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LikeMike
11-13-2013, 08:45 AM
If we get a top 5 pick, would you draft one of the many franchise QB prospects, or do you trust Case Keenum enough, that we can go best player available?

Personally I am not sure about that. Keenum looked really good, about as good as you could want a rookie QB to look. But so far he hasn`t really showed that he can be a winner in the pros. Everybody vanishes in the second half, so does Keenum.

Drafting a QB is always risky - chances are, if you don`t get the first pick you don`t get the next Peyton Manning. And even the first pick is no guarantee as we know. For every Andrew Luck there are at least a dozen Gabberts. But on the other hand, with a team as deep as ours we shouldn`t get a draft pick that high and hopefully we don`t get such a draft pick again in the near future. Can we really skip the chance of a franchise QB for a guy that only played half a season and didn`t get drafted?

texanhead08
11-13-2013, 08:50 AM
If we get a top 5 pick, would you draft one of the many franchise QB prospects, or do you trust Case Keenum enough, that we can go best player available?

Personally I am not sure about that. Keenum looked really good, about as good as you could want a rookie QB to look. But so far he hasn`t really showed that he can be a winner in the pros. Everybody vanishes in the second half, so does Keenum.

Drafting a QB is always risky - chances are, if you don`t get the first pick you don`t get the next Peyton Manning. And even the first pick is no guarantee as we know. For every Andrew Luck there are at least a dozen Gabberts. But on the other hand, with a team as deep as ours we shouldn`t get a draft pick that high and hopefully we don`t get such a draft pick again in the near future. Can we really skip the chance of a franchise QB for a guy that only played half a season and didn`t get drafted?


We don't have a deep team thats a huge myth. I would assume Rick Smith is the one that planted that seed in the media.

deucetx
11-13-2013, 08:55 AM
I would probably trade down to get more picks. We have quite a few holes and with the desire for a quarterback that teams are having you can drive up the asking price. If Keenum doesn't prove to be the direction they want to go then they can still draft someone later in the first or second. I don't see a quarterback in this draft that is a 'must have' that separates themself that much from the next guy.

LikeMike
11-13-2013, 09:00 AM
We don't have a deep team thats a huge myth. I would assume Rick Smith is the one that planted that seed in the media.

Well, IŽd say on offense we are good, except for RT and maybe another G would be nice. WR looks good, HBs look good, TEs look good.

On Defense it looks like we have more holes. DEs are fine, DT is alright I guess, but could do with an upgrade. We could use 2 more LBs, 1 ILB and one OLB. Our Corners look good and I am satisfied with our Safeties.

So imho our holes are RT (you don`t draft that with a top5 pick - and we drafted 2 last season), G (again too high to draft one here), DT (no prospect worthy and not that big a need, ILB (maybe Mosley, but I think that`d be a reach), OLB sure, we could go there and many probably think we should - Barr, Beasley, maybe even Clowney might be our pick.

So besides the LB position, I really don`t think we have a hole to fill with a top 5 pick. Sure, we might go WR to add another weapon and as security for the end of AJs career.

Of course, we could always try to trade away that pick to get more talent overall...

Hervoyel
11-13-2013, 09:20 AM
Trade down in the first and get more picks if possible. To me the biggest single needs we have are ILB, OLB, and RT.

We should be able to address all three of those in the first two rounds if the Texans play their cards right and everyone expected to come back from IR does so. Still if I were the Texans GM (whoever it will be when the time comes) I wouldn't depend on having anyone back. Cushing is a beast but that's two in two years. We need another Cushing.

Wait, forgot about NT. Damn we need a big ol' NT in the middle. Wade says otherwise but I'm sick of seeing it not work. Maybe he can call a defense with a smaller NT but I don't like having to watch it get pushed all over the field.

Trail.Blazr
11-13-2013, 09:20 AM
Fortunately(or unfortunately :kitten:), we still get a good number of games to see play out to be able to address this premature topic.

So far, I like what I've seen from the kid, but he's still got a bit to prove. He will hit a sophomore slump, I'm all but certain. But I like him. I still would want to draft another prospect in the draft, but with as many needs this team has been exposed to have this season, it's fair to say Case would have to crash and burn before I'd green light a top 5 pick on a QB this year. Throw that top potential 5 to a real gaping hole that can't be addressed in FA, or as someone else suggested, trade down if an offer to do so presents itself.

Rey
11-13-2013, 09:26 AM
I wouldn't pass up clowney or Matthews....maybe even nix.

I'd keep that top 5 pick if one were available and trade down from the top of round 2.

Brisco_County
11-13-2013, 09:30 AM
We need a dominant NT to keep Cushing clean.

Bulls on Parade
11-13-2013, 09:42 AM
I wouldn't pass up clowney or Matthews....maybe even nix.

I'd keep that top 5 pick if one were available and trade down from the top of round 2.
This kid would be pretty good also...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG552VC1eSY

We need guys like that, who play with a high motor, around J.J. Watt

chicagotexan2
11-13-2013, 09:48 AM
I would probably trade down to get more picks. We have quite a few holes and with the desire for a quarterback that teams are having you can drive up the asking price. If Keenum doesn't prove to be the direction they want to go then they can still draft someone later in the first or second. I don't see a quarterback in this draft that is a 'must have' that separates themself that much from the next guy.

I do like some of the QB's in this draft, but if Keenum plays well the rest of the way then I'd like to roll with him next season. It is obvious that this team has many many holes and I'd like to trade down if we can get a good return of picks. But there is the issue. I am not confident in the teams front office to have more hits than misses in the draft.

Bulls on Parade
11-13-2013, 09:53 AM
The real question: What if we lose out the rest of the way and finish the season 2-14 with 14 losses in a row? That will likely net us the first overall pick. Would you still trade down? That first overall pick would have a lot of trade value.

Right now at 2-7, the Texans currently own the 4th overall pick but if we lose these next two games at home against the Raiders and Jaguars - not entirely out of the question because those two teams have reliable kickers and we don't - we will become the new frontrunners for the top pick.

Keeping Randy Bullock is going to be a blessing in disguise.

Dutchrudder
11-13-2013, 09:54 AM
Jake Matthews would be my choice. We would be set at LT and RT for the next 5 years between him and Duane.

Bulls on Parade
11-13-2013, 09:58 AM
Jake Matthews would be my choice. We would be set at LT and RT for the next 5 years between him and Duane.
If we end up with the first overall pick, I think we can trade down a few spots and still select Jake Matthews at number 4 or 5, in my opinion. The other bad teams in that area will be looking at a quarterback, especially the Vikings and Jaguars. I'm not sure what Tampa Bay or Atlanta would do but I can't imagine them passing up on Clowney, Barr or even Mosley.

Texian
11-13-2013, 10:09 AM
Johnny Football

HOU-TEX
11-13-2013, 10:12 AM
Still a lot to evaluate with Keenum, but where we currently stand, you take the QB if he's there and the one you had at the top of the board. If he's not, you take the BPA. Unfortunately, there's too many holes on this team for tunnel vision. Arguably, there's a need at every level on both sides of the ball.

Big Lou
11-13-2013, 10:23 AM
I like Keenum and he's on of the few bright spots that make it even worth watching at this point, but 3 games is not enough time to decide what happens in round one of the draft.

Many Cinderella story QB's have fallen back to earth after teams get some tape.

I hope he succeeds it makes a great story but at the end of the day it's about wins. I liked Kubiaks story and stayed loyal to him past when I should have let go, I was in love with the idea of a hometown hero. I won't make the same mistake, so I'm cautiously optimist ice at this point.

Honoring Earl 34
11-13-2013, 10:24 AM
Still a lot to evaluate with Keenum, but where we currently stand, you take the QB if he's there and the one you had at the top of the board. If he's not, you take the BPA. Unfortunately, there's too many holes on this team for tunnel vision. Arguably, there's a need at every level on both sides of the ball.

You can draft a QB if one is there that you think is worth that pick and groom him behind Keenum . If Both can play , trade one of the QBs for a 1st rd pick or two 2nds .

Yesterday
11-13-2013, 10:32 AM
Not that I love Keenum, but I don't think any QB in this years draft is worth a top 5 pick. I'd draft Manziel, Mariota, and Boyd later in the first, though...

Draft Jake Matthews imo

htownfan32
11-13-2013, 10:36 AM
If Kubiak stays, I'm sure we'll be drafting Jake Matthews. If the house is cleaned, we'll be drafting a QB. I don't think a new HC stays with Keenum. He'll want his own guy.

Corrosion
11-13-2013, 10:41 AM
I'm really torn on whether to take a QB or not .... Im not convinced that any of this years QB's are "Franchise QB's."


Keenum has had his moments of brilliance and has limited his mistakes - 0 INT's tho a couple probably shoulda been.
But when the heat gets turned up , the entire offense has come apart at the seams.


I haven't decided if Keenum is at fault or if its the failings of the OL along with the fact that they haven't had a back able to pick up blitzes consistently with Foster on the shelf , Tate injured giving snaps to what amounts to street FA's.


Give me a top 5 pick right now and I take Matthews if he's available. If not , I likely try to move back to #8-10 and take FSU's Cameron Erving or Tennessee's Antonio Richardson.

Without reasonable protection , we just cant evaluate the QB spot. Foster's health plays a big part in this as he's been very good at blitz pickup where Tate and others have been subpar to piss poor.

I'd be willing to give Keenum this season and next before making a long term decision at the position based upon what he has been able to do thus far .... but would likely sign a vet FA as insurance.

As for the OLB spot , I have to wonder if better play at the nose would result in more production from those OLB spots.

We all too often see QB's able to step into a clean pocket while the OT's direct the OLB's beyond the QB .... because there is no push up the middle. Get some push up the middle and the QB cant step up on a regular basis. The more I think about it , the more I realize this is the main reason the Texans give up so damn many 3rd and long conversions.

My first three picks are RT , ILB and NT - pending the talent is available.


We also have to consider potential FA losses - Ninja being the main one.

IlliniJen
11-13-2013, 10:42 AM
I think we go for a QB regardless of what Keenum looks like the rest of the season because you can never have too many quarterbacks.

This draft is essential in determining whether or not we go back up quickly or stay in mediocre land for a couple more years. Smith has whiffed on too many picks the last couple of years in areas of need. I don't know if he's letting the coaches run too much of the draft show or what the deal is, but essentially wasting second and third round picks year after year is killing this team at key spots and not building up any depth.

I think we have too many holes to fill to begin addressing them in one draft, but he's gotta be more than 30% effective in his picks...a top QB to come in and give us some competition at a spot where you need a franchise guy to go to a SB is a good foundation that we can at least build on.

Corrosion
11-13-2013, 10:44 AM
I think we go for a QB regardless of what Keenum looks like the rest of the season because you can never have too many quarterbacks.



Not to argue with the rest of the post ..... But if you have two QB's , you don't have a QB.

HJam72
11-13-2013, 11:08 AM
I'm still waiting to see if Keenum can learn to deal with the blitz...

He has impressed me in many ways & I've been pulling for 'im, but I'm not ready to make the call that we-don't-need-a-QB yet. I'm anticipating it and all that, but...

We don't have a top 5 pick yet (and I'm going to change the # just a little here), but I'm kind of of-the-opinion that a team with a top 3 pick needs a QB (hopefully one worth taking is available)....or they wouldn't have a top 3 pick in the first place. :choke:

amazing80
11-13-2013, 11:10 AM
a qb wont fix our secondary woes. we need a cb, s, ilb and olb, plus a rt and k.....and depth every where

we need the fill some holes in the off-season grab a quality back up qb and roll with case

id try to get a db AND rt in free agency

michael oher would be my rt

grab like sam shields or byrd or tj ward.....

IlliniJen
11-13-2013, 11:12 AM
Not to argue with the rest of the post ..... But if you have two QB's , you don't have a QB.

I see your point. But I guess at this stage in the game, we're not really going to see truly what Keenum is capable of because we're working with a coaching staff that is robotic, uncreative, and loathe to make adjustments.

So, he might be great but held back by systematic coaching. Or, he may have reached is apex...how is anyone to know if he's "the guy" under this coaching staff and working under the assumption that the Texans are going to clean house this offseason and get a new coaching staff?

If they don't clean house, you will find my body dangling from the nearest shower rod.

PapaL
11-13-2013, 11:16 AM
Not to argue with the rest of the post ..... But if you have two QB's , you don't have a QB.

Seems to have worked out pretty good in GB; otherwise that's true when both QBs suck.

Drafting a QB early, especially with today's rookie salary cap, and having him sit a year behind Case is absolutely doable.

DX-TEX
11-13-2013, 11:19 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVGO4K_CIAEEA-M.jpg:large

Make it rain in Reliant!

gafftop
11-13-2013, 11:41 AM
Don't want Clowney or Carr. Trade down if we can get good value. Draft class reminds me of Mario class. Bad luck again for Texans as far as draft timing goes. The results the Texans haven't had are strictly self inflicted. Hard to have Super Bowl contender with Capers/Casserly and Kubiak/Smith leading us. Just my opinion.

Hervoyel
11-13-2013, 11:50 AM
If we get a top 5 pick I'll tell what we're going to do...

We're gonna make damn sure he knows better than to video himself jerking off and putting it on the internet!

Uncle Bob needs to hire a guy who does nothing but walk around the locker room advising players on what a bad idea it is to do that. They won't call him "The Turk" but I'm sure a creative and descriptive name is out there somewhere.....

Corrosion
11-13-2013, 12:04 PM
I see your point. But I guess at this stage in the game, we're not really going to see truly what Keenum is capable of because we're working with a coaching staff that is robotic, uncreative, and loathe to make adjustments.

So, he might be great but held back by systematic coaching. Or, he may have reached is apex...how is anyone to know if he's "the guy" under this coaching staff and working under the assumption that the Texans are going to clean house this offseason and get a new coaching staff?

If they don't clean house, you will find my body dangling from the nearest shower rod.

We obviously have differing views on the coaching staff and offensive system ... no need to get into that at this time.


But we don't know and wont know what we have in Keenum ..... until the OL and backs are able to protect him.

Derek Newton - not starter quality , that's why he's splitting time with Harris.(First freaking play of the game - sack , strip , fumble , 0-7 home to climb out of)

Wade Smith - Old , injured , just plain worn out , needs to be replaced.

Dennis Johnson & and Deji Karim missing blitz assignments ?! 20 yard loss ?!

All of the above ?! How the hell do you evaluate QB play when he's running for his life or flat on his back ?!


Barry Sanders couldn't escape that kinda pressure.

Norg
11-13-2013, 12:32 PM
depends on if case plays good or not

if he plays bad then its a easy decision get a QB 1st round

if he plays good then I guess trade down 2 get more pics this team has a lot of holes to fill if we can get a extra 2nd round pick that would be sweet

bhsman
11-13-2013, 02:35 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVGO4K_CIAEEA-M.jpg:large

Make it rain in Reliant!

Thanks for this, I had been looking for it earlier...

The1ApplePie
11-14-2013, 12:09 AM
Passing on a QB in the first, taking an O-Lineman, and then taking a QB in the second sounds way too much like the Jake Long and Chad Hennie combo for my liking.

Seems entirely too high to take a RT.

It will all depend on Keenum, and if a new coach comes in.

Corrosion
11-14-2013, 12:15 AM
Passing on a QB in the first, taking an O-Lineman, and then taking a QB in the second sounds way too much like the Jake Long and Chad Hennie combo for my liking.

Seems entirely too high to take a RT.

It will all depend on Keenum, and if a new coach comes in.

That's one of the reasons I would strongly consider a trade back to ~8-10 if we were in the top 5 and not taking a QB (Or our target QB is gone) and taking Cameron Erving of FSU.


The other thing to consider is "How many more years does Brown have at LT"?

Drafting a guy like Matthews allows you to plug him in at RT right away and possibly move him to LT later , basically Browns future replacement is on the roster. This really softens the blow of "this is too high for a RT".

aussie_texan
11-14-2013, 01:42 AM
take best player available out of barr, clowney, mosley or matthews. or trade back to around 10 and hope one is still available preferably mosley!

this scenario applies even if keenum crashes and burns. i don't see a franchise QB worth taking

aussie_texan
11-14-2013, 01:43 AM
That's one of the reasons I would strongly consider a trade back to ~8-10 if we were in the top 5 and not taking a QB (Or our target QB is gone) and taking Cameron Erving of FSU.


The other thing to consider is "How many more years does Brown have at LT"?

Drafting a guy like Matthews allows you to plug him in at RT right away and possibly move him to LT later , basically Browns future replacement is on the roster. This really softens the blow of "this is too high for a RT".

i agree with this scenario :goodpost:

Texian
11-14-2013, 11:30 AM
Johnny Manziel is going to be better than Russell Wilson and Colin Kaepernick. That is all!

leebigeztx
11-15-2013, 03:00 AM
The biggest hole a team can have is at qb. Its easy to say there is only 1 franchise qb,but u better be right or you're doomed for awhile. I think the texans need to think long term when talking franchise qbs. Drafting a qb or any other player is risky. Remember when aaron curry was the safe pick? Your franchise fortunes rests on the player who touches the ball the most.

Wolf6151
11-15-2013, 03:47 AM
If we get a top 5 pick I want to trade down to the 12-18 range. With such a trade we could easily pick up an early 2nd and a mid 3rd or 4th depending on how far we trade down. The great OT prospects, with the exception of Matthews, will still be on the board, a great CB prospect, NT prospect, etc... will still be available and be a better value along with the extra picks that we need to fill holes. Having two early 2nd round picks offers us some great talent at a great price.

76Texan
11-15-2013, 07:12 AM
That's one of the reasons I would strongly consider a trade back to ~8-10 if we were in the top 5 and not taking a QB (Or our target QB is gone) and taking Cameron Erving of FSU.


The other thing to consider is "How many more years does Brown have at LT"?

Drafting a guy like Matthews allows you to plug him in at RT right away and possibly move him to LT later , basically Browns future replacement is on the roster. This really softens the blow of "this is too high for a RT".

This is why I think Matthews is the safest pick.
He does well both at RT and LT.

Good technique, good pad level, good kick slide, good movement combined with the skill and knowledge of how to use his hands and arms, Quick and efficient on the second level, strong to sustain the bull rush, recover nicely upon mistake.

This guy has it all.
He's playing LT this year and I'm drafting him as such.

Your QB's best friend.

76Texan
11-15-2013, 07:15 AM
The biggest hole a team can have is at qb. Its easy to say there is only 1 franchise qb,but u better be right or you're doomed for awhile. I think the texans need to think long term when talking franchise qbs. Drafting a qb or any other player is risky. Remember when aaron curry was the safe pick? Your franchise fortunes rests on the player who touches the ball the most.

Aaron Curry? :lol:

76Texan
11-15-2013, 07:20 AM
The biggest hole a team can have is at qb. Its easy to say there is only 1 franchise qb,but u better be right or you're doomed for awhile. I think the texans need to think long term when talking franchise qbs. Drafting a qb or any other player is risky. Remember when aaron curry was the safe pick? Your franchise fortunes rests on the player who touches the ball the most.

So who is your franchise QB this year?

We agreed that there was none last year, only potential.

thunderkyss
11-15-2013, 07:24 AM
Jake Matthews would be my choice. We would be set at LT and RT for the next 5 years between him and Duane.

This.

Love me some Duane Brown, but the big guy's been scaring the sht out of me all year long. Maybe we get lucky & Brown regains form, then we've got a solid RT & this team with a solid OL should be able to go a long way with a healthy Foster, Andre, Hopkins..... & Case.

Speaking of Case, Kubiak created a top 5 offense with a 3rd round back-up & an All-Pro Wider Receiver. As long as Keenum doesn't start playing scared (which he shouldn't with a solid RT) the offense will be fine.

With that said, if there's a QB worthy of a top 5 pick, I wouldn't be opposed to taking him. Provided there isn't an equally worthy player we could use. Luck, Griffin, Newton, even Stafford... Phillip Rivers, I'd have a hard time passing them up.

But as far as I know, no one is talking about this current crop of QBs like those guys.

thunderkyss
11-15-2013, 08:15 AM
I think we go for a QB regardless of what Keenum looks like the rest of the season because you can never have too many quarterbacks.

This draft is essential in determining whether or not we go back up quickly or stay in mediocre land for a couple more years.

I still think a solid RT would take this team to another level.

bhsman
11-15-2013, 12:35 PM
I think the big difference is whether Matthews is a generational talent at RT. If our record means a shot at a guy like Clowney and still allows us to get a top 5 of round 2 RT, then the answer is obvious to me.

Corrosion
11-15-2013, 01:23 PM
I think the big difference is whether Matthews is a generational talent at RT. If our record means a shot at a guy like Clowney and still allows us to get a top 5 of round 2 RT, then the answer is obvious to me.

Clowney is an intriguing prospect without a doubt .... but damn he has some question marks that come along with him. If I'm picking top 5 , I want a player with as few questions surrounding him as possible while having loads of potential.

He's gone missing in action in several games on top of those question marks. I don't touch the guy in the top 5.

htownfan32
11-15-2013, 02:09 PM
Clowney is an intriguing prospect without a doubt .... but damn he has some question marks that come along with him. If I'm picking top 5 , I want a player with as few questions surrounding him as possible while having loads of potential.

He's gone missing in action in several games on top of those question marks. I don't touch the guy in the top 5.

This. He seems like the guy who only shows up in a contract year. I'd much rather have Barr than Clowney.

badboy
11-15-2013, 02:59 PM
I think the big difference is whether Matthews is a generational talent at RT. If our record means a shot at a guy like Clowney and still allows us to get a top 5 of round 2 RT, then the answer is obvious to me.Many will disagree with you on Clowney and part of problem is there probably will not be excellent type RT after round one. Matthews, Lewan, Richardson, Kouandijo & Erving should be gone in first and maybe Scherff who I have not watched. His 2012 leg injury is a concern. If you are going to skip OT in first, I would wait for JuWuan James in 4th who has played RT for years and is equivalent to those rated above him like Hurst, Collins and Henderson. The risk of waiting is like with my 3rd rounder NT Ryan Carrethers; if you wait you better get whom you want later.

steelbtexan
11-15-2013, 11:21 PM
Many will disagree with you on Clowney and part of problem is there probably will not be excellent type RT after round one. Matthews, Lewan, Richardson, Kouandijo & Erving should be gone in first and maybe Scherff who I have not watched. His 2012 leg injury is a concern. If you are going to skip OT in first, I would wait for JuWuan James in 4th who has played RT for years and is equivalent to those rated above him like Hurst, Collins and Henderson. The risk of waiting is like with my 3rd rounder NT Ryan Carrethers; if you wait you better get whom you want later.

How would you feel if they took

rd.1 Clowney
rd.2 Christian Jones
rd.3 Carrethers
rd,4 Moses or James

Even if they had to trade up to get the RT?

Errant Hothy
11-16-2013, 12:07 PM
Whichever QB whomever is in charge likes best, not named Carr. The NFL is a quarterback driven league and that ain't changing. Let Case and the new guy compete in camp, pick the winner and move on. With the new rookie cap deal trading a 1st round pick shouldn't be difficult if the rookie loses out to Case.

Cloneny scares me. When he flashes he's amazing, but he looks mediocre for long stretches.

Corrosion
11-16-2013, 03:39 PM
How would you feel if they took

rd.1 Clowney
rd.2 Christian Jones
rd.3 Carrethers
rd,4 Moses or James

Even if they had to trade up to get the RT?

No .... but I would take a QB with that #1 pick instead of Clowney if I knew I could get Jones one of Shelton or Carrethers and one of Moses or James.


But I would prefer RT , ILB , NT , RB(or DB).

aussie_texan
11-16-2013, 09:48 PM
i think it comes down to who do you think will impact the team most short and long term.
for me its down to mosley, matthews and barr. I'm leaning to mosley i think he would be a huge improvement to the defence starting next year plus has the potential to be an elite 10year ILB.

Matthews at RT solidifies the line and if after several years moves to LT the long term future of the line looks excellent. but how much does he improve the team in the next 2-3 years?

Barr would improve our OLB but i'm not down on Reed and mercilus as some are.
They pressure the QB a lot and force hurries just need to get some more sacks but imo they are not playing badly and maybe its a product of the system. So again how much is barr really going to improve your team over the likes for matthews and mosley.

Also i see no elite QBs in this draft and I'm willing to give keenum a shot next year to show me what he really has. So i would be against taking a QB just for because we will be picking inside the top 10

steelbtexan
11-16-2013, 10:41 PM
No .... but I would take a QB with that #1 pick instead of Clowney if I knew I could get Jones one of Shelton or Carrethers and one of Moses or James.


But I would prefer RT , ILB , NT , RB(or DB).

I'm not real high on this QB class, next yrs class with Hogan/Petty/Winston is when I would start looking for a QB. By then they will know whether Keenum is the future.

bhsman
11-16-2013, 10:44 PM
I'm still high on Clowney; there are a lot of talented tackles that will drop to the second round that we can grab instead.

BigBull
11-16-2013, 10:49 PM
i think it comes down to who do you think will impact the team most short and long term.
for me its down to mosley, matthews and barr. I'm leaning to mosley i think he would be a huge improvement to the defence starting next year plus has the potential to be an elite 10year ILB.

Matthews at RT solidifies the line and if after several years moves to LT the long term future of the line looks excellent. but how much does he improve the team in the next 2-3 years?

Barr would improve our OLB but i'm not down on Reed and mercilus as some are.
They pressure to QB a lot and force hurries just need to get some sacks more but imo they are not playing badly and maybe its a product of the system. So again how much his he really going to improve your team over the likes for matthews and mosley.

Also i see no elite QBs in this draft and I'm willing to give keenum a shot next year to show me what he really has. So i would be against taking a QB just for because we will be picking inside the top 10

I agree with you that there isn't an elite QB in this draft. Also I think Mosley would be a beast.


Sent from the future...

thunderkyss
11-17-2013, 01:59 AM
Matthews at RT solidifies the line and if after several years moves to LT the long term future of the line looks excellent. but how much does he improve the team in the next 2-3 years?


If this team could run the ball like we did in 2011, this season would have been so different. Not to absolve Matt from anything, but we all knew he was not an elite QB, that we would not win a Super Bowl on the strength of Matt's arm. But that he could could help us if we had an elite running game... which would keep our defense off the field & help them perform closer to their 2011 form.

If case turns out to be who we want him to be, an elite OT take us to that other level.

Scooter
11-17-2013, 12:30 PM
If this team could run the ball like we did in 2011, this season would have been so different. Not to absolve Matt from anything, but we all knew he was not an elite QB, that we would not win a Super Bowl on the strength of Matt's arm. But that he could could help us if we had an elite running game... which would keep our defense off the field & help them perform closer to their 2011 form.

If case turns out to be who we want him to be, an elite OT take us to that other level.

this about sums it up for me.

i'd also like to agree with several others that if you're in the top 5, dont swing for the fence on a guy with question marks - especially regarding desire or motor. clowney isnt an option for me. i also love a pedigree, matthews obviously being my selection even if we're picking first. there's no such thing as a sure thing, but if i can land what is almost certainly a 10-15 year starter at an important position there's no way i pass it up.

Texian
11-17-2013, 01:16 PM
So who is your franchise QB this year?



"Johnny TEXAN"

Rey
11-17-2013, 01:32 PM
I don't believe it's if. I think it's when at this point.

Texans have been spinning their wheels thinking slow and steady was going to win the race.

They suck.

beerlover
11-17-2013, 02:33 PM
"Johnny TEXAN"

how about Johnny Texian :swatter:

htownfan32
11-17-2013, 04:36 PM
We need a QB. If Keenum doesn't improve and Schaub continues his red zone woes... **** it. All in for Bridgewater.

Corrosion
11-17-2013, 04:56 PM
Jax in two of the next three games .... We'll see soon if they are all in for the #1 pick.

TXAg14
11-17-2013, 05:07 PM
I think while trying to get a QB is a good idea, the most pressing concern is the offensive line. You can draft a QB all you like, but if you put him in there with a weaker OL it's not going to help his case at all.

I'm all in for drafting a starting OLman, like Jake Matthews for the 1st pick. Shore up the offensive line so you can have better running room for Foster, and more time for [insert starting QB here].

Use the next few rounds to get some depth on defense. Linebacker in particular.

aussie_texan
11-17-2013, 06:22 PM
starting sharpton and tarpinian is a joke.
Mosley is my pick.
Grab a RT in round 2-3 or trade back into the first.

htownfan32
11-17-2013, 07:13 PM
I think while trying to get a QB is a good idea, the most pressing concern is the offensive line. You can draft a QB all you like, but if you put him in there with a weaker OL it's not going to help his case at all.

I'm all in for drafting a starting OLman, like Jake Matthews for the 1st pick. Shore up the offensive line so you can have better running room for Foster, and more time for [insert starting QB here].

Use the next few rounds to get some depth on defense. Linebacker in particular.

You're right, I suppose. Keenum has me frustrated with his inability to pickup the blitz because I think he really can be the guy but if he can't throw to a hot route on a 6 man blitz we're not going to put points on the board. Jake Matthews in the first would do a lot to fix that.

However, how would you feel if we ended up with the #1 pick and got Bridgewater in the first, and Ogbuehi in the 2nd (assuming he comes out)? We shore up the RT position and land a franchise QB.

Texian
11-17-2013, 07:16 PM
You're right, I suppose. Keenum has me frustrated with his inability to pickup the blitz because I think he really can be the guy but if he can't throw to a hot route on a 6 man blitz we're not going to put points on the board. Jake Matthews in the first would do a lot to fix that.

However, how would you feel if we ended up with the #1 pick and got Bridgewater in the first, and Ogbuehi in the 2nd (assuming he comes out)? We shore up the RT position and land a franchise QB.

I have Johnny Texan in Rd 1 and Brandon Shreff OT, Iowa in Rd 2. Not a fan of Bridgewater, a bit frail and has a tendancy to float the ball on the deep pass, has a Landry Jones arm. The spells INT on the long ball.

htownfan32
11-17-2013, 07:18 PM
I have Johnny Texan in Rd 1 and Brandon Shreff OT, Iowa in Rd 2. Not a fan of Bridgewater, a bit frail and has a tendancy to float the ball on the deep pass, has a Landry Jones arm. The spells INT on the long ball.

Oh, the UH crowd here would lose their collective **** if this team drafted Johnny Manziel.

Texian
11-17-2013, 07:23 PM
Oh, the UH crowd here would lose their collective **** if this team drafted Johnny Manziel.

IMHO Johnny Texan will be a better QB than Wilson and Kapernick.

Mr teX
11-17-2013, 07:32 PM
I have Johnny Texan in Rd 1 and Brandon Shreff OT, Iowa in Rd 2. Not a fan of Bridgewater, a bit frail and has a tendancy to float the ball on the deep pass, has a Landry Jones arm. The spells INT on the long ball.

u cite frailty as a reason not to draft bridgewater, but then want to draft a guy who's barely 6 feet and a little over 200 lbs? Lol, ok.

And Folks not wanting manziel has next to nothing to do with u of h...

And manziel being better than wilson and kaepernick? Lol, based on what? 1 guy has been steady at the qb position since day one as a starter and has the 2nd highest qbr in the league behind only peyton manning....the other has already been to a SB. Pretty lofty expectations for a guy who hasnt even mastered passing the ball on the college level.

Texian
11-17-2013, 09:02 PM
u cite frailty as a reason not to draft bridgewater, but then want to draft a guy who's barely 6 feet and a little over 200 lbs? Lol, ok.

And Folks not wanting manziel has next to nothing to do with u of h...

And manziel being better than wilson and kaepernick? Lol, based on what? 1 guy has been steady at the qb position since day one as a starter and has the 2nd highest qbr in the league behind only peyton manning....the other has already been to a SB. Pretty lofty expectations for a guy who hasnt even mastered passing the ball on the college level.

Bridgewater is 6'3" 205 lbs vs Manziel 6'0" 212 lbs so YES TB is a bit frail in comparison, Bridgewater has narrow bony shoulders, could be numerous shoulder injuries in his TB's future. Those weak shoulders are probably why he floats the long ball.

If you're one who stereotypes because your small you will get injured often, the truth is 6'5" QBs get hurt about as often as 6'0" QBs. Unless your name is Bret Farve you're likely to miss games as an NFL QB due to injuries. Manziel is 2" taller than Wilson. Manziel as a freshman in the SEC threw for over 3000 yds and ran for over 1000 yds. Kaepernick was only able to accomplish this his Senior yr at Nevada in the WAC. Manziel also has a quicker release, quicker feet and sees the field better than Kaepernick or Wilson did in college. As a freshman and Soph Kaepernick was only able to complete 54% of his passes, Wilson 58%, Manziel over 70%.

Mr teX
11-17-2013, 09:27 PM
Bridgewater is 6'3" 205 lbs vs Manziel 6'0" 212 lbs so YES TB is a bit frail in comparison, Bridgewater has narrow bony shoulders, could be numerous shoulder injuries in his TB's future. Those weak shoulders are probably why he floats the long ball.

If you're one who stereotypes because your small you will get injured often, the truth is 6'5" QBs get hurt about as often as 6'0" QBs. Unless your name is Bret Farve you're likely to miss games as an NFL QB due to injuries. Manziel is 2" taller than Wilson. Manziel as a freshman in the SEC threw for over 3000 yds and ran for over 1000 yds. Kaepernick was only able to accomplish this his Senior yr at Nevada in the WAC. Manziel also has a quicker release, quicker feet and sees the field better than Kaepernick or Wilson did in college. As a freshman and Soph Kaepernick was only able to complete 54% of his passes, Wilson 58%, Manziel over 70%.

Yet, manziel is the one who's had his shoulder dinged up this year...:rolleyes:

And lol at 7 pounds being the difference of frailty....Most NFL scouts dont seem to be bothered by TB's "frailty".

that 5" of height difference though

Texian
11-17-2013, 09:58 PM
Yet, manziel is the one who's had his shoulder dinged up this year...:rolleyes:Unless your name is Bret Farve, chances are you will miss games playing QB due to injury. Oh and Manziel didn't miss a game because of the ding and yet Aaron Rodgers has missed several with his banged up shoulder and he's 6'3".

And lol at 7 pounds being the difference of frailty....Most NFL scouts dont seem to be bothered by TB's "frailty". how many NFL scouts have you talked with? You may be confusing media draftniks with NFL Scouts. I know the media talking heads are enamored with Bridgewater. Come draft day I don't expect NFL scouts to be as giddy about Bridgewater as the media

that 5" of height difference though

that is 3" and Bridgewater looks THIN (frail) and Manziel looks stout (not frail). I notice you stopped wanting to debate Manziel vs Kaepernick and Wilson college performances.

Mr teX
11-17-2013, 10:09 PM
that is 3" and Bridgewater looks THIN (frail) and Manziel looks stout (not frail). I notice you stopped wanting to debate Manziel vs Kaepernick and Wilson college performances.

And i noticed u didnt address manziel hurting his shoulder despite him having the more "stout" frame...but i digress..

I never engaged you on the stats thing b/c college performance means diddley poo in the nfl....even if manziel does play in the mighty SEC.

Furthermore, wilson and kaepernick have already proven they belong although kaepernick is looking shaky this year.

The only thing Manziel has had the chance to prove is that he can put up numbers in an offense where everyone who plays in it put up numbers.

Texian
11-17-2013, 10:20 PM
And i noticed u didnt address manziel hurting his shoulder despite him having the more "stout" frame...but i digress.. I did address it, check again, here is what I said .... "Oh and Manziel didn't miss a game because of the ding and yet Aaron Rodgers has missed several with his banged up shoulder and he's 6'3".

I never engaged you on the stats thing b/c college performance means diddley poo in the nfl....even if manziel does play in the mighty SEC. Those same college stats are what got Kaepernick and Wilson drafted.

Furthermore, wilson and kaepernick have already proven they belong although kaepernick is looking shaky this year. Furthermore, Johnny Texan will too.

The only thing Manziel has had the chance to prove is that he can put up numbers in an offense where everyone who plays in it put up numbers.

Beg to differ with you here bud, I would venture to say that Sumlin would be less than .500 if Johnny Texan has not been the Texas A&M QB. Clearly you don't like Johnny Texan. The only way Texas A&M beats Alabama in Tuscaloosa is JOHNNY TEXAN.

TexansSeminole
11-17-2013, 10:59 PM
Did I just read somebody call Manziel "stout?"

Seriously?

Mr teX
11-17-2013, 11:07 PM
Did I just read somebody call Manziel "stout?"

Seriously?

Yep...manziel weighs 7 more lbs than bridgewater so that apparently makes him more stout and bridgewater frail...


Just leave it alone Texas Seminole....

Texian
11-17-2013, 11:09 PM
Did I just read somebody call Manziel "stout?"

Seriously?

For somebody who is 6' yes and compared to the tall skinny Bridgewater yes, he's stout. 6' 212 is not small. Manziel is in proportion to QBs who are 6'2" 225. Compared to JJ Watt, no, he's not stout.

Texian
11-17-2013, 11:11 PM
Yep...manziel weighs 7 more lbs than bridgewater so that apparently makes him more stout and bridgewater frail...


Just leave it alone Texas Seminole....

Bridgewater is 3" taller and 7 lbs lighter, that's NOT in proportion. Bridgewater looks like a tall skinny WR, Manziel looks like a big safety.

mussop
11-17-2013, 11:13 PM
The criticism on manzel is laughable. He has pretty much destroyed every opponent he's gone against. As a prospect he's not on the level of a rg3 or luck but he's not far behind.

Texian
11-17-2013, 11:14 PM
The criticism on manzel is laughable. He has pretty much destroyed every opponent he's gone against. As a prospect he's not on the level of a rg3 or luck but he's not far behind.

Manziel haters are up late tonight.....and speaking of Luck, Manziel might be the Texans best answer to Mr. Andrew Luck. Right now they don't have one.

Mr teX
11-17-2013, 11:25 PM
Bridgewater is 3" taller and 7 lbs lighter, that's NOT in proportion. Bridgewater looks like a tall skinny WR, Manziel looks like a big safety.

Your argument is asinine and the weight difference is neglible. Bridgewater's frame supports the idea that he can and will add weight...let alone the measely 7 lbs you're quibling about.

TexansSeminole
11-17-2013, 11:26 PM
Neither Bridgewater or Manziel are "stout," unless the definition of that word has changed and I didn't get the memo.

bhsman
11-17-2013, 11:34 PM
I looked up the video of Manziel being injured against Auburn, and the way he was hit is the same way Rodgers broke his collarbone; ie, you don't want ANY quarterback coming down like that, directly on their shoulder. That doesn't indicate to me that Manziel is 'fragile' any more so than someone like Cushing is for taking a hit that usually causes an injury. And Texian is technically correct: Manziel isn't exactly stocky but Bridgewater is a bit skinnier by comparison, though it shouldn't make a huge difference.

I'm also on the Manziel bandwagon if only because of his eyes: he sees the field better than anyone else, and has improved at making reads. It's what makes guys like Drew Brees so dangerous, though I'd argue Manziel's athleticism takes it to another level. If he could just perfect his mimic of Wilson's escape act he could be truly dangerous.

JFF, y'all. :tiphat:

Texian
11-17-2013, 11:39 PM
Neither Bridgewater or Manziel are "stout," unless the definition of that word has changed and I didn't get the memo.

Well I guess you're going to need to give us your definition of stout since you don't agree. I am already prepared for a person being a hearty FSU stout and another person being rather smallish Texas A&M frail. Remember we are not talking about OG or NT here.Would you be happier if I said Manziel is well proportioned for a 6' 212 lbs and Bridgewater is a bit peckish at 6'3" and only 205 lbs or would you prefer to continue to nit pick? :)

beerlover
11-17-2013, 11:55 PM
Neither is what I would term stout. EJ Manual is stout. Boyd may be the closest thing in terms of being a stout QB @ 225 & only 6' tall. Manziel processes information quicker than anybody I've seen this year & has excellent core strength for his size.

Texian
11-17-2013, 11:58 PM
I have erred in my choice of words and the use of the word "stout". To all those that I have offended by the word choice I apologize. That was never my intention. I know now I should've have used better judgement in my word choice. I should've said the Johnny Manziel at 6' 212 lbs doesn't appear as thin as the 6'3" 205 lbs Teddy Bridgewater. To all those who are stout and there is no question about the stoutness and are too offended by my using the word stout, my apologies to you also. It was never my intention to offend or call attention to anyone being stout.

bhsman
11-18-2013, 12:00 AM
It was never my intention to offend or call attention to anyone being stout.

You callin' us fat, boy-o? :uchicken:

thunderkyss
11-18-2013, 12:21 AM
Yep...manziel weighs 7 more lbs than bridgewater so that apparently makes him more stout and bridgewater frail...



Then I'm a Sherman tank.

thunderkyss
11-18-2013, 12:23 AM
For somebody who is 6' yes and compared to the tall skinny Bridgewater yes, he's stout. 6' 212 is not small. Manziel is in proportion to QBs who are 6'2" 225. Compared to JJ Watt, no, he's not stout.

Michael Vick is frail.

bhsman
11-18-2013, 12:26 AM
Michael Vick is frail.

Are Drew Brees or Russel Wilson 'frail', then?

thunderkyss
11-18-2013, 12:31 AM
Are Drew Brees or Russel Wilson 'frail', then?

I don't think Brees or Wilson are 6' tall & i'd bet they're both 210lbs before breakfast.

infantrycak
11-18-2013, 12:48 AM
I don't think Brees or Wilson are 6' tall & i'd bet they're both 210lbs before breakfast.

The Seahawks have Wilson at 5'11" 206 lbs.
The Saints list Brees at 6' 209 lbs.

TexansSeminole
11-18-2013, 04:30 AM
Well I guess you're going to need to give us your definition of stout since you don't agree. I am already prepared for a person being a hearty FSU stout and another person being rather smallish Texas A&M frail. Remember we are not talking about OG or NT here.Would you be happier if I said Manziel is well proportioned for a 6' 212 lbs and Bridgewater is a bit peckish at 6'3" and only 205 lbs or would you prefer to continue to nit pick? :)

Nitpick? What are you rambling about now?

You said one guy is frail, the other guy is stout. I correctly said that neither is stout. Sorry for not agreeing that your man crush is a "stout" guy.

Stout: A thickset or corpulent person.

You're making yourself sound like a ridiculously goofy groupie in your last 5 or so posts.

You don't need to tear down another guy to make your boo sound like a more viable prospect. Especially when you are talking about one of your boo's biggest negatives.

thunderkyss
11-18-2013, 05:01 AM
The Seahawks have Wilson at 5'11" 206 lbs.
The Saints list Brees at 6' 209 lbs.

I know, I saw those numbers before I posted. I still think they rounded up on Brees' height & they were weighed under optimal conditions.

One guy looks like he's built to take a punch.....

http://media.lehighvalleylive.com/sports_impact/photo/dwight-freeney-and-drew-brees-bc9c2a06d6eae72a.jpg

The other guy doesn't

http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Johnny-Manziel1.jpg

One is also 10 years senior to the other... then again

http://msn.foxsports.com/livexml/NFL/201203090127052336724-p2.jpeg

But Johny doesn't look as frail as this guy...

http://marcusmariotafans.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Marcus-Mariota-Picture-2.jpg

otisbean
11-18-2013, 07:59 AM
Don't you know dark colors are slimming?

I love Manziel but I'm also scared of him just a bit. I agree with the others that tout his vision and ability to process information, it's exceptional and it's something you cannot coach. I'd also add his competitiveness and will to win, again that cannot be coached. I'd like to see him make more plays on schedule where he drops back, sticks his foot in the ground and fires the ball. I'm also a bit worried that he'll take too many big hits and get injured.

The sad thing is he'd be a perfect fit in Kubiak's offense. To bad Gary's coached himself out of a job...

Texian
11-18-2013, 09:54 AM
Your argument is asinine and the weight difference is neglible. Bridgewater's frame supports the idea that he can and will add weight...let alone the measely 7 lbs you're quibling about.

I can tell you're young and your education incomplete by the language you use in your argument. Until Bridgewater does add weight he will always be on the thin side. And he still throws a floater on his deep ball. My arguments are many things but never asinine.

Texian
11-18-2013, 10:01 AM
Don't you know dark colors are slimming?

I love Manziel but I'm also scared of him just a bit. I agree with the others that tout his vision and ability to process information, it's exceptional and it's something you cannot coach. I'd also add his competitiveness and will to win, again that cannot be coached. I'd like to see him make more plays on schedule where he drops back, sticks his foot in the ground and fires the ball. I'm also a bit worried that he'll take too many big hits and get injured.

The sad thing is he'd be a perfect fit in Kubiak's offense. To bad Gary's coached himself out of a job...

Understand some apprehension about Manziel. Situation was quite similar to Cam Newton when he announced he was entering the NFL Draft. At the time I think there were more questions about Cam's NFL game. Cam had a lot naysayers (probably many right here) who said his game would never transition to an NFL QB.

Hervoyel
11-18-2013, 10:43 AM
This is why I think Matthews is the safest pick.
He does well both at RT and LT.

Good technique, good pad level, good kick slide, good movement combined with the skill and knowledge of how to use his hands and arms, Quick and efficient on the second level, strong to sustain the bull rush, recover nicely upon mistake.

This guy has it all.
He's playing LT this year and I'm drafting him as such.

Your QB's best friend.

rep. It's so damn obvious.

beerlover
11-18-2013, 10:56 AM
I fully expected Texans to win a few of these match-ups but I was wrong. QB position is beyond psycho this point. Kubiak/Schaub as I've maintained must be joined @ the hip & it's time to severe this relationship from organization. Both must pay the ultimate price, being cut, discharged, fired :cutthroat:

Offensive Line is part old/new never developed into a cohesive unit hoped. No longer running the ZBS only abolition the running game has dwindled , becoming incapable of converting 3rd downs or TD's with no depth whatsoever.

The defense runs through one player, Watt, without him there is nothing. Still highly graded stat wise, he is just that good, but I would argue he needs more help than Case Keenum.

For once special teams did not beat you. Yet Texans are 2-8 & 10 1/2 point favorites against Jacksonville?????????????????????? which brings us to distinct possibility both teams will have top 5 picks, both needing a QB/OT/DE. Could be we repeat 2003 draft when Detroit selected #2 & Texans #3, Lions selected Charles Rogers, Texans Andre Johnson?

Point is one team will pull a potential hall of fame player the other maybe not so much. Bridewater/Clowney both most talented prospects offensive/defensive hence both maybe gone by 3-5 selection. So after that do you target highest grade or highest need/grade? Since Texans need everything, doesn't it come back to best player (which Andre was)?

What I would like to see within this thread is for all of us to come to a consensus in order the next 3 best players available. :thumbup

TexansSeminole
11-18-2013, 11:04 AM
If we have a top 5 pick, I am taking either Barr or Matthews, possibly Nix depending on his health situation.

I like Clowney's skill set but there are question marks there that I don't have good enough answers to.

Mr teX
11-18-2013, 11:08 AM
I fully expected Texans to win a few of these match-ups but I was wrong. QB position is beyond psycho this point. Kubiak/Schaub as I've maintained must be joined @ the hip & it's time to severe this relationship from organization. Both must pay the ultimate price, being cut, discharged, fired :cutthroat:

Offensive Line is part old/new never developed into a cohesive unit hoped. No longer running the ZBS only abolition the running game has dwindled , becoming incapable of converting 3rd downs or TD's with no depth whatsoever.

The defense runs through one player, Watt, without him there is nothing. Still highly graded stat wise, he is just that good, but I would argue he needs more help than Case Keenum.

For once special teams did not beat you. Yet Texans are 2-8 & 10 1/2 point favorites against Jacksonville?????????????????????? which brings us to distinct possibility both teams will have top 5 picks, both needing a QB/OT/DE. Could be we repeat 2003 draft when Detroit selected #2 & Texans #3, Lions selected Charles Rogers, Texans Andre Johnson?

Point is one team will pull a potential hall of fame player the other maybe not so much. Bridewater/Clowney both most talented prospects offensive/defensive hence both maybe gone by 3-5 selection. So after that do you target highest grade or highest need/grade? Since Texans need everything, doesn't it come back to best player (which Andre was)?

What I would like to see within this thread is for all of us to come to a consensus in order the next 3 best players available. :thumbup


If bridgewater and clowney are gone, gotta go with matthews.....not sold on mariota. If either of the aforementioned guys are still on the board, i think you've got to think long and hard about both guys.

Honoring Earl 34
11-18-2013, 11:15 AM
If we have a top 5 pick, I am taking either Barr or Matthews, possibly Nix depending on his health situation.

I like Clowney's skill set but there are question marks there that I don't have good enough answers to.

I remember ND Kalu saying that the Texan fans are going to realize just how much Mario meant by having to be accounted for . I guess the same thing could be said about Barwin because he almost got there a bunch last year . JJ is having a good year but he sure could use some help on the pass rush . That's my reason for Barr .

The Texans have gotten old on the OL quick . Wade Smith is down and Ben Jones isn't a guard . Brennan Williams seemed big and athletic but I'm not sure he likes to play football . Quis is a ZBS guy and the new coach may not like that . They need a RT bad so Matthews .

If we continue to suck and I see no reason why not except for the Jags , we get an early 2nd rd pick . You can get a good QB prospect just not as tall , a good RT prospect just may not be a LT in the future , an elite pass rusher will be long gone , a really good guard prospect .

beerlover
11-18-2013, 11:44 AM
A poll would be nice :)

3 Matthews 11
4 Barr 11
5 Manziel 11

Texian
11-18-2013, 11:48 AM
I remember ND Kalu saying that the Texan fans are going to realize just how much Mario meant by having to be accounted for . I guess the same thing could be said about Barwin because he almost got there a bunch last year . JJ is having a good year but he sure could use some help on the pass rush . That's my reason for Barr .

The Texans have gotten old on the OL quick . Wade Smith is down and Ben Jones isn't a guard . Brennan Williams seemed big and athletic but I'm not sure he likes to play football . Quis is a ZBS guy and the new coach may not like that . They need a RT bad so Matthews .

If we continue to suck and I see no reason why not except for the Jags , we get an early 2nd rd pick . You can get a good QB prospect just not as tall , a good RT prospect just may not be a LT in the future , an elite pass rusher will be long gone , a really good guard prospect .

I must agree with much of what you say, I only differ w/ Johnny Texan in RD 1 because the Texans still have no answer to Andrew Luck. I have watched Barr in 3 games this year and came away not impressed. To tall, loses leverage, former RB and as a result looks weak on defense side of the ball, is easily blocked and when engaged can't shake block. If Barr goes top 10 I see a bust. Instead of Barr I like Attachou in Rd 3 (compares to Brian Orakpo) and I think will have a better career than Barr.

I do like OT Brandon Scherff in Rd 2 and is my answer to RT. I also like Trey Hopkins in Rd 7 to play LG. The one and maybe the only thing I like about Longhorns is play by Hopkins, Espinoza and Walters. I'm not sure there is a better interior line in college football. I'm still amazed at how these 3 blew away Oklahoma DL and controlled that game. They were dominant against OK St. I still don't understand how the University of Texas Longhorns has Case McCoy as their QB.

Honoring Earl 34
11-18-2013, 11:55 AM
I must agree with much of what you say, I only differ w/ Johnny Texan in RD 1 because the Texans still have no answer to Andrew Luck. I have watched Barr in 3 games this year and came away not impressed. To tall, loses leverage, former RB and as a result looks weak on defense side of the ball, is easily blocked and when engaged can't shake block. If Barr goes top 10 I see a bust.

I do like OT Brandon Scherff in Rd 2 and is my answer to RT. I also like Trey Hopkins in Rd 7 to play LG. The one and maybe the only thing I like about Longhorns is play by Hopkins, Espinoza and Walters. I'm not sure there is a better interior line in college football. I'm still amazed at how these 3 blew away Oklahoma DL and controlled that game. They were dominant against OK St. I still don't understand how the University of Texas Longhorns has Case McCoy as their QB.

The road is littered with QB studs from Texas who didn't go to UT the past decade .

Hopkins is from North Shore isn't he ?

I think Johnny can be a good player , a cross between Russell Wilson and Brees . His off the field stuff doesn't compare with some of the all time greats like Favre .

The Texans have to get better OLBs if they continue the 3-4 . If they don't I hope the move Cushing back to OLB .

Honoring Earl 34
11-18-2013, 11:56 AM
A poll would be nice :)

3 Matthews 11
4 Barr 11
5 Manziel 1

With all the mocks up , that's a poll . I think the players change but the positions of needs the same . :doot:

beerlover
11-18-2013, 12:02 PM
With all the mocks up , that's a poll . I think the players change but the positions of needs the same . :doot:

yeah, but easier to keep up with, lol :kitten:

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1429

WolverineFan
11-18-2013, 06:31 PM
I remember ND Kalu saying that the Texan fans are going to realize just how much Mario meant by having to be accounted for . I guess the same thing could be said about Barwin because he almost got there a bunch last year . JJ is having a good year but he sure could use some help on the pass rush . That's my reason for Barr.

Part of the reason is because Wade changed the defense. Last year we were running a 3-4 Over. Without getting technical, this means Reed and Ninja had favorable matchups while Watt had to deal with double teams inside and Barwin has to two-gap on the backside. That's tough duty for Barwin, but it's something he and Mario were pretty good at. It's tough for Watt also, but he's a freak.

This year we changed to a 3-4 Under. The reason we changed is because Wade didn't think Mercilus was strong enough against the run to two-gap like Barwin did last year or Mario did the year before. So you shift the line under so that he basically has a 1-on-1 matchup every play. This hurts Reed because now he has to two-gap on the strong side. The reason he two-gaps is because you don't want to two-gap Watt. Two-gaping Watt is a waste of elite talent while two-gaping Reed is not. Reed is basically a contain end which is why he hasn't offered much of anything in the form of pass rush.

To add onto your post, if you draft Barr then he would play SLB. He's athletic enough to rush the passer and cover TE's. However, you don't want him two-gapping on the outside because that's wasting elite talent. So you would basically slide everything back to an Over and give him a favorable matchup and ask Mercilus to grow up and two-gap the backside. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. He had decent production at WLB last year, but it was mainly on passing downs. I'm not sure how he holds up two-gapping the backside on run downs.

Honoring Earl 34
11-18-2013, 06:43 PM
Part of the reason is because Wade changed the defense. Last year we were running a 3-4 Over. Without getting technical, this means Reed and Ninja had favorable matchups while Watt had to deal with double teams inside and Barwin has to two-gap on the backside. That's tough duty for Barwin, but it's something he and Mario were pretty good at. It's tough for Watt also, but he's a freak.

This year we changed to a 3-4 Under. The reason we changed is because Wade didn't think Mercilus was strong enough against the run to two-gap like Barwin did last year or Mario did the year before. So you shift the line under so that he basically has a 1-on-1 matchup every play. This hurts Reed because now he has to two-gap on the strong side. The reason he two-gaps is because you don't want to two-gap Watt. Two-gaping Watt is a waste of elite talent while two-gaping Reed is not. Reed is basically a contain end which is why he hasn't offered much of anything in the form of pass rush.

To add onto your post, if you draft Barr then he would play SLB. He's athletic enough to rush the passer and cover TE's. However, you don't want him two-gapping on the outside because that's wasting elite talent. So you would basically slide everything back to an Over and give him a favorable matchup and ask Mercilus to grow up and two-gap the backside. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. He had decent production at WLB last year, but it was mainly on passing downs. I'm not sure how he holds up two-gapping the backside on run downs.

What if Wade's not back ? What if Clowney is there ?

WolverineFan
11-18-2013, 07:01 PM
What if Wade's not back ? What if Clowney is there ?

Then all bets are off. That's why I'm hesitant to fall in love with any prospect right now. We have no idea who will be coaching the team next year, thus no idea what offense or defense we will be running.

Honoring Earl 34
11-18-2013, 07:05 PM
Then all bets are off. That's why I'm hesitant to fall in love with any prospect right now. We have no idea who will be coaching the team next year, thus no idea what offense or defense we will be running.

You are Wolverine fan because of Michigan ?

WolverineFan
11-18-2013, 07:23 PM
You are Wolverine fan because of Michigan ?

Yes

aussie_texan
11-18-2013, 07:23 PM
if you take clowney does that mean you move to a 4-3??
If so what happens to reed and mercilus?
Who plays outside 'backer ??

i think this would be a very tough transition

badboy
11-18-2013, 07:27 PM
if you take clowney does that mean you move to a 4-3??
If so what happens to reed and mercilus?
Who plays outside 'backer ??

i think this would be a very tough transitionDo not forget Trevardo Williams in this scenario.

Texian
11-18-2013, 07:49 PM
if you take clowney does that mean you move to a 4-3??
If so what happens to reed and mercilus?
Who plays outside 'backer ??

i think this would be a very tough transition

I think Clowney would be even better at OLB.

steelbtexan
11-19-2013, 02:20 AM
if you take clowney does that mean you move to a 4-3??
If so what happens to reed and mercilus?
Who plays outside 'backer ??

i think this would be a very tough transition

Not really,

They could move Cushing outside and draft a MLB. Or leave Cushing at MLB move Reed to the strong side and draft a WLB. I see Mercilus as a situational pass rushing DE. Mercilus/Mitchell/Watt/Clowney will be able to get to the QB regularly.

bhsman
11-19-2013, 02:46 AM
Not really,

They could move Cushing outside and draft a MLB. Or leave Cushing at MLB move Reed to the strong side and draft a WLB. I see Mercilus as a situational pass rushing DE. Mercilus/Mitchell/Watt/Clowney will be able to get to the QB regularly.

This is more than likely a dream scenario, but let's say we settle around the 5-6 mark, and Pittsburgh/San Diego/LT-needy team is in the 12-15 range and wants a shot at Taylor Lewan (or even Jake Matthews if the picks beforehand are all QBs+Clowney), and offer a trade: a swap of firsts and thirds, as well as their second-round pick this year. We proceed as follows:

1st round: Johnny Manziel, QB - Texas A&M :roast: (alternatively, Khalil Mack or Van Noy if we aim for a QB later like Mettenberger/Morris/stick with Keenum)

2nd round: Cameron Irving, Tackle - FSU (or best-available Tackle)

2nd round: Anthony Johnson, Defensive Tackle, LSU (or best-available DT; I could see Freak dropping due to lack of production this year, but he'd make life easier for Watt and hell for opposing offensive lines together)

3rd round: Shane Skove, ILB - Stanford (or BA-ILB or BA-QB)

4th round: Best available safety

5th round: Best available cornerback

5th round (conditional pick for Barwin): Best available Guard/DE/TE

6th round: Best available TE/DE

7th round: Best available RB

If we run with Manziel, that gives us a franchise QB, a shiny new olineman to compete with Williams, Jones, and Q for the LG/RT positions in the offseason, and a defensive setup that looks like this:

Watt - Johnson - Mitchell - Mercilus

Reed - Cushing - Skov

Joseph - Swearinger - Manning - Jackson

Fill free to swap in Harris, Smith (who gets re-signed, I think), Crick, etc., all as rotational players.

aussie_texan
11-19-2013, 04:11 AM
Not really,

They could move Cushing outside and draft a MLB. Or leave Cushing at MLB move Reed to the strong side and draft a WLB. I see Mercilus as a situational pass rushing DE. Mercilus/Mitchell/Watt/Clowney will be able to get to the QB regularly.

hmmm not sure if reed can play OLB. i would think he should be playing where he did in college as a DE with his hand in the dirt. He doesn't operate well enough in space.

My overall problem drafting clowney AND moving to the 4-3 is that we would have to many DE and not enough OLB

TexansSeminole
11-19-2013, 12:18 PM
In regards to Brooks Reed, I think the bottom line is that he isn't a very good player. He's not effective enough at OLB. People want to move him inside or move him to a more traditional LB role, assuming we move to a 4-3, because it's convenient. The problem is that he hasn't shown the ability to be a good player in that role. You end up with defensive problems when you start moving guys around simply for convenience. Bottom line, like I said, is that he isn't very good and is another failed draft pick by this administration. I'd look at just replacing him period.

bhsman
11-19-2013, 12:35 PM
Reed gets a lot of crap because he isn't getting sacks, but the way the scheme is set up this year doesn't put him in a position to get sacks. Maybe switching back to 4-3 DE would work, but I plug him at 4-3 OLB with the assumption that it's more for convenience than the hopes that we have the perfect guy at every position in a defensive switch.

steelbtexan
11-19-2013, 12:40 PM
In regards to Brooks Reed, I think the bottom line is that he isn't a very good player. He's not effective enough at OLB. People want to move him inside or move him to a more traditional LB role, assuming we move to a 4-3, because it's convenient. The problem is that he hasn't shown the ability to be a good player in that role. You end up with defensive problems when you start moving guys around simply for convenience. Bottom line, like I said, is that he isn't very good and is another failed draft pick by this administration. I'd look at just replacing him period.

I get that, which is why Leaving Cushing at MLB and drafting somebody like Reilly in the 3d or trading up for somebody like your boy Christian Jones in the middle of the 2nd rd, would address the LB need.

All of the holes cant be filled in one offseason. I would be happy if they fixed the trenches this yr. The below would make mevey happy. Pass ush fixed, run defense much improved, RT albatross removed. Then you've got the rds 4-7 to fill in depth. If somebody like Belue or Skov fell to the bottom of the 3rd the new regime would have the ammo to move up and pick them.

Being at the top of the 4-5th rd can be used to add another impact player. The bottom of the 3rd/top of the 4th seems to be the breaking point talent wise in this draft. IMHO

Rd.1 Clowney
Rd.2 Schreff
Rd.3 Carrethers

WolverineFan
11-19-2013, 12:54 PM
I see a lot of guys mocking Scherff to us in the 2nd round. That isn't going to happen. He's either going to get a top 25 grade and go pro or go back for his Senior year.

He will be a top 15 pick in 2015 if he goes back for another year.

Texian
11-19-2013, 02:02 PM
I see a lot of guys mocking Scherff to us in the 2nd round. That isn't going to happen. He's either going to get a top 25 grade and go pro or go back for his Senior year.

He will be a top 15 pick in 2015 if he goes back for another year.

Jake Matthews seems to be the consensus #1 OT and Top 5 pick. How do rank the following: Cyrus Kouandjio, Taylor Lewan, Cameron Erving, Antonio Richardson, Brandon Scherff.

Do you see them all as 1st RD draft picks? Highly unusual for 6 OT to be drafted in the 1st RD, might be a record. On average 3-4, last year 5.

Cedric Ogbuehi has stated he's returning to Texas A&M and moving over to LT to take Jake Matthews spot.

WolverineFan
11-19-2013, 02:08 PM
Jake Matthews seems to be the consensus #1 OT and Top 5 pick. How do rank the following: Cyrus Kouandjio, Taylor Lewan, Cameron Erving, Antonio Richardson, Brandon Scherff.

Do you see them all as 1st RD draft picks? Highly unusual for 6 OT to be drafted in the 1st RD, might be a record. On average 3-4, last year 5.

Cedric Ogbuehi has stated he's returning to Texas A&M and moving over to LT to take Jake Matthews spot.

1. Matthews (top 5)
2. Kouandjio (top 10)
3. Richardson (top 15)
4. Lewan (top 20)
5. Erving (top 30)
6. Scherff (top 30)

This year is loaded at OT. Scherff will probably go back and be a top 15 pick or higher instead of being a late 1st-early 2nd this year. I think Erving will declare, but if he doesn't then OT will be loaded again next year.

Corrosion
11-19-2013, 02:24 PM
1. Matthews (top 5)
2. Kouandjio (top 10)
3. Richardson (top 15)
4. Lewan (top 20)
5. Erving (top 30)
6. Scherff (top 30)

This year is loaded at OT. Scherff will probably go back and be a top 15 pick or higher instead of being a late 1st-early 2nd this year. I think Erving will declare, but if he doesn't then OT will be loaded again next year.

I have them a bit different ....


Matthews
Erving
Lewan
Kouandjo
Scherff


You could probably ask 10 scouts and they would all have them differently too ... I think Erving & Lewan are very close in talent.

infantrycak
11-19-2013, 03:28 PM
Highly unusual for 6 OT to be drafted in the 1st RD, might be a record.

Purely as trivia, Duane Brown was the 7th T taken in the 1st round in 2008.

eriadoc
11-19-2013, 03:50 PM
Things will probably change after the combine, but with what we know now, I don't see an impact rookie QB coming out. So to me, that's not worth a first round pick when you need talent at so many other spots. IMO, you can pick up a QB in the 3rd round this year and probably have close to the same chance of success as the currently projected first rounders.

IMO, Derek Newton is the worst player on offense. He's atrocious in pass pro. I mean, a fkn cone would provide more of an obstacle on some of the pressures and sacks he's given up. His play is an abomination. So the team doesn't have an NFL level right tackle right now. So Matthews would be my choice (or whatever consensus #1 RT is available). Apart from that:

ILB: There are no starters on this team outside of Cushing. There hasn't been a starting caliber ILB on this team outside Cushing for two years. Maybe they should think about getting one, hmm?

NT: Last good nose tackle the Texans had is doing radio on SR610.

RB: Tate will be gone and Foster has been overworked. I don't feel comfortable relying on Foster 100% and his best play has come when he's had true competition pushing him. Get a replacement for Tate. Good RBs can be had in rounds 3-5 typically.

QB: Take one in the 2nd or 3rd round, IMO. Murray has potential to be the best of the bunch, I think. If Keenum totally craters and the team has no faith in him, grab Mariota in the first round. Either way, it should be an open competition.

Positions of lesser need:

G/C: Quessenberry gives me hope for this position. Ben Jones is awful, so I'm not counting on him at all. Brandon Brooks looks like he could develop; we'll see. Would be good to pick one up in later rounds.

S: Not sure about Manning's contract situation, but I'd like to see someone better than Keo out there with Swearinger.

CB: Always need CBs in a passing league, and none of the Texans CBs are all that great. McCain might be the worst player on defense, so he has to go.

So I guess my ideal draft would look something like T, NT/QB/LB in 2-4, RB/G/CB in 5-6, dealer's choice in rd 7. That still leaves holes, but they didn't create this mess overnight and it won't be fixed overnight (or three nights, in the case of the draft).

kiwitexansfan
11-19-2013, 04:10 PM
Everytime I see this thread title it bugs me, if? IF? there is no IF.

WHEN we get a Top 5 pick....

Rey
11-19-2013, 05:05 PM
I think quess is a better fit at RT.

mussop
11-19-2013, 06:29 PM
Things will probably change after the combine, but with what we know now, I don't see an impact rookie QB coming out. So to me, that's not worth a first round pick when you need talent at so many other spots. IMO, you can pick up a QB in the 3rd round this year and probably have close to the same chance of success as the currently projected first rounders.

IMO, Derek Newton is the worst player on offense. He's atrocious in pass pro. I mean, a fkn cone would provide more of an obstacle on some of the pressures and sacks he's given up. His play is an abomination. So the team doesn't have an NFL level right tackle right now. So Matthews would be my choice (or whatever consensus #1 RT is available). Apart from that:

ILB: There are no starters on this team outside of Cushing. There hasn't been a starting caliber ILB on this team outside Cushing for two years. Maybe they should think about getting one, hmm?

NT: Last good nose tackle the Texans had is doing radio on SR610.

RB: Tate will be gone and Foster has been overworked. I don't feel comfortable relying on Foster 100% and his best play has come when he's had true competition pushing him. Get a replacement for Tate. Good RBs can be had in rounds 3-5 typically.

QB: Take one in the 2nd or 3rd round, IMO. Murray has potential to be the best of the bunch, I think. If Keenum totally craters and the team has no faith in him, grab Mariota in the first round. Either way, it should be an open competition.

Positions of lesser need:

G/C: Quessenberry gives me hope for this position. Ben Jones is awful, so I'm not counting on him at all. Brandon Brooks looks like he could develop; we'll see. Would be good to pick one up in later rounds.

S: Not sure about Manning's contract situation, but I'd like to see someone better than Keo out there with Swearinger.

CB: Always need CBs in a passing league, and none of the Texans CBs are all that great. McCain might be the worst player on defense, so he has to go.

So I guess my ideal draft would look something like T, NT/QB/LB in 2-4, RB/G/CB in 5-6, dealer's choice in rd 7. That still leaves holes, but they didn't create this mess overnight and it won't be fixed overnight (or three nights, in the case of the draft).

Just curious, what about manzel don't you like?

eriadoc
11-19-2013, 08:11 PM
Just curious, what about manzel don't you like?

A few things. First, I tend to favor guys who have put in at least three years in college. More reps, more prep, less of a transition to the pro game. If they run a pro style offense in college, I take that into consideration. Second, I don't prefer running QBs. I like guys who can run, but don't want to. Injuries happen, age happens, and I want a QB that has success because of his mind and arm rather than his legs. Finally, I want a guy at the QB position that doesn't come off as immature. Manziel's not a bad guy, but I believe he has a little growing up to do (many of us did at that age). The pro lifestyle is going to eat him up if he comes at it with the same mindset that he has done in college, IMO. Think about the things that JJ Watt says and does and the things Manziel says and does, for example.

All that said, I don't dislike Manziel as a player or prospect. But I tend to think he's going to move up the draft boards and I don't see the first round value there that some team will be willing to spend. I feel the same way about Mariota. He is most likely going in the first round, but to me he's a bit of a project. I don't really like for the team to take a project in the first round. JMO. If the Texans could pick up Manziel in the second round like the 49ers got Kaepernick, I'd be happy about that. But even he sat on the bench for a year behind Alex Smith. Who knows if he would have looked as good as a true rookie?

Moreover, I feel like the team should look for value at the QB position this year, because I don't feel like any one of these QBs is the next no-brainer, top-of-the-first QB that you just have to take because you sucked that year. Hell, I wouldn't be opposed to going into next year with Keenum, some vet or pseudo-vet, and TJ Yates. Then go after Winston the following year. That's a guy I can get excited about if his current trajectory of play continues.

Hervoyel
11-19-2013, 09:01 PM
All I can think of is "Are the Aggie nut-huggers going to be as bad as the Longhorn nut-huggers were?"

I mean, us UH nut-huggers are by our very nature limited in number and more or less used to not being able to garner much support among the masses. Longhorn nut-huggers were insufferable and we've got six games to go before the season is even over and I'm already gagging every time one of you guys brings up Manziel.

It's going to be a long, long, long......long offseason.

Wolf
11-19-2013, 09:34 PM
We need to get Watt some help.
Or
We need to shore up the offensive line

Early

Wade smith will be gone IIRC

Honoring Earl 34
11-19-2013, 09:37 PM
All I can think of is "Are the Aggie nut-huggers going to be as bad as the Longhorn nut-huggers were?"

I mean, us UH nut-huggers are by our very nature limited in number and more or less used to not being able to garner much support among the masses. Longhorn nut-huggers were insufferable and we've got six games to go before the season is even over and I'm already gagging every time one of you guys brings up Manziel.

It's going to be a long, long, long......long offseason.

Hey ... don't be dissing Petty from Baylor . He could be another Joe Montania .

steelbtexan
11-19-2013, 09:44 PM
I think quess is a better fit at RT.

If that's the case then that would open up Richardson/Jackson/Steen in rds 2-3.

aussie_texan
11-19-2013, 09:58 PM
G/C: Quessenberry gives me hope for this position. Ben Jones is awful, so I'm not counting on him at all. Brandon Brooks looks like he could develop; we'll see. Would be good to pick one up in later rounds.
.

its been really hard for me to evaluate Brooks season because the RT next to him has been abysmal. But i think he gets the starting job next year and Ques plays at LG. hopefully the torn labrum of Williams heals well and his our RT.
that would be a huge bonus going into the draft process

aussie_texan
11-19-2013, 10:00 PM
In regards to Brooks Reed, I think the bottom line is that he isn't a very good player. He's not effective enough at OLB. People want to move him inside or move him to a more traditional LB role, assuming we move to a 4-3, because it's convenient. The problem is that he hasn't shown the ability to be a good player in that role. You end up with defensive problems when you start moving guys around simply for convenience. Bottom line, like I said, is that he isn't very good and is another failed draft pick by this administration. I'd look at just replacing him period.

yeah i agree to the point that i think moving him to OLB wouldn't be a good idea. your fitting a square peg into a round hole.

rather him play at DE in a 4-3.

But i don't think his been as bad as some think this year. his an average player but for a 2nd round pick, this isn't good enough

Scooter
11-19-2013, 10:53 PM
its been really hard for me to evaluate Brooks season because the RT next to him has been abysmal. But i think he gets the starting job next year and Ques plays at LG. hopefully the torn labrum of Williams heals well and his our RT.
that would be a huge bonus going into the draft process

i think brooks is going to be just fine. he still has some technique issues to improve, but most of his errors seem to be coming from scheme and the talent beside him. it could be my imagination but myers seems to almost always go left when pass blocking and newton sucks - brooks often being left on an island. when part of a gelling line brooks has shown to be downright beastly, stoning his man in pass pro and generates a good push when blocking.

Texian
11-19-2013, 11:12 PM
All I can think of is "Are the Aggie nut-huggers going to be as bad as the Longhorn nut-huggers were?"

I mean, us UH nut-huggers are by our very nature limited in number and more or less used to not being able to garner much support among the masses. Longhorn nut-huggers were insufferable and we've got six games to go before the season is even over and I'm already gagging every time one of you guys brings up Manziel.

It's going to be a long, long, long......long offseason.

FYI - I am neither a an Aggie or a Longhorn. I like Manziel simply because I haven't seen another draft eligible college QB who can do what he does on a football field. As for the Longhorns I am very impressed with Mason Walters-Dominic Espinosa-Trey Hopkins, they may be the best interior OL in college football. Not that the impressed the other Horns. So I am really an impartial evaluator.

Texian
11-19-2013, 11:41 PM
A few things. First, I tend to favor guys who have put in at least three years in college. More reps, more prep, less of a transition to the pro game. If they run a pro style offense in college, I take that into consideration. Second, I don't prefer running QBs. I like guys who can run, but don't want to. Injuries happen, age happens, and I want a QB that has success because of his mind and arm rather than his legs. Finally, I want a guy at the QB position that doesn't come off as immature. Manziel's not a bad guy, but I believe he has a little growing up to do (many of us did at that age). The pro lifestyle is going to eat him up if he comes at it with the same mindset that he has done in college, IMO. Think about the things that JJ Watt says and does and the things Manziel says and does, for example.

All that said, I don't dislike Manziel as a player or prospect. But I tend to think he's going to move up the draft boards and I don't see the first round value there that some team will be willing to spend. I feel the same way about Mariota. He is most likely going in the first round, but to me he's a bit of a project. I don't really like for the team to take a project in the first round. JMO. If the Texans could pick up Manziel in the second round like the 49ers got Kaepernick, I'd be happy about that. But even he sat on the bench for a year behind Alex Smith. Who knows if he would have looked as good as a true rookie?

Moreover, I feel like the team should look for value at the QB position this year, because I don't feel like any one of these QBs is the next no-brainer, top-of-the-first QB that you just have to take because you sucked that year. Hell, I wouldn't be opposed to going into next year with Keenum, some vet or pseudo-vet, and TJ Yates. Then go after Winston the following year. That's a guy I can get excited about if his current trajectory of play continues.

Good post, well thought out, common sense. The NFL tends to agree with your assessment of 3 years. Conventional wisdom says rookie NFL QBs tend have better early success if they've 30 college starts. That's why so many college QBs return to school. In the case of Manziel he would finish up with 26 starts. He's already doing so much more than other QBs I'm not sure another 4 college games will do anything for him.

I understand your maturity comments. I must say I can overlook many of Manziels Heisman travails. However the Manning Passing Academy episode does bother me. I would want to talk to the Mannings and question JF about it. This could be a deal breaker for me.

Finally, you're in Indy with just under two minutes, you trail 24-31 and you've the ball. Whose hands do you want to put the ball in? Jake Matthews? Jadevon Clowney? Anthony Barr? Teddy Bridgewater? Marcus Mariota? or Johnny Manziel? For me this is a no brainer, it's Johnny Manziel.

Texecutioner
11-20-2013, 07:36 AM
Why would anyone want a guy like Clowny after having Mario Williams all of those years. Same exact attitude and mindset Mario had coming out of college. Freakish size and athleticism, but takes plays off and plays when he wants to. I hated having Mario here for years with how overrated he was. Some fans just never learn though.the last player you ever want to invest a high draft pick on is a lazy ass player who takes plays off.

bhsman
11-20-2013, 10:26 AM
Why would anyone want a guy like Clowny after having Mario Williams all of those years. Same exact attitude and mindset Mario had coming out of college. Freakish size and athleticism, but takes plays off and plays when he wants to. I hated having Mario here for years with how overrated he was. Some fans just never learn though.the last player you ever want to invest a high draft pick on is a lazy ass player who takes plays off.

I would correct you and point out what others have already said about Clowney's injuries and him being schemed against, but on the other hand the perpetuation of this line of thinking by you and others just means it's more likely that Clowney will fall to us. :clown:

Dutchrudder
11-20-2013, 10:56 AM
Why would anyone want a guy like Clowny after having Mario Williams all of those years. Same exact attitude and mindset Mario had coming out of college. Freakish size and athleticism, but takes plays off and plays when he wants to. I hated having Mario here for years with how overrated he was. Some fans just never learn though.the last player you ever want to invest a high draft pick on is a lazy ass player who takes plays off.

Clowney does seem an awful lot like Mario coming out of college. If he really does take off plays, that should be a red flag to everyone. We had the same sort of warning signs about Sam Montgomery in college (not nearly the same talent/athlete), but still somewhat similar. So we should be wary of that.

Mario is doing pretty well on the Bills though, he has 11 sacks already this year, and is on pace to outdo his career high of 14 sacks. He's certainly not worth the money he's making, but he's not a dud either.