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WolverineFan
11-04-2013, 12:16 AM
Tonight was a perfect example of it and how it loses games. We didn't play with the same aggressiveness on offense or defense in the 2nd half. On offense, we stopped with the playaction and downfield passing game and were content to just run clock. On defense, we stopped blitzing and played soft zone and got ripped up. We played not to lose and that's how you lose games. You play to win the games not to not lose them.

I feel bad for Kubiak, I really hope he's okay. He seems like a great man and hopefully he will be just fine. That said, things would not have been different with him there in the 2nd half. We've seen this team blow leads like this before with him at the helm. This team plays scared with the lead. They won't step on the throat. They are content to just sit on it. They have no killer instinct.

If you watched the Steelers/Pats game earlier today you saw what a real team does. The Pats had the Steelers on the ropes late and stepped on their throats and routed them out of the building. That team was trying to score touchdowns on every drive with a lead late in the game. That kind of aggressiveness and intensity is something this team has never had and is sorely lacking. It's been a dark mark on this franchise for years. We always manage to blow games like this because of the attitude we play with when we have a lead.

JCTexan
11-04-2013, 12:26 AM
I agree about sitting on the lead. At the same time, it's hard to see it as "sitting on the lead" when Bullock is missing game changing FG's. If he hits a couple of those FG's you're looking at a 30-12 lead instead of a 24-12 one. Such a huge difference in those scores in the 4th Quarter of a game.

NastyNate
11-04-2013, 12:30 AM
Blown call on clearly a 3rd down catch, blown FG kicks, what else do you expect?

Mr teX
11-04-2013, 12:32 AM
Well we've got better qb play....Case hasn't thrown an int and hasn't given the other team points.......and guess what? The defense still sucks....play well for a 1/2.... Stink it up for another......that's pretty much how the whole team has been playing all year...people just got distracted and looked over the defense b/c of the pick 6 derby we had going.

#1 defense my ass...when we absolutely have to have it, they can't stop anybody...... They're frauds....been saying it since week 3-4. 20 pts in the 2nd half 15 pts in the 4th......terrible. The sad part about it is i still see folks giving them a pass....the focus is now shifting from the pick 6's and TO's to the **** kicker...

WolverineFan
11-04-2013, 12:33 AM
I agree about sitting on the lead. At the same time, it's hard to see it as "sitting on the lead" when Bullock is missing game changing FG's. If he hits a couple of those FG's you're looking at a 30-12 lead instead of a 24-12 one. Such a huge difference in those scores in the 4th Quarter of a game.

You are correct, big difference. However.....

3 TD's in the 1st half

3 FG's in the 2nd half

We did not play the same offense in the 2nd half. They played conservative and were content to run clock and play for the FG. Keenum took some shots (to his credit), but on the whole, you cannot say we played with the same aggressiveness.

Hervoyel
11-04-2013, 12:34 AM
We do sit on the lead too much. It's not just Gary but the entire organization is like that. I get the idea that at some point you take your foot off the pedal. I just think that point should be about the time you're breaking 40 points. We have no go-for-the-throat mentality in this franchise.

It's a shame but maybe after all these years they'll learn it.... slowly..... the way they learn stuff around here.

WolverineFan
11-04-2013, 12:36 AM
Well we've got better qb play....Case hasn't thrown an int and hasn't given the other team points.......and guess what? The defense still sucks....play well for a 1/2.... Stink it up for another......that's pretty much how the whole team has been playing all year...people just got distracted and looked over the defense b/c of the pick 6 derby we had going.

#1 defense my ass...when we absolutely have to have it, they can't stop anybody...... They're frauds....been saying it since week 3-4. 20 pts in the 2nd half 15 pts in the 4th......terrible. The sad part about it is i still see folks giving them a pass....the focus is now shifting from the pick 6's and TO's to the ****ty kicker.

Defense played with a completely different mentality in the 2nd half. We lived in the backfield in the 1st half. Luck was overrun on every drop back. What about the 2nd half? How many times did we play 8 yards off and sit in a soft zone instead of being aggressive?

I do agree though. Not the #1 defense. That said, the reason you saw two different defenses tonight is because we played with two completely different mentalities in each half. I'm not giving them a pass. They played like garbage the 2nd half. My reasoning is because we went into our big lead shell and played soft in the 2nd half instead of going for the kill.

WolverineFan
11-04-2013, 12:39 AM
Blown call on clearly a 3rd down catch, blown FG kicks, what else do you expect?

Should have never come to that with an 18 point lead. The reason those plays meant anything is because we let Indy back in the game by playing conservative in the 2nd half. JMO.

legacy_gt
11-04-2013, 12:39 AM
it was more than sitting on the leads. it's not black and white like that. there were some huge calls, especially andre catch that didn't get call or reed's elbow. not to mention we lost our coach.

most of all, this game changes if our FG kicker can get 1 out of 3 FG's. cost us 9 pts!!!! wtf?

Mr teX
11-04-2013, 12:40 AM
You are correct, big difference. However.....

3 TD's in the 1st half

3 FG's in the 2nd half

We did not play the same offense in the 2nd half. They played conservative and were content to run clock and play for the FG. Keenum took some shots (to his credit), but on the whole, you cannot say we played with the same aggressiveness.

I mean, give the colts credit, they adjusted...they took away the playaction bootleg and they stiffened a little on the run game...they heated case up and dared him to throw it deep alot. The reality of it is, as much as people like the deep shots, those are low percentage throws...the equivalent of taking 3 pt shots instead of taking the easy 2 in basketball. Most d-coordinators will take there chances with those....if they have confidence in their secondary. Manusky clearly wasn't shaken by keenum's propensity to throw it deep.

hradhak
11-04-2013, 12:44 AM
I mean, give the colts credit, they adjusted...they took away the playaction bootleg and they stiffened a little on the run game...they heated case up and dared him to throw it deep alot. The reality of it is, as much as people like the deep shots, those are low percentage throws...the equivalent of taking 3 pt shots instead of taking the easy 2 in basketball. Most d-coordinators will take there chances with those....if they have confidence in their secondary. Manusky clearly wasn't shaken by keenum's propensity to throw it deep.

Even so, Keenum was hitting those throws. I thinik he only missed one deep throw.

I don't blame Keenum for this loss. Yes, it would have been good if they scored a TD in the 2nd half, but our defense shouldn't give up 3 consecutive TDs and our kicker shouldn't be missing 3 FGs. Keenum played well enough to win. The defense and ST played well enough to lose.

WolverineFan
11-04-2013, 12:44 AM
I mean, give the colts credit, they adjusted...they took away the playaction bootleg and they stiffened a little on the run game...they heated case up and dared him to throw it deep alot. The reality of it is, as much as people like the deep shots, those are low percentage throws...the equivalent of taking 3 pt shots instead of taking the easy 2 in basketball. Most d-coordinators will take there chances with those....if they have confidence in their secondary. Manusky clearly wasn't shaken by keenum's propensity to throw it deep.

My intention isn't to take credit away from Inday. They made adjustments and are a very good football team. I'm merely pointing out that our mentality in each half was polar opposite.

In the 1st half we attacked. We set the tone. In the 2nd half? We sat back and let Indy take control. Why build a lead like that if you're just going to sit back and let the other team do what they want in the 2nd half?

There are a lot of plays you could point at and say they made the difference. I'm merely trying to point out that IMO, those plays would not have meant anything (or near as much) if we had played with the same aggressive mentality in the 2nd half.

Hervoyel
11-04-2013, 12:45 AM
Well we've got better qb play....Case hasn't thrown an int and hasn't given the other team points.......and guess what? The defense still sucks....play well for a 1/2.... Stink it up for another......that's pretty much how the whole team has been playing all year...people just got distracted and looked over the defense b/c of the pick 6 derby we had going.

#1 defense my ass...when we absolutely have to have it, they can't stop anybody...... They're frauds....been saying it since week 3-4. 20 pts in the 2nd half 15 pts in the 4th......terrible. The sad part about it is i still see folks giving them a pass....the focus is now shifting from the pick 6's and TO's to the **** kicker...

I give them a pass not because Bullock stepped up to take the fire from Schaub but because without Cushing and with Reed back there I already understand that they're frauds.

The DL isn't bad at all but frankly Mitchell isn't the guy. We need to beast in the middle and we don't have him. For some reason they don't seem to think that's important.

The LB's aren't bad at all but once Cushing goes down they go from pretty good to very ordinary. We need one or two guys on the inside, maybe another on the outside too. Guys who are better than Sharpton (God he's bad) and better than Mays. Mays should be about at the end of our depth chart but he's not. He's a guy we were depending on.

Our Secondary isn't all that either but everything broken or short-handed in front of them just really puts them on the spot. Add to that the "play" of Ed Reed and the fact that we've got guys like Brice McCain still seeing major time and we need players. We should have kept Quinn, still gone out and drafted Swearinger.... Then gone and found a better CB than McCain. He's the test. As long as Brice McCain has a job our secondary still needs help.

I know the parts that are broken, I think we all do. With an offense not spotting the opponent 7 points every week and with a kicker who actually hits a FG when it's needed I think the defense is broken but mostly ok.

I don't even care anymore this year. I just want to see Keenum keep developing and win some games. I need to see that he's the real thing so I can feel good about the Texans passing on a high-end QB in next year's draft which will hopefully fix some of this ****.

Mr teX
11-04-2013, 12:49 AM
Even so, Keenum was hitting those throws. I thinik he only missed one deep throw.

I don't blame Keenum for this loss. Yes, it would have been good if they scored a TD in the 2nd half, but our defense shouldn't give up 3 consecutive TDs and our kicker shouldn't be missing 3 FGs. Keenum played well enough to win. The defense and ST played well enough to lose.

I wanna say He missed 3...2 were EZ shots...

But Im not blaming him either...merely stating that manusky continued to take his chances with keenum throwing it deep even though his defense got burned for 2 TD's on deep throws earlier.

legacy_gt
11-04-2013, 12:51 AM
I wanna say He missed 3...2 were EZ shots...

But Im not blaming him either...merely stating that manusky continued to take his chances with keenum throwing it deep even though his defense got burned for 2 TD's on deep throws earlier.

luck missed a wide open guy in the end zone. our defense also gave up some 2 pt conversions.

WolverineFan
11-04-2013, 12:52 AM
Even so, Keenum was hitting those throws. I thinik he only missed one deep throw.

I don't blame Keenum for this loss. Yes, it would have been good if they scored a TD in the 2nd half, but our defense shouldn't give up 3 consecutive TDs and our kicker shouldn't be missing 3 FGs. Keenum played well enough to win. The defense and ST played well enough to lose.

Keenum played great. Very impressive.

The problem is we had 483 yards and scored 24 points. We were too content to sit on the lead and play for FG's instead of blowing the game open. New England went up 10 points on Pittsburgh at the start of the 4th quarter. Did they sit on the lead? No, they won by 24 and blew them out of the building. We had that opportunity and we pissed it away by playing pvssy-foot football in the 2nd half.

hradhak
11-04-2013, 12:55 AM
I wanna say He missed 3...2 were EZ shots...

But Im not blaming him either...merely stating that manusky continued to take his chances with keenum throwing it deep even though his defense got burned for 2 TD's on deep throws earlier.

I think with a little more time under center, Keenum will iron out some of his inaccuracies on the shorter throws. I will happily take 50% on the deep balls (I think that's what the % was). He missed a few slants that could have extended drives. I think he read the defense better and picked up the blitzes.

I do think not having Foster really hurt this team more than we realize. Our running game could have killed more clock down the stretch. Tate and Johnson played well, but Foster seems to have an extra level against the Colts

Mr teX
11-04-2013, 12:57 AM
I give them a pass not because Bullock stepped up to take the fire from Schaub but because without Cushing and with Reed back there I already understand that they're frauds.

The DL isn't bad at all but frankly Mitchell isn't the guy. We need to beast in the middle and we don't have him. For some reason they don't seem to think that's important.

The LB's aren't bad at all but once Cushing goes down they go from pretty good to very ordinary. We need one or two guys on the inside, maybe another on the outside too. Guys who are better than Sharpton (God he's bad) and better than Mays. Mays should be about at the end of our depth chart but he's not. He's a guy we were depending on.

Our Secondary isn't all that either but everything broken or short-handed in front of them just really puts them on the spot. Add to that the "play" of Ed Reed and the fact that we've got guys like Brice McCain still seeing major time and we need players. We should have kept Quinn, still gone out and drafted Swearinger.... Then gone and found a better CB than McCain. He's the test. As long as Brice McCain has a job our secondary still needs help.

I know the parts that are broken, I think we all do. With an offense not spotting the opponent 7 points every week and with a kicker who actually hits a FG when it's needed I think the defense is broken but mostly ok.

I don't even care anymore this year. I just want to see Keenum keep developing and win some games. I need to see that he's the real thing so I can feel good about the Texans passing on a high-end QB in next year's draft which will hopefully fix some of this ****.

Agree with the bolded...Case looks good and im just about ready to jump on the bandwagon....just need to see him keep it up for a couple more games to convince me we can put off taking a qb early though....i'm already resigned to the fact that he is likely saving kubiak's job....oh well, you cant have everything i guess..

hradhak
11-04-2013, 12:57 AM
Keenum played great. Very impressive.

The problem is we had 483 yards and scored 24 points. We were too content to sit on the lead and play for FG's instead of blowing the game open. New England went up 10 points on Pittsburgh at the start of the 4th quarter. Did they sit on the lead? No, they won by 24 and blew them out of the building. We had that opportunity and we pissed it away by playing pvssy-foot football in the 2nd half.

I blame some of that on playcalling though. Keenum played well enough to win in the end. Giving up 3 consecutive TDs on defense, some terrible ref calls, and an inexplicable 3rd down overturn on the field was ridiculous. Yes it would have been great to step on the gas, but the Colts adjusted and started reading our plays. We needed to keep throwing new stuff out there and didn't

hradhak
11-04-2013, 01:01 AM
Agree with the bolded...Case looks good and im just about ready to jump on the bandwagon....just need to see him keep it up for a couple more games to convince me we can put off taking a qb early though....i'm already resigned to the fact that he is likely saving kubiak's job....oh well, you cant have everything i guess..

I'd be fine with Kubiak going. I wonder though how much influence Kubiak can have on getting Keenum to grow, or is that something he would do under a new coach on his own. Keenum looks good enough to succeed in any system. He can make throws that Schaub can't. I definitely think Schaub's stat success was largely the system he was in.

If Keenum finishes strong the rest of the way, I don't think you need a QB in the draft. I'd rather we spend high draft picks on a NT, ILB, FS / SS, and a RT. It's obvious that our deficiency at this point is really on defense.

WolverineFan
11-04-2013, 01:02 AM
I blame some of that on playcalling though. Keenum played well enough to win in the end. Giving up 3 consecutive TDs on defense, some terrible ref calls, and an inexplicable 3rd down overturn on the field was ridiculous. Yes it would have been great to step on the gas, but the Colts adjusted and started reading our plays. We needed to keep throwing new stuff out there and didn't

I'm not blaming Keenum at all. It's all on the playcalling. We didn't play with that same edge that we had in the 1st half and it obviously hurt our production.

Defensively, we didn't put the same kind of pressure on Luck in the 2nd half and he tore us apart. Our crappy DB play caught up with us in the end yet again.

Bulls on Parade
11-04-2013, 01:05 AM
We left 12 points on the table. The 4th and 1 we failed to convert early in the game which could have been a field goal attempt from about extra point range. And then the other three misses by Randy Bullock. Those could have won us the game obviously.

hradhak
11-04-2013, 01:08 AM
I'm not blaming Keenum at all. It's all on the playcalling. We didn't play with that same edge that we had in the 1st half and it obviously hurt our production.

Defensively, we didn't put the same kind of pressure on Luck in the 2nd half and he tore us apart. Our crappy DB play caught up with us in the end yet again.

Yeah the defense really frustrated me in the 2nd half. We got some hurries, but they weren't good enough to get Luck off target. I'm also just amazed at our lack of ability to create turnovers. I think our DBs are playing the receiver more than the ball and we end up never making plays on the ball.

That and Brice McCain is terrible and we need a better 3rd string CB.

fiasco west
11-04-2013, 01:08 AM
I'd be fine with Kubiak going. I wonder though how much influence Kubiak can have on getting Keenum to grow, or is that something he would do under a new coach on his own. Keenum looks good enough to succeed in any system. He can make throws that Schaub can't. I definitely think Schaub's stat success was largely the system he was in.

If Keenum finishes strong the rest of the way, I don't think you need a QB in the draft. I'd rather we spend high draft picks on a NT, ILB, FS / SS, and a RT. It's obvious that our deficiency at this point is really on defense.

It'll be interesting...if we keep losing the way we do (against bad teams and good teams) we may have a chance to draft Clowney...

WolverineFan
11-04-2013, 01:11 AM
It'll be interesting...if we keep losing the way we do (against bad teams and good teams) we may have a chance to draft Clowney...

I said this in another thread but I'll say it again......I want nothing to do with Clowney. He's lazy. Even Spurrier is just about done with him. Give me a guy with a relentless work ethic over a guy with all the tools but no desire to use them.

fiasco west
11-04-2013, 01:15 AM
I said this in another thread but I'll say it again......I want nothing to do with Clowney. He's lazy. Even Spurrier is just about done with him. Give me a guy with a relentless work ethic over a guy with all the tools but no desire to use them.

Guess we will see, I don't really pay attention to that stuff. I think Clowney may have the "I'm just trying to get through the year healthy..." mentality and I can't blame a player for that.

Bulls on Parade
11-04-2013, 01:24 AM
I said this in another thread but I'll say it again......I want nothing to do with Clowney. He's lazy. Even Spurrier is just about done with him. Give me a guy with a relentless work ethic over a guy with all the tools but no desire to use them.
Clowney would be another Mario Williams. Crazy talent but takes some plays off, has a lazy work ethic. I could care less if he looks good without a T-shirt and in shorts at the NFL combine. The better football player is going to be C.J. Mosley and that's a position of need for us.

hradhak
11-04-2013, 01:26 AM
I said this in another thread but I'll say it again......I want nothing to do with Clowney. He's lazy. Even Spurrier is just about done with him. Give me a guy with a relentless work ethic over a guy with all the tools but no desire to use them.

Yeah. Clowney reminds me a lot of Mario Williams. His stats are pretty mediocre and I think that has hurt his draft status. He has a lot of hype going for him.

I dunno enough about the rest of the d line draft class, but Clowney sounds like he'd be perfect for the Cowboys. :d:

fiasco west
11-04-2013, 01:34 AM
The defense was insanely good with Mario Williams though and Watt.

Texecutioner
11-04-2013, 01:45 AM
Well we've got better qb play....Case hasn't thrown an int and hasn't given the other team points.......and guess what? The defense still sucks....play well for a 1/2.... Stink it up for another......that's pretty much how the whole team has been playing all year...people just got distracted and looked over the defense b/c of the pick 6 derby we had going.

#1 defense my ass...when we absolutely have to have it, they can't stop anybody...... They're frauds....been saying it since week 3-4. 20 pts in the 2nd half 15 pts in the 4th......terrible. The sad part about it is i still see folks giving them a pass....the focus is now shifting from the pick 6's and TO's to the **** kicker...

This is straight up bull****. This coaching staff in this game sat on the lead. They did nothing in the 2nd half to step on the other team's throat. Typical game from this organization's mind set. We've seen it for years.

speedfreek
11-04-2013, 01:57 AM
I do not believe Dennison ever called any plays.
I believe he was there as a prop while Gary
ran the offense.

When Gary went out, and Rick had to call the plays,
with Wade trying to play HC+DC it was noticeable
that the gameplan went basic.

I don't think Case couldn't handle the playbook -- I
think Dennison was guessing without a real clue
of what the offensive strategy should have been
in the second half..

TJ

klockWork
11-04-2013, 02:08 AM
If you watched the Steelers/Pats game earlier today you saw what a real team does. The Pats had the Steelers on the ropes late and stepped on their throats and routed them out of the building. That team was trying to score touchdowns on every drive with a lead late in the game. That kind of aggressiveness and intensity is something this team has never had and is sorely lacking. It's been a dark mark on this franchise for years. We always manage to blow games like this because of the attitude we play with when we have a lead.
I don't think Bellichik would've play that aggressive if that was Brady second start of his NFL career. Bellichik could afford that type of playcalling because of the trust he has for Brady that developed from all those years. If Keenum turn out to be the real deal I'm sure the playcalling would be very different.

WolverineFan
11-04-2013, 02:15 AM
I don't think Bellichik would've play that aggressive if that was Brady second start of his NFL career. Bellichik could afford that type of playcalling because of the trust he has for Brady that developed from all those years. If Keenum turn out to be the real deal I'm sure the playcalling would be very different.

Maybe so. Belichick sure as heck wouldn't have played soft prevent defense in the 2nd half though. He would have kept his that aggressive swarm going all night long.

It happened on both sides of the ball and it's not just tonight. It's a mentality with this team and this regime. When the Texans get a big lead they take their foot off the gas and let you back in the game. When the Pats, Packers, 49ers, etc get a big lead they embarrass you. Completely different attitude that those teams have.

fiasco west
11-04-2013, 02:36 AM
Maybe so. Belichick sure as heck wouldn't have played soft prevent defense in the 2nd half though. He would have kept his that aggressive swarm going all night long.

It happened on both sides of the ball and it's not just tonight. It's a mentality with this team and this regime. When the Texans get a big lead they take their foot off the gas and let you back in the game. When the Pats, Packers, 49ers, etc get a big lead they embarrass you. Completely different attitude that those teams have.

Yep, can completely agree with this.

I was rolling my eyes to hear Chris and whatshisname talk about how the Texans had a easy schedule from here on out and how they will be 2 games back as if they had it in the bag. I KNEW the colts were coming back.

I do think things would have been different with Kubes though, he was calling a great aggressive game this time around. I sort of feel like Schaub has kind of neutered Kubes (not saying he should be given another year. Definitely not saying that) but the offense with Case was night and day different than the one with Schaub.

I figured a defensive coach would come in and try to run out the clock and rely more on the defense...defense was really disappointing though.

qqert
11-04-2013, 04:16 AM
sitting on a lead is a bad game strategy.
why did we forego the deep bombs in the 3Q?

HouTx11
11-04-2013, 05:06 AM
Totally agree with the spirit of this thread.

Bullock needs to be replaced, even I will acknowledge that now. However, wasn't the Texans up 21-3 at halftime? All the Texans would have to do is stop Indy from scoring 18 points and they win the game without scoring another point!!!!

Bullock needs to go, but if you are allowing teams to come back and win games after being down by 18 at halftime, I PROMISE you that there are more issues on the team than just the kicker!

DX-TEX
11-04-2013, 09:47 AM
I do not believe Dennison ever called any plays.
I believe he was there as a prop while Gary
ran the offense.

When Gary went out, and Rick had to call the plays,
with Wade trying to play HC+DC it was noticeable
that the gameplan went basic.

I don't think Case couldn't handle the playbook -- I
think Dennison was guessing without a real clue
of what the offensive strategy should have been
in the second half..

TJ

PDS ‏@PatDStat 55m
Andre made a point to say that plays were taking longer to get to the huddle. The entire flow to the game was shot. #Texans




Yep

Honoring Earl 34
11-04-2013, 10:04 AM
Maybe so. Belichick sure as heck wouldn't have played soft prevent defense in the 2nd half though. He would have kept his that aggressive swarm going all night long.

It happened on both sides of the ball and it's not just tonight. It's a mentality with this team and this regime. When the Texans get a big lead they take their foot off the gas and let you back in the game. When the Pats, Packers, 49ers, etc get a big lead they embarrass you. Completely different attitude that those teams have.

I think it was after the block FG that the Texans had a 3rd and short deep on the Indy side of the field . Every body in the stadium knew a run was coming and the Colts stuffed it . The Texans went for it on 4th down and did the same thing with the same results . You could feel the air go out of the balloon a bit .

With the games rules today , you never let up . The league wants offense which makes ground and pound is obsolete . A great defense now is one that makes timely plays whether it's through turnovers or timely sacks .

cuppacoffee
11-04-2013, 10:34 AM
We left 12 points on the table. The 4th and 1 we failed to convert early in the game which could have been a field goal attempt from about extra point range. And then the other three misses by Randy Bullock. Those could have won us the game obviously.


I can't assume that Bullock would have made the chip shot field goal.

We should be looking at free agent kickers Tuesday, and sign the best of the lot.

Shane Lechlers short punt gave Indy some good field position too. I think it led to a short TD drive if my memory serves me. But I seldom trust my memory anymore. :)

And I agree that the team predictably went into a shell with the lead at halftime.

I wish Kubiak a speedy recovery and a new job somewhere else.

:coffee: