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Blake
10-23-2013, 05:02 PM
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-sec-success-missouri-20131019,0,3066565.story#axzz2ia2NRcpX

I tend to agree that the SEC is put up on a pedestal that it doesnt deserve. While it obviously has huge programs that drive the conference, they are not head and shoulders above everyone else, contrary to popular belief.

And yes, I know they have won 7 straight titles which is impressive. But they are always topping the poles due to their supremacy bias.

Wolf6151
10-23-2013, 05:21 PM
What's the SEC's record in bowl games against non-conference opponents, or record in the regular season against non-conference opponents? I don't know the answer but I think it's pretty damn good. I don't think the SEC is overrated, I think they've earned their reputation as the best. Rankings aside I can see it when I watch the games, the SEC teams are faster, bigger, stronger, and tougher. The number of players that are selected in the draft every year should also be a telling stat. I don't know the numbers, but I'll bet it's alot.

Dutchrudder
10-23-2013, 05:41 PM
Bowl records from 98-12 by conference: http://www.mrsec.com/2013/01/conference-bowl-records-this-year-and-last-15-years/

(easier to view at the link)

Conference All Bowls 98-12 BCS Bowls 98-12 All Bowls 2012 BCS Bowls 2012
Big West 2-0 (100.0%) 0-0 0-0 0-0
Big East 46-29 (61.3%) 8-7 3-2 1-0
SEC 73-50 (59.3%) 17-8 6-3 1-1
MWC 32-24 (57.1%) 3-1 1-4 0-0
Pac-10/12 41-45 (47.5%) 13-7 4-4 2-0
Big XII 57-63 (47.5%) 9-11 4-5 0-1
ACC 49-55 (47.1%) 3-13 4-2 1-0
WAC 23-28 (45.0%) 2-1 2-0 0-0
C-USA 33-41 (44.5%) 0-0 4-1 0-0
Big Ten 47-59 (44.3%) 12-14 2-5 0-1
Sun Belt 10-13 (43.4%) 0-0 2-2 0-0
MAC 21-28 (42.8%) 0-1 2-5 0-1

It's not the best measure, and certainly not the only one, but the SEC has done really well in bowl games during the BCS era. I think 2013 is a down year for the conference, but Alabama is still exceptionally good, and I expect to see them play Oregon for the MNC game. The mid-tier teams have a lot of issues this year, but it's not much different than any other conference. This year, sure the SEC is over-rated. The last 6 years though? No, not really. They have been dominating.

TexansSeminole
10-23-2013, 05:56 PM
What's the SEC's record in bowl games against non-conference opponents, or record in the regular season against non-conference opponents? I don't know the answer but I think it's pretty damn good. I don't think the SEC is overrated, I think they've earned their reputation as the best. Rankings aside I can see it when I watch the games, the SEC teams are faster, bigger, stronger, and tougher. The number of players that are selected in the draft every year should also be a telling stat. I don't know the numbers, but I'll bet it's alot.

As far as this year goes:

Kentucky beat Miami (OH), lost to Western Kentucky and Louisville. 1-2

Vanderbilt beat Austin Peay, UAB, and UMASS. 3-0.

Tennessee beat Austin Peay, Western Kentucky, South Alabama, lost to Oregon. 3-1

Georgia beat North Texas, lost to Clemson. 1-1.

Florida beat Toledo, lost to Miami. 1-1.

South Carolina beat North Carolina and UCF. 2-0.

Missouri beat Murray State, Toledo, Indiana, and Arkansas State. 4-0.

Arkansas beat Louisiana-Lafayette, Samford, and Southern Miss, lost to Rutgers. 3-1.

Mississippi State beat Alcorn State, Troy, and Bowling Green, lost to Oklahoma State. 3-1.

Ole Miss beat SE Missouri State, and Texas. 2-0.

A&M beat Rice, Sam Houston State, and SMU. 3-0.

LSU beat TCU, UAB, and Kent State. 3-0.

Auburn beat Washington State, Arkansas State, and Western Carolina. 3-0.

Alabama beat Virginia Tech, Colorado State, and Georgia State. 3-0.

That's a record of 35-7. Nice record, but not a lot of impressive victories. Almost all are against pretty weak competition and the conference has lost some big games. You'd have to compare that to other conferences and then look at strength of schedule.

SEC is definitely down this year.

htownfan32
10-23-2013, 06:16 PM
As far as this year goes:

Kentucky beat Miami (OH), lost to Western Kentucky and Louisville. 1-2

Vanderbilt beat Austin Peay, UAB, and UMASS. 3-0.

Tennessee beat Austin Peay, Western Kentucky, South Alabama, lost to Oregon. 3-1

Georgia beat North Texas, lost to Clemson. 1-1.

Florida beat Toledo, lost to Miami. 1-1.

South Carolina beat North Carolina and UCF. 2-0.

Missouri beat Murray State, Toledo, Indiana, and Arkansas State. 4-0.

Arkansas beat Louisiana-Lafayette, Samford, and Southern Miss, lost to Rutgers. 3-1.

Mississippi State beat Alcorn State, Troy, and Bowling Green, lost to Oklahoma State. 3-1.

Ole Miss beat SE Missouri State, and Texas. 2-0.

A&M beat Rice, Sam Houston State, and SMU. 3-0.

LSU beat TCU, UAB, and Kent State. 3-0.

Auburn beat Washington State, Arkansas State, and Western Carolina. 3-0.

Alabama beat Virginia Tech, Colorado State, and Georgia State. 3-0.

That's a record of 35-7. Nice record, but not a lot of impressive victories. Almost all are against pretty weak competition and the conference has lost some big games. You'd have to compare that to other conferences and then look at strength of schedule.

SEC is definitely down this year.

How many teams have great out of conference opponents? Look at the SEC facing itself and the quality of football therein.

TexansSeminole
10-23-2013, 06:32 PM
How many teams have great out of conference opponents? Look at the SEC facing itself and the quality of football therein.

That's why I said you would have to look at other conferences and then look at strength of schedule on those out of conference games.

Part of the argument for the SEC being overrated is those SEC conference games. The argument is that the preseason polls overrate SEC teams based on past performance. This carries over into the season when SEC teams play each other, because they end up not dropping far in the rankings when they lose to another SEC team. That means when they lose later to another team in a similar situation, it happens again. It just snowballs basically all because of the preseason rankings and then the AP keeping that whole preseason ranking vibe going throughout the season. The BCS rankings are also partially based on these polls and those polls are basically based on the preseason rankings, as I was saying. That's the argument for the SEC being overrated from what I understand. Hope I did an ok job at explaining that.

Normally, I understand why the SEC has highly ranked teams throughout the season. They normally have some great teams at the top. This year, not so much and you're seeing the above argument playing out. You have Alabama and Missouri (jury still out on them), but almost everyone else isn't who they were supposed to be. Teams like Florida and Georgia were ranked for far too long and eventually just had to get dropped, because they kept losing.

Texian
10-23-2013, 06:33 PM
ENVY is one of the 7 deadly sins.

pbat488
10-23-2013, 06:53 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_NFL_Draft#Selections_by_conference

63 players from one conference is an NFL Draft record.[11]

Twelve players from Southeastern Conference (SEC) programs were selected in the first round, which tied the record for most first-round selections from a single college conference

when the sheer number of talented players are drafted from a single conference, there is going to be a reduction in quality, which is what we are seeing this year.

however the main difference between the leagues (and the perception of them) is the quality of players. i'm not a big homer about recruit rankings, I think it is much more telling when coaches go out and get the players they prioritize. however these graphs (credit to Corporal Punishment on TexAgs) illustrate why the sec is rated highly.

consensus of most talented recruits signed by big xii schools.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2d9dwkn.gif



consensus of most talented recruits signed by sec schools.
http://i41.tinypic.com/95udl2.gif



in this comparison, the big xii as a whole has less talented (by recruiting services) players going to it, whereas the sec is maintaining it's robust position as the place where the best players in the country go to play.

the poll positions and the mystique of the sec derives from having the best players year in and year out. the nfl draft and recruiting rankings reflect this.

Playoffs
10-23-2013, 07:12 PM
I don't get SEC is overrated from that article. Nor do I think the SEC is overrated.

7 straight championships and overwhelming dominance in the NFL Draft...
When the final name was called on Saturday, the SEC (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130429/sec-nfl-draft/#ixzz2iabBfAUR) had set a modern record with 63 draft picks, more than double that of any other conference. The SEC East alone had more picks (32) than the next-nearest conference, the ACC (31). The SEC's total was the most any league had produced since the Pac-10's 55 in 1983 and represented one-quarter of all players drafted. The league also tied another record with 12 first-round selections. Even if you tossed out the combined seven picks produced by SEC newcomers Texas A&M and Missouri, the league still would've broken the Pac-10's mark.

TexansSeminole
10-23-2013, 09:51 PM
I think there is a difference between overrated and not the best conference. I do think the SEC is usually the top conference. Maybe not this year, but most of the time they are, it's the norm. Even if they aren't this year, it's damn close. But I do understand the argument that that dominance as top conference sometimes is a bit overblown when it comes to the rankings.

There's also a difference between a good team overall and great recruits. Look at Florida under Muschamp. They have NFL talent all over the field, but they just aren't that good of a team. Same could be said about teams outside of the SEC. Florida State has had top recruits for the past 5 or so years, but haven't been that great (this year is still up in the air). The top recruits certainly give you a better shot, but it's not the best way to review the quality of a team overall.

Wolf
10-23-2013, 11:46 PM
And I guess one can take it a step further and see how many busts come from such and such conference ( not say SEC just saying)

htownfan32
10-24-2013, 02:24 AM
That's why I said you would have to look at other conferences and then look at strength of schedule on those out of conference games.

Part of the argument for the SEC being overrated is those SEC conference games. The argument is that the preseason polls overrate SEC teams based on past performance. This carries over into the season when SEC teams play each other, because they end up not dropping far in the rankings when they lose to another SEC team. That means when they lose later to another team in a similar situation, it happens again. It just snowballs basically all because of the preseason rankings and then the AP keeping that whole preseason ranking vibe going throughout the season. The BCS rankings are also partially based on these polls and those polls are basically based on the preseason rankings, as I was saying. That's the argument for the SEC being overrated from what I understand. Hope I did an ok job at explaining that.

Normally, I understand why the SEC has highly ranked teams throughout the season. They normally have some great teams at the top. This year, not so much and you're seeing the above argument playing out. You have Alabama and Missouri (jury still out on them), but almost everyone else isn't who they were supposed to be. Teams like Florida and Georgia were ranked for far too long and eventually just had to get dropped, because they kept losing.

Ehh. There is bias towards the SEC, sure. I'd argue that it's deserved... but, well, let's wait and see how this season shakes out. This is definitely a down year for the SEC though. If the Nat'l game ends up being Oregon vs. Bama and Oregon wins, it'll confirm that this year at least the SEC was overrated. If Bama wins again, though... well, there ya have it. Threepeat speaks for itself. Also waiting on the rest of the SEC's bowl schedule and W-L record.

For the record I'm 90% A&M is going to miss out on the Sugar Bowl. I don't think Auburn loses the two games (probably only lose to Bama, though I'll be cheering for Ole Miss to knock them off) we need them to and I feel like we're going to fall to LSU in Death Valley. A lesser bowl is more likely.

Ole Miss Texan
10-24-2013, 08:54 AM
SEC is down this year but still extremely good. Looking at bowl records during the BCS era vs. out of conference opponents is a good measuring stick. But keep in mind most of the bowls have lower rated/seeded SEC teams facing a higher rated/seeded out of conference school, respective to each conference.

Ie C-USA #1 vs SEC #8 in the Liberty Bowl
Or ACC #2 vs SEC #5 in the Chick-fil-a Bowl
Or Big12 #2 vs SEC #3/4 in the Cotton Bowl

Vinny
10-24-2013, 11:01 AM
A few things I think about the SEC being overrated. Seems every year someone tries to say the sec isn't all that good, but in reality nobody ever compares themselves to number 2. I look at the last 15 years and SEC is the best football in the Nation outside of the NFL....pretty much year in, year out.

It's a game...so no team or no conference will be dominant constantly - there will be a down year here and there.

SEC historically plays defense and values defense...something you don't see across the NCAA's. Watching 71-45 games isn't enjoyable to me.

htownfan32
10-24-2013, 12:26 PM
A few things I think about the SEC being overrated. Seems every year someone tries to say the sec isn't all that good, but in reality nobody ever compares themselves to number 2. I look at the last 15 years and SEC is the best football in the Nation outside of the NFL....pretty much year in, year out.

It's a game...so no team or no conference will be dominant constantly - there will be a down year here and there.

SEC historically plays defense and values defense...something you don't see across the NCAA's. Watching 71-45 games isn't enjoyable to me.

Unfortunately this does not seem to be the case with my school
:kubepalm:

WolverineFan
10-24-2013, 03:16 PM
A few things I think about the SEC being overrated. Seems every year someone tries to say the sec isn't all that good, but in reality nobody ever compares themselves to number 2. I look at the last 15 years and SEC is the best football in the Nation outside of the NFL....pretty much year in, year out.

It's a game...so no team or no conference will be dominant constantly - there will be a down year here and there.

SEC historically plays defense and values defense...something you don't see across the NCAA's. Watching 71-45 games isn't enjoyable to me.

This is a myth. At least nowadays. Maybe years ago it was true, but the past 2-3 years have shown this to just simply not be the truth anymore. The conference is carried by Alabama's stingy defense and there are usually 1-2 teams that have a great defense that year as well. This year it's Alabama and Florida. Last year it was Bama, Florida, and LSU. The year before it was Bama and LSU. The "SEC" doesn't play defense. It's best teams do.

45-41
41-38
44-41
49-42
39-35

These are the scores of a few SEC games this year. Not exactly lighting the world of fire defensively.

Below are the total defense ranks for SEC teams on a national scale.

4
5
21
35
36
44
51
57
58
64
75
88
92
118

They don't look better defensively than any other conference. They just have the hype of Bama and 1-2 other teams each year to perpetuate the myth.

htownfan32
10-24-2013, 03:24 PM
This is a myth. At least nowadays. Maybe years ago it was true, but the past 2-3 years have shown this to just simply not be the truth anymore. The conference is carried by Alabama's stingy defense and there are usually 1-2 teams that have a great defense that year as well. This year it's Alabama and Florida. Last year it was Bama, Florida, and LSU. The year before it was Bama and LSU. The "SEC" doesn't play defense. It's best teams do.

45-41
41-38
44-41
49-42
39-35

These are the scores of a few SEC games this year. Not exactly lighting the world of fire defensively.

Below are the total defense ranks for SEC teams on a national scale.

4
5
21
35
36
44
51
57
58
64
75
88
92
118

They don't look better defensively than any other conference. They just have the hype of Bama and 1-2 other teams each year to perpetuate the myth.

To be fair those are three games featuring A&M, which has a high school defense and a near unstoppable offense. Those games are all bound to be shootouts. I think A&M is the outlier this year.

WolverineFan
10-24-2013, 03:42 PM
To be fair those are three games featuring A&M, which has a high school defense and a near unstoppable offense. Those games are all bound to be shootouts. I think A&M is the outlier this year.

Fair enough, but A&M has only played 4 SEC teams. What about the other 9?

Vanderbilt has the 68th ranked offense in the country.

They scored...

35 on Ole Miss
38 on Austin Peay
25 on South Carolina
24 on UMass
52 on UAB
28 on Missouri
31 on Georgia

Not much distinction there. The only outlier is UAB.

South Carolina has the 28th ranked offense in the country.

They scored...

27 on North Carolina
30 on Georgia
35 on Vanderbilt
28 on UCF
35 on Kentucky
52 on Arkansas
21 on Tennessee

Again, not much distinction. The only outlier is Arkansas.

htownfan32
10-24-2013, 03:49 PM
Fair enough, but A&M has only played 4 SEC teams. What about the other 9?

Vanderbilt has the 68th ranked offense in the country.

They scored...

35 on Ole Miss
38 on Austin Peay
25 on South Carolina
24 on UMass
52 on UAB
28 on Missouri
31 on Georgia

Not much distinction there. The only outlier is UAB.

South Carolina has the 28th ranked offense in the country.

They scored...

27 on North Carolina
30 on Georgia
35 on Vanderbilt
28 on UCF
35 on Kentucky
52 on Arkansas
21 on Tennessee

Again, not much distinction. The only outlier is Arkansas.

Fair enough. I see your point. It confirms the idea that the SEC is down this year and probably overrated too, but I still think it's maybe only for this year. Every team outside of Bama's been going through some pains, except for Auburn which has been a pleasant surprise to its fans, I imagine.
I do agree that the introduction of some explosive offenses along with other factors is changing the "defensive" label of the SEC, though.

WolverineFan
10-24-2013, 03:59 PM
Fair enough. I see your point. It confirms the idea that the SEC is down this year and probably overrated too, but I still think it's maybe only for this year. Every team outside of Bama's been going through some pains, except for Auburn which has been a pleasant surprise to its fans, I imagine.
I do agree that the introduction of some explosive offenses along with other factors is changing the "defensive" label of the SEC, though.

Which is pretty much my point. Changing offensive styles have basically ended the myth of the SEC defense. Alabama, LSU, and Florida remain mostly unaffected because they can recruit elite talent on defense to counter.

I think the SEC is still the best conference (Pac-12 is closing the gap), but this "SEC defense" stuff has irked me for a while. It's no longer true unless the SEC is a 4-team conference of Bama, Florida, LSU, and South Carolina.