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TexansFight
10-20-2013, 07:26 PM
Damn you Rick. Crappy cap planning. Making us let go of key Offensive Lineman like Brisiel and Winston. Newton sucked last year and we didn't do anything to improve the right side of the line. Smith got RAPED by Ed Reed. That SOB is stealing money. We are set to lose even more depth after this season. As angry and upset I am at Kubiak, I am as furious with Rick Smith. He needs to go too.

RTP2110
10-20-2013, 07:31 PM
Dude had to save his job

PapaL
10-20-2013, 07:34 PM
You should go rub one out in the bathroom. You'll feel much better. Carrying that much anger isn't good for a person. Calm down.

SchaubApologist
10-20-2013, 07:41 PM
Who would have thought a PE Coach could not properly manage a cap?

Rick's cap management will hurt us for years after he is gone. Ouch.

Big Lou
10-20-2013, 07:52 PM
Who would have thought a PE Coach could not properly manage a cap?

Rick's cap management will hurt us for years after he is gone. Ouch.

Well I can tell you how to save a couple of bucks, cut Ed Reeds sorry old ass.....

bOODRO87
10-20-2013, 07:54 PM
The season is OVAH! :tiphat:

Surreal McCoy
10-20-2013, 07:57 PM
Damn you Rick. Crappy cap planning. Making us let go of key Offensive Lineman like Brisiel and Winston. Newton sucked last year and we didn't do anything to improve the right side of the line. Smith got RAPED by Ed Reed. That SOB is stealing money. We are set to lose even more depth after this season. As angry and upset I am at Kubiak, I am as furious with Rick Smith. He needs to go too.

It's not his poor cap management that should get him sacked, it's his woeful ability to judge talent. This team is absolutely bereft of talent at positions across the board, especially in the trenches - both sides.

paycheck71
10-20-2013, 08:00 PM
If you think Texans have somehow mismanaged the cap catastrophically, you're insane, or at the very least don't know what you're talking about. I'm sorry about this tone, but I'm tired of these threads popping up.

JamesBill
10-20-2013, 08:00 PM
Well I can tell you how to save a couple of bucks, cut Ed Reeds sorry old ass.....

Next year without Reed and Schaub will be better and we won't be in any sort of cap hell. Sign Tate and you can cut Foster.

That will be 15 million in dead money for 2014 but you have replaced all three players and have no penalty moving forward.

If you think Texans have somehow mismanaged the cap catastrophically, you're insane, or at the very least don't know what you're talking about. I'm sorry about this tone, but I'm tired of these threads popping up.
I agree, but if they don't make some bold cap moves this off season it will have long term ramifications.

Corrosion
10-20-2013, 08:02 PM
Matt Schaub going from Matt Schaub to .... Jamarcus Russell closed the window.

TexansFight
10-20-2013, 08:05 PM
If you think Texans have somehow mismanaged the cap catastrophically, you're insane, or at the very least don't know what you're talking about. I'm sorry about this tone, but I'm tired of these threads popping up.

If Rick has done such a bang up job with the cap, how come we have LOST depth and talent the past few years. It would have been nice to have DeMeco or Brisiel this year. OUR SITUATION IS GOING TO GET WORSE NEXT YEAR.

Rick Smith completely blew the mid round picks this year. He is no sense of urgency and is not proactive enough. Even though he knows nothing about football, I would rather have Daryl Morey in charge of the Texans than Smith.

gafftop
10-20-2013, 08:07 PM
Been saying that for years.

The Pencil Neck
10-20-2013, 08:07 PM
The season is OVAH! :tiphat:

How can you say that? We've got a QB with some promise now and we're in control of our own destiny.

Future's bright.

Norg
10-20-2013, 08:26 PM
your right signing matt schaub and ed reed and Cushing ...not knocking that but he wont be on the field

those 3 will hurt his next year since that's like money down the drain

paycheck71
10-20-2013, 08:29 PM
your right signing matt schaub and ed reed and Cushing ...not knocking that but he wont be on the field

those 3 will hurt his next year since that's like money down the drain

Both Schaub and Reed are cuttable without major cap implications after this season. I'm not a huge fan of the Reed signing, but I'm sure that's something coaches wanted.

If you're knocking the Cushing signing, I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Norg
10-20-2013, 08:34 PM
Both Schaub and Reed are cuttable without major cap implications after this season. I'm not a huge fan of the Reed signing, but I'm sure that's something coaches wanted.

If you're knocking the Cushing signing, I'm not sure how to respond to that.


"NOT knocking" jus saying that's now a sad thing wasted money and talent

JamesBill
10-20-2013, 08:41 PM
Both Schaub and Reed are cuttable without major cap implications after this season. I'm not a huge fan of the Reed signing, but I'm sure that's something coaches wanted.


You can cut Reed, jonathan joseph, and Manning with basically no penalty.

Schaub will only take up 3.5 million in cap space if you cut him in 2014 and 7 million in 2015. The cap situation is fine if you draft well.

paycheck71
10-20-2013, 08:55 PM
You can cut Reed, jonathan joseph, and Manning with basically no penalty.

Schaub will only take up 3.5 million in cap space if you cut him in 2014 and 7 million in 2015. The cap situation is fine if you draft well.

I may have misunderstood you, but I think you're incorrect about Schaub. He has no guaranteed money beyond this year other than the prorated bonus ($3.5MM in both 2014, 2015, and 2016). So, if they cut him after this season, there is a $10.5MM dead money cap hit that can be spread over 2 years. If they take the full hit in 2014, they still SAVE $4MM over keeping Schaub on the roster

Rey
10-20-2013, 09:04 PM
I hope case plays well enough to where we don't need a qb in round 1 next year. That would be huge as far as keeping the window open. We need OL, LB's corners...safeties...

If case can build on what he did today that'd be huge for this franchise.

dream_team
10-20-2013, 09:07 PM
Damn you Rick. Crappy cap planning. Making us let go of key Offensive Lineman like Brisiel and Winston. Newton sucked last year and we didn't do anything to improve the right side of the line. Smith got RAPED by Ed Reed. That SOB is stealing money. We are set to lose even more depth after this season. As angry and upset I am at Kubiak, I am as furious with Rick Smith. He needs to go too.

Calm down... Rick is doing a fine job I think. In this day of the NFL, all of the good teams will have to make compromises due to the cap. Read the message boards from a few years ago, the fans were not ecstatic with Eric Winston. Even though he was a good run blocker, he was exposed alot in pass pro. Briesel was over paid to go to Oakland IMO, so I'm glad we didn't try to match his contract. Plus, Brooks has some promise at RG. Lets also not forget, Smith did try to fix the RT issue in the offseason. He drafted Williams and Quesenbery... unfortunately, we lose them both to injury.

dream_team
10-20-2013, 09:10 PM
It's not his poor cap management that should get him sacked, it's his woeful ability to judge talent. This team is absolutely bereft of talent at positions across the board, especially in the trenches - both sides.

I actually think this is his strength... he hits on talent more than he misses.

Big Lou
10-20-2013, 09:14 PM
Matt Schaub going from Matt Schaub to .... Jamarcus Russell closed the window.

Russell had a strong arm though......

Big Lou
10-20-2013, 09:15 PM
I hope case plays well enough to where we don't need a qb in round 1 next year. That would be huge as far as keeping the window open. We need OL, LB's corners...safeties...

If case can build on what he did today that'd be huge for this franchise.

I like Case, but I just wonder how will do once teams have tape on him.....

Redcat
10-20-2013, 09:20 PM
I hope case plays well enough to where we don't need a qb in round 1 next year. That would be huge as far as keeping the window open. We need OL, LB's corners...safeties...

If case can build on what he did today that'd be huge for this franchise.

Agree completely! There's a lot of QB depth in this draft but there are none that are just automatic franchise-type starters. The Texans could pick up a good QB in the 2nd or 3rd round.

On the other hand, there are some real stud OT's coming out. Bookending Duane Brown with Jake Matthews or Taylor Lewan would go a long way to solving the offensive line issues.

The Texans probably do need to take a QB in this draft but it shouldn't be their top priority.

JamesBill
10-20-2013, 09:21 PM
I actually think this is his strength... he hits on talent more than he misses.

Unless Reed and Whitney get better, or our O-Line picks start to work out, Surreal McCoy has a great point about talent on both lines.

JamesBill
10-20-2013, 09:22 PM
I may have misunderstood you, but I think you're incorrect about Schaub. He has no guaranteed money beyond this year other than the prorated bonus ($3.5MM in both 2014, 2015, and 2016). So, if they cut him after this season, there is a $10.5MM dead money cap hit that can be spread over 2 years. If they take the full hit in 2014, they still SAVE $4MM over keeping Schaub on the roster

Must have been my wording. Our numbers agree.

MEGA SWATT
10-20-2013, 09:25 PM
I hope case plays well enough to where we don't need a qb in round 1 next year. That would be huge as far as keeping the window open. We need OL, LB's corners...safeties...

If case can build on what he did today that'd be huge for this franchise.

:bravo:

YeaLikeRightNow
10-20-2013, 09:25 PM
I have never really understood all these recent contract extensions, well...maybe for Cushing, but investing in football players for the future is basically the same as playing the stock market or....eeeek...gambling?

gafftop
10-20-2013, 09:26 PM
Wow they deleted the post where everyone was praising Rick Smith. Big brother lives

Hervoyel
10-20-2013, 09:30 PM
The Ed Reed move just blew up in our faces. Hell, I'm wondering at this point why he's still even drawing a paycheck here at all. It seems like someone with the Texans should just go down to the locker room before practice next week and tell Ed to just go on home. He's not earning his money and at this point all he does is serve as a constant reminder of a) How far down he's really gone and b) How stupid the Houston Texans were for giving him money they could have spent on Glover Quinn.

Just send him home. Hell, keep paying him for the rest of the year if you want. Who really gives a ****? He's useless and needs to go.

Playoffs
10-20-2013, 09:35 PM
Wow they deleted the post where everyone was praising Rick Smith. Big brother lives
No "they" didn't: http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99084

dalemurphy
10-20-2013, 09:37 PM
your right signing matt schaub and ed reed and Cushing ...not knocking that but he wont be on the field

those 3 will hurt his next year since that's like money down the drain

Let it play out. The Cushing signing is tough. I'm not sure how the Texans could do anything but lock up Cushing. If Cushing doesn't get locked up, then they are stuck in a situation where either Watt or Cushing are likely to walk because we can only use the franchise tag on one. Watt's market value is out of the world, so the only way to get a reasonable deal done with Watt is to have the tag available for back to back years and strong arm him into a deal (still a monster deal but not what he could get in the open market). So, for that to happen, we need to take care of the guys we want here in two years now- and do it so that we have the cap space/room to franchise tag him (or that threat is meaningless).

Reed's deal is easy to get out from and it's still early to say it was a mistake. Though, I'm not loving it right now! Schaub's deal, I think, is also not difficult to get out from- either after this year or next.

Also, we are about to be free and clear from Antonio Smith's big number, Manning's, and OD's... The cap situation is pretty darn good, I think. We have no dead money in front of us, heading into next year. We should have another 9 or 10 picks and have a lot of talent and youth. And, if Keenum ends up as "the guy", we have him dirt cheap for a couple years- which creates cap opportunities and a strong bargaining position.

Hervoyel
10-20-2013, 09:59 PM
Let it play out. The Cushing signing is tough. I'm not sure how the Texans could do anything but lock up Cushing. If Cushing doesn't get locked up, then they are stuck in a situation where either Watt or Cushing are likely to walk because we can only use the franchise tag on one. Watt's market value is out of the world, so the only way to get a reasonable deal done with Watt is to have the tag available for back to back years and strong arm him into a deal (still a monster deal but not what he could get in the open market). So, for that to happen, we need to take care of the guys we want here in two years now- and do it so that we have the cap space/room to franchise tag him (or that threat is meaningless).

Reed's deal is easy to get out from and it's still early to say it was a mistake. Though, I'm not loving it right now! Schaub's deal, I think, is also not difficult to get out from- either after this year or next.

Also, we are about to be free and clear from Antonio Smith's big number, Manning's, and OD's... The cap situation is pretty darn good, I think. We have no dead money in front of us, heading into next year. We should have another 9 or 10 picks and have a lot of talent and youth. And, if Keenum ends up as "the guy", we have him dirt cheap for a couple years- which creates cap opportunities and a strong bargaining position.

Bolded is the only thing I disagree with you on. I was saying that in the first couple of weeks of the season but not anymore. We have 9 games remaining in 2013 and Ed Reed is a non-factor. It didn't work out. It's time to send him home and get a real safety.

Bulls on Parade
10-20-2013, 10:10 PM
Can we restructure Brian Cushing's contract this off-season? I suspect we will release Schaub after June 1 to save some cap space. Too early to speculate.

hradhak
10-20-2013, 10:13 PM
Bolded is the only thing I disagree with you on. I was saying that in the first couple of weeks of the season but not anymore. We have 9 games remaining in 2013 and Ed Reed is a non-factor. It didn't work out. It's time to send him home and get a real safety.

I agree he's worthless. I think our problem maybe that we just need bodies at the spot. I think Keo should be getting more reps. He has been playing better than I expected.

Texian
10-20-2013, 10:41 PM
If you think Texans have somehow mismanaged the cap catastrophically, you're insane, or at the very least don't know what you're talking about. I'm sorry about this tone, but I'm tired of these threads popping up.

Sorry Paycheck, in this case I do know what I'm talking about. The Texans have done a very poor job of managing the salary cap since 2010. see below

Calm down... Rick is doing a fine job I think. In this day of the NFL, all of the good teams will have to make compromises due to the cap.

Rick is doing what he's told to do. Rick is to Gary what Scott Pioli was to Bill Belichick. The Texans have mortgaged the future every year since 2010. Each year since 2010 if the Texans haven't been over the cap to start the new year they don't have enough cap space to fill out the roster. Every year they restructure contracts to borrow money from future years to get 53 players under contract and 8 players signed to the practice squad.

In essence, the Texans have 8-10 players who make minimums ($500K-$900K per yr) instead of players with a higher value of $2-$4 million a year because they've borrowed that money from future years to get under the cap every year since 2010. Just so you know the Texans will be in the same position in 2014 they've been in the last 4 years. 2015 is worse. Currently the Texans will start 2014 approx. $8 mil under the cap. They will need $10-$12 to meet 2014 obligations. In contrast the Colts will start 2014 approx $40-$42 MILLION under the cap.

Every year it's the same scramble to find rookie/vet minimums that fit under the contract and the bottom of the roster is one of the weaker in the league. When you can only afford $500K per year player instead of $2-$4 million a year player you get the results you get. It will only get worse dur to all the injuries.

When Mario Williams became a free agent his $18 million salary came off the books YET the Texans started the new year only $3 million under the cap.

In order to sign Arian Foster to a long term contract at $8 mil a year the Texans had to release Winston, Lawrence, Lienart, Jones and trade Ryans. At the time Foster was a RFA and could've been tendered at $2 mil for the season saving $6 million. Because the Texans didn't have cap space they didn't have the cap space to sign Glover Quin and thought they could do better with Ed Reed.....I could go on and on and on......Here is a list of players that have been let go because of NO salary cap and have not been replaced by equal or better talent and that's BAD Salary Cap management..

Winston, Brisel, Dreessen, Ryans, Lawrence, Leach, Jones, Barwin, Casey, Quin and Mario.

The Texans need to clean house and have a fire sale in order for this team to be in a position to get better every year instead of band aids to maintain the status go or the all to familiar couple of steps backwards.

paycheck71
10-20-2013, 10:56 PM
Sorry Paycheck, in this case I do know what I'm talking about. The Texans have done a very poor job of managing the salary cap since 2010. see below



Rick is doing what he's told to do. Rick is to Gary what Scott Pioli was to Bill Belichick. The Texans have mortgaged the future every year since 2010. Each year since 2010 if the Texans haven't been over the cap to start the new year they don't have enough cap space to fill out the roster. Every year they restructure contracts to borrow money from future years to get 53 players under contract and 8 players signed to the practice squad.

In essence, the Texans have 8-10 players who make minimums ($500K-$900K per yr) instead of players with a higher value of $2-$4 million a year because they've borrowed that money from future years to get under the cap every year since 2010. Just so you know the Texans will be in the same position in 2014 they've been in the last 4 years. 2015 is worse. Currently the Texans will start 2014 approx. $8 mil under the cap. They will need $10-$12 to meet 2014 obligations. In contrast the Colts will start 2014 approx $40-$42 MILLION under the cap.

Every year it's the same scramble to find rookie/vet minimums that fit under the contract and the bottom of the roster is one of the weaker in the league. When you can only afford $500K per year player instead of $2-$4 million a year player you get the results you get. It will only get worse dur to all the injuries.

When Mario Williams became a free agent his $18 million salary came off the books YET the Texans started the new year only $3 million under the cap.

In order to sign Arian Foster to a long term contract at $8 mil a year the Texans had to release Winston, Lawrence, Lienart, Jones and trade Ryans. At the time Foster was a RFA and could've been tendered at $2 mil for the season saving $6 million. Because the Texans didn't have cap space they didn't have the cap space to sign Glover Quin and thought they could do better with Ed Reed.....I could go on and on and on......Here is a list of players that have been let go because of NO salary cap and have not been replaced by equal or better talent and that's BAD Salary Cap management..

Winston, Brisel, Dreessen, Ryans, Lawrence, Leach, Jones, Barwin, Casey, Quin and Mario.

The Texans need to clean house and have a fire sale in order for this team to be in a position to get better every year instead of band aids to maintain the status go or the all to familiar couple of steps backwards.

Why would you EVER want to start every season $42MM under the cap? You're not making much sense. Clearly, the Texans aren't perfect, but in the recent past only the Ravens have come close to being perfect in that department, IMO, but that was before they gave Flacco $100MM contract.

SchaubApologist
10-20-2013, 11:02 PM
Can we restructure Brian Cushing's contract this off-season? I suspect we will release Schaub after June 1 to save some cap space. Too early to speculate.

that's putting a band aid on a sinking ship.

what a terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible contract.

:lol:

SchaubApologist
10-20-2013, 11:03 PM
Why would you EVER want to start every season $42MM under the cap? You're not making much sense. Clearly, the Texans aren't perfect, but in the recent past only the Ravens have come close to being perfect in that department, IMO, but that was before they gave Flacco $100MM contract.

uhhh because you want enough money for draft obligations and then most importantly Free Agency.

Not all teams have the compulsive desire to lock up anybody/everybody as the Texans do.

Corrosion
10-20-2013, 11:04 PM
Russell had a strong arm though......

point is .... complete ineptitude.

SchaubApologist
10-20-2013, 11:05 PM
If you think Texans have somehow mismanaged the cap catastrophically, you're insane, or at the very least don't know what you're talking about. I'm sorry about this tone, but I'm tired of these threads popping up.

Can you back up your claim with evidence?

Right now your comment looks like fanboy drivel.

JamesBill
10-20-2013, 11:06 PM
Currently the Texans will start 2014 approx. $8 mil under the cap. They will need $10-$12 to meet 2014 obligations.

In contrast the Colts will start 2014 approx $40-$42 MILLION under the cap.


Because the Texans didn't have cap space they didn't have the cap space to sign Glover Quin and thought they could do better with Ed Reed.....I could go on and on and on......

4 million isn't a disparity worth mentioning. Most fans can name 20 million in cuts easily

Comparing the Texans to the Colts is worthless. The Colts bit the bullet and had nearly 40 million in dead money after their fire sale.

GC's contract was 1 million more guaranteed money for a 2 year longer contract and 1 million less for the 2013 cap hit. It was a wiff of talent evaluation, not a cap casualty.

paycheck71
10-20-2013, 11:07 PM
uhhh because you want enough money for draft obligations and then most importantly Free Agency.

Not all teams have the compulsive desire to lock up anybody/everybody as the Texans do.

Uhhhh... If you're $42MM under the cap, it means you think you're not a very deep team. The fact the the Texans thing they're a deep team may mean that they're not very good in talent evaluation (if you disagree with the depth), but it doesn't have much to do with cap management. Their contracts have been structured in a way that allows them a way out without major issues.

If you're really criticizing the Cushing signing, I'm not sure to hot respond to that.

Edit: Plus the Colts have a QB on his rookie contract. Let's see what happens in 2 years.

Texian
10-20-2013, 11:07 PM
Why would you EVER want to start every season $42MM under the cap? You're not making much sense. Clearly, the Texans aren't perfect, but in the recent past only the Ravens have come close to being perfect in that department, IMO, but that was before they gave Flacco $100MM contract.

Are you not watching SNF? The fact that the Colts have $40 mil to start 2014 not scare you? The Colts do have 24 contracts to replace. I would rather have $40 mil to replace 24 contracts than $8 million to replace 15 contracts like the Texans. That's almost $2 mil per player vs $500k per player. Even after signing Flacco to a $100 mil contract the Ravens were still able to sign 3 Pro Bowl FAs in the off season and just recently have traded for a 1st RD OT.

SchaubApologist
10-20-2013, 11:07 PM
Both Schaub and Reed are cuttable without major cap implications after this season. I'm not a huge fan of the Reed signing, but I'm sure that's something coaches wanted.

If you're knocking the Cushing signing, I'm not sure how to respond to that.

how can we cut schaub with no cap implications?!?!?!?!???

in '14 it's a 3mil hit, and '15 it's a whopping 7.5mil cap hit...

2015 is pretty major considering the cap is only 120ish.

SchaubApologist
10-20-2013, 11:08 PM
Uhhhh... If you're $42MM under the cap, it means you think you're not a very deep team. The fact the the Texans thing they're a deep team may mean that they're not very good in talent evaluation (if you disagree with the depth), but it doesn't have much to do with cap management. Their contracts have been structured in a way that allows them a way out without major issues.

If you're really criticizing the Cushing signing, I'm not sure to hot respond to that.

If you're not criticizing the Cushing extension, I'm not sure how to respond to that.

SchaubApologist
10-20-2013, 11:09 PM
Are you not watching SNF? The fact that the Colts have $40 mil to start 2014 not scare you? The Colts do have 24 contracts to replace. I would rather have $40 mil to replace 24 contracts than $8 million to replace 15 contracts like the Texans. Even after signing Flacco to a $100 mil contract the Ravens were still able to sign 3 Pro Bowl FAs in the off season and just recently have traded for a 1st RD OT.

I completely agree. This guy has no concept of cap management in the NFL. Just let him rot away in his moldy 1 bedroom mobile home.

JamesBill
10-20-2013, 11:10 PM
how can we cut schaub with no cap implications?!?!?!?!???

in '14 it's a 3mil hit, and '15 it's a whopping 7.5mil cap hit...

2015 is pretty major considering the cap is only 120ish.

10.5 million is a large hit but if you take into consideration his replacement will make significantly less, it doesn't mean much. A first round draft pick, plus Schaubs dead money, would be millions less than having Schaub on the roster in 2014 and 2015.

I completely agree. This guy has no concept of cap management in the NFL. Just let him rot away in his moldy 1 bedroom mobile home.

Now I regret responding to you. You haven't brought much insight and are slinging personal insults.

SchaubApologist
10-20-2013, 11:11 PM
10.5 million is a large hit but if you take into consideration his replacement will make significantly less, it doesn't mean much. A first round draft pick, plus Schaubs dead money, would be millions less than having Schaub on the roster in 2014 and 2015.

haha. 10.5 in dead money is a huge deal no matter how you spin it.

steelbtexan
10-20-2013, 11:12 PM
Sorry Paycheck, in this case I do know what I'm talking about. The Texans have done a very poor job of managing the salary cap since 2010. see below



Rick is doing what he's told to do. Rick is to Gary what Scott Pioli was to Bill Belichick. The Texans have mortgaged the future every year since 2010. Each year since 2010 if the Texans haven't been over the cap to start the new year they don't have enough cap space to fill out the roster. Every year they restructure contracts to borrow money from future years to get 53 players under contract and 8 players signed to the practice squad.

In essence, the Texans have 8-10 players who make minimums ($500K-$900K per yr) instead of players with a higher value of $2-$4 million a year because they've borrowed that money from future years to get under the cap every year since 2010. Just so you know the Texans will be in the same position in 2014 they've been in the last 4 years. 2015 is worse. Currently the Texans will start 2014 approx. $8 mil under the cap. They will need $10-$12 to meet 2014 obligations. In contrast the Colts will start 2014 approx $40-$42 MILLION under the cap.

Every year it's the same scramble to find rookie/vet minimums that fit under the contract and the bottom of the roster is one of the weaker in the league. When you can only afford $500K per year player instead of $2-$4 million a year player you get the results you get. It will only get worse dur to all the injuries.

When Mario Williams became a free agent his $18 million salary came off the books YET the Texans started the new year only $3 million under the cap.

In order to sign Arian Foster to a long term contract at $8 mil a year the Texans had to release Winston, Lawrence, Lienart, Jones and trade Ryans. At the time Foster was a RFA and could've been tendered at $2 mil for the season saving $6 million. Because the Texans didn't have cap space they didn't have the cap space to sign Glover Quin and thought they could do better with Ed Reed.....I could go on and on and on......Here is a list of players that have been let go because of NO salary cap and have not been replaced by equal or better talent and that's BAD Salary Cap management..

Winston, Brisel, Dreessen, Ryans, Lawrence, Leach, Jones, Barwin, Casey, Quin and Mario.

The Texans need to clean house and have a fire sale in order for this team to be in a position to get better every year instead of band aids to maintain the status go or the all to familiar couple of steps backwards.

MSR

This is what I've been saying has been the root of the problem. With that said, a great draft which would include 5 major contributors in the OL/DL/DB's would help solve alot of those problems. History says we shouldn't expect this out of a Rick Smith draft class.

What's sad is, even if Case is the answer at QB at a very low cap number, the Texans will still have cap problems. The reason that Gary mortgaged the future is after he decided to sit out the 2010 offseason (Elective surgery, missed the combine, after a glorius 9-7 2009 season) and the team fell on its face. He had to mortgage the future to save his job. This org has been chasing its collective tail since then.

This is as plain as day and I dont understand why some very intelligent posters on this MB cant see the problem.

paycheck71
10-20-2013, 11:12 PM
how can we cut schaub with no cap implications?!?!?!?!???

in '14 it's a 3mil hit, and '15 it's a whopping 7.5mil cap hit...

2015 is pretty major considering the cap is only 120ish.

If they cut him after this year, they take a $10.5MM dead money cap hit, which is also a $4MM cap savings over keeping him. They gain $4MM in cap room by cutting him. How's that a major cap implication?

Texian
10-20-2013, 11:12 PM
Uhhhh... If you're $42MM under the cap, it means you think you're not a very deep team. The fact the the Texans thing they're a deep team may mean that they're not very good in talent evaluation (if you disagree with the depth), but it doesn't have much to do with cap management. Their contracts have been structured in a way that allows them a way out without major issues.

If you're really criticizing the Cushing signing, I'm not sure to hot respond to that.

Edit: Plus the Colts have a QB on his rookie contract. Let's see what happens in 2 years.

Would you rather have $42 mil for 24 contracts COLTS ($1.75 mil per player ) or $8 mil for 15 contracts TEXANS ($500K per player)? This is not a trick question. If you think 2013 is BAD WAIT until 2014. And 2015 is worse.

JamesBill
10-20-2013, 11:13 PM
haha. 10.5 in dead money is a huge deal no matter how you spin it.

In what way? You are spending LESS money on the QB position. Allowing you to spend MORE money in other places.

SchaubApologist
10-20-2013, 11:14 PM
10.5 million is a large hit but if you take into consideration his replacement will make significantly less, it doesn't mean much. A first round draft pick, plus Schaubs dead money, would be millions less than having Schaub on the roster in 2014 and 2015.



Now I regret responding to you. You haven't brought much insight and are slinging personal insults.

what are you contributing?

you don't think i know that a low cost QB will help even out schaub's dead money?

you are completely missing the big picture. with schaub's dead money, we lose the time in which our "low cost qb" is an actual "low cost qb".

did you think of that? no, probably not.

paycheck71
10-20-2013, 11:15 PM
I completely agree. This guy has no concept of cap management in the NFL. Just let him rot away in his moldy 1 bedroom mobile home.

Ahhh, I see. I have nothing else to say to you.

dalemurphy
10-20-2013, 11:15 PM
haha. 10.5 in dead money is a huge deal no matter how you spin it.

Not really. If you discovered his replacement (and it's an upgrade) at a price that does not impact the cap at all, then the team can take that cap hit and make the transition without having to alter its cap/personnel plans. Sure it would be better to not have that dead money. However, they planned for 2014 with Schaub's salary on the books. So, it is an easy and clean transition, if it is done.

SchaubApologist
10-20-2013, 11:17 PM
Not really. If you discovered his replacement (and it's an upgrade) at a price that does not impact the cap at all, then the team can take that cap hit and make the transition without having to alter its cap/personnel plans. Sure it would be better to not have that dead money. However, they planned for 2014 with Schaub's salary on the books. So, it is an easy and clean transition, if it is done.

if you look at the texans books, our "planning" has heavily depended on borrowing against future cap space by restructuring deals and signing back loaded contracts. if you think '14's cap looks bleak, take a look at '15. it gets really ugly.

JamesBill
10-20-2013, 11:18 PM
Would you rather have $42 mil for 24 contracts COLTS ($1.75 mil per player ) or $8 mil for 15 contracts TEXANS ($500K per player)? This is not a trick question. If you think 2013 is BAD WAIT until 2014. And 2015 is worse.

Stop comparing to the Colts to make the Texans look bad. They had nearly 40 million in dead money after a fire sale. It is as useful to comparing the Texans to the Cowboys to make them look good.

dalemurphy
10-20-2013, 11:18 PM
what are you contributing?

you don't think i know that a low cost QB will help even out schaub's dead money?

you are completely missing the big picture. with schaub's dead money, we lose the time in which our "low cost qb" is an actual "low cost qb".

did you think of that? no, probably not.

I bet the fans are livid in Seattle- demanding to get rid of the Seahawk front office for spending all that money on Matt Flynn, when they could have had the extra money, trusting that Russell Wilson would immediately be the guy. Yeah, I bet they are outraged about the awful cap management!!

paycheck71
10-20-2013, 11:20 PM
Would you rather have $42 mil for 24 contracts COLTS ($1.75 mil per player ) or $8 mil for 15 contracts TEXANS ($500K per player)? This is not a trick question. If you think 2013 is BAD WAIT until 2014. And 2015 is worse.

Of course I would rather have more money to spend. But that's such a simplified view. You have to look at how both teams got here. The Colts blew up the team, tanked a season, and got lucky with a potentially franchise QB, who's getting paid peanuts. I don't think it's fair to compare the Texans to the Colts at this point.

I think it's fair to criticize the Texans talent evaluation, as I mentioned in my previous post, but not cap management. There are no impending dead money disasters IMO, and it's always easier to criticize Cushing contract after tonight. But what if he hadn't gotten injured and walked after the season? He's one of the best players on our D, IMO you had to extend him.

SchaubApologist
10-20-2013, 11:21 PM
I bet the fans are livid in Seattle- demanding to get rid of the Seahawk front office for spending all that money on Matt Flynn, when they could have had the extra money, trusting that Russell Wilson would immediately be the guy. Yeah, I bet they are outraged about the awful cap management!!

bad example. seahawks traded matt flynn & his contract to oakland. thus, it had zero impact on seattle's future dealings.

try again.

dalemurphy
10-20-2013, 11:22 PM
if you look at the texans books, our "planning" has heavily depended on borrowing against future cap space by restructuring deals and signing back loaded contracts. if you think '14's cap looks bleak, take a look at '15. it gets really ugly.

That is simply not true. The Texans cap philosophy is the opposite. They want to keep the books clean and not sacrifice one year for another. Looking forward, the cap is quite healthy. Some contracts are back-loaded, of course. But that is empowering for the Texans, because they can cut the player at the end of a contract and save themselves from the huge salary, if they choose, without taking on any substantial dead money. For instance, Danieal Manning and OD will both be cut next year to save about $10 million in cap unless they agree to restructure.

Also, all teams are forecasting a significant increase in the cap number by 2015.

paycheck71
10-20-2013, 11:23 PM
I completely agree. This guy has no concept of cap management in the NFL. Just let him rot away in his moldy 1 bedroom mobile home.

Neg rep me? Real classy...

JamesBill
10-20-2013, 11:24 PM
what are you contributing?

you don't think i know that a low cost QB will help even out schaub's dead money?

you are completely missing the big picture. with schaub's dead money, we lose the time in which our "low cost qb" is an actual "low cost qb".

did you think of that? no, probably not.

Actually first round draft picks have 5 years of cheap labor (with the 5th year club option) so Schaub's 7 million would only impact one of those years.

9 million is the average salary for an NFL quarterback, how cheap are you looking to get. You are the one saying it is a disaster, and the position you are focusing on could be an advantage soon.

dalemurphy
10-20-2013, 11:24 PM
bad example. seahawks traded matt flynn & his contract to oakland. thus, it had zero impact on seattle's future dealings.

try again.

Wrong. You don't know what you are talking about. When a player is traded, the prorated salary bonus all hits the team trading him that season. From a cap standpoint, it is identical to cutting a player.

paycheck71
10-20-2013, 11:24 PM
That is simply not true. The Texans cap philosophy is the opposite. They want to keep the books clean and not sacrifice one year for another. Looking forward, the cap is quite healthy. Some contracts are back-loaded, of course. But that is empowering for the Texans, because they can cut the player at the end of a contract and save themselves from the huge salary, if they choose, without taking on any substantial dead money. For instance, Danieal Manning and OD will both be cut next year to save about $10 million in cap unless they agree to restructure.

Also, all teams are forecasting a significant increase in the cap number by 2015.

Great post! MSR

Texian
10-20-2013, 11:25 PM
In what way? You are spending LESS money on the QB position. Allowing you to spend MORE money in other places.

The one position where you want to spend money is QB. Every team covets and would love to have a legitimate $20 million a year QB. This cutting corners thinking is exactly what has gotten the Texans in the current mess they're in. Too many band aids.

Stop comparing to the Colts to make the Texans look bad. They had nearly 40 million in dead money after a fire sale. It is as useful to comparing the Texans to the Cowboys to make them look good.

Are you watching SNF? It is what it is and The Texans need to do exactly the same thing, have fire sale and clean house. If they don't it won't be more of the same things will actually get worse. If you can't get better then you're getting worse and that's what the Texans have been doing for the last several years.

JamesBill
10-20-2013, 11:30 PM
The one position where you want to spend money is QB. Every team covets and would love to have a legitimate $20 million a year QB. This cutting corners thinking is exactly what has gotten the Texans in the current mess they're in. Too many band aids.



Are you watching SNF? It is what it is and The Texans need to do exactly the same thing, have fire sale and clean house. If they don't it won't be more of the same things will actually get worse. If you can't get better then you're getting worse and that's what the Texans have been doing for the last several years.

They want to have a good QB, they don't want to spend more money getting one. Playoff teams spent 8.4 million on their QB, all the other teams spent 1.5 million more. At this point it would be cutting Schaub for performance, not cost cutting.


Yes I am watching football. The guy making peanuts is outplaying the guy who just got another 42 million guaranteed. It kinda goes opposite of your point.

gafftop
10-20-2013, 11:32 PM
Below was posted in 04/2011.

I said then it would be the biggest decision made up to that point in Texans history. The trade would have cleared money that year to tie up some players we lost the next year. It was a no brainer to me.

04-20-2011 #136
gafftop
Hall of Fame


Join Date: Apr 2006
Age: 55
Posts: 1,636
Rep Power: 3082 gafftop is a quality contributor and well respectedgafftop is a quality contributor and well respectedgafftop is a quality contributor and well respectedgafftop is a quality contributor and well respectedgafftop is a quality contributor and well respectedgafftop is a quality contributor and well respectedgafftop is a quality contributor and well respectedgafftop is a quality contributor and well respectedgafftop is a quality contributor and well respectedgafftop is a quality contributor and well respectedgafftop is a quality contributor and well respected Default Re: Would you trade Mario if it meant........

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post
If we were to trade Mario it would happen after this draft and when the new CBA is agreed to. Then it would involve 2012 draft picks and/or current players. If we really want a prospect from this years draft, say Peterson or Miller or whoever, the stars are going to have to align for THAT specific team to be willing to give up their Top 5-10 draft pick (Peterson) plus maybe a 2012 pick PLUS see the need for MArio to be on their team and be willing to give him that big contract your talking about.

I have more faith that Wade Phillips can get Mario to play great in this defense than I do Peterson or Miller coming in as a rookie and being better. Mario isn't going anywhere.

I tend to agree with you. It makes me sick that we will get nothing or worse we sign Mario to another big contract. I would be OK with a proven player and a high draft choice next year. That is better than nothing. The Patriots get incrementally better with each trade. It may not be a blockbuster trade but they do get better and younger. The overall talent level of the team is always getting better, plus they know talent that allows them to continually get better. The Texans on the other hand tend to make trades that makes no difference or more often makes them worse. Have they ever made a trade that improved the team? I know Schaub, but we did not give up an actual player. Have we ever traded a player and received a draft choice or player? i umderstand we don't have a lot to trade. Mario is about the only one that MAY have value that I would trade. Just rambling now not looking forward to this coming season

paycheck71
10-20-2013, 11:33 PM
Here's a link to some Cushing contract details for those of you really worried.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/23509370/texans-cost-for-cushing-extension-could-be-as-low-as-1-year-122m

Texian
10-20-2013, 11:39 PM
That is simply not true. The Texans cap philosophy is the opposite. They want to keep the books clean and not sacrifice one year for another. Looking forward, the cap is quite healthy. Some contracts are back-loaded, of course. But that is empowering for the Texans, because they can cut the player at the end of a contract and save themselves from the huge salary, if they choose, without taking on any substantial dead money. For instance, Danieal Manning and OD will both be cut next year to save about $10 million in cap unless they agree to restructure.

Also, all teams are forecasting a significant increase in the cap number by 2015.

Here is the truth, since 2010 the Texans have for every year mortgaged the future. Every year the Texans have restructured contracts to get under the cap. The books are NOT clean. Each new league year the Texans begin with not enough salary cap space to meet their bare minimum obligations. That's why they have to borrow every year from future years by restructuring contracts. This is the reason the Texans have become what they have today.

In essence the Texans have borrowed every year for 4 years they have compromised the salary cap. Instead of having 100% of the salary cap to work with they only have 85%-90% because they've to pay back what they borrowed. That's why every year they have only been able to sign vets worthy of league minimums instead of potential pro bowl players or players good enough to make more than league minimums. Too many band aids.

Your back loading argument would make sense if they weren't restructuring contracts every year but they are. Case in point, Mario's backloaded contract paid him $18 million in 2011. Yet when his $18 million came off the books in 2012 the Texans started the 2012 new year only $3 million under the cap.

dalemurphy
10-20-2013, 11:40 PM
They want to have a good QB, they don't want to spend more money getting one. Playoff teams spent 8.4 million on their QB, all the other teams spent 1.5 million more. At this point it would be cutting Schaub for performance, not cost cutting.


Yes I am watching football. The guy making peanuts is outplaying the guy who just got another 42 million guaranteed. It kinda goes opposite of your point.

It seems to me that a few arguments are being muddled together, which confuse the reaility of the Texans' situation.

1st issue: was the Schaub re-signing a mistake? - Barring some unexpected twists and turns to this season, I think everyone will agree that it was, including the Texans' organization when they cut him loose in the off-season.

2nd Issue: was the contract a bad one? - I don't think so. It is a deal that looks good when compared to the deals other successful organizations handed out in similar situations (Seattle- Flynn, SF- A.Smith).

3rd issue: What does the Schaub contract do to the cap moving forward - Looking at the cap situation and what happened in Seattle and SF in similar situations, I don't think the contract puts the Texans in a difficult position, nor sets them back at all. The one exception is that it makes it unlikely that the Texans would jump high into the 1st round or spend big money on a free agent QB this coming year. Apart from that, the Texans can be clear from the contract without having to make difficult off-season cuts and without mortgaging anything in the future years.

Goatcheese
10-20-2013, 11:41 PM
There's not a lot that could have been done differently. Everyone expected the cap to go up substantially, but the NFL pulled some wonkass math out on everyone with buried CBA details and it didn't budge.

The only big thing I would have changed was not giving Foster the huge pay day(I said this at the time, not revisionist history). He was a RFA and we had Tate as insurance. Now we have a 4 YPC back making elite money when we could have kept the O-Line intact.

Texian
10-20-2013, 11:44 PM
They want to have a good QB, they don't want to spend more money getting one. Playoff teams spent 8.4 million on their QB, all the other teams spent 1.5 million more. At this point it would be cutting Schaub for performance, not cost cutting.


Yes I am watching football. The guy making peanuts is outplaying the guy who just got another 42 million guaranteed. It kinda goes opposite of your point.

Surely JamesBill you are smart enough to now that Luck in his next contract in 2 years will be getting his $100 million contract. No it doesn't go opposite to my point.

steelbtexan
10-20-2013, 11:47 PM
Of course I would rather have more money to spend. But that's such a simplified view. You have to look at how both teams got here. The Colts blew up the team, tanked a season, and got lucky with a potentially franchise QB, who's getting paid peanuts. I don't think it's fair to compare the Texans to the Colts at this point.

I think it's fair to criticize the Texans talent evaluation, as I mentioned in my previous post, but not cap management. There are no impending dead money disasters IMO, and it's always easier to criticize Cushing contract after tonight. But what if he hadn't gotten injured and walked after the season? He's one of the best players on our D, IMO you had to extend him.

If the Texans are great at cap management, why are they always up against the cap every offseason?

I've got a problem signing any player (including Cushing) that's coming off a major injury to a long term contract, especially when it's not absolutely necessary to sign an extention. Make the player play out the yr (prove he can stay healthy) and then extend the player. Kinda like the Ravens (Who are great at cap management) did with Flacco.

JamesBill
10-20-2013, 11:54 PM
Surely JamesBill you are smart enough to now that Luck in his next contract in 2 years will be getting his $100 million contract. No it doesn't go opposite to my point.

They can extend the current contract to a fifth year. That will probably be good leverage compared to Aaron Rodgers. Can't say for sure because no rookie under those rules has signed an extension yet.

It seems to me that a few arguments are being muddled together, which confuse the reaility of the Texans' situation.


Thanks, agree with everything you laid out in a better organized format.
If the Texans are great at cap management, why are they always up against the cap every offseason?

I've got a problem signing any player (including Cushing)

I guess it is because Cushing was injured today, but Foster and Schaub extensions are much worse than Cushing's. Plus Cushing tore his LCL, his previous injury didn't cause that problem.

Texian
10-20-2013, 11:58 PM
They can extend the current contract to a fifth year. That will probably be good leverage compared to Aaron Rodgers. Can't say for sure because no rookie under those rules has signed an extension yet.

If the Texans don't clean house and have their own fire sale the Texans will be playing second fiddle to Andrew Luck much the same way the Texans played second fiddle to Peyton Manning.

Goatcheese
10-21-2013, 12:00 AM
If the Texans are great at cap management, why are they always up against the cap every offseason?

I've got a problem signing any player (including Cushing) that's coming off a major injury to a long term contract, especially when it's not absolutely necessary to sign an extention. Make the player play out the yr (prove he can stay healthy) and then extend the player. Kinda like the Ravens (Who are great at cap management) did with Flacco.

Did you just use Flacco as an example of doing cap management right? They had to pay the dude twice as much because they couldn't get a contract done before his brief moment in the sun. Now he's making Manning Money and playing like Joe Flacco.

Which one is Schaub?
Which one is Super Bowl MVP GOAT Joe SUPERSTAR Flacco?

8 TD 8 INT 273 YPG 7.1 YPA
8 TD 9 INT 258 YPG 6.7 YPA

JamesBill
10-21-2013, 12:01 AM
If the Texans don't clean house and have their own fire sale the Texans will be playing second fiddle to Andrew Luck much the same way the Texans played second fiddle to Peyton Manning.

What are you calling clean house? I agree with cutting Schaub, Reed, JJo and Foster. Those moves would not take away much talent, and would be huge for the Cap even after you sign Tate.

SchaubApologist
10-21-2013, 12:05 AM
What are you calling clean house? I agree with cutting Schaub, JJo and Foster. Those moves would not take away much talent, and would be huge for the Cap even after you sign Tate.

schaub
jjo
foster
reed
daniels

not resigning:
antonio smith
ben tate

would be a good start.

Texian
10-21-2013, 12:10 AM
What are you calling clean house?

Smubiak must go, along with Schaub, Foster, Manning and Reed. The house is clean and salary cap repaired and restored.

drs23
10-21-2013, 12:31 AM
That is simply not true. The Texans cap philosophy is the opposite. They want to keep the books clean and not sacrifice one year for another. Looking forward, the cap is quite healthy. Some contracts are back-loaded, of course. But that is empowering for the Texans, because they can cut the player at the end of a contract and save themselves from the huge salary, if they choose, without taking on any substantial dead money. For instance, Danieal Manning and OD will both be cut next year to save about $10 million in cap unless they agree to restructure.

Also, all teams are forecasting a significant increase in the cap number by 2015.

Yeah, well I remember after the lock out and the signings of the new TV contracts that everyone's impression was that the NFL was going to make it rain when everything was settled. Well it didn't rain. It wasn't even really a light drizzle. More like a drought. I'll be surprised if it's much more than a light shower in 2015.

We'll see.

JamesBill
10-21-2013, 12:38 AM
Smubiak must go, along with Schaub, Foster, Manning and Reed. The house is clean and salary cap repaired and restored.

What would you do with Wade? Do you think he would be OK being passed on for the HC job? If he agrees to stay, do you think a top flight HC will agree to him as the DC?

Texian
10-21-2013, 01:01 AM
What would you do with Wade? Do you think he would be OK being passed on for the HC job? If he agrees to stay, do you think a top flight HC will agree to him as the DC?

That I don't know but you have to give the new Head Coach the freedom to hire his coaches. Making demands on a new HC from the get go is not a good way to start. I'm guessing that Wade would be happy to stay in Houston if given the opportunity. I don't think Bob McNair will make Wade HC.

Norg
10-21-2013, 01:09 AM
Cleaning house is not just sunshine and roses cleaning house also means getting rid of some players u want to keep

not just dump

Kubes Scahub reed and half of the ST and prob like two other so called star players

SWATteam
10-21-2013, 02:33 AM
In essence, the Texans have 8-10 players who make minimums ($500K-$900K per yr) instead of players with a higher value of $2-$4 million a year because they've borrowed that money from future years to get under the cap every year since 2010.

Every year it's the same scramble to find rookie/vet minimums that fit under the contract and the bottom of the roster is one of the weaker in the league. When you can only afford $500K per year player instead of $2-$4 million a year player you get the results you get. It will only get worse dur to all the injuries.

In essence the Texans have borrowed every year for 4 years they have compromised the salary cap. Instead of having 100% of the salary cap to work with they only have 85%-90% because they've to pay back what they borrowed. That's why every year they have only been able to sign vets worthy of league minimums instead of potential pro bowl players or players good enough to make more than league minimums. Too many band aids.


I'm gonna have to call BS on this point you keep hammering. The bottom of our roster being one of the weakest is simply not true... that's why you see even some of our cuts like Chris Jones and Clutts playing major roles for other teams. Can you name one vet-min player we had to scramble to find to fill out the roster this off season? Only one close to that was Joe Mays who starts for us.

The majority of those 8-10 minimums you mentioned were the undrafted free agents who turned out to have enough potential to make the squad - every team brings in UFA for camp bodies & to find gems. Wood, Jefferson, Bouye, Tuggle, or Griffin would be snatched up by another squad if we didn't keep. Even then, if you take a look at other rosters 8-10 making 500-900k is not bad at all. Filling it with too many 2-4$mil players would be even more irresponsible cap-wise, but we still managed to bring in Greg Jones, Lechler, and Reed.

Smith has definitely made some missteps, but this story about the team being forced to fill out the roster with cheap scrubs to make up for cap-mismanagement is false.

SWATteam
10-21-2013, 03:01 AM
Even after signing Flacco to a $100 mil contract the Ravens were still able to sign 3 Pro Bowl FAs in the off season and just recently have traded for a 1st RD OT.
You mean after having to lose 6 starters to free agency, Lewis and Birk coming off the books, and being forced to trade Boldin. That almost sounds like what we had to do to get Arian signed.

They were able to give Michael Huff $6mil to be a backup, $8mil to Chris Canty as a stopgap and trade for a 1st round bust castoff from the Jags to make up for the McKinnie $7mill re-signing gaffe. Dumerville and Daryl Smith are nice adds but even Rick Smith could've pulled off that offseason.

msbbc833
10-21-2013, 03:16 AM
Clear everyone. Keep Lechler

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-21-2013, 04:15 AM
They were able to give Michael Huff $6mil to be a backup, $8mil to Chris Canty as a stopgap and trade for a 1st round bust castoff from the Jags to make up for the McKinnie $7mill re-signing gaffe. Dumerville and Daryl Smith are nice adds but even Rick Smith could've pulled off that offseason.



Then why didn't he. God knows we could use Daryl Smith right about now and he only cost Baltimore 1.1m on a one year deal.

EllisUnit
10-21-2013, 04:20 AM
Smubiak must go, along with Schaub, Foster, Manning and Reed. The house is clean and salary cap repaired and restored.

You are crazy adding Foster to that list, has he been a little banged up ? Sure he has, but he is still one of the best RBs in the NFL. That would be a mistake IMO.

As well as Manning, he is one of the only bright spots in the secondary, is he older ? Sure but Safties have proven to be able to play good even while getting older than CBs.

Mr. White
10-21-2013, 07:17 AM
Anyone assigning credit or blame to Rick Smith is assuming too much. Bob McNair could be making these calls for all we know. The truth is that we don't know who runs the team or how their powers are divided.

Just guessing here....but I think not offering Glover Quin was a Rick Smith call. Then bringing in Ed Reed must have been a McNair call since it made zero football sense.

Also, anyone looking to hang the cap crisis on Smith needs to consider Chris Olsen since he was hired from the NFL specifically to avoid such a disaster.

None of this means that I think Rick Smith should get a pass. I haven't seen or heard anything that leads me to believe that he brings anything to the table.

Corrosion
10-21-2013, 09:32 AM
Anyone assigning credit or blame to Rick Smith is assuming too much. Bob McNair could be making these calls for all we know. The truth is that we don't know who runs the team or how their powers are divided.

Just guessing here....but I think not offering Glover Quin was a Rick Smith call. Then bringing in Ed Reed must have been a McNair call since it made zero football sense.

Also, anyone looking to hang the cap crisis on Smith needs to consider Chris Olsen since he was hired from the NFL specifically to avoid such a disaster.

None of this means that I think Rick Smith should get a pass. I haven't seen or heard anything that leads me to believe that he brings anything to the table.

The truth is simple .... because of the letdown from the expectations many had going into the season , fans are looking for a scapegoat ... Smith is next in line behind Schaub and Kubiak.

steelbtexan
10-21-2013, 09:52 AM
The truth is simple .... because of the letdown from the expectations many had going into the season , fans are looking for a scapegoat ... Smith is next in line behind Schaub and Kubiak.

Nope

I've been saying Smith was a large part of the problem since the Okoye/Jacoby draft. Then he's on his own in the 2010 draft brcause Gary decided to have an elective surgery during the combine and Rick fell flat on his face.

Rick is more teflon than anything else. Nothing sticks to him. Nothing sticks to Gary either for that matter.

The failure of the on the field product falls squarely on BoB's shoulders.

Corrosion
10-21-2013, 10:04 AM
Nope

I've been saying Smith was a large part of the problem since the Okoye/Jacoby draft. Then he's on his own in the 2010 draft brcause Gary decided to have an elective surgery during the combine and Rick fell flat on his face.

Rick is more teflon than anything else. Nothing sticks to him. Nothing sticks to Gary either for that matter.

They all blew it in the middle rounds of this past draft .... :rake:


I still think he's done a reasonable job managing the cap .... they shot for the moon this year and were let down hard by their QB.


I'd much rather have Glover Quin than Ed Reed tho ...... :rake::rake::rake:

steelbtexan
10-21-2013, 10:27 AM
They all blew it in the middle rounds of this past draft .... :rake:


I still think he's done a reasonable job managing the cap .... they shot for the moon this year and were let down hard by their QB.


I'd much rather have Glover Quin than Ed Reed tho ...... :rake::rake::rake:

Do you think they are still paying for going all in on the JoJo/Manning extentions and the unwise (IMHO) re-signing of Schaub/Cushing when they didn't have to be re-signed and were coming off major injuries.

BTW, this isn't MMQBing, I said it was a bad idea when these signings were done.

Bottom line for me is this mess all falls on BoB.

Corrosion
10-21-2013, 10:39 AM
Do you think they are still paying for going all in on the JoJo/Manning extentions and the unwise (IMHO) re-signing of Schaub/Cushing when they didn't have to be re-signed and were coming off major injuries.

BTW, this isn't MMQBing, I said it was a bad idea when these signings were done.

Bottom line for me is this mess all falls on BoB.

The short answer is yes ....

They do have an awful lot of $$$ tied up in those four players ..... J.Jo and Schaub being the two highest cap hits on the team this season.


I've said before that I thought resigning Schaub last season was premature , but I can see why they did it. The QB spot is the hardest position to fill in all of sports and he appeared healthy.

If anything , I question the medical advice they are getting when Doc nailed the injury and subsequent issues surrounding it as being degerative.


Cushing was starting to look like the Cushing from before the ACL ..... at least in my opinion. That was just a bad break - no pun intended - for both the team and Cushing.


If there was one move I could take back , it would be Glover Quin staying over bringing in Ed Reed.

I was fine with Barwin walking even tho I think he got a bad rap last season when it came to sack numbers. He did a lot of other things well (setting the edge and played well in coverage) and he did get a lot of pressure , just didn't get home enough. He wasn't a make or break piece for the defense.


Overall , I believe they set themselves up good cap wise to go all in this season and make a deep playoff run. The preseason expectations back that up .... Schaub let them down with his abysmal play. Hard to fathom him playing that poorly ....

TexansFight
10-21-2013, 11:05 AM
If the Texans are great at cap management, why are they always up against the cap every offseason?

I've got a problem signing any player (including Cushing) that's coming off a major injury to a long term contract, especially when it's not absolutely necessary to sign an extention. Make the player play out the yr (prove he can stay healthy) and then extend the player. Kinda like the Ravens (Who are great at cap management) did with Flacco.

Great post. This is why I covet DeCosta, Ozzie Newsome's right hand guy in Baltimore, to come in as our new GM. I want a salary cap witch like Daryl Morey and DeCosta is in the same mold.

PHILLYTEXANFAN
10-21-2013, 11:10 AM
What if the next regime wants to move on without Dre???

Texian
10-21-2013, 11:16 AM
I'm gonna have to call BS on this point you keep hammering. The bottom of our roster being one of the weakest is simply not true... that's why you see even some of our cuts like Chris Jones and Clutts playing major roles for other teams. Can you name one vet-min player we had to scramble to find to fill out the roster this off season? Only one close to that was Joe Mays who starts for us. Gardner, Dobbins, McClain, White Jefferson, PLeasant, Tuggle Wood, Mack, Mohammed, Byrne.

The majority of those 8-10 minimums you mentioned were the undrafted free agents who turned out to have enough potential to make the squad - every team brings in UFA for camp bodies & to find gems.Negative Ghost Rider, the reason they were signed and made the team had more to do with their minimum salary cap hit. The reason they all are minimums is because that's all the Texans salary cap could afford were Wood, Jefferson, Bouye, Tuggle, or Griffin would be snatched up by another squad if we didn't keep. Assumption Even then, if you take a look at other rosters 8-10 making 500-900k is not bad at all. Filling it with too many 2-4$mil players would be even more irresponsible cap-wise, but we still managed to bring in Greg Jones, Lechler, and Reed. Because of back loaded contracts and the number of restructured contracts the Texans salary cap is top heavy and the reason why each year there is not enough cap room to meet the minimum obligations for the year and the reason why the Texans have to restructure so many contracts every year.

Smith has definitely made some missteps, but this story about the team being forced to fill out the roster with cheap scrubs to make up for cap-mismanagement is false. NO it's a fact, the cheap players make the case regardless of the number of excuses you use. Evidence is clear that the reason more expensive players were not signed is simply because they could not afford them.

You can call it whatever you want to call it but whatever you call it, it will be just another excuse. All the excuses says DENIAL.


Dumerville and Daryl Smith are nice adds but even Rick Smith could've pulled off that offseason.

He couldn't and more important, he didn't. 1. Couldn't afford them 2. What could the Texans afford after cutting trading so many to give Foster a raise? Answer, Foster's raise, that's all. 3. Rick Smith is to Gary Kubiak what Scott Pioli was to Belichick. Regardless Smubiak still couldn't do it because they still can't afford it. That's my exact point for the last 4 years. The Texans couldn't get better through FA, they've been doing the ole 2 step backwards dance the last 4 years. It has finally caught up with them and you're seeing those results today.

Sep 22 Baltimore 30 Texans 9

You are crazy adding Foster to that list, has he been a little banged up ? Sure he has, but he is still one of the best RBs in the NFL. That would be a mistake IMO.

As well as Manning, he is one of the only bright spots in the secondary, is he older ? Sure but Safties have proven to be able to play good even while getting older than CBs.

I would try to trade Foster. The days of Alex Gibbs ZBS are days gone by. Foster is a 4 ypc or < RB today. That's nothing exceptional. With the decline of the OL it's not going to get any better, likely worse.

According to PFF Manning ranks 55th out of 84 safties. That's $6 mil a year cap hit for a position that doesn't rank in the top 50%.

steelbtexan
10-21-2013, 11:32 AM
What if the next regime wants to move on without Dre???

I'm OK with it.

If Unitas/Montana/Emmit/Rice can be traded or let go then I'm OK with AJ leaving. This is what teams that are good at cap management do. It's the reason future HOFer Ed Reed is a Texan today.

ObsiWan
10-22-2013, 12:47 AM
What are you calling clean house? I agree with cutting Schaub, Reed, JJo and Foster. Those moves would not take away much talent, and would be huge for the Cap even after you sign Tate.

schaub
jjo
foster
reed
daniels

not resigning:
antonio smith
ben tate

would be a good start.

I'm sorry but are you saying we cut J.Joseph and let Brice McCain be the #2 CB? And if not McCain, then who??
Seriously?? Restructure? Sure. Cut Joseph and let McCain (or whoever) start? No.

And if I have to chose between the two RBs, I'm keeping Foster and trading Ben Tate. Even if it's only for a 4th or something.

I'm fairly certain that A. Smith's contract will be restructured or he will be cut.

And I've not seen a single mention of who will replace these guys while keeping us at a competitive talent level.

I have no wish to sink back to the Cleveland/Oakland/Jacksonville level of talent where we're waiting for other teams to cut guys so we can fill up our depth chart.

And do you think J.J. Watt is gonna want to stay here if we've cut what little help he has around him?

Texian
10-22-2013, 06:06 PM
I'm gonna have to call BS on this point you keep hammering. The bottom of our roster being one of the weakest is simply not true... .

In the last 48 hours, Montgomery GONE, Wood GONE, Jefferson GONE, Dobbins GONE...hows that above argument working out for you today?

Hervoyel
10-22-2013, 08:30 PM
In the last 48 hours, Montgomery GONE, Wood GONE, Jefferson GONE, Dobbins GONE...hows that above argument working out for you today?


Looks like a lot of non-contributing weak-links were cast off with the exception of Wood who we can replace with nearly zero effort. a ZBS RB can be found in every bargain bin in the league.

Until we see who takes those places as well as what they do I can't say that any of those moves made much difference in the big picture.

Texian
10-22-2013, 09:38 PM
Looks like a lot of non-contributing weak-links were cast off with the exception of Wood who we can replace with nearly zero effort. a ZBS RB can be found in every bargain bin in the league.

Until we see who takes those places as well as what they do I can't say that any of those moves made much difference in the big picture.

Exactly my point, that's all they could afford.

EllisUnit
10-22-2013, 09:43 PM
What if the next regime wants to move on without Dre???

Not likely considering he is still a top 10 WR in this league. He isnt going anywhere until he decides he is ready to have a chance at a SB else where or retire. I personally hope he retires before then.

EllisUnit
10-22-2013, 09:48 PM
Texian : I would try to trade Foster. The days of Alex Gibbs ZBS are days gone by. Foster is a 4 ypc or < RB today. That's nothing exceptional. With the decline of the OL it's not going to get any better, likely worse.

Will still have to disagree with you, Foster when healthy is one of the best RBs in the NFL. There is not MANY guys i would take over him. He might be a 4 ypc back, but he is the kind of RB who can carry a team on his back, and he also gets better as the game goes on. We have had pretty much zero leads this season so foster has not been able to close out a game like he does so well.

Texian
10-23-2013, 07:33 PM
he wasted two picks on outside linebackers we didnt need and did not address the ILB and DT depth.

Has not fired joe marciano, stayed with schaub for too long, as well as kubiak. Rick smith comes off as a yes man company tool with no real autonomy or sovereignty as GM.

He lets coaches exert too much managerial control.

That's because Rick Smith is not a real GM. As you suggest Rick Smith is a yes man company tool with no real autonomy or sovereignty as GM. Rick Smith is to Gary Kubiak as Scott Pioli was to Bill Belichick. Gary Kubiak has final say on the 53 man roster, it's part of his contract.

texanhead08
10-23-2013, 07:57 PM
That's because Rick Smith is not a real GM. As you suggest Rick Smith is a yes man company tool with no real autonomy or sovereignty as GM. Rick Smith is to Gary Kubiak as Scott Pioli was to Bill Belichick. Gary Kubiak has final say on the 53 man roster, it's part of his contract.


This has worked out well hasn't it. Welcome to mediocrity

thunderkyss
10-23-2013, 08:10 PM
I like Case, but I just wonder how will do once teams have tape on him.....

As long as he keeps his head & doesn't start making poor decisions with the ball, tape won't matter. This is still Kubiak's system, a system that helped Matt put up nigh elite numbers. The system will get recievers open... he does need to work on his footwork & timing, but he should be alright.

thunderkyss
10-23-2013, 08:22 PM
I agree he's worthless. I think our problem maybe that we just need bodies at the spot. I think Keo should be getting more reps. He has been playing better than I expected.

We were supposed to have a fierce pass-rush, Reed was supposed to help capitalize on QB mistakes, make QBs think twice about going deep. It's difficult to judge Reed when we aren't pressuring the QB. A better slot corner would help out more than a better Reed would since QBs have been able to hit that slot Reciever so quickly.

thunderkyss
10-23-2013, 09:37 PM
If the Texans are great at cap management, why are they always up against the cap every offseason?

I've got a problem signing any player (including Cushing) that's coming off a major injury to a long term contract, especially when it's not absolutely necessary to sign an extention. Make the player play out the yr (prove he can stay healthy) and then extend the player. Kinda like the Ravens (Who are great at cap management) did with Flacco.

I think you're correct in that the problem started around the 2010 season... but it was after, not before. The Texans obviously (far as I can tell) expected an increase in the cap for the 2011, 2012, 2013, & 2014 season. Their capology was computed with that in mind, so contracts signed in 2008, 2009, 2010 are weighing much heavier on our cap than expected.

As far as signing Cushing, they gambled... it looked like a good gamble until he got hurt. He wasn't pre-injury Cushing, but he was getting better every game. Still, this might be a blessing in disguise.... he might have been pushing much harder than he should have to let his ACL fully heal. Now that he's going to be sidelined a few more months, maybe it'll properly heal. Coming back from this an LCL & broken bone is nothing compared to an ACL.

Waiting until he "proved" he was healthy (the way you said it suggests this is had more to do with his previous injury than Jamaal Charles' shoulder pads) would have raised the price, or we'd have let him go.

& I'm 100% positive the Ravens would have preferred Joey signed the contract they offered before the season that he refused. Instead, they, (like the Jets with Sanchez) over paid for their own player. If Flacco wins another Super Bowl, then it's all good & I'm wrong, but they're not going to win another Super Bowl with Joe Flacco.

Matt Schaub gambled as well, same as Flacco he told the Texans he was worth more than $60M, more than the $10M/yr avg salary they offered. But after the fans booed him week 1, he had second thoughts & offered to take the deal. Rick Smith broke his own policy to make it happen.

thunderkyss
10-23-2013, 09:49 PM
Here is the truth, since 2010 the Texans have for every year mortgaged the future.

2006 (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2006-03-07-notebook_x.htm)

2007 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2773817)

2012 (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d826f73f9/article/irsay-manning-welcome-back-to-colts-but-on-restructured-deal)

2012 (http://blogs.nfl.com/2012/03/12/freeney-signs-with-caa-as-colts-try-to-restructure-deal/)

The Texans learned from the best. If you pay attention, you'll see over the years the Patriots, & Steelers have also restructured contracts at various times to get under the cap. That's football.

But it is interesting to see how the Colts, Patriots, Steelers, & Texans have managed the cap since 2011. Totally different approaches, but slightly different motivations. While the fans might gripe, they're willing to stuggle a little if they've already won Championships, or snagged the best QB prospect in our generation.... what the Colts is going through right now is a total surprise to all of them. Patriots.... well, that's Belichick & Brady. Steelers, Giants, Panthers.... we're not the only ones hurting.

Rey
10-23-2013, 11:24 PM
I wouldn't lay everything bad or good at smiths feet. Kubiak was here first. That alone likely means kubiak has more than a little say in personnel decisions. Especially offensively.

I think the decision on whether to sign Matt or not was above his head. That was a McNair kubiak decision IMO.

Texian
10-24-2013, 09:41 AM
2006 (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2006-03-07-notebook_x.htm)

2007 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2773817)

2012 (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d826f73f9/article/irsay-manning-welcome-back-to-colts-but-on-restructured-deal)

2012 (http://blogs.nfl.com/2012/03/12/freeney-signs-with-caa-as-colts-try-to-restructure-deal/)

The Texans learned from the best. If you pay attention, you'll see over the years the Patriots, & Steelers have also restructured contracts at various times to get under the cap. That's football.

But it is interesting to see how the Colts, Patriots, Steelers, & Texans have managed the cap since 2011. Totally different approaches, but slightly different motivations. While the fans might gripe, they're willing to stuggle a little if they've already won Championships, or snagged the best QB prospect in our generation.... what the Colts is going through right now is a total surprise to all of them. Patriots.... well, that's Belichick & Brady. Steelers, Giants, Panthers.... we're not the only ones hurting.

The BOTTOM LINE:....Since 2010 The Texans have started each new league year with NOT enough available salary cap dollars to meet the MINIMUM FINANCIAL OBLIGATIONS of completing a 53 man roster and a 8 man practice squad.

In order to meet the minimum obligations for each of the last four years the Texans have had to resort to borrowing money from future years by restructuring players contracts. In essence the Texans took expenses of the current season and moved those expenses to be paid in future season(s) in order to remain salary cap compliant.

In addition the Texans also had to resort to releasing and trading players over this time period as another tool to reduce expenses to make it possible for the Texans meet the MINIMUM FINANCIAL OBLIGATIONS of a 53 man roster and 8 player practice squad. Due to the limited salary cap funds available the Texans have not been able in most cases to replace the players lost with equal or better talent.

Compound the poor management of the salary cap, the releasing and trading of high value players, the inability to replace the lost players with equal talent and factor in years of average to below average drafts and you have all the reasons why the 2013 Texans are 2 - 5.

thunderkyss
10-24-2013, 09:58 AM
Compound the poor management of the salary cap, the releasing and trading of players, the inability to replace the lost players and factor in years of average to below average drafts and you have all the reasons why the 2013 Texans are 2 - 5.

So what was the reason they were 10-6 in 2011 & 12-4 in 2012? It was the same guys pulling the trigger. We're 2-5 now, because of poor cap management, blah, blah, blah......

has nothing to do with our QB scoring for the other team....... salary cap issue mismanagement or not, Schaub was going to be our starting QB in 2012.

Ed Reed or Glover Quin in the secondary has nothing to do with giving up PIs to extend drives.

We could be $40M under the cap & the fat hobbit is still 3-3 on 50 yard kicks.

You make a good argument, but you're wrong. The Texans manage the cap the same way everyone else manages the cap, Matt Schaub & his pick 6 thing has been our biggest issue.

Ole Miss Texan
10-24-2013, 10:26 AM
Maybe I'm blind but I still don't see Rick Smith as having completely mismanaged the salary cap and that's caused us to suck.

Are we consistently "against the cap"? Yes... But don't confused that with "cap hell". We've got probowl top players in the league at a lot of positions and they're being paid accordingly. Duane Brown, Arian Foster, Andre Johnson, Chris Meyers, Owen Daniels, Brian Cushing. Matt Schaub is looking like the only terrible contract due to his play. Antonio Smith is getting paid handsomely but he's a solid player. Ed Reed is underperforming but they're not throwing it his way. Joseph and Manning were great the 1st year.

Look we've got a lot of players that just aren't playing up to how they should. We're in a huge slump and a lot of fault can be placed on coaching. Can Rick Smith be blamed? Sure but making him a scape goat is just ignorant.

He's built this team with a TON of talent, he's paid the players that deserve it (save Schaub) and we don't have much if any dead money. Now we'll see what happens going forward.

I view this much differently than many fans it looks like. I don't think Smith and Kubiak are tied at the hip. I think McNair would let Kubes go and keep Smith. With that said if Rick pounds on the desk in support of Kubiak and we have back to back crap seasons then I see it differently.

I think they're both here next year, Marciano is let go. And Matt Schaub is fighting got his career the rest of the season

steelbtexan
10-24-2013, 10:34 AM
Truth

The Colts had 1 down yr and got their QB. They also saved a huge amount of cap $$$$ by letting Manning walk. They used that cap $$$$ to sign upgrades of the OL/DB's and although there were no superstars signed, the FA's they did sign were upgrades and they can let go of the players they did sign next offeason with very little cap hit.

Grigson is a smart GM and the Colts are making moves to win a SB. Grigson isn't playing around. He wants to win and win now. The Texans are meanwhile treading water, being very conservative. Which is a trademark of the BoB regime.

Texian may be on to something, the Texans need to cleanout all of the bad contracts, extend Watt and move forward. Even if that means taking a step back next yr. Hopefully they find their QB of the future next yr either thru the draft or Keenum. If they do this next yr will be considered a sucess, regardless of their record. IMHO

If they decide to do this (be smart) instead of kicking the can down the road, I want somebody other than Rick/Gary making the calls on retooling the franchise.

Runner
10-24-2013, 10:38 AM
The Texans are a perennially mediocre team.

They jumped on the chance presented to them when the Colts fell apart and won the division at 10-6. This is notable because that is one of the few times this organization has successfully taken advantage of an opportunity laid before them.

Last year they had a very, very good season. 12-4 for the division crown. That was an exceptional season in two senses of the word. It was exceptional in comparison to other teams that year, but it was also the exception to the Texans usual performance.

Mix in two each of 6-10 and 8-8. Don't forget the "wildly successful" 9-7.

It is almost halfway into this season and the Texans will have to improve drastically just to reach their usual, extremely average result.

It isn't just the QB, or just the coaches, or just the GM. The front office, coaches, and many players are responsible for the way this team has performed over the years. Many changes will be required to change this team from what they are: average. The GM and coaches have to go, and the new regime will take care of weeding out the players.

Texian
10-24-2013, 10:39 AM
So what was the reason they were 10-6 in 2011 & 12-4 in 2012? It was the same guys pulling the trigger. We're 2-5 now, because of poor cap management, blah, blah, blah......

It eventually caught up with them. For three years they couldn't get better. Cutting players and trading players without replacement of equal or better value eventually caught up with them. Poor to average drafts eventually caught up with them.

Further to your question about 2011 & 2012, the Texans success was directly related to the Colts and Titans demise (departures of Manning & Fisher). Also The Texans borrowed heavily in 2010 which had direct effects on 2011 & 2013. When you borrow money you have to pay it back, after four years of borrowing it finally caught up with them. In 2013 they had to pay the Piper.

FYI - If things remain the same the Texans will start 2014 without enough Salary Cap dollars to meet the Minimum Financial Obligations a 53 man roster, 8 practice squad players. Once again the Texans will only be able to afford rookie and vet minimums. Once again the Texans will be unable to take any steps forward to getting better. Once again it will only be more steps backwards. 2015 is a big time step back. If nothing changes come 2015 the Texans will once again be at the bottom of the division.

2012Champs
10-24-2013, 10:40 AM
Truth

The Colts had 1 down yr and got their QB. They also saved a huge amount of cap $$$$ by letting Manning walk. They used that cap $$$$ to sign upgrades of the OL/DB's and although there were no superstars signed, the FA's they did sign were upgrades and they can let go of the players they did sign next offeason with very little cap hit.

Grigson is a smart GM and the Colts are making moves to win a SB. Grigson isn't playing around. He wants to win and win now. The Texans are meanwhile treading water, being very conservative. Which is a trademark of the BoB regime.

Texian may be on to something, the Texans need to cleanout all of the bad contracts, extend Watt and move forward. Even if that means taking a step back next yr. Hopefully they find their QB of the future next yr either thru the draft or Keenum. If they do this next yr will be considered a sucess, regardless of their record. IMHO

If they decide to do this (be smart) instead of kicking the can down the road, I want somebody other than Rick/Gary making the calls on retooling the franchise.



So where would the colts be without Manning's injury? That is the only reason they shed cap space, did as poorly as they did to get ther draft pick they didn and that all happend in the year in which Luck hit the draft. So tell me how well that is managing the cap or being a great GM?

steelbtexan
10-24-2013, 11:05 AM
So where would the colts be without Manning's injury? That is the only reason they shed cap space, did as poorly as they did to get ther draft pick they didn and that all happend in the year in which Luck hit the draft. So tell me how well that is managing the cap or being a great GM?

Ummmm....

Irsay decided to step out of his comfort zone and fire the Polian's. He took a chance and hired an unknown Grigson. Taking chances like this in addition to hitting on Luck are the reason the colts have passed the Texans in 2 yrs.

It's time for the Texans to take that step back for a couple of yrs and hire a new regime to begin a minor rebuild. This starts with finding the QB of the future and I dont want Rick/Gary making those choices.

If BoB had made the difficult decision like the Colts did after the 2009 season, like Irsay did with the Polian's, t and made the right hire, like the Colts did in hiring Grigson. The Texans would be in a much better place today. IMHO

Of course that was to traumatic for BoB to make a move like that at the time. Not that as you said previouly BoB owes the fanbase anything, you know like BoB doing everything in his power to put the best product possible on the field.

Texian
10-24-2013, 11:09 AM
Maybe I'm blind but I still don't see Rick Smith as having completely mismanaged the salary cap and that's caused us to suck.


Look at it this way, you begin every month with NOT enough cash to pay all your bills. In order to meet your financial obligations you borrow money from the bank, you make arrangements with Utility Company to pay your electric bill next year and you cut your cable service.

Is your quality of life getting better or worse? You may think you're doing a good job of managing your finances today but what about next year? Next year you will have the same situation as this year but you also have to pay back your bank loan and utility bills from the previous year. Are you getting better or worse?

jaayteetx
10-24-2013, 11:13 AM
Ummmm....

Irsay decided to step out of his comfort zone and fire the Polian's. He took a chance and hired an unknown Grigson. Taking chances like this in addition to hitting on Luck are the reason the colts have passed the Texans in 2 yrs.

It's time for the Texans to take that step back for a couple of yrs and hire a new regime to begin a minor rebuild. This starts with finding the QB of the future and I dont want Rick/Gary making those choices.

If BoB had made the difficult decision like the Colts did after the 2009 season, like Irsay did with the Polian's, t and made the right hire, like the Colts did in hiring Grigson. The Texans would be in a much better place today. IMHO

Of course that was to traumatic for BoB to make a move like that at the time. Not that as you said previouly BoB owes the fanbase anything, you know like BoB doing everything in his power to put the best product possible on the field.

The Colts are doing well because they tanked in order to get the best QB prospect since...Peyton Manning, period. In this league, if you have a great QB you can make an average team good to great and if you don't have one make a good team bad. The new GM in Indy did nothing special but walk into a great situation.

Exascor
10-24-2013, 11:15 AM
See below post:

Texian
10-24-2013, 11:15 AM
The Colts are doing well because they tanked in order to get the best QB prospect since...Peyton Manning, period. In this league, if you have a great QB you can make an average team good to great and if you don't have one make a good team bad. The new GM in Indy did nothing special but walk into a great situation.

That and hiring some very good coaches and signing a dozen above average free agents.

2012Champs
10-24-2013, 11:16 AM
Ummmm....

Irsay decided to step out of his comfort zone and fire the Polian's. He took a chance and hired an unknown Grigson. Taking chances like this in addition to hitting on Luck are the reason the colts have passed the Texans in 2 yrs.

It's time for the Texans to take that step back for a couple of yrs and hire a new regime to begin a minor rebuild. This starts with finding the QB of the future and I dont want Rick/Gary making those choices.

If BoB had made the difficult decision like the Colts did after the 2009 season, like Irsay did with the Polian's, t and made the right hire, like the Colts did in hiring Grigson. The Texans would be in a much better place today. IMHO

Of course that was to traumatic for BoB to make a move like that at the time. Not that as you said previouly BoB owes the fanbase anything, you know like BoB doing everything in his power to put the best product possible on the field.



The Colts sucked and got Luck. The only reason they walked away from Manning was his neck issue. Hoping Manning would recover wasnt staying in a comfort zone.

2012Champs
10-24-2013, 11:17 AM
That and hiring some very good coaches and signing a dozen above average free agents.


They couldnt sign the free agents without dropping manning and signing a rookie QB lets not overstate the moves here

jaayteetx
10-24-2013, 11:17 AM
That and hiring some very good coaches and signing a dozen above average free agents.

Let's see how "good" and "above average" they are when/if Luck goes down with an injury.

Exascor
10-24-2013, 11:21 AM
So what was the reason they were 10-6 in 2011 & 12-4 in 2012? It was the same guys pulling the trigger. We're 2-5 now, because of poor cap management, blah, blah, blah......

has nothing to do with our QB scoring for the other team....... salary cap issue mismanagement or not, Schaub was going to be our starting QB in 2012.

Ed Reed or Glover Quin in the secondary has nothing to do with giving up PIs to extend drives.

We could be $40M under the cap & the fat hobbit is still 3-3 on 50 yard kicks.

You make a good argument, but you're wrong. The Texans manage the cap the same way everyone else manages the cap, Matt Schaub & his pick 6 thing has been our biggest issue.Does Rick Smith deserve all the blame for this season's craptastic beginning? No. The question is, did he contribute? The fact is that we DID release (or let walk in FA) solid to great players without a viable backup ready to step up. It's no big deal letting Winston (solid but high salary) go but having a long time back up in Butler & a low round draft pick as your replacement plan is very risky. It failed and we are still feeling the pain. Trading Ryans (solid but high salary) has left us looking for a replacement still today. Those were salary cap deals (along with Briesel & J Jones) that we didn't have a good plan in place to replace them. That's as much on Smith as it is on Kubiak imo.

Also - restructuring/extending contracts worked great in the past. Basically when you restructure, you push money from the current season into future seasons. This doesn't work any more. Why? The salary cap was being increased each year allowing you to absorb the extra money in the future. It hasn't increased since the new players agreement. See below chart. It doesn't work now. All it does now it hamstrings your team in the future.

Now you HAVE to hit on multiple draft picks to replace good players you can no longer afford or be able to reward great players with new contracts. That's the only way to make sure you can keep a JJ Watt and not lose him like Mario. Look at the 2013 draft and give me anything (other than Hopkins) that makes you say "The Texans had a GREAT draft". It really was terrible. We picked 7 picks in the 3rd to 7th rounds. Only 1 6th round pick is on the roster atm. Even the 2012 draft produced a bunch of JAGs - Mercilus, Posey, Martin, Brooks, Jones, Crick & Bullock. Go back to 2011. JJ Watt & a few JAGs. Complete whiffs with Harris and Carmichael. What's left? Reed, Keo, Yates & Newton. Yeah. Reed and JAGs or worse.

Kubiak is part of the problem. Schaub is part of the problem. Newton is part of the problem. Marciano is part of the problem. Phillips is part of the problem. I could go on. We need to clean house. Rick Smith may not be THE problem but he is definitely part of it IMO.

http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/4e2729d84bd7c8815e000000/nfl-salary-cap.jpg

Texian
10-24-2013, 11:22 AM
Let's see how "good" and "above average" they are when/if Luck goes down with an injury.

They're are good enough to be leading the Texans by 3 games mid season. They're are good enough to beat San Fran, Seattle and Denver.

Runner
10-24-2013, 11:23 AM
Let's see how "good" and "above average" they are when/if Luck goes down with an injury.

I'm sure that was said about the Colts and Manning too. It took them two years to recover.

That's a little faster than the Texans are willing/capable of moving.

jaayteetx
10-24-2013, 11:25 AM
They're are good enough to be leading the Texans by 3 games mid season. They're are good enough to beat San Fran, Seattle and Denver.

Yep, WITH Luck, without I think they would be wallowing down in the cellar with the Jags.

jaayteetx
10-24-2013, 11:27 AM
I'm sure that was said about the Colts and Manning too. It took them two years to recover.

That's a little faster than the Texans are willing/capable of moving.

And rightly so, like I said, those two are two of the finest QB prospects this league has ever seen, no coincidence there.

Runner
10-24-2013, 11:41 AM
Deleted

thunderkyss
10-24-2013, 11:52 AM
The Colts are doing well because they tanked in order to get the best QB prospect since...Peyton Manning, period

It's more than that. The Colts are playing better than they should on all phases of the game, especially defensively & ST. Luck is not playing as well as he's being made out to be, he's got players stepping up on both sides of the ball.

We've got people who should be stepping up, but aren't. Not because we're paying them too much money, but because they aren't. Brooks Reed & Mercilus should be beasting, no reason why they aren't. Brandon Harris should be our nickel, he's not. Ben Tate didn't get us anything Sunday when Arian left the game.... Ben Tate hadn't done much of anything over the last three games.

You look at the Colts & I guarantee you they're getting more out of their players per dollar than we are.

So if Texian was saying we're paying our players too much due to poor talent evaluation, or failure to see the writing on the wall (Wade Smith should have been cut & Antnoio's contract should have been extended) that would be one thing, but he's not. He (or she) is saying we spent so much money in the past that we can't afford to bring in new players..... but we have no dead money on the books.

We're paying a lot of money to players who had performed well for us over the years, they're just not producing this year. Schaub earned every bit of his $7.2M sallary & a $3.5M good faith win us a Super Bowl incentive is not out of line for a starting QB. Way out of whack for what he's given us this year, but not the gross cap mismanagement some would have you believe.

gary
10-24-2013, 12:00 PM
Cut Joseph and cut Reed. So many GM here. Apply now.

bOODRO87
10-24-2013, 12:10 PM
Wow, some are actually defending the Texans status quo? This organization needs a major shake up.

htownfan32
10-24-2013, 12:14 PM
I'm sure that was said about the Colts and Manning too. It took them two years to recover.

That's a little faster than the Texans are willing/capable of moving.

If we'd tanked at the right time and gotten Luck, we'd be winning Superbowls too.

There is absolutely nothing special done by the Colts FO other than suck at the right time to get Luck. They signed friggin Gosder Cherilus to a huge deal when he's not worth that amount of money. Luck is simply the difference between mediocrity and greatness

Texian
10-24-2013, 12:20 PM
Yep, WITH Luck, without I think they would be wallowing down in the cellar with the Jags.

They can do all that without a defense? WOW!

Norg
10-24-2013, 12:26 PM
umm excuse me luck has not won **** yet 0-1 in playoffs

Texian
10-24-2013, 12:29 PM
They signed friggin Gosder Cherilus to a huge deal when he's not worth that amount of money. Luck is simply the difference between mediocrity and greatness

According to PFF out of 75 rated OTs, Derek Newton ranks 73rd, Duane Brown ranks 48th and old friggin Gosder Cherilus ranks 19th.

One of these days some of you folks are just going to have to break down and admit that you're wrong.

Lot's of excuses being made for the 2 - 5 Texans on these boards today.

Runner
10-24-2013, 12:44 PM
If we'd tanked at the right time and gotten Luck, we'd be winning Superbowls too.

There is absolutely nothing special done by the Colts FO other than suck at the right time to get Luck. They signed friggin Gosder Cherilus to a huge deal when he's not worth that amount of money. Luck is simply the difference between mediocrity and greatness

With Indy the lead dog pulling the sled again, the Texans are back to the usual view the rest of the pack has. Obviously the Smithiak baby step, incremental improvement, overly cautious "right way" approach isn't "the difference between mediocrity and greatness". It IS mediocrity.

santo
10-24-2013, 12:48 PM
We need a new gm that will challenge mcnair, but then again mcnair would probably fire him and get somebody that will run the team the way he wants. :kubepalm:

Texian
10-24-2013, 12:51 PM
Luck is simply the difference between mediocrity and greatness

There is a very good chance that after 8 years Gary Kubiak will be 64-64 as Head Coach of the Houston Texans. That is the definition of mediocrity.

bOODRO87
10-24-2013, 12:53 PM
With Indy the lead dog pulling the sled, the Texans are back to the usual view the rest of the pack has. Obviously the Smithiak baby step, incremental improvement, overly cautious "right way" approach isn't "the difference between mediocrity and greatness". It IS mediocrity.

Good fkn post. :bravo: MSR.

You have to take calculated risks. Look how fast the Rockets got turned around. Daryl Morey had zero loyalty to players and moved them around like chess pieces. Now they have the two best rebounding centers, a top 5 and best SG in Harden, and lots of young talent to boot.

I know Basketball is a lot different from Football in terms of Free agency and the draft, but Daryl had some serious balls when making moves.

The Texans thought they were taking small steps forward but in fact they were taking large steps back. Schaub's extension, Reed's deal, Marciano staying and Holliday gone. It's pretty pathetic.

Runner
10-24-2013, 12:58 PM
And rightly so, like I said, those two are two of the finest QB prospects this league has ever seen, no coincidence there.

To summarize:

The Colts luckily found an approach that worked and luckily repeated it.

The Texans studiously developed an approach that doesn't work and studiously repeated it.

Runner
10-24-2013, 01:00 PM
There is a very good chance that after 8 years Gary Kubiak will be 64-64 as Head Coach of the Houston Texans. That is the definition of mediocrity.

With a playoff record of 2-2.

Playoffs
10-24-2013, 01:01 PM
umm excuse me luck has not won **** yet 0-1 in playoffs

He just beat the two http://www.modacity.net/forums/styles/smilies/emot-airquote.gif2013 Super Bowl teams -- so he's got that going for him, which is nice...

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Bill-Murray-Caddyshack.gif

dalemurphy
10-24-2013, 01:04 PM
Wow, some are actually defending the Texans status quo? This organization needs a major shake up.

Granted, there are a number of people here who have been consistent non-believers in Smithiak... While I have not shared their conclusions, they have clearly expressed their reasons, which have remained consistent- even when they allowed some hope to trickle in the past couple years.

Those people notwithstanding, it is somewhat reactionary for the fan base to freak out because of a disappointing (very disappointing) start to the season. Especially, to wildly throw blame around, as if the bad start to the season makes everything untrue.

I can't defend the coaching staff. They are responsible for the season. I can argue that I don't want them fired. Clearly, though, they have failed (to this point) this season.

However, all the panic regarding the personnel and the cap management is not based in reality. The cap has been managed well and the team is in a good position moving forward. Even these "big" contracts can be easily moved on from with very little damage. As of right now, there is no dead money on the books for next season. Furthermore, there is a lot of cap room available next year, depending on what veterans are let go.

Watching this team, I do not see a lack of talent. The fact that we are complaining about a 6th round pick that we attempted to stash on practice squad and is now playing well for New England is an indication of success from the personnel department. All teams make gambles that don't pay off (Sam Montgomery). All teams have high end free agents that begin to outlive the size of their contract (JJoseph). The Texans, however, have only one crippling contract on the books right now (Andre Johnson)... They have a lot of young talent (Brandon Brooks, Posey, Hopkins, Tate, KJackson, Mercilus, Graham, Keenum, EMitchell), including elite players at their respective positions (Duane Brown, JJ Watt)... other very good players in their prime (Cushing, AFoster) and a significant group of solid veterans who have manageable and/or expiring contracts (OD, A.Smith, Manning, JJo, Myers).

I do not see any cap issues nor deficit of talent. Any GM in the league either allows or is obligated by contract, to give the head coach freedom to determine the roster. Decisions like keeping Dobbins and exposing Chris Jones was almost definitely left to Kubiak... Certainly, I can't imagine any GM in the NFL fighting with a coach- demanding to that coach that he cut his draft pick and keep an over the hill street free agent for depth.

hollywood_texan
10-24-2013, 01:18 PM
We need a new gm that will challenge mcnair, but then again mcnair would probably fire him and get somebody that will run the team the way he wants. :kubepalm:

I think your point is the crux of the issue.

The Texans organization stuck it out too long with Carr and now with Schaub. Why? Because that is what the owner wanted. It it one thing to take a chance on a QB, but it can be disastrous when you don't cut bait at the appropriate time.

As for the other personnel moves, a team is going to win some and lose some. Excluding the QB position, the Texans organization has done a decent job.

Last week, the Texans played their best game of the season. If Kubiak improves his play calling and gets more innovate in his offensive schemes with the sole objective of scoring TDs and getting first downs when it matters the post, the Texans have the roster to be very competitive.

The best way to improve this situation as quickly as possible is to start Case Keenum and improve the play calling. With that, the rest of the stuff will take care of itself.

gary
10-24-2013, 01:39 PM
With Manning out, let's cut Reed.

Texian
10-24-2013, 02:18 PM
Granted, there are a number of people here who have been consistent non-believers in Smithiak... While I have not shared their conclusions, they have clearly expressed their reasons, which have remained consistent- even when they allowed some hope to trickle in the past couple years.

Those people notwithstanding, it is somewhat reactionary for the fan base to freak out because of a disappointing (very disappointing) start to the season. Especially, to wildly throw blame around, as if the bad start to the season makes everything untrue.

I can't defend the coaching staff. They are responsible for the season. I can argue that I don't want them fired. Clearly, though, they have failed (to this point) this season.

However, all the panic regarding the personnel and the cap management is not based in reality. The cap has been managed well and the team is in a good position moving forward. Even these "big" contracts can be easily moved on from with very little damage. As of right now, there is no dead money on the books for next season. Furthermore, there is a lot of cap room available next year, depending on what veterans are let go.

Watching this team, I do not see a lack of talent. The fact that we are complaining about a 6th round pick that we attempted to stash on practice squad and is now playing well for New England is an indication of success from the personnel department. All teams make gambles that don't pay off (Sam Montgomery). All teams have high end free agents that begin to outlive the size of their contract (JJoseph). The Texans, however, have only one crippling contract on the books right now (Andre Johnson)... They have a lot of young talent (Brandon Brooks, Posey, Hopkins, Tate, KJackson, Mercilus, Graham, Keenum, EMitchell), including elite players at their respective positions (Duane Brown, JJ Watt)... other very good players in their prime (Cushing, AFoster) and a significant group of solid veterans who have manageable and/or expiring contracts (OD, A.Smith, Manning, JJo, Myers).

I do not see any cap issues nor deficit of talent. Any GM in the league either allows or is obligated by contract, to give the head coach freedom to determine the roster. Decisions like keeping Dobbins and exposing Chris Jones was almost definitely left to Kubiak... Certainly, I can't imagine any GM in the NFL fighting with a coach- demanding to that coach that he cut his draft pick and keep an over the hill street free agent for depth.

^^^^^
Typical Kool Aid drinking fan in DENIAL.

thunderkyss
10-24-2013, 03:40 PM
^^^^^
Typical Kool Aid drinking fan in DENIAL.

Are you saying we turned the ball over on offense too much & made costly defensive penalties again & again & again because Rick Smith mismanaged the cap?

Matt Schaub (a career above average QB with clutch issues) was the guy throwing the ball to the other team... it wasn't the vet min QB we had to sign because we couldn't afford anyone else.

That was a 2nd round pick & a 1st round pick fumbling the ball to the other team, it wasn't a 6th rounder that we had to start out of desperation.

That was our prize FA signing & a 1st round pick that was committing PI in every single game, on 3rd & forever like clock work, not Petey Fagans.

That's was 2nd rounder Brooks Reed, 1st rounders Jj Watt & Brian Cushing, & big FA signing Antonio Smith committing those offsides penalties...

Brice McCain has been consistently bad, but he's not making any money, so he can't be at the center of our cap management issues.

Again, we have no dead money.... well if you want to count $2M for Walter

Texian
10-24-2013, 04:08 PM
Are you saying we turned the ball over on offense too much & made costly defensive penalties again & again & again because Rick Smith mismanaged the cap?

Matt Schaub (a career above average QB with clutch issues) was the guy throwing the ball to the other team... it wasn't the vet min QB we had to sign because we couldn't afford anyone else.

That was a 2nd round pick & a 1st round pick fumbling the ball to the other team, it wasn't a 6th rounder that we had to start out of desperation.

That was our prize FA signing & a 1st round pick that was committing PI in every single game, on 3rd & forever like clock work, not Petey Fagans.

That's was 2nd rounder Brooks Reed, 1st rounders Jj Watt & Brian Cushing, & big FA signing Antonio Smith committing those offsides penalties...

Brice McCain has been consistently bad, but he's not making any money, so he can't be at the center of our cap management issues.

Again, we have no dead money.... well if you want to count $2M for Walter

you've been placed under a hypnotic trance by Smubiak. You've been told the Texans are a good football team when they're not. Your mind has been hijacked into believeing the Colts & Titans have NOT improved and that the Texans HAVE every year that Gary Kubiak has been head coach.

SNAP OUT OF IT!

Exascor
10-24-2013, 04:17 PM
Are you saying we turned the ball over on offense too much & made costly defensive penalties again & again & again because Rick Smith mismanaged the cap?

Matt Schaub (a career above average QB with clutch issues) was the guy throwing the ball to the other team... it wasn't the vet min QB we had to sign because we couldn't afford anyone else.

That was a 2nd round pick & a 1st round pick fumbling the ball to the other team, it wasn't a 6th rounder that we had to start out of desperation.

That was our prize FA signing & a 1st round pick that was committing PI in every single game, on 3rd & forever like clock work, not Petey Fagans.

That's was 2nd rounder Brooks Reed, 1st rounders Jj Watt & Brian Cushing, & big FA signing Antonio Smith committing those offsides penalties...

Brice McCain has been consistently bad, but he's not making any money, so he can't be at the center of our cap management issues.

Again, we have no dead money.... well if you want to count $2M for WalterMy original post above was completely buried by a lot of Colts talk so maybe it was missed. Elevator Up to Buried Post (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2237431&postcount=130)

We have little dead money but we weren't able to sign any impact players either. The only "impact" player we signed was Reed. Fail. All the players you are listing were drafted/signed by...Smith. One of the points of my original post (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2237431&postcount=130) was that you HAVE to hit on multiple draft picks each year. That doesn't mean filling your roster with JAGs. You need that as well. That means you have 1-3 players that can do something great in a season or 2. Not just start, but be good to great. Watt is one. Hopkins looks like one. Anyone else fit that over the past few drafts? We have really done pretty bad in the draft. You can't be up against the cap AND blow your draft picks. The Texans have talent but little depth and plenty of holes. Who is responsible for that?

WolverineFan
10-24-2013, 04:24 PM
My original post above was completely buried by a lot of Colts talk so maybe it was missed. Elevator Up to Buried Post (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2237431&postcount=130)

We have little dead money but we weren't able to sign any impact players either. The only "impact" player we signed was Reed. Fail. All the players you are listing were drafted/signed by...Smith. One of the points of my original post (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2237431&postcount=130) was that you HAVE to hit on multiple draft picks each year. That doesn't mean filling your roster with JAGs. You need that as well. That means you have 1-3 players that can do something great in a season or 2. Not just start, but be good to great. Watt is one. Hopkins looks like one. Anyone else fit that over the past few drafts? We have really done pretty bad in the draft. You can't be up against the cap AND blow your draft picks. The Texans have talent but little depth and plenty of holes. Who is responsible for that?

http://wac.9ebf.edgecastcdn.net/809EBF/ec-origin.nyc.barstoolsports.com/files/2011/11/Screen-Shot-2011-11-16-at-11.02.23-AM-480x360.png

thunderkyss
10-24-2013, 05:14 PM
My original post above was completely buried by a lot of Colts talk so maybe it was missed. Elevator Up to Buried Post (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2237431&postcount=130)

We have little dead money but we weren't able to sign any impact players either. The only "impact" player we signed was Reed. Fail. All the players you are listing were drafted/signed by...Smith.

I'm not saying the Texans are a good team. I'm open to any argument that makes sense. Saying the Texans wasted draft picks, saying Merci & Brooks aren't producing, saying Antonio's been here a year too long & we haven't got a legit replacement for him anywhere near our roster.... I'll listen.

But to say we mismanaged the cap because we've got 9 probowlers on our team??????

C'mon man.

Texian
10-24-2013, 07:10 PM
But to say we mismanaged the cap because we've got 9 probowlers on our team??????

C'mon man.

For four years in a row the Texans have begun the new league year without enough money to pay for their minimum financial obligations, mainly the 53 man roster and the 8 player practice squad. Some people (me) say that is salary cap mismanagement. Some people (me) say this is a big part of the reason for The Texans demise. As of today the results, 2-5, support my theory. This is what I predicted 2 years ago. It's not rocket science, it's simple math. The Texans are on course to repeat the same pattern of behavior and operations in 2014 and as a result if carried out 2014 will be worse than 2013.

thunderkyss
10-24-2013, 07:29 PM
For four years in a row the Texans have begun the new league year without enough money to pay for their minimum financial obligations, mainly the 53 man roster and the 8 player practice squad. Some people (me) say that is salary cap mismanagement. Some people (me) say this is a big part of the reason for The Texans demise. As of today the results, 2-5, support my theory. This is what I predicted 2 years ago. It's not rocket science, it's simple math. The Texans are on course to repeat the same pattern of behavior and operations in 2014 and as a result if carried out 2014 will be worse than 2013.

So if by some miracle we finish 9-7 qualifying for a play-off spot, would that mean you were wrong? Or does it take a 10-6 season to prove you're wrong?

If Schaub had thrown 25 TDs & 2 INTs to now, we could very well be 6-1 right now, with the same salary cap issues.

If the defense played disciplined defense, we could be 3-4, maybe 4-4 same salary cap issue.

The Texans have got problems, but so far it does not look like a salary cap issue, it looks more like a coaching issue.

bckey
10-24-2013, 07:41 PM
With Indy the lead dog pulling the sled again, the Texans are back to the usual view the rest of the pack has. Obviously the Smithiak baby step, incremental improvement, overly cautious "right way" approach isn't "the difference between mediocrity and greatness". It IS mediocrity.

Pretty much sums it up.

Texian
10-24-2013, 07:53 PM
So if by some miracle we finish 9-7 qualifying for a play-off spot, would that mean you were wrong? Or does it take a 10-6 season to prove you're wrong?

If Schaub had thrown 25 TDs & 2 INTs to now, we could very well be 6-1 right now, with the same salary cap issues.

If the defense played disciplined defense, we could be 3-4, maybe 4-4 same salary cap issue.

The Texans have got problems, but so far it does not look like a salary cap issue, it looks more like a coaching issue.

A lot if's there, I made my first prediction in Nov 2010 that Colts would be back in control of the division in 2013 if the Texans did not change their operations and pattern of behavior. I reiterated my position even stronger in January 2011. My outlook was the Texans would start to decline this year. This actually happened last year Dec 2012. I'll will consider my outlook wrong if the Texans continue with their current Business Operating Model and still win the division in 2013 and 2014. My predictions were based on a failed business model and nothing to do with X and Os. If the Texans were a stock I gave them a sell recommendation.

thunderkyss
10-24-2013, 08:00 PM
A lot if's there, I made my first prediction in Nov 2010 that Colts would be back in control of the division in 2013 if the Texans did not change their operations and pattern of behavior. I reiterated my position even stronger in January 2011. My outlook was the Texans would start to decline this year. This actually happened last year Dec 2012. I'll will consider my outlook wrong if the Texans continue with their current Business Operating Model and still win the division in 2013 and 2014. My predictions were based on a failed business model and nothing to do with X and Os. If the Texans were a stock I gave them a sell recommendation.

So the cap mismanagement started to affect us in December 2012?

How are you going to sell that? The recurring LisFranc makes more sense.

eriadoc
10-24-2013, 08:22 PM
So the cap mismanagement started to affect us in December 2012?

How are you going to sell that? The recurring LisFranc makes more sense.

There's no one thing, of course. But the team failed to properly plan to replace Winston, Ryans, Brisiel, Quin, etc. They have done little to nothing in preparation for the replacement of Schaub, unless you actually believe that they believe Keenum is the guy. They didn't prepare for the replacement of Leach, even. You could argue that Casey was a move in a different direction, but then they didn't even use him to his strengths. The best year Foster had rushing was with Leach. They did nothing to address the WR position until it was so blatantly obvious to soccer fans in Europe that AJ needed help.

The areas they have worked to address and prepare for replacement have been TE, DL, and OLB. Those efforts have been met with varying degrees of success, same as any other team. But they at least gave it an honest effort. I do not consider Newton an honest effort, for example. Their replacement plan for Ryans was ... Bradie James? Tim Dobbins? Yeah. So yeah, there's some cap mismanagement helping out the Lisfranc issue, compounded by the fact that the Texans put all their eggs in the Schaub basket, which plenty of people said was dumb the day the extension was signed.

There's plenty of hindsight to be taken advantage of, but there are also decisions that were roundly criticized when they happened. So either the critics are freakin' geniuses or the decision really was that apparent (Ed Reed, for example).

Texian
10-24-2013, 08:45 PM
So the cap mismanagement started to affect us in December 2012?

How are you going to sell that? The recurring LisFranc makes more sense.

Here is how the salary cap mismanagement affected the Texans. Because the Texans started each year with no money to spend they were forced to fill out the roster and replace all players lost to FA with rookie and vet minimums. The Texans could not afford to sign any $2, $3 $4 mil a year FAs while other teams were able to do just that, 3-4-5 of those type players every year. After repeating this for 2-3 years other teams got much better but the Texans are not, they're still treading water, each year, every year.

Compound this by the number of players released, traded or lost to FA and their value never replaced along with some poor to average drafts and you get the results you now see on Sundays.

thunderkyss
10-24-2013, 09:29 PM
There's plenty of hindsight to be taken advantage of, but there are also decisions that were roundly criticized when they happened. So either the critics are freakin' geniuses or the decision really was that apparent (Ed Reed, for example).

I'm not saying the F.O. is without fault.

thunderkyss
10-24-2013, 09:37 PM
Here is how the salary cap mismanagement affected the Texans.

Ok. You said the Texans mismanaged the cap, borrowing future dollars to get under the cap.

http://overthecap.com/teamcap.php?Team=Texans&Year=2013

Tell me specifically where that borrowed money is hurting us. Is it the extra $5M from Andre's pro-rated bonus?

dalemurphy
10-25-2013, 03:55 AM
Here is how the salary cap mismanagement affected the Texans. Because the Texans started each year with no money to spend they were forced to fill out the roster and replace all players lost to FA with rookie and vet minimums. The Texans could not afford to sign any $2, $3 $4 mil a year FAs while other teams were able to do just that, 3-4-5 of those type players every year. After repeating this for 2-3 years other teams got much better but the Texans are not, they're still treading water, each year, every year.

Compound this by the number of players released, traded or lost to FA and their value never replaced along with some poor to average drafts and you get the results you now see on Sundays.


Winston isn't exactly tearing up the league... I think he was removed fairly timely... no?

K.Walter- Hopkins
Bryant Johnson- Posey

Brisiel- Brandon Brooks (you aren't happy with Brooks at 24 on a tiny deal for the next 3 years, instead of 30+ year old Brisiel for a $20 million deal?

Watt- whomever you plug in

KJackson- D. Robinsion and his $50 million dollar deal by Atlanta

Swearing for Pollard (yet to know, but I'm good with it)

Mercilus for Barwin- I'm seeing good stuff from Mercilus... Pretty sure most people weren't Barwin fans around here.


I'm just not seeing this loss of talent you are talking about. I'm seeing a team underperform and play sloppy football. This is from a big Kubiak fan...

The Texans, have been money in the first round of every draft since 2007... Mercilus is still a question mark, perhaps... But, you will be hard-pressed to compete with the list of: D.Brown, Cushing, KJackson, Watt, Mercilus, and Hopkins- especially accounting for where they were taken.

Show me some drafts from teams you think are doing so much better than the Texans... I bet you have to do quite a bit of hunting to find a couple to defend.

The Texans could have chosen to spend on FA this year. It was a decision, based on not mortgaging the future and with an eye on some big re-signings the next two years, that was made. The cap is very manageable. Perhaps you don't like the decisions they are making and their unwillingness to "go for it"... But, the cap is managed in a way where they could, if they chose to.

Scooter
10-25-2013, 04:40 AM
Here is how the salary cap mismanagement affected the Texans. Because the Texans started each year with no money to spend they were forced to fill out the roster and replace all players lost to FA with rookie and vet minimums. The Texans could not afford to sign any $2, $3 $4 mil a year FAs while other teams were able to do just that, 3-4-5 of those type players every year. After repeating this for 2-3 years other teams got much better but the Texans are not, they're still treading water, each year, every year.

Compound this by the number of players released, traded or lost to FA and their value never replaced along with some poor to average drafts and you get the results you now see on Sundays.

and where does the money come from to pay these free agents that we lose? it's not as if we're breaking records with our contracts either (until watt), many think we actually got several guys cheap compared to what they would've gotten on the market.

we dont have enough money to pay free agents because we're good at keeping our own. but we cant keep our own because we dont have any money. our own want so much money because we've drafted and coached up players too well. that is a quandary.

Texanmike02
10-25-2013, 08:06 AM
A lot if's there, I made my first prediction in Nov 2010 that Colts would be back in control of the division in 2013 if the Texans did not change their operations and pattern of behavior. I reiterated my position even stronger in January 2011. My outlook was the Texans would start to decline this year. This actually happened last year Dec 2012. I'll will consider my outlook wrong if the Texans continue with their current Business Operating Model and still win the division in 2013 and 2014. My predictions were based on a failed business model and nothing to do with X and Os. If the Texans were a stock I gave them a sell recommendation.

You're a genius!!!!

Or not so much. If you are going to assert expertise because your prediction has "come to fruition" then explain why you chose the Colts.

I'm going to go aheand and call your entire theory and your 'self-verifying prophecy' crap. Your prediction was very specific but your reasons and verification of them are all very general. The truth is that this team has a QB that suffered an injury and seems unable to overcome the limitation that has resulted from that injury. In a year as deep at QB talent as any I can remember we need to draft a QB. If this is a down year, so be it but all of this crap about the buisness model you're spouting is crap.

Mike

Texian
10-25-2013, 08:58 AM
Winston isn't exactly tearing up the league... I think he was removed fairly timely... no?

[/b]K.Walter- Hopkins
Bryant Johnson- Posey[/b]

Brisiel- Brandon Brooks (you aren't happy with Brooks at 24 on a tiny deal for the next 3 years, instead of 30+ year old Brisiel for a $20 million deal?

Watt- whomever you plug in

KJackson- D. Robinsion and his $50 million dollar deal by Atlanta

Swearing for Pollard (yet to know, but I'm good with it)

Mercilus for Barwin- I'm seeing good stuff from Mercilus... Pretty sure most people weren't Barwin fans around here.


I'm just not seeing this loss of talent you are talking about. I'm seeing a team underperform and play sloppy football. This is from a big Kubiak fan...

The Texans, have been money in the first round of every draft since 2007... Mercilus is still a question mark, perhaps... But, you will be hard-pressed to compete with the list of: D.Brown, Cushing, KJackson, Watt, Mercilus, and Hopkins- especially accounting for where they were taken.

Show me some drafts from teams you think are doing so much better than the Texans... I bet you have to do quite a bit of hunting to find a couple to defend.

The Texans could have chosen to spend on FA this year. It was a decision, based on not mortgaging the future and with an eye on some big re-signings the next two years, that was made. The cap is very manageable. Perhaps you don't like the decisions they are making and their unwillingness to "go for it"... But, the cap is managed in a way where they could, if they chose to.

Newton better than Winston? Really? Foster hasn't run right since Winston left.
Walter avg 40-60 catches per year, Jones 30-50 tell me again how the Texans have replaced those. Posey has 12 catchesin 2 yrs?
Say I agree 1st rd gets a B, Rds 2-7 get a C-, D.
Find another draft? Throw a dart, pick a team.
Not mortgaging the Future this year? AAHHH but they did. AJ restructured. This is not rocket science, THE TEXANS did NOT have enough money to complete a 53 man roster, FAILED BUSINESS MODEL for the last 4 years.

Players lost and not replaced with equal or better talent mainly because there was no money.

Williams, Winston, Brisel, Ryans, Jones, Leach, Vickers, Dreessen, Quin, Walter,Casey, Barwin - Lot of players off a playoff team, almost half a team, almost half the # of your EXCUSES. Today I am RIGHT and you're WRONG! Let's continue when this discussion when the Texans are #1 in the division.

Texian
10-25-2013, 09:07 AM
and where does the money come from to pay these free agents that we lose?

we dont have enough money to pay free agents because we're good at keeping our own.

Good question, Mario leaves and his $18 million drops off the books and yet the Texans are only able to start the new year $3 million under the cap. And yet some people call this good cap management.

Williams, Winston, Brisel, Ryans, Jones, Leach, Vickers, Dreessen, Quin, Walter,Casey, Barwin vs Brown, Schaub and Cushing. Good at keeping our own? Really?

Texian
10-25-2013, 09:22 AM
You're a genius!!!!

Or not so much. If you are going to assert expertise because your prediction has "come to fruition" then explain why you chose the Colts.

I'm going to go aheand and call your entire theory and your 'self-verifying prophecy' crap. Your prediction was very specific but your reasons and verification of them are all very general. The truth is that this team has a QB that suffered an injury and seems unable to overcome the limitation that has resulted from that injury. In a year as deep at QB talent as any I can remember we need to draft a QB. If this is a down year, so be it but all of this crap about the buisness model you're spouting is crap.

Mike

NO I'm not a Genius. It's called simple math, basic analysis and OBJECTIVITY. What it is not is DENIAL, EXCUSES, Wishful Thinking, Wanting and Hoping.

You can call my diagnosis crap, BS, Bovine Manure, Puke or anything else you want to call it. As of today, right now, this minute you also have to call it RIGHT!

The Colts? In a nutshell, New GM/HC, 2 above average drafts, OVER $40 million in available Salary Cap to SPEND this year. THAT'S A LOT OF GOOD FOOTBALL PLAYERS. They also have $40 million to start the 2014 season, THAT'S A LOT OF GOOD FOOTBALL PLAYERS. The Texans maybe $8 million, THAT IS NOT ENOUGH TO MEET MINIMUM FINANCIAL OBLIGATIONS. Next year The Colts will have an avg of $1.75 mil to spend per new player, the Texans < $500K per new player. The Colts will get better the Texans will NOT. This is simple math and basic analysis. NO Mensa minds required.

dalemurphy
10-25-2013, 09:30 AM
Good question, Mario leaves and his $18 million drops off the books and yet the Texans are only able to start the new year $3 million under the cap. And yet some people call this good cap management.

Williams, Winston, Brisel, Ryans, Jones, Leach, Vickers, Dreessen, Quin, Walter,Casey, Barwin vs Brown, Schaub and Cushing. Good at keeping our own? Really?

Well, to answer your Mario question, that was the year that the cap decreased close to $20 million.

Are you really arguing that we should have paid Mario $100 million? Briesel $20 million, Dreessen $9 million? We should've kept K. Walter? and Vickers?... You are complaining that we got rid of that huge Demeco contract and also got a 3rd and 4th round pick for him?

Umm, I'm sure glad you are not managing the cap!

Again, regarding cap management, the team is healthy- it could have easily signed bigger free agents. They could have kept Quin, Casey, Barwin. They have chosen to be disciplined and prepare for Watt and others, avoid dead money, and avoid mortgaging the future by giving huge signing bonuses to players and restructuring to the back end of the contracts in order to create room in the near term. Feel free to disagree with the methodology. However, it is not bad cap management. Unlike with the mess Casserly left these guys with, a GM with a more aggressive approach could take this team over and immediately do exactly what he wanted to- bring in a few big name free agents (or more)... turnover a significant portion of the team's veterans with little cap ramifications, and also have a couple extra compensatory draft picks- in addition to the normal, yearly allotment... not to mention the best defensive player in football...

And, if you are actually arguing, that you would rather have Kevin Walter than Hopkins, I'm not sure there is any point in debating talent with you. Of course, I doubt you believe that... you are just in attack mode- flailing criticisms wildly at the organization because you are disappointed and angry. I get it, though I wouldn't be angry about the Texans letting Walter go and drafting Hopkins.

NCTexan
10-25-2013, 09:44 AM
Williams, Winston, Brisel, Ryans, Jones, Leach, Vickers, Dreessen, Quin, Walter,Casey, Barwin - Lot of players off a playoff team, almost half a team, almost half the # of your EXCUSES. Today I am RIGHT and you're WRONG! Let's continue when this discussion when the Texans are #1 in the division.

Wait, you're arguing that Vickers is better than Jones? Walter better than Hopkins? Graham has shown to be capable in place of Dreessen. Casey was a waste here to be honest. We didn't use him in a way that was worth as much as he got paid in Philly. Barwin was meh last year and not worth the money paid, Mercilus is doing fine in his place.

You're just throwing out every name.

Texian
10-25-2013, 09:52 AM
You're just throwing out every name.

And you're throwing out every EXCUSE! But Jones is not better than Leach, ask Arian. Actually Walter was a #3 WR not a #2 and Hopkins maybe better than Walter but the numbers haven't said so and Walters is better than Posey, Martin, Jean and all other WRs on the roster. BOTTOM LINE Texans still have not replaced the # of Walter catches. Graham is no where close to being the blocking TE that Dreessen was. Ask Arian. In your mind Casey was a waste, maybe so but the BOTTOM LINE is the Texans have not replaced his production. Mercilus was Mario's replacement not Barwin. Barwin and Mercilus played together last year. What we have here is more DENIAL.

NCTexan
10-25-2013, 09:54 AM
ANd you're throwing out every EXCUSE!

I'm not making excuses for where the team is right now. It's unacceptable. I think we need some major changes. But to pretend every player we lost is better than their replacement is just wrong.

Texian
10-25-2013, 10:04 AM
Well, to answer your Mario question, that was the year that the cap decreased close to $20 million.

Are you really arguing that we should have paid Mario $100 million? Briesel $20 million, Dreessen $9 million? We should've kept K. Walter? and Vickers?... You are complaining that we got rid of that huge Demeco contract and also got a 3rd and 4th round pick for him?

Umm, I'm sure glad you are not managing the cap!

Again, regarding cap management, the team is healthy- it could have easily signed bigger free agents. They could have kept Quin, Casey, Barwin. They have chosen to be disciplined and prepare for Watt and others, avoid dead money, and avoid mortgaging the future by giving huge signing bonuses to players and restructuring to the back end of the contracts in order to create room in the near term. Feel free to disagree with the methodology. However, it is not bad cap management. Unlike with the mess Casserly left these guys with, a GM with a more aggressive approach could take this team over and immediately do exactly what he wanted to- bring in a few big name free agents (or more)... turnover a significant portion of the team's veterans with little cap ramifications, and also have a couple extra compensatory draft picks- in addition to the normal, yearly allotment... not to mention the best defensive player in football...

And, if you are actually arguing, that you would rather have Kevin Walter than Hopkins, I'm not sure there is any point in debating talent with you. Of course, I doubt you believe that... you are just in attack mode- flailing criticisms wildly at the organization because you are disappointed and angry. I get it, though I wouldn't be angry about the Texans letting Walter go and drafting Hopkins.

You can make all the excuses you want to but that doesn't change the fact that next year, like this year the Colts will have an average of $1,750,000 to spend on new players and the Texans will have less than $500,000. Simply put , with those numbers YOU CAN'T COMPETE.

Texian
10-25-2013, 10:06 AM
I'm not making excuses for where the team is right now. It's unacceptable. I think we need some major changes. But to pretend every player we lost is better than their replacement is just wrong.

The point that your missing is many of those players who were starters haven't been replaced. 2-5 record suggests that I am RIGHT and you're WRONG!

Texanmike02
10-25-2013, 10:22 AM
NO I'm not a Genius. It's called simple math, basic analysis and OBJECTIVITY. What it is not is DENIAL, EXCUSES, Wishful Thinking, Wanting and Hoping.

You can call my diagnosis crap, BS, Bovine Manure, Puke or anything else you want to call it. As of today, right now, this minute you also have to call it RIGHT!

The Colts? In a nutshell, New GM/HC, 2 above average drafts, OVER $40 million in available Salary Cap to SPEND this year. THAT'S A LOT OF GOOD FOOTBALL PLAYERS. They also have $40 million to start the 2014 season, THAT'S A LOT OF GOOD FOOTBALL PLAYERS. The Texans maybe $8 million, THAT IS NOT ENOUGH TO MEET MINIMUM FINANCIAL OBLIGATIONS. Next year The Colts will have an avg of $1.75 mil to spend per new player, the Texans < $500K per new player. The Colts will get better the Texans will NOT. This is simple math and basic analysis. NO Mensa minds required.

Toot your horn a little bit more please.

You said that back in 2010 you said the Colts would control the division. Polian was still the GM and Caldwell was the Coach. Did you know they would fire the coach after the next season? Did you know it was Pagano they would hire?

Your analysis is fundamentally flawed. The Texans don't need to improve across the board, they need to improve at the QB, RG, RT, ILB and S positions. They will need depth at the RB spot as well. Fix the QB and the RG/RT are less of a problem. Do you want them to go out and sign free agents?

I would even argue that our coach is the problem before I would argue that we suffer a talent deficiency. Line us up position by position and tell me where the Colts have an advantage talent wise. QB. SS. RG/RT. Maybe OLB. Oh yeah, they have a better kicker.

The reason this team is in this hole has nothing to do with talent or cap management, it has to do with coaching. It is that boot leg and the fact that a team can sit on that out route over and over. It has to do with the fact that our offense is no longer potent and Wade's defense will suffer by not being able to gamble as much. But talent wise? Give me a break.

But don't let an analytical exercise like that get in the way of a good argument.

Mike

dalemurphy
10-25-2013, 10:28 AM
The point that your missing is many of those players who were starters haven't been replaced. 2-5 record suggests that I am RIGHT and you're WRONG!

Right about what? Am I arguing that the team is off to a good start?

The conclusion that if the team is 2-5 neccessarily means that the talent is poor, the cap is mismanaged, and the coaching stinks is absurd. There can be all kinds of reasons for the bad start. By the way, I'm not making excuses. I am suggesting that we discuss the issues with some common sense, maturity, and concern for the truth- instead of simply throwing a temper tantrum. I am very interested in why the team is failing. Though, I am looking for clarity and thoughts from others, which is why I am on this board and involved in these discussions. Otherwise, I would be on houstontexans.com and looking for threads titled "Texans Suck... Nuff said" or some other moronic posts from 19 year-olds who never played football, don't understand the game, and have zero idea what they are talking about.

You don't really believe the Texans would be a better team with Kevin Walter, Vickers, etc... be honest.

Regarding Winston, I never said Newton was better. Newton is a major issue. I am suggesting that it was a good move to cut Winston loose two years ago from his $25 million deal. His poor showing in KC and disinterest in him around the league illustrate that it was wise. The Texans made a big mistake in relying on Newton this year. They should have added another reliable tackle- which they whiffed on when they drafted a hobbled Brennan Williams. That has turned out to be a gamble that has snowballed into big problems on the field... combine that with Kubiak's stubbornness to play Newton over Harris in passing situations like the 4th quarter vs. KC, and I see plenty of costly mistakes.

But, no, I'm not going to criticize the organization for cutting Winston and Kevin Walter. come on!

Ole Miss Texan
10-25-2013, 10:51 AM
Andre Johnson
Duane Brown
Chris Meyers
Arian Foster
Owen Daniels
Brian Cushing

Those are all TEXAN players that are arguably #1/2/3 at their respective positions in the entire NFL that we re-signed to keep on the team. And they're contracts reflect that as well.

Matt Schaub is looking like a bad extension that will likely hurt this team significantly.

Antonio Smith is a better player than most fans admit but he's probably not playing up to his contract.

Johnathan Joseph
Danieal Manning - both excellent additions to a decrepit secondary even with play not as good as year one.

Demeco was a GREAT LB but after injury was being paid too much with not being an every down back anymore. Awesome trade to rid us of contract and get draft pick.

I completely support the other moves (or no action) Smith has made regarding Winston, Jacoby, Brisiel, Walter, Barwin, Leech when it comes to managing our cap.

Jury is still out on Ed Reed, now that he's back in playing shape he has to step up his game.

otisbean
10-25-2013, 10:55 AM
With regards to the Colts, they got lucky plain and simple. A stroke of bad luck, the Manning injury, happened to them a the best possible time, a year when there were 2 elite QBs available at the top of the draft. They cut Manning, thus creating cap space, and we're able to draft a stud QB. That doesn't exactly amount to some genius cap management. How good would they be now if the Manning injury occurred the year Gabbert was the top QB, would they look so smart then?

I believe we are 2-5 because Schaub is broken. He's not the player he used to be and his turn overs have killed us. It's not all on him, but he's the biggest issue this year. We have plenty of other contributors to our suckitude, but you cannot win in the NFL if you turn the ball over as much as we have

Texian
10-25-2013, 11:07 AM
Toot your horn a little bit more please.

You said that back in 2010 you said the Colts would control the division. Polian was still the GM and Caldwell was the Coach. Did you know they would fire the coach after the next season? Did you know it was Pagano they would hire?

Your analysis is fundamentally flawed. The Texans don't need to improve across the board, they need to improve at the QB, RG, RT, ILB and S positions. They will need depth at the RB spot as well. Fix the QB and the RG/RT are less of a problem. Do you want them to go out and sign free agents?

I would even argue that our coach is the problem before I would argue that we suffer a talent deficiency. Line us up position by position and tell me where the Colts have an advantage talent wise. QB. SS. RG/RT. Maybe OLB. Oh yeah, they have a better kicker.

The reason this team is in this hole has nothing to do with talent or cap management, it has to do with coaching. It is that boot leg and the fact that a team can sit on that out route over and over. It has to do with the fact that our offense is no longer potent and Wade's defense will suffer by not being able to gamble as much. But talent wise? Give me a break.

But don't let an analytical exercise like that get in the way of a good argument.

Mike

What part of over the last 4 years The Texans have had less than Vet Minimum to spend on players to fill out and complete their 53 man roster do you not understand? What part of this do find that makes a good plan to build a more competitive team? The Texans could just easily be 0-6. I guess the Texans could go 0-16 and you would still wouldn't be able to admit that you just might be wrong.

I knew the absence of Peyton Manning and the departure of Jeff Fisher would make the Texans appear better because the division was much weaker. Contrary to what you believe it didn't take a GENIUS to know the Colts w/o Manning and losing enough games for the 1st pick would dump 35 yr old Manning and pick Luck. I knew with their respective changes and responsible cleaning up of their salary cap positions would result in them getting better. I new that teams with close to $40 million to spend would get considerably better and teams with < $10 mil would not. You make think this is flawed thinking but so far it has been right on the money.

Runner
10-25-2013, 11:13 AM
The conclusion that if the team is 2-5 neccessarily means that the talent is poor, the cap is mismanaged, and the coaching stinks is absurd. There can be all kinds of reasons for the bad start.


I think it is absurd to observe the Texans current state and look for a magic "other" reason for it while absolving the GM, coaching, and players of blame.

On another matter, I've seen you refer in several posts to the Texans "bad start". How do you define "start" - the first eight games of the season, with the last eight games being the end? Seeing as the Texans have played seven of sixteen games - 44% - I consider them in the middle part of their season. This is a serious question, because calling 2-5 a bad start is wordsmithing to minimize the dire straights in which the Texans find themselves. They don't have a great number of games left to recover.

Texian
10-25-2013, 11:14 AM
You don't really believe the Texans would be a better team with Kevin Walter, Vickers, etc... be honest.

But, no, I'm not going to criticize the organization for cutting Winston and Kevin Walter. come on!

To be honest, the facts say the The Texans were a better a team and they were. It is only the many excuses (absence any facts) trying to justify that they weren't.

Criticize the organization, of course you're not!

Texian
10-25-2013, 11:16 AM
On another matter, I've seen you refer in several posts to the Texans "bad start". How do you define "start" - the first eight games of the season, with the last eight games being the end? Seeing as the Texans have played seven of sixteen games - 44% - I consider them in the middle part of their season. This is a serious question, because calling 2-5 a bad start is wordsmithing to minimize the dire straights in which the Texans find themselves. They don't have a great number of games left to recover.

Can we consider that the bad start began in December of last year?

Texian
10-25-2013, 11:21 AM
Andre Johnson
Duane Brown
Chris Meyers
Arian Foster
Owen Daniels
Brian Cushing




Now tell us all about the bottom 40 players on that 53 man roster.

robroy72
10-25-2013, 11:49 AM
Can we consider that the bad start began in December of last year?

You're absolutely right. We've seen glimpses of the good play pre-December (2nd half in SD, for example) but this has been a slippery slope for a long time.

eriadoc
10-25-2013, 12:03 PM
Regarding Winston, I never said Newton was better. Newton is a major issue. I am suggesting that it was a good move to cut Winston loose two years ago from his $25 million deal. His poor showing in KC and disinterest in him around the league illustrate that it was wise. The Texans made a big mistake in relying on Newton this year.

The only thing I'll throw out there in disagreement, and it shows itself in the Ryans situation as well, is it was not wise to cut Winston if they didn't have a replacement plan already in place. Waiting two years to draft Williams means they screwed up, regardless how the pick turned out. Relying on the Butler/Newton tandem when neither of them had outplayed Winston was a poor replacement plan. That all goes into the salary cap discussion.

And they replaced Ryans with Bradie James, so there's not much to argue there.

Texian
10-25-2013, 12:11 PM
You're absolutely right. We've seen glimpses of the good play pre-December (2nd half in SD, for example) but this has been a slippery slope for a long time.

Yes Sir, that flickering light that has been seen is not a bulb getting ready to burn bright but instead is a bulb that is burning out.

infantrycak
10-25-2013, 12:57 PM
Now tell us all about the bottom 40 players on that 53 man roster.

OK. The Texans have 11 vets on significant contracts. There are 27 players on their rookie contracts. The remainder are basically special teamers who don't have a significant role other than Mays and Greg Jones. Jones plays a low play position - money is not what constrained the Texans. Every team carries guys like Weeks as LS and 4th string RBs at minimal contracts along with guys like Mack who are only expected to play ST.

Rey
10-25-2013, 01:11 PM
The only thing I'll throw out there in disagreement, and it shows itself in the Ryans situation as well, is it was not wise to cut Winston if they didn't have a replacement plan already in place. Waiting two years to draft Williams means they screwed up, regardless how the pick turned out. Relying on the Butler/Newton tandem when neither of them had outplayed Winston was a poor replacement plan. That all goes into the salary cap discussion.

And they replaced Ryans with Bradie James, so there's not much to argue there.

I was not a huge Winston Fan, but in hindsight he was leaps and bounds better than anything we have now. Not even close.

There we're the occasional whiffs, but for the most part he'd block him man in pass pro and he was good in run blocking.

Only thing I can think of is that maybe the Texans felt like he was in a decline .

Blake
10-25-2013, 01:20 PM
Not sure why Rick is getting so much negativity. He has helped build a solid team. Not his fault Matt is a dud this year. I would have tried to keep Glover and Barwin and passed on Reed because I feel that you dont get rid of young talent.

I also think he could have done a better job at fixing the RT spot, but he decided to draft a guy who was questionable due to an injury...

The reason that the window has closed or is closing is because our QB has failed us and his team. Our only hope is Keenum sparking a fire. If that fails I think we see a new GM, who hires his head coach who drafts his starting QB.

Texanmike02
10-25-2013, 01:20 PM
What part of over the last 4 years The Texans have had less than Vet Minimum to spend on players to fill out and complete their 53 man roster do you not understand? What part of this do find that makes a good plan to build a more competitive team? The Texans could just easily be 0-6. I guess the Texans could go 0-16 and you would still wouldn't be able to admit that you just might be wrong.

The Texans are a team that lacks discipline, not talent. The same team you are telling me is in such horrible shape just went into Arrowhead stadium with an in drafted QB making his first start and played the undefeated chiefs to basically a draw. Are you telling me that this team lacks talent?

This team lacks discipline.

knew the absence of Peyton Manning and the departure of Jeff Fisher would make the Texans appear better because the division was much weaker. Contrary to what you believe it didn't take a GENIUS to know the Colts w/o Manning and losing enough games for the 1st pick would dump 35 yr old Manning and pick Luck. I knew with their respective changes and responsible cleaning up of their salary cap positions would result in them getting better. I new that teams with close to $40 million to spend would get considerably better and teams with < $10 mil would not. You make think this is flawed thinking but so far it has been right on the money.

LOL. So basically because Luck is an unbelievable talent you are the smartest guy in the room.


Mike

houstonspartan
10-25-2013, 01:26 PM
Ummmm....

Irsay decided to step out of his comfort zone and fire the Polian's. He took a chance and hired an unknown Grigson. Taking chances like this in addition to hitting on Luck are the reason the colts have passed the Texans in 2 yrs.

It's time for the Texans to take that step back for a couple of yrs and hire a new regime to begin a minor rebuild. This starts with finding the QB of the future and I dont want Rick/Gary making those choices.

If BoB had made the difficult decision like the Colts did after the 2009 season, like Irsay did with the Polian's, t and made the right hire, like the Colts did in hiring Grigson. The Texans would be in a much better place today. IMHO

Of course that was to traumatic for BoB to make a move like that at the time. Not that as you said previouly BoB owes the fanbase anything, you know like BoB doing everything in his power to put the best product possible on the field.

Yep. I have long said that if we'd fired Kubiak after 2010 - as would have been fair, given his performance - right now we could be in the third year of of new coach, new team, etc. and possibly looking forward to dominating teams.

Instead, we're behind the curve and trying to play catch up - again.

otisbean
10-25-2013, 01:29 PM
I was not a huge Winston Fan, but in hindsight he was leaps and bounds better than anything we have now. Not even close.

There we're the occasional whiffs, but for the most part he'd block him man in pass pro and he was good in run blocking.

Only thing I can think of is that maybe the Texans felt like he was in a decline .

Your last line is spot on from what I heard from a friend in the organization. There was solid concern about future performance decline in the near future

dream_team
10-25-2013, 01:53 PM
The only thing I'll throw out there in disagreement, and it shows itself in the Ryans situation as well, is it was not wise to cut Winston if they didn't have a replacement plan already in place. Waiting two years to draft Williams means they screwed up, regardless how the pick turned out. Relying on the Butler/Newton tandem when neither of them had outplayed Winston was a poor replacement plan. That all goes into the salary cap discussion.

And they replaced Ryans with Bradie James, so there's not much to argue there.

I don't know about you, but I was high on Butler. Check old forum posts and I know I wasn't the only one. At the time, I felt for the amount of money we'd save, and the minimal amount of production we'd lose, cutting Winston was the right move. BTW, it's not like he's been playing well since he left either.

dream_team
10-25-2013, 01:58 PM
Yep. I have long said that if we'd fired Kubiak after 2010 - as would have been fair, given his performance - right now we could be in the third year of of new coach, new team, etc. and possibly looking forward to dominating teams.

Instead, we're behind the curve and trying to play catch up - again.

Or possibly stinking it up, have yet to make playoffs, currently talking about how we need to get rid of this new coach, and bitching about how we drafted Prince Amukamara over JJ Watt. You never know. There are mostly coach failures than successes.

dalemurphy
10-25-2013, 02:06 PM
The only thing I'll throw out there in disagreement, and it shows itself in the Ryans situation as well, is it was not wise to cut Winston if they didn't have a replacement plan already in place. Waiting two years to draft Williams means they screwed up, regardless how the pick turned out. Relying on the Butler/Newton tandem when neither of them had outplayed Winston was a poor replacement plan. That all goes into the salary cap discussion.

And they replaced Ryans with Bradie James, so there's not much to argue there.

I get what you are saying. However, it's not as if Winston went on to play solid football the next few years... He was done. So, I give the team credit for making that call when they did. Then, I am critical of the fact that they have failed to patch up the tackle position. They weren't replacing an all-pro. They were replacing a borderline NFL tackle (at the point of his release). So, good recognition on Winston and good, tough decision. But, then, come on! Coach someone up or bring in a veteran presence to sure the spot up.

dalemurphy
10-25-2013, 02:16 PM
To be honest, the facts say the The Texans were a better a team and they were. It is only the many excuses (absence any facts) trying to justify that they weren't.

Criticize the organization, of course you're not!

What do you mean? I spent two paragraphs criticizing the organization.

When my car won't start, I don't send it to the junkyard to be demolished. I take it to the mechanic. He performs diagnostics and determines what repairs need to be made and what parts are in good working order. Your methodology would be to treat this Texan team as if it is in the same situation as Tampa Bay... or the Texan team in 2005. Blow it up and start over! I am more interested in fixing what is broken and keeping what is working. Denying that anything is working when all of you are clearly disappointed with the season so far (meaning you expected the team to have a good season- meaning you agreed that there was a lot working on this team) is ironic, to say the least.


Criticisms of the organization:

1. Head coach has done a poor job this year. He and Wade are over their heads against elite coaches- clearly illustrated last year vs. New England.

2. Marciano is a mess. As his Kubiak's tendency, he is slow to move on from members of his coaching staff.

3. They should've effectively addressed RT.

4. Ed Reed gamble is looking pretty foolish right now.

5. Wade Phillips is too predictable with man coverage.

6. Kubiak's playcalling tends to become more predictable late in the game, when the game is in doubt.

7. Smith's gamble on Montgomery was poor.

... there's more, but I have to go.


I still believe the team plays for Kubiak... It is young, talented, and in position to be good for a long time if it is not mismanaged.

Texian
10-25-2013, 02:23 PM
I was not a huge Winston Fan, but in hindsight he was leaps and bounds better than anything we have now. Not even close.

There we're the occasional whiffs, but for the most part he'd block him man in pass pro and he was good in run blocking.

Only thing I can think of is that maybe the Texans felt like he was in a decline .

Your last line is spot on from what I heard from a friend in the organization. There was solid concern about future performance decline in the near future

The primary reason why Winston was released when he was is because he offered the Texans the most Salary Cap space which the Texans were in desperate need of. Winston gave up 6 sacks during the year without any help but nobody did a better job run blocking and opening up more holes for Foster than Winston. Winston's departure was the beginning of Foster's decline. Since Winston's departure to this day the Texans can not run to the right or in the Red Zone.

Ole Miss Texan
10-25-2013, 02:29 PM
Now tell us all about the bottom 40 players on that 53 man roster.

Lol I was responding to the conversation surrounding re-signing out players that deserve it and how that has an immediate effect to our cap situation. I can't put it any other way than to say we have a lot of really good players. Those players get paid handsomely. That's the byproduct of them playing so well. The ones were keeping are arguably in the top 3 in the nfl at their respective positions. This whole conversation is about our cap management and were always up against it now bc we have a crap ton of good players.

We didn't splurge during the uncapped season bc they new we needed to re-sign our own players over the next few years. That's managing the cap, we're against the cap ... That's very different from being in cap hell.

Scooter
10-25-2013, 02:34 PM
i'm not getting this discussion at all. we have what many consider(ed) to be the most overall talented team in the league. we sent 8 players to the probowl last season, including multiple all-pro's. we have cap-friendly deals in place, and each year can move money around or drop a player without hurting us. this season some contracts have tightened our belt a bit, but some big ones (antonio, wade smith, schaub) can be removed for significant savings. those three mentioned we've addressed with young players. the trouble is your potential players may not be as good as your high payed vets, or they might exceed the vet. case looks better than schaub, jones and wade are about a push, and crick will be a step down from antonio. what Texian keeps harping on is being able to add 2mil-5mil contracts ... those are dead money deals, players who arent part of your core and potential cuts (especially at the bottom of the team like texian wants), but make enough money to cause problems.

what's hurting us more than anything is we've had a run of players who havent panned out at vital positions. OLB has reed, mercilus, montgomery, and williams - picks from each of the first four rounds who havent really worked. on the line we've added newton, jones, gardner, brooks, quess, and williams - picks all over the map with only brandon brooks going as planned. these two areas we've thrown our resources at but just cant land the winners and it's showing on the field.

thunderkyss
10-25-2013, 02:38 PM
Can we consider that the bad start began in December of last year?

Because total mismanagement of the salary cap bit us in the ass mid December.


Totally logical.

Texian
10-25-2013, 03:43 PM
Because total mismanagement of the salary cap bit us in the ass mid December.


Totally logical.

Yep, it was just a matter of time and that's when it began to rear it's ugly head. Actually the crack in the damn started around the middle of November. Those .500 and > teams have a way of doing that to the Texans most of the time.

eriadoc
10-25-2013, 04:03 PM
I was not a huge Winston Fan, but in hindsight he was leaps and bounds better than anything we have now. Not even close.

Not hindsight. Remember this thread (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1822418&highlight=Winston#post1822418)? Winston was playing well his last season here. There was some Pro Bowl chatter. He had his limitations, but they were the sort of limitations that most above average but not elite tackles have.

I don't know about you, but I was high on Butler. Check old forum posts and I know I wasn't the only one. At the time, I felt for the amount of money we'd save, and the minimal amount of production we'd lose, cutting Winston was the right move. BTW, it's not like he's been playing well since he left either.

I never felt like Butler was an adequate replacement plan. I gave Newton the benefit of the doubt early on, since he was young, but neve rfelt good about him either. Here are some of my posts from the offseason/preseason after Winston was cut:

That's one way to look at it. Allow me to present the other side of the argument.

The team was a QB and maybe a WR away from being serious Super Bowl contenders this past season. They were a Jacoby Jones away from potentially moving on to the AFC Championship game even without that QB and WR (full strength AJ). Since then, the only personnel change to the team has been a net loss of players.

1.) Mario - let me get this out of the way first. I'm a big fan of Mario I was one of the few people cheering when they announced the night before the draft they were taking him. The guy caught a ton of unjustified flack while he was here and played well when he was healthy. WHEN HE WAS HEALTHY is why I'm perfectly OK with him moving on. You don't pay a guy 96mil for missing games every season and/or ineffectively playing through injury. I think we all suspected Mario would be gone, and I think the FO made the only choice they should have to maintain long term viability. Thank you Texans for not mortgaging the future on Mario.

2.) Schaub has missed significant time 3 of the 5 seasons he's been a Texan. TJ Yates is a possible replacement someday, but we all saw that he's not quite there yet. Just wanted to point out that they're still potentially a QB away from being a serious SB contender.

3.) WR - Jacoby sucks. I've been saying it for a long time, and my hatred for him as a player (not person) is pretty far from objective after the playoff game. He's still here. AJ is great WHEN HE'S HEALTHY. He's missed more games in the past 5 years than Matt Schaub. Maybe people don't realize or want to accept that; I don't know.

4.) Myers - glad he was re-signed, but I'm not buying the hype that's been put out there about him. He's had one really bad year, one really good year, and the rest has been solid. You didn't fire him after his really bad year, so don't blow smoke up my ass about his really good year. Make him do it again. You made Foster do it a second time, after all.

5.) Brisiel - not to be confused with a HOF guard or anything, but he's consistently beaten Caldwell, even coming back from a bad leg, twice. He's just a flat out better player than Caldwell. So saying they have his replacement on the roster is pretty disingenuous.

6.) Winston - occasional liability in pass protection, but if Butler is better, why didn't he beat out Winston for the job? Either he's not as good or Kubiak wasn't playing the better player. You decide which of those options you like best, I suppose. I hope he gets better than Winston this season, at any rate.

7.) Ryans - Everyone knew it was going to take 2 years to come back from that injury. He started playing his best football toward the end of last year, so they traded him away.

8.) Vickers, Allen, Dreessen, etc. - All of these guys filled roles that kept other players off the field. Casey didn't supplant Vickers as a blocker or Dreessen as a TE. Graham didn't supplant Dreessen as a TE. KJax couldn't keep Allen off the field. Brandon Harris never saw the field, despite being a 2nd round pick. McManis and his random contemporaries couldn't break through either. So again, either these players were the best options to help the team win, or the coaches were making bad decisions.

Any of these moves can be rationalized. Taken as a whole, however, they weaken the team. They may not weaken the business side of things, but that's not going to help the W-L column unless they use that money to bring real replacements in. There's still a draft left to go and they'll undoubtedly get a couple impact players. Let's hope it's enough. I have hope for Sharpton and Kareem Jackson, so that's a positive. Brooks Reed is going to be a very good player. But like I said above, the moves when taken as a whole are hard to rationalize away.

Also, while I have a ton of faith in Wade Phillips to put a top notch defense out there no matter what, Smithiak has earned no such trust from me. They've had way too many WTF moments in personnel for me to blindly trust that they know the best course of action.

But hey, I hope you sunshiners are right, since I rather enjoyed the first good season immensely. I'm just a little irritated that they seem intent on blasting my optimism since the season ended. And deep down, a little part of me knew they would. So no, the sky isn't falling, but it's hard to tell if those clouds rolling in are just an afternoon shower or a full blown hurricane. We'll see.

I just think some people are trying to convince themselves that Winston was worse than he is and the OL will be better off without him and Brisiel. If Caldwell was better than Brisiel, he would have beaten him out in one of the many opportunities he's gotten. If Butler was better than Winston, he would have been receiving the sort of playtime rotation that Caldwell was getting, or some sort of greater opportunity.

It's going to be an issue going forward. Luckily, the QB and RB will minimize the impact but when you get into tight spaces, that right side is going to come up short a lot more than Brisiel and Winston. JMO. We'll see.

As for the contract restructure/pay cut, I have my own question about it, relative to other offseason activity. Walter has not only played in most of the games since he started playing for the Texans (his 2nd year here, I think), but he's been a starter. Why would you ask a guy like Walter to take a pay cut and then make him the starter? I mean, I get that he makes a little too much money for what they want him to do, and they recognize that, and also they have a ton of other offseason considerations like Myers, Foster, and Duane Brown. But if a guy isn't producing like you want, teams most often just cut them. You don't generally see starters asked to take a pay cut and then remain as a starter. Now add to that line of thinking that they never even asked Winston to take a pay cut. They just cut him outright. He's a far better tackle than Walter is a WR in most fans' opinions (so, grain of salt and all that). But he was just unceremoniously cut loose. They didn't even try to get anything in return.

I think there's a little revisionist history going on these days.

I get what you are saying. However, it's not as if Winston went on to play solid football the next few years... He was done. So, I give the team credit for making that call when they did. Then, I am critical of the fact that they have failed to patch up the tackle position. They weren't replacing an all-pro. They were replacing a borderline NFL tackle (at the point of his release). So, good recognition on Winston and good, tough decision. But, then, come on! Coach someone up or bring in a veteran presence to sure the spot up.

You can't have a salary cap discussion without discussing the lack of ability to replace players. Otherwise, we could just all propose that they replace everyone with vet minimums. Winston was a better tackle than anyone the Texans had in the pipeline, and he was under contract. And in case everyone forgot, the Texans never even attempted to renegotiate his contract! They just outright cut him as a complete surprise. They gave us that BS rationale that they respected him too much to try and renegotiate his contract, while they forced Walter to take a pay cut and renegotiated AJ's contract. Guess that means they didn't respect the latter two players, huh?

That kind of crap is on Rick Smith. IF you're going to cut a solid player, you better damn sure have a replacement plan and a contingency plan or you run the risk of looking like a dumbass at the very least, and costing your team some wins very possibly.

otisbean
10-25-2013, 04:30 PM
The primary reason why Winston was released when he was is because he offered the Texans the most Salary Cap space which the Texans were in desperate need of. Winston gave up 6 sacks during the year without any help but nobody did a better job run blocking and opening up more holes for Foster than Winston. Winston's departure was the beginning of Foster's decline. Since Winston's departure to this day the Texans can not run to the right or in the Red Zone.

You're right there was significant cap savings but that's not the only reason. There were other factors that contributed to Winston's release

dalemurphy
10-25-2013, 05:07 PM
Not hindsight. Remember this thread (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1822418&highlight=Winston#post1822418)? Winston was playing well his last season here. There was some Pro Bowl chatter. He had his limitations, but they were the sort of limitations that most above average but not elite tackles have.



I never felt like Butler was an adequate replacement plan. I gave Newton the benefit of the doubt early on, since he was young, but neve rfelt good about him either. Here are some of my posts from the offseason/preseason after Winston was cut:







I think there's a little revisionist history going on these days.



You can't have a salary cap discussion without discussing the lack of ability to replace players. Otherwise, we could just all propose that they replace everyone with vet minimums. Winston was a better tackle than anyone the Texans had in the pipeline, and he was under contract. And in case everyone forgot, the Texans never even attempted to renegotiate his contract! They just outright cut him as a complete surprise. They gave us that BS rationale that they respected him too much to try and renegotiate his contract, while they forced Walter to take a pay cut and renegotiated AJ's contract. Guess that means they didn't respect the latter two players, huh?

That kind of crap is on Rick Smith. IF you're going to cut a solid player, you better damn sure have a replacement plan and a contingency plan or you run the risk of looking like a dumbass at the very least, and costing your team some wins very possibly.

I think they made tactical mistakes and counted on players they shouldn't have... I don't think they "had" to cut Winston because of the cap. And, I certainly know they could have spent some money this off-season on the right tackle position... They chose not to. It is not due to the cap. With A.Smith's, W. Smith's contracts and others, they had a ton of room to work with. They were content with Newton. OOPS!. It reminds me of the errors they made in 2009-10 in the secondary, particularly at the safety position.

eriadoc
10-25-2013, 07:07 PM
I think they made tactical mistakes and counted on players they shouldn't have... I don't think they "had" to cut Winston because of the cap.

Well, they certainly sold the story that it was because of the salary cap, so as far as I'm concerned, they've mismanaged the cap. Regardless what you think about any specific player's situation, there's a generality that applies. If you draft people and they are solid to good players, you have to either keep them (cap management commensurate with talent level) or properly plan to replace them before they are let go (also cap management commensurate with talent level). I don't think the Texans have done a good job on that.

Rey
10-25-2013, 08:10 PM
Not hindsight. Remember this thread (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1822418&highlight=Winston#post1822418)? Winston was playing well his last season here. There was some Pro Bowl chatter. He had his limitations, but they were the sort of limitations that most above average but not elite tackles have.



I never felt like Butler was an adequate replacement plan. I gave Newton the benefit of the doubt early on, since he was young, but neve rfelt good about him either. Here are some of my posts from the offseason/preseason after Winston was cut:







I think there's a little revisionist history going on these days.



You can't have a salary cap discussion without discussing the lack of ability to replace players. Otherwise, we could just all propose that they replace everyone with vet minimums. Winston was a better tackle than anyone the Texans had in the pipeline, and he was under contract. And in case everyone forgot, the Texans never even attempted to renegotiate his contract! They just outright cut him as a complete surprise. They gave us that BS rationale that they respected him too much to try and renegotiate his contract, while they forced Walter to take a pay cut and renegotiated AJ's contract. Guess that means they didn't respect the latter two players, huh?

That kind of crap is on Rick Smith. IF you're going to cut a solid player, you better damn sure have a replacement plan and a contingency plan or you run the risk of looking like a dumbass at the very least, and costing your team some wins very possibly.


I was speaking more from my perspective. I definitely would have tried to replace Winston though. Him being a better player here than newton isn't saying a lot, but if they could have worked it out cap wise I'd rather then keep a guy like Winston than to play a guy like newton who is markedly worse.

eriadoc
10-25-2013, 08:25 PM
I was speaking more from my perspective. I definitely would have tried to replace Winston though.

Well sure. He never did make a Pro Bowl, and he gave up too many WTF sacks for my liking. But a replacement plan doesn't consist of cutting the starter and then hoping that a 7th round pick outperforms the guy that couldn't outperform the average to slightly above starter you just cut. That's just dumb.

I guess for all the talk of building a team long term and having a long term plan, it annoys me to notice that they really suck at planning.

Texian
10-25-2013, 09:25 PM
Well sure. He never did make a Pro Bowl, and he gave up too many WTF sacks for my liking. But a replacement plan doesn't consist of cutting the starter and then hoping that a 7th round pick outperforms the guy that couldn't outperform the average to slightly above starter you just cut. That's just dumb.

I guess for all the talk of building a team long term and having a long term plan, it annoys me to notice that they really suck at planning.

Not many RT make the pro bowl. LT get most of the press and most of the votes.

dream_team
10-25-2013, 09:57 PM
Well sure. He never did make a Pro Bowl, and he gave up too many WTF sacks for my liking. But a replacement plan doesn't consist of cutting the starter and then hoping that a 7th round pick outperforms the guy that couldn't outperform the average to slightly above starter you just cut. That's just dumb.

I guess for all the talk of building a team long term and having a long term plan, it annoys me to notice that they really suck at planning.

But Newton wasn't plan A, it was Butler. Butler did an awesome job filling for Duane during his suspension. I honestly thought Butler was a better pass protector than Winston, but not as good in run blocking. I thought Butler would overall be a downgrade, but not by much... certainly justifying the cut to save money I thought. I don't think the FO was expecting either Butler or Newton to be better than Winston.

TexansFight
10-25-2013, 09:59 PM
MIT graduate Daryl Morey lives by mantra of "Opportunity is not a lengthy visitor," fitting for all-in strategy

Read this article. It highlights the characteristics of what a CHAMPIONSHIP caliber GM is all about. Opportunity is not a lengthy visitor. I love that quote. I wish Smithiak had a TENTH of that type of urgency. It is no wonder that the Rockets are poised to contend for championships for years. Don't give me the excuse that the NBA is different. The Baltimore Ravens have consistently been a playoff team contending for Super Bowls for over a decade. They have the Morey like sense of urgency. FIRE SMITHIAK!!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/rockets/2013/10/25/daryl-morey-dwight-howard-james-harden-houston/3189339/#twitterstfcf

I absolutely love Daryl Morey and the Rockets are by far and away the best run team in Houston with the best owner.

Scooter
10-25-2013, 10:16 PM
the NBA lets half the league into the playoffs and morey's only made it 3 of his 7 years. let's not crown anybody until they achieve something. morey plays with the team like it's a video game and the fans love all that movement. that's not the way to win in the NFL.

TexansFight
10-25-2013, 10:20 PM
the NBA lets half the league into the playoffs and morey's only made it 3 of his 7 years. let's not crown anybody until they achieve something. morey plays with the team like it's a video game and the fans love all that movement. that's not the way to win in the NFL.

Keep making excuses for Smithiak. Morey deftly managed the salary cap, has found diamonds in the SECOND ROUND OF THE NBA DRAFT, moved assets and pounced on opportunity to get Harden and then attracted a STUD FA in Howard. Rick Smith whiffs on 2nd and 3rd round NFL draft picks like Brandon Harris, Sam Montgomery, Roc Carmichael, etc., extends a contract for a loser like Schaub and signs a broke-down Ed Reed. Which team do you think has a brighter future?

ArlingtonTexan
10-25-2013, 10:30 PM
the NBA lets half the league into the playoffs and morey's only made it 3 of his 7 years. let's not crown anybody until they achieve something. morey plays with the team like it's a video game and the fans love all that movement. that's not the way to win in the NFL.

You must not read the basketball forum. Morey is pretty much next to God there.

Scooter
10-25-2013, 10:31 PM
the dude has to fill 10 roster spots and still cant make the playoffs. it looks like this may be a good year, but one injury and all is lost. cap and player management between the two sports arent really comparable because of the vast difference in number of players, injury frequency, and the very nature of the sports being team vs individuals. if you want to see morey in the NFL, and what all the transactions do, just look at jerry jones.

Scooter
10-25-2013, 10:35 PM
You must not read the basketball forum. Morey is pretty much next to God there.

unfortunately i'm aware. like i said, he moves players around like he's playing a video game and the fans love it. simulate through the season without caring about results - but come the offseason the wheeling and dealing begins and it's pretty exciting. and then sim the season again.

Texanmike02
10-25-2013, 10:40 PM
Yep, it was just a matter of time and that's when it began to rear it's ugly head. Actually the crack in the damn started around the middle of November. Those .500 and > teams have a way of doing that to the Texans most of the time.

Riiiiiiggghhhtttt. Bad cap management started affecting us in December. So do bad draft picks start hurting teams in the Superbowl?

I've wasted too much time in this thread. You have a twisted reason for every statement you make and your analytical skills are severely lacking.

It is OK for a very talented team to be up against the cap. This is a very talented team. Your favorite team, Indy apparently, is under the cap because they are a young team with onegreat player and several above aaverage players that are all very young.

And in case you have forgotten, your favorite team had the best qb of all time for over a decade and only has one ring to show for it. Think about that for a minute. You think in 3 years that Luck's contract isn'tgoing to put indy in a world of hurt? Their owner was just lamenting the fact that they only won one ring with Manning. The colts are a 3 or 4 win team without Luck. The Texans will win more games than that with a QB that is half as good as luck and then they will have the chance to draft a franchise QB.

Other than luck which players do the colts have that you would take over the Texans hands down? If that list is more than three or four players we know the problem, it is your knowledge.

Mike

Yaky
10-25-2013, 10:43 PM
The primary reason why Winston was released when he was is because he offered the Texans the most Salary Cap space which the Texans were in desperate need of. Winston gave up 6 sacks during the year without any help but nobody did a better job run blocking and opening up more holes for Foster than Winston. Winston's departure was the beginning of Foster's decline. Since Winston's departure to this day the Texans can not run to the right or in the Red Zone.

+1
The Texans were a top running team with Brisiel and Winston. Now they cant run to the right, cant run in the Red Zone, and the RBs get injured.

It all starts in the trenches. The OLine was a strength, now its a major weakness.

Texanmike02
10-25-2013, 10:52 PM
This team is begging for a coaching change. The sooner the better.


It isn't a cap issue, it is a coaching issue.

Mike

Texian
10-25-2013, 11:14 PM
This team is begging for a coaching change. The sooner the better.


It isn't a cap issue, it is a coaching issue.

Mike

I have been saying that since 2010. Pleaded with McNair to hire Harbaugh. This coach is also responsible for managing the salary cap. You can't have it both ways.

Texian
10-25-2013, 11:21 PM
+1
The Texans were a top running team with Brisiel and Winston. Now they cant run to the right, cant run in the Red Zone, and the RBs get injured.

It all starts in the trenches. The OLine was a strength, now its a major weakness.

yes sir, this is not uncommon and usually happens not long after Alex Gibbs leaves. IMHO I think it is a result of a lack of attention to detail that Gibbs is so meticulous about. When Winston, Brisel, Dreessen and Leach left it was like they broke up the Alex Gibbs band.

thunderkyss
10-26-2013, 12:10 AM
I wish Smithiak had a TENTH of that type of urgency. It is no wonder that the Rockets are poised to contend for championships for years.

Right now, there's no difference.

I thought we were title contenders in 2011..... Schaub got hurt, didn't happen. I think we'd have beat the Ravens with Schaub & those Patriots weren't very good & I think we'd have beat them as well. Matt was playing well... very well in 2011. There is that clutch question that has never been proven beyond a shadow of doubt..... but y'know.

2012, I thought we were a contender...... for 9 weeks or so anyway. The bottom fell out of that thing & it wasn't just Schaub. The run game never got right & the defense fell off a cliff.

2013 as far as I'm concerned, we've got the talent to be a contender. The Texans need to stop shooting themselves in the foot & take care of business.

But you can't argue that the Texans haven't been "poised" to do something. It just never actually happened.

Rockets..... pretty much the same thing. A lot of potential right now... very little proof.

thunderkyss
10-26-2013, 12:26 AM
Ratliff received $18 million guaranteed under his 2011 contract. His departure will trigger a $6.98 million cap charge in 2014, at a time when the Cowboys (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/24/sean-lee-has-no-farewell-wishes-for-jay-ratliff/)reportedly will be $31 million above the salary cap.

There's a difference between poor choices & woefully mismanaging your cap. & they have even less than we do to show for it.

Texian
10-26-2013, 11:01 AM
Riiiiiiggghhhtttt. Bad cap management started affecting us in December. So do bad draft picks start hurting teams in the Superbowl?

I've wasted too much time in this thread. You have a twisted reason for every statement you make and your analytical skills are severely lacking.

It is OK for a very talented team to be up against the cap. This is a very talented team. Your favorite team, Indy apparently, is under the cap because they are a young team with onegreat player and several above aaverage players that are all very young.

And in case you have forgotten, your favorite team had the best qb of all time for over a decade and only has one ring to show for it. Think about that for a minute. You think in 3 years that Luck's contract isn'tgoing to put indy in a world of hurt? Their owner was just lamenting the fact that they only won one ring with Manning. The colts are a 3 or 4 win team without Luck. The Texans will win more games than that with a QB that is half as good as luck and then they will have the chance to draft a franchise QB.

Other than luck which players do the colts have that you would take over the Texans hands down? If that list is more than three or four players we know the problem, it is your knowledge.

Mike

Do you always insult those who don't agree with you? Let's turn the tables, first Indy is not my favorite team. I do respect what they have done, how they have handled the Manning situation and the decisions seem to have worked out well whether you agree with what Irsay has done or not.

No doubt about it Luck will be signing one of the largest QB contracts ever when it's his turn. That doesn't stop SMART front offices from signing good players. Baltimore signed Flacco to a $100 million contract this year. Also this year the Ravens were able to sign THREE FREE AGENT (3) Pro Bowl players. Signing 3 pro bowl players is something the Texans could not do even if they wanted to because they didn't have the money to do it. According to your logic this makes the Texans better.

Come March every year for the last four years, day 1 of the beginning new league year the Texans have NOT had enough money to meet the basic minimum financial obligations. Each year every year they have had to borrow money from future years to meet those obligations. According to your logic the Texans are doing a fine job of managing the salary cap.

The Texans strategy and logic for the last 3 years has not been based on who is best player we can get to fill an empty or needed position but who is the best player they can get at the league minimum to fill a needed position. That is a big difference. That is the difference in a good player and a below average player. The Texans strategy and logic consist of finding cheap puzzle pieces to sign and draft that fit their puzzle. The priority for player acquisitions are based on [b]limited dollar signing ability and not what is the best available talent they can sign. And According to your logic the Texans have no salary cap problems and even though can't sign any good FA players the last 3 years. According to your logic Band Aid Management makes the Texans better. The scoreboard says something completely different.

infantrycak
10-26-2013, 11:31 AM
No doubt about it Luck will be signing one of the largest QB contracts ever when it's his turn. That doesn't stop SMART front offices from signing good players. Baltimore signed Flacco to a $100 million contract this year. Also this year the Ravens were able to sign THREE FREE AGENT (3) Pro Bowl players. Signing 3 pro bowl players is something the Texans could not do even if they wanted to because they didn't have the money to do it. According to your logic this makes the Texans better.

Signing other players in the early years of giant deals isn't the problem. It is the back end years. The Ravens just kicked the can down the road and Flacco's contract isn't viable in 2016.

What pro-bowlers other than Dumervil? Are you talking about Dallas Clark on his vet min deal?

Texanmike02
10-26-2013, 12:21 PM
Do you always insult those who don't agree with you? Let's turn the tables, first Indy is not my favorite team. I do respect what they have done, how they have handled the Manning situation and the decisions seem to have worked out well whether you agree with what Irsay has done or not.

No doubt about it Luck will be signing one of the largest QB contracts ever when it's his turn. That doesn't stop SMART front offices from signing good players. Baltimore signed Flacco to a $100 million contract this year. Also this year the Ravens were able to sign THREE FREE AGENT (3) Pro Bowl players. Signing 3 pro bowl players is something the Texans could not do even if they wanted to because they didn't have the money to do it. According to your logic this makes the Texans better.

Come March every year for the last four years, day 1 of the beginning new league year the Texans have NOT had enough money to meet the basic minimum financial obligations. Each year every year they have had to borrow money from future years to meet those obligations. According to your logic the Texans are doing a fine job of managing the salary cap.

The Texans strategy and logic for the last 3 years has not been based on who is best player we can get to fill an empty or needed position but who is the best player they can get at the league minimum to fill a needed position. That is a big difference. That is the difference in a good player and a below average player. The Texans strategy and logic consist of finding cheap puzzle pieces to sign and draft that fit their puzzle. The priority for player acquisitions are based on [b]limited dollar signing ability and not what is the best available talent they can sign. And According to your logic the Texans have no salary cap problems and even though can't sign any good FA players the last 3 years. According to your logic Band Aid Management makes the Texans better. The scoreboard says something completely different.

First of all no I don't insult people I disagree with. I tend to insult those that have an air of superiority about them, especially when I think they are full of crap. I've read too many pages of you claiming clairvoyance and seen little evidence of anything other than you are unhappy. The colts handled the Manning situation well but they have had a history of bad drafts, bad cap management and dissapointment that you wouldn't believe. They in a league in which having a great QB gives you a distinct advantage they won one Superbowl in a decade with the greatest qb of all time.

The colts have done nothing special. In fact they are lucky in that they have to pay a star qb peanuts compared to what he is worth. Look at the patriots. Up against the cap every year. The colts will get a few years of cap relief until lucks contract comes due so let's see what happens then.

Take a look at the Giants, Steelers, Pats.


And BTW, the ravens are morons for that signing. Flacco is an above average streaky QB that got hot. They wwon't win another SB while he's there.


P.S. We have a coaching problem, not a cap/talent problem. And please don't tell me that the cap is the coaches responsibility. That's the stupidest system iI've ever heard. The coaches job is to maximize the talent on the field. If he has the purse strings then his concern is winning today. The GMs responsibility is to provide talent now and not screw the tEAM 5 years from now.


Mike

Texian
10-26-2013, 01:05 PM
P.S. We have a coaching problem, not a cap/talent problem. And please don't tell me that the cap is the coaches responsibility. That's the stupidest system iI've ever heard. The coaches job is to maximize the talent on the field. If he has the purse strings then his concern is winning today. The GMs responsibility is to provide talent now and not screw the tEAM 5 years from now.

Mike

That is exactly what I am telling you because that is the TRUTH whether you think it's crap, clairvoyant or someone's superiority. The Ravens are morons is you idea of evidence and not an insult? Make no mistake, Gary Kubiak has complete and final say on the 53 man roster. It is in his contract. All personnel transactions are only done after they have Kubiak's approval.

Rick Smith is a GM in name only. Rick Smith is a GM to Gary Kubiak in the same way that Scott Pioli was a GM to Bill Belichick. In Bob McNair's own words in 2006 he said he was using the Patriot's Model to build his team. Made sense after the Patriots had won 3 out of the last 5 Super Bowls. The only problem with that thinking is Kubiak is not Belichick, Smith is not Pioli and Houston is not New England.

That stupidest system you've ever heard of is the exact system they've in New England and the same system Denver used with Shanahan as the Head Coach and GM. That same system in Denver under Mike Shanahan that Kubiak and Smith trained under.

The fact that the Texans can't afford to pay all their bills for four years in a row is in fact a cap problem not a crap problem. That's also evidence you that you conveniently like to ignore. Kubiak does try to put the best talent on the field that money can buy. Unfortunately the Texans haven't had any money to spend.IT HAS FINALLY CAUGHT UP WITH THEM The team 5 years from now isn't even part of the discussion or on the Texans radar. This has become all to familiar with the pattern of behavior and operations model of the Kubiak era. BTW The scoreboard still disagrees with you.

Wolf
10-26-2013, 01:11 PM
When you build a team at a snails pace. Kinda tough to maintain this salary cap when you inconsistently draft good players

thunderkyss
10-26-2013, 04:22 PM
Also this year the Ravens were able to sign THREE FREE AGENT (3) Pro Bowl players. Signing 3 pro bowl players is something the Texans could not do even if they wanted to because they didn't have the money to do it. According to your logic this makes the Texans better.


Except it's something they do all the time.

Schaub... 2 time pro bowler
Cushing... Pro Bowler
Antonio... Pro Bowler
Wade... . Pro Bowler
Duane.... Pro Bowler
Andre.... Multiple pro bowls
Arian...... Pro Bowl
Joseph... Pro Bowl
OD.......... Pro Bowl

I'm sorry, you said 3.


Come March every year for the last four years, day 1 of the beginning new league year the Texans have NOT had enough money to meet the basic minimum financial obligations.

The Texans strategy and logic for the last 3 years...

I have no doubt improvements can be made in how we managed the cap. I don't think Winston was ever a $5M/yr player & we let him go because we finally got to a point we couldn't afford to pay him any more. $3M/yr would have been much more bearable.

At the same time, I don't think it's as big an issue as you think. There will be a time when Brady's contract will be renegotiated, the Broncos will borrow money to pay for Peyton, The Ravens will for Flacco.... if it makes sense & it will.

That's the way it is. As mentioned earlier, as long as we aren't $31M over the cap before the league year even starts, we're not talking about "gross mismanagement"

Texanmike02
10-26-2013, 04:32 PM
That is exactly what I am telling you because that is the TRUTH whether you think it's crap, clairvoyant or someone's superiority. The Ravens are morons is you idea of evidence and not an insult? Make no mistake, Gary Kubiak has complete and final say on the 53 man roster. It is in his contract. All personnel transactions are only done after they have Kubiak's approval.

Rick Smith is a GM in name only. Rick Smith is a GM to Gary Kubiak in the same way that Scott Pioli was a GM to Bill Belichick. In Bob McNair's own words in 2006 he said he was using the Patriot's Model to build his team. Made sense after the Patriots had won 3 out of the last 5 Super Bowls. The only problem with that thinking is Kubiak is not Belichick, Smith is not Pioli and Houston is not New England.

That stupidest system you've ever heard of is the exact system they've in New England and the same system Denver used with Shanahan as the Head Coach and GM. That same system in Denver under Mike Shanahan that Kubiak and Smith trained under.

The fact that the Texans can't afford to pay all their bills for four years in a row is in fact a cap problem not a crap problem. That's also evidence you that you conveniently like to ignore. Kubiak does try to put the best talent on the field that money can buy. Unfortunately the Texans haven't had any money to spend.IT HAS FINALLY CAUGHT UP WITH THEM The team 5 years from now isn't even part of the discussion or on the Texans radar. This has become all to familiar with the pattern of behavior and operations model of the Kubiak era. BTW The scoreboard still disagrees with you.

Belichick does not manage the salary cap. But you know it all so you believe what you want.

Mike

dalemurphy
10-26-2013, 05:11 PM
Who drafts consistently? I think you would be hard-pressed to find a better collection of drafted talent by any NFL team than the Texans from 2008 onward.

You are simply much more familiar with the Texan misses in the draft than other teams' misses. New England has made big "mistakes" in rounds 2 and 3 the past few years- even in round one... as have almost all the NFL teams. Nobody was questioning the talent level of the Texans in August/September. Poor execution and play certainly have the effect of making the team appear less talented, just as winning week after week has the opposite effect.

Consider the Texans' 1st round picks from 2008 onward:
2008 26th pick: Duane Brown (elite LT. Texans were heavily criticized for selecting him)
2009 15th? pick: Brian Cushing (had a reputation for "not loving football"- ironic)
2010 27th? pick: Kareem Jackson (Smith was hammered for this pick- Once David Gibbs was sent packing, KJ has proven to be an excellent draft pick)
2011 9th pick: JJ Watt (best defensive player drafted in the NFL in a long time!)
2012 28th? pick: W. Mercilus (too early to say for sure- made plays in limited time last year and has looked very good most of this year, IMO)
2013 28th pick: Deandre Hopkins (Great pick! I don't think I'm being overly optimistic to think he will be one of the better NFL WRs within two years)

Even if you don't factor in how late in the round those picks were made, that is one heck of a track record.

Looking back into the middle/late rounds:
Ben Tate (good pick, despite injury issues)
Glover Quin (very solid player. I miss him.)
Garrett Graham (looks like a solid replacement for OD next year)
Brandon Brooks (I know the line looks bad.. but this guy is pretty good and could become great)
Earl Mitchell (solid and ascending player)
D. Posey (very little proof of this so far, but I'm thinking he's gonna be good!)
J. Crick (ascending, at least a very solid rotational defensive lineman)
A. Foster as a UDFA
Keenum as an UDFA


**For many of the mid/late round picks the past couple years, it is just too early to know (but there is some reason for optimism):

Quessenberry
K. Martin
B. Jones
R. Griffin
Randy Bullock (rough start- but showing a great leg and has settled down)
Sharpton (injury-riddled and frustrating but hard to complain about the pick)
Trindon Holliday (pick- example of bad coaching)
Shelley Smith (good lineman- another mistake by coaches to cut- starter and/or 1st lineman off the bench for Rams.
Brice McCain (good pick- frustrating to see him put in so many situations where he's overmatched- but 6th round nickel CB who had a couple good years and is competent, at least)

Ho-Hum
Brooks Reed- useful player, not a miss but not a hit consider he was top 50
Shiloh Keo- not my guy, that's for sure, but not bad for a 5th.
James Casey- some good moments, somewhat misused at the end
Connor Barwin- inconsistent playmaker. great year in 2011, though

Clear Misses
Sam Montgomery
Brennan Williams (he could still work out- but a 3rd round rookie getting micro-fracture surgery, probably because of an existing condition, is the worst kind of draft mistake)
Rashad Carmichael
Brandon Harris (perhaps the pick only looks bad because the coaches don't play him, but a 2nd rounder with 3 years experience needs to be a consistent contributor)
Frank Okam (hated the pick. hated seeing him make the team for three years even more)
Anthony Hill (umm... yeah. not good)


This is the draft record of an organization with a very competent personnel department. We can argue whether they are among the best or not. However, any honest comparison between the Rick Smith drafts and the rest of the NFL will show him to be easily in the top 3rd of the league.

I also have not seen him make many mistakes acquiring free agents. I would say that all of his significant signings have worked out well, with the likely exception of the Ed Reed mess.

Antonio Smith
J. Joseph
Danieal Manning
Wade Smith (not pretty to watch now. But, he has been very productive for the Texans during their two playoff seasons- not bad at all for the price)

Also, Rick Smith has shown himself to be very good at determining when to move on from key players- instead of overpaying them and causing real cap issues:

Demeco Ryans (given a big contract- nasty injury- then unloaded for significant compensation)
Mario Williams ($100 million contract! thank God he was cut loose. )
Eric Winston (can't find work in the NFL now- I realize our memory of his play at RT is better than what we are watching now- but, that doesn't mean his play now would be better... nor does it change the fact that he wasn't worth that contract.
Connor Barwin (I loved the guy despite his play in 2012- looks like a good decision to me, now)
James Casey (another guy I liked- given a huge contract- Phillie is getting little from him.
Kevin Walter (like him- glad he's gone though- his lack of speed was hurting the offense the past two years- since Andre's athleticism began to decline.
Dunta Robinson (how did that work out for Atlanta?)

So, I think Rick Smith's performance has been good... though not perfect, certainly. I also believe he is an ascending GM. I would trust him to operate this team for the next 10 years, regardless of what happens with Kubiak.

dalemurphy
10-26-2013, 05:35 PM
That is exactly what I am telling you because that is the TRUTH whether you think it's crap, clairvoyant or someone's superiority. The Ravens are morons is you idea of evidence and not an insult? Make no mistake, Gary Kubiak has complete and final say on the 53 man roster. It is in his contract. All personnel transactions are only done after they have Kubiak's approval.

Rick Smith is a GM in name only. Rick Smith is a GM to Gary Kubiak in the same way that Scott Pioli was a GM to Bill Belichick. In Bob McNair's own words in 2006 he said he was using the Patriot's Model to build his team. Made sense after the Patriots had won 3 out of the last 5 Super Bowls. The only problem with that thinking is Kubiak is not Belichick, Smith is not Pioli and Houston is not New England.

That stupidest system you've ever heard of is the exact system they've in New England and the same system Denver used with Shanahan as the Head Coach and GM. That same system in Denver under Mike Shanahan that Kubiak and Smith trained under.

You are right about what McNair said in 2006. You are also right in this statement: "Kubiak is not Belicheck, Smith is not Pioli, and Houston is not New England."

All of that became clear to McNair by 2010... McNair believes in Kubiak's philosophy and his system but figured out that Kubiak does not have the cold discernment and special decision-making skills that are unique to some of the great NFL coaches: like Belicheck. That is why he arrested some of the control of the team from Kubiak and gave it to Rick Smith... It was Smith who wanted to go another direction at defensive coordinator after 2008, but Kubiak overruled him and promoted Frank Bush. After the 2010 nightmare, Kubiak was retained as head coach but lost a lot of that GM power... Rick Smith was given it and was the one that wanted Wade Phillips.

I can not prove all of it, but it is clearly that the organization has been running much differently since the 2010 season. There was a "C" change, so to speak. Many of the big decisions regarding core players were made with much more calculation and less "loyalty" than was previously the case. Examples I would cite would be the Demeco Ryans trade, the clear decision to let Mario walk without giving him a real offer, the Winston cut, the Alex Gibb exit, Kevin Walter release, not re-signing Dreessen, etc... Those are things that don't happen, I don't think, if Kubiak is running the show.

To the second part of your statement, "Rick Smith is not Pioli"... that is very true. Pioli was a bit of a disaster once Belicheck wasn't pulling the strings anymore... Rick Smith is a vastly better GM. Pioli was part of a perfect storm- a group of football men that came together at the right moment, in the right situation, and did one heck of a job! And, don't get me wrong, Pioli did a great job! My point is that his ability to succeed at that job is limited to the unique situation he was in. I'm confident you will never see him take over an organization and build it into a success... You saw what happened in KC. He kept trying to patchwork that organization with whatever guys he could get from his time in N.E.- and he had no answers... Anyone that hires Romeo Crennel to be the head coach is clearly at a loss.

Texian
10-26-2013, 06:04 PM
Belichick does not manage the salary cap. But you know it all so you believe what you want.

Mike

According to Bob Kraft, Bill Belichick does manage the salary cap and I believe it so because Bob Kraft has said it's so;

"I think he'll go down as the greatest coach in the history of the NFL, because he's really competing in the era of the salary cap. I think a lot of great coaches had difficulty understanding how to balance the economics of the game and the budget. His product knowledge is so great," said Kraft, who first came to appreciate Belichick's ability to mix football X's and O's and economics in 1996, when Belichick was an assistant on Bill Parcells' New England staff."

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/7487161/tom-brady-bill-belichick-make-history-together-new-england-patriots-beat-baltimore-ravens-afc-championship-game

It wasn’t one thing; it was everything. The NFL world was changing, and new skills were needed for a coach to succeed.

“Bill Parcells was not transitioning well into the salary-cap era,’’ Kraft maintains.

He felt that Wesleyan economics major Belichick would not have that problem.

Previously, I think I maybe tried to do too many little things,’’ Belichick said, “too many things that maybe took away from bigger picture things I should have been doing.’’

He also said, “There are a lot of things on the periphery and outside, off the field, that are also important toward winning, and I’ll put more time and effort into making sure those things are right for the organization than maybe I did previously.’’

“Bill’s a smart guy,’’ Kraft says. “He knows how to adapt and do what he has to do.’’

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2011/01/14/among_kraft_moves_coach_gets_top_billing/?page=2

I admit that I don't know it all, nor do I believe that I am all that smart, I may however, be better informed.

houstonspartan
10-26-2013, 06:08 PM
You are right about what McNair said in 2006. You are also right in this statement: "Kubiak is not Belicheck, Smith is not Pioli, and Houston is not New England."

All of that became clear to McNair by 2010... McNair believes in Kubiak's philosophy and his system but figured out that Kubiak does not have the cold discernment and special decision-making skills that are unique to some of the great NFL coaches: like Belicheck. That is why he arrested some of the control of the team from Kubiak and gave it to Rick Smith... It was Smith who wanted to go another direction at defensive coordinator after 2008, but Kubiak overruled him and promoted Frank Bush. After the 2010 nightmare, Kubiak was retained as head coach but lost a lot of that GM power... Rick Smith was given it and was the one that wanted Wade Phillips.

I can not prove all of it, but it is clearly that the organization has been running much differently since the 2010 season. There was a "C" change, so to speak. Many of the big decisions regarding core players were made with much more calculation and less "loyalty" than was previously the case. Examples I would cite would be the Demeco Ryans trade, the clear decision to let Mario walk without giving him a real offer, the Winston cut, the Alex Gibb exit, Kevin Walter release, not re-signing Dreessen, etc... Those are things that don't happen, I don't think, if Kubiak is running the show.

To the second part of your statement, "Rick Smith is not Pioli"... that is very true. Pioli was a bit of a disaster once Belicheck wasn't pulling the strings anymore... Rick Smith is a vastly better GM. Pioli was part of a perfect storm- a group of football men that came together at the right moment, in the right situation, and did one heck of a job! And, don't get me wrong, Pioli did a great job! My point is that his ability to succeed at that job is limited to the unique situation he was in. I'm confident you will never see him take over an organization and build it into a success... You saw what happened in KC. He kept trying to patchwork that organization with whatever guys he could get from his time in N.E.- and he had no answers... Anyone that hires Romeo Crennel to be the head coach is clearly at a loss.

Very true. Even I said, after 2010, "Man, the Texans suddenly seem ruthless and cold."

The only exception has been our Special Teams coach. Other than that, the Texans, since 2010, has been run like a mob organization. Unfortunately, however, we haven't been coached like a mob organization, which is why we find ourselves in our current situation...

thunderkyss
10-26-2013, 06:30 PM
Eric Winston (can't find work in the NFL now- I realize our memory of his play at RT is better than what we are watching now- but, that doesn't mean his play now would be better... nor does it change the fact that he wasn't worth that contract.

He's currently getting his butt handed to him starting on the Cardinals OL.

Texian
10-26-2013, 06:33 PM
The Ravens just kicked the can down the road and Flacco's contract isn't viable in 2016.

So over the next 3 years the Ravens will pay Joe Flacco the same as the Texans will pay Matt Schaub. In 2015 the salary cap will be increased by $20-$30 million because of the new 17/18 game schedule. And in 2016 Joe Flacco's contract kicks in, a year after the the major cap increase. Sounds like another case study of good salary cap management by the Ravens vs bad salary cap management by the Texans.

thunderkyss
10-26-2013, 06:38 PM
According to Bob Kraft, Bill Belichick does manage the salary cap and I believe it so because Bob Kraft has said it's so;

That doesn't really say that he's managing the cap (I don't know if he is or isn't, don't have an opinion either way)... it says that he understands how to coach in the salary cap era, which is a little different.

Texian
10-26-2013, 06:53 PM
You are right about what McNair said in 2006. You are also right in this statement: "Kubiak is not Belicheck, Smith is not Pioli, and Houston is not New England."

All of that became clear to McNair by 2010... McNair believes in Kubiak's philosophy and his system but figured out that Kubiak does not have the cold discernment and special decision-making skills that are unique to some of the great NFL coaches: like Belicheck. That is why he arrested some of the control of the team from Kubiak and gave it to Rick Smith... It was Smith who wanted to go another direction at defensive coordinator after 2008, but Kubiak overruled him and promoted Frank Bush. After the 2010 nightmare, Kubiak was retained as head coach but lost a lot of that GM power... Rick Smith was given it and was the one that wanted Wade Phillips.

I can not prove all of it, but it is clearly that the organization has been running much differently since the 2010 season. There was a "C" change, so to speak. Many of the big decisions regarding core players were made with much more calculation and less "loyalty" than was previously the case. Examples I would cite would be the Demeco Ryans trade, the clear decision to let Mario walk without giving him a real offer, the Winston cut, the Alex Gibb exit, Kevin Walter release, not re-signing Dreessen, etc... Those are things that don't happen, I don't think, if Kubiak is running the show.

To the second part of your statement, "Rick Smith is not Pioli"... that is very true. Pioli was a bit of a disaster once Belicheck wasn't pulling the strings anymore... Rick Smith is a vastly better GM. Pioli was part of a perfect storm- a group of football men that came together at the right moment, in the right situation, and did one heck of a job! And, don't get me wrong, Pioli did a great job! My point is that his ability to succeed at that job is limited to the unique situation he was in. I'm confident you will never see him take over an organization and build it into a success... You saw what happened in KC. He kept trying to patchwork that organization with whatever guys he could get from his time in N.E.- and he had no answers... Anyone that hires Romeo Crennel to be the head coach is clearly at a loss.

No offense DM but this statement is mostly you guessing and everything you are wishing, wanting, dreaming and hoping for along with a good dose of supposition. The reason it all falls it on it's face is Gary Kubiak never gave up full and final control of the 53 man roster. It's part of his contract today just as it was the day it was written. Kubiak's contract has not changed or been redone it still expires in 2014.

Pioli was a very good right hand man for Belichick, Bill could trust Scott to do what Belichick wanted done, in much the same way Kubiak trust Smith to to what Gary wants and needs Rick to do. At KC Pioli did a very good job in player personnel acquisitions and transactions as the 2013 7-0 Chiefs start will attest. Pioli failed miserably in his Head Coach selection.

Little secret here, it was Bob McNair that hired Wade Phillips. That was a done deal in the later part of December when Bob invited Bum to a Texans practice.

Wolf
10-26-2013, 06:54 PM
According to Bob Kraft, Bill Belichick does manage the salary cap and I believe it so because Bob Kraft has said it's so;

"I think he'll go down as the greatest coach in the history of the NFL, because he's really competing in the era of the salary cap. I think a lot of great coaches had difficulty understanding how to balance the economics of the game and the budget. His product knowledge is so great," said Kraft, who first came to appreciate Belichick's ability to mix football X's and O's and economics in 1996, when Belichick was an assistant on Bill Parcells' New England staff."

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/7487161/tom-brady-bill-belichick-make-history-together-new-england-patriots-beat-baltimore-ravens-afc-championship-game

It wasn’t one thing; it was everything. The NFL world was changing, and new skills were needed for a coach to succeed.

“Bill Parcells was not transitioning well into the salary-cap era,’’ Kraft maintains.

He felt that Wesleyan economics major Belichick would not have that problem.

Previously, I think I maybe tried to do too many little things,’’ Belichick said, “too many things that maybe took away from bigger picture things I should have been doing.’’

He also said, “There are a lot of things on the periphery and outside, off the field, that are also important toward winning, and I’ll put more time and effort into making sure those things are right for the organization than maybe I did previously.’’

“Bill’s a smart guy,’’ Kraft says. “He knows how to adapt and do what he has to do.’’

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2011/01/14/among_kraft_moves_coach_gets_top_billing/?page=2


He lucked out with a hall of fame quarterback late in the draft. I am curious how he does when Brady retires

Texian
10-26-2013, 06:57 PM
That doesn't really say that he's managing the cap (I don't know if he is or isn't, don't have an opinion either way)... it says that he understands how to coach in the salary cap era, which is a little different.

Now go back and read it again with 100% objectivity.

Texanmike02
10-26-2013, 08:43 PM
Now go back and read it again with 100% objectivity.

I've read it three times. I'm not the one lacking objectivity.

Mike

Texian
10-26-2013, 09:15 PM
I've read it three times. I'm not the one lacking objectivity.

Mike

Then your lacking comprehension. You definitely fit into the category that most people only see and hear what they want to see and hear. And those who think they're never wrong.

thunderkyss
10-26-2013, 10:24 PM
“Bill Parcells was not transitioning well into the salary-cap era,’’ Kraft maintains.


With that statement, do you think Parcells was also managing the cap?

That whole statement by Kraft is just saying that Belichick understood a reality a lot of football people refused to accept for a long time.

dalemurphy
10-26-2013, 10:49 PM
So over the next 3 years the Ravens will pay Joe Flacco the same as the Texans will pay Matt Schaub. In 2015 the salary cap will be increased by $20-$30 million because of the new 17/18 game schedule. And in 2016 Joe Flacco's contract kicks in, a year after the the major cap increase. Sounds like another case study of good salary cap management by the Ravens vs bad salary cap management by the Texans.


First, aren't you the guy that argued that the Texans are foolish to expect the cap to grow significantly in a couple years?... then, you defend Flacco's contract by saying "the cap will increase by $20-$30 million in a couple years".... Well, for Baltimore's sake, it had better!

You are making these numbers up:

by "next three years", I guess you are including the current year?... Well, let's talk about Flacco's 4th year in the contract, when he is scheduled to count $29 million against the cap... Oh, and if they wanted to cut him before that season, they would deal with over $25 million in dead money... I'm not sure how that is anything like Schaub's deal.

You actually highlighted my point. The Texans have not backloaded contracts, which is why they are in very good cap health long term. Your point that Schaub's first three years in his deal (which is 1/2 of Flacco's in totality) cost the same amount as Flacco's against the cap the first couple seasons, illustrates why Baltimore is less healthy than Houston regarding the cap. The Texans don't have any of those monster numbers coming due. And, any of the players that have significant contracts- and may not be living up to them, can be cut from the team for a net cap savings (Joseph, ASmith, OD, Schaub, Manning, etc..)

Schaub, for instance, can be cut after this season, count $10 million against the cap and then the Texans would be clear of his contract. Flacco, if he is cut before year 5 of his 6 year deal, will cost the Ravens $30+ in dead money. And, even if they don't cut him, he will cost them $30 million in cap costs in years 4, 5, 6.

Texian
10-26-2013, 11:49 PM
First, aren't you the guy that argued that the Texans are foolish to expect the cap to grow significantly in a couple years?... then, you defend Flacco's contract by saying "the cap will increase by $20-$30 million in a couple years".... Well, for Baltimore's sake, it had better!

You are making these numbers up:

by "next three years", I guess you are including the current year?... Well, let's talk about Flacco's 4th year in the contract, when he is scheduled to count $29 million against the cap... Oh, and if they wanted to cut him before that season, they would deal with over $25 million in dead money... I'm not sure how that is anything like Schaub's deal.

You actually highlighted my point. The Texans have not backloaded contracts, which is why they are in very good cap health long term. Your point that Schaub's first three years in his deal (which is 1/2 of Flacco's in totality) cost the same amount as Flacco's against the cap the first couple seasons, illustrates why Baltimore is less healthy than Houston regarding the cap. The Texans don't have any of those monster numbers coming due. And, any of the players that have significant contracts- and may not be living up to them, can be cut from the team for a net cap savings (Joseph, ASmith, OD, Schaub, Manning, etc..)

Schaub, for instance, can be cut after this season, count $10 million against the cap and then the Texans would be clear of his contract. Flacco, if he is cut before year 5 of his 6 year deal, will cost the Ravens $30+ in dead money. And, even if they don't cut him, he will cost them $30 million in cap costs in years 4, 5, 6.

Yes I am the guy. The general consenus is the Salary Cap next year will be very close to what is was this year. It would be foolhardy to plan differently.

Then why will the cap go up significantly in 2015? Conventional wisdom says the NFL will expand regular season games to 17 or 18 in 2015. In order to do this owners will need approval of the NFLPA. How do the owners get approval from the players? Significant increase in the salary cap, more money for everyone. In other words, money talks BS walks. Basic logic.

I haven't made up any numbers.

Regarding the long term health of the Texans salary cap you describe, that simply is not true. 2014 is as bad as 2013, Texans will have to replace 15 contracts w/ only $8 million available cap dollars. That averages to just over $500K per contract. That's not enough to meet the basic minimum obligations. 2015 is worse.

You keep talking about cutting Flacco and how much it would cost. Why would they want to cut Flacco? He's a Super Bowl winning QB. All he's done since joining the Ravens is go to the playoffs every year.

Here is something most fans don't realize, it's going to cost as much to sign JJ Watt as it cost to sign Joe Flacco and the Texans still don't have a QB.

Texian
10-26-2013, 11:51 PM
With that statement, do you think Parcells was also managing the cap?

That whole statement by Kraft is just saying that Belichick understood a reality a lot of football people refused to accept for a long time.

keep reading

dalemurphy
10-27-2013, 01:30 AM
Yes I am the guy. The general consenus is the Salary Cap next year will be very close to what is was this year. It would be foolhardy to plan differently.

Then why will the cap go up significantly in 2015? Conventional wisdom says the NFL will expand regular season games to 17 or 18 in 2015. In order to do this owners will need approval of the NFLPA. How do the owners get approval from the players? Significant increase in the salary cap, more money for everyone. In other words, money talks BS walks. Basic logic.

I haven't made up any numbers.

Regarding the long term health of the Texans salary cap you describe, that simply is not true. 2014 is as bad as 2013, Texans will have to replace 15 contracts w/ only $8 million available cap dollars. That averages to just over $500K per contract. That's not enough to meet the basic minimum obligations. 2015 is worse.

You keep talking about cutting Flacco and how much it would cost. Why would they want to cut Flacco? He's a Super Bowl winning QB. All he's done since joining the Ravens is go to the playoffs every year.

Here is something most fans don't realize, it's going to cost as much to sign JJ Watt as it cost to sign Joe Flacco and the Texans still don't have a QB.

You would cut Flacco for the following reasons:

1. He became ineffective.
2. He suffered injuries that made him ineffective.
3. He wasn't worth $30 million against the cap each year.

Can you read the future and say that none of those things will happen in two, three, or four years?

Also, regarding the Texans cap in 2014, the Texans could make the following cuts: OD, Ed Reed, JJoseph, D. Manning, and add $25 million in free cap space. So, if the cap jumps for all 32 teams in the NFL in 2015 (and not just all the teams except Houston, as you have apparently been led to believe), by the time they need to sign JJ Watt to a new deal, they would have close to $60 million in cap space, and that is if they don't cut Schaub next year and get him off the books while saving another $4 million in cap room.

The Texans can be as agile as they determine prudent for the next three or four off-seasons with their roster and personnel decisions with little cap ramification. Here is the link to see their cap situation next year for anyone interested in the facts:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/cap-hit/2014/

notice that most of the large cap hits also have a very low dead money number attached to them. In other words, there are two important numbers on the chart:

1. the 2014 cap figure- which shows how much the player, as the contract is currently structured, will count against next year's cap if he is on the roster.

2. the dead money number- How much the player will count against the cap if he is cut or traded and not on the 53 man roster.