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76Texan
11-14-2013, 10:50 AM
I just want to start this thread to begin looking at the cap situation for next year.

I don't like the rumors that have been flying around.

It doesn't look to me like we're screwed.

At the moment, we have some 700K in cap space available; all the new signings from Starling to DJ etc. have already been accounted for.

That money can be carry-over to next year.

All the dead money currently in the book, including money spent on Ed Reed, Dobbins, Walter, etc. will be gone, giving the Texans nearly another $7.5M to work with.

That's a total of $8.2M before considering Schaub's figure.

Dutchrudder
11-14-2013, 11:18 AM
Go here for 2014 Texans Cap info: http://www.overthecap.com/teamcap.php?Team=Texans&Year=2014

115.245m on the books for next year, 3.214m in dead money. 118.459 total spending expected. If the cap is 123m + 700k in rollover, then we have 5.241m in space before we start cutting people. So start there and say we cut some of these folks for some cap savings:

Schaub 4m
O Daniels 4.5m
D Manning 4.5m
J Joseph 3.75m

That's 16.75m in savings, plus the estimated space above = 21.991m in cap space. But now you need a starting QB, TE, FS and CB, along with the other major needs on this team, NT, OLB, ILB, RT... Yeah, it looks like we are kinda screwed right now. Even if we do get 3 compensatory picks like I think, we can't fill all those holes in the draft. It will take a couple years to rebuild, and by that time we will need to replace AJ too.

You also have to consider our pending Unrestricted Free Agent list:

Antonio Smith
Wade Smith
Joe Mays
Greg Jones
Ryan Harris
Ben Tate
Elbert Mack
Earl Mitchell
Darryl Sharpton
Garrett Graham

22m ain't gonna cut it.

amazing80
11-14-2013, 11:18 AM
I just want to start this thread to begin looking at the cap situation for next year.

I don't like the rumors that have been flying around.

It doesn't look to me like we're screwed.

At the moment, we have some 700K in cap space available; all the new signings from Starling to DJ etc. have already been accounted for.

That money can be carry-over to next year.

All the dead money currently in the book, including money spent on Ed Reed, Dobbins, Walter, etc. will be gone, giving the Texans nearly another $7.5M to work with.

That's a total of $8.2M before considering Schaub's figure.


not to mention if we can re sign and lower smiths and ods salary.

amazing80
11-14-2013, 11:20 AM
Go here for 2014 Texans Cap info: http://www.overthecap.com/teamcap.php?Team=Texans&Year=2014

115.245m on the books for next year, 3.214m in dead money. 118.459 total spending expected. If the cap is 123m + 700k in rollover, then we have 5.241m in space before we start cutting people. So start there and say we cut some of these folks for some cap savings:

Schaub 4m
O Daniels 4.5m
D Manning 4.5m
J Joseph 3.75m

That's 16.75m in savings, plus the estimated space above = 21.991m in cap space. But now you need a starting QB, TE, FS and CB, along with the other major needs on this team, NT, OLB, ILB, RT... Yeah, it looks like we are kinda screwed right now. Even if we do get 3 compensatory picks like I think, we can't fill all those holes in the draft. It will take a couple years to rebuild, and by that time we will need to replace AJ too.

no way we cut od, manning and jjo. thats just stupid. MAYBE we try to restructure but we wont just cut them

76Texan
11-14-2013, 11:59 AM
Let's say we cut Schaub, and spread the dead money over 3 years with the June 1st designation; his cap space of 14.5 is replaced by 3.5 in dead money on 2014.

That adds $11M to the $5M plus that we have available.

Without Schaub, and not cutting anybody else, we have 45 active contracts.

A replacement for Ninja should cost between $4-6M.
W. Smith will have to be replaced by either Jones or Quizz.
R. Harris will have to be replaced by either T. Williams or a draft pick.
Even if we resign him, it only cost some .7
Either resign Joe Mays at 1.1 or Sharpton at .7 and replace the other by a draft pick.
Either resign G. jones at $1 or replace him with a minimum guy like Zac Boren or a low draft pick.
Resign Mitchell at 1

Graham will probably take twice the money he's getting now.
They can let the 1.5 on the book or defer some with signing bonus.

Braman and McClain can be resigned for .65
Mitchell will probably take $1M
They can opt to let McClain go and replace him with a low draft pick that plays only in running down, a space eater if you will.

Jean is replaced by either Lemon or Cruse or Bonner.

Guys like Gardner, Mack, Karim, Mohamed and Tarpinian can be resigned for cheap.

76Texan
11-14-2013, 12:01 PM
Tate is gone.

Karim and Graham can compete with a draft pick for the number 2 job.

Brisco_County
11-14-2013, 12:01 PM
I expect Jonathan Jospeh to re-sign at a significantly reduced rate.

I think the current goal is to prepare for JJ Watt's contract.

Texian
11-14-2013, 12:03 PM
All the dead money currently in the book, including money spent on Ed Reed, Dobbins, Walter, etc. will be gone, giving the Texans nearly another $7.5M to work with.

That's a total of $8.2M before considering Schaub's figure.

Let's keep in perspective what we know now. The $8 mil figure is in the ballpark according to two of the better salary cap sites.

Currently the the Texans have 45 players under contract to begin the 2014 season. Absent of those 45 contracts are the 18 free agents of which at least 8 were starters in 2013.

Subtract approx. $1 million for the practice squad and other likely incentives and that leaves approx. $7 million to sign the 8 player contracts needed to complete the 53 man roster. That leaves you approx $875K available per contract.

Also note: 2/3rds of the 2013 DL is gone. 1/2 of the ILBs are gone. Daniels returning from 2nd major injury on backside of career and Graham is FA. No FB, Foster is having back surgery and Tate is a FA and no equivalent replacement for Wade Smith.

76Texan
11-14-2013, 12:11 PM
Even resiging Ninja at $6 per annum, we can always defer some of the bonus money.

Resigning most of the top veterans, except W.Smith will cost altogether less than the money available (and we will have more than 53 on the roster.)

These guys will compete with the new draft picks for their job.
Assuming, six rookies will stick, their total cap for the first year comes up to about $6M, but they will displace the guys that we've been mentioning.

Six of these guys plus Ninja already add up to 53 active contracts.
(Not counting any FAs that might be resign.)
The total of $12M ($6+6) is $4M under the $16M or so that we have available.

76Texan
11-14-2013, 12:15 PM
I expect Jonathan Jospeh to re-sign at a significantly reduced rate.

I think the current goal is to prepare for JJ Watt's contract.

By the time we need to reup Watt, I expect either and/or Manning and J Jo gone, as well as OD and McCain.
Foster might be gone in 2015, too.

Hervoyel
11-14-2013, 12:16 PM
Go here for 2014 Texans Cap info: http://www.overthecap.com/teamcap.php?Team=Texans&Year=2014

115.245m on the books for next year, 3.214m in dead money. 118.459 total spending expected. If the cap is 123m + 700k in rollover, then we have 5.241m in space before we start cutting people. So start there and say we cut some of these folks for some cap savings:

Schaub 4m
O Daniels 4.5m
D Manning 4.5m
J Joseph 3.75m

That's 16.75m in savings, plus the estimated space above = 21.991m in cap space. But now you need a starting QB, TE, FS and CB, along with the other major needs on this team, NT, OLB, ILB, RT... Yeah, it looks like we are kinda screwed right now. Even if we do get 3 compensatory picks like I think, we can't fill all those holes in the draft. It will take a couple years to rebuild, and by that time we will need to replace AJ too.

You also have to consider our pending Unrestricted Free Agent list:

Antonio Smith
Wade Smith
Joe Mays
Greg Jones
Ryan Harris
Ben Tate
Elbert Mack
Earl Mitchell
Darryl Sharpton
Garrett Graham

22m ain't gonna cut it.

See, I don't think we cut Manning & Joseph. I keep the two of them and so my additional cap savings drops to 8.5 million. Now I only need a QB and a TE in addition to my other needs (NT, ILB, OLB, and RT).

Thing is, my starting TE is Graham (UFA time) and Griffin moves up. I draft another TE who starts out competing with Griffin. Hell I'm the Texans so I draft a couple of them. My starting QB is Keenum and I draft another one to probably push past Yates as the 2. He'll hopefully push Keenum (Something Yates did not do to Schaub).

Now on to the UFA list (Damn that's a big one)

Antonio Smith - Let him go if he gets a big offer. The "Ninja" bit is wearing thin anyway.

Wade Smith - Let him go. It's time one of those young men we keep hearing so much good about steps up.

Joe Mays - bring him back if he's interested in a reasonable contract. If not he's replaceable for not much money.

Greg Jones - Find another FB. They're everywhere and it's not like he accomplished much this year.

Ryan Harris - Keep him. He's the swing tackle and he should have been starting all of this season.

Ben Tate - Let him go if someone is willing to pay the big bucks for him. If they aren't then he won't be that expensive to bring back. The Texans can always find backs.

Elbert Mack - Who?

Earl Mitchell - Draft a NT to replace him and let him go if it's going to cost too much.

Darryl Sharpton - Just make it stop. Send him on his way.

Garrett Graham - Bring him back for less than what it would cost to pay Daniels but more than he's making now. I don't see him being offered any kind of amazing salary.

So, I just sent a DE, LG, FB, RB, CB, NT, and another ILB out the door. We're going to need those compensatory picks!

Honestly though I don't think Mitchell is going anywhere and I even kind of wonder if Ben Tate is going to be all that hot an item after his injury history. The man is broken an awful lot of the time.

I think we can draft to fill some of that, pick up UDFA's to fill most of the rest, and then maybe sign an affordable FA or two ourselves to wrap it all up. Youre right though that we can't fix it all in one off season. Never happen. We can get the wheels back on this thing though if we draft well and catch a break with a couple of our own FA's.

Brisiel is looking like he'll be a FA and might come home. He's reportedly not doing well in Oakland since they ditched the zone blocking scheme.

Exascor
11-14-2013, 12:24 PM
Let's say we cut Schaub, and spread the dead money over 3 years with the June 1st designation; his cap space of 14.5 is replaced by 3.5 in dead money on 2014.Just to clarify the June 1st designation - it allows you to take 1 year prorated bonus into the current year's cap putting off the rest to the next season's cap. In Schaub's case, that is 3.5 in 2014 and 7.0 in 2015. You can't spread over 3 years.

My personal opinion is we need to eat all of the bad contracts in 2014. Screw creating more "debt" in 2015. We will not be competing for a Superbowl next season anyways - why not clear room for Watt's contract and have enough to sign a few FAs to plug holes?

This team IS cap strapped. It may be slowly correcting itself but if you HAVE to cut, restructure or extend contracts to resign/sign players then you are strapped. We have lost solid players to this in the past and our depth has turned to dust as a result. We haven't hit on enough draft picks to fill in the holes it's created and "poof" 2-7.

badboy
11-14-2013, 12:25 PM
Let's keep in perspective what we know now. The $8 mil figure is in the ballpark according to two of the better salary cap sites.

Currently the the Texans have 45 players under contract to begin the 2014 season. Absent of those 45 contracts are the 18 free agents of which at least 8 were starters in 2013.

Subtract approx. $1 million for the practice squad and other likely incentives and that leaves approx. $7 million to sign the 8 player contracts needed to complete the 53 man roster. That leaves you approx $875K available per contract.

Also note: 2/3rds of the 2013 DL is gone. 1/2 of the ILBs are gone. Daniels returning from 2nd major injury on backside of career and Graham is FA. No FB, Foster is having back surgery and Tate is a FA and no equivalent replacement for Wade Smith.To be fair almost all expect starters for NT and ILB to be drafted. Also Mays may remain in mix as I heard yesterday on radio that he was doing better. Players like Ninja and OD can be replaced by roster players Mitchell and Graham both can be re-signed cheap. Keenum replaces MS at huge savings with Yates remaining + late orund pick or UDFA.

infantrycak
11-14-2013, 12:25 PM
We stored several players on IR this year (who are on the cap) who are now familiar with the Texans and an NFL regime including Bonner, Bouye, Lemon, Quess and Williams X 2. We will get some depth and even a starter possibly in Quess.

Hervoyel
11-14-2013, 12:30 PM
I have a question and maybe this is stupid but has Mitchell ever played at DE? I ask because sometimes he seems like a real force but where he's at I think he's just too small and gets buried in there. If we could draft a beast in the middle and then Mitchell able to slide over would there be any point to that?

Just thinking out loud

Texian
11-14-2013, 12:32 PM
To be fair almost all expect starters for NT and ILB to be drafted. Also Mays may remain in mix as I heard yesterday on radio that he was doing better. Players like Ninja and OD can be replaced by roster players Mitchell and Graham both can be re-signed cheap. Keenum replaces MS at huge savings with Yates remaining + late orund pick or UDFA.

No player negotiating a contract does so with the intent of signing cheap. In the case of Mitchell and Graham, both starters with considerable amount of snaps will be able to sign contracts for considerably more than vet minimum. Teams with ample salary cap room will be happy to sign their experience.

Dutchrudder
11-14-2013, 12:33 PM
Schaub 4m
O Daniels 4.5m
D Manning 4.5m
J Joseph 3.75m

I never said we had to cut these guys, I would personally keep Joseph. Manning's status will depend on his recovery from injury. OD is just too expensive given his injury history. I'd cut him if he won't take a pay cut. I'd trade Schaub for a 7th if anyone would take him, otherwise just cut him.

The point is to show what cap casualties we have and some flexibility. You can attain more cap space in 2014 by making any of them June 1st cuts, which spreads out the caphit between 14 and 15. That kicks the can down the road a bit, and I'm not in favor of that, unless you think we have a shot at a championship next year, which I don't.

House of Pain
11-14-2013, 12:35 PM
Are we operating on the assumption that Kubes is still here? Some of these guys are only successful because of the system(s) we are running.

Texian
11-14-2013, 12:41 PM
I have a question and maybe this is stupid but has Mitchell ever played at DE? I ask because sometimes he seems like a real force but where he's at I think he's just too small and gets buried in there. If we could draft a beast in the middle and then Mitchell able to slide over would there be any point to that?

Just thinking out loud

Mitchell will be a FA and as a player who has started most of his career will not come cheap as many expect. His experience will afford him the opportunity to sign his next contract for something considerably more than the Vet minimum. So do you offer Mitchell a bigger respectable contract to be a 3 tech DE, a position he hasn't played with questions if he can excel? or does he become ineffective as a 3 tech like Sapp in Oakland? And a DE contract will also be considerably more than a DT contract.

76Texan
11-14-2013, 01:09 PM
Mitchell will be a FA and as a player who has started most of his career will not come cheap as many expect. His experience will afford him the opportunity to sign his next contract for something considerably more than the Vet minimum. So do you offer Mitchell a bigger respectable contract to be a 3 tech DE, a position he hasn't played with questions if he can excel? or does he become ineffective as a 3 tech like Sapp in Oakland? And a DE contract will also be considerably more than a DT contract.

Mitchell only started 3 games before this year.
He played just over half the defensive snaps this year.
He isn't going to cost much more than the veteran minimum.

About a dozen of these NT/DT type were drafted last year; two already became instant starters, two are spot starters, four or five could compete for the spot next year.

This coming class look to be equally deep.
That means more guys wil be kicked to the curb.

I ain't worry.
It's not like Mitchel has been striking fears into opponent QBs' heart. :lol:

Texian
11-14-2013, 01:37 PM
Mitchell only started 3 games before this year.
He played just over half the defensive snaps this year.
He isn't going to cost much more than the veteran minimum.

About a dozen of these NT/DT type were drafted last year; two already became instant starters, two are spot starters, four or five could compete for the spot next year.

This coming class look to be equally deep.
That means more guys wil be kicked to the curb.

I ain't worry.
It's not like Mitchel has been striking fears into opponent QBs' heart. :lol:

See what some 2013 DL FA signed for. Some backups received respectable contracts, much more than minimums. Rule of Thumb is it usually take DL rookies 2-3 years to learn the NFL game before becoming effective.

ChampionTexan
11-14-2013, 01:40 PM
no way we cut od, manning and jjo. thats just stupid. MAYBE we try to restructure but we wont just cut them

Keep in mind that if there's only one year left on the contract (which will be the case with both OD and Manning next season), the only way you can restructure the contract is via an out and out pay cut. That may or may not be possible depending on a number of things, not the least of which is the players ego (ie: what he thinks he's worth compared to what he'd actually get on the open market).

Throw in the fact that both players (OD & Manning) are coming off of significant injuries, and I don't see the thought of straight out releasing them far-fetched in the slightest.

76Texan
11-14-2013, 02:10 PM
See what some 2013 DL FA signed for. Some backups received respectable contracts, much more than minimums. Rule of Thumb is it usually take DL rookies 2-3 years to learn the NFL game before becoming effective.

Can you just show me so that I don't have to look it up.

What I know is that Chris Jones had taken over for Wilfork and played quite well.
Another rookie was John Jenkins who played well for the Saints.
These are besides the guys that were drafted higher.

76Texan
11-14-2013, 02:16 PM
As far as the TE group is concerned, Graham's production is nothing to write home about, especially in YPC.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticPositionCategory=TIGHT_END&season=2013&seasonType=REG&experience=&tabSeq=1&qualified=false&Submit=Go

And here's the list of FAs:
http://overthecap.com/freeagents.php?Position=TE&Year=2014

Fred Davis, for example, is unhappy with his situation in Washington, so he basically was there just for show.

Then you have guys like Dallas Clark, who works for cheap while Pitta was/is out for the Ravens.

Or a guy like Dustin Keller coming back, in the meanwhile, a youngster had risen up in his place and perform well for the Dolphins.
Somebody will pay top dollars for some of these guys, leaving not much left for the rest.

Texian
11-14-2013, 02:54 PM
Can you just show me so that I don't have to look it up.



http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/2013/defensive-tackle/

Texian
11-14-2013, 02:57 PM
As far as the TE group is concerned, Graham's production is nothing to write home about, especially in YPC.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticPositionCategory=TIGHT_END&season=2013&seasonType=REG&experience=&tabSeq=1&qualified=false&Submit=Go

And here's the list of FAs:
http://overthecap.com/freeagents.php?Position=TE&Year=2014

Fred Davis, for example, is unhappy with his situation in Washington, so he basically was there just for show.

Then you have guys like Dallas Clark, who works for cheap while Pitta was/is out for the Ravens.

Or a guy like Dustin Keller coming back, in the meanwhile, a youngster had risen up in his place and perform well for the Dolphins.
Somebody will pay top dollars for some of these guys, leaving not much left for the rest.

Honestly, I really don't think any of this makes the Texans any better. Truthfully I just see it as more inadequate replacement.

76Texan
11-14-2013, 04:51 PM
http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/2013/defensive-tackle/

Dorsey combined for 193 total tackles and assists before he signed that deal.
He was a former #5 overall pick.

Mitchell will totaled 85+49(prorated) 134.

Sammie lee Hill is a 329lb space eater, something Mitchell is not.

Dwan Edwards is an 8-yr veteran at the time.

There's nothing to compare between Knighton and Mitchell.
Knighton became a force the moment he set foot on the field.
He's not only big, but also fast.

Kelly, Landri
All veterans with more years in service.


S. Marks is somewhat comparable; he was drafted higher, at #62 overall.
He signed a one-yr contact for $1.5M, basically a stop-gap measured.
Team can be more willing to give a player a little more money on a short term deal.

Mosley is a veteran and signed for a two-yr deal at $2.75M

Anyway, that list is still too long, I got tired of looking them up.

The best thing you can help me out if to filter it down to guys that were drafted a year ahead of Mitchell.

Check to see how they perform as compared to Mitchell.
We will have a better idea of the cost of resigning him.
For example, don't bother comparing him with Raji, Perry, or Knighton.

76Texan
11-14-2013, 04:58 PM
Besides Marks, I found Corvey Irvin, drafted a few spots behind Mitchell.
Nobody wanted him for a while and he only signed with the Cowboys very recently for a bag of chip.

76Texan
11-14-2013, 05:39 PM
Another guy that is comparable somewhat is Roy Miller; he's 310lbs and had started 39 games before signing the new 2-yr contract at $4.5M, with $1.8M cap hit in the first year.

If Mitchell stays healthy, he will have started 19 games.

Miller became a big part of the defense in his rookie year.
He started all 16 games in his second year.
Only injury prevented him to start 13 of the 16 games in the third year.

Basically, he had shown more than Mitchell did, and earlier than Mitchell did.

They were both drafted at the exact 81 spot.
Miller weighs 310lbs per wiki.