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View Full Version : Can we please stop talking about yardage now?


eriadoc
10-13-2013, 11:48 PM
Texans are 6th in the league in yards per game offensively, but are 25th in scoring, with 106 points (17.7/game). Really tired of hearing about yardage.

ThaShark316
10-13-2013, 11:50 PM
2010 Chargers, Part II.

Uncle Rico
10-13-2013, 11:54 PM
Same logic applies for the defensive side of the ball. Stats do not tell the whole story and our defense just isn't that good.

leebigeztx
10-13-2013, 11:57 PM
I've never ben a yardage guy. Offensively, ppg,3rd down effenciency,and rz tds are the most important. When fans were talking how great the texans were offensively when schaub was throwing for 4700 yds, they were avg or below in those critical areas. Defensively,its the same.

Rey
10-14-2013, 12:08 AM
I use stats as a reference, but I'm more of a trust your eyes guy.

texanhead08
10-14-2013, 12:16 AM
For an offense the most important stat is points bottom line end of story.

Defensively its points, turnovers forced, and 3rd down efficiency

Texanmike02
10-14-2013, 02:13 AM
I use stats as a reference, but I'm more of a trust your eyes guy.

The problem isn't stats, it is how they are used. Kind of like ERA vs. WHIP. If you just looked at yardage that is kind of like looking at revenue vs profits. You can cherry pick one stat or another but it won't tell the whole story.

In this case look at penalties, turnover diff, 3rd down conversions, 3rd down defense, rz defense and yardage. One of these is not like the other and should be discarded.

Mike

HJam72
10-14-2013, 03:35 AM
These days there are stats such as Bendability & Scorability on sites suck as....

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/stats/2013/6/SCOR/

....that tell more of the story. We suck in the Red Zone on both sides of the ball. I would like to see some historical stats in these areas, though, because Foster, for instance, is supposed to be really good in the Red Zone (one player, anyway), although I doubt Schaub ever was.

TexanBacker93
10-14-2013, 10:21 AM
Same logic applies for the defensive side of the ball. Stats do not tell the whole story and our defense just isn't that good.

I wouldn't go that far. I don't think they are #1 in the league, but I still think they are good. Not the best, but still a top 10. They don't force turnovers, though, and that's a huge problem. They are also undisciplined and can give up a big play because they aren't where they are supposed to be. We still are one of the top teams in forcing 3 and outs and battle. I think the D is forced to try and be the offense and defense because the offense won't get it done. Look at the SF game. They did their job for most of the game. We came out of the half and forced 2 straight 3 and outs, but the offense could only muster a Kubiak (what a FG should be known as). When the D is playing from behind they're trying to force things and gamble.

The offense, the play calling, and the overall schemes are limiting our D.

thunderkyss
10-14-2013, 10:29 AM
The offense, the play calling, and the overall schemes are limiting our D.

I wonder how many yards they would have given up if our offense wasn't winning the ToP

Given more opportunity I've no doubt our defense would have given up more yards & more points. I don't know how anyone can look at those 11 guys & say they're playing well.

Exascor
10-14-2013, 11:08 AM
The offense, the play calling, and the overall schemes are limiting our D.The defensive scheme is flawed. It's a QB pressure based scheme with man to man coverage. Fail to get to the QB and odds are the offense wins. Spread the D out, throw the ball deep and the odds are they either get a big completion or a penalty. There is nobody even close to getting an INT in this system. The scheme is as outdated as the offensive scheme Kubiak brings. They both need to be replaced and I don't believe either Phillips or Kubiak are capable of changing systems.

texanhead08
10-14-2013, 11:41 AM
The only reason the defense is #1 to this point is they haven't been able to give up more yards because they are always defending a short field after all the turnovers.

thunderkyss
10-14-2013, 11:46 AM
The only reason the defense is #1 to this point is they haven't been able to give up more yards because they are always defending a short field after all the turnovers.

Not always. The first INT to San Diego was a short field. Tate's fumble against San Francisco were short fields. Other than that, we've turned the ball over on the other side of the 50.

3rd down conversion numbes suk, RZ numbers suk. If the offense wasn't winning ToP, this would not be the #1 defense. Probably still top 10 in yards, but not #1.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-14-2013, 11:51 AM
The only reason the defense is #1 to this point is they haven't been able to give up more yards because they are always defending a short field after all the turnovers.


That along with the pick 6's taking a possession away from the opposing offense and our special teams giving up short fields all year long. The "#1 defense" is a fraud.

Vinny
10-14-2013, 11:57 AM
That along with the pick 6's taking a possession away from the opposing offense and our special teams giving up short fields all year long. The "#1 defense" is a fraud.
The team has given up...that's what it is. The defense knows our offense is worthless. I'm sure they would love to play a team that never challenged everyone deep and only ran underneath routes and can't audible out of bad plays. I think the defense has had the life sucked out of them. Wouldn't you love to play the Lions if they never targeted Calvin Johnson in the end zone and never made tough throws.

HOU-TEX
10-14-2013, 12:01 PM
Bradford went 8 for 8 against the blitz. The blitz/rush isn't getting there and we apparently can't cover long enough for the rush to get there anyway.

I read a tweet yesterday stating that Bradford said our defense was not difficult at all.

Mr teX
10-14-2013, 12:03 PM
The team has given up...that's what it is. The defense knows our coaches are worthless.

fixed for you.

IlliniJen
10-14-2013, 12:05 PM
I don't know who said it, but stats are for losers.

They are utterly without context...that's why when you look at guys like Bill Barnwell, who rely a little too much on stats to prove some of their points, you see guys how are letting the math of the game overshadow the art/psychology of the game.

This team is such a mess right now and there's about 50 billion reasons why, and stats will never tell you the whole story.

Speedy
10-14-2013, 12:46 PM
I don't know who said it, but stats are for losers.

They are utterly without context...that's why when you look at guys like Bill Barnwell, who rely a little too much on stats to prove some of their points, you see guys how are letting the math of the game overshadow the art/psychology of the game.

This team is such a mess right now and there's about 50 billion reasons why, and stats will never tell you the whole story.

Yeah, stats will tell you a story if you know how to read them. You can't look at total yards given up only and say your team has the best defense. Looking beyond the yardage stat, the stats start to tell you that no, the Texans defense isn't the best afterall. Fewer plays run against you because of having shorter fields to work with will keep your total yards allowed low.

The Texans aren't making stops on 3rd down and can't stop anything in the red zone. Those 2 indicators alone tell you that the #1 defense ranking based solely on yards allowed, is bogus.

Of course your eyeballs are already telling you that, but it IS there in the stats. You just have to continue reading. You can't pick one stat and make any kind of argument with it because, no, one stat will not tell you anything.

CnD had a post somewhere explaining how Troy Aikman came to his efficiency ratings, taking into account several factors (stats) which gave a better indication of how you are doing. Instead of the Texans D being ranked #1, Aikman had them at #20 coming into yesterday. Is the Texans D the 12th worst in the NFL? I don't know. My eyeballs tell me they are a lot closer to 20 than they are 1. He also had the offense ranked 18th. Far from the NFL designation (going strictly by yards gained) of #7. My eyeballs tell me they are a lot closer to 18 than 7 as well.

So it is in the stats, you just have to finish reading them. Looking at a single stat (yards or whatever), will not tell you anything.

thunderkyss
10-14-2013, 02:55 PM
I don't know who said it, but stats are for losers.


Andre is a great receiver. Can't be denied. But at the end of the day, all he's got is yardage to show for it.

eriadoc
10-14-2013, 03:06 PM
Andre is a great receiver. Can't be denied. But at the end of the day, all he's got is yardage to show for it.

All he has is yardage piled up in a system that has always put up more yardage than other high scoring teams put up.

Honoring Earl 34
10-14-2013, 04:03 PM
Andre is a great receiver. Can't be denied. But at the end of the day, all he's got is yardage to show for it.

That stat is brought to you by the number 8

midway
10-14-2013, 06:02 PM
I wouldn't go that far. I don't think they are #1 in the league, but I still think they are good. Not the best, but still a top 10. They don't force turnovers, though, and that's a huge problem. They are also undisciplined and can give up a big play because they aren't where they are supposed to be. We still are one of the top teams in forcing 3 and outs and battle. I think the D is forced to try and be the offense and defense because the offense won't get it done. Look at the SF game. They did their job for most of the game. We came out of the half and forced 2 straight 3 and outs, but the offense could only muster a Kubiak (what a FG should be known as). When the D is playing from behind they're trying to force things and gamble.

The offense, the play calling, and the overall schemes are limiting our D.

It's hard to force turnovers when the other team can literally just run the ball 30 times in the second half up the middle knowing that even if they go three and out on every possession they'll still win. Hell, Sam Bradford only had 16 attempts yesterday.

midway
10-14-2013, 06:03 PM
That stat is brought to you by the number 8

That's brought to you by Gary Kubiak's scheme, and maybe his misunderstanding of the rules to make him think that throwing to non-TE players in the endzone is a penalty.

Corrosion
10-14-2013, 06:10 PM
Texans are 6th in the league in yards per game offensively, but are 25th in scoring, with 106 points (17.7/game). Really tired of hearing about yardage.

To be honest , I think those numbers still tell us something , despite the record , this team overall is much better than its record.


#1 defense - they can stop teams.


Poor 3rd down percentage - they give up an awful lot of third downs (kinda reminds me of year before last). Teams get to third down & the 3rd corner / safety just are getting exposed along with teams taking advantage of their aggressiveness.


Pathetic red zone defense - Man I don't know what the hell is wrong here.


#1 in time of possession - I think their pace has a lot to do with this. Havent seen them get a move on very often but they are able to eat up a lot of clock with lots of plays & first downs.


#6-7?? in total yards ... they can move the ball but penalties & turnovers end those drives. Do away with the mistakes and .... things probably look different.


Foster is #2 in the NFL in rushing yards. They can run the damn ball.





How do you lose a game in which you hold a team to 12/23 123 yards 0td's 1 holding them to 3/14 - 21% on third downs while you posted 476 yards of you own ?!

Mistakes - Turnovers.


How the hell do hold the opponents QB to 6/15 113 yards and lose by 31 its not like they were lighting the world on fire .....


Mistakes - 4 turnovers & 7 penalties.


QB goes 12/16 117 yards and his offense totals 216 yards ..... yet they score 38.
You post 420 yards of your own .... and cant manage more than 13 points.

Again , drive killing penalties and 4 turnovers , two that lead directly to points.



I look at those games and they dominate them all statistically .... but their mistakes cost them any opportunity to win.


How the hell do you fix the mistakes ?! ... when this offense is designed to limit exposure to mistakes , keep the QB clean and give him easy reads.

What it tells me is that there is a lot of potential with this roster .... but that they have to stop shooting themselves in the head (it aint the foot!).


I have no idea how the hell to get them to play a clean football game ....

Double Barrel
10-14-2013, 06:47 PM
I don't know who said it, but stats are for losers.


"Stats are for losers. The final score is for winners."
~ Bill Belichick (http://nesn.com/2009/12/bill-belichick-stats-are-for-losers/)

http://nesncom.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/6a0115709f071f970b0120a750967f970b-400wi.jpe

Mr teX
10-14-2013, 06:48 PM
To be honest , I think those numbers still tell us something , despite the record , this team overall is much better than its record.


#1 defense - they can stop teams.


Poor 3rd down percentage - they give up an awful lot of third downs (kinda reminds me of year before last). Teams get to third down & the 3rd corner / safety just are getting exposed along with teams taking advantage of their aggressiveness.


Pathetic red zone defense - Man I don't know what the hell is wrong here.


#1 in time of possession - I think their pace has a lot to do with this. Havent seen them get a move on very often but they are able to eat up a lot of clock with lots of plays & first downs.


#6-7?? in total yards ... they can move the ball but penalties & turnovers end those drives. Do away with the mistakes and .... things probably look different.


Foster is #2 in the NFL in rushing yards. They can run the damn ball.





How do you lose a game in which you hold a team to 12/23 123 yards 0td's 1 holding them to 3/14 - 21% on third downs while you posted 476 yards of you own ?!

Mistakes - Turnovers.


How the hell do hold the opponents QB to 6/15 113 yards and lose by 31 its not like they were lighting the world on fire .....


Mistakes - 4 turnovers & 7 penalties.


QB goes 12/16 117 yards and his offense totals 216 yards ..... yet they score 38.
You post 420 yards of your own .... and cant manage more than 13 points.

Again , drive killing penalties and 4 turnovers , two that lead directly to points.



I look at those games and they dominate them all statistically .... but their mistakes cost them any opportunity to win.


How the hell do you fix the mistakes ?! ... when this offense is designed to limit exposure to mistakes , keep the QB clean and give him easy reads.

What it tells me is that there is a lot of potential with this roster .... but that they have to stop shooting themselves in the head (it aint the foot!).


I have no idea how the hell to get them to play a clean football game ....

Apparently, neither does kubiak

bOODRO87
10-14-2013, 06:55 PM
I heard a very shocking stat coming home from The Horn here in Austin.

If you take away the great first half the Texans played against Seattle starting all the way from Baltimore to St. Louis...

Houston has been outscored 125 to 18.

:fingergun:

thunderkyss
10-14-2013, 06:56 PM
If we stop talking about yardage, we've got to stop talking about Andre being a great player or even a HoFer.... all he's got is yardage.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-14-2013, 07:20 PM
LZ brought up a stat this morning which was pretty disturbing. In 36 out of the last 74 games, the Texans have scored 6 points or fewer in one half.

eriadoc
10-14-2013, 07:31 PM
LZ brought up a stat this morning which was pretty disturbing. Since 2009, the Texans have scored 6 or fewer points in a half 36 out of 74 times.

That's why I've tired of the yardage argument over the years and labeled them a between the 20s team. They can put up points in bunches at times, but they have failed to put together a four quarter game far too often. That's what I mean by forget the yardage. People talk up the offense like it's a great offense and it just isn't. Great offenses don't go to sleep for entire halves and/or land on 16 points as much as this team has over the past several years.

steelbtexan
10-14-2013, 07:39 PM
If we stop talking about yardage, we've got to stop talking about Andre being a great player or even a HoFer.... all he's got is yardage.

I'm OK with this.

busterspencer
10-14-2013, 07:44 PM
Texans are 6th in the league in yards per game offensively, but are 25th in scoring, with 106 points (17.7/game). Really tired of hearing about yardage.

How are the Texans on W/L ???????? That is the only thing that counts.
Screw the yardage...

thunderkyss
10-14-2013, 07:53 PM
How are the Texans on W/L ???????? That is the only thing that counts.
Screw the yardage...

12-4 didn't mean a whole lot last year.

eriadoc
10-14-2013, 08:27 PM
12-4 didn't mean a whole lot last year.

Well, the last 1-3 didn't, anyway. The first 11-1 was great (well, 10-1, anyway).

Corrosion
10-14-2013, 08:57 PM
That's why I've tired of the yardage argument over the years and labeled them a between the 20s team. They can put up points in bunches at times, but they have failed to put together a four quarter game far too often. That's what I mean by forget the yardage. People talk up the offense like it's a great offense and it just isn't. Great offenses don't go to sleep for entire halves and/or land on 16 points as much as this team has over the past several years.

You know ... they put p a lot of yards and don't get it done in the red zone. That's where individual battles are amplified ... and they aren't winning those.

More importantly , I think the inadequacies of the quarterback position are greatly amplified inside the 10. Lack of arm strength - the ability to throw thru tight windows and or buy a little time because of a compressed field ....

These redzone issues have plagued the team as long as Schaub has been under center. That should tell us how to fix the problems.


I really don't think its the scheme or the playcalling .... it boils down to winning individual battles and making plays. Someone aint making their fair share.

Uncle Rico
10-14-2013, 09:04 PM
"Stats are for losers. The final score is for winners."
~ Bill Belichick (http://nesn.com/2009/12/bill-belichick-stats-are-for-losers/)

http://nesncom.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/6a0115709f071f970b0120a750967f970b-400wi.jpe

Bingo!

thunderkyss
10-14-2013, 09:05 PM
You know ... they put p a lot of yards and don't get it done in the red zone. That's where individual battles are amplified ... and they aren't winning those.


I'm tired of seeing our QBs pepper the field all around the end zone but never throw the ball into the endzone. Next time we're in the red zone, All I want to see is 9 offensive linemen, Earl Mitchell at fullback & direct snap the ball to Arian.

Corrosion
10-14-2013, 09:12 PM
I'm tired of seeing our QBs pepper the field all around the end zone but never throw the ball into the endzone. Next time we're in the red zone, All I want to see is 9 offensive linemen, Earl Mitchell at fullback & direct snap the ball to Arian.

I posted something about that a couple weeks back .... no one really responded to it. :peek:

Honoring Earl 34
10-14-2013, 09:21 PM
I'm tired of seeing our QBs pepper the field all around the end zone but never throw the ball into the endzone. Next time we're in the red zone, All I want to see is 9 offensive linemen, Earl Mitchell at fullback & direct snap the ball to Arian.

I posted something about that a couple weeks back .... no one really responded to it. :peek:

How many times have they lofted a ball for Hopkins ? The same amount for AJ ?

Uncle Rico
10-14-2013, 09:37 PM
I'm tired of seeing our QBs pepper the field all around the end zone but never throw the ball into the endzone. Next time we're in the red zone, All I want to see is 9 offensive linemen, Earl Mitchell at fullback & direct snap the ball to Arian.

Or how about some jump balls to your alpha receivers? That might be a novel idea.

leebigeztx
10-15-2013, 03:27 AM
You know ... they put p a lot of yards and don't get it done in the red zone. That's where individual battles are amplified ... and they aren't winning those.

More importantly , I think the inadequacies of the quarterback position are greatly amplified inside the 10. Lack of arm strength - the ability to throw thru tight windows and or buy a little time because of a compressed field ....

These redzone issues have plagued the team as long as Schaub has been under center. That should tell us how to fix the problems.


I really don't think its the scheme or the playcalling .... it boils down to winning individual battles and making plays. Someone aint making their fair share.

Been saying it for yrs. Brady doesn't have a cannon,so what do the patriots do? They had moss and after that gronk and hernandez. They're struggling to score in the redzone this year because gronk,hernandez,and welker are missing. For the most part,in the rz,especially when you break it down say from 25yd line to 15yd line,15 to 7,and 7yd line in,things can get really difficult. Either you take those kill shots to the end zone when you get to about the 30 yd line or you create a matchup with the fade or jumpball. For yrs the texans were bad in the rz. Prior to foster,they were terrible because of a lot of issues you brought up. For some reason,andre is one of the least targeted wr in the rz in the nfl. Schaub doesn't even look to throw it to andre as a fade or jumpball. Management thought by getting a jumpball kinda guy like hopkins would help,but its still the same,the qb.

Sigma
10-15-2013, 06:45 AM
Really tired of hearing about yardage.

This thread is now more than 3.5 yards long.

on an average PC screen

:D

thunderkyss
10-15-2013, 09:51 AM
You know we've been top 10 scoring the last few years.

Mr teX
10-15-2013, 10:03 AM
Been saying it for yrs. Brady doesn't have a cannon,so what do the patriots do? They had moss and after that gronk and hernandez. They're struggling to score in the redzone this year because gronk,hernandez,and welker are missing. For the most part,in the rz,especially when you break it down say from 25yd line to 15yd line,15 to 7,and 7yd line in,things can get really difficult. Either you take those kill shots to the end zone when you get to about the 30 yd line or you create a matchup with the fade or jumpball. For yrs the texans were bad in the rz. Prior to foster,they were terrible because of a lot of issues you brought up. For some reason,andre is one of the least targeted wr in the rz in the nfl. Schaub doesn't even look to throw it to andre as a fade or jumpball. Management thought by getting a jumpball kinda guy like hopkins would help,but its still the same,the qb.

but the bolded more than anything should tell you that its not really the qb as much...Brady nor Brees..2 guys that don't have the strongest arms.... have issues throwing the ball in the end zone from 20 yards in....Many of the TD's they score are schemed out to where many of the TD's they score in that area guys are just walking into the end zone or are wide open enough to where the defense doesn't have a shot to catch them before they cross the goal line.

Rare is it that they've got to drill something in there.

deucetx
10-15-2013, 10:05 AM
How are the Texans on W/L ???????? That is the only thing that counts.
Screw the yardage...

Well starting with the Patriots game last year (when the wheels began falling off the wagon) we are 4-8 and have been outscored 341-218. We just suffered our worse back to back losses ever since we never loss by 25+ in consecutive games so...yeah. Even that isn't falling our way.

This may be the most Jekyl and Hyde team I have seen. Not sure what to believe. I was a believer in the defense and then realized (probably finally) that we can't stop a damn thing in the redzone nor force any turnovers. I believed we had one of the most balanced offenses out there and we can't score in the redzone and apparently enjoy gifting the other team with the ball as well. Everyone seems to be having their turn at doing that to the point Yates felt a bit left out.

Frustrating to say the least but just like that Browns fan that ranted on youtube...

...We'll see the team again next week because we're not going anywhere.