the ball unless he's got a safe place to miss the throw as well....That's a good thing most times, but it can be detrimental when trying to throw inside b/c tight windows are the norm and there's usually not a safe place to miss..especially across the middle.

what? he threw a dart to posey in traffic...why dont we try that again?

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-media/videos/Game-Highlights-Keenums-42-yard-pass/29685652-fab1-44b4-82b6-a5e3fbc41d90

HJam72
11-19-2013, 06:34 PM
Since Keenum is going into his 5th game, we'll do 5 games. Guess the QB first and then guess which posters would have declared him not NFL caliber --

1st game: 13/23, 168 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 1 sack for 9 yds, QB rtg 79.6, 0 fumbles

2nd game: 12/24, 86 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 4 sacks for 17 yds, QB rtg 58.7, 2 fumbles lost

3rd game: 33/54, 364 yds, 2TD, 0INT, 3 sacks for 19 yds, QB rtg 93.4, 2 fumbles, 0 lost

4th game: 16/20, 202 yds, 3TD, 0INT, 0 sacks, QB rtg 148.3, 0 fumbles

5th game: 25/38, 203 yds, 2TD, 4INT, 2 sacks for 20 yds, QB rtg 57.1, 1 fumble, 0 lost

For anyone who misses the obvious point, 5 games in is still evaluation time. It takes the best QBs a while to figure it out.

For whatever reason, I averaged these out, so I'm going to post the average of these 5 games:

20/32, 205 yds., 2TD, 1INT, 2 sacks for 13 yds, QB rtg 87.42, 1 fumble, 0 lost.

Mr teX
11-19-2013, 06:43 PM
what? he threw a dart to posey in traffic...why dont we try that again?

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-media/videos/Game-Highlights-Keenums-42-yard-pass/29685652-fab1-44b4-82b6-a5e3fbc41d90

That's 1 play bud...1 play that was hardly in traffic...1 play that he also was in the shotgun in....1 play that he also ran a trillion times at U of H.

Why didn't you pull up the numerous near picks and pass break ups he had trying to throw over the middle in the AZ game? Or the short armed pass to AJ last week?

amazing80
11-19-2013, 06:55 PM
That's 1 play bud...1 play that was hardly in traffic...1 play that he also was in the shotgun in....1 play that he also ran a trillion times at U of H.

Why didn't you pull up the numerous near picks and pass break ups he had trying to throw over the middle in the AZ game? Or the short armed pass to AJ last week?

because im showing a play that proves case can beat a blitz with, yet we fail to use it more

tvaughan
11-19-2013, 07:02 PM
People act like this is new. Case as ive said has limitstiond on the type of routes that can be performed. He also hss been trying to mske everything a big play. His inability to see ovrr the pressure in his face has been bad.

You honestly think they don't run crossing patterns because Case is short? You honestly believe that?

Rey
11-19-2013, 07:34 PM
Folks think I'm making it up. Hell, I wondered if I was "projecting" my feelings onto it. The tape didn't lie, the short crossing routes weren't there for Case in the 2nd half. They made a miraculous reappearance when #8 stepped onto the field.

That was my impression watching the game also. Schaub made one good throw. Other than that I saw guys running right across his face on short crossing routes wide open.

I thought, well maybe case was just missing those guys. But it just didn't make any sense that he couldn't beat a single blitz by hitting a guy on a quick slant or a drag...quick routes are staples of beating the blitz and it's just strange that it seems case is always waiting for something diene field to develop. No three step drops. I mean, even awful qb's should be able to dink and dunk if a team is constantly blitzing.

I said it after the game but I think subconsciously kubiak may not be putting case in as good of a situation as he could. It's like his game plan has gotten lazier, and lazier. And then the goofiness about him fixin to do some stuff that the young qb wasn't prepared for. I don't trust kubiak. That whole situation is curious to me.

The whole mentioning of Schaub working hard to start again early in the week...then he inserts him into the game to play hero.

And my guy tells me starting case this week wasn't his decision. Hes normally tight lipped about that all week, and now all of a sudden he just spouts it out when the first person asked.

I'll be glad when this season is over and kubiak is gone.

DexmanC
11-19-2013, 07:47 PM
Case can't beat a blitz of his own coach calls a seven step drop with 10.guys on the line of scrimmage.

CloakNNNdagger
11-19-2013, 08:44 PM
because im showing a play that proves case can beat a blitz with, yet we fail to use it more

You honestly think they don't run crossing patterns because Case is short? You honestly believe that?

That was my impression watching the game also. Schaub made one good throw. Other than that I saw guys running right across his face on short crossing routes wide open.

I thought, well maybe case was just missing those guys. But it just didn't make any sense that he couldn't beat a single blitz by hitting a guy on a quick slant or a drag...quick routes are staples of beating the blitz and it's just strange that it seems case is always waiting for something diene field to develop. No three step drops. I mean, even awful qb's should be able to dink and dunk if a team is constantly blitzing.

I said it after the game but I think subconsciously kubiak may not be putting case in as good of a situation as he could. It's like his game plan has gotten lazier, and lazier. And then the goofiness about him fixin to do some stuff that the young qb wasn't prepared for. I don't trust kubiak. That whole situation is curious to me.

The whole mentioning of Schaub working hard to start again early in the week...then he inserts him into the game to play hero.

And my guy tells me starting case this week wasn't his decision. Hes normally tight lipped about that all week, and now all of a sudden he just spouts it out when the first person asked.

I'll be glad when this season is over and kubiak is gone.


I went back and reviewed the game observing the plays called with Case and Schaub.......and it was so obvious that Kubiak did absolutely NOTHING to help Case to succeed. The short middle field outlet was not even a given option. People are right when they say that Case couldn't see the short route receivers over the blitzing defenders.................there weren't any.

And trying to basically put 7 lineman in....................give me a break........there's got to be a problem........and it isn't pointing to Case.:toropalm:

gwallaia
11-19-2013, 09:01 PM
With the exception of a few good posts, this thread is nothing more than a pissing match between Texan fans. Well done guys.

Hervoyel
11-19-2013, 09:18 PM
With the exception of a few good posts, this thread is nothing more than a pissing match between Texan fans. Well done guys.

I had to go. What else was I supposed to do? idonno:

Scores on the pissing match? :perfect10:

bOODRO87
11-19-2013, 09:18 PM
With the exception of a few good posts, this thread is nothing more than a pissing match between Texan fans. Well done guys.

Haha, I saw the thread and thought to myself, Why is the Keenum starter for Jacksonville game thread nine pages long?

Thanks for the break down.

tvaughan
11-19-2013, 09:28 PM
I went back and reviewed the game observing the plays called with Case and Schaub.......and it was so obvious that Kubiak did absolutely NOTHING to help Case to succeed. The short middle field outlet was not even a given option. People are right when they say that Case couldn't see the short route receivers over the blitzing defenders.................there weren't any.:

Thanks for looking that over. I noticed that during the game but I wasn't sure just how many plays I identified. I was getting really frustrated when people were saying "Case can't read the blitz" because I wasn't seeing anyone else reading the blitz either. No hot routes that I could identify, no slants, no routes breaking early. I saw one blitz where the shortest route was a 15 yard out!!

It seemed as if the plays called were discounting the reality of the all-out blitz and left Case to make his own time to throw. There didn't seem to be a game plan to deal with the blitz either. Very few screens, no draws, no shovel passes, no max protect.

Kubiak isn't dumb, but he is stubborn. I have no idea what his logic was there.

The blitz is NOT just the QBs responsibility. At the minimum it requires at least a WR to make the same read. It didn't seem like that was happening. This isn't even getting to the O-line and HB pass blocking which was, shall we say "poor."

The assertion that Case simply "can't read a blitz" would be more convincing if they were more elaborate blitzes (they're not) or if Case was missing the hot read (there doesn't seem to be one.) Case missed some plays, no doubt about it, but the trouble runs much deeper than Case's somehow dropping 50 points at halftime each game.

chicagotexan2
11-19-2013, 10:29 PM
I had to go. What else was I supposed to do? idonno:

Scores on the pissing match? :perfect10:

Pissing match?

That's my kind of party!!

Fo sho,

R. Kelly

leebigeztx
11-20-2013, 04:04 AM
You honestly think they don't run crossing patterns because Case is short? You honestly believe that?

You gonna tell me andre johnson can't read a blitz and run hot? This has been the same 2nd half pattern except it happened in the 1st half. Soon as the blitz come,he's looking to escape by dropping eyes vs stading and delivering. The double a gap blitzes by cardinals coming in the face of a small qb can be problematic. Again,I don't see the upside of pulling him,but to once again blame the coach for keenums collapse again is juvenile. He's playing like world beater in the 1st half and a bum in the 2nd. Against the cardinals he was brutals from 2nd qt on. How many passes did he throw right to the cards defense that they dropped?

thunderkyss
11-20-2013, 09:04 AM
This team was 2-7 entering the Raiders game. The game was about as meaningless as it could get in November. Might as well leave Keenum in and get him some in-game experience in the hurry up offense.

If you don't think Keenum gives us a viable chance to win, he shouldn't be in there.

This is just entertainment for us, but Kubiak has a responsibility to Dennison, Benton, Dorrell, Harris, & all of the position coaches excluding Herring & Joseph (chances are that Wade will survive at DC if he wants to).

I don't think this is about being short sighted. He's trying to win a game & by pulling Case, he's telling us he does not believe Case gives us that viable chance to win.

At the same time, he's not helping Case with the play calling. Ben Tate has 4 broken ribs. We should be using 4 WRs more often than not, 1 RB, primarily out of the shotgun. I'd also use a TE instead of a RB when we're in shotgun... a decent receiver out of the backfield who can protect the QB or sneak out and catch a screen.


If he were smart, he'd tweak the offense for Case now & worry about making him Matt Schaub next season, but with that stunt he just pulled, he pretty much killed any opportunity of being here with Case next season.

Hervoyel
11-20-2013, 09:32 AM
If you don't think Keenum gives us a viable chance to win, he shouldn't be in there.

This is just entertainment for us, but Kubiak has a responsibility to Dennison, Benton, Dorrell, Harris, & all of the position coaches excluding Herring & Joseph (chances are that Wade will survive at DC if he wants to).

I don't think this is about being short sighted. He's trying to win a game & by pulling Case, he's telling us he does not believe Case gives us that viable chance to win.

At the same time, he's not helping Case with the play calling. Ben Tate has 4 broken ribs. We should be using 4 WRs more often than not, 1 RB, primarily out of the shotgun. I'd also use a TE instead of a RB when we're in shotgun... a decent receiver out of the backfield who can protect the QB or sneak out and catch a screen.


If he were smart, he'd tweak the offense for Case now & worry about making him Matt Schaub next season, but with that stunt he just pulled, he pretty much killed any opportunity of being here with Case next season.



That's what I said. Problem is he can't bring himself to not try and mold Case into another one of his guys. Instead of doing what Case does well and building an offense around it he's back to that same old square peg - round hole mentality that is his Achilles heel.

CloakNNNdagger
11-20-2013, 09:41 AM
That's what I said. Problem is he can't bring himself to not try and mold Case into another one of his guys. Instead of doing what Case does well and building an offense around it he's back to that same old square peg - round hole mentality that is his Achilles heel.

What ever happened to Kubiak's long-standing well-publicized policy of putting his players in the best position to succeed by planning to their strengths???:mcnugget:

Uncle Rico
11-20-2013, 09:57 AM
If he were smart, he'd tweak the offense for Case now & worry about making him Matt Schaub next season, but with that stunt he just pulled, he pretty much killed any opportunity of being here with Case next season.

Going mainly to a pistol formation wasn't doing that already? I thought everybody around here thought it was smart and would make Keenum nice and comfy? Kubiak is catering to the kid and doing things he himself hasn't done much of. I happen to think the offense looks much better when you take the snap from center, NFL defenses are not getting caught off guard with the read option stuff anymore.

An NFL QB should be able to read a defense, if your wideouts aren't helping you tuck tail and run FORWARDS never should you take 10-15 yard sacks. That has nothing to do with scheme or playcalling.

speedfreek
11-20-2013, 10:13 AM
I disagree. Go back and watch the Oakland game. Tate's best runs
came from the pistol, and every time Keenum went under center in
the second half the OL was blown up -- drastically on stretch plays.

This OL isn't capable of zone blocking anymore. The players are
no longer suited to it. The right side is a mess and Brown has lost
a step. (injury most likely)

When the Texans are in the pistol, the defense has to maintain discipline
because there could be a run, QB run, or pass. They just can't pin their
ears back and send the house because Case is mobile.

In the second half, a good majority of under center plays failed instantly
when the ball was snapped. Honestly, it was so obvious that Gary
went hurry-up to keep Matt clean and when they started blitzing him
-- the same thing happened.

This o-line cannot provide enough time for any QB operating under center
when the heat is on..

Kubiak is being a total stubborn knucklehead forcing a square peg into
a round hole. His scheme cannot be run with the folks we have on
the field -- he's just the only person inflexible enough to cope with that
fact so poorly..

Makes me wish Harbaugh was here. Case is a much more accurate
passer than Kaepernic and their scheme would better fit our guys on
the field right now.

TJ

Going mainly to a pistol formation wasn't doing that already? I thought everybody around here thought it was smart and would make Keenum nice and comfy? Kubiak is catering to the kid and doing things he himself hasn't done much of. I happen to think the offense looks much better when you take the snap from center, NFL defenses are not getting caught off guard with the read option stuff anymore.

An NFL QB should be able to read a defense, if your wideouts aren't helping you tuck tail and run FORWARDS never should you take 10-15 yard sacks. That has nothing to do with scheme or playcalling.

Uncle Rico
11-20-2013, 10:51 AM
I disagree. Go back and watch the Oakland game. Tate's best runs
came from the pistol, and every time Keenum went under center in
the second half the OL was blown up -- drastically on stretch plays.

This OL isn't capable of zone blocking anymore. The players are
no longer suited to it. The right side is a mess and Brown has lost
a step. (injury most likely)

When the Texans are in the pistol, the defense has to maintain discipline
because there could be a run, QB run, or pass. They just can't pin their
ears back and send the house because Case is mobile.

In the second half, a good majority of under center plays failed instantly
when the ball was snapped. Honestly, it was so obvious that Gary
went hurry-up to keep Matt clean and when they started blitzing him
-- the same thing happened.

This o-line cannot provide enough time for any QB operating under center
when the heat is on..

Kubiak is being a total stubborn knucklehead forcing a square peg into
a round hole. His scheme cannot be run with the folks we have on
the field -- he's just the only person inflexible enough to cope with that
fact so poorly..

Makes me wish Harbaugh was here. Case is a much more accurate
passer than Kaepernic and their scheme would better fit our guys on
the field right now.

TJ

Why doesn't Schaub run the pistol then if all he has to do is handoff? I agree the line sucks, I dont agree Keenum is more accurate in the intermediate passing game and koobs is trying to reinvent the wheel by running a system he is unfamiliar with.

dalemurphy
11-20-2013, 10:58 AM
What ever happened to Kubiak's long-standing well-publicized policy of putting his players in the best position to succeed by planning to their strengths???:mcnugget:

It ain't working out! Oddly, this was easily his most talented offense in his eight years, at least in regards to having weapons in multiple positions... And, as bad as the line has played, we would have killed for this group through 2008... There is no clear explanation why this has happened. The snowball effect is in full gear, though, so he will have to exit the organization wondering what the heck happened.

deucetx
11-20-2013, 11:04 AM
Why doesn't Schaub run the pistol then if all he has to do is handoff? I agree the line sucks, I dont agree Keenum is more accurate in the intermediate passing game and koobs is trying to reinvent the wheel by running a system he is unfamiliar with.

Schaub did run the pistol formation. We did it quite a bit against the Seahawks as well. Last I remember Steph had an article out about it and said Schaub ran the pistol/shotgun 22% of the time.

Uncle Rico
11-20-2013, 11:35 AM
Schaub did run the pistol formation. We did it quite a bit against the Seahawks as well. Last I remember Steph had an article out about it and said Schaub ran the pistol/shotgun 22% of the time.

So let's see prior to this year top offense - no pistol.

This year pistol - shaky offense particularly second halves.

Line issues date back to Winston and Brisiel thus not thinking they were necessary.

All of a sudden Kubiaks system doesnt work and its predictable?

Dutchrudder
11-20-2013, 11:41 AM
"All of a sudden?" Where have you been the last 5 years? This offense has been very predictable for a while, but it wasn't an issue in 2011/12 because our O-line+Foster was good enough to score TDs most of the time in the Red Zone. Without that run-game working, Kubiak's offense is completely neutered. He probably could make some adjustments and change strategy to account for that, but it's pretty obvious that's outside-the-box type of thinking for him. I think he's more content to stay in the box and **** all over the place instead.

Double Barrel
11-20-2013, 11:42 AM
Pissing match?

That's my kind of party!!

Fo sho,

R. Kelly

I really wanted that song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rcCHF9EHnQ) to be our wedding song, but she did not think it was romantic enough. :heart:

As far as the thread goes, it is obvious that Kubiak has completely lost the team and it shows in a myriad of ways. Time to nuke the whole thing and move on.

Hervoyel
11-20-2013, 11:44 AM
So let's see prior to this year top offense - no pistol.

This year pistol - shaky offense particularly second halves.

Line issues date back to Winston and Brisiel thus not thinking they were necessary.

All of a sudden Kubiaks system doesnt work and its predictable?

Lets be honest here. It's been pretty damned predictable for a number of years. Beating up on the bad defenses and getting destroyed (or at the very least "handled") by the good ones isn't a recipe for long-term success. It looks good in the regular season when your schedule hands you a bunch of weak sisters but come playoff time you don't get very far.

I wonder if Oakland is (as I'm reading more often these days) going to kick Brisiel to the curb after this year. Makes me curious if we could pick him up again (in the unlikely event we stay with this system) as a short-term veteran presence.

Uncle Rico
11-20-2013, 12:27 PM
"All of a sudden?" Where have you been the last 5 years? This offense has been very predictable for a while, but it wasn't an issue in 2011/12 because our O-line+Foster was good enough to score TDs most of the time in the Red Zone. Without that run-game working, Kubiak's offense is completely neutered. He probably could make some adjustments and change strategy to account for that, but it's pretty obvious that's outside-the-box type of thinking for him. I think he's more content to stay in the box and **** all over the place instead.

Lets be honest here. It's been pretty damned predictable for a number of years. Beating up on the bad defenses and getting destroyed (or at the very least "handled") by the good ones isn't a recipe for long-term success. It looks good in the regular season when your schedule hands you a bunch of weak sisters but come playoff time you don't get very far.

I wonder if Oakland is (as I'm reading more often these days) going to kick Brisiel to the curb after this year. Makes me curious if we could pick him up again (in the unlikely event we stay with this system) as a short-term veteran presence.

Yet Kubiaks system has rendered a top offense every single year. When you don't have an elit QB too many other factors have to be perfect.

Brisco_County
11-20-2013, 12:45 PM
It ain't working out! Oddly, this was easily his most talented offense in his eight years, at least in regards to having weapons in multiple positions... And, as bad as the line has played, we would have killed for this group through 2008... There is no clear explanation why this has happened. The snowball effect is in full gear, though, so he will have to exit the organization wondering what the heck happened.

It's the line. Run blocking has been poor too.

chicagotexan2
11-20-2013, 12:46 PM
I really wanted that song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rcCHF9EHnQ) to be our wedding song, but she did not think it was romantic enough. :heart:

As far as the thread goes, it is obvious that Kubiak has completely lost the team and it shows in a myriad of ways. Time to nuke the whole thing and move on.

Oh my God I'd never seen this. Damn I laughed.

Double Barrel
11-20-2013, 01:14 PM
Oh my God I'd never seen this. Damn I laughed.

Here's the original version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5sX24usBvQ). Prepare to laugh! :D

maddogmrb
11-20-2013, 01:26 PM
I went back and reviewed the game observing the plays called with Case and Schaub.......and it was so obvious that Kubiak did absolutely NOTHING to help Case to succeed. The short middle field outlet was not even a given option. People are right when they say that Case couldn't see the short route receivers over the blitzing defenders.................there weren't any.

And trying to basically put 7 lineman in....................give me a break........there's got to be a problem........and it isn't pointing to Case.:toropalm:

Exactly, and for those of you who say Case can't find the short middle routes never watched him in college.... he was WAY MORE known for just those types of passes that turned into more YAC because he is great at leading his receivers. A few weeks ago you Case knockers said he can't throw the deep ball ... now you're trying to say that's all he can throw.

Anyone who watched these games can see that the biggest problems Case has is an incredibly porous oline, no running game, and incredibly inconsistent play calling and coaching decisions.

Something IS going on with this team and I'm not sure if it is a conspiracy or just plain incompetence. I think Kubiak is a good person and so I am going to say it is pure incompetence.

And, why in HADES did we not sign Eric Winston when he was available to us earlier in the year????? Can you name ONE person who believes that what we have at RT is a better solution???? Okay, I guess Rick Smith and Gary Kubiak .... hmmmmmm

eriadoc
11-20-2013, 01:37 PM
Yet Kubiaks system has rendered a top offense every single year.

Let me start off by saying that I have always said Kubiak is a good offensive coordinator. I've defended him on the Xs and Os side of things, as well as his QB work. But let's not buy into this top offense crap. His systems tend to put up a lot of yardage, but scoring lags behind. I don't care one bit about yardage. Not counting '06, because that was a shambles of a team, here is what we're looking at:

'07: 333.6 ypg (14th), 23.7 ppg (12th). League lead was 36.8 ppg.
'08: 382.1 ypg (3rd), 22.9 ppg (17th). League lead was 28.9 ppg.
'09: 383.1 ypg (4th), 24.3 ppg (10th). League lead was 31.9 ppg.
'10: 386.6 ypg (3rd), 24.4 ppg (9th). League lead was 32.4 ppg.
'11: 372.1 ypg (13th), 23.8 ppg (10th). League lead was 35.0 ppg.
'12: 372.1 ypg (7th), 26.0 ppg (8th). League lead was 34.8 ppg.
'13: 378.0 ypg (10th), 19.3 ppg (27th). League lead is 39.8 (then 28.8 for #2).

So they've never had a truly top scoring offense, which is all that really matters, and scoring has almost always lagged yardage. Even in a dysfunctional season like this, the offense is putting up 378 yards per game. So yardage doesn't impress me. As much as I think highly of Kubiak as a play designer, I think his system has some flaws in the red zone. So IMO, he'll never have a top offense with this system.

eriadoc
11-20-2013, 01:37 PM
A few weeks ago you Case knockers said he can't throw the deep ball ... now you're trying to say that's all he can throw.

I find that amusing as well.

foo82
11-20-2013, 01:43 PM
After watching a few games on the all-22, I did notice a few things. I'm not anywhere close to being an expert, but...

1. Ben Tate is a horrible blocker.

2. Case has a tendency to hold the ball too late to wait for certain plays to develop. There were a few times in which all he had was the check down, but opted to keep looking down field instead which eventually lead to sacks. This one is difficult b/c we often criticize Schaub too much for dumping the passes off.

3. He has a tendency to roll out rather than step up into the pocket. There was one play where Case evaded pressure and threw the ball away. Tate picked up the block from the middle and was pretty much pushed back. Case could have made some positive yards with his leg if he darted forward and to the right of Tate since Tate was blocking left. Instead Case, rolled out left.

Hervoyel
11-20-2013, 02:00 PM
After watching a few games on the all-22, I did notice a few things. I'm not anywhere close to being an expert, but...

1. Ben Tate is a horrible blocker.

2. Case has a tendency to hold the ball too late to wait for certain plays to develop. There were a few times in which all he had was the check down, but opted to keep looking down field instead which eventually lead to sacks. This one is difficult b/c we often criticize Schaub too much for dumping the passes off.

3. He has a tendency to roll out rather than step up into the pocket. There was one play where Case evaded pressure and threw the ball away. Tate picked up the block from the middle and was pretty much pushed back. Case could have made some positive yards with his leg if he darted forward and to the right of Tate since Tate was blocking left. Instead Case, rolled out left.

1. Indeed. He's even worse when he's hurting.

2. Indeed again. The Texans need to make him understand that just because they don't want him to be Matt Schaub in the check-down department they also don't need the second coming of Rob Johnson holding on to the ball forever. There's a sweet spot in between that he should be aiming for.

3. I think if he can get a few more games under his belt (assuming he is capable of what many of us hope he can be) then the game will slow down a little for him and he'll start making better decisions where this is concerned. The boy needs some experience so he can learn "when to hold em' and when to fold em'"

Double Barrel
11-20-2013, 02:10 PM
After watching a few games on the all-22, I did notice a few things. I'm not anywhere close to being an expert, but...

1. Ben Tate is a horrible blocker.

2. Case has a tendency to hold the ball too late to wait for certain plays to develop. There were a few times in which all he had was the check down, but opted to keep looking down field instead which eventually lead to sacks. This one is difficult b/c we often criticize Schaub too much for dumping the passes off.

3. He has a tendency to roll out rather than step up into the pocket. There was one play where Case evaded pressure and threw the ball away. Tate picked up the block from the middle and was pretty much pushed back. Case could have made some positive yards with his leg if he darted forward and to the right of Tate since Tate was blocking left. Instead Case, rolled out left.

Great points in analysis.

I noticed the tendency to roll instead of step up into the pocket, as well. Not sure if it's a lack of trust in the blockers or if it's just inexperience with pocket management, but it is certainly something to be curious about. When pressure comes from the around the tackles, most experienced QBs step up to pass or take advantage of the hole for some positive yardage with their feet.

I'm not criticizing the guy. Just observations as a fan. Kid has a lot of potential, but he will have to learn some of the basic fundamentals of managing a pro offense to have a multi-dimensional skillset.

CloakNNNdagger
11-20-2013, 02:18 PM
Great points in analysis.

I noticed the tendency to roll instead of step up into the pocket, as well. Not sure if it's a lack of trust in the blockers or if it's just inexperience with pocket management, but it is certainly something to be curious about. When pressure comes from the around the tackles, most experienced QBs step up to pass or take advantage of the hole for some positive yardage with their feet.

I'm not criticizing the guy. Just observations as a fan. Kid has a lot of potential, but he will have to learn some of the basic fundamentals of managing a pro offense to have a multi-dimensional skillset.

That's hard to put into your head when so many of the blitzes came from inside the tackles..........many of those, straight up the middle.

Uncle Rico
11-20-2013, 03:02 PM
Let me start off by saying that I have always said Kubiak is a good offensive coordinator. I've defended him on the Xs and Os side of things, as well as his QB work. But let's not buy into this top offense crap. His systems tend to put up a lot of yardage, but scoring lags behind. I don't care one bit about yardage. Not counting '06, because that was a shambles of a team, here is what we're looking at:

'07: 333.6 ypg (14th), 23.7 ppg (12th). League lead was 36.8 ppg.
'08: 382.1 ypg (3rd), 22.9 ppg (17th). League lead was 28.9 ppg.
'09: 383.1 ypg (4th), 24.3 ppg (10th). League lead was 31.9 ppg.
'10: 386.6 ypg (3rd), 24.4 ppg (9th). League lead was 32.4 ppg.
'11: 372.1 ypg (13th), 23.8 ppg (10th). League lead was 35.0 ppg.
'12: 372.1 ypg (7th), 26.0 ppg (8th). League lead was 34.8 ppg.
'13: 378.0 ypg (10th), 19.3 ppg (27th). League lead is 39.8 (then 28.8 for #2).

So they've never had a truly top scoring offense, which is all that really matters, and scoring has almost always lagged yardage. Even in a dysfunctional season like this, the offense is putting up 378 yards per game. So yardage doesn't impress me. As much as I think highly of Kubiak as a play designer, I think his system has some flaws in the red zone. So IMO, he'll never have a top offense with this system.

Does a top scoring offense ensure a championship? I'm too lazy to do the digging especially on my phone but I wonder where, say the last 5 champs ranked in scoring offense.

eriadoc
11-20-2013, 03:09 PM
Does a top scoring offense ensure a championship? I'm too lazy to do the digging especially on my phone but I wonder where, say the last 5 champs ranked in scoring offense.

Point differential would probably matter more, but I'm not looking it up either. At the end of the day, turnovers and TDs matter way, way more than yardage. I'm not interested in yardage, especially when Kubiak's offenses have been so prolific in yardage while lagging behind in scoring.

On the other side of that, the Texans have the #1 defense in the league, in terms of yardage. We all know that's a BS stat, since they're 28th in giving up points and more than twice as bad as the #1 team.

Vinnie
11-20-2013, 03:18 PM
Completely unrelated, but I've been listening to A Game of Thrones in my truck for the last three days and now when I read yalls posts it has an English accent in my head. FML

Runner
11-20-2013, 03:19 PM
Offense/Defense/Super Bowls

Here is some data.

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/2/20/4007322/high-powered-offenses-stingy-defenses-super-bowl-champions-rank-patriots-saints-giants-steelers-nfl

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-09-05/super-bowl-2012-defense-wins-championships-49ers-stats-picks

eriadoc
11-20-2013, 03:20 PM
Completely unrelated, but I've been listening to A Game of Thrones in my truck for the last three days and now when I read yalls posts it has an English accent in my head. FML

Mine should be read with an Irish accent and/or translated on the fly into Gaelic.

amazing80
11-20-2013, 03:23 PM
Does a top scoring offense ensure a championship? I'm too lazy to do the digging especially on my phone but I wonder where, say the last 5 champs ranked in scoring offense.

ive got a broken arm and nothing but time at home all alone lol...here are the stats for the last 5 winners

ravens - 10th ppg/16th ypg
giants - 9th ppg/8th ypg
packers 10th ppg/9th ypg
saints - 1st ppg/1st ypg
steelers - 20th ppg/22nd ypg

Double Barrel
11-20-2013, 03:26 PM
That's hard to put into your head when so many of the blitzes came from inside the tackles..........many of those, straight up the middle.

Very true. The pressure up the middle is a problem for any QB, even the great ones with lots of experience. I do not get why the line has been so abysmal this season. Reminds me of Carr running for his life to the point of feeling phantom pressure and self-sacking himself.

Rey
11-20-2013, 03:44 PM
Case needs to watch brees operate in the pocket. Not that he can be brees, but brees is a shorter guy who is good at finding lanes to step up into to see down field.

But really some if this stuff comes with team repetition to build trust. And also to build familiarity.

Really good qb's don't have to see all the routes. They don't have to wait til a guy is open to throw it.

Some things you're just not going to see from case. Just like any young qb, it takes a certain amount of faith to assume a qb is going to progress. Case is in a really difficult spot right now where he almost has to be superhuman (or hope a bunch of things go exactly right) for him to be a consideration next season as the starter.

Hervoyel
11-20-2013, 04:38 PM
Completely unrelated, but I've been listening to A Game of Thrones in my truck for the last three days and now when I read yalls posts it has an English accent in my head. FML

I imagine Thorn's posts to have a sort of "Foster Brooks" slur to them.

Other than that I don't get much of that stuff. The people I've met, I hear their voices. Otherwise it all just kind of drones on.

Oh yeah, Norg I read like Alex Karras in Blazing Saddles. Now that I think about it Dread Head's posts I sometimes read/hear in Cleavon Little's voice also from Blazing Saddles.

But that's it..... I think.

Uncle Rico
11-20-2013, 04:43 PM
ive got a broken arm and nothing but time at home all alone lol...here are the stats for the last 5 winners

ravens - 10th ppg/16th ypg
giants - 9th ppg/8th ypg
packers 10th ppg/9th ypg
saints - 1st ppg/1st ypg
steelers - 20th ppg/22nd ypg

Hmmm. So then the old adage still holds true. Defense wins championships.

JB
11-20-2013, 04:45 PM
Hmmm. So then the old adage still holds true. Defense wins championships.


Low points allowed defense maybe, certainly not low yardage allowed defense

Uncle Rico
11-20-2013, 04:55 PM
Low points allowed defense maybe, certainly not low yardage allowed defense

Lol, touché.

amazing80
11-20-2013, 06:13 PM
Hmmm. So then the old adage still holds true. Defense wins championships.

to be honest, i think its about getting hot at the right time.....getting your defense to be lock down while your offense starts to get hot.....

Rey
11-20-2013, 09:43 PM
Just saw this little deal with Keenum on csn waiting for the rockets to come on and I was pleased to see that he recognized the faults in his game. Not the generic stuff...he actually realizes that he has to step up in the pocket more and trust that the blocking will be there. He understands that he's leaving too early sometimes.

TexansSeminole
11-20-2013, 09:52 PM
Just saw this little deal with Keenum on csn waiting for the rockets to come on and I was pleased to see that he recognized the faults in his game. Not the generic stuff...he actually realizes that he has to step up in the pocket more and trust that the blocking will be there. He understands that he's leaving too early sometimes.

That's good news. I like Keenum, I hope it works out with him. He's got everything he needs: good arm, good feet. He just needs to soak up as much as he can and keep working hard. We'll see how far he can come by the end of the season.

CloakNNNdagger
11-20-2013, 10:44 PM
Just saw this little deal with Keenum on csn waiting for the rockets to come on and I was pleased to see that he recognized the faults in his game. Not the generic stuff...he actually realizes that he has to step up in the pocket more and trust that the blocking will be there. He understands that he's leaving too early sometimes.

But to step into the pocket he can't be continually barraged with up the middle blitzes with no protection like he's had to sustain during the past few games.

Some comments by Case and Kubiak that may make for some positive changes.


Keenum’s clearly had some ‘wow’ moments. But those moments have all happened in losses by the Texans, and the second-year signal caller is trying to work on a few things, like staying in the pocket longer when defenses dial up a blitz.

“I think I can do a better job of trusting when those pressures that they are going to be picked up and recognizing that we have the right protection called and to the right pressure,” Keenum said Wednesday. “And still be able to stay in the pocket and knowing I don’t have to drift, I don’t have to move.”

Some of Keenum’s best throws have come after he’s scrambled to avoid a sack. His lone touchdown pass in Sunday’s loss to Oakland is a perfect example. After running to his right and gathering himself just in bounds, he connected with tight end Garrett Graham for a 42-yard scoring strike.

But on 3rd-and-12 at the Raiders’ 25-yard line in the first quarter, he was dropped for a 15-yard loss when Lamarr Houston finally corralled him. It took the Texans out of field goal range, and Keenum said he knows he can’t make mistakes like that again.

“I can make a better throw on a deeper route on time rather than trying to escape and get out of there, and totally have a busted play, if you will,” Keenum said.

Still, head coach Gary Kubiak doesn’t want to shackle an aspect of Keenum’s game that has been to the Texans’ benefit.

“You don’t want to ever take away his ability to make plays,” Kubiak said. “I want him to react and do those type of things.”

Through the first four starts, Keenum has 992 passing yards, and has completed 70-of-126 attempts. The notion that Keenum has ‘happy feet’ and is unwilling to be a pocket passer doesn’t fly with Jacksonville head coach Gus Bradley, who spoke with the Houston media via a Wednesday conference call.

“I think he does a really good job of staying in the pocket,” Bradley said. “But, I think what stands out to us is he’ll improvise.”

Bradley also mentioned how impressed he’s been by Keenum’s “good poise”, and the “sense of spirit” the former Houston Cougar has infused the team with during his short time as a starter.

Because Keenum has shown a willingness to scramble and throw outside of the pocket, his offensive line has had to adjust. But left guard Wade Smith said that’s a good thing.

“When he’s making plays,you’re not going to do much complaining,” Smith said. “I think you realize as an offensive linemen, you have to protect a little bit longer and maybe at different angles than you might normally because he’ll extend plays and he’ll run around a little bit more.”

The term “gunslinger” has been used, at times, to describe Keenum. And Kubiak said that’s an aspect of his game shared by some of the NFL’s greats.

“Those good ones do,” Kubiak said. “So I think that’s what gives him a chance, an excellent chance to be a good player in this league.”

Keenum doesn’t mind the moniker either, as long it’s in the positive “John Wayne-type” sense of the word. While he’s aiming to spend a little more time in the pocket, and negate the blitzes that have sometimes gotten to him, he’s still going to stick with what’s worked.

“I’m coming out slinging it to be perfectly honest,” Keenum said. “I’ve got nothing to lose. That’s been my mindset for a long time and it’s the way I am.”
link (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/The-Gunslinger-Case-Keenum-aiming-more-for-pocket/3d5cf965-1cd2-4b77-9e87-b33c95ffbb88)

CloakNNNdagger
11-20-2013, 10:48 PM
Kubiak:

(on how much QB Case Keenum liking to move out of the pocket is a challenge for the offensive line) “Yeah, it might be a little bit different because he moves a lot more obviously than Matt (Schaub) does, so it might be a little bit different from that standpoint. But as far as what we’re doing, what we’re calling, we haven’t invented the wheel with Case other than putting him back there in the pistol and doing a lot of work form there. A lot of the concepts we’re doing the same. I wouldn’t say that that is that big of a factor.”

(on QB Case Keenum still learning a lot about being a starter) “Yeah, there’s a great deal to learn. It’s every week. It’s funny, when you play a young guy like that, it’s interesting to me going through it for years, usually, initially, the first wave of some really good stuff and then it’s like the more you get going, the more football they play, the more people watch them. Now, the growth process really starts and I think that’s kind of going on with him right now. But he’s responded. Like practice and game plans, he’s what now five weeks into the game plans, I’m the guy, I’m playing, I’ve got to study my tail off. So, so many things are happening for him becoming a starter right now, off the field as well as on the field.”

(on if QB Case Keenum needs to get more comfortable staying in the pocket) “Well, you don’t want to ever take away his ability to make plays. I want him to react and do those types of things. There’s some time I think that he’s looking at things saying, ‘There was no reason for me to leave there and those type of things.’ But at the same time, the reason he’s making those plays and has been effective and done the things he’s things is because he’s got some of that gunslinger in him, and those good ones do. So I think that’s what gives him a chance, an excellent chance to be a good player in this league.”

thunderkyss
11-21-2013, 07:39 AM
It ain't working out! Oddly, this was easily his most talented offense in his eight years, at least in regards to having weapons in multiple positions... And, as bad as the line has played, we would have killed for this group through 2008... There is no clear explanation why this has happened. The snowball effect is in full gear, though, so he will have to exit the organization wondering what the heck happened.

Unless there was too much tearing the team apart from within. Ed Reed & the rookies; Montgomery, Wood? Wade may not have been totally invested because of his dad's health issues. Then Schaub trying to "be the guy" while Case was kissing all the girls.

Not to absolve Kubiak/Schaub of anything. They should have been able to manage this locker room. Too many good guys, too many leaders not to.

thunderkyss
11-21-2013, 07:46 AM
Exactly, and for those of you who say Case can't find the short middle routes never watched him in college....

Guess where Case isn't now.

I'll give you a hint... it's not the preseason either.

thunderkyss
11-21-2013, 07:58 AM
Kubiak:
(on if QB Case Keenum needs to get more comfortable staying in the pocket) “Well, you don’t want to ever take away his ability to make plays. I want him to react and do those types of things. There’s some time I think that he’s looking at things saying, ‘There was no reason for me to leave there and those type of things.’ But at the same time, the reason he’s making those plays and has been effective and done the things he’s things is because he’s got some of that gunslinger in him, and those good ones do. So I think that’s what gives him a chance, an excellent chance to be a good player in this league.”


I'd love to see them move the pocket for Case. If they fake the run to the right, instead of the bootleg, where Case has to turn all the way around, taking his eyes off the defense, he should just keep moving right, set his feet, & scan the defense.

OzzO
11-21-2013, 08:09 AM
Guess where Case isn't now.

I'll give you a hint... it's not the preseason either.

The bench?

76Texan
11-21-2013, 07:22 PM
People act like this is new. Case as ive said has limitstiond on the type of routes that can be performed. He also hss been trying to mske everything a big play. His inability to see ovrr the pressure in his face has been bad. Hes s young guy and I prefer to evaluate him to see if hes a backup or just a placeholder till they get the right qb.

That's 1 play bud...1 play that was hardly in traffic...1 play that he also was in the shotgun in....1 play that he also ran a trillion times at U of H.

Why didn't you pull up the numerous near picks and pass break ups he had trying to throw over the middle in the AZ game? Or the short armed pass to AJ last week?
I'm laughing so hard.
Thanks for the entertainment, guys.

SAMURAITEXAN
11-21-2013, 07:38 PM
We are 2-8 which is disappointing season however, this will be a good time for Case to get an experience he needs to be a potential starter for the future. So, give him some time and find out what really he can do for us. I like his long pass, quick release, mobile capability which is much exciting than Matt's game.

Go Texans!!!

76Texan
11-21-2013, 07:43 PM
That's what I said. Problem is he can't bring himself to not try and mold Case into another one of his guys. Instead of doing what Case does well and building an offense around it he's back to that same old square peg - round hole mentality that is his Achilles heel.

Ding ding ding.

Those who followed Keenum at UH know that he can run an up-tempo offense like there's no tomorrow.
The coaches had to slow it down because the defense can't keep up (due to lack of depth.)

He beat blitzes all the time.
It doesn't matter.
You can send the house or you can drop nine.

But, there has to be plays to make it work.
You can't bang your head against the wall.
All this talk about Keenum not being able to recognize blitzes made me laugh so hard.

Yes, he did miss a hot here and there;
I still remember how Schaub was so bad that he got sacked right off the bat th first couple of years he was here.

But, that's fine.
Some people are holding Keenum to a high standard.
All good.

The funny thing about Leebigz, for example, is that he treats Geno Smith differently. He tells me "but Geno did a few things well, can't you see it?"

In the meantime, Smith continues to err at a rocket rate.

But Geno has the potential to be a franchise QB, and Keenum is not the future.

I've never laughed so hard, LOL , LOL.

76Texan
11-21-2013, 07:55 PM
It ain't working out! Oddly, this was easily his most talented offense in his eight years, at least in regards to having weapons in multiple positions... And, as bad as the line has played, we would have killed for this group through 2008... There is no clear explanation why this has happened. The snowball effect is in full gear, though, so he will have to exit the organization wondering what the heck happened.

To me, Kubiak does evolve in his scheme.
The problem is when he's going away from the ZBS, some (as in many) of his linemen aren't up to the task.

Take the double dual concept for example.
It requires a guard to be able to block two pass rushers on one play.
He has an aging Wade Smith with chronic knee problem.
He has BB, who's quick for a guy his size, but not quick and agile enough to be able to perform the task with consistency.

Now, if he has a mobile Schaub or an experienced Keenum, I would have no squabble. He has neither.

In a rush to evolve, the coaching staff forgot about adaptability.
They've been forcing a few too many square pegs through round holes.

76Texan
11-21-2013, 08:02 PM
I find that amusing as well.

Why I said in the game thread that it has been entertaining.
I'm not one to ridicule people, I just want to have fun with football, and so I'm enjoying it thoroughly.

76Texan
11-21-2013, 08:09 PM
Great points in analysis.

I noticed the tendency to roll instead of step up into the pocket, as well. Not sure if it's a lack of trust in the blockers or if it's just inexperience with pocket management, but it is certainly something to be curious about. When pressure comes from the around the tackles, most experienced QBs step up to pass or take advantage of the hole for some positive yardage with their feet.

I'm not criticizing the guy. Just observations as a fan. Kid has a lot of potential, but he will have to learn some of the basic fundamentals of managing a pro offense to have a multi-dimensional skillset.

What I see is a young QB trying too hard sometimes.
It's not that he doesn't trust his O-line, but he does try to put it upon himself too much, and he needs to learn from that.

On some plays, it was out of character of him.
Growing pain.

But it was the same for Luck last year.
I was saying I thought the Colts put too much on his plate.
This year, they reduced the load, and Luck is becoming a more proficient QB.

thunderkyss
11-21-2013, 09:44 PM
Ding ding ding.

Those who followed Keenum at UH know that he can run an up-tempo offense like there's no tomorrow..

If only we were in Conference USA...

eriadoc
11-21-2013, 10:15 PM
If only we were in Conference USA...

With the Jags and Texans in the division, we kind of are.

76Texan
11-21-2013, 11:55 PM
If only we were in Conference USA...

The fish ain't biting, LOL.

thunderkyss
11-22-2013, 12:08 AM
The fish ain't biting, LOL.

I remember when Vince & Tebow dominated legitimate football conferences.

steelbtexan
11-22-2013, 12:10 AM
How good do the fans on the MB expect Keenum to be after 4 games?

How good does the MB expect a rookie draft pick QB to be after 4 games?

76Texan
11-22-2013, 04:39 AM
I remember when Vince & Tebow dominated legitimate football conferences.

Fish still not biting, :)=P

Grams
11-22-2013, 06:52 AM
Football is nothing but entertainment.

Is Case entertaining to watch. Very much so.

We have nothing to lose with him in the game. But a lot to gain if he learns from his mistakes. He may or may not be the QB of the future. If he is, I just hope it is here and not on some other team.

Uncle Rico
11-22-2013, 08:28 AM
What Keenum did in a weak conference in college is irrelevant in the NFL where every player is an all conference type of guy and where the defenses are supremely more exotic.

For the Coogs out there I'm curious to know how he did against primetime programs. Admittedly I don't follow UH at all, but my vague recollection is that he never had a signature game against a top program, I could be wrong of course so don't go building a cross just yet.

speedfreek
11-22-2013, 09:09 AM
I posted this months back, but he had a better win percentage
against the SEC, B12, PAC12, B10 and ranked teams
than either Matt Schaub or TJ Yates.

He was also responsible for a ton of upset victories and
comeback wins with game winning last drives.

If we could get our o-line situation worked out -- or Gary
would spread the field with 1 or 2 back sets and go hurry-up I'm
pretty sure the same thing would happen with the Texans as well.

Aside from having to run for his life on almost every play he
looks almost exactly the same as he did in college (scanning
the field, avoiding pressure, etc..)

If people believe that Matt Schaub was a franchise QB back when
he first came here, then there's no reason to believe that
Keenum can't mature into that role either -- here or with another
team.

He is certainly off to a better start, numbers wise, and that is
with a team with key injuries to offense and defensive skills players

TJ

What Keenum did in a weak conference in college is irrelevant in the NFL where every player is an all conference type of guy and where the defenses are supremely more exotic.

For the Coogs out there I'm curious to know how he did against primetime programs. Admittedly I don't follow UH at all, but my vague recollection is that he never had a signature game against a top program, I could be wrong of course so don't go building a cross just yet.

Rey
11-22-2013, 10:05 AM
What Keenum did in a weak conference in college is irrelevant in the NFL where every player is an all conference type of guy and where the defenses are supremely more exotic.

That's a go to argument for people who aren't very good at evaluating players.

That's the same argument people used against Dontari Poe when he was coming out.

What they did is not irrelevant. Doesn't mean it will translate to nfl success, but you can most definitely look at what prospects do in lower levels of competition and form an opinion on whether certain skill sets/attributes will translate to nfl success.

badboy
11-22-2013, 10:45 AM
What Keenum did in a weak conference in college is irrelevant in the NFL where every player is an all conference type of guy and where the defenses are supremely more exotic.

For the Coogs out there I'm curious to know how he did against primetime programs. Admittedly I don't follow UH at all, but my vague recollection is that he never had a signature game against a top program, I could be wrong of course so don't go building a cross just yet.Come on, what any player does in college is important. You evaluate there skills, movements, ability to handle body weight, maturity and positional strengths/weaknesses like back pedal, laterals, push, verticals, hip rotation, first step, routes & coverage etc. Sure you take into consideration who they play but that is a useful tool also. Does the player dominate the weaker opponent and step up against the greater guy? Does he have good motor or coast? If you follow college ball at all these are discuss annually as folks are this year with Clowney.

Uncle Rico
11-22-2013, 11:14 AM
That's a go to argument for people who aren't very good at evaluating players.

That's the same argument people used against Dontari Poe when he was coming out.

What they did is not irrelevant. Doesn't mean it will translate to nfl success, but you can most definitely look at what prospects do in lower levels of competition and form an opinion on whether certain skill sets/attributes will translate to nfl success.

I didn't know you were a talent scout bro, you're right I'm just a dumb fan who wouldn't know his hand from his *******, but thanks for the education.

Interestingly I brought it up because that same logic was used against me when "evaluating" or should I say stupidly analyzing the merits of Manziel in the SEC and Mariota in the PA

In the end an undrafted guy is just that, will make an awesome movie one day.

Wasn't Poe a top 10 pick? Did Keenum even go to the combine?

Uncle Rico
11-22-2013, 11:19 AM
Come on, what any player does in college is important. You evaluate there skills, movements, ability to handle body weight, maturity and positional strengths/weaknesses like back pedal, laterals, push, verticals, hip rotation, first step, routes & coverage etc. Sure you take into consideration who they play but that is a useful tool also. Does the player dominate the weaker opponent and step up against the greater guy? Does he have good motor or coast? If you follow college ball at all these are discuss annually as folks are this year with Clowney.

Very good points. So why did every single team pass on Case? I feel if it wasn't for the home team connection he's playing in Canada or the arena league.

Before it turns into a flame war I'm not trying to be caustic just pointing out some very basic things.

Uncle Rico
11-22-2013, 11:24 AM
I posted this months back, but he had a better win percentage
against the SEC, B12, PAC12, B10 and ranked teams
than either Matt Schaub or TJ Yates.

He was also responsible for a ton of upset victories and
comeback wins with game winning last drives.

If we could get our o-line situation worked out -- or Gary
would spread the field with 1 or 2 back sets and go hurry-up I'm
pretty sure the same thing would happen with the Texans as well.

Aside from having to run for his life on almost every play he
looks almost exactly the same as he did in college (scanning
the field, avoiding pressure, etc..)

If people believe that Matt Schaub was a franchise QB back when
he first came here, then there's no reason to believe that
Keenum can't mature into that role either -- here or with another
team.

He is certainly off to a better start, numbers wise, and that is
with a team with key injuries to offense and defensive skills players

TJ

Signature game(s)? Alabama, LSU, Ohio St, The U?

I'm not so interested that ill do the digging maybe you have this stuff off the top of your head.

Schaub had success at the NFL level when Vick would go down, that's where his market was established not in college.

HOU-TEX
11-22-2013, 11:30 AM
I didn't know you were a talent scout bro, you're right I'm just a dumb fan who wouldn't know his hand from his *******, but thanks for the education.

Interestingly I brought it up because that same logic was used against me when "evaluating" or should I say stupidly analyzing the merits of Manziel in the SEC and Mariota in the PA

In the end an undrafted guy is just that, will make an awesome movie one day.

Wasn't Poe a top 10 pick? Did Keenum even go to the combine?

Yes

Vinny
11-22-2013, 11:50 AM
Wasn't Poe a top 10 pick? Did Keenum even go to the combine?

Yes
yep, but he was injured, so that really hurt his draft stock.

HOU-TEX
11-22-2013, 11:53 AM
yep, but he was injured, so that really hurt his draft stock.

Yup. I think him trying to do things while injured hurt him the most

I'm not saying he would've been drafted otherwise, I'm just saying

TejasTom
11-22-2013, 12:37 PM
Very good points. So why did every single team pass on Case? I feel if it wasn't for the home team connection he's playing in Canada or the arena league.

Before it turns into a flame war I'm not trying to be caustic just pointing out some very basic things.

I don't know about other teams.

Rick Smith has been asked about this. His answer was that Case didn't meet "Positional Parameters; Height, Weight, etc." Based on these statements he would not have drafted Russell Wilson. He will not draft Johnny Manziel.
Meanwhile, Sam Montgomery did meet "Positional Parameters".

Just another example of the institutional ineptitude.

thunderkyss
11-23-2013, 01:42 AM
Come on, what any player does in college is important. You evaluate there skills, movements, ability to handle body weight, maturity and positional strengths/weaknesses like back pedal, laterals, push, verticals, hip rotation, first step, routes & coverage etc. Sure you take into consideration who they play but that is a useful tool also. Does the player dominate the weaker opponent and step up against the greater guy? Does he have good motor or coast? If you follow college ball at all these are discuss annually as folks are this year with Clowney.

I can't imagine Graham Harrell didn't "look good" doing all of that in the Big 12. I believe Timmy Chang did as well. There's no guarantee how that player (Ryan Leaf) will translate to the NFL (Steve McNair) until he straps on the pads & take some snaps.

Case Keenum looked great playing for UH, just like Andre Ware did. But he looked better against KC than he did against Oakland. & this was with a better running game than he had in KC.

I like the kid. I think he has all the tools & the talent. But I think we're going to David Carr him... at least that's the way it looks right now. I honestly don't think our coach is helping him enough. But for what he's being asked to do right now, I think Oakland was a step back.

I hope, I pray, my fingers are crossed, & I'll be rooting for Jacksonville to be a step forward.

tvaughan
11-23-2013, 05:55 AM
This is the Tebow effect. The more enthusiastic some people are for a player, the more others will take strange pleasure bashing the guy.

It's his 4th start for a team that has been falling apart at the seams.

I can't take anyone seriously who thinks the jury is in.

thunderkyss
11-23-2013, 10:29 AM
I can't take anyone seriously who thinks the jury is in.

Me neither.

Nitrofish
12-07-2013, 12:44 PM
(Quote////) Do you really believe in 11 yrs and missing 3 games and traveling with the team once a y that I would EVER root for the Texans to lose? I hate losing, losing is for losers ans begats more losing. That's why I never root for the Texans to tank. But I do know a losing org when I see one and Rick/Gary are that. (Sorry)

BTW, where have you been, you must be busy, because since the Texans have been on this losing streak and you're boy Schaubie got benched you haven't been posting very much. It's hot in the kitchen right now and I predict it's going to get hotter before the season is over.

For the record I am working overseas, as well as run two radio stations, as well as maintain corporate computer networks for several companies, so I don't always have time to argue with experts like you. More recently I have discovered that guys like you take the fun out of watching football, and discussing it with fellow fans here on this board, so I have just mostly been ignoring your posts. They are just the same old crap over and over again, and there is no point in trying to engage in a discussion with someone like you because you have all the answers and no interest in considering any other point of view.

Obviously you do not feel like the center of attention anymore since I have been skipping over whatever you post no matter how bad it is, and for that I am sorry. I did not mean to take away your outlet. I know how important it is for narcissists like yourself to get your daily dose of self worth, but I neither have the time or desire to keep feeding the trolls for the sake of boosting their egos.

Don't worry though. I am sure you will find someone else to attach yourself to soon enough, or possibly already have.