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View Full Version : Texans FO frustrated with Kubiak?


djohn2oo8
11-10-2013, 01:28 PM
According to Ian Rappaport on his twitter page. I'm on my phone so can't post it

Nawzer
11-10-2013, 01:29 PM
They're 2 years too late. Unfortunately, they'll likely bring him back.

TejasTom
11-10-2013, 01:34 PM
Here it is.


#Texans front office a bit frustrated with Kubiak/coaches (4-10 in last 14). Coaches have too much draft input, keep stars on field too long.

DocBar
11-10-2013, 01:45 PM
And whose fault is it if the coaches have too much influence on the draft? I believe that would be Smith?

I totally agree that they leave "name" players on the field too long after their production falls off. Kubiak seems to place locker room presence and team chemistry over on field production a lot of times.

eriadoc
11-10-2013, 01:48 PM
I totally agree that they leave "name" players on the field too long after their production falls off. Kubiak seems to place locker room presence and team chemistry over on field production a lot of times.

I agree, but I find it ironic that all the offseason reports were that the front office was mostly responsible for bringing in Ed Reed. Meanwhile, Wade Phillips was responsible for moving Glover Quin to safety, where he did a pretty decent job.

texanhead08
11-10-2013, 01:49 PM
I am just as frustrated with Rick Smith's inability to manage the salary cap. If Kubes is gone he needs to be right behind him.

welsh texan
11-10-2013, 01:50 PM
And whose fault is it if the coaches have too much influence on the draft? I believe that would be Smith?

I totally agree that they leave "name" players on the field too long after their production falls off. Kubiak seems to place locker room presence and team chemistry over on field production a lot of times.

On my phone so can't paste the link but there's a slightly fuller article on nfl.com which says the frustration is at a lack of in-game rotation, on the dline in particular leading to them being gassed late in games. Teams are beating us on 4th quarter comebacks consistently so it's hard to disagree. Then again how good is the talent behind the starters??

DocBar
11-10-2013, 01:54 PM
On my phone so can't paste the link but there's a slightly fuller article on nfl.com which says the frustration is at a lack of in-game rotation, on the dline in particular leading to them being gassed late in games. Teams are beating us on 4th quarter comebacks consistently so it's hard to disagree. Then again how good is the talent behind the starters??Texans FO Frustrated with Kubiak (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000278850/article/texans-front-office-frustrated-with-kubiak-coaching-staff)

I got it for you.

The interesting part of Rapoport's report is that he said the Texans' front office is "a bit frustrated" with Kubiak and the rest of his coaching staff.

The frustration stems from coaches having too much draft input and keeping stars on the field too long. Rapoport elaborated on the last point saying that the front office believes the lack of a defensive-line rotation leads to wearing down late in games.

DocBar
11-10-2013, 01:58 PM
The good news is that it sounds like FO is just as frustrated with Phillips. It's his DL that is pointed out in the article.

infantrycak
11-10-2013, 01:58 PM
Dline rotation falls on Kollar and Wade.

texanhead08
11-10-2013, 02:02 PM
Dline rotation falls on the DL coach and Wade.

It should also fall on the GM who supplied the coaches with the players they feel aren't good enough to be on the field.

badboy
11-10-2013, 02:02 PM
I am just as frustrated with Rick Smith's inability to manage the salary cap. If Kubes is gone he needs to be right behind him.Perhaps you could spend a little time learning about the cap? We are in very good shape and have signed the FAs (ours & others) we wanted for the last two seasons. We should be able to sign any we want this off season within reason.

eriadoc
11-10-2013, 02:03 PM
There's really nothing good about this being in the news. The team is at odds within, so winning is going to be extremely difficult.

Carr Bombed
11-10-2013, 02:03 PM
And whose fault is it if the coaches have too much influence on the draft? I believe that would be Smith?

I totally agree that they leave "name" players on the field too long after their production falls off. Kubiak seems to place locker room presence and team chemistry over on field production a lot of times.

are they saying they keep them on the field too long after their production falls off... or are they saying they just keep them on the field too long?

Because there was plenty of times last season and the season before where we could've got starters out of the game and used garbage time to develop other players and build depth. If we did that the #2 QB position could've been solved before camp even started and Foster might have not been ran into the ground like he was.

texanhead08
11-10-2013, 02:10 PM
Perhaps you could spend a little time learning about the cap? We are in very good shape and have signed the FAs (ours & others) we wanted for the last two seasons. We should be able to sign any we want this off season within reason.

I just don't feel like we have replaced the free agents we have lost with quality players.

2011
Mario
Demeco
Briesel
Winston

2012
Quinn
Casey
Barwin

Texans are a 3-4 with major holes at LB

We have struggled running the ball for 2yrs now in spite of the fact that we have one of the most productive RB tandems in the league. I expect a lot of players to be released this off season and if Smith whiffs on more draft picks we should be in rebuild mode the next couple of years.

TheMatrix31
11-10-2013, 02:14 PM
I have zero real problems with Rick Smith. That guy has done an amazing job over the years. Of course some moves have panned out and others haven't. This is real life.

eriadoc
11-10-2013, 02:17 PM
I just don't feel like we have replaced the free agents we have lost with quality players.

2011
Mario
Demeco
Briesel
Winston

2012
Quinn
Casey
Barwin

Texans are a 3-4 with major holes at LB

We have struggled running the ball for 2yrs now in spite of the fact that we have one of the most productive RB tandems in the league. I expect a lot of players to be released this off season and if Smith whiffs on more draft picks we should be in rebuild mode the next couple of years.

I agree with this. The Texans run a 3-4, but have never drafted an impact nose tackle. They are extremely weak at LB for a team that puts an extra one ont he field at any given time. They are weak on OL for a team that is supposedly more run oriented than most others in the NFL. Whatever you think about the talent they let go, it's evident they didn't have a sufficient plan to replace that talent. If you draft guys that work out, you either have to keep them or plan for their replacement. The Texans FO has done a crappy job of that, IMO.

As for the cap ... well, I'll just say that Ed Reed makes about the same as Quin this year, so yeah, that cap number looks great. LOL

DocBar
11-10-2013, 02:23 PM
are they saying they keep them on the field too long after their production falls off... or are they saying they just keep them on the field too long?

Because there was plenty of times last season and the season before where we could've got starters out of the game and used garbage time to develop other players and build depth. If we did that the #2 QB position could've been solved before camp even started and Foster might have not been ran into the ground like he was.The bold is what I was referring to. I misread the twatter post.

I agree with both, though.

Kaiser Toro
11-10-2013, 02:26 PM
Interesting time for this to be published, especially with an organization that rarely has leaks.

Change is coming.

texanhead08
11-10-2013, 02:28 PM
Interesting time for this to be published, especially with an organization that rarely has leaks.

Change is coming.


There was a leak in Dec 2010 that Kubiak was gone too and it never happened.

Kaiser Toro
11-10-2013, 02:33 PM
There was a leak in Dec 2010 that Kubiak was gone too and it never happened.

At that time the head coach was not coming off of a mini stroke, and there was no criticism of the interim head coach's defensive methods.

houstonhurricane
11-10-2013, 02:35 PM
Interesting timing, to say the least. There is plenty of blame to go around the entire franchise but I just don't see them letting Kubes go unless it is for purely health reasons...

steelbtexan
11-10-2013, 02:36 PM
I have zero real problems with Rick Smith. That guy has done an amazing job over the years. Of course some moves have panned out and others haven't. This is real life.

What exactly is Rick's job?

He's part of the problem, not as much as Gary, but still part of the problem.

The only time Rick has run a draft and went to the combine on his own was the 2010 draft. (Gary decided to skip the combine for an elective surgery. Sleep apnea) The KJ draft, it was a disaster. This is why I've got little faith in Rick's ability to find and procure talent.

Bulls on Parade
11-10-2013, 02:38 PM
I blame Rick Smith. Shelling out big bucks to extend Matt Schaub, Arian Foster and even Brian Cushing, when he didn't have to. We should have waited until the off-season. If any of them leave then so be it. We've lost good players in free agency before like Mario Williams. Now we have to restructure all of those contracts next off-season. We may release Matt Schaub after June 1.

mussop
11-10-2013, 02:39 PM
On my phone so can't paste the link but there's a slightly fuller article on nfl.com which says the frustration is at a lack of in-game rotation, on the dline in particular leading to them being gassed late in games. Teams are beating us on 4th quarter comebacks consistently so it's hard to disagree. Then again how good is the talent behind the starters??

I told everyone last year, having a smallish NT and no depth on the DL was going to hurt us. But most everyone wanted that elusive #2 WR.

Still having said that I like our options going forward. The early rounds of this coming draft is going to present is with some very interesting choices.

steelbtexan
11-10-2013, 02:42 PM
I blame Rick Smith. Shelling out big bucks to extend Matt Schaub, Arian Foster and even Brian Cushing, when he didn't have to. We should have waited until the off-season. If any of them leave then so be it. We've lost good players in free agency before like Mario Williams. Now we have to restructure all of those contracts next off-season. We may release Matt Schaub after June 1.

^^^^
This

And I dont think Rick is all of that good at drafting outside the 1st rd. That's why the Texans are so lacking in depth.

If Rick gets credit for UDFA Foster, does he get credit for UDFA Keenum?

Playoffs
11-10-2013, 02:55 PM
The interesting part of Rapoport's report is that he said the Texans' front office is "a bit frustrated" with Kubiak and the rest of his coaching staff.

The frustration stems from coaches having too much draft input...Well the "front office" is Rick Smith, so this tells me the owner has somehow told Smith to follow the coaches draft wishes. Which makes a little bit of sense to me in light of the character & injury challenged draft picks that are uncharacteristic of past drafts.

...keeping stars on the field too long. Rapoport elaborated on the last point saying that the front office believes the lack of a defensive-line rotation leads to wearing down late in games.This smells to be as much about Arian Foster's 400+ carries last year as it does about defensive rotation. Both are valid points, imo.

Everybody and their dog said we'd be paying the price for running Foster into the ground.

hradhak
11-10-2013, 02:55 PM
^^^^
This

And I dont think Rick is all of that good at drafting outside the 1st rd. That's why the Texans are so lacking in depth.

If Rick gets credit for UDFA Foster, does he get credit for UDFA Keenum?

I remember reading an article where Foster described the UDFA process. He only signed with the Texans because they offered a 2 year contract. It's not like we thought much of him really. I don't doubt Keenum is in the same boat. We look at these guys as JAGs. If they play well, they stay on the PS or if they're lucky on the active roster.

I don't think much thought really goes into it other than we need X running backs, and we need Y LBs and they sign em up.

texanhead08
11-10-2013, 02:58 PM
I heard the other day where 20% of the players in the league are UDFA so more than people want to admit teams actually find players this way.

thunderkyss
11-10-2013, 03:01 PM
Interesting time for this to be published, especially with an organization that rarely has leaks.

Change is coming.

It is interesting... I don't know what to make of it.


Kubiak is the F.O. He can't be frustrated with himself, & even if he were, he's the guy to fix it.

texanhead08
11-10-2013, 03:08 PM
This seems a lot like the rumors that came out in 2010. The FO is frustrated with Kubes, but the front office is Rick Smith and Gary hired him. Does this make any sense at all ?

Hervoyel
11-10-2013, 03:09 PM
Interesting time for this to be published, especially with an organization that rarely has leaks.

Change is coming.

That's exactly what I thought. For this organization this is how something like this begins. The only leaks the Texans ever have are intentional, planned leaks. I almost feel like I did the week Chris Palmer got sent packing. It's like the frustration is finally getting to the guys who make decisions.

ArlingtonTexan
11-10-2013, 03:10 PM
I heard the other day where 20% of the players in the league are UDFA so more than people want to admit teams actually find players this way.

Teams get 7 draft picks a year. with no misses and all re-signs it would take 8 years to fill out the 53 man roster. Pure numbers dictate that low priority positions and depth have to come from somewhere. The true wins in UDFA are getting starters or superstar from the large of junk that is mostly there.

foster is a huge win for the Texans and if he maintains anything close to what he is doing Keenum can be another.

TheMatrix31
11-10-2013, 03:13 PM
We need some leaks about Joe Marciano, man.

Honoring Earl 34
11-10-2013, 03:16 PM
Wow ... they are also tired of Cabbage patch dolls , Beanie Babies and hula hoops .

bOODRO87
11-10-2013, 03:18 PM
I hope this is true because I hate the way this team is coached. I will still watch them but I'll never be truly excited until Gary is gone.

welsh texan
11-10-2013, 03:28 PM
I hope this is true because I hate the way this team is coached. I will still watch them but I'll never be truly excited until Gary is gone.

You won't be truly excited by a superbowl win with Gary at the helm?

:kubepalm:

Thorn
11-10-2013, 03:28 PM
meh.....whatever. I'll believe change when I see it.

PockyAF
11-10-2013, 03:40 PM
There was a leak in Dec 2010 that Kubiak was gone too and it never happened.
Do you remember who reported that?

badboy
11-10-2013, 03:55 PM
I agree with this. The Texans run a 3-4, but have never drafted an impact nose tackle. They are extremely weak at LB for a team that puts an extra one ont he field at any given time. They are weak on OL for a team that is supposedly more run oriented than most others in the NFL. Whatever you think about the talent they let go, it's evident they didn't have a sufficient plan to replace that talent. If you draft guys that work out, you either have to keep them or plan for their replacement. The Texans FO has done a crappy job of that, IMO.

As for the cap ... well, I'll just say that Ed Reed makes about the same as Quin this year, so yeah, that cap number looks great. LOLThis what I am talking about, fans making claims without giving entire picture. Reed's
2014 cap hit is $3.2 m BUT he can be cut after 2013 season with only $1.3 m dead money opening up about $4 m in cap savings. He was a risk but a relatively cheap one.

Quin 2014 base is only $1 million BECAUSE he also got a signing bonus of $5.25 m giving him $6.25 in his pocket; cap just over $2 million. 2014 & 2015 his cap hit jumps to $5 m but has $6.25 m dead money if cut after 2013 and $4.2 m dead money after 2014.

Quin had 85 T 2010 77 T 2011 and 84 T in 2012 as a Texan.

In 2013 with Detroit Quin has 28 tackles in 8 games that project to 56, his worst ever season. He does have 2 INTs. Reed in two less games has 16 tackles. No I am not pleased with Reed but Quin does not thrill me either.

I was not a Posey fan but fair to say if he had not been injured, we probably would not have drafted Hopkins. We now have seemingly a very good group of receivers. I too want a big Nose and a ILB and have mocked them. However with the other needs, Texans have gone at those needs rather than what you and I want. Team did this with Oline using a 7th on Newton and this addresses your first comment about OL. Texans are not just a run team and the players selected have to play well in this ZBS. Those guys are usually not first rounders. Where would we be if Newton, Brennan Williams and Q had not been injured? Just part of the game.

76Texan
11-10-2013, 03:59 PM
We need some leaks about Joe Marciano, man.

Why don't fans chant "Fire Marciano" at the game?
Does he deserve it?

Texian
11-10-2013, 04:13 PM
What exactly is Rick's job?

Rick is a GM in much the same way Scott Pioli was a GM to Bill Belichick. Belichick trusted Pioli to do the things that Belichick needed him to do. Like Belichick, Gary Kubiak has final say on the 53 man roster. Unlike Belichick, Kubiak can't manage the salary cap or organize a draft. So to answer your question it is Rick's job to do whatever it is Gary needs him to do. Whatever Rick does , he does with Kubiak's blessing. I don't believe it was a coincidence that Rick was asst GM in Denver and knew how Gary wanted things to run before being hired by Houston.

So if the front office is truly angry, they're angry at Smubiak.

TheMatrix31
11-10-2013, 04:14 PM
Why don't fans chant "Fire Marciano" at the game?
Does he deserve it?


I wish they would. All I can do is tweet at the official Texans Twitter incessantly. Fans in the stadium should chant. They probably don't even know his NAME.

Naija Texan
11-10-2013, 04:18 PM
are they saying they keep them on the field too long after their production falls off... or are they saying they just keep them on the field too long?

Because there was plenty of times last season and the season before where we could've got starters out of the game and used garbage time to develop other players and build depth. If we did that the #2 QB position could've been solved before camp even started and Foster might have not been ran into the ground like he was.

Not sure if that is what they meant but I agree. Based on history the only ways for a young player to see significant time on the field, are being a high draft pick at a position of need, injury or being a guy who they really like.

We have no rotation at OLB (Reed and Mercilus are rarely moved out unless injured or garbage time), with Cushing out, it seems like we won't have one at ILB even though Sharpton and Mays both are spotty at coverage duties and before injuries to Schaub, Martin along with our main RBs and Keenum being elevated, Jean and Posey weren't even getting targeted on the field in most cases.

Brice McCain has been horrible but he still gets put out as the nickle corner and in more then a few games is the one who gets targeted.

If I was a front office guy, who brings in talented guys that may or may not get consideration over vets they are better then I'd be frustrated with the coaching too for ignoring guys I thought would help the team for their personal favorites and projects.

Texian
11-10-2013, 04:22 PM
Why don't fans chant "Fire Marciano" at the game?
Does he deserve it?

It might have to do with him being a single Dad with an autistic son. And Joe is not just a good guy in the community he's a great guy in the community. So it's kind of hard to hate on Joe Marciano. IMHO I think Bob McNair has taking a special liking to Joe Marciano.

Wolf
11-10-2013, 04:28 PM
I blame Rick Smith. Shelling out big bucks to extend Matt Schaub, Arian Foster and even Brian Cushing, when he didn't have to. We should have waited until the off-season. If any of them leave then so be it. We've lost good players in free agency before like Mario Williams. Now we have to restructure all of those contracts next off-season. We may release Matt Schaub after June 1.

I think the consensus at the time was "Great Job Rick!" on all three signings.

No one expected Matt to become a turnover machine and complete go Jamarcus Russell on the field. ESP after romo getting his hugh payday

Getting foster and Brian signed was a good thing to keep them locked up ESP with watts contract coming up. No one forecasted foster getting banged up all year and or even Cushing getting his knees taken out.

But hindsight is 20/20

CretorFrigg
11-10-2013, 04:35 PM
I think the consensus at the time was "Great Job Rick!" on all three signings.

No one expected Matt to become a turnover machine and complete go Jamarcus Russell on the field. ESP after romo getting his hugh payday

Getting foster and Brian signed was a good thing to keep them locked up ESP with watts contract coming up. No one forecasted foster getting banged up all year and or even Cushing getting his knees taken out.

But hindsight is 20/20

Rick Smith is getting paid millions of dollars to do his job. If he just went with the general consensus, he's way overpaid, because we could just bring in an average-Joe Texans fan to do the job.

I don't care if it was popular at the time. All I care about is results, and I didn't see that from Rick Smith.

dalemurphy
11-10-2013, 06:17 PM
I don't think there is a gm in the nfl that tells the coaching staff how they must handle gameday player rotation.

I agree with the primary criticism. I just don't see a functional organization having a gm with that level of input... Though, it is a perfectly reasonable conversation and issue to address with coaching staff privately... Just not to demand.

AMartin56
11-10-2013, 06:42 PM
I'm not surprised that our local media didn't report this (because they suck) but I AM a bit surprised that the national media found us relevant enough to bother with for a brief article...good to hear in any case. Kubiak needs to go.

Wolf
11-10-2013, 06:46 PM
Rick Smith is getting paid millions of dollars to do his job. If he just went with the general consensus, he's way overpaid, because we could just bring in an average-Joe Texans fan to do the job.

I don't care if it was popular at the time. All I care about is results, and I didn't see that from Rick Smith.

Again, if not for injuries..we wouldnt be discussing this ( these three players) well edit. Schaub just went AWOL

CretorFrigg
11-10-2013, 07:02 PM
Again, if not for injuries..we wouldnt be discussing this ( these three players) well edit. Schaub just went AWOL

It's Rick Smith's job to sign back-ups as well. Every team suffers from injuries. It's going to happen in the NFL. The good teams have back-ups that are ready to step-up and step in.

As for Schaub's decline, it started way before this year. His decline started at last half of last season. As a GM, you have to recognize that players are going to decline and prepare for them.

amazing80
11-10-2013, 08:08 PM
It's Rick Smith's job to sign back-ups as well. Every team suffers from injuries. It's going to happen in the NFL. The good teams have back-ups that are ready to step-up and step in.

As for Schaub's decline, it started way before this year. His decline started at last half of last season. As a GM, you have to recognize that players are going to decline and prepare for them.

its two fold. rick couldnt just say, matt sucks im not signing him....were going with yates....gary has lots to do with that...at least rick made it so we can cut schaub this off-season

Naija Texan
11-10-2013, 08:38 PM
It might have to do with him being a single Dad with an autistic son. And Joe is not just a good guy in the community he's a great guy in the community. So it's kind of hard to hate on Joe Marciano. IMHO I think Bob McNair has taking a special liking to Joe Marciano.

That would explain a lot. But McNair has to be a business man in regards to this team at some point or he is no better then Jerry Jones. Hook Marciano up with a job at one of his other businesses but this HAS to be Marciano's final season with the team.

SchaubApologist
11-10-2013, 09:04 PM
It might have to do with him being a single Dad with an autistic son. And Joe is not just a good guy in the community he's a great guy in the community. So it's kind of hard to hate on Joe Marciano. IMHO I think Bob McNair has taking a special liking to Joe Marciano.

Wrong, it's quite easy to hate Joe Marciano the ST Coordinator.

I do not care about that other stuff.

CretorFrigg
11-10-2013, 09:07 PM
its two fold. rick couldnt just say, matt sucks im not signing him....were going with yates....gary has lots to do with that...at least rick made it so we can cut schaub this off-season

That's why both have got to go.

Seegara
11-10-2013, 09:23 PM
He should have been replaced years ago so that he wouldn't have had a stress attack.

TEXANRED
11-10-2013, 09:24 PM
Interesting time for this to be published, especially with an organization that rarely has leaks.

Change is coming.

Sounds like Rick Smith attempting to keep his job.

Kaiser Toro
11-10-2013, 09:29 PM
Sounds like Rick Smith attempting to keep his job.

I hope McNair's first move is to ditch him, and then the whole staff.

At a time when the head coach is unhealthy, and a FO source comes after the interim coach with defensive criticism, it shows there is little integrity or control in the FO.

TEXANRED
11-10-2013, 09:29 PM
I have zero real problems with Rick Smith. That guy has done an amazing job over the years. Of course some moves have panned out and others haven't. This is real life.

What has Smith done exacty other than re-upping schaub, signing reed, and subpar draft classes.

eriadoc
11-10-2013, 09:30 PM
I hope McNair's first move is to ditch him, and then the whole staff.

At a time when the head coach is unhealthy, and a FO source comes after the interim coach with defensive criticism, it shows there is little integrity or control in the FO.

I think McNair's lost the team. :D

Kaiser Toro
11-10-2013, 09:32 PM
I think McNair's lost the team. :D

Impossible, they are on the right track.

texanhead08
11-10-2013, 09:35 PM
Sounds like Rick Smith attempting to keep his job.


This is what I meant by the same 2010 scenario. In 2010 talk radio was reporting NFL sources were reporting Kubes was likely to be fired, but Rick Smith wasn't, and I never understood how that could happen when Gary basically tells Rick what to do in the Texans structure.

hradhak
11-10-2013, 09:48 PM
McNair said this was a Super Bowl or bust season. I hope he sticks to his word and brings in a new coaching staff. And Wade Phillips is not a new coaching staff.

Naija Texan
11-10-2013, 09:51 PM
This is what I meant by the same 2010 scenario. In 2010 talk radio was reporting NFL sources were reporting Kubes was likely to be fired, but Rick Smith wasn't, and I never understood how that could happen when Gary basically tells Rick what to do in the Texans structure.

Because Gary really doesn't tell Rick what to do.

The way the power works, is that Rick gives a lot of weight to Kubiak and the other coaches opinions in getting players but still does try to goes about brining in certain players he thinks will help.

You know why it is obvious that Sam Montgomery and Travado Williams were Front Office/Rick Smith picks? Because Wade Phillips doesn't really rotate at the OLB position. Brooks Reed rarely saw the field UNTIL Mario Williams got hurt, the same for Mercilus and we even had two potential rookie OLBs, Justin Tuggle and the released Willie Jefferson, this season that played well in preseason and training camp that only saw playing time in garbage time this season. The Front Office was gunning for change at OLB or new blood, the coaches are fine with who they got.

You see it with this team all too often, DeVier Posey, Brandon Brooks, James Casey before his last two seasons and many others that the Front Office picks up and have to worm their way into the coaches' graces despite being clearly talented and potentially better players then the guys the coaches have playing in front of them.

Rick Smith clearly has a working relationship with Kubiak and other coaches and tries to get guys they would like but people that say or think Kubiak is pulling Rick Smith's strings on EVERY roster move are giving Kubiak more power then he has.

TEXANRED
11-10-2013, 09:59 PM
Because Gary really doesn't tell Rick what to do.

The way the power works, is that Rick gives a lot of weight to Kubiak and the other coaches opinions in getting players but still does try to goes about brining in certain players he thinks will help.

You know why it is obvious that Sam Montgomery and Travado Williams were Front Office/Rick Smith picks? Because Wade Phillips doesn't really rotate at the OLB position. Brooks Reed rarely saw the field UNTIL Mario Williams got hurt, the same for Mercilus and we even had two potential rookie OLBs, Justin Tuggle and the released Willie Jefferson, this season that played well in preseason and training camp that only saw playing time in garbage time this season. The Front Office was gunning for change at OLB or new blood, the coaches are fine with who they got.

You see it with this team all too often, DeVier Posey, Brandon Brooks, James Casey before his last two seasons and many others that the Front Office picks up and have to worm their way into the coaches' graces despite being clearly talented and potentially better players then the guys the coaches have playing in front of them.

Rick Smith clearly has a working relationship with Kubiak and other coaches and tries to get guys they would like but people that say or think Kubiak is pulling Rick Smith's strings on EVERY roster move are giving Kubiak more power then he has. you can't give smith all the credit when things go right and none of the blame when things go wrong. It started when we were in cap hell and dumping winston and briesel and continued with his ineptitude by not being able to replace them. Smith has done nothing but mismanage the cap and continue to miss on draft picks. His time should be done here just like kubiak.

Vinny
11-10-2013, 10:01 PM
I've never liked the get your Coach before you get your GM dynamic. I like a top-down orgainization.

Naija Texan
11-10-2013, 10:38 PM
you can't give smith all the credit when things go right and none of the blame when things go wrong. It started when we were in cap hell and dumping winston and briesel and continued with his ineptitude by not being able to replace them. Smith has done nothing but mismanage the cap and continue to miss on draft picks. His time should be done here just like kubiak.

Wasn't really giving him that much credit, I mentioned he pulled the trigger on getting both Montgomery and Jefferson for all the good that did the team.

I am sick of people bringing up Briesel and Winston. I liked those guys but one was up for a contract and the other was overpaid on a previous contract that kept him here during a time they wanted to secure at least one side of the line. Keeping either means you are hurting your cap more or risk not retaining the likes of proven pro bowlers such as Duane Brown, Arian Foster or Chris Myers. I think a healthy DeMeco Ryans would have been great on this team despite people saying he lost a step or wouldn't fit the scheme, but it was a roster move to free up space. You SHOULD pay your best playmakers to retain them, balancing that with letting talented guys go while working the draft for depth for potential next gen players or just cheap rotation guys while working under the cap is what a real GM's job is.

All that being said, I wouldn't mind seeing him get thrown out either. He and his office have a good eye for talent, especially with UDFAs and street free agents but among their normal off season free agents you can count the ones that had major positive impact on one hand (Antonio Smith, Jonathan Joseph, Daniel Manning and Wade Smith) and his drafting has been a mix bag in some seasons of good finds, busts and guys that blow up once they leave the team's sphere of influence.

Rick Smith doesn't get enough credit for all the good or bad that he and his front office have done for this team. But after a season like this, he really hasn't done enough to not get taken out in the tide should the McNair family clean house of the current coaches.

TEXANRED
11-10-2013, 11:08 PM
Wasn't really giving him that much credit, I mentioned he pulled the trigger on getting both Montgomery and Jefferson for all the good that did the team.

I am sick of people bringing up Briesel and Winston. I liked those guys but one was up for a contract and the other was overpaid on a previous contract that kept him here during a time they wanted to secure at least one side of the line. Keeping either means you are hurting your cap more or risk not retaining the likes of proven pro bowlers such as Duane Brown, Arian Foster or Chris Myers. I think a healthy DeMeco Ryans would have been great on this team despite people saying he lost a step or wouldn't fit the scheme, but it was a roster move to free up space. You SHOULD pay your best playmakers to retain them, balancing that with letting talented guys go while working the draft for depth for potential next gen players or just cheap rotation guys while working under the cap is what a real GM's job is.

All that being said, I wouldn't mind seeing him get thrown out either. He and his office have a good eye for talent, especially with UDFAs and street free agents but among their normal off season free agents you can count the ones that had major positive impact on one hand (Antonio Smith, Jonathan Joseph, Daniel Manning and Wade Smith) and his drafting has been a mix bag in some seasons of good finds, busts and guys that blow up once they leave the team's sphere of influence.

Rick Smith doesn't get enough credit for all the good or bad that he and his front office have done for this team. But after a season like this, he really hasn't done enough to not get taken out in the tide should the McNair family clean house of the current coaches.
My point being is we should have never been put in a situation when you have to dump your starting oline to save cap room. If winston was overpaid that is is Smith's fault cus he negotiated the extension. The more damning point is you dump those guys 3 years ago and you are still unable to find their replacements and you still have no cap room. We trade Ryans and then what, replace him with Brady James, Joe mays, and other scrubs? mean while cushing can't buy a healthy season, you don't even attempt to talk to mario williams and waste a 1st round pick in merciless.

Rick should have been fired just for the Ahman Green signing but now the Reed signing. How's glover doing btw?

you let leech go, you dont replace him
you let winston go, you dont replace him
you let brisiel go, you dont replace him
you let ryans go, you dont replce him
you let williams go, you dont replace him
you let quinn go, you dont replace him
you let barwin go, you dont replace him

you run a 34 defense but have 0 starting nfl quality lb's.

you even extend a 30 yo subpar qb to a 6 year extension.

and did i mention we never seem to have any cap space? it's one thing to suck but its another to be in cap hell and suck.

Vinny
11-10-2013, 11:18 PM
you let leech go, you dont replace him
you let winston go, you dont replace him
you let brisiel go, you dont replace him
you let ryans go, you dont replce him
you let williams go, you dont replace him
you let quinn go, you dont replace him
you let barwin go, you dont replace him

.goes without saying but all 7 of these starters were replaced with players that weren't as good as them (Barwin's a push). Reminds me of the scenario after the Texans first defensive season - I think we were 16th in the league in our inaugural year. We started replacing the aged Vets with draft choices that weren't nearly as good as the players that we let go and we were soon sporting the worst defense in the NFL.

Norg
11-10-2013, 11:21 PM
pfff I blame everybody I always thought lately the FO and RICK SMITH has the final say in the draft and F/a

bottom line the FO has failed from picking so many bust picks the last 3years and bust F/a I don't know why the FO is talking they should be fired 2 I say CLEAN HOUSE !!!!!!!!!!

TEXANRED
11-10-2013, 11:22 PM
goes without saying but all 7 of these starters were replaced with players that weren't as good as them (Barwin's a push). Reminds me of the scenario after the Texans first defensive season - I think we were 16th in the league in our inaugural year. We started replacing the aged Vets with draft choices that weren't nearly as good as the players that we let go and we were soon sporting the worst defense in the NFL.

Funny how history repeats itself. in fact minus the bengals and browns this is the same schedule we went 2-14 in 2005.

Brisco_County
11-11-2013, 01:29 AM
Interesting time for this to be published, especially with an organization that rarely has leaks.

Change is coming.

It's a shot across the bow for Kubiak. It's also evidence that the Sam Montgomery bust is making a big impact internally.

The frustration stems from coaches having too much draft input and keeping stars on the field too long. Rapoport elaborated on the last point saying that the front office believes the lack of a defensive-line rotation leads to wearing down late in games.

Here's how this is meant to be interpreted: "There is a serious problem with the quality of the depth, it is a major factor in these losses, and this particular problem is not the result of the GM's decisions."

And I believe all three points are true.

This 4th quarter fatigue has not been a problem until this season. Even last year, they were rotating pass rushers and linemen. In 2011, the "Next man up" mantra was the result of reliable depth. But this season, Kubiak cut some rookie rotational players (Montgomery, Jefferson, Jones) who have cost valuable roster spots, development time, and a 3rd round pick. That pick was meant to be used for Barwin's replacement.

The FO's critique about the coaches having too much draft input is a statement to Kubiak saying, "If these players cannot stay on the roster, you need to stop listening to the sources that made these recommendations." That interpretation makes a lot of sense if you consider how quickly Kubiak cut Montgomery, indicating that the kid wasn't his idea to begin with.

In a way, they're giving Kubiak a pass by recognizing that much of the fault lies on those advisers, but they're also saying, "We expect you to get your kitchen in order and take ownership of these draft decisions going forward."

HJam72
11-11-2013, 04:50 AM
So Smith is not mad at Smubiak; he's mad at the advisiaks. Smillips has no comment.

Grams
11-11-2013, 07:21 AM
It's Rick Smith's job to sign back-ups as well. Every team suffers from injuries. It's going to happen in the NFL. The good teams have back-ups that are ready to step-up and step in.

As for Schaub's decline, it started way before this year. His decline started at last half of last season. As a GM, you have to recognize that players are going to decline and prepare for them.

It wasn't just Schaub that started to decline last year. The entire team started the week after the bye last year. We were not the same team after the bye. Both the offense and the defense has not been the same since.

Thorn
11-11-2013, 08:49 AM
So Smith is not mad at Smubiak; he's mad at the advisiaks. Smillips has no comment.

Uhh....whut?

BullNation4Life
11-11-2013, 08:54 AM
I think McNair's lost the team. :D

What!?! No way! McNair just has his Ox in a ditch....for the 8th consecutive year....

Problem is THIS particular ox continues to end up in that same ditch and can't stay on it's path....Maybe it's time to put down this ox and get one that can say on the path....

HOU-TEX
11-11-2013, 10:50 AM
Personally, I'd like to know who's idea it was to cut Chris Jones over players like Montgomery, Trevardo, McClain, etc. Epic failure, imo.

cstyle42
11-11-2013, 10:56 AM
Personally, I'd like to know who's idea it was to cut Chris Jones over players like Montgomery, Trevardo, McClain, etc. Epic failure, imo.

Starts with Kubiak he never holds the right players accountable until the media and fans do.

Double Barrel
11-11-2013, 11:20 AM
That's exactly what I thought. For this organization this is how something like this begins. The only leaks the Texans ever have are intentional, planned leaks. I almost feel like I did the week Chris Palmer got sent packing. It's like the frustration is finally getting to the guys who make decisions.

It does have that 2005 feel to it...with the exception that the Texans are still making new records. Of course, it's a rather dubious one this time: first time the franchise has lost 7 games in a row.

It's obvious what needs to be done. What we are seeing with leaks like this is the first tremors of plate tectonics shifting on Kirby. McNair is not going to reveal his hand, but as Texans fans from the beginning, we can sense it. It's in the air, on the wire, and unless they do something squirrelly like win the next 7 games, BIG changes should be coming in 2014.

I hope McNair's first move is to ditch him, and then the whole staff.

At a time when the head coach is unhealthy, and a FO source comes after the interim coach with defensive criticism, it shows there is little integrity or control in the FO.

yep. In the immortal words of the late, great Frank Zappa: "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."

As shocking as the 2013 season is for us fans, I can only imagine what McNair must be thinking right now. He's probably past stage one of grief, denial and isolation. Now he's in stage two: anger. Letting this little nugget of info out is a shot across the bow of Kubiak's ship.

Now on to stage three: bargaining!

Honoring Earl 34
11-11-2013, 11:43 AM
It does have that 2005 feel to it...with the exception that the Texans are still making new records. Of course, it's a rather dubious one this time: first time the franchise has lost 7 games in a row.

It's obvious what needs to be done. What we are seeing with leaks like this is the first tremors of plate tectonics shifting on Kirby. McNair is not going to reveal his hand, but as Texans fans from the beginning, we can sense it. It's in the air, on the wire, and unless they do something squirrelly like win the next 7 games, BIG changes should be coming in 2014.



yep. In the immortal words of the late, great Frank Zappa: "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."

As shocking as the 2013 season is for us fans, I can only imagine what McNair must be thinking right now. He's probably past stage one of grief, denial and isolation. Now he's in stage two: anger. Letting this little nugget of info out is a shot across the bow of Kubiak's ship.

Now on to stage three: bargaining!

My gut instinct says he's getting Sumlin . He'll make a deal with wade to stay on and help out .

I hope Bob is getting mad cause I'm mad at this waste of time and total kluster %#$%^$ not going anywhere , Bob is 25 years older than me . His window , I hope , is smaller than mine for a Super Bowl run .

The game has changed and the Shanny tree has been attacked by pine bark beetles . The NFL and it's rule changes has passed the Shanny , Kubiak way up . A good defense and a fast scoring offense is the NFL today . The coach and QBs are partners on the best teams , with the QB having the ability to run a no huddle . Kubiak and time of possession doesn't matter is you get beat by 21 .

Texian
11-11-2013, 11:58 AM
The way the power works,

Kubiak has final say on 53 man roster, it's in his contract.

Rick Smith is to Gary Kubiak as Scott Pioli was to Bill Belichick. The way Belichick trusted Pioli do what Belichick wanted Pioli to do, Kubiak trust Rick Smith to do what Kubiak needs Smith to do. Smith's decisions have Kubiak's blessings.

It is not a mere coincidence that Rick Smith was an assistant GM with the Denver Broncos and knew exactly how Gary Kubiak wanted business conducted before he was hired by the Houston Texans.

It is not a coincidence that when Bob McNair stated that Bob Kraft was his friend and mentor. Bob also stated that he was using the Patriot model to build his team, that's when he hired Gary Kubiak to be his Bill Belichick and hired Rick Smith to be Gary Kubiak's Scott Pioli.

Double Barrel
11-11-2013, 12:08 PM
My gut instinct says he's getting Sumlin . He'll make a deal with wade to stay on and help out .

I hope Bob is getting mad cause I'm mad at this waste of time and total kluster %#$%^$ not going anywhere , Bob is 25 years older than me . His window , I hope , is smaller than mine for a Super Bowl run .

The game has changed and the Shanny tree has been attacked by pine bark beetles . The NFL and it's rule changes has passed the Shanny , Kubiak way up . A good defense and a fast scoring offense is the NFL today . The coach and QBs are partners on the best teams , with the QB having the ability to run a no huddle . Kubiak and time of possession doesn't matter is you get beat by 21 .

I'm not a big Sumlin fan, but I'll take it. A.B.K. now.

And agree about the Shanny tree. A WCO that cannot beat a blitz is worthless. Most WCO teams invite the blitz, as it is always an opportunity for positive yardage. That blitz is leaving holes to exploit, but obviously need more than a split second of protection to allow it to happen.

And still shaking my damn head that they do not seem to have a max protection package in the playbook. If they do, then huge fail for not bothering to use it.

Runner
11-11-2013, 12:12 PM
I don't see how they could be frustrated with Kubiak. He is pretty much doing the exact same things he has always done. These things have brought him unmitigated praise from the owner and a couple of contact extensions, right?

Texian
11-11-2013, 12:22 PM
I don't see how they could be frustrated with Kubiak. He is pretty much doing the exact same things he has always done. These things have brought him unmitigated praie from the owner and a couple of contact extensions, right?

Would you really expect the owner to be any different in his public comments?

I expect the next public comments from the owner about the head coach to be along the lines of, "We have decided to go in another direction."

HoustonFrog
11-11-2013, 12:28 PM
If this is one across the bow for Gary maybe its meant as a hint more than a warning...as in we can do something for your service here, you should heed the health warnings and decide to hang it up to something less stressful. It would save face for McNair not having to fire the golden boy and everyone gets what they need.

utahmark
11-11-2013, 12:32 PM
deleted

GNTLEWOLF
11-11-2013, 12:42 PM
After all this team and fans have ben through, I can't really se Kubiak being fired now. I wish he was gone, but I have been wishing that since about year two of his reign here. If anything, I expect McNair to give him a 5 year contract extension which would be true to form for this organization.

Brisco_County
11-11-2013, 12:49 PM
Letting this little nugget of info out is a shot across the bow of Kubiak's ship.

Exactly. They're saying to Kubiak: "Take ownership of these draft decisions and vet the coach input thoroughly."

Clearly, Sam Montgomery was not Kubiak's choice. He would still be on the roster for the sake of Kubiak's credibilty.

Playoffs
11-11-2013, 01:24 PM
you let leech go, you dont replace him
you let winston go, you dont replace him
you let brisiel go, you dont replace him
you let ryans go, you dont replce him
you let williams go, you dont replace him
you let quinn go, you dont replace him
you let barwin go, you dont replace him


Leach is rated 22nd/23 FBs... Jones 6th/23.
Winston is rated 69th/75 Ts... Newton 71st/75.
Brisiel is rated 27th/71 Gs... Brooks 30th/71.
Ryans is rated 50th/52 ILBs... Mays+Sharpton ~30th/52.
Williams is rated 12th/38 3-4 OLBs... Mercilus is 33rd & Reed 38th/38.
Quin is rated 17th/85 Ss... Swearing 63rd, Keo 67th, Reed 74th/85.
Connor Barwin is 27th/38 3-4 OLBs... Mercilus is 33rd & Reed 38th/38.

2013 YTD by PFF (http://www.profootballfocus.com/), >25% team snaps

Honoring Earl 34
11-11-2013, 02:18 PM
I'm not a big Sumlin fan, but I'll take it. A.B.K. now.

And agree about the Shanny tree. A WCO that cannot beat a blitz is worthless. Most WCO teams invite the blitz, as it is always an opportunity for positive yardage. That blitz is leaving holes to exploit, but obviously need more than a split second of protection to allow it to happen.

And still shaking my damn head that they do not seem to have a max protection package in the playbook. If they do, then huge fail for not bothering to use it.

What would you do from a marketing angle ?

Texian
11-11-2013, 03:41 PM
Leach is rated 22nd/23 FBs... Jones 6th/23.
Winston is rated 69th/75 Ts... Newton 71st/75.
Brisiel is rated 27th/71 Gs... Brooks 30th/71.
Ryans is rated 50th/52 ILBs... Mays+Sharpton ~30th/52.
Williams is rated 12th/38 3-4 OLBs... Mercilus is 33rd & Reed 38th/38.
Quin is rated 17th/85 Ss... Swearing 63rd, Keo 67th, Reed 74th/85.
Connor Barwin is 27th/38 3-4 OLBs... Mercilus is 33rd & Reed 38th/38.

2013 YTD by PFF (http://www.profootballfocus.com/), >25% team snaps

The error in this thinking is comparing former Texans to today's production. To see how quality and value has deteriorated, compare former Texans last year as a Texan to the current day production of that same position. Example don't compare Winston of today, compare Winston of 2011. That is what you're missing, not what Winston is doing in Arizona today.

Wolf6151
11-11-2013, 03:43 PM
It's amazing that the Texans FO is just now getting frustrated with Kubiak and his staff, the rest of us have been frustrated for years.

Hervoyel
11-11-2013, 05:06 PM
It's amazing that the Texans FO is just now getting frustrated with Kubiak and his staff, the rest of us have been frustrated for years.

Seriously. They're just now getting "frustrated" while many of us have already crossed the desert and reached "resigned indifference" where he's concerned.

Rey
11-11-2013, 05:22 PM
Dline rotation falls on Kollar and Wade.

Which falls on kubiak.

"Hey, I think some of the starters get a bit worn down...let's rotate them a little more and see if that helps"

He's the head coach, not the offensive co-ordinator.

SchaubApologist
11-11-2013, 07:14 PM
The error in this thinking is comparing former Texans to today's production. To see how quality and value has deteriorated, compare former Texans last year as a Texan to the current day production of that same position. Example don't compare Winston of today, compare Winston of 2011. That is what you're missing, not what Winston is doing in Arizona today.

Winston of 2011 was not all that grand.

We cut him because he was overpaid. He signed with KC, and was ousted after one season. His career is coming to an end.

Cutting Winston was one thing I completely agreed with, but I thought Smithiak would address the position appropriately (aka not derek newton)

SchaubApologist
11-11-2013, 07:15 PM
Which falls on kubiak.

"Hey, I think some of the starters get a bit worn down...let's rotate them a little more and see if that helps"

He's the head coach, not the offensive co-ordinator.

lolol, yep... kubiak has his face stuffed so far up his play sheet he has no clue what is going on.

eriadoc
11-11-2013, 07:30 PM
Winston of 2011 was not all that grand.

We cut him because he was overpaid. He signed with KC, and was ousted after one season. His career is coming to an end.

Cutting Winston was one thing I completely agreed with, but I thought Smithiak would address the position appropriately (aka not derek newton)

I've said repeatedly that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks of Winston. That's not the point. The plan for replacing him sucked. They thought they could replace a guy that started every game in his Texans career with a 7th round draft pick and/or the guy behind him that never did unseat him from the job (Butler).

The best part is you see it at lots of positions. What was their replacement plan for Ryans? Trade him away and then what? It's like the underwear gnomes episode of South Park. They haven't got that middle step down. Here's another one - they know damn good and well when Tate's contract is up, so what's their replacement plan for him? They've either painted themselves into a corner to where they have to re-sign him, or they rely on UDFAs to replace a guy they saw fit to spend a 2nd rounder on. That's cost benefit analysis at its finest. When they do have a plan, it's Ed Reed to replace Glover Quin LOL.

They always seem to draft OLBs and TEs, so they definitely have a plan there. The players may or may not pan out, but at least they seem to have a plan. Elsewhere, not so much.

El Tejano
11-11-2013, 07:43 PM
I wish I knew who was responsible for:

Majority of our starters playing only a couple of snaps in preseason

Having player announcements as they enter training camp practices.

When I would see that on the website, I thought we would have a team with no focus this year.

El Tejano
11-11-2013, 07:44 PM
Oh and I'd like to add Bill freakin Cowher to this thread. Yall are welcome.

bckey
11-11-2013, 07:56 PM
What happened to the thread about potential head coaches for 2014?

infantrycak
11-11-2013, 08:20 PM
What happened to the thread about potential head coaches for 2014?

It is in the one titled All Encompassing Fire Kubiak & Replacement thread.

amazing80
11-11-2013, 09:05 PM
It is in the one titled All Encompassing Fire Kubiak & Replacement thread.

you mean the one that doesnt show up and wont work when you find it....shouldve just let it be instead of merging it :bravo:

infantrycak
11-11-2013, 09:11 PM
you mean the one that doesnt show up and wont work when you find it....shouldve just let it be instead of merging it :bravo:

Make an appointment with your optometrist.

If it doesn't show up how can you tell it won't work?

amazing80
11-11-2013, 09:16 PM
Make an appointment with your optometrist.

If it doesn't show up how can you tell it won't work?

runner sent it to me and it gives an error message

and i do have 2 orbital floor fractures right now and high on oxy, so did i miss something?

HoustonFrog
11-11-2013, 09:31 PM
runner sent it to me and it gives an error message

and i do have 2 orbital floor fractures right now and high on oxy, so did i miss something?

I don't see it either. Looks gone.

Exascor
11-11-2013, 09:33 PM
I don't see it either. Looks gone.

Went poof for me too.

steelbtexan
11-11-2013, 09:51 PM
Cant find it.

The Texans FO should've become frustrated after that much celebrated 9-7 2009 season. Included in that season was the most frustrating loss in Texans history. The Monday night loss to Buds Tacks. It let me know that winning meant more to the fanbase than it does to the Texans org.

That loss was harder to take than the Rosencopter. IMHO

Kaiser Toro
11-11-2013, 09:53 PM
It is in the one titled All Encompassing Fire Kubiak & Replacement thread.

For those that cannot find it - http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2247451#post2247451

steelbtexan
11-11-2013, 09:56 PM
For those that cannot find it - http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2247451#post2247451

Says invalid thread, contact admin.

Exascor
11-11-2013, 10:38 PM
For those that cannot find it - http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2247451#post2247451

Thread is dead. Can't see it on tapatalk.

TEXANRED
11-11-2013, 10:42 PM
I can't find that thread either. Why does Icak hate us? Kubiak is that you?:pirate:

kingtexan
11-11-2013, 11:01 PM
I can't find that thread either. Why does Icak hate us? Kubiak is that you?:pirate:

Threads get randomly deleted here all the time. Welcome to TT.

Texan4Ever
11-11-2013, 11:04 PM
I'm going to steer this back on topic. The FO may be frustrated with Kubiak and yes his responsibility is to hold assistants accountable however you can't blame everything on him.

Injuries have hurt this team otherwise our record would be something else. Hell even good teams struggle (e.g. Steelers).

Whether or not we bring back Kubiak is up to McNair & Company to decide. I just hope if we let him go we sure as hell have someone in mind that will commit to us and can bring a different culture to this team.

powda
11-11-2013, 11:07 PM
Why does Icak hate us?

Icak doesn't hate you, your not the police. :)

thunderkyss
11-11-2013, 11:09 PM
I've said repeatedly that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks of Winston. That's not the point. The plan for replacing him sucked. They thought they could replace a guy that started every game in his Texans career with a 7th round draft pick and/or the guy behind him that never did unseat him from the job (Butler).

I don't have a problem with your general idea, except you quoted a post where the argument is about "what anyone thinks of Winston"

One guy is trying to portray Eric as an all-pro & that was not the case.

powda
11-11-2013, 11:25 PM
I don't have a problem with your general idea, except you quoted a post where the argument is about "what anyone thinks of Winston"

One guy is trying to portray Eric as an all-pro & that was not the case.

Winston was a stud run blocker even if he sucked in pass pro and had a penchant for false starts. The point remains : was he worth the money to keep him? The Texans decided he wasn't and all of our attempts to replace him have failed.

infantrycak
11-11-2013, 11:27 PM
Well I don't have an explanation for why some can't see the thread or can't open it. It appears and opens just fine for me. I just stuck it at the top of the forum. Wasn't trying to block access.

Threads get randomly deleted here all the time. Welcome to TT.

No they do not. Rarely are threads deleted and when they are it is intentional. 99% of the time threads disappear because they are merged.

texanhead08
11-11-2013, 11:27 PM
I don't have a problem with your general idea, except you quoted a post where the argument is about "what anyone thinks of Winston"

One guy is trying to portray Eric as an all-pro & that was not the case.


Winston was overpaid and they made a smart move by cutting him, but they were the ones that over paid him to begin with.

HoustonFrog
11-11-2013, 11:45 PM
Well I don't have an explanation for why some can't see the thread or can't open it. It appears and opens just fine for me. I just stuck it at the top of the forum. Wasn't trying to block access.



No they do not. Rarely are threads deleted and when they are it is intentional. 99% of the time threads disappear because they are merged.

Just an update. Don't see it at the top of the page and the link above is showing invalid. Not sure what is going on. Honestly, first time in my long time here I've had the issue.

Brisco_County
11-12-2013, 01:08 AM
Threads get randomly deleted here all the time. Welcome to TT.

Says the guy who hasn't even been here a year.

Hey, let's try to make up some crap to hang on the mods who work here for free. Winning idea. Who wants order in their forums anyway.

Aren't you the guy who thinks it's cool to throw ice at players?

kingtexan
11-12-2013, 06:40 AM
Says the guy who hasn't even been here a year.

Hey, let's try to make up some crap to hang on the mods who work here for free. Winning idea. Who wants order in their forums anyway.

Aren't you the guy who thinks it's cool to throw ice at players?

Anything constructive to add, or you just going to stand pat with that LGBT avatar?

Grams
11-12-2013, 06:52 AM
[QUOTE=infantrycak;2247668]Well I don't have an explanation for why some can't see the thread or can't open it. It appears and opens just fine for me. I just stuck it at the top of the forum. Wasn't trying to block access.
/QUOTE]

Invalid Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

This is what I get trying to open the link.

amazing80
11-12-2013, 07:12 AM
Just an update. Don't see it at the top of the page and the link above is showing invalid. Not sure what is going on. Honestly, first time in my long time here I've had the issue.

still not working for me either.....why **** gotta be complicated :kubepalm:

Rey
11-12-2013, 08:16 AM
On the radio they think it could be rick smith trying to shift blame on the coaches to save his own ass.

Said casserly tried to buddy up with McNair towards the end as well.

Kaiser Toro
11-12-2013, 08:45 AM
Please try the thread now

Surreal McCoy
11-12-2013, 08:50 AM
On the radio they think it could be rick smith trying to shift blame on the coaches to save his own ass.

Said casserly tried to buddy up with McNair towards the end as well.

Bingo. Just like Reed saying 'no one is throwing at me', and Ben Tate thinking we should run the ball more now that Foster is out and he's in a contract year.

Runner
11-12-2013, 08:55 AM
Somebody needs to tell the front office Kubiak is building the team "The Right Way". Throw in some Tom Landry facts too.

That'll show 'em.

TejasTom
11-12-2013, 08:56 AM
Threads get randomly deleted here all the time. Welcome to TT.

...
No they do not. Rarely are threads deleted and when they are it is intentional. 99% of the time threads disappear because they are merged.



Threads aren't deleted when they asked to be deleted. See this hilarious thread: Please Delete (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90504)

Exascor
11-12-2013, 09:06 AM
Please try the thread nowStill isn't working for me. "Invalid Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

DocBar
11-12-2013, 02:33 PM
Somebody needs to tell the front office Kubiak is building the team "The Right Way". Throw in some Tom Landry facts too.

That'll show 'em.
And he's being smart about it, too

Playoffs
11-12-2013, 02:56 PM
Please try the thread now

It's visible now. Did not come up in search earlier... must have been hidden for a bit. Thanks.

In trying to go to the original closed thread: http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64514

Chrome blocks it..
Danger: Malware Ahead!
Google Chrome has blocked access to this page on www.texanstalk.com.
Content from planetsmilies.net, a known malware distributor, has been inserted into this web page. Visiting this page now is very likely to infect your computer with malware.
Malware is malicious software that causes things like identity theft, financial loss, and permanent file deletion.

May be what what the issue was... ?

It was time for a new one anyway, which is here: The All Encompassing FIRE KUBIAK & REPLACEMENT thread (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2247451#post2247451)

Hervoyel
11-12-2013, 03:00 PM
Has McNair ever had genuine expectations before where the Texans performance was concerned? I ask this because in the past he's always been such a patient, "warm and fuzzy" kind of owner but the team is only what? 12 years old?

When McNair started this he knew nothing. All he knew was that it was going to take them a long, long time to build a winning franchise. Maybe even 4-5 years. He did 4-12, he did 5-11, and he did 7-9. The whole time he was supportive and patient and methodical. Then 2-14 happened and heads rolled. None of it was done in the press and it all seemed to take so very, very long back then. I remember the Capers/Casserly "purge" taking place in slow motion after the 2005 season but the heads started rolling with Palmer after what? Two weeks?.

Who fires their OC after two weeks?

The whole year Bob said the right things and got Dan Reeves to come in and be his independent football advisor and when it was all done he flushed the staff (with the exception of Marciano) and hired Gary.

Gary begat Rick and we started this process all over. Bob McNair has had the patience of a Saint in the years since. If he's got any ink then "Slow and Steady Wins the Race" must be scrolled across his back in big letters. He gave Capers 4 years. He's given Kubiak 8. He's had one real meltdown (6-10) in that time and taken matters into his own hands one (Wade Phillips hiring) that we know of.

Now 2013 happens and Uncle Bob is talking Super Bowl or Bust in the preseason. he's got Ed Reed bringing the wisdom and all of his best players are contracted up and healthy. Preseason looks like things are going to be a slam dunk and then then we come out and pull an (admittedly ugly) 2-0 start.

Since then it's been losses, bad records, injuries, inexplicable decisions from his coaching staff, and terrible play from people who were not just expected to play well but who were certain to play well. More contracts given out to guys who went down with injuries or just mailed it in after getting "theirs".

Every man has his limit.

First we see Schaub left on the bench for Keenum, then we see a bunch of rookies sent packing before the KC game. Now we got Ed Reed being given his walking papers by a team that never admitted a mistake it could possibly get away with pretending never happened while someone is telling reporters that the front office is upset with the coaches?

We always assume that Uncle Bob is this guy who's so different from Jerry Jones or Bud Adams. We've watched his team for 12 years as he didn't meddle or apply too much pressure on anyone to do anything. he just sat there with that silly smile on his face waiting to get his Lombardi Trophy.

I think McNair is about to "Hulk Out". I think he's fixing to start firing coaches like a big dog. He's not getting what he paid for and he'll bust it all up after this season whether the Texans turn it around or not. Too much has gone wrong for McNair to continue to hold the rope. We're getting a new coach after this season is over. I'm sure of it.

Wolf
11-12-2013, 04:16 PM
Grand plan is to shake this team up now...we have a 2017 super bowl to win in Houston:joker:

houstonspartan
11-12-2013, 04:24 PM
Has McNair ever had genuine expectations before where the Texans performance was concerned? I ask this because in the past he's always been such a patient, "warm and fuzzy" kind of owner but the team is only what? 12 years old?

When McNair started this he knew nothing. All he knew was that it was going to take them a long, long time to build a winning franchise. Maybe even 4-5 years. He did 4-12, he did 5-11, and he did 7-9. The whole time he was supportive and patient and methodical. Then 2-14 happened and heads rolled. None of it was done in the press and it all seemed to take so very, very long back then. I remember the Capers/Casserly "purge" taking place in slow motion after the 2005 season but the heads started rolling with Palmer after what? Two weeks?.

Who fires their OC after two weeks?

The whole year Bob said the right things and got Dan Reeves to come in and be his independent football advisor and when it was all done he flushed the staff (with the exception of Marciano) and hired Gary.

Gary begat Rick and we started this process all over. Bob McNair has had the patience of a Saint in the years since. If he's got any ink then "Slow and Steady Wins the Race" must be scrolled across his back in big letters. He gave Capers 4 years. He's given Kubiak 8. He's had one real meltdown (6-10) in that time and taken matters into his own hands one (Wade Phillips hiring) that we know of.

Now 2013 happens and Uncle Bob is talking Super Bowl or Bust in the preseason. he's got Ed Reed bringing the wisdom and all of his best players are contracted up and healthy. Preseason looks like things are going to be a slam dunk and then then we come out and pull an (admittedly ugly) 2-0 start.

Since then it's been losses, bad records, injuries, inexplicable decisions from his coaching staff, and terrible play from people who were not just expected to play well but who were certain to play well. More contracts given out to guys who went down with injuries or just mailed it in after getting "theirs".

Every man has his limit.

First we see Schaub left on the bench for Keenum, then we see a bunch of rookies sent packing before the KC game. Now we got Ed Reed being given his walking papers by a team that never admitted a mistake it could possibly get away with pretending never happened while someone is telling reporters that the front office is upset with the coaches?

We always assume that Uncle Bob is this guy who's so different from Jerry Jones or Bud Adams. We've watched his team for 12 years as he didn't meddle or apply too much pressure on anyone to do anything. he just sat there with that silly smile on his face waiting to get his Lombardi Trophy.

I think McNair is about to "Hulk Out". I think he's fixing to start firing coaches like a big dog. He's not getting what he paid for and he'll bust it all up after this season whether the Texans turn it around or not. Too much has gone wrong for McNair to continue to hold the rope. We're getting a new coach after this season is over. I'm sure of it.

Herv, that all sounds good, and I agree with what you want to happen, but, you seem to be assuming a lot that may not be there. McNair has shown via his actions where his priorities lie. He wants a team where everyone is nice and gets along. Nothing wrong with that, necessarily; I just think it's unrealistic sometimes when it comes to sports.

McNair wants a team like the Packers or Steelers, that can win with nice people running it. And, unfortunately, I think he's going to hold out until he gets it.

I held out massive hope in 2010 that we would see a coaching change. That was the perfect scenario. Instead, our coach got an extension. This time I'm preparing myself that we will have the same coach for many more years.

Hervoyel
11-12-2013, 07:50 PM
Herv, that all sounds good, and I agree with what you want to happen, but, you seem to be assuming a lot that may not be there. McNair has shown via his actions where his priorities lie. He wants a team where everyone is nice and gets along. Nothing wrong with that, necessarily; I just think it's unrealistic sometimes when it comes to sports.

McNair wants a team like the Packers or Steelers, that can win with nice people running it. And, unfortunately, I think he's going to hold out until he gets it.

I held out massive hope in 2010 that we would see a coaching change. That was the perfect scenario. Instead, our coach got an extension. This time I'm preparing myself that we will have the same coach for many more years.

I don't know. It's not just what I want to happen. It's actually what I think will happen. I think McNair has his limit and I think he's got to feel a little bit like a chump right now. He was genuinely confident that the Texans were going to perform this year and his team left him hanging out there looking a bit like a fool for thinking that they were going to make some real noise this year.

I don't think he's been the one pushing for changes. I think his "underlings" are desperately trying to rearrange the deck chairs because they sense something. They've never been this "reactive" in all the time Kubiak has been here. Maybe that one year when Richard Smith released the hounds and saved the season (if you can call 8-8 "saved") back in 2007 (or was it 2008? I don't remember) That should tell us something too.

I think he'll take the opportunity to clean house. I really do.

DocBar
11-12-2013, 10:46 PM
I don't know. It's not just what I want to happen. It's actually what I think will happen. I think McNair has his limit and I think he's got to feel a little bit like a chump right now. He was genuinely confident that the Texans were going to perform this year and his team left him hanging out there looking a bit like a fool for thinking that they were going to make some real noise this year.

I don't think he's been the one pushing for changes. I think his "underlings" are desperately trying to rearrange the deck chairs because they sense something. They've never been this "reactive" in all the time Kubiak has been here. Maybe that one year when Richard Smith released the hounds and saved the season (if you can call 8-8 "saved") back in 2007 (or was it 2008? I don't remember) That should tell us something too.

I think he'll take the opportunity to clean house. I really do.In 6 weeks, it will happen. At least on the coaching level. Not sure how McNair feels about Smith.

houstonspartan
11-13-2013, 01:37 AM
I don't know. It's not just what I want to happen. It's actually what I think will happen. I think McNair has his limit and I think he's got to feel a little bit like a chump right now. He was genuinely confident that the Texans were going to perform this year and his team left him hanging out there looking a bit like a fool for thinking that they were going to make some real noise this year.

I don't think he's been the one pushing for changes. I think his "underlings" are desperately trying to rearrange the deck chairs because they sense something. They've never been this "reactive" in all the time Kubiak has been here. Maybe that one year when Richard Smith released the hounds and saved the season (if you can call 8-8 "saved") back in 2007 (or was it 2008? I don't remember) That should tell us something too.

I think he'll take the opportunity to clean house. I really do.

Agree that they've never been this "reactive."

I don't know. I see your point, and want to agree with you, but, something about this season is not sitting well with that theory. For some reason, I think Kubiak getting sick and Cushing's injury will factor into not many changes.

Hope I'm wrong.

srrono
11-13-2013, 01:46 AM
Threads aren't deleted when they asked to be deleted. See this hilarious thread: Please Delete (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90504)

Thanks a lot for that link Buddy :overreact:

Texans_Chick
11-13-2013, 08:23 AM
Here's my article on subject.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/11/report-texans-front-office-frustrated-with-coaching-staff/

McClain says in chat 1 that front office wouldn't throw under bus publicly 2 Rick Smith isn't going anywhere even if Kubiak canned. Doesn't given reasons, likely relationship with McNairs/contract extension.

What has Rick Smith ever accomplished? You might think the game has passed the coaches by, but Smith has done nothing ever in NFL.

Hervoyel
11-13-2013, 09:37 AM
Here's my article on subject.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/11/report-texans-front-office-frustrated-with-coaching-staff/

McClain says in chat 1 that front office wouldn't throw under bus publicly 2 Rick Smith isn't going anywhere even if Kubiak canned. Doesn't given reasons, likely relationship with McNairs/contract extension.

What has Rick Smith ever accomplished? You might think the game has passed the coaches by, but Smith has done nothing ever in NFL.

Whenever I see the GM and "Front Office" try and take more control over the organization from the coaching staff I'm reminded of how Ladd Herzog got Bum Phillips fired and worked his way into being "the power" in the Houston Oilers organization. When an egomaniac who knows nothing about football gets control of an NFL franchise you get the Houston Oilers circa 1980-1988 experience. In short "Chaos" while the GM flails around hiring stooges who don't threaten him.

No thanks. McNair won't but he should fire them both. Then he should go find himself a real, tested GM who should begin the coach hunt.

houstonspartan
11-13-2013, 10:45 AM
Here's my article on subject.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/11/report-texans-front-office-frustrated-with-coaching-staff/

McClain says in chat 1 that front office wouldn't throw under bus publicly 2 Rick Smith isn't going anywhere even if Kubiak canned. Doesn't given reasons, likely relationship with McNairs/contract extension.

What has Rick Smith ever accomplished? You might think the game has passed the coaches by, but Smith has done nothing ever in NFL.

Lol. Steph, I like a lot of your stuff, but, just is just another veiled defense of Kubiak. You clearly don't want him fired, for any reason. Ok, I get it.

Not saying that Smith is not accountable. But I am saying that his drafts have been fairly decent. What happens to those draft picks once they get in the door are all on the head coach.

Why in the world can't we just let Kubiak go already! Why are we so attached to this guy? Jesus.

Exascor
11-13-2013, 11:21 AM
Not saying that Smith is not accountable. But I am saying that his drafts have been fairly decent. What happens to those draft picks once they get in the door are all on the head coach. So basically even though you say Smith is accountable, you are saying GMs have no accountability. They pick these awesome players and the coaches either coach them up or coach them down?

When you do draft good players it's the GMs job to keep them. He failed to keep 3 of 4 really good players from the excellent 2006 draft and hasn't been very good at keeping young players since. IMO Smith is now trying to shift blame to Kubiak & Phillips for his failed draft picks in an attempt to keep his job. They are in bed together and should be tossed out together. McNair's only hire should be GM. GM should get to pick the HC (with McNair having final say).


Rick Smith's drafts:
2007 was bad. Nobody left on the roster.
2008 was Duane Brown and maybe Slaton. 1 left on roster.
2009 was solid. Only Brian Cushing left on roster.
2010 is debatable. I'd say average at best. 5 left on roster.
2011 was JJ Watt and maybe Brooks Reed. 6 left on roster.
2012 is TBD but not looking very good. 7 left on roster.
2013 is TBD but looking average. 2 left on roster.

Just for reference here are all the picks:
2007
1/10 (from Atlanta) Amobi Okoye Defensive tackle Louisville
3/73 Jacoby Jones* Wide receiver Lane
4/123 (from New Orleans) Fred Bennett Cornerback South Carolina
5/144 Brandon Harrison Safety Stanford
5/163 (from New Orleans) Brandon Frye Offensive tackle Virginia Tech
6/183 Kasey Studdard Offensive guard Texas
7/218 Zac Diles Linebacker Kansas State

2008
1/26 (from Baltimore) Duane Brown Offensive tackle Virginia Tech
3/79 Antwaun Molden Cornerback Eastern Kentucky
3/89 (from Baltimore) Steve Slaton Running back West Virginia
4/118 Xavier Adibi Linebacker Virginia Tech
5/151 Frank Okam Defensive tackle Texas
6/173 (from Baltimore) Dominique Barber Safety Minnesota
7/223 Alex Brink Quarterback Washington State

2009
1/15 Brian Cushing Linebacker Southern California
2/46 Connor Barwin Defensive end Cincinnati
3/77 Antoine Caldwell Center Alabama
4/112 Glover Quin Cornerback New Mexico
4/122 (from Minnesota) Anthony Hill Tight end North Carolina State
5/152 James Casey Tight end Rice
6/188 Brice McCain Cornerback Utah
7/223 Troy Nolan Safety Arizona State

2010
1/20 Kareem Jackson Cornerback Alabama
2/58 (from New England) Ben Tate Running back Auburn
3/81 Earl Mitchell Defensive tackle Arizona
4/102 (from Kansas City) Darryl Sharpton Linebacker Miami (FL)
4/118 Garrett Graham Tight end Wisconsin
5/144 (from Kansas City) Sherrick McManis Cornerback Northwestern
6/187 Shelley Smith Offensive guard Colorado State
6/197 (from San Diego) Trindon Holliday Wide receiver LSU
7/227 Dorin Dickerson Tight end Pittsburgh

2011
1/11 J. J. Watt Defensive End Wisconsin
2/42 Brooks Reed Linebacker Arizona
2/60 (from New England) Brandon Harris Cornerback Miami (FL)
4/127 (from Washington) Rashad Carmichael Cornerback Virginia Tech
5/144 (from Washington) Shiloh Keo Safety Idaho
5/152 (from Washington) T. J. Yates Quarterback North Carolina
7/214 Derek Newton Offensive tackle Arkansas State
7/254 Cheta Ozougwu Defensive end Rice

2012
1/26 Whitney Mercilus Linebacker Illinois
3/68 (from Tampa Bay) DeVier Posey Wide Receiver Ohio State
3/76 (from Philadelphia) Brandon Brooks Offensive Guard Miami (OH)
4/99 (from Tampa Bay via Philadelphia) Ben Jones Center Georgia
4/121 Keshawn Martin Wide Receiver Michigan State
4/126 (from New England via Denver and Tampa Bay) Jared Crick Defensive End Nebraska
5/161 Randy Bullock Kicker Texas A&M
6/195 Nick Mondek Offensive Tackle Purdue

2013
1/27 DeAndre Hopkins Wide Receiver Clemson
2/57 D.J. Swearinger Safety South Carolina
3/89 Brennan Williams Offensive Tackle North Carolina
3/95 (compensatory selection) Sam Montgomery Defensive End LSU
4/124 Trevardo Williams Defensive End Connecticut
6/176 (from Tennessee via Minnesota, Arizona, and Oakland) David Quessenberry Offensive Tackle San Jose State
6/195 Alan Bonner Wide Receiver Jacksonville State
6/198 (from Atlanta via St. Louis) Chris Jones Defensive Tackle Bowling Green
6/201 (compensatory selection) Ryan Griffin Tight End Connecticut

Texans_Chick
11-13-2013, 10:56 PM
Lol. Steph, I like a lot of your stuff, but, just is just another veiled defense of Kubiak. You clearly don't want him fired, for any reason. Ok, I get it.

Not saying that Smith is not accountable. But I am saying that his drafts have been fairly decent. What happens to those draft picks once they get in the door are all on the head coach.

Why in the world can't we just let Kubiak go already! Why are we so attached to this guy? Jesus.


???

"Veiled" meaning DIDN'T SAY THAT ANYWHERE IN THE BLOG POST.

I'm good with Kubiak going if the replacement is better option. My appetite for change completely dependent on quality of replacement.

But as for Rick Smith, I see nothing he brings to the table. ZERO. He was hired as a guy who knew Denver way. Green/Reed free agent contracts were jokes, and '10 was a disaster because they had no experience in secondary and wasted a good offense. Why should anyone listen to him about anything? Wade Phillips has tube socks older than the time he was in the NFL. He has no decision making experience other than the Texans.

thunderkyss
11-13-2013, 11:09 PM
The point remains : was he worth the money to keep him? The Texans decided he wasn't and all of our attempts to replace him have failed.

No one's arguing that. We all agree.

Lucky
11-13-2013, 11:12 PM
What has Rick Smith ever accomplished? You might think the game has passed the coaches by, but Smith has done nothing ever in NFL.
Absolutely. These guys came in together and should leave the same way.

And they most definitely should leave.

Texan_Bill
11-13-2013, 11:13 PM
Lol. Steph, I like a lot of your stuff, but, just is just another veiled defense of Kubiak. You clearly don't want him fired, for any reason. Ok, I get it.

Not saying that Smith is not accountable. But I am saying that his drafts have been fairly decent. What happens to those draft picks once they get in the door are all on the head coach.

Why in the world can't we just let Kubiak go already! Why are we so attached to this guy? Jesus.

???

"Veiled" meaning DIDN'T SAY THAT ANYWHERE IN THE BLOG POST.

I'm good with Kubiak going if the replacement is better option. My appetite for change completely dependent on quality of replacement.

But as for Rick Smith, I see nothing he brings to the table. ZERO. He was hired as a guy who knew Denver way. Green/Reed free agent contracts were jokes, and '10 was a disaster because they had no experience in secondary and wasted a good offense. Why should anyone listen to him about anything? Wade Phillips has tube socks older than the time he was in the NFL. He has no decision making experience other than the Texans.

LOL!! Steph is a T-Sip.

She'd have Mack Brown as the Texans next head coach. If not Mack, Fred. Unfortunately Darryl's not available..:kitten:

Lucky
11-13-2013, 11:16 PM
I'm good with Kubiak going if the replacement is better option. My appetite for change completely dependent on quality of replacement.
If? Why on earth do you not think the Texans couldn't attract a quality replacement? There is still a lot of star quality on this team. Holes? Yes. But the building blocks are there. Good coaches will jump at the chance to be here.

thunderkyss
11-13-2013, 11:20 PM
Somebody needs to tell the front office Kubiak is building the team "The Right Way". Throw in some Tom Landry facts too.

That'll show 'em.

I expect greatness & Super Bowls just like everybody else. At the same time, from the Jaguars to the Browns.... none of those teams are considered elite. They've had their share of "success" we've had ours. The cycle of winning & losing continues.

We're going to have our good years & we're going to have our bad years. In the future I hope our good years last longer & our bad years shorter. Hopefully our high points get higher & our low points don't get as low.

It would have been nice if our high point culminated in a Super Bowl appearance, like the 49ers & spanned 3 years, like the 49ers. I'd have taken a Super Bowl victory like the Saints in their 2 good years at a time cycle.... but we didn't. It is what it is.

We'll see what Bob does next & we'll see how that effects the cycle. It might drop us back down, like the Dolphins, the Bills, the Browns, the Lions (who appear to be on a good year, which means they'll fire everyone & start all over again). But hopefully it'll lead us to many good years to come.

I honestly don't know what the right move will be. I wouldn't be upset if he fired Kubiak & brought in a completely new coaching staff. I wouldn't be upset if he got rid of the GM & rebuilt the talent acquisition part of the organization. I wouldn't be upset if he brought everyone back & had another go at it.

We'll see.

infantrycak
11-13-2013, 11:31 PM
If? Why on earth do you not think the Texans couldn't attract a quality replacement? There is still a lot of star quality on this team. Holes? Yes. But the building blocks are there. Good coaches will jump at the chance to be here.

I definitely think they can but I will say some of the names which are thrown around I do not believe would be an improvement. Firing Kubiak seems to make the world rosy for some. To me the homework assignment isn't ready to grade until we see the replacement.

Lucky
11-13-2013, 11:44 PM
Firing Kubiak seems to make the world rosy for some.
Firing Kubiak is the first step. Yes, McNair has to find the right replacement. But fear of a mistake is no reason to continue on with the mistake that's here.

Runner
11-13-2013, 11:48 PM
I expect greatness & Super Bowls just like everybody else. At the same time, from the Jaguars to the Browns.... none of those teams are considered elite. They've had their share of "success" we've had ours. The cycle of winning & losing continues.

We're going to have our good years & we're going to have our bad years. In the future I hope our good years last longer & our bad years shorter. Hopefully our high points get higher & our low points don't get as low.

It would have been nice if our high point culminated in a Super Bowl appearance, like the 49ers & spanned 3 years, like the 49ers. I'd have taken a Super Bowl victory like the Saints in their 2 good years at a time cycle.... but we didn't. It is what it is.

We'll see what Bob does next & we'll see how that effects the cycle. It might drop us back down, like the Dolphins, the Bills, the Browns, the Lions (who appear to be on a good year, which means they'll fire everyone & start all over again). But hopefully it'll lead us to many good years to come.

I honestly don't know what the right move will be. I wouldn't be upset if he fired Kubiak & brought in a completely new coaching staff. I wouldn't be upset if he got rid of the GM & rebuilt the talent acquisition part of the organization. I wouldn't be upset if he brought everyone back & had another go at it.

We'll see.

Good one.

For years of 8-8, 8-8, 9-7, 6-10 you were telling us Negative Nellie's that slow and steady growth guaranteed a decade of playoff appearances once that plateau was reached. We just didn't see the light.

It's weird that eight years have netted the same two playoffs appearances that a rapid turnaround would have been "limited" to according to that theory.

I'm thinking the Texans would benefit by speeding up the process a little.

Runner
11-13-2013, 11:51 PM
I definitely think they can but I will say some of the names which are thrown around I do not believe would be an improvement. Firing Kubiak seems to make the world rosy for some. To me the homework assignment isn't ready to grade until we see the replacement.

I don't think there has ever been a single coach ever named on this board that one group or another couldn't logically "prove" was worse than Kubiak. Would some of them be a bad choice? Certainly. I still have to believe that there is someone, somewhere, that might actually be better than average and be an upgrade.

Runner
11-13-2013, 11:52 PM
Firing Kubiak is the first step. Yes, McNair has to find the right replacement. But fear of a mistake is no reason to continue on with the mistake that's here.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

This isn't change for change's sake. It's change because change is necessary to move forward.

thunderkyss
11-14-2013, 01:47 AM
Not saying that Smith is not accountable. But I am saying that his drafts have been fairly decent. What happens to those draft picks once they get in the door are all on the head coach.



But I thought the coaches had too much influence on the draft?

thunderkyss
11-14-2013, 01:56 AM
Good one.

For years of 8-8, 8-8, 9-7, 6-10 you were telling us Negative Nellie's that slow and steady growth guaranteed a decade of playoff appearances once that plateau was reached. We just didn't see the light.


I still believe it. But I don't think we've been watching slow & steady growth.

How has this team improved over the last two off-seasons? We took a few stabs, but nothing that's panned out. I think Texian is more right than not about the salary cap issues. I just don't believe his reasoning.

Brisco_County
11-14-2013, 02:00 AM
I think Kubiak is actually a pretty good coach, but the major flaw of this team has always been personnel decisions. The execution of Kubiak's schemes is limited by mediocre talent or lack of depth, specifically at the offensive line, and much of that problem is owned by Kubiak. I wrote in another thread that Kubiak's best personnel decisions have been the result of process, like Foster and Keenum. His worst ones were based on his impressions or evaluations, like Chris Brown and numerous linemen. None of us really know the balance of influence between Kubiak and Smith on draft decisions, but Smith has just pointed the finger at Kubiak, and that's a reliable indication of who's in the hot seat.

Realistically, I think the best solution is for McNair to conduct a critical review of his organization as it relates to scouting and personnel rather than interviewing new coaches. The benefits of keeping Kubiak -- as unpopular as that is around here -- is 1) He has an opportunity to maximize his best skillset as a QB coach by developing Keenum, and 2) The FO has already assessed Kubiak's strengths and weaknesses, and you can account for the weaknesses with supplemental staff. For an owner, having an accurate assessment of your manager's strengths and weaknesses is essential, and you can avoid the long and painful assessment period that comes with a replacement head coach.

I know that people have this idea that a championship head coach is one who simply executes every responsibility of his role better than his peers. The truth is that people who stand out among their peers only excel at two or three skills. A good owner knows how to set up that manager for success while accounting for and supplementing that manager's mediocrities. With a record of 12-4 last season, and the endorsement of some of the best quarterbacks to ever play in the NFL, I think Kubiak can be set up for success. That's hard for a lot of fans to accept after this season, but a plague of injuries and a QB meltdown can't be pinned entirely on the coach. That's what fans have the hardest time struggling with: Sometimes injuries and circumstance can tank a season, and there is no one to fire.

Runner
11-14-2013, 07:06 AM
I still believe it. But I don't think we've been watching slow & steady growth.

How has this team improved over the last two off-seasons? We took a few stabs, but nothing that's panned out. I think Texian is more right than not about the salary cap issues. I just don't believe his reasoning.

Of course you still believe. You have your reality distortion glasses on, and you are changing the argument. The theory was that slow and steady growth leading to the first playoff appearance was what mattered:

1) If the Texans have slow and and steady improvement - the Texans did this for years
2) When the Texans finally reach the playoffs - the Texans have made the playoffs
3) Then the Texans will be in the playoffs for a decade - I may be a bit premature since the team isn't mathematically eliminated, but I think the 2-7 Texans aren't making the playoffs this year.

You can toss out your standard, "Boy are you going to be surprised when the Texans win out and make the playoffs this year" post, but I'm talking about this football season, not a fictional future history of this season.

Texian
11-14-2013, 10:50 AM
But as for Rick Smith, I see nothing he brings to the table. ZERO. He was hired as a guy who knew Denver way. Green/Reed free agent contracts were jokes, and '10 was a disaster because they had no experience in secondary and wasted a good offense. Why should anyone listen to him about anything? Wade Phillips has tube socks older than the time he was in the NFL. He has no decision making experience other than the Texans.

Correct. It is no coincidence that Rick Smith was an Asst GM in DENVER who knew how Gary Kubiak wanted things to run in Houston before Smith was hired by the Texans. It also no coincidence that the Texans didn't really talk to anyone else about the position except Smith. This was all Gary's doing and pattern of behavior in the way Kubiak does business (Bush) that we have now come to learn.

Double Barrel
11-14-2013, 11:15 AM
This isn't change for change's sake. It's change because change is necessary to move forward.

yep. One of my all-time favorite quotes is right in line with you:

“Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.”
~ Frank Zappa

http://www.thebeerdrifter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/frank-zappa.jpg

Rey
11-14-2013, 11:51 AM
There are still people defending kubiak and saying he should have a job?

Not knowing if the replacement will be better is about the weakest thing I've heard. Give me a break.

When you guys go to sleep tonight if you find yourself in an uncomfortable position, just stay there. Don't wanna risk the next position being even worse. Just keep waking up with that same pain in your neck. Maybe eventually you'll just get used to it.

bOODRO87
11-14-2013, 11:55 AM
I think Kubiak is actually a pretty good coach, but the major flaw of this team has always been personnel decisions. The execution of Kubiak's schemes is limited by mediocre talent or lack of depth, specifically at the offensive line, and much of that problem is owned by Kubiak. I wrote in another thread that Kubiak's best personnel decisions have been the result of process, like Foster and Keenum. His worst ones were based on his impressions or evaluations, like Chris Brown and numerous linemen. None of us really know the balance of influence between Kubiak and Smith on draft decisions, but Smith has just pointed the finger at Kubiak, and that's a reliable indication of who's in the hot seat.

Realistically, I think the best solution is for McNair to conduct a critical review of his organization as it relates to scouting and personnel rather than interviewing new coaches. The benefits of keeping Kubiak -- as unpopular as that is around here -- is 1) He has an opportunity to maximize his best skillset as a QB coach by developing Keenum, and 2) The FO has already assessed Kubiak's strengths and weaknesses, and you can account for the weaknesses with supplemental staff. For an owner, having an accurate assessment of your manager's strengths and weaknesses is essential, and you can avoid the long and painful assessment period that comes with a replacement head coach.

I know that people have this idea that a championship head coach is one who simply executes every responsibility of his role better than his peers. The truth is that people who stand out among their peers only excel at two or three skills. A good owner knows how to set up that manager for success while accounting for and supplementing that manager's mediocrities. With a record of 12-4 last season, and the endorsement of some of the best quarterbacks to ever play in the NFL, I think Kubiak can be set up for success. That's hard for a lot of fans to accept after this season, but a plague of injuries and a QB meltdown can't be pinned entirely on the coach. That's what fans have the hardest time struggling with: Sometimes injuries and circumstance can tank a season, and there is no one to fire.


We were 12-4 because we beat bad teams. Denver was still in the process of creating chemistry. Baltimore didn't have Ray and Suggs was just coming back from his Achilles. I don't think Chicago is that good of a team. Detroit had chances to seal the game but couldn't after Schaub's interception. There's really nothing to be proud about because any time a well coached, above average QB-led team came to play, we got SMOKED. Kubiak is not a good coach. He's not terrible, but he's certainly not good. He surrounds himself with bad personnel. I don't know what else you need to see.

Texian
11-14-2013, 12:02 PM
We were 12-4 because we beat bad teams. Denver was still in the process of creating chemistry. Baltimore didn't have Ray and Suggs was just coming back from his Achilles. I don't think Chicago is that good of a team. Detroit had chances to seal the game but couldn't after Schaub's interception. There's really nothing to be proud about because any time a well coached, above average QB-led team came to play, we got SMOKED. Kubiak is not a good coach. He's not terrible, but he's certainly not good. He surrounds himself with bad personnel. I don't know what else you need to see.

I think history is fairly clear that the Texans have had difficulties with teams that are .500 or better.

Brisco_County
11-14-2013, 12:31 PM
We were 12-4 because we beat bad teams. Denver was still in the process of creating chemistry. Baltimore didn't have Ray and Suggs was just coming back from his Achilles. I don't think Chicago is that good of a team. Detroit had chances to seal the game but couldn't after Schaub's interception. There's really nothing to be proud about because any time a well coached, above average QB-led team came to play, we got SMOKED. Kubiak is not a good coach. He's not terrible, but he's certainly not good. He surrounds himself with bad personnel. I don't know what else you need to see.

Well stated, and your points are valid. I just feel that Kubiak was given too much rope to hang himself, and his Achilles heel is that he's incapable of making objective decisions about personnel. As a result, we didn't get to see him maximize what he does best. I believe that Kubiak with consistent personnel could regularly take a team deep into the post season every year.

If he's fired this season, I wouldn't object. But I also believe that a winning record would've been unlikely anyway with the injuries suffered and the QB meltdown.

And no matter who gets fired, I still believe this:

Realistically, I think the best solution is for McNair to conduct a critical review of his organization as it relates to scouting and personnel.

Honoring Earl 34
11-14-2013, 12:48 PM
What Rick wants is another Boilermaker as a coach . :ahhaha:

thunderkyss
11-15-2013, 03:56 AM
Of course you still believe. You have your reality distortion glasses on, and you are changing the argument. The theory was that slow and steady growth leading to the first playoff appearance was what mattered:

1) If the Texans have slow and and steady improvement - the Texans did this for years
2) When the Texans finally reach the playoffs - the Texans have made the playoffs
3) Then the Texans will be in the playoffs for a decade - I may be a bit premature since the team isn't mathematically eliminated, but I think the 2-7 Texans aren't making the playoffs this year.

You can toss out your standard, "Boy are you going to be surprised when the Texans win out and make the playoffs this year" post, but I'm talking about this football season, not a fictional future history of this season.

I'm not changing the argument, I'm agreeing with the people that said our F.O. screwed up the last two years. The team we have today is not as good as the team we had in 2011. Not in the coaching department, not on special teams. Not on the Offensive line, the secondary... not at the LB position, not at TE. The only thing we can say that is better about this team than the 2011 team, is the QB & I say that with rose colored glasses.

Slow & steady growth will lead to decades of football played at the highest level. Slow (which is what we've got, because we haven't "grown" in two years) will get you 2-7.

otisbean
11-15-2013, 06:38 AM
I think history is fairly clear that the Texans have had difficulties with teams that are .500 or better.

This is the thing that bothers me the most about our current staff. Our record is abysmal against playoff level competition. I respect the heck out of Kubiak as an offensive coordinator. Ultimately I think he'll end up like Capers, a great coordinator and a mediocre HC. I'm tired of mediocrity.

Runner
11-15-2013, 08:15 AM
I'm not changing the argument, I'm agreeing with the people that said our F.O. screwed up the last two years. The team we have today is not as good as the team we had in 2011. Not in the coaching department, not on special teams. Not on the Offensive line, the secondary... not at the LB position, not at TE. The only thing we can say that is better about this team than the 2011 team, is the QB & I say that with rose colored glasses.

Slow & steady growth will lead to decades of football played at the highest level. Slow (which is what we've got, because we haven't "grown" in two years) will get you 2-7.

So to summarize the modified theory.

Doing it "The Right Way" results in taking 5 years to get to the playoffs, then the team is at risk falling back if the growth tapers off.

Doing it "The Wrong Way" gets you to the playoffs in a couple of years, then the team is at risk of falling back if the growth tapers off.

Given that there are the exact same results, I prefer the fast turnaround.

I guess you have finally helped me demonstrate that The Right Way sophistry that had been posted for years was just spin to defend a flailing and failing program. Thanks!

ArlingtonTexan
11-15-2013, 08:33 AM
I'm not changing the argument, I'm agreeing with the people that said our F.O. screwed up the last two years. The team we have today is not as good as the team we had in 2011. Not in the coaching department, not on special teams. Not on the Offensive line, the secondary... not at the LB position, not at TE. The only thing we can say that is better about this team than the 2011 team, is the QB & I say that with rose colored glasses.

Slow & steady growth will lead to decades of football played at the highest level. Slow (which is what we've got, because we haven't "grown" in two years) will get you 2-7.

You are living in 1983 or something. In modern salary cap football, slow and steady keeps you one or two years behind..all the time.

thunderkyss
11-15-2013, 09:26 AM
You are living in 1983 or something. In modern salary cap football, slow and steady keeps you one or two years behind..all the time.

You're right. We should do it like Buffalo & Cleveland.

Runner
11-15-2013, 09:41 AM
You're right. We should do it like Buffalo & Cleveland.

The options are:

Kubiak's failing way
Buffalo's failing way
Cleveland's failing way


I think the "sunshiners" are the most pessimistic people on this board.

We "chicken littles" appear to be the optimists - we expect things can change for the better.

Double Barrel
11-15-2013, 11:57 AM
I think the "sunshiners" are the most pessimistic people on this board.

We "chicken littles" appear to be the optimists - we expect things can change for the better.

I think the 'sunshiners' are close to fulfilling Einstein's definition of insanity. :crazy:

houstonspartan
11-15-2013, 12:30 PM
The options are:

Kubiak's failing way
Buffalo's failing way
Cleveland's failing way


I think the "sunshiners" are the most pessimistic people on this board.

We "chicken littles" appear to be the optimists - we expect things can change for the better.

Correct. It's actually depressing to hear from fans on this team who say, "I'd be happy getting another coach IF we can do better than Kubiak" and "Who else can we get?"

These are supposed "fans" of the "team," yet don't think we can do better than we are already doing.

That's not being a fan of the team; that's being a fan of Gary Kubiak. Own it, already.

infantrycak
11-15-2013, 12:58 PM
Correct. It's actually depressing to hear from fans on this team who say, "I'd be happy getting another coach IF we can do better than Kubiak" and "Who else can we get?"

These are supposed "fans" of the "team," yet don't think we can do better than we are already doing.

That's not being a fan of the team; that's being a fan of Gary Kubiak. Own it, already.

It's easy to tear down arguments not made.

Find one person saying we can't do better. Folks saying IF are only asserting not everyone is better. If there is a coach you would say "I don't want him" about then you are in agreement but won't admit it.

ArlingtonTexan
11-15-2013, 03:41 PM
You're right. We should do it like Buffalo & Cleveland.

We are closer to them than not

Hervoyel
11-15-2013, 03:52 PM
We are closer to them than not

Yeah. It's tough getting used to the idea that Buffalo and Cleveland are both looking down on us at the moment. That ain't a good feeling.

infantrycak
11-15-2013, 03:54 PM
We are closer to them than not

Not buying that. They have a total of 1 winning season and 0 playoffs between them during Kubiak's tenure.

bOODRO87
11-15-2013, 05:30 PM
Is there really anything to like about Kubiak?

gafftop
11-15-2013, 05:41 PM
Texans have no front office. Who are you talking about? Smithiak??? Kubiath??? McNair??? Roots?? Roots is a marketing person. Maybe that gives us an insight into the Texans focus.

The Texans are strictly a "renting" team. They exist from season to season losing talent every year (aging), never gaining. They are building no value obtaining no wealth. They are not even trying to build wealth in the way of talent. Again I ask what trades have we made that have increased the value of this team. Who have we traded and received a valuable asset be it a player or draft choices. This year we will lose Tate and get nothing in return.
We lost Mario and got nada. We never sell high, we only buy high and give up or dismiss. You don't get stronger or better the way the Texans operate. I would say overall our drafts are at best average but I think below average.

I am frustrated with the whole Texans organization.

Double Barrel
11-15-2013, 06:41 PM
Is there really anything to like about Kubiak?

Kubiak the head coach or Kubiak the man?

I think a case can be made for HC, but it would be an unpopular position at the moment and certainly a slow and steady mentality.

But, I think if you objectively wrote the pros and cons on a sheet of paper, you could probably make and easier case against the HC part.

As far as Kubiak the man, I've heard nothing but positive things about Gary in that regard. He seems like a really decent guy on all accounts.

gafftop
11-15-2013, 07:15 PM
Kubiak the head coach or Kubiak the man?

I think a case can be made for HC, but it would be an unpopular position at the moment and certainly a slow and steady mentality.

But, I think if you objectively wrote the pros and cons on a sheet of paper, you could probably make and easier case against the HC part.

As far as Kubiak the man, I've heard nothing but positive things about Gary in that regard. He seems like a really decent guy on all accounts.

Any time I talk about Kubiak it has only to do with him as a head coach as I think it should be for everyone.

houstonspartan
11-15-2013, 08:29 PM
Kubiak the head coach or Kubiak the man?

I think a case can be made for HC, but it would be an unpopular position at the moment and certainly a slow and steady mentality.

But, I think if you objectively wrote the pros and cons on a sheet of paper, you could probably make and easier case against the HC part.

As far as Kubiak the man, I've heard nothing but positive things about Gary in that regard. He seems like a really decent guy on all accounts.

A buddy and fellow season ticket holder - who wants Kubak fired - met him at a golf event. He said Kubiak was one of the nicest human beings he's ever met. And said it was clear he was in the presence of someone who affected people. And, guys, this friend is a gruff attorney, and does not talk in such emotional, hyperbolic terms. But he was so impressed by meeting Kubaik that he was honest about the vibe he got from the guy.

And yet, he STILL wants him fired.

Just saying...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

amazing80
11-15-2013, 08:35 PM
being likable and being good at your job are two entirely different things.......

Number19
11-15-2013, 09:31 PM
Taking Kubiak's health out of the equation, Gary has one year left on his contract. Starting in training camp with Brennan Williams and David Quessenberry, we've been set back with injuries. Despite all the haters, no one in the business anticipated such a rapid decline in Schaub's performance. And on a positive note, we're seeing the emergence of Case Keenum. Taking all these into account, I think McNair will give Gary the last year on his contract.

ArlingtonTexan
11-15-2013, 11:29 PM
Not buying that. They have a total of 1 winning season and 0 playoffs between them during Kubiak's tenure.

yeah, I did what I often accuse (rightly so) many other posters of doing and spitting out 1 liner w/o actually looking up facts. buffalo, Oakland and Cleveland are all on really bad runs right now in terms of playoffs and general suckitude.

thunderkyss
11-15-2013, 11:44 PM
Correct. It's actually depressing to hear from fans on this team who say, "I'd be happy getting another coach IF we can do better than Kubiak" and "Who else can we get?"
.

I'm not saying that. The only reason I want Kubiak to stay is because I believe Case's chances of success in the NFL is greater with Kubiak than not.

Secondly, I'm not saying Kubiak's way is great. I'm saying I still support the slow & steady approach to building a franchise as opposed to the fire everyone every other year the way the Browns has been doing it.

Just like in 2010, I'm fine if Kubiak is fired. I'm fine if Rick Smith is fired. But I'd prefer it's one or the other, to maintain continuity. There are some bad things going on here, but there are some good things. I'd rather keep the good, improve on them, and minimize the bad.

For instance.... what would you do if you were Arthur Blank?

infantrycak
11-16-2013, 12:03 AM
yeah, I did what I often accuse (rightly so) many other posters of doing and spitting out 1 liner w/o actually looking up facts. buffalo, Oakland and Cleveland are all on really bad runs right now in terms of playoffs and general suckitude.

Holy crap, I knew Oakland was bad but wow - on the way to their 11th non-winning season in a row, 9 of them 5 wins or less. Their MB must look like the cooling lake outside Mr. Burns' nuclear plant.

steelbtexan
11-16-2013, 12:37 AM
Winston was a stud run blocker even if he sucked in pass pro and had a penchant for false starts. The point remains : was he worth the money to keep him? The Texans decided he wasn't and all of our attempts to replace him have failed.

Rick's attempts to replace Winston?

ArlingtonTexan
11-16-2013, 12:40 AM
Holy crap, I knew Oakland was bad but wow - on the way to their 11th non-winning season in a row, 9 of them 5 wins or less. Their MB must look like the cooling lake outside Mr. Burns' nuclear plant.

Here is a link to last playoff appearances

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_franchise_post-season_droughts#Active_post-season_droughts

The Rams are headed towards double digits also...I need to put more thought into this, but looks like the salary keeps bad organizations bad.

steelbtexan
11-16-2013, 12:48 AM
I'm not saying that. The only reason I want Kubiak to stay is because I believe Case's chances of success in the NFL is greater with Kubiak than not.

Secondly, I'm not saying Kubiak's way is great. I'm saying I still support the slow & steady approach to building a franchise as opposed to the fire everyone every other year the way the Browns has been doing it.

Just like in 2010, I'm fine if Kubiak is fired. I'm fine if Rick Smith is fired. But I'd prefer it's one or the other, to maintain continuity. There are some bad things going on here, but there are some good things. I'd rather keep the good, improve on them, and minimize the bad.

For instance.... what would you do if you were Arthur Blank?

8 yrs in NFL time is beyond slow and steady, it's pathetic considering the current state of the franchise.

If I'm Arthur Blank I draft a pass rusher and trade up to get a LT to protect Ryan and I make the playoffs again. Dimitroff has shown he is willing to take risks and make moves. The Falcons ae in much better shape than the Texans and their slow and steady approach. IMHO

thunderkyss
11-16-2013, 01:48 AM
8 yrs in NFL time is beyond slow and steady, it's pathetic considering the current state of the franchise.


You're right. If I had to chose, I'd take the quick route. But whether you do it slow & steady, or quick, you've got to do it the right way. The Browns, Bills, Raiders.... they've been trying it the quick way, but they've been going about it all wrong.

Our slow & steady was "on the right track" up until a couple of years ago. The team has been going sideways for 2 years now as far as growth goes. We've been winning, but I think that shows how good a coach Kubiak really is. I understand he built this team, & the sideways direction is ultimately his fault. They made a bad assumption after 2011 & it bit them in the butt.

I just think it's easier to find someone capable of doing it slow & steady than it is to find the right guys to make it happen over night. Andy Ried didn't do anything over night. That team has been plagued by injury for the last 3-4 years. They've been collecting talent for quite some time now.

I tell you what, I think Gary did a fairly good job getting us from where we were to where we are. I honestly don't know if anyone could have done it faster. But right now, we're in a position where I believe a new coach would find success quick. Not so much in 2006.

That said. We were a losing franchise in 2006. Kubiak changed that after one season. Three years from then, we were in the play-offs. Had we fired Kubiak after 2010 it's possible we would still be experiencing this down-turn after back to back play-off seasons.

Would we still be as irate? Disappointed?


If I'm Arthur Blank I draft a pass rusher and trade up to get a LT to protect Ryan and I make the playoffs again. Dimitroff has shown he is willing to take risks and make moves. The Falcons ae in much better shape than the Texans and their slow and steady approach. IMHO

They've got one play-off victory since 2008 (6 years). Kubiak's got 2 (8 years). Why aren't you talking about finding a new head coach, or GM? The Falcons were probably expected to be the #3 team in the NFC & they've got the same 2-7 record we do.

steelbtexan
11-16-2013, 02:23 AM
I think Kubiak is actually a pretty good coach, but the major flaw of this team has always been personnel decisions. The execution of Kubiak's schemes is limited by mediocre talent or lack of depth, specifically at the offensive line, and much of that problem is owned by Kubiak. I wrote in another thread that Kubiak's best personnel decisions have been the result of process, like Foster and Keenum. His worst ones were based on his impressions or evaluations, like Chris Brown and numerous linemen. None of us really know the balance of influence between Kubiak and Smith on draft decisions, but Smith has just pointed the finger at Kubiak, and that's a reliable indication of who's in the hot seat.

Realistically, I think the best solution is for McNair to conduct a critical review of his organization as it relates to scouting and personnel rather than interviewing new coaches. The benefits of keeping Kubiak -- as unpopular as that is around here -- is 1) He has an opportunity to maximize his best skillset as a QB coach by developing Keenum, and 2) The FO has already assessed Kubiak's strengths and weaknesses, and you can account for the weaknesses with supplemental staff. For an owner, having an accurate assessment of your manager's strengths and weaknesses is essential, and you can avoid the long and painful assessment period that comes with a replacement head coach.

I know that people have this idea that a championship head coach is one who simply executes every responsibility of his role better than his peers. The truth is that people who stand out among their peers only excel at two or three skills. A good owner knows how to set up that manager for success while accounting for and supplementing that manager's mediocrities. With a record of 12-4 last season, and the endorsement of some of the best quarterbacks to ever play in the NFL, I think Kubiak can be set up for success. That's hard for a lot of fans to accept after this season, but a plague of injuries and a QB meltdown can't be pinned entirely on the coach. That's what fans have the hardest time struggling with: Sometimes injuries and circumstance can tank a season, and there is no one to fire.

8 yrs and Schaub is Gary/ Ricks guy. They should all be held accountable with their jobs. History says BoB doesn't hold anybody accountable on the on field product side of the org.

steelbtexan
11-16-2013, 02:33 AM
You're right. If I had to chose, I'd take the quick route. But whether you do it slow & steady, or quick, you've got to do it the right way. The Browns, Bills, Raiders.... they've been trying it the quick way, but they've been going about it all wrong.

Our slow & steady was "on the right track" up until a couple of years ago. The team has been going sideways for 2 years now as far as growth goes. We've been winning, but I think that shows how good a coach Kubiak really is. I understand he built this team, & the sideways direction is ultimately his fault. They made a bad assumption after 2011 & it bit them in the butt.

I just think it's easier to find someone capable of doing it slow & steady than it is to find the right guys to make it happen over night. Andy Ried didn't do anything over night. That team has been plagued by injury for the last 3-4 years. They've been collecting talent for quite some time now.

I tell you what, I think Gary did a fairly good job getting us from where we were to where we are. I honestly don't know if anyone could have done it faster. But right now, we're in a position where I believe a new coach would find success quick. Not so much in 2006.

That said. We were a losing franchise in 2006. Kubiak changed that after one season. Three years from then, we were in the play-offs. Had we fired Kubiak after 2010 it's possible we would still be experiencing this down-turn after back to back play-off seasons.

Would we still be as irate? Disappointed?



They've got one play-off victory since 2008 (6 years). Kubiak's got 2 (8 years). Why aren't you talking about finding a new head coach, or GM? The Falcons were probably expected to be the #3 team in the NFC & they've got the same 2-7 record we do.

Ifs and butts

Yes I will take a risk take over a guy who shutters at the thought of taking a risk.

Jst look at the Seahawks taking a chance on Wilson, the Ravens fiing their OC towards the end of last season, Harbaugh starting Kaepermick. Do you think Gary would take these chances.

As far as Rick goes this team isn't nearly as talented as we (the casual fans think it is)

Looks like it's about time to $$$$$ the fiddler. LOL

thunderkyss
11-16-2013, 02:53 AM
Ifs and butts


There were no if's & buts in there. Nothing wrong with slow & steady if it's done right. We didn't do it right.


Yes I will take a risk take over a guy who shutters at the thought of taking a risk.

Jst look at the Seahawks taking a chance on Wilson, the Ravens fiing their OC towards the end of last season, Harbaugh starting Kaepermick. Do you think Gary would take these chances.


What's the difference between what Harbaugh did & what Kubiak did? Every time Schaub got hurt, he put another QB in. When he found a QB with better tools, he stuck with that guy even though his "starter" was healthy.

Seattle didn't have a QB with Schaub's resume. Picking the unknown Wilson over the unknown Flynn isn't any different than what happened to Flynn in Oakland. How's that working out for them?

I'm pretty sure if we went into the offseason without a starting QB, Kubiak would have chosen the better of the two or three guys we had in camp.


As far as Rick goes this team isn't nearly as talented as we (the casual fans think it is)

Looks like it's about time to $$$$$ the fiddler. LOL

I think there are several teams out there that get more production/success out of their talent than we do.

bckey
11-16-2013, 05:33 AM
Here is an opinion piece that came out yesterday about Kubiak from UprootedTexan over at battleredblog. Check out an excerpt below:

The news that the front office is unhappy with Kubiak came out four days ago. It is now Friday, and not a single member of the front office, not Rick Smith, neither of the McNairs, not even Snuffy the copy boy has come out to say that Rapoport's statement is untrue. If he were mistaken, someone in a position of authority would have gotten behind a microphone by now and said something to that effect.


http://www.battleredblog.com/2013/11/15/5102424/just-how-hot-is-kubiaks-seat

thunderkyss
11-16-2013, 07:15 AM
Here is an opinion piece that came out yesterday about Kubiak from UprootedTexan over at battleredblog. Check out an excerpt below:

If he were mistaken, someone in a position of authority would have gotten behind a microphone by now and said something to that effect.

http://www.battleredblog.com/2013/11/15/5102424/just-how-hot-is-kubiaks-seat

He's got a point.

Bulls on Parade
11-16-2013, 09:27 AM
He's got a point.
Why would anybody in position of authority (Bob McNair or Rick Smith) want to hold a press conference to talk about a 2-7 team that has greatly failed to meet their high expectations? It would be sad if we lose these next two games at home against the Raiders and Jaguars, but I wouldn't be the least bit shocked. This has nothing to do with Gary Kubiak or any of the coaching staff. We're just a bad team right now due to injuries and some unfortunate mistakes. I applaud the team's effort the last three games. We had a chance to win all of them.

I just want to finish these last seven games, win or lose, and focus on the off-season. Mainly the draft and free agency. I can't wait for 2014. Talking about Gary Kubiak's future right now is just silly. That should be talked about when the season is over. No matter if we finish 2013 with a 9-7 record or 2-14 record. The bottom line is we're not going to the playoffs anymore. We're playing for pride now. For some fans, they would rather have the highest draft pick possible. If we go 2-14 our odds of having the first overall pick is 90 %.

Txn_in_Oki
11-16-2013, 11:26 AM
Sometime you need someone to build something and then need someone to take over and do something with it.

There is a lot of potential in this team, but there seems to be a shortage of someone to grab them by the neck and take them where they need to go. A leader needs to inspire someone to go to hell and back. Payton, Harbaugh, Belichek... those guys seem like they inspire their guys to cause hate and discontent and make things happen. Gary is a guy that would knock you down and then ask if you're okay.

You can have all the best players in the world, but if you don't have the right guy pointing them in the right direction it doesn't mean a damn thing.

EllisUnit
11-16-2013, 12:09 PM
I see nothing wrong with how this team was being built, they built through the draft like any good team should, BUT the problem is that you get these good players and then when it comes pay day you cannot afford them all. Just imagine what Watt is going to cost us here very soon.

And as far as Schaub goes, he was an above average QB until this year, and before Haynesworth flopped on his foot he was a very good QB imo. Theres certain things you cant control.

AND this staff has been very good in drafting players, well they were before this seasons draft cause as of now it looks like the worst we've had in a while. This team is not as bad as the record indicates IMO. I believe next season we will return to the top of the AFC.

Texian
11-16-2013, 12:28 PM
I see nothing wrong with how this team was being built, they built through the draft like any good team should, BUT the problem is that you get these good players and then when it comes pay day you cannot afford them all. Just imagine what Watt is going to cost us here very soon.

And as far as Schaub goes, he was an above average QB until this year, and before Haynesworth flopped on his foot he was a very good QB imo. Theres certain things you cant control.

AND this staff has been very good in drafting players, well they were before this seasons draft cause as of now it looks like the worst we've had in a while. This team is not as bad as the record indicates IMO. I believe next season we will return to the top of the AFC.

The fly in the ointment is Smubiak mortgaged the farm prior to the 2011 season. That along with Peyton's broken neck and Jeff Fisher's departure enabled the Texans to be much improved. Starting with the 2012 season, payments for the 2011 mortgage loan became due. In order to pay the piper, the Texans have had to make many trips to the Pawn Shop, along with refinancing the mortgage each year, just to meet their minimal financial obligations for each season since 2011. As a result their standard of living has declined significantly and Smubiak is about to lose the farm.

EllisUnit
11-16-2013, 02:03 PM
The fly in the ointment is Smubiak mortgaged the farm prior to the 2011 season. That along with Peyton's broken neck and Jeff Fisher's departure enabled the Texans to be much improved. Starting with the 2012 season, payments on the 2011 mortgage loan became due. In order to pay the piper the Texans have had to make one to many trips to the Pawn Shop along with refinancing that mortgage loan each and every year just to meet their financial obligations. As a result their standard of living has declined and they're about to lose the farm.

haha not a bad analogy, but no we will not lose the farm, there are ways to free up money of course the mgmt of the texans will have to grow some balls first.

Marcus
11-16-2013, 02:34 PM
Here is an opinion piece that came out yesterday about Kubiak from UprootedTexan over at battleredblog. Check out an excerpt below:

The news that the front office is unhappy with Kubiak came out four days ago. It is now Friday, and not a single member of the front office, not Rick Smith, neither of the McNairs, not even Snuffy the copy boy has come out to say that Rapoport's statement is untrue. If he were mistaken, someone in a position of authority would have gotten behind a microphone by now and said something to that effect.

Or . . . it could be that "they" felt it wasn't even worth dignifying with a response. If they took time out to react any time some talking-head pulls sh!t out of his ass, that's all they'd be doing.

"Texans FO"? :rolleyes: Glad to see Rapoport making that effort to be specific with his sources.

Kaiser Toro
11-16-2013, 03:14 PM
Here is an opinion piece that came out yesterday about Kubiak from UprootedTexan over at battleredblog. Check out an excerpt below:

The news that the front office is unhappy with Kubiak came out four days ago. It is now Friday, and not a single member of the front office, not Rick Smith, neither of the McNairs, not even Snuffy the copy boy has come out to say that Rapoport's statement is untrue. If he were mistaken, someone in a position of authority would have gotten behind a microphone by now and said something to that effect.


http://www.battleredblog.com/2013/11/15/5102424/just-how-hot-is-kubiaks-seat

Action was taken if one believes Ian Rapoport's FO source, a week ago, was Ed Reed.

Brisco_County
11-16-2013, 05:20 PM
Taking Kubiak's health out of the equation, Gary has one year left on his contract. Starting in training camp with Brennan Williams and David Quessenberry, we've been set back with injuries. Despite all the haters, no one in the business anticipated such a rapid decline in Schaub's performance. And on a positive note, we're seeing the emergence of Case Keenum. Taking all these into account, I think McNair will give Gary the last year on his contract.

Agreed on all points. I would like to see what Kubiak can continue to do with Keenum.

Thorn
11-16-2013, 05:24 PM
Action was taken if one believes Ian Rapoport's FO source, a week ago, was Ed Reed.

The article does have sound logic, and it's admittedly not based on any facts, just an opinion. But I think I agree with they guy's opinion. We'll have to wait until the season is over though to see what if anything the "Front Office" does.

bckey
11-16-2013, 07:25 PM
I don't see any way Kubiak comes back or even that he should come back. The excuses seem endless around here.

EllisUnit
11-16-2013, 07:28 PM
I don't see any way Kubiak comes back or even that he should come back. The excuses seem endless around here.

Cause its the last year of his contract and our owner will prob let him coach it out, that just seems like the kind of guy bob mcnair is.

amazing80
11-16-2013, 07:55 PM
Cause its the last year of his contract and our owner will prob let him coach it out, that just seems like the kind of guy bob mcnair is.

yea but last time he was a "lame duck"coach we extended him.....they dont like having a coach sign players who are in the last season of contract

bckey
11-16-2013, 08:00 PM
Cause its the last year of his contract and our owner will prob let him coach it out, that just seems like the kind of guy bob mcnair is.

I understand the Bob McNair reasoning just based on past decisions. Imho though I think he has seen enough. The contract reasoning is interesting to me. How many NFL coaches are kept just because time is left on their contract as opposed to being fired. It doesn't seem like there are a lot of mutual partings at contracts end. Seems like more coaches are fired or retire. I could be wrong. I don't have any percentages on it. Maybe somebody can dig up some data on it.

Texian
11-16-2013, 08:13 PM
When it's your time to go it's your time to go. Kubiak already has 1 McNair reprieve under his belt. Kubuiak got his pass in 2011 when Bob thought he had found the answer for Kubiaks ineptness on defense by hiring Wade Phillips to be DC. If Bob analyzes how the team's future is compromised by the salary cap, along with recent disappointing drafts, plus the Montgomery and Ed Reed mistakes, it's turn out the lights, the Smubiak party is over. It was likely McNair who made the decision to release the KC Three and send their butt home.

thunderkyss
11-16-2013, 08:53 PM
When it's your time to go it's your time to go. Kubiak already has 1 McNair reprieve under his belt. Kubuiak got his pass in 2011 when Bob thought he had found the answer for Kubiaks ineptness on defense by hiring Wade Phillips to be DC. If Bob analyzes how the team's future is compromised by the salary cap, along with recent disappointing drafts, plus the Montgomery and Ed Reed mistakes, it's turn out the lights, the Smubiak party is over. It was likely McNair who made the decision to release the KC Three and send their butt home.

It's possible. But we know this is a group think organization. Big decisions, like cap projections, the type of players they draft, & the type of Free Agents they sign is a decision they make together.


Just like Wade is distancing himself from the decision to bring in Ed Reed, for all we know Kubiak & Smith were trying to be cautious & follow their same plan, but McNair said, "Think outside the box boys... this is a golden opportunity. Surely the cap will increase after the lock out." & there were a lot of reasons to believe it would, primarily because that is the way the NFL had worked up until that point.

Smubiak might have wanted to stick to their prototypical type... team leaders, high motor, self motivated, choir boys; but McNair said, "Think outside the box boys. We need to get a bit of Nasty on this team. The locker room is strong & we need bad boys to win at the highest level."

Smubiak probably wanted to stick with their prototypical FA signings... young, upside, displayed leadership; but McNair said, "Guys, it's Ed Reed. Be bold, take a chance."

I'm positive it did not go this way, but for all we know Kubiak was on the conservative side of all these decisions & someone else; Cal, Rick, Bob... sold the think-tank on the less conservative approach.

We don't know. But if those are the reasons we're doing so badly right now, that doesn't spell "Fire your Head Coach" to me. That says "Fire the GM"

Now if you're saying this is a talented team & the coach just isn't getting it done.... that's a different story.

Texian
11-16-2013, 10:12 PM
It's possible. But we know this is a group think organization. Big decisions, like cap projections, the type of players they draft, & the type of Free Agents they sign is a decision they make together.


Just like Wade is distancing himself from the decision to bring in Ed Reed, for all we know Kubiak & Smith were trying to be cautious & follow their same plan, but McNair said, "Think outside the box boys... this is a golden opportunity. Surely the cap will increase after the lock out." & there were a lot of reasons to believe it would, primarily because that is the way the NFL had worked up until that point.

Smubiak might have wanted to stick to their prototypical type... team leaders, high motor, self motivated, choir boys; but McNair said, "Think outside the box boys. We need to get a bit of Nasty on this team. The locker room is strong & we need bad boys to win at the highest level."

Smubiak probably wanted to stick with their prototypical FA signings... young, upside, displayed leadership; but McNair said, "Guys, it's Ed Reed. Be bold, take a chance."

I'm positive it did not go this way, but for all we know Kubiak was on the conservative side of all these decisions & someone else; Cal, Rick, Bob... sold the think-tank on the less conservative approach.

We don't know. But if those are the reasons we're doing so badly right now, that doesn't spell "Fire your Head Coach" to me. That says "Fire the GM"

Now if you're saying this is a talented team & the coach just isn't getting it done.... that's a different story.

Here is what I'm saying, Kubiak has demonstrated he's a .500 head coach, games against .500 or better teams have been largely disappointing, his Commitment to Excellence is based on the buddy system (probably why he's a .500 coach). As a head coach Kubiak is proficient and very knowledgeable in the X and Os of the offense. His X and Os for Defense and Special teams are some of the worst in the NFL. His understanding and management of the salary cap is unsatisfactory and has compromised future success. His drafts have been mediocre to below average. The future of the Texans today is they will have to get worse before they can better. Other than that Kubiak's doing a bang up job. How did most of this happen? Kubiak spent money irresponsibly in 2011 trying to get off the hot seat and save his job. Today we're living with the consequences that are a result that irresponsibility. Kubiak has tunnel vision, he operates with a band aid mentality. He lives for today, never for tomorrow.

houstonhurricane
11-16-2013, 10:33 PM
I sincerely believe Kubiak is a goner if we end up in the 4-5 win range. Six wins-plus withCase at qb and I think he is back...

thunderkyss
11-17-2013, 12:43 AM
I sincerely believe Kubiak is a goner if we end up in the 4-5 win range. Six wins-plus withCase at qb and I think he is back...

Wade lost his dad. Kubiak had a stroke. Matt lost his mind. We've lost OD, Arian, Cushing, Manning, to some extent Ben Tate & Jjo.

We can go 2-14, Kubiak & Wade will be back.

Most likely Rick Smith will get some kind of promotion, or we'll get a new GM who will be Kubiak's boss. Maybe a V.P. of football operations who will be Smithiak's boss.

But you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you think Kubiak's a goner. Especially if Case continues to play as well as he has, or better. As I (& a few others said before) Case is the future & the Texans new that for a while. Last season & this season was to give Schaub an opportunity to prove he can win a Super Bowl. I'm sure they didn't expect to be 2-7 at this point, but big picture wise... we're getting a head start on 2014.

djohn2oo8
11-17-2013, 09:41 AM
Wade lost his dad. Kubiak had a stroke. Matt lost his mind. We've lost OD, Arian, Cushing, Manning, to some extent Ben Tate & Jjo.

We can go 2-14, Kubiak & Wade will be back.

Most likely Rick Smith will get some kind of promotion, or we'll get a new GM who will be Kubiak's boss. Maybe a V.P. of football operations who will be Smithiak's boss.

But you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you think Kubiak's a goner. Especially if Case continues to play as well as he has, or better. As I (& a few others said before) Case is the future & the Texans new that for a while. Last season & this season was to give Schaub an opportunity to prove he can win a Super Bowl. I'm sure they didn't expect to be 2-7 at this point, but big picture wise... we're getting a head start on 2014.

Sorry but injuries are not an excuse. That's what depth is supposed to be for. No one knows for sure if Case is the future, because if he is, he would have started the season. If there are no changes, expect ticket sales to go down, as well as fan attendance.

djohn2oo8
11-17-2013, 09:41 AM
BTW, this team has regressed every year since first making the playoffs.

infantrycak
11-17-2013, 10:10 AM
No one knows for sure if Case is the future, because if he is, he would have started the season.

No one knows for sure if Brady is the future, because if he is, he would have started the season over Bledsoe.

If there are no changes, expect ticket sales to go down, as well as fan attendance.

History says attendance yes, ticket sales no.

djohn2oo8
11-17-2013, 10:23 AM
No one knows for sure if Brady is the future, because if he is, he would have started the season over Bledsoe.



History says attendance yes, ticket sales no.

If the Texans FO thought Case was the future, they surely would have been frustrated with Starting the season Schaub, and with the extension, especially after the early struggles. Funny you hear they were pissed with the staff for other reasons though.

Honoring Earl 34
11-17-2013, 11:04 AM
No one knows for sure if Brady is the future, because if he is, he would have started the season over Bledsoe.



History says attendance yes, ticket sales no.

I'll be curious to see the motivation of the McNair's because they move like Glaziers on these things . IMO ... while Bob's been patient with Kubiak , citing stability , the game has changed and passed them by . If nothing changes , I won't give a rat's behind about the Texan's future cause I can't see it , unless of course they prove me wrong .

otisbean
11-17-2013, 11:51 AM
I believe McNair should hire a president of football operations so that emotion can be removed from the equation. By all accounts both our HCs have been stand up men that are as likeable as it gets. I think this might influence Mc Nair to give them more rope then they deserve based on on the field performance. Bottom line, in the business world, you need to remove emotion and look at performance, trends, ect... We are something like 4-11 in our last 15....not good

Honoring Earl 34
11-17-2013, 11:58 AM
I believe McNair should hire a president of football operations so that emotion can be removed from the equation. By all accounts both our HCs have been stand up men that are as likeable as it gets. I think this might influence Mc Nair to give them more rope then they deserve based on on the field performance. Bottom line, in the business world, you need to remove emotion and look at performance, trends, ect... We are something like 4-11 in our last 15....not good

He brought in Dan reeves as a consultant . :spit:

The scary thing to me is the usual suspects of bad franchises may have a new member . It all starts at the top .

Lucky
11-17-2013, 12:02 PM
"Texans FO"? :rolleyes: Glad to see Rapoport making that effort to be specific with his sources.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Smith is attempting to seperate himself from Kubiak. I just hope it doesn't work.

otisbean
11-17-2013, 03:31 PM
He brought in Dan reeves as a consultant . :spit:

The scary thing to me is the usual suspects of bad franchises may have a new member . It all starts at the top .

I was thinking more along the lines of a Ron Wolf

amazing80
11-17-2013, 08:58 PM
wonder how they feel now

HOU-TEX
11-18-2013, 11:54 AM
wonder how they feel now

Kolaches and chocolate milk for everyone this morning. Plus, one of these on their lockers

http://www.jonesawards.com/product_images/MB2072.jpg

DX-TEX
11-18-2013, 12:02 PM
Evil Gary Kubiak ‏@EvilGaryKubiak 16m
P.S. All y'all that think I'm gone after this year have another thing coming #teflonKubiak #Texans

lol

thunderkyss
11-18-2013, 02:25 PM
lol

I really expected to have heard something by now.