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View Full Version : Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted


chenjy9
11-05-2013, 04:39 PM
So is AJ's recent TD emergence just a fluke or does it really mean that his career was essentially wasted with Schaub under center? As pissed as I was when we went away from a clearly working offense, I still wondered about Dre's performance in the first half. The guy is not getting younger nor did he find a fountain of youth, so was it all just the result of the QB change? Was he always capable of deep strikes into the end zone, but MS simply wasn't capable of delivering a strike? I maybe knee-jerking, but all this time many of us thought of Dre as a incredibly dependable workhorse to move the chains and simply is not a TD type receiver.

silvrhand
11-05-2013, 04:47 PM
So is AJ's recent TD emergence just a fluke or does it really mean that his career was essentially wasted with Schaub under center? As pissed as I was when we went away from a clearly working offense, I still wondered about Dre's performance in the first half. The guy is not getting younger nor did he find a fountain of youth, so was it all just the result of the QB change? Was he always capable of deep strikes into the end zone, but MS simply wasn't capable of delivering a strike? I maybe knee-jerking, but all this time many of us thought of Dre as a incredibly dependable workhorse to move the chains and simply is not a TD type receiver.

Matt Schaub has not consistently hit AJ in stride on long balls, which in turn allowed the DB to catch up. So far Mr. Keenum has able to put the ball down the field to let AJ go run under it, which means more touchdowns.

Anyone notice the first touchdown was an out and up on the out route that every corner has been sitting on for weeks. About f'ing time we ran that route.

Vance87
11-05-2013, 04:47 PM
1st TD was a splendid double move by AJ.

The other 2 were off-the-cuff great throws by Case.

AJ has always been an exceptional route runner and throws off the best cornerbacks like Richard Sherman for easy completions. He had above average speed in his youth, but his ability to get behind a defender due to his elusiveness and football prowess has always been his strong suit.

The Pencil Neck
11-05-2013, 04:54 PM
It was 1 game.

But.

With a different QB over the course of his career, AJ's numbers would have been even more impressive. With Schaub at QB, AJ has been a monster. He's put up more 1500 yard seasons than just about anybody and he's caught a ton of balls. He's been VERY productive with Schaub.

QBs make the throws they think they can make, the throws they're comfortable with. Case is willing to go out and take some chances that Matt (and HWWNBN before him) would not take. That ended up with AJ getting three touchdowns on Sunday but that doesn't mean we can expect AJ to keep up that pace or that CASE will be able to get those same opportunities as teams learn more about him and what he can do.

If you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for Larry Fitzgerald. He could have had an insane career, too, if he'd had the right QB.

axman40
11-05-2013, 04:55 PM
It's the upside of having a gunslinger at Qb. My case for Case!
:fans::fans::fans:

Rey
11-05-2013, 04:56 PM
I thought it was kind of interesting today when Dre talked about how keenum does things that Matt would have. He talked about how "other qb's" wouldn't have thrown some of those passes, but case puts confidence into guys and has the attitude that his guys are better than yours...

Exascor
11-05-2013, 04:57 PM
It was 1 game.

But.

With a different QB over the course of his career, AJ's numbers would have been even more impressive. With Schaub at QB, AJ has been a monster. He's put up more 1500 yard seasons than just about anybody and he's caught a ton of balls. He's been VERY productive with Schaub.

QBs make the throws they think they can make, the throws they're comfortable with. Case is willing to go out and take some chances that Matt (and HWWNBN before him) would not take. That ended up with AJ getting three touchdowns on Sunday but that doesn't mean we can expect AJ to keep up that pace or that CASE will be able to get those same opportunities as teams learn more about him and what he can do.

If you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for Larry Fitzgerald. He could have had an insane career, too, if he'd had the right QB.Mr Pencil hit the nail on the head.

chenjy9
11-05-2013, 04:59 PM
It was 1 game.

But.

With a different QB over the course of his career, AJ's numbers would have been even more impressive. With Schaub at QB, AJ has been a monster. He's put up more 1500 yard seasons than just about anybody and he's caught a ton of balls. He's been VERY productive with Schaub.

QBs make the throws they think they can make, the throws they're comfortable with. Case is willing to go out and take some chances that Matt (and HWWNBN before him) would not take. That ended up with AJ getting three touchdowns on Sunday but that doesn't mean we can expect AJ to keep up that pace or that CASE will be able to get those same opportunities as teams learn more about him and what he can do.

If you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for Larry Fitzgerald. He could have had an insane career, too, if he'd had the right QB.

I definitely understand that as a single game, it is too small a sample size to take away anything valid. I very well might be knee jerking here. It still confuses me though that while AJ has been a reception and yardage monster for a healthy Schaub and even HWWNBN, he never was an end zone threat. Still, I can't help but wonder at the same time, was this capability always there and Schaub was simply too incompetent or did Case just get incredibly lucky/hot against the Colts. I personally think/hope this trend of getting AJ into the end zone will continue, because I am really high on Case as he made Jean look competent in the preseason.

PS
Don't feel for Larry at all. :D I feel for AJ though because he represents the Texans team much like Hakeem did for the Rockets.

76Texan
11-05-2013, 05:11 PM
QB play, no doubt about it!

Teams can try to adjust; Keenum was never about one or two guys.

He will try to find a way to attack the defense; acting, instead of reacting.

Rey
11-05-2013, 05:18 PM
It was 1 game.

But.

With a different QB over the course of his career, AJ's numbers would have been even more impressive. With Schaub at QB, AJ has been a monster. He's put up more 1500 yard seasons than just about anybody and he's caught a ton of balls. He's been VERY productive with Schaub.

QBs make the throws they think they can make, the throws they're comfortable with. Case is willing to go out and take some chances that Matt (and HWWNBN before him) would not take. That ended up with AJ getting three touchdowns on Sunday but that doesn't mean we can expect AJ to keep up that pace or that CASE will be able to get those same opportunities as teams learn more about him and what he can do.

If you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for Larry Fitzgerald. He could have had an insane career, too, if he'd had the right QB.

You were a huge Schaub guy so I'm not surprised you'd sugar coat it.

Anyway you slice it Schaub has limited the potential of the offense, more specifically Dre. He wasn't terrible, but some of these criticisms that people had all along but were labeled stupid or haters or ignorant or whatever are now on full display. Not only that, but the players are now coming out and saying as much.

Players like Dre don't come along very often. Think about it. He can do everything. Big, strong, fast...hard working, dedicated, not a diva, and extremely loyal.

Give him a better qb and we could be maybe be talking about at least a one time world champ and all time leader in many categories. A no brainier hall of famer. A guy that could maybe have surpassed rice as the greatest WR ever. One of the greatest to ever play any position period.

If he had a better qb for most of his duration here. Yeah Dre has done pretty good anyways but the point is that he could have been better.

And Schaub possessed no special skills. He was chad Pennington in a great system with a beast WR. Actually, Pennington probably would've been better here. More moxy.

I don't care if case can keep doing what he's done or not and really it's not even relevant. The texans organization has been extremely fortunate with Andre and I think they should have tried harder to find a qb to match his skillet. A qb that could elevate his game and not always the other way around.

texanhead08
11-05-2013, 05:22 PM
I thought it was kind of interesting today when Dre talked about how keenum does things that Matt would have. He talked about how "other qb's" wouldn't have thrown some of those passes, but case puts confidence into guys and has the attitude that his guys are better than yours...


Dan Fouts was doing a UH back during Keenum's sophmore year and Case completed a pass for a touchdown with 2 guys covering the WR. Fouts said thats not a bad throw that sometimes you just have to trust your guy will win the battle.

kingtexan
11-05-2013, 05:30 PM
Andre may be in the running for every receiving record in the history of the NFL if he wouldn't have been stuck with Carr and Schaub. That being said his career hasn't been wasted, just not what it might have been with a legitimate true NFL quarterback throwing his way.

The Pencil Neck
11-05-2013, 05:32 PM
You were a huge Schaub guy so I'm not surprised you'd sugar coat it.

Anyway you slice it Schaub has limited the potential of the offense, more specifically Dre. He wasn't terrible, but some of these criticisms that people had all along but were labeled stupid or haters or ignorant or whatever are now on full display. Not only that, but the players are now coming out and saying as much.

Players like Dre don't come along very often. Think about it. He can do everything. Big, strong, fast...hard working, dedicated, not a diva, and extremely loyal.

Give him a better qb and we could be maybe be talking about at least a one time world champ and all time leader in many categories. A no brainier hall of famer. A guy that could maybe have surpassed rice as the greatest WR ever. One of the greatest to ever play any position period.

If he had a better qb for most of his duration here. Yeah Dre has done pretty good anyways but the point is that he could have been better.

And Schaub possessed no special skills. He was chad Pennington in a great system with a beast WR. Actually, Pennington probably would've been better here. More moxy.

I don't care if case can keep doing what he's done or not and really it's not even relevant. The texans organization has been extremely fortunate with Andre and I think they should have tried harder to find a qb to match his skillet. A qb that could elevate his game and not always the other way around.

I still think that Schaub didn't get as much credit as he deserved for how well he operated this offense when he was in his prime. And I think in his prime, he could have taken this team to a SB and won it.

He was not an elite QB but he was as good as Flacco, just in totally different ways.

I didn't expect Schaub to crash and burn and go from being a very serviceable QB to being a scrub as quickly as he has. I'll admit that. I expected him to be able to play his way out of this funk he's been in recently and I was wrong about that.

But to the original question, Andre paired with someone like a Brady, Brees, or Peyton would have destroyed all of Jerry Rice's records. He would have been a TD scoring machine and he still could turn into a TD scoring machine. Schaub has never been confused as being one of those guys even at his peak and it's a little early to think that Case will be one of those guys (although it's fun to hope he will.)

Scooter
11-05-2013, 05:34 PM
TD 1 - matt throws a nice enough pass that dre has to wait on, and gets tackled at the 8 yard line.

TD 2 - matt throws it away after backing away to his right. no way he even attempts to throw that pass and no way he can hit that window.

TD 3 - matt spikes it, we either run, play-action to a tightend or we kick a fieldgoal.


i heard that andre has never had a 3 touchdown game before and that doesnt surprise me. he hasnt had a quarterback that can throw touchdowns without being schemed into it. keenum can lead his receivers. he can throw it to space and let his receiver hunt it down. and he's not afraid to trust his receivers such as the jump ball to hopkins.

RTP2110
11-05-2013, 05:35 PM
AJ didn't just now figure out how to catch TD's; he's doing the same things he's always done. I have no doubts his low TD totals have been due to the system and QB play.

Fili
11-05-2013, 05:35 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/houston-texans/0ap2000000276132/The-Keenum-Johnson-connection

Double Barrel
11-05-2013, 05:39 PM
I have to wonder if Jerry Rice would have been JERRY RICE G.O.A.T. if he didn't have two HoF QBs throwing the ball to him for the majority of his career.

Sure, the dude would have been elite on any team. But take that talent and put it on a team with Joe Montana and Steve Young, and it takes it out of this world.

Think if AJ had Manning or Brady throwing the ball to him for the past 10 years. How many Super Bowl rings and mentions of first ballot HoF would he have now?

He's that kind of special talent. Unfortunately, he was the only special talent this franchise had for too many years of his career.

Wolf
11-05-2013, 05:51 PM
I have to wonder if Jerry Rice would have been JERRY RICE G.O.A.T. if he didn't have two HoF QBs throwing the ball to him for the majority of his career.

Sure, the dude would have been elite on any team. But take that talent and put it on a team with Joe Montana and Steve Young, and it takes it out of this world.

Think if AJ had Manning or Brady throwing the ball to him for the past 10 years. How many Super Bowl rings and mentions of first ballot HoF would he have now?

He's that kind of special talent. Unfortunately, he was the only special talent this franchise had for too many years of his career.


Yep DB. Kinda like emmit smith and that cowboys offensive line...think if earl ran behind that line

eriadoc
11-05-2013, 07:23 PM
I think Keenum made it clear the other night that AJ hasn't been the problem. The team never threw to AJ in the end zone, but AJ proved the other night that he is just as effective there as anywhere else on the field, even 11 years into his career. The team did throw bombs to him on double moves, but Schaub didn't have the arm to get it to him in stride. We've all said it for years. All you had to do was watch AJ slow up and catch a 40 yard pass and then get tackled. Whenever I brought it up, there was always someone there to dismiss the idea that Schaub arm strength was an issue. Well, Keenum hit AJ in stride on the same routes and you didn't see AJ slowing up for the ball and the defenders never caught him.

So yeah, AJ's career has been largely wasted to this point.

DocBar
11-05-2013, 07:43 PM
AJ has always had yards and catches. He just tied for 2nd fastest to 12K yds.
The big play that is missing from AJ's career resume is the 5 yd TD pass to AJ. THAT is where Carr, Schaub and Kubiak have failed AJ's career stats and, potentially, their own career stats. AJ simply isn't targeted regularly in the red zone with Schaub as QB and Kubiak as HC. IMHO, that's more on the latter. Kubiak prefers to hit TE's or run the ball.

HJam72
11-05-2013, 07:52 PM
AJ has TIME to make double-moves now because Keenum is creating time by moving around behind the LOS. Schaub never created extra time for his receivers to get open. He needed quick little receivers to get open sooner for shorter passes, or a TE with LBs covering him. How often has Schaub even waited and stayed on his feet long enough for AJ to make a double-move and run at least half the length of the field? If the receivers don't have time to get open, it doesn't even matter if you can throw the pass or not.

DocBar
11-05-2013, 08:04 PM
AJ has TIME to make double-moves now because Keenum is creating time by moving around behind the LOS. Schaub never created extra time for his receivers to get open. He needed quick little receivers to get open sooner for shorter passes, or a TE with LBs covering him. How often has Schaub even waited and stayed on his feet long enough for AJ to make a double-move and run at least half the length of the field? If the receivers don't have time to get open, it doesn't even matter if you can throw the pass or not.Schaub is the Texans version of Warren Moon? I ask because the Oiler's didn't use TE's in the R&S.

TejasTom
11-05-2013, 08:28 PM
On the player's show on 610 this morning AJ said he gave Case the signal for the fake spike and Case gave him the nod.

DocBar
11-05-2013, 08:42 PM
On the player's show on 610 this morning AJ said he gave Case the signal for the fake spike and Case gave him the nod.
Ala Stafford?

Texan_Bill
11-05-2013, 08:46 PM
I like the fact that Case Keenum isn't afraid to throw the ball up for AJ to make a play!!

I like that, I LIKE THAT A LOT!!!!!

Playoffs
11-05-2013, 08:57 PM
So is AJ's recent TD emergence just a fluke or does it really mean that his career was essentially wasted with Schaub under center?...

His career numbers have been truncated by having David Carr and Schaub as QBs. Had AJ had Brady/Brees/Farve/Rogers/Montana/Manning as QBs his name would be mentioned in the same breath as Jerry Rice. I firmly believe that... that he was/is that good.

DocBar
11-05-2013, 09:03 PM
His career numbers have been truncated by having David Carr and Schaub as QBs. Had AJ had Brady/Brees/Farve/Rogers/Montana/Manning as QBs his name would be mentioned in the same breath as Jerry Rice. I firmly believe that... that he was/is that good.His TD numbers have been truncated. AJ has very good career yardage numbers. It;s TD numbers that elude him. Maybe a few years with Keenum will remove that stigma.

Naija Texan
11-05-2013, 09:05 PM
QBs have different strengths and weaknesses, one of Case's just happens to be deep passes especially when given time due to him being elusive against normal or standard pass rushes.

At this point, unless AJ suddenly starts getting multiple TDs per game and ends this horrific season with more TDs then he has ever had (I think his high has been 7 or 8 in a season) it is of minor note and fans shouldn't torture themselves thinking about what ifs, except probably more adding fuel on the cut Schaub bonfire.

eriadoc
11-05-2013, 09:16 PM
AJ has TIME to make double-moves now because Keenum is creating time by moving around behind the LOS. Schaub never created extra time for his receivers to get open.

Nah. Before his Lisfranc injury, Schaub hit AJ downfield regularly. He just underthrew the ball and AJ had to slow up, which led to him getting tackled as soon as he caught the ball. Schaub to AJ has resulted in a better than average number of long passes. It's just that Schaub has cost the team (and AJ) some TDs on those plays by underthrowing the ball. Furthermore, he doesn't target AJ in the end zone like Keenum did on the fake spike play. That has cost the team (and AJ) some TDs as well. But the kickers got lots of extra FGs out of it, so yay?

ThaJokaa
11-05-2013, 09:17 PM
Double post, my bad

ThaJokaa
11-05-2013, 09:18 PM
On the player's show on 610 this morning AJ said he gave Case the signal for the fake spike and Case gave him the nod.
And not only that, but AJ unintentionally threw Matt under the bus when he said Keenum allowes his WRs to go up and make the catch, while other QBs would just settle for they got and Case kind of just takes it. (I'm Paraphrasing)

DexmanC
11-05-2013, 11:32 PM
And not only that, but AJ unintentionally threw Matt under the bus when he said Keenum allowes his WRs to go up and make the catch, while other QBs would just settle for they got and Case kind of just takes it. (I'm Paraphrasing)

Was there anything untruthful about what AJ said? I have no problem with the truth, no matter the form it comes in.

infantrycak
11-05-2013, 11:46 PM
AJ has TIME to make double-moves now because Keenum is creating time by moving around behind the LOS. Schaub never created extra time for his receivers to get open. He needed quick little receivers to get open sooner for shorter passes, [U]or a TE with LBs covering him.

AJ has regularly been using double moves for years.

When have the Texans significantly utilized a quick little WR? To the contrary big ol' AJ has led the league in receiving (with no #2 WR) twice

His career numbers have been truncated by having David Carr and Schaub as QBs. Had AJ had Brady/Brees/Farve/Rogers/Montana/Manning as QBs his name would be mentioned in the same breath as Jerry Rice. I firmly believe that... that he was/is that good.

His TD numbers are low. Everything else under Schaub is as high as you could reasonably hope for. AJ has averaged 96.6 ypg with Schaub (actually that is the Schaub era and so includes stretches when Schaub was injured or he would be over 100 ypg). For comparison CJ over the same time period has averaged 87.4 ypg. I use them because together the have led the league in 4 of the 6 completed seasons during that time period. The others are 2007 & 2010 in which AJ led in ypg but missed time.

IMO the rumors of AJ's demise and the pitter patter of lost steps are greatly exaggerated.

76Texan
11-06-2013, 01:42 AM
Texans QB coach had a crystal ball:

http://m.houstontexans.com/s/30862/260?itemPos=1&itemUri=2084919789%2F84137125131414951012317129149

Norg
11-06-2013, 01:45 AM
its cuz case runs around in the pocket giving Andre more time has a DB trying to cover for 5 or 6 more seconds is kinda tough

bhsman
11-06-2013, 02:01 AM
People seem to forget Schaub and 'Dre having career years in 2008 and 2009. It's where the other two 1500 years come from when they mention AJ having three, y'know. :smiliepalm: If Schaub hadn't been injured in 2011, who knows where we would be, but it would be a mistake to just throw out Schaub without acknowledging the part he played in 'Dre's career.

Norg
11-06-2013, 02:10 AM
scahub back then knew how to read Def and pick them apart

he liked to use his Tight ends alot to straight Torch Defenses and also the run game was on and play action was on but this was like 3 years ago im saying

3 years ago we ran the ball alot and no team could stop us they knew the run was coming and still they couldn't stop US

and just when the crowded the box to stop us Matt would torch them with OD

thunderkyss
11-06-2013, 02:38 AM
I maybe knee-jerking, but all this time many of us thought of Dre as a incredibly dependable workhorse to move the chains and simply is not a TD type receiver.

Before hating Schaub was cool there were several of us saying that Schaub cost us many a touchdown by underthrowing Aj when he was wide open, giving the DBs time to recover.

That's what started the whole underthrowing on purpose thing. Schaub says it makes for a more catchable ball & in a way it makes sense. If you overthrow a guy, it's a wasted down. But if you underthrow it, provided the receiver locates it, it's much easier to adjust to.

But to do it as consistently as Schaub did, after working with the guy for 6 years... really makes you question his sanity.

thunderkyss
11-06-2013, 02:48 AM
It was 1 game.

But.

With a different QB over the course of his career, AJ's numbers would have been even more impressive. With Schaub at QB, AJ has been a monster. He's put up more 1500 yard seasons than just about anybody and he's caught a ton of balls. He's been VERY productive with Schaub.

QBs make the throws they think they can make, the throws they're comfortable with. Case is willing to go out and take some chances that Matt (and HWWNBN before him) would not take. That ended up with AJ getting three touchdowns on Sunday but that doesn't mean we can expect AJ to keep up that pace or that CASE will be able to get those same opportunities as teams learn more about him and what he can do.


Good points. Case doesn't know any better. David Carr was a badass too at one time. A gunslinger. But they beat that crap out of him. He never had a game like Case had Sunday, but he had moxie, he had no reservations about throwing the ball... it just didn't last.

& that's the real question about Keenum, Luck, RG3, Wilson... how long can they keep it up? Look at Stafford & Newton... Those guys have put up some pretty good numbers last year, but failed to meet expectations & people (some people) are already treating them as after thoughts.

Scooter
11-06-2013, 03:02 AM
Before hating Schaub was cool there were several of us saying that Schaub cost us many a touchdown by underthrowing Aj when he was wide open, giving the DBs time to recover.

That's what started the whole underthrowing on purpose thing. Schaub says it makes for a more catchable ball & in a way it makes sense. If you overthrow a guy, it's a wasted down. But if you underthrow it, provided the receiver locates it, it's much easier to adjust to.

But to do it as consistently as Schaub did, after working with the guy for 6 years... really makes you question his sanity.

i question his touch more than his sanity. i do think schaub erred on the side of caution, but schaub's a chuck it quarterback. he aims for the ceiling and tries to drop it on a somewhat predetermined spot. it's all well and good because he completes the pass and moves the ball, and i've defended him for doing it. that's the extent of schaub's ability though, aim for the spot. kubiak then had to work overtime to turn those nice plays without a finish into manufactured points, something more difficult than it would seem.

case as we've seen all through preseason and now these last two games has the accuracy to throw it to space instead of at the receiver. everyone here took notice that the YAC skyrocketed with keenum. normal everyday passes somehow turned into catch and runs. money says andre had more YAC against the colts than he did each other game combined. posey takes a simple curl for an extra 20 yards. it's a constant that receivers are able to transition quickly into runners instead of lowering their heads for the hit. it's also already lead to a career day for andre despite being "past his prime".

HJam72
11-06-2013, 07:25 AM
In answer to some of the questions, maybe I'm just thinking more of the problems this year. AJ did do the double-moves in the past, but Schaub also had better protection in the past.

My comment about the TEs was pointing out that Schaub likes to hit the TEs, not that he doesn't like to--the idea being that he targets Daniels more than AJ, especially in the red-zone.

Along the same lines, I was saying that Schaub might have preferred quick, small WRs, not that we have actually used them.

My main point to it all was that Schaub (this year, anyway, because I was apparently forgetting a lot of the past) needed guys to get open quick because he can't create extra time with his feet. This has been exacerbated by poor O-Line protection: Brown has been slow, Smith is really not what he used to be, & the right side of the line is just....in rebuilding mode...

Rey
11-06-2013, 07:32 AM
I just heard part of yesterday's interview again, and Dre said that they have a signal for that fake spike fade. He said he gave the signal to case and it's up to the qb whether they want to throw it or not. He said case have him a nod back and gave him a chance to catch the ball.

Part of Schaub's limitations is why Ive been hesitant to just say get rid of kubiak. I think he's an excellent offensive mind. He's not without fault, but I like that this offense was able to put up great numbers with Schaub at qb because Schaub is a pretty limited player and always has been.

For me, whether keenum is the guy moving forward is not relevant. I think he's done enough in two games to show what this offense could look like with a "different" kind of qb.

76Texan
11-06-2013, 08:52 AM
I just heard part of yesterday's interview again, and Dre said that they have a signal for that fake spike fade. He said he gave the signal to case and it's up to the qb whether they want to throw it or not. He said case have him a nod back and gave him a chance to catch the ball.

Part of Schaub's limitations is why Ive been hesitant to just say get rid of kubiak. I think he's an excellent offensive mind. He's not without fault, but I like that this offense was able to put up great numbers with Schaub at qb because Schaub is a pretty limited player and always has been.

For me, whether keenum is the guy moving forward is not relevant. I think he's done enough in two games to show what this offense could look like with a "different" kind of qb.
I don't it matters what kind of offense they put in there.
Now that we've seen Keenum operating successfully from under center for a majority part of the game, we can say with confident that he's not a system QB.

Offenses can run the PA from under center or in shotgun, or in pistol, etc.

At any rate, here's a look at some more of Keenum's throws.
He does make the job of the O-linemen easier with his mobility, his quick decision making and release.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1836516-is-case-keenums-breakout-performance-a-sign-of-things-to-come

Playoffs
11-06-2013, 09:09 AM
IMO the rumors of AJ's demise and the pitter patter of lost steps are greatly exaggerated.

Preaching to the choir. I posted this in another AJ topic:
...here's AJ's rankings amongst WRs by PFF (http://www.profootballfocus.com/) the last 5 years:

2008: 2nd/111
2009: 4th/107
2010: 3rd/111
2011: 30th/115 (only played ~1/3 of usual snaps)
2012: 1st/105

He's rated 3rd/107 in 2013 YTD*.

But I'm always hearing arguments against Xxxxx Xxxxx player for the Hall of Fame because he didn't have Xxx traditional stat, and his career receiving TDs (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_td_career.htm) are unusually low comparatively. I expect that someone -- guessing somebody like Cris Carter -- will argue against AJ for the HOF because of his TDs ranking (76th).

*Now rated 1st/110 WRs.

Dread-Head
11-06-2013, 09:15 AM
AJ is a future hall of famer. Think about it, the man made DAVID CARR look good. Schaub would hit a tight end before throwing one to AJ.

Honoring Earl 34
11-06-2013, 09:16 AM
Was there anything untruthful about what AJ said? I have no problem with the truth, no matter the form it comes in.

Case has more confidence in his players . Why ... that's what they did at UH . He's not afraid to let his WRs play , which is good when you have an alltime great . The other two liked to throw to a guy , in a spot , not moving . Case's 2nd touchdown , he threw it before AJ was open , to a spot where AJ could go get it . He put a lot of air under that ball which Carr couldn't do IMO , cause of hiis bad mechanics , and Schaub doesn't have the arm.

Honoring Earl 34
11-06-2013, 09:20 AM
AJ is a future hall of famer. Think about it, the man made DAVID CARR look good. Schaub would hit a tight end before throwing one to AJ.

AJ was Carr's hair stylist ? :worm:

76Texan
11-06-2013, 09:21 AM
Case has more confidence in his players . Why ... that's what they did at UH . He's not afraid to let his WRs play , which is good when you have an alltime great . The other two liked to throw to a guy , in a spot , not moving . Case's 2nd touchdown , he threw it before AJ was open , to a spot where AJ could go get it . He put a lot of air under that ball which Carr couldn't do IMO , cause he of hiis mechanics , and Schaub doesn't have the arm.

I shudder to think what the outcome of the game would have been like with Schaub in there last week?

Just Imagine the Reliant crowd.
I'm sure there would have been more jersey burning.
What a scary thought

GuerillaBlack
11-06-2013, 09:28 AM
I think Keenum made it clear the other night that AJ hasn't been the problem. The team never threw to AJ in the end zone, but AJ proved the other night that he is just as effective there as anywhere else on the field, even 11 years into his career. The team did throw bombs to him on double moves, but Schaub didn't have the arm to get it to him in stride. We've all said it for years. All you had to do was watch AJ slow up and catch a 40 yard pass and then get tackled. Whenever I brought it up, there was always someone there to dismiss the idea that Schaub arm strength was an issue. Well, Keenum hit AJ in stride on the same routes and you didn't see AJ slowing up for the ball and the defenders never caught him.

So yeah, AJ's career has been largely wasted to this point.

I feel bad for him. Took him so long to get a legit starting NFL QB and not a backup in a starter's role.

Honoring Earl 34
11-06-2013, 09:28 AM
I shudder to think what the outcome of the game would have been like with Schaub in there last week?

Just Imagine the Reliant crowd.
I'm sure there would have been more jersey burning.
What a scary thought

IMO ... part of Kubiak's issues came from the crowd chanting KEENUM KEENUM KEENUM after each big play . Why ... Kubiak is a good guy and I think he stressed for Schaub because he knew that meant Schaub was toast and embarrassed . I think he also realized that he had screwed up staying with Schaub and TJ so long.

Rey
11-06-2013, 09:38 AM
I don't it matters what kind of offense they put in there.
Now that we've seen Keenum operating successfully from under center for a majority part of the game, we can say with confident that he's not a system QB.

Offenses can run the PA from under center or in shotgun, or in pistol, etc.

At any rate, here's a look at some more of Keenum's throws.
He does make the job of the O-linemen easier with his mobility, his quick decision making and release.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1836516-is-case-keenums-breakout-performance-a-sign-of-things-to-come

My comments didn't have anything to do with Keenum really. My point was that I think kubiak is really good at offense.

cbs1507
11-06-2013, 10:02 AM
Preaching to the choir. I posted this in another AJ topic:


But I'm always hearing arguments against Xxxxx Xxxxx player for the Hall of Fame because he didn't have Xxx traditional stat, and his career receiving TDs (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_td_career.htm) are unusually low comparatively. I expect that someone -- guessing somebody like Cris Carter -- will argue against AJ for the HOF because of his TDs ranking (76th).

*Now rated 1st/110 WRs.

I don't think there's any arguing that Dre's a future HOFer. He is already at 20th all time in receiving yards. He could easily move into top 10 all time by the end of next season, the way Keenum's been slinging the ball. Just look at the list from 12th-19th all those players are retired and Reggie Wayne (11th) just tore his ACL. If he can finish this season with another 1500 yard performance and put together 3 more 1,000 yard seasons he could move into the top 3 easily in all time receiving yards by the time he's done. So if Dre can stay healthy and play at the level he has in the past couple of season for a few more years it'll be hard to argue against him, even with the low TD numbers (and Keenum may be able to make those TD's go up considerably).

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_yds_career.htm

GNTLEWOLF
11-06-2013, 10:12 AM
In another thread I questioned whether AJ was still an All-pro level receiver. My appologies Dre...THANK GOD!

76Texan
11-06-2013, 10:39 AM
In another thread I questioned whether AJ was still an All-pro level receiver. My appologies Dre...THANK GOD!

Shame on you, LOL! :swatter:

76Texan
11-06-2013, 10:41 AM
My comments didn't have anything to do with Keenum really. My point was that I think kubiak is really good at offense.

Oh I know; I agree that Kubiak's offense is just fine.
He just needed a QB that can run it efficiently.
If they can beef up that line a little bit, Keenum can go crazy on the opponents.

76Texan
11-06-2013, 10:46 AM
I don't think there's any arguing that Dre's a future HOFer. He is already at 20th all time in receiving yards. He could easily move into top 10 all time by the end of next season, the way Keenum's been slinging the ball. Just look at the list from 12th-19th all those players are retired and Reggie Wayne (11th) just tore his ACL. If he can finish this season with another 1500 yard performance and put together 3 more 1,000 yard seasons he could move into the top 3 easily in all time receiving yards. So if Dre can stay healthy and play at the level he has in the past couple of season for a few more years it'll be hard to argue against him, even with the low TD numbers (and Keenum may be able to make those TD's go up considerably).

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_yds_career.htmAJ only needs 9 more to catch up with HOF Art Monk.
Give him another year, and it is quite feasible.

76Texan
11-06-2013, 10:47 AM
IMO ... part of Kubiak's issues came from the crowd chanting KEENUM KEENUM KEENUM after each big play . Why ... Kubiak is a good guy and I think he stressed for Schaub because he knew that meant Schaub was toast and embarrassed . I think he also realized that he had screwed up staying with Schaub and TJ so long.

When was the last time the crowd chanted Schaub's name, if ever?
Does anybody know?

infantrycak
11-06-2013, 11:31 AM
When was the last time the crowd chanted Schaub's name, if ever?
Does anybody know?

As a general matter crowds don't chant for starters. They chant for starters to be replaced.

Honoring Earl 34
11-06-2013, 11:44 AM
As a general matter crowds don't chant for starters. They chant for starters to be replaced.

I heard plenty of people going " PLEASE RANDY PLEASE " make this kick . :bubbles:

76Texan
11-06-2013, 11:51 AM
As a general matter crowds don't chant for starters. They chant for starters to be replaced.

But Keenum was the starter last game.

So, nobody ever heard Schaub's name being chanted ever?

Do we have the people's choice at QB finally?
That would be awesome if Keenum can keep up his good plays so that the whole fan base (or the vast majority) can rally behind the team more cohesively.
It's good for the morale of the team, no matter who's the HC.

Double Barrel
11-06-2013, 11:55 AM
AJ only needs 9 more to catch up with HOF Art Monk.
Give him another year, and it is quite feasible.

Art Monk played in a different era, one that was not pass happy. It is a fallacy to compare stats from different eras, especially the current one where rules obviously favor offense.

When you have a guy like Nick Foles tying 40+ year old records with 7 touchdowns in a game, it is rather obvious that today's game is fundamentally different. Heck, receivers aren't even scared to go across the middle anymore like the old days. That is a foundational shift in the game and what defenses are allowed (and not allowed) to do now.

As far as AJ in the HoF, I'd like it as a Texans fan. However, if you study trends with Hall of Fame voting, it is clear that voters are slow to put receivers in. Cris Carter waited through six years of voting before finally getting the vote. Other WRs like Andre Reed (7 time finalist) and Tim Brown (4 time finalist) continue to wait. Then we still have Marvin Harrison coming up for eligibility, and all signs point to a long wait for him, as well. (In the not too distant future - before AJ retires probably - we have Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Terrell Owens, and Randy Moss, among others).

AJ is going to have to wait to get in, no doubt about it. This first ballot HoF talk is nice, but it's not realistic based on HoF voting history.

Honoring Earl 34
11-06-2013, 12:13 PM
Art Monk played in a different era, one that was not pass happy. It is a fallacy to compare stats from different eras, especially the current one where rules obviously favor offense.

When you have a guy like Nick Foles tying 40+ year old records with 7 touchdowns in a game, it is rather obvious that today's game is fundamentally different. Heck, receivers aren't even scared to go across the middle anymore like the old days. That is a foundational shift in the game and what defenses are allowed (and not allowed) to do now.

As far as AJ in the HoF, I'd like it as a Texans fan. However, if you study trends with Hall of Fame voting, it is clear that voters are slow to put receivers in. Cris Carter waited through six years of voting before finally getting the vote. Other WRs like Andre Reed (7 time finalist) and Tim Brown (4 time finalist) continue to wait. Then we still have Marvin Harrison coming up for eligibility, and all signs point to a long wait for him, as well. (In the not too distant future - before AJ retires probably - we have Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Terrell Owens, and Randy Moss, among others).

AJ is going to have to wait to get in, no doubt about it. This first ballot HoF talk is nice, but it's not realistic based on HoF voting history.

With the new rules , I think the teams who play a wide open passing game and counter punch with the run are best . I think that's one of the Texans downfalls is playing like a lead is safe . That and missed FGs , pick 6s , elbows to the back of the head , hitting the QB out of bounds , and so on .

76Texan
11-06-2013, 12:19 PM
Art Monk played in a different era, one that was not pass happy. It is a fallacy to compare stats from different eras, especially the current one where rules obviously favor offense.

When you have a guy like Nick Foles tying 40+ year old records with 7 touchdowns in a game, it is rather obvious that today's game is fundamentally different. Heck, receivers aren't even scared to go across the middle anymore like the old days. That is a foundational shift in the game and what defenses are allowed (and not allowed) to do now.

As far as AJ in the HoF, I'd like it as a Texans fan. However, if you study trends with Hall of Fame voting, it is clear that voters are slow to put receivers in. Cris Carter waited through six years of voting before finally getting the vote. Other WRs like Andre Reed (7 time finalist) and Tim Brown (4 time finalist) continue to wait. Then we still have Marvin Harrison coming up for eligibility, and all signs point to a long wait for him, as well. (In the not too distant future - before AJ retires probably - we have Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Terrell Owens, and Randy Moss, among others).

AJ is going to have to wait to get in, no doubt about it. This first ballot HoF talk is nice, but it's not realistic based on HoF voting history.

I don't care about first ballot, as long as AJ gets in, I'm happy.

Double Barrel
11-06-2013, 12:23 PM
I don't care about first ballot, as long as AJ gets in, I'm happy.

Well I certainly agree. We are just going to have to be very patient about the process, all things considered. It honestly could be a very long wait.

infantrycak
11-06-2013, 01:17 PM
Well I certainly agree. We are just going to have to be very patient about the process, all things considered. It honestly could be a very long wait.

Your concerns are real however I think there are additional factors to Dre's benefit. First off, I know off the field stuff is not supposed to count, but it does - ask Cris Carter. TO and Moss will suffer from this. They happen to illustrate the 2nd point as well, several of the folks you mention never led the league in receiving. A related consideration is the factor of best v. really good. Many of them were never considered the best in the game for even a single season. Holt and Bruce will be tagged by some as system guys. I think you are giving too much credit to changes in the game also - Holt, Bruce, TO, Harrison, Moss didn't play in a wildly divergent era. In fact they overlap.

At the end of the day, AJ might be 2nd on the all time receiving list. Hesitancy to put too many WRs in may lead to AJ pushing someone else down the list rather than the reverse.Also, I have slammed McLain often enough but his presence is to AJs advantage. He will make sure the voters know he accomplished what he did with Carr and the stark change to Schaub (and hopefully a sharp change on TDs with Case).

I haven't looked but how many of the folks you mentioned had their careers without a single season with a QB who straight up got voted to the Pro Bowl and certainly not an All Pro?

76Texan
11-06-2013, 01:35 PM
Your concerns are real however I think there are additional factors to Dre's benefit. First off, I know off the field stuff is not supposed to count, but it does - ask Cris Carter. TO and Moss will suffer from this. They happen to illustrate the 2nd point as well, several of the folks you mention never led the league in receiving. A related consideration is the factor of best v. really good. Many of them were never considered the best in the game for even a single season. Holt and Bruce will be tagged by some as system guys. I think you are giving too much credit to changes in the game also - Holt, Bruce, TO, Harrison, Moss didn't play in a wildly divergent era. In fact they overlap.

At the end of the day, AJ might be 2nd on the all time receiving list. Hesitancy to put too many WRs in may lead to AJ pushing someone else down the list rather than the reverse.Also, I have slammed McLain often enough but his presence is to AJs advantage. He will make sure the voters know he accomplished what he did with Carr and the stark change to Schaub (and hopefully a sharp change on TDs with Case).

I haven't looked but how many of the folks you mentioned had their careers without a single season with a QB who straight up got voted to the Pro Bowl and certainly not an All Pro?

It will help if the Texans can get him a bunch of TDs in the next few years.
15-20 TDs in 3-1/2 years or so will probably do it.
A trip to the SB will certainly help.

Double Barrel
11-06-2013, 01:45 PM
Your concerns are real however I think there are additional factors to Dre's benefit. First off, I know off the field stuff is not supposed to count, but it does - ask Cris Carter. TO and Moss will suffer from this. They happen to illustrate the 2nd point as well, several of the folks you mention never led the league in receiving. A related consideration is the factor of best v. really good. Many of them were never considered the best in the game for even a single season. Holt and Bruce will be tagged by some as system guys. I think you are giving too much credit to changes in the game also - Holt, Bruce, TO, Harrison, Moss didn't play in a wildly divergent era. In fact they overlap.

At the end of the day, AJ might be 2nd on the all time receiving list. Hesitancy to put too many WRs in may lead to AJ pushing someone else down the list rather than the reverse.Also, I have slammed McLain often enough but his presence is to AJs advantage. He will make sure the voters know he accomplished what he did with Carr and the stark change to Schaub (and hopefully a sharp change on TDs with Case).

I haven't looked but how many of the folks you mentioned had their careers without a single season with a QB who straight up got voted to the Pro Bowl and certainly not an All Pro?

Great points, man, and I certainly hope that you are ultimately right with them.

To be honest, a lot of my perspective is reminding myself to be patient with the process as a Texans fan.

I'd be interested in seeing numbers, stats, and comparisons of QBs behind these WRs. Hopefully AJ can leap frog over many of those receivers for the off-the-field reasons you mentioned. He truly epitomizes all the good things that pro athletes can represent in so many ways. I cannot recall even a speeding ticket, much less any black mark on his career or reputation (even the fight with Finnegan was pretty much universally applauded).

eriadoc
11-06-2013, 01:56 PM
I haven't looked but how many of the folks you mentioned had their careers without a single season with a QB who straight up got voted to the Pro Bowl and certainly not an All Pro?

I doubt there are any who played with a QB that never made the Pro Bowl or had a good year. Even Matt Schaub made a couple Pro Bowls. But to the heart of your question, Largent comes to mind.

EDIT - Looks like Dave Krieg (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KrieDa00.htm) never made a Pro Bowl. He never led the league in passing yardage or TDs, but did lead in INTs and fumbles a couple times each. Jim Zorn (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Z/ZornJi00.htm) also quarterbacked for some of Largent's career and was equally unimpressive. So maybe Largent is the best example. But he had 100 TDs in 14 years. AJ has 59 through 10.5 games.

TexanBacker93
11-06-2013, 02:24 PM
I don't think you can put Schaub's unwillingness to let 'dre make a play all on him. The QB is an extension of the HC especially in our offense. He isn't allowed to make reads or adjust. He is supposed to run the play that is called and if we execute it will be a positive play. At least that's the theory. I don't believe Kubiak wanted Schaub to take those chances. He is conservative and would rather get the sure 3 (until this season at least) than possibly turn the ball over. Schaub ran Kubiak's offense. He wasn't a field general. He's was a middle manager.

Kubiak feels the pressure. He knows his job is on the line and he is taking the handcuffs off the offense for Keenum. He's giving him liberties that he hasn't given the other QBs recently. That being said, I think Keenum is a better QB at this point anyways regardless of what he is allowed to do. Schaub's skills (he did have some) have eroded quickly and I think the mistakes have effected his psyche as well.

I guess I should at least weigh in on the actual point of the thread now. Andre has still had a great career. I think him playing those years under Capers hurt more than the last few years. WR aren't going to get the majority of red zone looks in this offense. He still is on pace to be one of the top WR in receptions and yards and he's set records for back to back 1,500 yard seasons. He's done everything but score TDs and win the SB. I think QBs should be judged on SB wins more than WRs. Depending on what kind of offense or scheme a great WR can be nothing more than a decoy. I think voters know that he was one of the best at his position over the previous decade. His off the field antics won't hurt him and he's always been a professional (the black Irishman notwithstanding) on the field. He's done enough, but maybe a couple of good years with a different scheme wouldn't hurt.

mattieuk
11-06-2013, 02:27 PM
I think we witnessed a mixture of things against Indy.

Firstly, Case made some great throws - AJ kept stride and barely had to make an effort to get his TD catches. I've not seen as many long balls thrown as well to him to my memory.

Secondly, I think AJ may have (wrongly) benefited from defenses not taking him as seriously as a threat as they would have 3/4 years ago. Whilst I'm not in a position to relay specifics (I'm far too into the game to make rational analysis afterwards), Andre was far more productive in the first half, and in the second went missing. I'm not sure what changes Indy made in coverage, but I presume they focused on shutting him down.

Thirdly, the first TD was a great run route, but any team who gives up a TD like that is going to be pissed with the coverage. AJ should never have that much space around him on a football field.

I tihnk we'll maybe see a levelling out of AJ's production in the upcoming weeks - however I do like the third TD. Schaub seemed to always revert to throwing to the tight end, where, although the ball was well thrown and it was a relatively easy catch, Case gave AJ a chance to make a play, and to quote someone on this board (I forgot who) he took what he wanted, rather than what the defense were offering him.

ObsiWan
11-06-2013, 02:59 PM
But Keenum was the starter last game.

So, nobody ever heard Schaub's name being chanted ever?

Do we have the people's choice at QB finally?
That would be awesome if Keenum can keep up his good plays so that the whole fan base (or the vast majority) can rally behind the team more cohesively.
It's good for the morale of the team, no matter who's the HC.

This Keenum enthusiam will last about one or two more games; or more specifically, one or two more losses. Unless we start a winning streak, they will grow weary of Case too. And start calling for Johnny Football (just to pull a name from the air) to be drafted with our first pick.

The Case Keenum version of the Texans still suffers - as did the Matt Schaub version - from only playing well for 30 out of 60 minutes. Until he started throwing TDs to the other team, as least Schaub used the "good 30" to pull out some wins. Feel good stories only take you so far.

just sayin'...

maddogmrb
11-06-2013, 04:09 PM
The problem AJ will have is that they will discount the TD passes he catches from Case because Case is a system QB, isn't tall enough, doesn't have a strong arm and played in a weak college conference. They will reason that because Lee and SS said Case isn't 'all that' the TD catches from Case are just because of the 'system' and don't count like other QB to WR tandems.

:sarcasm:

cbs1507
11-06-2013, 04:21 PM
This Keenum enthusiam will last about one or two more games; or more specifically, one or two more losses. Unless we start a winning streak, they will grow weary of Case too. And start calling for Johnny Football (just to pull a name from the air) to be drafted with our first pick.

The Case Keenum version of the Texans still suffers - as did the Matt Schaub version - from only playing well for 30 out of 60 minutes. Until he started throwing TDs to the other team, as least Schaub used the "good 30" to pull out some wins. Feel good stories only take you so far.

just sayin'...

In defense of Keenum, our defense gave up 27 points on Sunday. When Schaub was playing our defense gave up about 28 PPG, however about 10 ppg was a direct result of defensive/special teams scores. So if the defense only gave up the 18 ppg they were actually giving up in the first 7 games, we win this easily. That does even take into consideration 3 missed FG and the 4th and 1 failed conversion. So the opportunities were there, but I don't believe anyone can honestly blame QB play as the reason for this loss.

infantrycak
11-06-2013, 05:00 PM
I doubt there are any who played with a QB that never made the Pro Bowl or had a good year. Even Matt Schaub made a couple Pro Bowls. But to the heart of your question, Largent comes to mind.

EDIT - Looks like Dave Krieg (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KrieDa00.htm) never made a Pro Bowl. He never led the league in passing yardage or TDs, but did lead in INTs and fumbles a couple times each. Jim Zorn (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Z/ZornJi00.htm) also quarterbacked for some of Largent's career and was equally unimpressive. So maybe Largent is the best example. But he had 100 TDs in 14 years. AJ has 59 through 10.5 games.

On pro bowls I meant voted in to be one of the guys who goes without someone being injured or refusing to go. Schaub has none on that basis.

Krieg was a 3 time pro bowler ('84, '88 and '89) according to pro-football-reference.

I was really referring to those AJ may come up against but Largent is a good argument for him. Largent is already in the hall. He led the league in receiving twice. He did not have spectacular QB play. At this point in his career he had 80 TD's.

Compare TO. Never led the league. 3 seasons with pro bowler and hall member Steve Young, 3 seasons when Garcia went to the pro bowl, 1 season with McNabb in the pro bowl and 2 with Romo. 9 seasons total. That's a big leg up.

DocBar
11-06-2013, 10:22 PM
I don't think you can put Schaub's unwillingness to let 'dre make a play all on him. The QB is an extension of the HC especially in our offense. He isn't allowed to make reads or adjust. He is supposed to run the play that is called and if we execute it will be a positive play. At least that's the theory. I don't believe Kubiak wanted Schaub to take those chances. He is conservative and would rather get the sure 3 (until this season at least) than possibly turn the ball over. Schaub ran Kubiak's offense. He wasn't a field general. He's was a middle manager.

Kubiak feels the pressure. He knows his job is on the line and he is taking the handcuffs off the offense for Keenum. He's giving him liberties that he hasn't given the other QBs recently. That being said, I think Keenum is a better QB at this point anyways regardless of what he is allowed to do. Schaub's skills (he did have some) have eroded quickly and I think the mistakes have effected his psyche as well.

I guess I should at least weigh in on the actual point of the thread now. Andre has still had a great career. I think him playing those years under Capers hurt more than the last few years. WR aren't going to get the majority of red zone looks in this offense. He still is on pace to be one of the top WR in receptions and yards and he's set records for back to back 1,500 yard seasons. He's done everything but score TDs and win the SB. I think QBs should be judged on SB wins more than WRs. Depending on what kind of offense or scheme a great WR can be nothing more than a decoy. I think voters know that he was one of the best at his position over the previous decade. His off the field antics won't hurt him and he's always been a professional (the black Irishman notwithstanding) on the field. He's done enough, but maybe a couple of good years with a different scheme wouldn't hurt.What do you think of this? LINK (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Andre-Johnson-talks-TDs/5afc3c1b-6fea-4cc2-abac-3e01b43c215a)

“I wasn’t surprised that it got to me, I was surprised he threw it,” Johnson said. “Normally, when we are in that situation, the quarterback wouldn’t throw the ball but I think Case just throws it differently, like ‘I like my guy better than that guy.’ He just gave me a chance and I was able to go get it.That should be more than enough to disspell the idea that Kubiak was limiting where the QB could throw.

I've been a big supporter of the idea that maybe Kubiak was handcuffing Schaub, but this admission from AJ completely opened my eyes. Schaub is limiting this offense, not Kubiak. Schaub will take the safe route rather than throwing the dice, if given the choice. Schaub is also less than capable of making off schedule plays if he has to scramble or is pressured.

EllisUnit
11-07-2013, 06:49 AM
Another thing i noticed was Keenum shouting things to the O-Line and WR's, something we ratrely see Schaub do. I think Keenums ability to read the defense allows him to do such. So i think that Schaub was limited in what he did due to his own ability, not because Kubiak wouldnt let him.

Just like the fake spike, something we have never seen from Schaub before, and AJ said it was an option for them to do such.

Only thing i put on coaching is the play calling in the second half when we take or foot off the gas, i was watching Bill B of the patriots, they were winning by 20+ and he told his guys hey we are going to score some more. We need that mentality, of course who knows how the game would of been called had Kubiak not went down at half time. Cause it seems to me that Kubiak has more faith in Case than he did in Schaub and the play calls have seemed far more aggressive.

Hervoyel
11-07-2013, 08:46 AM
I think something that will help AJ get in the HOF will in fact be that he'll be the first Houston Texan worthy of inclusion. There won't be anybody from this team in the HOF before AJ and possibly no one for a good long time after AJ. He'll get additional consideration simply because he's the first Texan to merit it.

I know that doesn't make a ton of sense to some people but I think it will be a factor among the people casting ballots. They'll look at him, consider him worthy (if not necessarily a first ballot guy) and then take into account the team he played for (and who threw to him during those years) and then give him the nod. Call it the sympathy vote if you want but that will put him first ballot.

76Texan
11-07-2013, 08:52 AM
I think something that will help AJ get in the HOF will in fact be that he'll be the first Houston Texan worthy of inclusion. There won't be anybody from this team in the HOF before AJ and possibly no one for a good long time after AJ. He'll get additional consideration simply because he's the first Texan to merit it.

I know that doesn't make a ton of sense to some people but I think it will be a factor among the people casting ballots. They'll look at him, consider him worthy (if not necessarily a first ballot guy) and then take into account the team he played for (and who threw to him during those years) and then give him the nod. Call it the sympathy vote if you want but that will put him first ballot.

Good points.

Double Barrel
11-07-2013, 10:16 AM
I think something that will help AJ get in the HOF will in fact be that he'll be the first Houston Texan worthy of inclusion. There won't be anybody from this team in the HOF before AJ and possibly no one for a good long time after AJ. He'll get additional consideration simply because he's the first Texan to merit it.

I know that doesn't make a ton of sense to some people but I think it will be a factor among the people casting ballots. They'll look at him, consider him worthy (if not necessarily a first ballot guy) and then take into account the team he played for (and who threw to him during those years) and then give him the nod. Call it the sympathy vote if you want but that will put him first ballot.

I'm a bit more optimistic about AJ's chances after reading your's and 'cak's perspectives. The HoF acts like off-the-field does not make a difference, but voters are human and obviously the take into account big picture stuff.

I think his consistently elite talent and work ethic in the face of an expansion franchise and not-elite QBs for his whole career, along with his body of work and obviously great reputation could combine to get him in quicker, and maybe even leap frog over some of the other receivers on the list.

eriadoc
11-07-2013, 10:20 AM
I'm a bit more optimistic about AJ's chances after reading your's and 'cak's perspectives. The HoF acts like off-the-field does not make a difference, but voters are human and obviously the take into account big picture stuff.

I think his consistently elite talent and work ethic in the face of an expansion franchise and not-elite QBs for his whole career, along with his body of work and obviously great reputation could combine to get him in quicker, and maybe even leap frog over some of the other receivers on the list.

Especially if he catches double digit TDs a couple times in the upcoming years.

Dread-Head
11-07-2013, 10:26 AM
I heard plenty of people going " PLEASE RANDY PLEASE " make this kick . :bubbles:

And you guys in the stands probably heard me yelling:

" [letter between "E" & "G"]UUUUUCK! WHY DO YOU HAVE A JOB YOU CLUB FOOTED SON-OF-A-3ITCH!?!"

From home and I know I don't live anywhere NEAR Reliant. The Texans should HAVE to fire him. He should realize he could suck a Winnebago trough a coffee stirrer and just vuggin' QUIT the game of football. He had his day in the sun in college. He was given a shot in the pros and VUGGED it up. Now he needs to move on gracefully before a group of angry fans tries to pull a Nancy Kerrigan on him.

Hervoyel
11-07-2013, 10:36 AM
And you guys in the stands probably heard me yelling:

" [letter between "E" & "G"]UUUUUCK! WHY DO YOU HAVE A JOB YOU CLUB FOOTED SON-OF-A-3ITCH!?!"

From home and I know I don't live anywhere NEAR Reliant. The Texans should HAVE to fire him. He should realize he could suck a Winnebago trough a coffee stirrer and just vuggin' QUIT the game of football. He had his day in the sun in college. He was given a shot in the pros and VUGGED it up. Now he needs to move on gracefully before a group of angry fans tries to pull a Nancy Kerrigan on him.

So that was the sound I heard. I looked over at my brother who was watching the game with me and said "Do you hear that? That's the sound of ultimate suffering. I made that sound when the Oilers left Houston. Some poor long-suffering Texans fan out there makes it now."

Thought it sounded like you.

Dread-Head
11-07-2013, 10:46 AM
So that was the sound I heard. I looked over at my brother who was watching the game with me and said "Do you hear that? That's the sound of ultimate suffering. I made that sound when the Oilers left Houston. Some poor long-suffering Texans fan out there makes it now."

Thought it sounded like you.

My throat is STILL sore from that. Some cops came over because the neighbors complained, but the cop who arrived was a Cowgirl f:zipit:n so he was laughing at me rather than telling me to keep it down.

The Pencil Neck
11-07-2013, 01:47 PM
I've been a big supporter of the idea that maybe Kubiak was handcuffing Schaub, but this admission from AJ completely opened my eyes. Schaub is limiting this offense, not Kubiak. Schaub will take the safe route rather than throwing the dice, if given the choice. Schaub is also less than capable of making off schedule plays if he has to scramble or is pressured.

This is something I've been saying (and I was a strong Schaub supporter.)

The way this offense is designed, someone should always be open. It's on the QB to read the defense and let that take him to the receiver that should be open. Back in the old days, I got down on HWWNBN because his definition of open was standing without anyone within 10 yards of the receiver AND the receiver looking back and making eye contact.

Schaub's definition of open includes throwing the ball to where the guy should be. He doesn't have to SEE the guy's open to throw the ball. BUT... there are some throws he's just not going to make because he doesn't trust either himself or the receiver OR he just doesn't see it as open. That's the definition of a game-manager QB. He's not going to make throws he thinks are risky. But for this type of QB to work, he's got to correctly evaluate the risks. Schaub has not been doing that since the end of last season.

Keenum's definition of open includes stuff that Schaub would never consider open. Keenum's willing to make more throws than Schaub is. He's willing to take risks.

Those same guys were open for Schaub but he wouldn't take the chance.

So... it's not Kubiak or his offense that's not going to take the risk and it never has been. Kubiak's offense, when run right, can be damned explosive. I just hope Keenum can keep it up and this week, I hope Dennison proves to be a better play-caller than he was last week.

ObsiWan
11-07-2013, 05:09 PM
In defense of Keenum, our defense gave up 27 points on Sunday. When Schaub was playing our defense gave up about 28 PPG, however about 10 ppg was a direct result of defensive/special teams scores. So if the defense only gave up the 18 ppg they were actually giving up in the first 7 games, we win this easily. That does even take into consideration 3 missed FG and the 4th and 1 failed conversion. So the opportunities were there, but I don't believe anyone can honestly blame QB play as the reason for this loss.

To be clear about my message, my post wasn't intended to be an indictment of Case. I LOVE his gunslinger mentality and his infectious enthusiasm. The team seems to love it also.
Right now, the fanbase seems to love it.
All I'm saying that lovefest from the fans will evaporate if it doesn't soon translate into wins.
We fans are fickle like that.
...but I doubt that's news to anybody.

ObsiWan
11-07-2013, 05:18 PM
And you guys in the stands probably heard me yelling:

" [letter between "E" & "G"]UUUUUCK! WHY DO YOU HAVE A JOB YOU CLUB FOOTED SON-OF-A-3ITCH!?!"

From home and I know I don't live anywhere NEAR Reliant. The Texans should HAVE to fire him. He should realize he could suck a Winnebago trough a coffee stirrer and just vuggin' QUIT the game of football. He had his day in the sun in college. He was given a shot in the pros and VUGGED it up. Now he needs to move on gracefully before a group of angry fans tries to pull a Nancy Kerrigan on him.

Dread, you DO know that the record for the longest field goal in NFL history (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxTjgFYoU8) is held by a man who's club-footed, right?? Sixty-three yards. It's been tied three times but never beaten.

Tom Dempsey of the New Orleans Saints.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQssf9GlJP0u8QnWLfWiKTjW7-FpR_Qjms9YOXFrI5nDAUIc3gqrQ

...or was "son-of-a-b*t@h the insult??

In short, to label Bullock "club-footed" is giving him too much credit. He's not that good.

ObsiWan
11-07-2013, 05:26 PM
What do you think of this? LINK (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Andre-Johnson-talks-TDs/5afc3c1b-6fea-4cc2-abac-3e01b43c215a)

“That should be more than enough to disspell the idea that Kubiak was limiting where the QB could throw.

I've been a big supporter of the idea that maybe Kubiak was handcuffing Schaub, but this admission from AJ completely opened my eyes. Schaub is limiting this offense, not Kubiak. Schaub will take the safe route rather than throwing the dice, if given the choice. Schaub is also less than capable of making off schedule plays if he has to scramble or is pressured.

I've argued until I'm blue in the face (which is a really tough transition) that Schaub has been the guy making the reads and deciding where he felt he could be safest with the ball. It's hardly ever the play-calling. It's the decision and actions of the guy with the ball in his hand after the snap that makes the difference.

Schaub has become Capt. Checkdown which, in turn, made him more predictable.

DocBar
11-07-2013, 06:51 PM
Dread, you DO know that the record for the longest field goal in NFL history (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxTjgFYoU8) is held by a man who's club-footed, right?? Sixty-three yards. It's been tied three times but never beaten.

Tom Dempsey of the New Orleans Saints.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQssf9GlJP0u8QnWLfWiKTjW7-FpR_Qjms9YOXFrI5nDAUIc3gqrQ

...or was "son-of-a-b*t@h the insult??

In short, to label Bullock "club-footed" is giving him too much credit. He's not that good.He wasn't club footed, I don't think. He was born without toes on his right foot and without fingers on his right hand. IIRC, club foot deals with the foot being twisted or contorted.

I like the analogy, though. :barman:

EllisUnit
11-07-2013, 06:53 PM
He wasn't club footed, I don't think. He was born without toes on his right foot and without fingers on his right hand. IIRC, club foot deals with the foot being twisted or contorted.

I like the analogy, though. :barman:

well his shoe looks like a club, pretty sure thats where the term comes from :kitten:

DexmanC
11-07-2013, 07:07 PM
When thinking about the demise of Schaub, I keep thinking of the play on Thanksgiving where he throws the ball in the dirt, when there was no defender around him for miles.

The receivers seem to love playing for Case, because he makes plays FOR THE RECEIVERS by fighting to BUY MORE TIME for them. Schaub never could make plays for the receivers by scrambling or "throwing the receivers open" deep.

Hervoyel
11-07-2013, 07:58 PM
When thinking about the demise of Schaub, I keep thinking of the play on Thanksgiving where he throws the ball in the dirt, when there was no defender around him for miles.

The receivers seem to love playing for Case, because he makes plays FOR THE RECEIVERS by fighting to BUY MORE TIME for them. Schaub never could make plays for the receivers by scrambling or "throwing the receivers open" deep.

I think that's very true. With Schaub under center you start counting the moment he takes the snap. At about 4 if he hasn't thrown the ball you pretty much know the play failed and he's going to either dump it to a well covered RB or (more likely) throw it away.

Trail.Blazr
11-08-2013, 07:30 AM
With the new rules , I think the teams who play a wide open passing game and counter punch with the run are best . I think that's one of the Texans downfalls is playing like a lead is safe . That and missed FGs , pick 6s , elbows to the back of the head , hitting the QB out of bounds , and so on .


I know many agree. I think it's an attempt to control the clock and keep the ball out of the other teams hands, but when that conservative play calling ("turtling" as I've read in this forum) too often results in 3 and outs, you'd think after a few losses like that, it would become evident that maybe we just keep playing to our strengths rather than worry about what the other team might do. Given the apparent resurgence of an offensive pulse and our questions on defense, I'm praying they figure it out and start playing to our strengths rather than this ball control philosophy. The same oatmeal for years has gotten old.

eriadoc
11-08-2013, 07:35 AM
I know many agree. I think it's an attempt to control the clock and keep the ball out of the other teams hands, but when that conservative play calling ("turtling" as I've read in this forum) too often results in 3 and outs, you'd think after a few losses like that, it would become evident that maybe we just keep playing to our strengths rather than worry about what the other team might do. Given the apparent resurgence of an offensive pulse and our questions on defense, I'm praying they figure it out and start playing to our strengths rather than this ball control philosophy. The same oatmeal for years has gotten old.

It's only ball control offense when you can steadily convert on 3rd down. The Colts with Payton Manning were an example of playing to their strengths. At times people complained about them running up the score and passing in the 4th quarter, but that's what they were able to do. Rather than run the ball ineffectively and punt the ball, they decided to play to their strengths. Without the running game that the Texans had back in 2011, they really need to consider whether they're trying to control the clock or just turtling.

hradhak
11-08-2013, 07:46 AM
I love the fact that Case makes the deep throw. I don't think you can win in the NFL if you don't threaten the deep ball, because the DBs will sit on routes (see Matt Schaub pick 6)

That said, teams are now going to be gameplanning for Keenum. Maybe AJ can still beat them down the field. I do think that Kubiak has more options now and that will have a huge impact on this offense.

Keenum still has to improve on some things. He missed a lot of short slant routes. He recognizes the blitz, but doesn't make the right decision (or flat out misses the blitz).

All in all, I think when we have 2 healthy running backs, this offense will really shine. Arian Foster being out has really hurt this team.

Hervoyel
11-08-2013, 08:36 AM
I love the fact that Case makes the deep throw. I don't think you can win in the NFL if you don't threaten the deep ball, because the DBs will sit on routes (see Matt Schaub pick 6)

That said, teams are now going to be gameplanning for Keenum. Maybe AJ can still beat them down the field. I do think that Kubiak has more options now and that will have a huge impact on this offense.

Keenum still has to improve on some things. He missed a lot of short slant routes. He recognizes the blitz, but doesn't make the right decision (or flat out misses the blitz).

All in all, I think when we have 2 healthy running backs, this offense will really shine. Arian Foster being out has really hurt this team.


Agreed but hey, now's the perfect time for him to do it.

Bulls on Parade
11-08-2013, 08:52 AM
Lack of Touchdowns aside, I think Andre Johnson is pretty much a lock for the pro football Hall of Fame. If he has another three or four more strong seasons, I don't see how he will not get in. I'd love to see him win that Super Bowl ring most importantly.

At 2-6, our 2013 season is on the edge of disaster but I do believe we'll beat the Cardinals, Raiders and Jaguars during the next three games to reach 5-6 and be back in the race for the final wild-card spot in the AFC. We'll all take that I'm sure.

Even though it's still pretty bleak that we can beat the Broncos or Patriots at home, much less the Colts on the road (0-11 all time). So finishing 7-9 this season seems likely but you never know. Crazier things have happened before.

Playoffs
11-08-2013, 09:28 AM
I've been a big supporter of the idea that maybe Kubiak was handcuffing Schaub, but this admission from AJ completely opened my eyes. Schaub is limiting this offense, not Kubiak...
I've argued until I'm blue in the face (which is a really tough transition) that Schaub has been the guy making the reads and deciding where he felt he could be safest with the ball. It's hardly ever the play-calling. It's the decision and actions of the guy with the ball in his hand after the snap that makes the difference...

Agree, it's been Schaub all along. He checks down short by nature, which shortens the field for the defense, and he can't extend a play with his legs.

Case in point, look at what Alex Smith has done to Dwayne Bowe. Alex Smith's conservative decisions have turned Bowe into a ghost (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1833278-the-disappearance-of-dwayne-bowe). (3-time 1000 yard WR who had a 15 TDs just three years ago). Bowe is no AJ and one could argue Smith>Schaub today, but it's the same dynamic. Michael Crabtree was a "bust" until Kaepernick got the nod.

Game management is nice. But you need something more dynamic to contend for it all. I'm not sure if Case is the answer... but his play has shown us what "the answer" should look like. And it just doesn't look like Matt Schaub.

Honoring Earl 34
11-08-2013, 09:45 AM
Agree, it's been Schaub all along. He checks down short by nature, which shortens the field for the defense, and he can't extend a play with his legs.

Case in point, look at what Alex Smith has done to Dwayne Bowe. Alex Smith's conservative decisions have turned Bowe into a ghost (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1833278-the-disappearance-of-dwayne-bowe). (3-time 1000 yard WR who had a 15 TDs just three years ago). Bowe is no AJ and one could argue Smith>Schaub today, but it's the same dynamic. Michael Crabtree was a "bust" until Kaepernick got the nod.

Game management is nice. But you need something more dynamic to contend for it all. I'm not sure if Case is the answer... but his play has shown us what "the answer" should look like. And it just doesn't look like Matt Schaub.

The funny thing is , IMO , the league has zeroed in on this which means he's that predictable . I remember one game after a pick 6 , Kubiak reamed him and then Schaub threw a couple deep . He was making the defense cover 30 yards and not worry about spying the QB on a Boot .

thunderkyss
11-10-2013, 12:56 AM
I like the fact that Case Keenum isn't afraid to throw the ball up for AJ to make a play!!

I like that, I LIKE THAT A LOT!!!!!

We'll see if Schaub was afraid, or coached. It's been awhile, but Schaub has tossed it up for the big guy a time or two in the past. The last 'skins game comes to mind.

DocBar
11-10-2013, 10:11 AM
We'll see if Schaub was afraid, or coached. It's been awhile, but Schaub has tossed it up for the big guy a time or two in the past. The last 'skins game comes to mind.Schaub's done it a few times, but just doesn't do it regularly enough. How many times have you screamed at the TV because Schaub missed a wide open receiver and checked down? A lot for me.

I seriously doubt that Kubiak would ream Schaub for scoring too quickly or too often. TD's are much more important than TOP.

IMO, Schaub knows he doesn't have the arm to sling it like Case does, especially after his foot injury.

msbbc833
11-10-2013, 10:25 AM
We'll see if Schaub was afraid, or coached. It's been awhile, but Schaub has tossed it up for the big guy a time or two in the past. The last 'skins game comes to mind.

That was 3 yrs ago!!

thunderkyss
11-10-2013, 02:07 PM
When thinking about the demise of Carr, I keep thinking of the play on Thanksgiving where he throws the ball in the dirt, when there was no defender around him for miles.

The receivers seem to love playing for Schaub, because he makes plays FOR THE RECEIVERS by fighting to BUY MORE TIME for them. Carr never could make plays for the receivers by scrambling or "throwing the receivers open" deep.


Could've swore we had this conversation already.

RTP2110
11-10-2013, 03:45 PM
He's at it again

Rey
11-10-2013, 03:50 PM
Could've swore we had this conversation already.

Schaub is better than Carr but worse than a lot of other better qb's.

Naija Texan
11-10-2013, 07:41 PM
Schaub is better than Carr but worse than a lot of other better qb's.

He didn't start off that way but he certainly has been molded into a bad form due to reliance on his playmakers making something out of nothing for him.

TexansBull
11-10-2013, 10:18 PM
Andre Johnson has 5 tds in the last two games. His career number for tds is 59. So about 10% of his career tds have come in the last two games.



Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express

Vinny
11-10-2013, 10:21 PM
Here is what Big Chief Pad told me:

Throw um ball to AJ in End Zone, make touchdown, dance.

TejasTom
11-11-2013, 07:24 AM
Andre Johnson has 5 tds in the last two games. His career number for tds is 59. So about 10% of his career tds have come in the last two games.



Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express

I'm ok if we do nothing else but get AJ 2-3 TDs per game the rest of the year.

HJam72
11-11-2013, 07:27 AM
Keenum makes plays with his feet.

Schaub did not make plays with his feet.

Carr made plays FOR DWIGHT FREENEY with his feet. :specnatz:

HJam72
11-11-2013, 07:30 AM
Andre Johnson has 5 tds in the last two games. His career number for tds is 59. So about 10% of his career tds have come in the last two games.



Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express

Amazing, ain't it? Who woulda thought if you just throw the ball to your Hall-of-Fame worthy wide-out in the end-zone he will actually catch it! :fans:

BullNation4Life
11-11-2013, 07:49 AM
Amazing, ain't it? Who woulda thought if you just throw the ball to your Hall-of-Fame worthy wide-out in the end-zone he will actually catch it! :fans:

Hey, hey now....that Andre fella, he is a good kid. Just remember, that was me, all me, that wanted that future HOFer. I did some good here, so maybe I should come back and do some more, right?

Signed,

~Charlie C.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zSPK3DXpD4Q/Uh0hktnmuBI/AAAAAAAAYAk/h20teB6IPeE/s320/Charlie+Casserly.JPG

Mr teX
11-11-2013, 09:19 AM
Keenum makes plays with his feet.

Schaub did not make plays with his feet.

Carr made plays FOR DWIGHT FREENEY with his feet. :specnatz:

I wonder about you guys sometimes....Schaub isn't the most mobile, but he has made his share of plays where he's extended plays with his feet. the SD game this year, Schaub was running for his life nearly the entire game & making plays with his feet...We don't win it without him doing that b/c they were all over us that first half.

Texecutioner
11-11-2013, 10:26 AM
I have to wonder if Jerry Rice would have been JERRY RICE G.O.A.T. if he didn't have two HoF QBs throwing the ball to him for the majority of his career.

Sure, the dude would have been elite on any team. But take that talent and put it on a team with Joe Montana and Steve Young, and it takes it out of this world.

Think if AJ had Manning or Brady throwing the ball to him for the past 10 years. How many Super Bowl rings and mentions of first ballot HoF would he have now?

He's that kind of special talent. Unfortunately, he was the only special talent this franchise had for too many years of his career.

Jerry Rice still had a great season or two when he went over to the Raiders and helped a guy who had never been an elite QB in his career to get an MVP award in Gannon. Rice would have put up huge numbers no matter where he was. He was the ultimate professional for his era and didn't need all of the extra physical attributes that some guys have to dominate over everyone else. He used his skill and his intelligence. That's what made Rice so freaking great. Sure, his numbers wouldn't have been quite as good with certain QB's but we could say that about all types of situations. Rice didn't just put up great numbers in his those situations. He put up worldly numbers in those situations. The record for TD's in a season that Moss just broke a few years ago was done by Rice in like 12 games or something like that. There still hasn't been a receiver that has touched Jerry Rice yet. The closest from a domination standpoint I'd say would be Calvin Johnson. He is starting to do some worldly types of things as well now.

Mr teX
11-11-2013, 11:35 AM
Jerry Rice still had a great season or two when he went over to the Raiders and helped a guy who had never been an elite QB in his career to get an MVP award in Gannon. Rice would have put up huge numbers no matter where he was. He was the ultimate professional for his era and didn't need all of the extra physical attributes that some guys have to dominate over everyone else. He used his skill and his intelligence. That's what made Rice so freaking great. Sure, his numbers wouldn't have been quite as good with certain QB's but we could say that about all types of situations. Rice didn't just put up great numbers in his those situations. He put up worldly numbers in those situations. The record for TD's in a season that Moss just broke a few years ago was done by Rice in like 12 games or something like that. There still hasn't been a receiver that has touched Jerry Rice yet. The closest from a domination standpoint I'd say would be Calvin Johnson. He is starting to do some worldly types of things as well now.

Yeah, you have to flip that analogy around...We got a chance to see what Jerry would do with a qb not named Montana on 2 separate occasions..both resulted in SB appearances. It's fair to wonder how Montana would be considered if he didn't have Jerry though....highly doubt Montana is revered as the GOAT qb without Jerry.

infantrycak
11-11-2013, 12:21 PM
Sure, his numbers wouldn't have been quite as good with certain QB's but we could say that about all types of situations.

Sure although not all situations are as tied as QB & WR. Considering the circumstances is common sense not a detraction.

The record for TD's in a season that Moss just broke a few years ago was done by Rice in like 12 games or something like that.

It was 12 games.

Something they have in common? - both set the TD record with a Hall of Fame QB in an All Pro year.

Rice led the league in TDs 6 times, all with HoF QBs, 4 in All Pro seasons.
Moss led the league in TDs 5 times, 2 with a HoF QB in All Pro seasons, all with a QB having a pro bowl season.

It takes nothing away from them to note they were in great positions to maximize their potential. AJ has not. The best AJ has had is a QB who there was sometimes a discussion about whether he was top 10.

eriadoc
11-11-2013, 12:27 PM
Yeah, you have to flip that analogy around...We got a chance to see what Jerry would do with a qb not named Montana on 2 separate occasions..both resulted in SB appearances. It's fair to wonder how Montana would be considered if he didn't have Jerry though....highly doubt Montana is revered as the GOAT qb without Jerry.

Uhh ... Montana won two Super Bowls before Rice ever came along. He also made three All Pro teams. I think he did OK without Rice. It's fair to wonder what Montana might have been without Walsh, but Montana did it without Rice. And Rich Gannon started his career revival 2 full seasons before Rice came along. He posted great numbers in Oakland well before Rice came along. Rice never played without a QB that wasn't at the top of his game until the final two years of his career.

Great players will play great, but when you get a few of them together, they can elevate each other. AJ has yet to play with a great QB.

Mr teX
11-11-2013, 01:43 PM
Uhh ... Montana won two Super Bowls before Rice ever came along. He also made three All Pro teams. I think he did OK without Rice. It's fair to wonder what Montana might have been without Walsh, but Montana did it without Rice. And Rich Gannon started his career revival 2 full seasons before Rice came along. He posted great numbers in Oakland well before Rice came along. Rice never played without a QB that wasn't at the top of his game until the final two years of his career.

Great players will play great, but when you get a few of them together, they can elevate each other. AJ has yet to play with a great QB.


Right, but until Jerry came along, he'd never been 1st team all pro. There's a reason Jerry is the undisputed GOAT at his position & there's a reason why cases can be made for several other guys as being better than Montana. Jerry was consistently great for like 17 years & did it with the most variability. 3 different coaches, 3 different qb's pretty much the same results across the board. Never even came close to getting benched for poor play...unlike Montana.

Gannon began posting good numbers........ right about the time Gruden came in...but it wasn't until Rice got there that he got to MVP level...It's also not a coincidence that that was Gannon's best season as a pro. And remember we're talking about a guy well on the backside of his career...Rice was like 40 when he came to the raiders and was still a stud.

Im not saying that Montana wouldn't have still had a great career without Rice, but the case for him as the GOAT begins & ends with SB's. And a large part of the reason he's even in the discussion as the goat qb is b/c of the 2 SB's he won with Rice later in his career.

eriadoc
11-11-2013, 02:52 PM
Right, but until Jerry came along, he'd never been 1st team all pro. There's a reason Jerry is the undisputed GOAT at his position & there's a reason why cases can be made for several other guys as being better than Montana. Jerry was consistently great for like 17 years & did it with the most variability. 3 different coaches, 3 different qb's pretty much the same results across the board. Never even came close to getting benched for poor play...unlike Montana.

Gannon began posting good numbers........ right about the time Gruden came in...but it wasn't until Rice got there that he got to MVP level...It's also not a coincidence that that was Gannon's best season as a pro. And remember we're talking about a guy well on the backside of his career...Rice was like 40 when he came to the raiders and was still a stud.

Im not saying that Montana wouldn't have still had a great career without Rice, but the case for him as the GOAT begins & ends with SB's. And a large part of the reason he's even in the discussion as the goat qb is b/c of the 2 SB's he won with Rice later in his career.

/boggle

Montana won TWO Super Bowls without Jerry Rice. Are there any two-time Super Bowl QBs that aren't in the HoF? And he wasn't first team? LOL

OK, we're done here. I think Jerry Rice is clearly one of thegreatest five players to ever play the game, but you sound like you're bending over backward to play down Montana's greatness.

And I don't even like the 49ers.

Bulls on Parade
11-11-2013, 02:59 PM
Are there any two-time Super Bowl QBs that aren't in the HoF? And he wasn't first team? LOL
Eli Manning may become the first. While I think he will eventually get into the pro football hall of fame, I don't see it happening for a long while after he retires. Certainly not on the first ballot.

Playoffs
11-12-2013, 04:14 PM
Man, looking back I am in awe of AJ's last two games.

Those two TD catches on Patrick Peterson were ridiculous...


http://www.arizonasports.com/emedia/apimage/23a599c4-6288-4dfd-9a5d-98bb9ab61880.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-exI6HM3_eUo/UoAjkWT0UjI/AAAAAAAADdM/8QCyt0qCWaU/s1600/ANDRE112.gif

And that half against KC was siiiiiick.

14 receptions for 266 yards and 5 TDs.

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/Tejrinde/Emoticons/Bow/smiley_emoticons_kinggrin_anbeten.gif

The last time AJ had 5 or 4 TDs in 2 weeks was never!

DocBar
11-12-2013, 09:55 PM
AJ's TD catch in the 4th quarter is one of the top 1-2 TD catches I've ever seen,