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View Full Version : Coaching Leadership, would like to see it


El Tejano
10-15-2013, 09:18 AM
In the past 3 weeks I've seen two coaches, Pete Carroll and Jeff Fisher, rally their troops. Pete Carroll did it in the 4th quarter when he saw his team cut down a lead, and Fis
her did it when he smelled blood in the water and felt he could come out of the game with a win. Fisher probably thought to himself that his team was young enough to give up a lead so why not rally the troops and get everyone on the same mindset.

I have yet to see Kubiak do that this season when his team needed it the most.

Some may say 'you are screwed already if you have to rally the troops' but I think a coach has to rise to the occasion when he sees his team getting beat and not looking like they want to try.Talk about winning the game and how that's more important and that we still can win etc.... Instead we just see him looking mad on the sideline.


http://http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/1/16/116f76b8-6bed-5945-a867-441a7cd2769b/52465e24d45bd.preview-620.jpg

kingtexan
10-15-2013, 09:25 AM
Coaching leadership to me is defined by making the correct decisions at the appropriate time, and sometimes those are not only hard decisions, but may be unpopular. If he starts Case this week then I will have much more respect for Gary than I do now. We have seen what we have with Eeyore and TJ, its time to shake things up and see if a spark can be lit.

bigmck
10-15-2013, 09:31 AM
What ever the definition is, we don't have it. This guy should have never been given the extention.

bOODRO87
10-15-2013, 09:34 AM
I said to my friend when Fisher had his team around him that that's what a real coach acts like. Of course my friend says, "Yeah, but how many wins does he have." He also thinks we should trade for a QB instead of drafting one because we are in "win now" mode.

:mariopalm:

IlliniJen
10-15-2013, 09:40 AM
You are NEVER going to see fired up leadership from Coach Milquetoast or Matt Shrug. They form a deadly combination of "meh" when you need a "let's go out there and kick some butt!"

Mr teX
10-15-2013, 09:43 AM
the "spark" argument is so overplayed. It'd be 1 thing if this team was playing well in every other facet of this game & just needed something to jump start the offense. That's not the case with this team.


inept quarterbacking
predictable & unimaginative playcalling
o-line isn't playing well at all
offense overall stagnates in the red zone
We don't create TO's
pass rush is anemic
defense on the whole can't keep anyone out of the red zone
.
.
.
penalties...too many at inappropriate times
Special teams are a joke

& all that isn't even mentioning the slug of a head coach we have.

A spark can definitely help with 2 of those things...maybe it can mask another. The rest are overall problems that don't project to be helped by a spark.'

Lastly, a "spark" is just that. A spark....as in temporary. We don't need a spark we need a permanent flame...a good head coach is usually the guy that keeps that flame permanently burning within his team...we don't have that...we have a guy who can't keep that flame going on his own..& only keeps it going b/c the owner keeps giving him lighter fluid.

Sigma
10-15-2013, 09:53 AM
the "spark" argument is so overplayed. It'd be 1 thing if this team was playing well in every other facet of this game & just needed something to jump start the offense. That's not the case with this team.


inept quarterbacking
predictable & unimaginative playcalling
o-line isn't playing well at all
offense overall stagnates in the red zone
We don't create TO's
pass rush is anemic
defense on the whole can't keep anyone out of the red zone
.
.
.
penalties...too many at inappropriate times
Special teams are a joke

& all that isn't even mentioning the slug of a head coach we have.

A spark can definitely help with 2 of those things...maybe it can mask another. The rest are overall problems that don't project to be helped by a spark.'

Lastly, a "spark" is just that. A spark....as in temporary. We don't need a spark we need a permanent flame...a good head coach is usually the guy that keeps that flame permanently burning within his team.

I think the spark metaphore is pretty good, noone assure you that a spark could generate a roaring fire, but still you have to start from something.

maybe the team is bad just because players are bad, or maybe the team have good elements but they need something to get them to play at the level they're capable of.

IlliniJen
10-15-2013, 10:08 AM
the "spark" argument is so overplayed. It'd be 1 thing if this team was playing well in every other facet of this game & just needed something to jump start the offense. That's not the case with this team.


inept quarterbacking
predictable & unimaginative playcalling
o-line isn't playing well at all
offense overall stagnates in the red zone
We don't create TO's
pass rush is anemic
defense on the whole can't keep anyone out of the red zone
.
.
.
penalties...too many at inappropriate times
Special teams are a joke

& all that isn't even mentioning the slug of a head coach we have.

A spark can definitely help with 2 of those things...maybe it can mask another. The rest are overall problems that don't project to be helped by a spark.'

Lastly, a "spark" is just that. A spark....as in temporary. We don't need a spark we need a permanent flame...a good head coach is usually the guy that keeps that flame permanently burning within his team...we don't have that...we have a guy who can't keep that flame going on his own..& only keeps it going b/c the owner keeps giving him lighter fluid.

Leadership isn't just about supplying an emotional spark, it's about providing a psychological edge and getting your team ready to COMPETE every single week. Look at the mistakes (penalties) all over the field. And take a look at a long-running issue with the team not being ready to play in the first half of games. That's leadership...or rather...a lack of leadership. This coaching staff is just not getting their players to be mentally sharp.

Kubiak has a system, and he doesn't deviate from that system. At some point, predictability and complacency start to plague a system that isn't seeing success. I'm sure he probably approaches practices the same way every day, never questioning if something needs to be radically changed up because it's his "system," and he believes in it so thoroughly that he's blind to its glaring weaknesses.

You can see the inherent issues that Kubiak has with his placing faith in something and basically "setting it and forgetting it." It's not only his playcalling. Remember Richard Smith. Now Marciano. And Schaub. Kubiak has ZERO flexibility, zero adaptability. Good leaders are also creative leaders and leadership is not just about guidance, it's about contingency plans and getting out of jams. Thinking on one's feet.

Kubiak can't do any of that stuff. He. Has. His. System. The only reason he hasn't bronzed that damn Denny's menu of boring plays yet is that it would probably be too heavy to hold on the sidelines the whole game.

He needs to go. Go on, git.

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 10:13 AM
Coaching leadership to me is defined by making the correct decisions at the appropriate time, and sometimes those are not only hard decisions, but may be unpopular. If he starts Case this week then I will have much more respect for Gary than I do now. We have seen what we have with Eeyore and TJ, its time to shake things up and see if a spark can be lit.



Starting Case would show a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. At best if you are a Case fan you would want to give him weeks of snaps with the 1st teamers in practice so if he starts it should be after the bye

Mr teX
10-15-2013, 10:20 AM
Leadership isn't just about supplying an emotional spark, it's about providing a psychological edge and getting your team ready to COMPETE every single week. Look at the mistakes (penalties) all over the field. And take a look at a long-running issue with the team not being ready to play in the first half of games. That's leadership...or rather...a lack of leadership. This coaching staff is just not getting their players to be mentally sharp.

Kubiak has a system, and he doesn't deviate from that system. At some point, predictability and complacency start to plague a system that isn't seeing success. I'm sure he probably approaches practices the same way every day, never questioning if something needs to be radically changed up because it's his "system," and he believes in it so thoroughly that he's blind to its glaring weaknesses.

You can see the inherent issues that Kubiak has with his placing faith in something and basically "setting it and forgetting it." It's not only his playcalling. Remember Richard Smith. Now Marciano. And Schaub. Kubiak has ZERO flexibility, zero adaptability. Good leaders are also creative leaders and leadership is not just about guidance, it's about contingency plans and getting out of jams. Thinking on one's feet.

Kubiak can't do any of that stuff. He. Has. His. System. The only reason he hasn't bronzed that damn Denny's menu of boring plays yet is that it would probably be too heavy to hold on the sidelines the whole game.

He needs to go. Go on, git.

Couldn't agree more and really that was my overal point, MSR. After 8 years, you can't hide this team's overall issues anymore.

thunderkyss
10-15-2013, 10:41 AM
In all honesty, I want to see the team ask the fans for their support. I want Kubiak & Schaub especially to come out & say, "We screwed up. We're sorry. I promise to do my best from here on out. You will see a difference in the way I play/coach. But I'm human, there will still be some mistakes. I need your support.

"Our goals have not changed, we want to win you a championship. But we're going to need your help. Not just on Sunday, but all week. Monday to Sunday we need your support.

"Thank you."

Mr teX
10-15-2013, 10:49 AM
In all honesty, I want to see the team ask the fans for their support. I want Kubiak & Schaub especially to come out & say, "We screwed up. We're sorry. I promise to do my best from here on out. You will see a difference in the way I play/coach. But I'm human, there will still be some mistakes. I need your support.

"Our goals have not changed, we want to win you a championship. But we're going to need your help. Not just on Sunday, but all week. Monday to Sunday we need your support.

"Thank you."

Appeal to the masses eh? Well, i guess if we're in fairy tale land, that might work for like a week...then after a really bad loss where the same issues crop up that have been plaguing this team, then what would he do? Start taking calls on the radio about starting line up changes? Taking advice from fans is the absolute worst thing he could do as the leader of this team.

As it is him starting Case Keenum proports to be the equivalent of a Hail Mary for this season.

bOODRO87
10-15-2013, 10:56 AM
Yeah, we don't pay you millions for you to publicly ask for support. Your pay check should be way more than enough. A coach should never have to do that and I'm sure that would be the last nail.

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 10:58 AM
Yeah, we don't pay you millions for you to publicly ask for support. Your pay check should be way more than enough. A coach should never have to do that and I'm sure that would be the last nail.



Envy can be an evil thing

Kaiser Toro
10-15-2013, 11:03 AM
Starting Case would show a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. At best if you are a Case fan you would want to give him weeks of snaps with the 1st teamers in practice so if he starts it should be after the bye

Or, it comes down to who Kubiak thinks give this team not just an opportunity to pull out a win, but provide a spark on offense. That choice is Yates or Keenum due to the injury. Yates got snaps on Sunday, give Keenum the snaps this week and make the call.

Seems pretty simple...for a leader.

thunderkyss
10-15-2013, 11:13 AM
Yeah, we don't pay you millions for you to publicly ask for support. Your pay check should be way more than enough. A coach should never have to do that and I'm sure that would be the last nail.

I need to know they're playing for more than a paycheck.

cuppacoffee
10-15-2013, 11:15 AM
Appeal to the masses eh? Well, i guess if we're in fairy tale land, that might work for like a week...then after a really bad loss where the same issues crop up that have been plaguing this team, then what would he do? Start taking calls on the radio about starting line up changes? Taking advice from fans is the absolute worst thing he could do as the leader of this team.

As it is him starting Case Keenum proports to be the equivalent of a Hail Mary for this season.


I suspect the rest of the season will be Cases training camp, and yes, it is a hail Mary move.

Gotta know if we have to go all out for a qb in the next draft.

Our own version of "suck for Luck". But I honestly don't see anyone remotely resembling Luck being available.

Schaub will probably be ir'd the rest of the year. Then gone.



My :twocents: :coffee:

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 11:21 AM
Or, it comes down to who Kubiak thinks give this team not just an opportunity to pull out a win, but provide a spark on offense. That choice is Yates or Keenum due to the injury. Yates got snaps on Sunday, give Keenum the snaps this week and make the call.

Seems pretty simple...for a leader.




A week of snaps for someone who has taken zero, that should be enough

Kaiser Toro
10-15-2013, 11:25 AM
A week of snaps for someone who has taken zero, that should be enough

Just to be on the same page as you, how many snaps does one need to be enough? Has Yates had that amount of snaps this year?

silvrhand
10-15-2013, 11:27 AM
Leadership isn't just about supplying an emotional spark, it's about providing a psychological edge and getting your team ready to COMPETE every single week. Look at the mistakes (penalties) all over the field. And take a look at a long-running issue with the team not being ready to play in the first half of games. That's leadership...or rather...a lack of leadership. This coaching staff is just not getting their players to be mentally sharp.

Kubiak has a system, and he doesn't deviate from that system. At some point, predictability and complacency start to plague a system that isn't seeing success. I'm sure he probably approaches practices the same way every day, never questioning if something needs to be radically changed up because it's his "system," and he believes in it so thoroughly that he's blind to its glaring weaknesses.

You can see the inherent issues that Kubiak has with his placing faith in something and basically "setting it and forgetting it." It's not only his playcalling. Remember Richard Smith. Now Marciano. And Schaub. Kubiak has ZERO flexibility, zero adaptability. Good leaders are also creative leaders and leadership is not just about guidance, it's about contingency plans and getting out of jams. Thinking on one's feet.

Kubiak can't do any of that stuff. He. Has. His. System. The only reason he hasn't bronzed that damn Denny's menu of boring plays yet is that it would probably be too heavy to hold on the sidelines the whole game.

He needs to go. Go on, git.

MSR...

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 11:28 AM
Just to be on the same page as you, how many snaps does one need to be enough? Has Yates had that amount of snaps this year?


Im not sure how many Yates has but Id guess its more than zero. Also I said if you liked Case you would want him to get the two weeks worth of work before hand. If you throw him out in KC and his ass gets handed to him that could very well be his only chance in the NFL

bOODRO87
10-15-2013, 11:33 AM
I need to know they're playing for more than a paycheck.

I think that should be covered during the interview and coach's resume should show that. I get what you're saying but, it should never have to come to that, especially with the talent we have.

Surreal McCoy
10-15-2013, 11:34 AM
Appeal to the masses eh? Well, i guess if we're in fairy tale land, that might work for like a week...

But Al Pacino's Any Given Sunday style speeches will work, huh?

:mariopalm:

Kaiser Toro
10-15-2013, 12:07 PM
Im not sure how many Yates has but Id guess its more than zero. Also I said if you liked Case you would want him to get the two weeks worth of work before hand. If you throw him out in KC and his ass gets handed to him that could very well be his only chance in the NFL

I saw Keenum in the preseason and his skillset seemed to be a better fit for this offense. His effort or potential earned him a spot on this team - decided by his coach, who some folks deem as a developer of QBs. The two QBs above Keenum on the depth chart are not capable of adding value to this offense based on injury and performance.

I really don't care about Keenum getting work, this is more than that- it is next man up. Yates knows what that means, just as Leinart did in 2011.

Put him in, and put it back on the other 52 guys to raise their game up. Unless Kubiak thinks his system, if executed properly, is the only thing that will get this team out of the funk.

DBCooper
10-15-2013, 12:08 PM
Cowher.

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 12:11 PM
I saw Keenum in the preseason and his skillset seemed to be a better fit for this offense. His effort or potential earned him a spot on this team - decided by his coach, who some folks deem as a developer of QBs. The two QBs above Keenum on the depth chart are not capable of adding value to this offense based on injury and performance.

I really don't care about Keenum getting work, this is more than that- it is next man up. Yates knows what that means, just as Leinart did in 2011.

Put him in, and put it back on the other 52 guys to raise their game up. Unless Kubiak thinks his system, if executed properly, is the only thing that will get this team out of the funk.




Well that awesome preseason performance was only enough to earn him the #3 and it was the same QB coaching talents you speak of that put him #3, kept him there and put Yates in Sunday.

Kaiser Toro
10-15-2013, 12:18 PM
Well that awesome preseason performance was only enough to earn him the #3 and it was the same QB coaching talents you speak of that put him #3, kept him there and put Yates in Sunday.

What do you propose? And what results do you expect?

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 12:21 PM
What do you propose? And what results do you expect?



If you think Case is the answer you let yates get the rough end of the stick sunday and you give Case two weeks to get ready. The results? Losses. Thats a typical outcome with 2nd and 3rd stringers coming is. See Yates record as a starter for recent history

Fred
10-15-2013, 12:26 PM
See Yates record as a starter for recent history

Keenum's record as a starter: 31-11.

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 12:27 PM
Keenum's record as a starter: 31-11.



in the nfl? Oh wait you are talking about meaningless college stats

bigmck
10-15-2013, 12:29 PM
In Kubiak's press conference yesterday, he was asked who would start this week and responded that he would see how Schaub was at the end of the week. I think that tells us everything. If Schaub is healthy, he starts. Kubes is just digging his own grave.

Vinny
10-15-2013, 12:30 PM
Keenum's record as a starter: 31-11.

Vince Young's record was better, plus a National Championship. Yeah, that matters in this league.

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 12:32 PM
In Kubiak's press conference yesterday, he was asked who would start this week and responded that he would see how Schaub was at the end of the week. I think that tells us everything. If Schaub is healthy, he starts. Kubes is just digging his own grave.



or maybe it means even as a gimp Schaub is the best the Texans have

hookinreds
10-15-2013, 12:43 PM
Just to be on the same page as you, how many snaps does one need to be enough? Has Yates had that amount of snaps this year?

Mr. Owl, how many snaps does it take in order to determine if a QB is ready for primetime?

A one
A two
A three
CRUNCH!!!

Three!
http://m1.ourstage.com/tb/PYPBLCESUFEI-large.jpg

cstyle42
10-15-2013, 12:53 PM
Keenum is the only QB on the team that has a legit chance to truly lead this team from the qb position. Keenum best case scenerio is he is a game savior that can run when needed and make good passes and decisions. Keenum worst case scenerio is unknown. Yates best case scenario is a game manager not making turnovers but we don't win. Yates worst case scenario is what we saw this past sunday. Schaub's best case scenario is he is a game manager that doesn't turnover the football but we don't win. Schaub's worst case scenerio is pick 6 and sacks all day long. In this situation you go with Keenum.

MEGA SWATT
10-15-2013, 12:55 PM
:kubepalm: "I just got to keep Battling"..........:kubepalm:

Mr teX
10-15-2013, 01:16 PM
Keenum is the only QB on the team that has a legit chance to truly lead this team from the qb position. Keenum best case scenerio is he is a game savior that can run when needed and make good passes and decisions. Keenum worst case scenerio is unknown. Yates best case scenario is a game manager not making turnovers but we don't win. Yates worst case scenario is what we saw this past sunday. Schaub's best case scenario is he is a game manager that doesn't turnover the football but we don't win. Schaub's worst case scenerio is pick 6 and sacks all day long. In this situation you go with Keenum.

Again..............for the 300th time.................... what on earth could you possibly be basing the bolded statement on? What has he done in the NFL to keep making this statement? You guys keep saying this & you have 0 to hang your hat on....making it seem like this is Doug Flutie coming back to the NFL after winning all kinds of grey cups in the CFL.

His physical skill set? Ok, there are lots of guys in the NFL (& out of the NFL) with his skill set..some of them have even better skill sets...So what? It does not project them to be NFL quality starters.

Don't get me wrong, i would want nothing more than my fellow Coog to come in, take this team by the reigns & lead us to the playoffs & be the guy for the next 10 years. But it flies completely in the face of logic to say the bolded. There is nothing on his NFL resume to indicate that & you guys have to stop with the hyperbole.


It doesn't mean you don't give him a shot....

It doesn't mean that the potential isn't there.....

It doesn't mean that he can't become a quality NFL starter...

kingtexan
10-15-2013, 01:43 PM
A week of snaps for someone who has taken zero, that should be enough

Yeah because he has never played football before.

Was he on your badminton squad previously?

Oh wait, he has played a little ball ...

kingtexan
10-15-2013, 01:47 PM
Well that awesome preseason performance was only enough to earn him the #3 and it was the same QB coaching talents you speak of that put him #3, kept him there and put Yates in Sunday.

We all know the only reason Case was #3 is Kubiak has this ignorant regard for veteran seniority, and places more weight in how long someone has been around than in what they are able to do. If the contest was just who is the best QB, Case would have started from day one.

kingtexan
10-15-2013, 01:48 PM
Again..............for the 300th time.................... what on earth could you possibly be basing the bolded statement on?

Having the gift of sight ...

Fred
10-15-2013, 01:59 PM
in the nfl? Oh wait you are talking about meaningless college stats

Only data we have. He has never lost an NFL start. Your main argument is that Keenum should not start because Yates has a bad record as a starter. Brillant.

Or your backup argument that no one should start until they have had 3 weeks working with the starters. Since the only person who has worked with the starters before this week is injured I guess you want to punt on 1st down every time next week (which would cut down on the pick 6s but I'm not that confident about the coverage team).

Mr teX
10-15-2013, 02:06 PM
Having the gift of sight ...

yeah...well if your gift of sight was so grand, you'd "see" everything Case did in preseason was against alot of guys who are either sitting at home with us watching the games or are so far buried under the bench most of their own teams' fans don't even know they're still on the team.

i mean i get it...there are 2 sides to the potential thing here.

"A wise man sees as much as he ought, not as much as he can." crowd...

Then there's

"potential just means you haven't done anything" crowd...

But the latter usually happens far more often than than the former....

BullNation4Life
10-15-2013, 02:07 PM
In the past 3 weeks I've seen two coaches, Pete Carroll and Jeff Fisher, rally their troops. Pete Carroll did it in the 4th quarter when he saw his team cut down a lead, and Fis
her did it when he smelled blood in the water and felt he could come out of the game with a win. Fisher probably thought to himself that his team was young enough to give up a lead so why not rally the troops and get everyone on the same mindset.

I have yet to see Kubiak do that this season when his team needed it the most.

Some may say 'you are screwed already if you have to rally the troops' but I think a coach has to rise to the occasion when he sees his team getting beat and not looking like they want to try.Talk about winning the game and how that's more important and that we still can win etc.... Instead we just see him looking mad on the sideline.


http://http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/1/16/116f76b8-6bed-5945-a867-441a7cd2769b/52465e24d45bd.preview-620.jpg

Past 3 weeks? how about the past 8 years? I have seen coaches come into a new team, rally them into a frenzy and within a year or so, in the Super Bowl. Gary Kubiak hasn't been able to do that for 8 years now and he will never be able to do it.

Gary Kubiak has absolutely ZERO motivation skills.

Fred
10-15-2013, 02:15 PM
Again..............for the 300th time.................... what on earth could you possibly be basing the bolded statement on? What has he done in the NFL to keep making this statement? You guys keep saying this & you have 0 to hang your hat on...

Don't get me wrong, i would want nothing more than my fellow Coog to come in, take this team by the reigns & lead us to the playoffs & be the guy for the next 10 years. But it flies completely in the face of logic to say the bolded. There is nothing on his NFL resume to indicate that & you guys have to stop with the hyperbole.


It doesn't mean you don't give him a shot....

It doesn't mean that the potential isn't there.....

It doesn't mean that he can't become a quality NFL starter...

I agree that Keenum has done zero in the NFL. But the statement that he is the only one who can (possibly) do anything positive is 100% correct because we have seen the other guys play and we are certain they are worse than zero. Will Keenum ever be better than, say Christian Ponder? I doubt it, but he's the only person on the Texans roster with a chance of it (at least until Owen Daniels gets off IR).

And most people arguing against him ARE saying he should NEVER get a shot.

cstyle42
10-15-2013, 02:16 PM
[QUOTE=Mr teX;2230342]Again..............for the 300th time.................... what on earth could you possibly be basing the bolded statement on? What has he done in the NFL to keep making this statement? You guys keep saying this & you have 0 to hang your hat on....making it seem like this is Doug Flutie coming back to the NFL after winning all kinds of grey cups in the CFL.

His physical skill set? Ok, there are lots of guys in the NFL (& out of the NFL) with his skill set..some of them have even better skill sets...So what? It does not project them to be NFL quality starters.

Don't get me wrong, i would want nothing more than my fellow Coog to come in, take this team by the reigns & lead us to the playoffs & be the guy for the next 10 years. But it flies completely in the face of logic to say the bolded. There is nothing on his NFL resume to indicate that & you guys have to stop with the hyperbole.

Keenum's unknown is not a no. It's known Schaub and Yates cannot do it at this point. Therefore as of right now Keenum is the only one possible. Once he plays we will see. How did you know which qb's would be good, great or trash? They had to play whether if they were believed in or not. Keenum has shown greater potential than Schaub and Yates as quarterbacks this year for where the nfl is right now at that position.

TexansSeminole
10-15-2013, 03:10 PM
How can you possibly know that Yates can't win games? He was put in a horrible position last week with what was probably less than five first-string practice snaps. Both Case and Yates have earned a shot, whether Schaub was injured or not. Yates more so than Keenum at this point, in my opinion.

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 03:17 PM
Only data we have. He has never lost an NFL start. Your main argument is that Keenum should not start because Yates has a bad record as a starter. Brillant.

Or your backup argument that no one should start until they have had 3 weeks working with the starters. Since the only person who has worked with the starters before this week is injured I guess you want to punt on 1st down every time next week (which would cut down on the pick 6s but I'm not that confident about the coverage team).



My backup argument? What are you talking about? I said if you really like Case his best bet is the let TJ get smashed this weekend and take two full weeks to get ready. I never said you had to have the snaps but it certainly makes sense

Double Barrel
10-15-2013, 03:27 PM
Man, this is depressing.

Seeing fans argue about starting an untested 3rd string QB as our only hope to salvage a 2-4 season that is circling the drain inspires nothing positive in me.

Seriously, I hope for the best with Keenum, as well. But, let's be pragmatic about it. He's undrafted, practice squad, 3rd string for a reason.

And the weird thing is seeing Case supporters rip Kubiak. If you're honest about it, Kubiak is the ONLY reason Keenum has even the slightest chance to take a snap in the NFL. 31 team have passed on him for years. But, I'm sure if Case fails, it will be blamed on Kubiak, regardless of the fact that Kubiak is the only coach in the league that has any belief in him.

What an effed up paradox for a season that was supposed to start with high hopes.

At this point, I say start Keenum, just because it does feel that desperate right now. At least we can see what the kid is made of and get all the hopeful speculation to calm down in the face of actual game performance.

Heck, he can't do any worse than Schaub has been.

HOU-TEX
10-15-2013, 03:39 PM
Man, this is depressing.

Seeing fans argue about starting an untested 3rd string QB as our only hope to salvage a 2-4 season that is circling the drain inspires nothing positive in me.

Seriously, I hope for the best with Keenum, as well. But, let's be pragmatic about it. He's undrafted, practice squad, 3rd string for a reason.

And the weird thing is seeing Case supporters rip Kubiak. If you're honest about it, Kubiak is the ONLY reason Keenum has even the slightest chance to take a snap in the NFL. 31 team have passed on him for years. But, I'm sure if Case fails, it will be blamed on Kubiak, regardless of the fact that Kubiak is the only coach in the league that has any belief in him.

What an effed up paradox for a season that was supposed to start with high hopes.

At this point, I say start Keenum, just because it does feel that desperate right now. At least we can see what the kid is made of and get all the hopeful speculation to calm down in the face of actual game performance.

Heck, he can't do any worse than Schaub has been.

Yeppers! Let's see, we have an immobile starter that's been Carr'd and has a bad wheel. A #2 who tries his darndest to emulate the starter. And a #3 who's never seen action during the regular season, but threw a dandy of a pass on 4th down during preseason.

Yup, give the #3 a shot. Holy moly. We should've given Lechler a shot the other day. At least he was dressed out.

Lol! I don't know why...but I still think we can win this Sunday.

disaacks3
10-15-2013, 03:40 PM
Well that awesome preseason performance was only enough to earn him the #3 and it was the same QB coaching talents you speak of that put him #3, kept him there and put Yates in Sunday. I'm sure it couldn't have anything to do with one being drafted and the other being an UDFA. Nah, we've never had a skill position on Offense decided by that criteria...oh wait.

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 03:44 PM
I'm sure it couldn't have anything to do with one being drafted and the other being an UDFA. Nah, we've never had a skill position on Offense decided by that criteria...oh wait.



Couldnt be fans over thinking it could it?

Double Barrel
10-15-2013, 03:45 PM
Yeppers! Let's see, we have an immobile starter that's been Carr'd and has a bad wheel. A #2 who tries his darndest to emulate the starter. And a #3 who's never seen action during the regular season, but threw a dandy of a pass on 4th down during preseason.

Yup, give the #3 a shot. Holy moly. We should've given Lechler a shot the other day. At least he was dressed out.

Lol! I don't know why...but I still think we can win this Sunday.

yeah, it's weird. I kinda' feel the same way. *puff puff pass*

If I was a betting man, my money would be on the Chiefs.

However, as a Texans fan, I do not feel completely hopeless about this game.

Maybe this is how those people in Pompeii felt when they thought they heard thunder?

HOU-TEX
10-15-2013, 03:54 PM
yeah, it's weird. I kinda' feel the same way. *puff puff pass*

If I was a betting man, my money would be on the Chiefs.

However, as a Texans fan, I do not feel completely hopeless about this game.

Maybe this is how those people in Pompeii felt when they thought they heard thunder?

Strange, for sure

*Off topic* I've been to Pompeii. Amazing! The way artifacts were preserved by ash and seeing them in real life was awe-inspiring.

hradhak
10-15-2013, 04:04 PM
Yates or Keenum will likely not spark this 2-4 team into the playoffs. And I agree that Yates was put in a bad situation last week. Even so, your job as a backup is to be ready to play when the #1 goes down.

Yates stepped in and looked like Schaub in SF. He didn't go through progressions and he made terrible reads on his 2 INTs

I think whoever starts on Sunday is going to be in a very tough spot since KC's defense is pretty aggressive. Our game plan needs to get a lot more creative than what's we've been trotting out there if we even wanna contend.

disaacks3
10-15-2013, 04:09 PM
Couldnt be fans over thinking it could it? Or Kubiak under-thinking it? Schaub isn't right in the head (not to mention the ankle) and we've seen just how high that Yates ceiling goes.

I was all for letting Case have another season on the bench to learn, but it all depends on whether you think the current #1 & #2 can get it done.

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 04:24 PM
Or Kubiak under-thinking it? Schaub isn't right in the head (not to mention the ankle) and we've seen just how high that Yates ceiling goes.

I was all for letting Case have another season on the bench to learn, but it all depends on whether you think the current #1 & #2 can get it done.



Truth is back then foster wasnt showing up like he should to practice and that played into his udfa/vet issue. Odds are Case is not another Foster, nfl history would put odds in that favor too. Odds are fans are reaching for an unknown

IlliniJen
10-15-2013, 04:26 PM
Yates or Keenum will likely not spark this 2-4 team into the playoffs. And I agree that Yates was put in a bad situation last week. Even so, your job as a backup is to be ready to play when the #1 goes down.

Yates stepped in and looked like Schaub in SF. He didn't go through progressions and he made terrible reads on his 2 INTs

I think whoever starts on Sunday is going to be in a very tough spot since KC's defense is pretty aggressive. Our game plan needs to get a lot more creative than what's we've been trotting out there if we even wanna contend.

Yates played scared, much like Schaub does. And playing scaredy-cat check-down ball in a painfully predictable scheme like ol' Coach Milquetoast's, well, you're going to get pick 6's left and right. Because the same checkdown to the flat receiver that Kubes calls for Schaub will be called for Yates. Believe in The System, people! The System! The System! The s y s t e m....

Meanwhile, Case may not have that same playing scared mentality because, let's face it, he was undrafted. No one REALLY thinks he can play at the pro level. He has nothing to lose and everything to gain. That makes him dangerous. In both a good and a bad way. And hell, I'll take flaming out in spectacular fashion with an undrafted 3rd stringer who will wing the ball 50 yards down field rather than death by a thousand paper cuts...or in this case, death by a thousand dink and dunk passes 4 yards behind the first down marker.

Kaiser Toro
10-15-2013, 04:51 PM
Yates or Keenum will likely not spark this 2-4 team into the playoffs. And I agree that Yates was put in a bad situation last week. Even so, your job as a backup is to be ready to play when the #1 goes down.

Yates stepped in and looked like Schaub in SF. He didn't go through progressions and he made terrible reads on his 2 INTs

I think whoever starts on Sunday is going to be in a very tough spot since KC's defense is pretty aggressive. Our game plan needs to get a lot more creative than what's we've been trotting out there if we even wanna contend.

I don't expect Keenum to spark this team into the playoffs - in other words, sustaining a prospective good showing in a debut. But I am hoping that he pumps some life into some players, so that they can believe again. If that means a healthy Schuab steps back in a few games later - fine.

Right now, this team needs a jolt. They need something to make them believe again.

disaacks3
10-15-2013, 05:02 PM
Odds are fans are reaching for an unknown When the known is currently awful...why not?

2012Champs
10-15-2013, 05:17 PM
When the known is currently awful...why not?

Coaches tend to have more insight then fans.

Mr teX
10-15-2013, 05:39 PM
I don't expect Keenum to spark this team into the playoffs - in other words, sustaining a prospective good showing in a debut. But I am hoping that he pumps some life into some players, so that they can believe again. If that means a healthy Schuab steps back in a few games later - fine.

Right now, this team needs a jolt. They need something to make them believe again.

Once the decision is made to bench schaub........and jump over yates to Keenum.....there shouldn't be any going back to Schaub or Yates unless an injury occurs. I mean what kind of confidence does it inspire in your team when you as the coach can't even make up your mind who should be your starter at the most important position on the team?

Along with the fact that its still early in the season, and the texans arent mathematcally eliminated from the playoffs I think thats the biggest part of why Kubiak is prolonging making the move to Keenum..........as he should.

burro
10-15-2013, 06:07 PM
Starting Case would show a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. At best if you are a Case fan you would want to give him weeks of snaps with the 1st teamers in practice so if he starts it should be after the bye

Yates has thrown 9 INTs in his last 12 appearances; considering his myriad other similarities to Schaub - I don't see how sending TJ out to further demonstrate his ineptitude shows leadership on Kubiak's part

A HC's job is to put the best men on the field, develop a winning game plan, and then execute and adjust that game plan as need be to win the game. We don't know whether Keenum is better than Yates or Schaub yet, but we know that there is only negligible difference between Yates and a mentally/physically broken Schaub...negligible enough for opposing defense's to implement the same game plan against either with identical success.

Starting Keenum is the only thing that Kubiak could do substantially adjust the offense without scrapping his whole system, which obviously isn't on his Denny's menu.

Mr teX
10-15-2013, 09:15 PM
Yates has thrown 9 INTs in his last 12 appearances; considering his myriad other similarities to Schaub - I don't see how sending TJ out to further demonstrate his ineptitude shows leadership on Kubiak's part

A HC's job is to put the best men on the field, develop a winning game plan, and then execute and adjust that game plan as need be to win the game. We don't know whether Keenum is better than Yates or Schaub yet, but we know that there is only negligible difference between Yates and a mentally/physically broken Schaub...negligible enough for opposing defense's to implement the same game plan against either with identical success.

Starting Keenum is the only thing that Kubiak could do substantially adjust the offense without scrapping his whole system, which obviously isn't on his Denny's menu.

Right, but neither does making panic moves either....and jumping over Yates..........the #2 qb......that you declared at the beginning of the season....in favor of your #3 wreaks of a panic move.....especially so early in the season. A big part of the reason folks declared Cleveland's season over was b/c they did exactly what you guys are advocating that kubiak do.......Furthermore, it's the last move he can make....he's gonna put it off as long as he can......cant really blame the man for that...

burro
10-15-2013, 10:43 PM
Right, but neither does making panic moves either....and jumping over Yates..........the #2 qb......that you declared at the beginning of the season....in favor of your #3 wreaks of a panic move.....especially so early in the season. A big part of the reason folks declared Cleveland's season over was b/c they did exactly what you guys are advocating that kubiak do.......Furthermore, it's the last move he can make....he's gonna put it off as long as he can......cant really blame the man for that...

It's not really a "panic move" if that #2 QB has been demonstrably terrible in the ~3 quarters that he's appeared in. Regardless - who cares what it wreaks of? I'd prefer the HC 'panic' and drop the awful #2 (no pun intended) for the unknown quantity at #3 rather than stubbornly stick with the awful #2 because he declared him the #2 and doesn't want to lose face. If we are going to rag on Kubiak for sticking with players for too long, it's only fair to point out that Yates is no insurance policy to brag about.

Fred
10-15-2013, 10:50 PM
How can you possibly know that Yates can't win games? Both Case and Yates have earned a shot, whether Schaub was injured or not. Yates more so than Keenum at this point, in my opinion.

How could we possibly know? How about almost a half season of sub par play in regular season / playoff games?

T.J. Yates Career Regular Season + Playoffs
Comp Att Comp % Yards TDs INT Rating
129 . 221 . 58% . 1443 . 4 . 9 . 67

Christian Freaking Ponder 2012 Season
Comp Att Comp % Yards TDs INT Rating
300 . 483 . 62% . 2935 . 18 . 12 . 81

Yates 221 attempts - almost half a season for a "game manager" offense (221 is 46% of Ponder's 483 attempts in 2012) for a QB rating of 67. Significantly worst than, well, Christian F. Ponder! (I am trying to set the bar pretty low!) Clearly this is Schaub's worst year by far, his QB rating is 79 (14 points below his career average) and a healthy Yates can't even touch that!

You say both have earned a shot. Yates has had a pretty good shot (half a season). Do the Texans have to burn another season and a half to be sure he is worse than, well Christian F. Ponder?!?! Then two years on Keenum, so if he is no better they shouldn't draft a QB until the 2017 draft because they "deserve" a shot?

Neither one deserves anything! Yates has had a shot, he blew it. I say give Keenum a shot, not because he "deserves" anything but because Yates and Schaub have failed and we have no one else. As I said in a previous post, Keenum probably will not be better than Ponder, but he is the only person on the roster with a chance.

My backup argument? What are you talking about? I said if you really like Case his best bet is the let TJ get smashed this weekend and take two full weeks to get ready. I never said you had to have the snaps but it certainly makes sense

You never said that? Then someone hacked your account:

Starting Case would show a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. At best if you are a Case fan you would want to give him weeks of snaps with the 1st teamers in practice so if he starts it should be after the bye

Some fans want Schaub, some Yates, some Keenum, some bring in someone else - so no matter who Kubiak starts he is showing a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. I am not a Case fan, I am a Texan fan. I agree with you, if I was Case's agent or mother I would want the situation you describe and I wouldn't care that the team took another loss in the meantime.

Coaches tend to have more insight then fans.

Meh, sometimes. Maybe Keenum is butt fumbling in practice every day and the fans don't see that. But some coaches (think KUBIAK) can be myopic and the "fans" actually have a better view of the big picture.

Once the decision is made to bench schaub........and jump over yates to Keenum.....there shouldn't be any going back to Schaub or Yates unless an injury occurs. I mean what kind of confidence does it inspire in your team when you as the coach can't even make up your mind who should be your starter at the most important position on the team?

Along with the fact that its still early in the season, and the texans arent mathematcally eliminated from the playoffs I think thats the biggest part of why Kubiak is prolonging making the move to Keenum..........as he should.

What nonsense, although Kubiak's "Schaub until I die" stance does back you up. Any non-myopic coach would have benched Schaub at the half in SF and had a week to decide if Yates or Keenum started against the Rams. If the starter flopped, he could switch to the other one after the bye or even go back to Schaub (tanned, rested, and ready!)

I think the strategy of only starting guys who have proven to be inept will hasten the date of mathematical elimination from the playoffs but I don't think that should be an objective.

Right, but neither does making panic moves either....and jumping over Yates..........the #2 qb......that you declared at the beginning of the season....in favor of your #3 wreaks of a panic move.....especially so early in the season. A big part of the reason folks declared Cleveland's season over was b/c they did exactly what you guys are advocating that kubiak do.......Furthermore, it's the last move he can make....he's gonna put it off as long as he can......cant really blame the man for that...

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but starting QB and backup QB are different jobs. A reasonable argument can be made that Yates was more appropriate for the backup job, but Keenum is more appropriate for the starting job.

A big part of the reason Cleveland won 3 games was they did the right thing. (They lost this week because their "#3" was injured and they had to revert to "#1"). Not making the correct move because you are afraid someone will think you panicked is truly caving in to the opinion of the masses. Obviously Cleveland made the correct move, but you are still saying it was a bad move because even though they won on the field they were criticized off the field.

And it's not the last move, especially with Schaub being injured. If Schaub recovers, he can be brought back at any time the other QBs performance per game is worse than two INTs (one a pick 6).

TexansSeminole
10-16-2013, 12:37 AM
Right, so a quarterback is maxed out in their rookie season?

Just put Fred on the not to be taken seriously list. That entire post, and not just the part replying to me, screams "I don't know what I'm talking about."

Fred
10-16-2013, 03:30 AM
Right, so a quarterback is maxed out in their rookie season?

Just put Fred on the not to be taken seriously list. That entire post, and not just the part replying to me, screams "I don't know what I'm talking about."

Whoa, sorry Mrs. Yates, no offense intended. I'm sure your son TJ is a fine young man.

Mr teX
10-16-2013, 09:03 AM
How could we possibly know? How about almost a half season of sub par play in regular season / playoff games?

T.J. Yates Career Regular Season + Playoffs
Comp Att Comp % Yards TDs INT Rating
129 . 221 . 58% . 1443 . 4 . 9 . 67

Christian Freaking Ponder 2012 Season
Comp Att Comp % Yards TDs INT Rating
300 . 483 . 62% . 2935 . 18 . 12 . 81

Yates 221 attempts - almost half a season for a "game manager" offense (221 is 46% of Ponder's 483 attempts in 2012) for a QB rating of 67. Significantly worst than, well, Christian F. Ponder! (I am trying to set the bar pretty low!) Clearly this is Schaub's worst year by far, his QB rating is 79 (14 points below his career average) and a healthy Yates can't even touch that!

You say both have earned a shot. Yates has had a pretty good shot (half a season). Do the Texans have to burn another season and a half to be sure he is worse than, well Christian F. Ponder?!?! Then two years on Keenum, so if he is no better they shouldn't draft a QB until the 2017 draft because they "deserve" a shot?

Neither one deserves anything! Yates has had a shot, he blew it. I say give Keenum a shot, not because he "deserves" anything but because Yates and Schaub have failed and we have no one else. As I said in a previous post, Keenum probably will not be better than Ponder, but he is the only person on the roster with a chance.



You never said that? Then someone hacked your account:



Some fans want Schaub, some Yates, some Keenum, some bring in someone else - so no matter who Kubiak starts he is showing a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. I am not a Case fan, I am a Texan fan. I agree with you, if I was Case's agent or mother I would want the situation you describe and I wouldn't care that the team took another loss in the meantime.



Meh, sometimes. Maybe Keenum is butt fumbling in practice every day and the fans don't see that. But some coaches (think KUBIAK) can be myopic and the "fans" actually have a better view of the big picture.



What nonsense, although Kubiak's "Schaub until I die" stance does back you up. Any non-myopic coach would have benched Schaub at the half in SF and had a week to decide if Yates or Keenum started against the Rams. If the starter flopped, he could switch to the other one after the bye or even go back to Schaub (tanned, rested, and ready!)

I think the strategy of only starting guys who have proven to be inept will hasten the date of mathematical elimination from the playoffs but I don't think that should be an objective.



I hate to be the one to break this to you, but starting QB and backup QB are different jobs. A reasonable argument can be made that Yates was more appropriate for the backup job, but Keenum is more appropriate for the starting job.

A big part of the reason Cleveland won 3 games was they did the right thing. (They lost this week because their "#3" was injured and they had to revert to "#1"). Not making the correct move because you are afraid someone will think you panicked is truly caving in to the opinion of the masses. Obviously Cleveland made the correct move, but you are still saying it was a bad move because even though they won on the field they were criticized off the field.

And it's not the last move, especially with Schaub being injured. If Schaub recovers, he can be brought back at any time the other QBs performance per game is worse than two INTs (one a pick 6).

1st of all, they won 2 games with Hoyer..the 3rd game against Buffalo when he got injured halfway through the 1st quarter, Weeden came in and played the rest of that game..In any event, it's hardly a substantial body of work to determine that making the move to Hoyer was the right move. The other end of that is the move back to Weeden was only made b/c Hoyer got hurt...not the same situation.

And hate to break it to you, but making the move to Keenum is the last move he can make....the last new move to give this team the proverbial "spark" everyone wants anyway. People want Schaub benched b/c he's not playing well....Ok, bring in Yates...he doesn't play well & people want him benched....Ok, bring in Keenum...what move are you gonna make if he plays just as bad or worse than the 2 prior to him? What, you're gonna go back to 1 of the other 2 bad qb's you benched him for & promise "this time it's gonna be different!" yeah, i'm not taking you seriously as player at that point...if i didn't stop taking you serious prior to that.

It's the very reason why coaches are so hesitant to make qb changes during the season unless they have the clear heir apparent on the sidelines...& those guys usually are 1st-2nd round draft picks the team took the year prior. & sorry to break it to you guys but Keenum isn't in that category, he's just the alternative fans are grasping for straws at b/c they haven't seen him play in the regular season yet..

I'm gonna dismiss the numbers you put for Yates..he was a rookie & all things considered he performed admirably. Last week, he was put in a bad situation.

The comparisons to Christian Ponder.....Hey, that's what happens when teams get film on you. Ponder started out great last year....If i recall, he didn't throw an int for the 1st 3 games. teams got film on him, started figuring out his tendencies, game, set, match. It happens to every qb in this league....& it will happen to Keenum. Ultimately i'm not confident he'll be able to sustain any good play for the long haul.

disaacks3
10-16-2013, 09:34 AM
Coaches tend to have more insight then fans. Yep, the decision to trot out Schaub in SF worked so well didn't it. Tell me what pass attempt was returned for a pick 6? That's right, the first one. Had two more picks after that and hit a defender in the numbers who dropped it.

You're confusing coaches with infallible creatures. You're also confusing Kubiak with a coach who's already taken his team to the Superbowl before and thus gets the benefit of the doubt from fans and coaches alike.

To add to that, there's also several coaches who HAVE taken their teams to to Superbowl that would've benched Shaub either before the SF game, or immediately after the pick 6.

So, to which coaching insight are you referring to exactly?

2012Champs
10-16-2013, 09:50 AM
Yep, the decision to trot out Schaub in SF worked so well didn't it. Tell me what pass attempt was returned for a pick 6? That's right, the first one. Had two more picks after that and hit a defender in the numbers who dropped it.

You're confusing coaches with infallible creatures. You're also confusing Kubiak with a coach who's already taken his team to the Superbowl before and thus gets the benefit of the doubt from fans and coaches alike.

To add to that, there's also several coaches who HAVE taken their teams to to Superbowl that would've benched Shaub either before the SF game, or immediately after the pick 6.

So, to which coaching insight are you referring to exactly?




No one is infallible. I do believe however that current NFL staffs are much more informed than fans are. I do also believe that Matt Schuab even in pick 6 form was and is the best qb the team has and still the best option to win.

Kaiser Toro
10-16-2013, 10:04 AM
No one is infallible. I do believe however that current NFL staffs are much more informed than fans are. I do also believe that Matt Schuab even in pick 6 form was and is the best qb the team has and still the best option to win.

Have you ever played team sports above high school, have you ever coached team sports above high school and have you been a season ticket holder for the Texans since 2002?

Just trying to get a baseline for your experience.

2012Champs
10-16-2013, 10:30 AM
Have you ever played team sports above high school, have you ever coached team sports above high school and have you been a season ticket holder for the Texans since 2002?

Just trying to get a baseline for your experience.



The answer to all 3 questions is no much like most Texans fans. I would get some understanding as to the first two and how that would relate but being a season ticket holder would be irrelevant. I would also wager that if you, yourself could answer yes to all 3 that would still leave you behind nfl coaching staffs so as a baseline you and most other "fans" arent on par


lets build more strawmen

Mr teX
10-16-2013, 10:42 AM
Have you ever played team sports above high school, have you ever coached team sports above high school and have you been a season ticket holder for the Texans since 2002?

Just trying to get a baseline for your experience.

what does that matter? some of the best minds & coaches in sports never set foot on the field/court as a professional player (belichick, lombardi)

Double Barrel
10-16-2013, 11:09 AM
I was watching the Michael Strahan episode of "A Football Life" last night (a good one, too!), and one of the interviews made me curious.

They were talking with Jim Fassel about his tenure as HC of the Giants. He led the team to a Super Bowl in 2000 and lost to the Ravens.

But, during the interview, he mentioned his assistant coaches. His Offensive Coordinator was Sean Payton. His Defensive Coordinator was John Fox. Both went on to be head coaches in the NFL with good success (both went to the Super Bowl and Payton's team won it).

We see amazing coaching trees from great head coaches. The legends of the game - Landry, Lombardi, Gillman, Walsh, Parcells, etc. - have very successful coaching trees, often with coaches that go on to head coach and win championships.

Which brings us to Kubiak. What kind of tree does he have after 8 years in the league? I guess we can count Wade, but his resume started well before Kubiak even became an assistant coach in the league. Who else?

I'm not trying to disrespect the man. In analyzing him as a head coach, though, it is obvious that he does not hire assistants that are better at their jobs than he is at his, and his M.O. appears to be to not hire anyone that will challenge him.

This is my perception, backed by NFL history and trends. The great head coaches in NFL history hire men who possess the potential to one day take their jobs.

Kubiak? meh, not so much.

2012Champs
10-16-2013, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by 2012Champs
My backup argument? What are you talking about? I said if you really like Case his best bet is the let TJ get smashed this weekend and take two full weeks to get ready. I never said you had to have the snaps but it certainly makes sense




You never said that? Then someone hacked your account:





Originally Posted by 2012Champs
Starting Case would show a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. At best if you are a Case fan you would want to give him weeks of snaps with the 1st teamers in practice so if he starts it should be after the bye




Reread what you have quoted and what I typed. I never said you had to have snaps. I said if you are a case fan you would want him to get the extra snaps before starting

Kaiser Toro
10-16-2013, 11:26 AM
The answer to all 3 questions is no much like most Texans fans. I would get some understanding as to the first two and how that would relate but being a season ticket holder would be irrelevant. I would also wager that if you, yourself could answer yes to all 3 that would still leave you behind nfl coaching staffs so as a baseline you and most other "fans" arent on par


lets build more strawmen

No strawmen - trying to get a feel for you experience or lack thereof as it relates to your line of questioning to other members' contributions on the subject matter.

Kubiak knows his X's and O's, but does not show the ability to lead a team, adjust or innovate. For those that are season ticket holders and are invested in the Texan experience, coupled with their experience in the sports and business world, this is evident. Their discussion on the matter is worth propagating, not stifling as you attempt to do on a regular basis.

cuppacoffee
10-16-2013, 11:31 AM
No one is infallible. I do believe however that current NFL staffs are much more informed than fans are. I do also believe that Matt Schuab even in pick 6 form was and is the best qb the team has and still the best option to win.


Maybe, maybe not.

We won't know until we play the only unknown card we have left.

This current NFL staff is not getting the job done. Can you at least agree to that?

I don't understand posters love here for Wade Phillips.

He is following his previous track record. Start fast then fade.

Our "good" offensive / defensive stats are getting our arses kicked.

Do I think Case will lead us to the promised land, maybe, maybe not.

There is no "maybe" where Schaub is concerned. He is broken.

Kubiaks system might work with a mobile qb. Won't know until we try.

And yes. I have written off this season.

:coffee:

DX-TEX
10-16-2013, 11:37 AM
Maybe, maybe not.

We won't know until we play the only unknown card we have left.

This current NFL staff is not getting the job done. Can you at least agree to that?

I don't understand posters love here for Wade Phillips.

He is following his previous track record. Start fast then fade.

Our "good" offensive / defensive stats are getting our arses kicked.

Do I think Case will lead us to the promised land, maybe, maybe not.

There is no "maybe" where Schaub is concerned. He is broken.

Kubiaks system might work with a mobile qb. Won't know until we try.

And yes. I have written off this season.

:coffee:

I don't think people actually want or like the idea of Wade as HC. But knowing McNair it is pretty much inevitable. So you eat your **** sandwich and try to dress it up the best you can

Runner
10-16-2013, 11:40 AM
I don't think people actually want or like the idea of Wade as HC. But knowing McNair it is pretty much inevitable. So you eat your **** sandwich and try to dress it up the best you can

Well said.

thunderkyss
10-16-2013, 11:42 AM
Which brings us to Kubiak. What kind of tree does he have after 8 years in the league? I guess we can count Wade, but his resume started well before Kubiak even became an assistant coach in the league. Who else?


What kind of tree does Mike McCarthy have after 8 years?

Kaiser Toro
10-16-2013, 11:45 AM
What kind of tree does Mike McCarthy have after 8 years?

Start with Philbin

Thorn
10-16-2013, 11:46 AM
Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

We all would. But we're not going to see it under Kubiak.

2012Champs
10-16-2013, 11:46 AM
No strawmen - trying to get a feel for you experience or lack thereof as it relates to your line of questioning to other members' contributions on the subject matter.

Kubiak knows his X's and O's, but does not show the ability to lead a team, adjust or innovate. For those that are season ticket holders and are invested in the Texan experience, coupled with their experience in the sports and business world, this is evident. Their discussion on the matter is worth propagating, not stifling as you attempt to do on a regular basis.



Being a season ticket holder gives you no more insight or ability to judge whats going on than any other persons. It is building strawmen. As far as coaching or playing experiance people employed to do the job at the NFL level usually would have a better idea of what they are doing than D-3 once upon a time player or coach.

cuppacoffee
10-16-2013, 11:49 AM
What kind of tree does Mike McCarthy have after 8 years?

Don't know about his "tree".

Games over .500: 37
Super Bowl Wins: 1
Overall Championships: 1
Conference Championships: 1
Division Championships: 3

:coffee:

thunderkyss
10-16-2013, 11:53 AM
Don't know about his "tree".

Games over .500: 37
Super Bowl Wins: 1
Overall Championships: 1
Conference Championships: 1
Division Championships: 3

:coffee:

Exactly. He's pretty successful & as far as I know, he doesn't have a tree yet. So... just because Kubiak doesn't have a tree doesn't mean anything in & of itself.

Double Barrel
10-16-2013, 11:56 AM
What kind of tree does Mike McCarthy have after 8 years?

Does it really matter when he's got an NFL Championship on his resume?

However, I would not be surprised to look a back on his staff in ten years and see the tree growing.

But, with regards to McCarthy's tree so far (as Kaiser already mentioned):

Assistant coaches under Mike McCarthy who became NFL head coaches:

Joe Philbin, Miami Dolphins (2012 – present)

Assistant coaches under Mike McCarthy who became NCAA head coaches:

Jeff Jagodzinski, Boston College (2007–2008)

But I think you are missing my point. Kubiak does not hire assistants that might challenge his job.

Your homerism is cute and all, but sometimes it completely fails in the face of logic and facts.

disaacks3
10-16-2013, 11:57 AM
What kind of tree does Mike McCarthy have after 8 years?

Joe Philbin - HC of the Dolphins.

cuppacoffee
10-16-2013, 12:03 PM
Being a season ticket holder gives you no more insight or ability to judge whats going on than any other persons. It is building strawmen. As far as coaching or playing experiance people employed to do the job at the NFL level usually would have a better idea of what they are doing than D-3 once upon a time player or coach.



Usually? Not in this instance. NFL coaches get fired all the time. And it ain't because they know what they are doing.


:coffee:

thunderkyss
10-16-2013, 12:05 PM
Assistant coaches under Mike McCarthy who became NFL head coaches:

Joe Philbin, Miami Dolphins (2012 present)

Assistant coaches under Mike McCarthy who became NCAA head coaches:

Jeff Jagodzinski, Boston College (20072008)


So I was wrong, he does have a tree. & I like what's happening in Miami.


But I think you are missing my point. Kubiak does not hire assistants that might challenge his job.


I think both Wade & Sherman could have challenged for his job.


Your homerism is cute and all, but sometimes it completely fails in the face of logic and facts.

It's not about homerism, it's about establishing the logic & the facts. I'm sure I'm not the only one who didn't know McCarthy's coaching tree included Joe Philbin. & Mike McCarthy is more of an apples to apples comparison than Fassel, as they both got their first HC gig in 2006, had the same amount of time to develop coaches, & dealt with the same NFL "atmosphere."

Double Barrel
10-16-2013, 12:07 PM
Exactly. He's pretty successful & as far as I know, he doesn't have a tree yet. So... just because Kubiak doesn't have a tree doesn't mean anything in & of itself.

It's just an observation during analysis, man. Do not try to read too much into it.

The point is that Kubiak's entire body of work speaks for itself. His lack of coaching tree is just another line in the Power Point presentation, not the be all/end all to form an entire big picture perspective.

Kubiak's resume says all you need to know. He's got some good qualities about him. Unfortunately, being a great head coach is not one of them right now.

Runner
10-16-2013, 12:07 PM
Usually? Not in this instance. NFL coaches get fired all the time. And it ain't because they know what they are doing.


:coffee:

I can name one D3 player who coached a Super Bowl winner.

2012Champs
10-16-2013, 12:09 PM
Usually? Not in this instance. NFL coaches get fired all the time. And it ain't because they know what they are doing.


:coffee:



Do NFL coaches who get fired get replaced by season ticket holders? D-3 Coaches? D-1 players without coaching experience?

Double Barrel
10-16-2013, 12:09 PM
I think both Wade & Sherman could have challenged for his job.


Both of these coaches are branches on someone else's tree. It's a bit disingenuous to duct tape their resumes to Kubiak's little sapling.

If you really want to make that argument, so be it. But it stinks of desperation if that's all he's got to brag about.

DX-TEX
10-16-2013, 12:16 PM
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/002/941/449/hi-res-158683602_display_image.jpg?1359501901

Our season in one photo.

Mr teX
10-16-2013, 12:32 PM
Exactly. He's pretty successful & as far as I know, he doesn't have a tree yet. So... just because Kubiak doesn't have a tree doesn't mean anything in & of itself.

when combined with everything else...it holds weight.

Weiss, Crennel, McDaniels, Mangini... Belichick's coaching tree is horrid...at this point, it's being propped up by Nick Saban & I guess you can add Bill Obrien at Penn State. But nobody looks at the hoodie the same way as Kubiak b/c he's a good coach & he's got the skins on the wall to prove it.

Kubiak ain't got **** on the wall & his coaching tree is garbage.....it's all pretty telling.

disaacks3
10-16-2013, 12:36 PM
Being a season ticket holder gives you no more insight or ability to judge whats going on than any other persons. It is building strawmen. As far as coaching or playing experiance people employed to do the job at the NFL level usually would have a better idea of what they are doing than D-3 once upon a time player or coach.

If you went to games and closed your eyes, then sure. For those of us who actually go and watch not only the plays on the field, but the expressions on the bench and the general attitude away from the play-by-play, it can paint a different picture.

Sure, the players can all say publicly that they have Schaub's back. Their body language on the sideline paints a far different picture.

That's NOT a strawman, that's observation & analysis.

2012Champs
10-16-2013, 12:39 PM
If you went to games and closed your eyes, then sure. For those of us who actually go and watch not only the plays on the field, but the expressions on the bench and the general attitude away from the play-by-play, it can paint a different picture.

Sure, the players can all say publicly that they have Schaub's back. Their body language on the sideline paints a far different picture.

That's NOT a strawman, that's observation & analysis.



Being a season ticket or psl holder is a strawman. Start adding all the ifs in that you want and you might start getting to a point. Not being a season ticket holder doesnt prevent me from going to more games than a random season ticket holder. If I was a season ticket holder in the 600s would I still get the same message board cred? Or do I have to be lower?

Mr teX
10-16-2013, 12:45 PM
If you went to games and closed your eyes, then sure. For those of us who actually go and watch not only the plays on the field, but the expressions on the bench and the general attitude away from the play-by-play, it can paint a different picture.

Sure, the players can all say publicly that they have Schaub's back. Their body language on the sideline paints a far different picture.

That's NOT a strawman, that's observation & analysis.

dude...it has nothing to do with it, we at home see just as much as you do on the field...& guess since schaub's body language is poor too, i guess we should believe then that he doesn't have faith in himself or the team too right?

disaacks3
10-16-2013, 12:52 PM
Being a season ticket or psl holder is a strawman. Start adding all the ifs in that you want and you might start getting to a point. Not being a season ticket holder doesnt prevent me from going to more games than a random season ticket holder. If I was a season ticket holder in the 600s would I still get the same message board cred? Or do I have to be lower? *Sigh* NOW who's throwing in if's ands and buts? If you're AT the damn game, you see more than at home. Pretty simple and NOT a strawman.

dude...it has nothing to do with it, we at home see just as much as you do on the field...& guess since schaub's body language is poor too, i guess we should believe then that he doesn't have faith in himself or the team too right? You're absolutely full of ****. Why don't you tell me what Duane Brown's face looked like after the pick-6 in SF? I was less than 20 feet away when he came back to the bench. It sure as hell wasn't exuding confidence in Schaub. I saw a guy trying his damndest NOT to scream in frustration.

2012Champs
10-16-2013, 12:59 PM
*Sigh* NOW who's throwing in if's ands and buts? If you're AT the damn game, you see more than at home. Pretty simple and NOT a strawman




I didnt start the ifs. The question was about season tickets. You then chimmed in talking about watching the game, viewing the sidelines, breaking things down, analyzing etc. You started at the ifs. Holding season tickets or going to games doesnt alone give you any extra credit either as you could be either not paying attention, getting ****faced or just going to have fun.


All of these ifs and bs aside the people employed by the Texans, any other NFL team in some coaching capacity more than likely have a much better idea of whats going on than the fans do. Even super analyzing psl seat owners 1st row on the 50 yard line with access to everyone mic'd up fans

disaacks3
10-16-2013, 01:07 PM
I didnt start the ifs. The question was about season tickets. You then chimmed in talking about watching the game, viewing the sidelines, breaking things down, analyzing etc. You started at the ifs.

Might want to read your quote: Being a season ticket holder gives you no more insight or ability to judge whats going on than any other persons. So, no more insight than absolutely anyone? Face it, you started this farce and it's painfully easy to knock down your assertion.

cuppacoffee
10-16-2013, 01:10 PM
Do NFL coaches who get fired get replaced by season ticket holders? D-3 Coaches? D-1 players without coaching experience?


Never said they did.

Don't want to put words in your mouth: Are you saying that Kubiak knows what he is doing?

Do you agree with what he is doing?

:coffee:

Mr teX
10-16-2013, 01:14 PM
*Sigh* NOW who's throwing in if's ands and buts? If you're AT the damn game, you see more than at home. Pretty simple and NOT a strawman.

You're absolutely full of ****. Why don't you tell me what Duane Brown's face looked like after the pick-6 in SF? I was less than 20 feet away when he came back to the bench. It sure as hell wasn't exuding confidence in Schaub. I saw a guy trying his damndest NOT to scream in frustration.

It looked the same as Schaub's did when he sulked on the sideline...

It looked the same as Kubiak's roaming the sideline when the camera panned to him right after.

It looked the same as JJ Watt's in the post game presser..

...Everyone sees it & everyone is showing it..Just b/c you get to see it in person as a season ticket holder doesn't give you any more insight into what's going on with the team than us watching at home...

thunderkyss
10-16-2013, 01:26 PM
Both of these coaches are branches on someone else's tree. It's a bit disingenuous to duct tape their resumes to Kubiak's little sapling.

If you really want to make that argument, so be it. But it stinks of desperation if that's all he's got to brag about.

I'm not arguing that Kubiak developed either of them, only that they could "challenge" his job.

thunderkyss
10-16-2013, 01:27 PM
when combined with everything else...it holds weight.

Weiss, Crennel, McDaniels, Mangini... Belichick's coaching tree is horrid...at this point, it's being propped up by Nick Saban & I guess you can add Bill Obrien at Penn State. But nobody looks at the hoodie the same way as Kubiak b/c he's a good coach & he's got the skins on the wall to prove it.

Kubiak ain't got **** on the wall & his coaching tree is garbage.....it's all pretty telling.

I agree. Didn't say any different.

2012Champs
10-16-2013, 01:32 PM
Might want to read your quote: So, no more insight than absolutely anyone? Face it, you started this farce and it's painfully easy to knock down your assertion.



You might need to learn to comprehend what you have read. Being a season ticket holder does not give you anything over another person. If you are going to go to a game season ticket holder or not you would have to put in some type of effort above being a ticket holder to be ahead of anyone else. Simply going to the games doesnt grant you any advantage.

2012Champs
10-16-2013, 01:33 PM
Never said they did.

Don't want to put words in your mouth: Are you saying that Kubiak knows what he is doing?

Do you agree with what he is doing?

:coffee:



Does Gary know what he is doing? yes

Does that mean I agree with his choices? No

Does that mean that fans know how to run a team? No

cuppacoffee
10-16-2013, 08:20 PM
Does Gary know what he is doing? yes

Does that mean I agree with his choices? No \

Does that mean that fans know how to run a team? No



Just a little bit confusing.

He knows what he is doing, but you don't agree with his choices.

So just a little extrapolating here would infer that you know/think Kubiak is making bad coaching choices.

Hell, like you said, a season ticket holder or a division three coach can make bad decisions.

So there is nobody around this team who knows what the hell is going on.

So what do we do now?

Are you all in for the status quo?

:coffee:

2012Champs
10-16-2013, 08:22 PM
Just a little bit confusing.

He knows what he is doing, but you don't agree with his choices.

So just a little extrapolating here would infer that you know/think Kubiak is making bad coaching choices.

Hell, like you said, a season ticket holder or a division three coach can make bad decisions.

So there is nobody around this team who knows what the hell is going on.

So what do we do now?

Are you all in for the status quo?

:coffee:


Just because someone knows how to do something better than I do it doesn't mean I have to agree with their choices. It shouldn't be too confusing

leebigeztx
10-16-2013, 11:03 PM
1st of all, they won 2 games with Hoyer..the 3rd game against Buffalo when he got injured halfway through the 1st quarter, Weeden came in and played the rest of that game..In any event, it's hardly a substantial body of work to determine that making the move to Hoyer was the right move. The other end of that is the move back to Weeden was only made b/c Hoyer got hurt...not the same situation.

And hate to break it to you, but making the move to Keenum is the last move he can make....the last new move to give this team the proverbial "spark" everyone wants anyway. People want Schaub benched b/c he's not playing well....Ok, bring in Yates...he doesn't play well & people want him benched....Ok, bring in Keenum...what move are you gonna make if he plays just as bad or worse than the 2 prior to him? What, you're gonna go back to 1 of the other 2 bad qb's you benched him for & promise "this time it's gonna be different!" yeah, i'm not taking you seriously as player at that point...if i didn't stop taking you serious prior to that.

It's the very reason why coaches are so hesitant to make qb changes during the season unless they have the clear heir apparent on the sidelines...& those guys usually are 1st-2nd round draft picks the team took the year prior. & sorry to break it to you guys but Keenum isn't in that category, he's just the alternative fans are grasping for straws at b/c they haven't seen him play in the regular season yet..

I'm gonna dismiss the numbers you put for Yates..he was a rookie & all things considered he performed admirably. Last week, he was put in a bad situation.

The comparisons to Christian Ponder.....Hey, that's what happens when teams get film on you. Ponder started out great last year....If i recall, he didn't throw an int for the 1st 3 games. teams got film on him, started figuring out his tendencies, game, set, match. It happens to every qb in this league....& it will happen to Keenum. Ultimately i'm not confident he'll be able to sustain any good play for the long haul.

And to add to it,people forget about the playoff win or the win vs the falcons or the game winning drive vs the bengals. Nah,don't brng that up,it doesn't matter. None of it. The bomb thrown in stride to aj vs the bengals,the pinpoint pass to jacobe in which they got a pi,nor the scramble that put them in position. No we just want case cuz he got it and showed it in preseason! Man I tell you,lol

ObsiWan
10-17-2013, 12:33 AM
And to add to it,people forget about the playoff win or the win vs the falcons or the game winning drive vs the bengals. Nah,don't brng that up,it doesn't matter. None of it. The bomb thrown in stride to aj vs the bengals,the pinpoint pass to jacobe in which they got a pi,nor the scramble that put them in position. No we just want case cuz he got it and showed it in preseason! Man I tell you,lol

Where has that level of play been since then? Where was that level of play against the Ravens? Where was it when he replaced Schaub on two occasions this season?

you could almost argue Yates had his peak in the Bengals game. Haven't seen any thing better - or even as good - since that one game.

...unless you're gonna now say this past pre-season counts...

Surreal McCoy
10-17-2013, 03:28 AM
I have yet to see Kubiak do that this season when his team needed it the most.

Yeah those first two games were nail-biters! Shame you missed them.

leebigeztx
10-17-2013, 03:29 AM
Where has that level of play been since then? Where was that level of play against the Ravens? Where was it when he replaced Schaub on two occasions this season?

you could almost argue Yates had his peak in the Bengals game. Haven't seen any thing better - or even as good - since that one game.

...unless you're gonna now say this past pre-season counts...

So dude takes no reps in practice and comes into a game when its clearly out of hand and you ask about level of play since? You have to be better than that I hope. If he starts vs kc and looks like he did in mop up duty vs the ravens and rams,then I might lean toward you. I'm not gonna base what I see on yates from 2 out of hand ball games just as I want give keenum the job playing against bartenders.

Surreal McCoy
10-17-2013, 04:11 AM
I'm not gonna base what I see on yates from 2 out of hand ball games just as I want give keenum the job playing against bartenders.

But...I thought Schaub only plays well in garbage time? So why can't Yates?