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God of Wine
07-11-2005, 06:43 PM
gotitans.com take on the QB debate (http://www.gotitans.com/artman/publish/article_00753.shtml)

QB Debate: David Carr vs. Byron Leftwich
Jul 10, 2005 by Bill Walker


One of the more difficult fantasy draft picks this season, may be the backup QB, the spot starter or bye week replacement for your stud QB. Not to say that Byron Leftwich of the Jacksonville Jaguars or David Carr of the Houston Texans could not have a breakout year and carry your team as a regular starter, but neither of them have had that sort of season. Both are rising QBs, tough, physical, big, and full of potential.

Lucky
07-11-2005, 09:36 PM
From the article linked above:
Given the statistics of Byron Leftwich and David Carr are so similar, a fantasy franchise owner may have to go on things like strength of schedule, gut instinct, and surrounding support cast. Since gut instinct varies from person to person and Strength of Schedule is highly unreliable in this writerís opinion (And both teams are in the AFC South so differences in SOS are minimal), the nod would have to go to Leftwich. Jacksonville has a better support system surrounding Leftwich. WRs Jimmy Smith, Reggie Williams, Troy Edwards, Matt Jones, and Ernest Wilford give Leftwich a more reliable corps of WRs to throw to than Houstonís Andre Johnson, Corey Bradford, and Jabar Gaffney.
Really? The Jags top 4 WRs last season combined for 170-2244-10. The top 4 Texan WRs (include Armstrong) totaled 176-2588-12. Both teams picked up project WRs in the draft (Matt Jones & Jerome Mathis). I can't see where Leftwich has more reliable receivers than does Carr. And I'm not even including Domanick Davis, who's more productive as a receiver than anyone the Jags bring out of the backfield.

I think the author is correct that little seperates Carr & Leftwich fantasy wise. I'd rate both in the 10-15 area as far as QB ratings. As far as who will be the better QB on the field, I'll go with Carr. Based on "gut instinct".

Carr Bombed
07-12-2005, 05:20 AM
Also Jerome Mathis isn't half the project that Matt Jones is, seeing how he actually played WR in colllege.

cyanides
07-12-2005, 07:06 AM
All I know is if you have Leftwich as your backup and he is facing the Texans the week your starter has a bye you might think about leaving you starter in. When was the last time Leftwich scored a touchdown against the Texans?

El Tejano
07-12-2005, 09:40 AM
Besides you have to consider that Carr will beat Leftwich twice this season.

Hervoyel
07-12-2005, 10:11 AM
Besides you have to consider that Carr will beat Leftwich twice this season.

...again.

Fury
07-12-2005, 10:30 AM
For the Texans receiving corps to improve, Jabar Gaffney will have to step up to be the kind of impact player he was in college. I believe he can, after all, he's only 24 after 3 seasons in the NFL. Plus, over half of his receiving yards last year came on 3rd down. Corey Bradford is as good as he ever will be, and is not #2 caliber. I think Andre Johnson will put up top-5 WR numbers this year and in the future, but he can't do it by himself.

Vinny
07-12-2005, 12:22 PM
Gaffney lead the Texans in YPC (yes, more than Andre Johnson), had the longest pass play from scrimmage last year, and Carr threw to Gaffney 21 times on third down in 2004 and completed each pass for a first down. Some of Gaffney's lack of production comes out of the fact that Carr isn't one of the better QB's at scanning the field and reading defenses and will look to his primary too long and just dump the ball off to Dom. If you really break down Carr's passes over the 4 years he has always had trouble identifying his mid-read options. His rookie year was all Bradford (first read) and Billy Miller (last read - safety valve at that time). Not much in the middle then either.

DreamCatcher
07-12-2005, 01:10 PM
Carr is the QB i would go with out of the two.If he has the targets to throw to, he will hit them consistently.

rittenhouserobz
07-12-2005, 03:05 PM
Carr is able to scramble for the occasional 10-yard run. Leftwhich is not able to do that as much. They both have made some nice TD passes. They both have thrown untimely int's and had fumbles. Leftwhich had an advantage in Fred Taylor as a RB, until he was hurt. Now I think DD is going to be better than anyone the Jags have at the moment to help draw attention from their respective QB's. I am not sure, but the Texans OL could not have gotten much worse in pass protection and we still swept the Jags. I would take Carr over Leftwhich.

tsip
07-12-2005, 04:38 PM
"Houston has not shown the marked improvement one would like to see, even in an expansion team."

...bet this guy doesn't know most Texans fans will be happy with a one
game improvement this year to 8-8...but, he makes a good point about
our consistency and the last 9 games last year--oh,well, he'll just have
to join the many others for a 'crow' supper :highfive:

Vinny
07-12-2005, 04:52 PM
Only 6 teams won more than 10 games last year. I guess we should have been one of them.

jagsfanincanada
07-12-2005, 05:16 PM
Of course you will all take Carr, you are all Texans fans.

At least Leftwich can beat Manning.

Hervoyel
07-12-2005, 05:40 PM
Of course you will all take Carr, you are all Texans fans.

At least Leftwich can beat Manning.


True. Beating Manning and the Colts is something to hang your hat on. I'm hoping Carr and the Texans can at least get a split with him this year. I'd rather be over .500 and not get swept by the Colts again than beat the Jags twice in 2005.

disaacks3
07-12-2005, 05:43 PM
Some of Gaffney's lack of production comes out of the fact that Carr isn't one of the better QB's at scanning the field and reading defenses and will look to his primary too long and just dump the ball off to Dom. If you really break down Carr's passes over the 4 years he has always had trouble identifying his mid-read options. I'll buy that, though some of it was protection-related (AKA O-Line suckage). Gaffney really impressed me last year with his willingness to make the kind of over-the-middle catches that Keyshawn is famous for.

Blake
07-12-2005, 05:46 PM
Of course you will all take Carr, you are all Texans fans.

At least Leftwich can beat Manning.

So... Leftwich was 1 and 3 vs. the Colts/Texans this season... Good point.

stephen1
07-12-2005, 06:46 PM
you have to take carr in this one because just look at the number of times he has been sacked. i would like to see leftwich put up those numbers while getting sacked 40 times a season

tsip
07-12-2005, 08:04 PM
you have to take carr in this one because just look at the number of times he has been sacked. i would like to see leftwich put up those numbers while getting sacked 40 times a season

I know several of you have stats for 'everything' so how about letting
us no how many sacks were Carr's fault last year because--

1) runs out of bounds behind line of scrimage (counts as a sack in the
NFL) instead of throwing the ball away
2) holds on to the ball too long
3) weak at reading defense--looks primarily for 1st read and then check
valve
4) bales out of the pocket at the first sign of pressure

...thanks! :)

TopTexanFan16
07-12-2005, 08:55 PM
I know several of you have stats for 'everything' so how about letting
us no how many sacks were Carr's fault last year because--

1) runs out of bounds behind line of scrimage (counts as a sack in the
NFL) instead of throwing the ball away
2) holds on to the ball too long
3) weak at reading defense--looks primarily for 1st read and then check
valve
4) bales out of the pocket at the first sign of pressure

...thanks! :)

k so you'd rather him throw and INT instead of runnin out of bounds or throwing it away and possibly gettin a flag. or you'd rather him throw it away with the first sign of pressure than hold on to it and try to make somethin happen or here this is the best one you'd rather him sit in the pocket knowing what will happened which has happened 140 times before that the O-line wont hold up and get his head ripped off. i dunno but the pressure being in his face isnt his fault.....thax!

tsip
07-12-2005, 09:02 PM
"and possibly gettin a flag. "

...no flag for throwing outside the box but---thanks--I won my bet!! :drool:

rmartin65
07-12-2005, 09:15 PM
It is better to be sacked than to throw an interception or get a penalty

DocBar
07-12-2005, 10:06 PM
It is better to be sacked than to throw an interception or get a penalty
It is better to avoid the rush, pump fake then hit the open receiver for a td than thrown an INT or get sacked. Bret Favre does it all the time. LOL
:homer:

Fldvldog
07-12-2005, 10:13 PM
It is better to avoid the rush, pump fake then hit the open receiver for a td than thrown an INT or get sacked. Bret Favre does it all the time. LOL
:homer:


Favre is one of the best at it...

Texas_Thrill
07-12-2005, 10:29 PM
I honestly like both QB's equally. If I was starting a team and I had to choose b/w the two I'd simply close my eyes and throw a dart. I think both are higly competitive, and higly capable of being the franchise as they are proving to be. I'm a Texan fan all day but I'm not going to deny the future greatness of Leftwich. I just hope our TEAM is better than his.

Hervoyel
07-12-2005, 10:49 PM
It is better to avoid the rush, pump fake then hit the open receiver for a td than thrown an INT or get sacked. Bret Favre does it all the time. LOL
:homer:


And of course if the TD isn't there it's better to get outside the tackles and throw it into the third row before running out of bounds and hanging another sack on your line. They already do a good enough job of piling them up without help from the QB.

Fldvldog
07-12-2005, 11:20 PM
I honestly like both QB's equally. If I was starting a team and I had to choose b/w the two I'd simply close my eyes and throw a dart. I think both are higly competitive, and higly capable of being the franchise as they are proving to be. I'm a Texan fan all day but I'm not going to deny the future greatness of Leftwich. I just hope our TEAM is better than his.

That is nice to hear -- especially from a Texan fan... :pepper:

rittenhouserobz
07-13-2005, 06:47 AM
Of course you will all take Carr, you are all Texans fans.

At least Leftwich can beat Manning.

Sandwhich did not beat Payaton. This is a team sport. The wins and losses do not hang on a single person. I am sure if you reflect on that win you will see it was a team effort. Persoanlly I think your backup can be as good as leftwich at times.

Here are the stats for that game. Manning had a better day than your QB, but he lost. The Jags were just better that day.

stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=241024011)

I am sorry if I am being a little rude, but I can't stand to see somebody say one QB beat another QB. :brickwall

Fldvldog
07-13-2005, 02:47 PM
Sandwhich did not beat Payaton. This is a team sport. The wins and losses do not hang on a single person. I am sure if you reflect on that win you will see it was a team effort. Persoanlly I think your backup can be as good as leftwich at times.

Here are the stats for that game. Manning had a better day than your QB, but he lost. The Jags were just better that day.

stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=241024011)

I am sorry if I am being a little rude, but I can't stand to see somebody say one QB beat another QB. :brickwall

Really? Because I endlessly hear from numerous Texan fans how "David Carr beat the Jags." I know there are some Texan fans with some sense in them, but some of them... :brickwall

Texas_Thrill
07-17-2005, 04:19 PM
Yes we all know its a team sport but let's be real here most victories are always associated with the QB.

I mean someone will say Dan Marino has the best winning % of any qb not Anthony Munoz has the best winning % of any OL.

The qb's are the pretty boys and get all the credit (and all the blame.)

TexansTrueFan
07-17-2005, 07:24 PM
carr had a pretty solid season last year, of course he has room for improvment but he will only get better.

Jagsbch
07-18-2005, 04:23 AM
Gaffney lead the Texans in YPC (yes, more than Andre Johnson), had the longest pass play from scrimmage last year, and Carr threw to Gaffney 21 times on third down in 2004 and completed each pass for a first down. Some of Gaffney's lack of production comes out of the fact that Carr isn't one of the better QB's at scanning the field and reading defenses and will look to his primary too long and just dump the ball off to Dom. If you really break down Carr's passes over the 4 years he has always had trouble identifying his mid-read options. His rookie year was all Bradford (first read) and Billy Miller (last read - safety valve at that time). Not much in the middle then either.

I know several of you have stats for 'everything' so how about letting
us no how many sacks were Carr's fault last year because--

1) runs out of bounds behind line of scrimage (counts as a sack in the
NFL) instead of throwing the ball away
2) holds on to the ball too long
3) weak at reading defense--looks primarily for 1st read and then check
valve
4) bales out of the pocket at the first sign of pressure

...thanks! :)

The thing I like most about Byron is his composure in the pocket. His ability to hit more WR''s week in and week out than any QB in the league, reveals just how astute Byron is at scanning the field and being able to read coverages knowing how all of his WR's routes will unfold in the coverage, while simultaneouly being able to throw inbetween three defenders with pin point accuracy as well as some of the hottest velocity in the league. Last year Byron was surrounded by up and coming rookies, bang up trenches, ball and chain scheme and not to mention a concusion during the last Texan game... this year those rookies are looking to emerge. Jimmy said this is the best group of WR's this team has ever had.

Don't count Matt Jones out, oh and furthermore our defense is going to really go a long way in helping us gain the time of possession neccessary to rack up some decent stats this year. I go with Byron and not look back. :drool:

TommyS
07-18-2005, 11:44 AM
I honestly like both QB's equally. If I was starting a team and I had to choose b/w the two I'd simply close my eyes and throw a dart. .

cross your eyes and throw a dart and you're bound to hit leftwich coz he's one BIG S.O.B.


I just saw the EA QB challenge on CBS this weekend (my cable will be installed for the start of preseason...) and thats one fat-*** looking QB.

Lucky
07-18-2005, 02:36 PM
The thing I like most about Byron is his composure in the pocket. His ability to hit more WR''s week in and week out than any QB in the league, reveals just how astute Byron is at scanning the field and being able to read coverages knowing how all of his WR's routes will unfold in the coverage, while simultaneouly being able to throw inbetween three defenders with pin point accuracy as well as some of the hottest velocity in the league...
Wow, hard to believe Leftwich didn't make All Pro after that description. I'm still trying to determine how an astute, pinpoint accurate QB like Byron finished behind David Carr in completion % and yards/pass. If he's hitting more WR's than any QB in the league, week in and week out, wouldn't Leftwich have ranked higher than 18th in completion %?

Vinny
07-18-2005, 02:41 PM
I had Leftwich in front of Carr before last year but when we played the Jags the contrast in the two QB's was stark and I think Carr has much more upside now. Bottom line is I think Leftwich will be another Bledsoe. Big, strong-armed guy who is easy to hit in the pocket and needs a great line because he can't move. Unlike guys like Dan Marino, Leftwich has a slower release and that hurts him as a pocket only type QB.

Jwwillis
07-18-2005, 02:43 PM
It is better to be sacked than to throw an interception or get a penalty

yes and maybe

Carr Bombed
07-18-2005, 05:03 PM
Wow, hard to believe Leftwich didn't make All Pro after that description. I'm still trying to determine how an astute, pinpoint accurate QB like Byron finished behind David Carr in completion % and yards/pass. If he's hitting more WR's than any QB in the league, week in and week out, wouldn't Leftwich have ranked higher than 18th in completion %?

Thank you, for a second there, I thought he was talking about Peyton Manning.

TexanFanInCC
07-19-2005, 12:31 AM
Of course you will all take Carr, you are all Texans fans.

At least Leftwich can beat Manning.

yall's defense is better...at least yall can pass rush. overall, david owns byron