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keyfro
07-08-2005, 01:31 PM
clicked onto houstonchronicle.com and saw that on the justice/mcclain show they talked about how DD might hold out for a new contract...anyone know if there is any truth to this or is mcclain just blowing smoke up everyone's arses

z0rpAn
07-08-2005, 01:50 PM
IMO. DD isn't the type that holds out, at least not yet.

Carr Bombed
07-08-2005, 01:59 PM
That doesn't sound right at all. Why would he hold out, we already went to him and offered to negotiate a new contract and they wanted to hold off til a later date, didn't they?

Vinny
07-08-2005, 02:03 PM
He would be a fool to hold out. The Texans didn't take Morency because he looks cool with his helmet visor.

wrestler4life
07-08-2005, 02:32 PM
If he wants to hold out, maybe we can trade him for a better TE or Tackle?

mexican_texan
07-08-2005, 02:33 PM
He would be a fool to hold out. The Texans didn't take Morency because he looks cool with his helmet visor.

they didn't!? I've got to go tell captian obvious! well, the texans have to renegotiate David and Domanick's contract. I suggest doing it the week the Texans suffer their only (i hope) loss of the season.

Vinny
07-08-2005, 02:35 PM
The Texans don't have to renegotiate either contract. Dom is a RFA not a UFA and David has a buy-out clause. Capt Obvious probably doesn't know that.

mexican_texan
07-08-2005, 02:40 PM
The Texans don't have to renegotiate either contract. Dom is a RFA not a UFA and David has a buy-out clause. Capt Obvious probably doesn't know that.

Its best to renegotiate right now before Carr becomes the best QB in the greatest QB division of the AFC South ('cept Fat Albert of the cardiac cats). As for DD, its not hard to replace him, the Texans could just use the Broncos' RB system and use a hobo. But I don't want a holdout to happen cuz that really lowers morale and chemistry.

infantrycak
07-08-2005, 03:11 PM
Its best to renegotiate right now before Carr becomes the best QB in the greatest QB division of the AFC South ('cept Fat Albert of the cardiac cats).

The issue right now is Carr playing up to the remainder of his contract, not him out-playing it. His cap hit for 2005 is $7.8 mil and for 2006 is $9.4 mil.

Lucky
07-08-2005, 03:19 PM
His cap hit for 2005 is $7.8 mil and for 2006 is $9.4 mil.
That's why the Texans would look to renegotiate Carr's contract. To lower the cap number.

blockhead83
07-08-2005, 04:10 PM
Its best to renegotiate right now before Carr becomes the best QB in the greatest QB division of the AFC South ('cept Fat Albert of the cardiac cats). As for DD, its not hard to replace him, the Texans could just use the Broncos' RB system and use a hobo. But I don't want a holdout to happen cuz that really lowers morale and chemistry.

If everyone could just use the Broncos' RB system then running backs wouldn't be nearly as highly valued. It's harder to emulate their system than just instituting a new blocking scheme.

JustBonee
07-08-2005, 06:46 PM
I had joined Domanick's website .. http://www.doubledtalk.com/

I haven't been there for a while, and thought there might be some current information, but now it seems a person needs to pay for a 'Touchdown' membership (the payment plan) to access everything.

Ghetto D
07-08-2005, 06:50 PM
I got the feeling from the audio segment that the Texans would sit down with DD, but he could get much more if he plays well this season. (They also mention Buchanan as being in the same boat.)

Aside from Morency, McClain insinuated that the Texans floated the Travis Henry rumor to keep DD in check a little.

There will be no hold out unless DD is Verba-stupid (i.e. grossly delusional, an a__ about it, and unwilling to be patient). DD seems to be the complete opposite.

ArlingtonTexan
07-08-2005, 07:21 PM
Holding out by any RB would quite dumb...Alexander, E. James, and Henry are all better than DomDavis (2 not even close) and can't get anyone to pay for them. I assume that Dom's agent is watching the market.

Texans Pride
07-08-2005, 07:24 PM
Adam Sheftfield (sp) just reported on NFL Total Access that the Texans were very close to rewarding DD very nicely for all the hard work and good attitude he has shown both on and off the field.

keyfro
07-08-2005, 07:46 PM
i hope so...while DD might not be the dominate runner that we think of in guys like alexander, edge, or even benson for that matter...davis has one thing he can hold over all of their heads...the ability to catch the ball...besides LT i don't think there is a better back in the reciever catagory...DD is a double threat at anytime...as much he deserves to get paid i think he should do it the honorable way...play this season out then talk to them about during our off-week...maybe get it done then...or at the end of the season...i know in pro sports honor isn't something that's held high but it would be nice to see that change

yes i believe players should honor the contracts they signed *cough TO cough*

and yes i believe managers should honor the contracts they sign players to...maybe if they signed them to more realistic contracts we wouldn't have to constantly see players redo their contracts and what not...i know it's a business and business always change but at some point it's just silly and that point is pretty close to being now...maybe not in the texans case but as the NFL as a whole it is

stephen1
07-08-2005, 08:52 PM
d.d. shouldnt hold out, but i agree with T.O.'s holdout because he got a bad deal. then again, he signed it so its his mistake

jr0ck
07-08-2005, 09:35 PM
d.d. shouldnt hold out, but i agree with T.O.'s holdout because he got a bad deal. then again, he signed it so its his mistake

that makes three of you: 1. TO 2. rosengouge and 3. YOU.

not comapny i would like to share, but to each his own...

back on topic, i hope DD doesn't hold out because my opinon of him would change dramatically (which will really get him worried, but i have standards too dammit!...). but after i saw his website, the aforementioned doubledtalk.com, it gave me a bad feeling so i wouldn't be totally surprised....please don't do it DD!!!





....come on season, come on season...

Waltman
07-08-2005, 10:00 PM
I'm pretty sure the Texans will have DD in the back field this season and a happy DD at that. He is my boy and I know the Texans will do what it takes to keep him (reasonably) but I think DD know he can easily be replaced.

Waltman
07-08-2005, 10:09 PM
Besides the two people who we do not want to leave are A.J. and Carr. But it is a team sport. Fact of the matter we forget it is a business also, but I would hate to see DD go if he do.

Errant Hothy
07-08-2005, 10:28 PM
Here's the text version of Adam Schetters story

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/8630877

Davis for future seasons before the third-year running back can become a restricted free agent. The two sides soon will be discussing a long-term contract extension that would keep Davis, now aiming for his third consecutive 1,000-plus-yard rushing season, in Houston for at least the next five seasons.

It is expected to be completed by the time the Texans break training camp later this summer. But first, the Texans want to get deals done with each of their six draft picks. Once they do, they will move on to business with Davis, who despite being scheduled to make $380,000 this season in the last year of his three-year contract has attended all the Texans' OTAs.

Davis will turn 25 in October, and once his new deal is signed -- and it would be a major upset if it weren't -- he can bank on spending the prime years of his career in Houston.

As with everything regarding palyer signings, I'll reserve judgement till I see a dollar amount. I'm gald the FO has put signing the draft picks as their first priority.

shiznay
07-08-2005, 11:10 PM
I hope Domanick is focusing on doing what he can to stay healthy for a full 16 games, and not worrying about his contract. When healthy, he's already proven he can be one of the best in the league. The big contract will come in due time.

RTP2110
07-08-2005, 11:27 PM
::Irrelevant Post::

stephen1
07-09-2005, 01:04 AM
doesnt he want to stay put? i cant imagine why he would hold out when hes trying to remain in houston.

BuffSoldier
07-09-2005, 02:59 AM
DD and holding out just dont go together, I think he is too much of a team player and has far to much to prove before he can hold out. DD has proven that when hes on the field he can put up amazing numbers and score numerouse TDs but he has to prove that he can stay on the field. I just hope the Texans can work this out and get the dealed hammered in and done before pre-season so that DD wont have this on his mind when he should just be worried about playing.

dalemurphy
07-09-2005, 11:01 AM
Holding out by any RB would quite dumb...Alexander, E. James, and Henry are all better than DomDavis (2 not even close) and can't get anyone to pay for them. I assume that Dom's agent is watching the market.


There's a big difference... Those guys are closing in on 30 and wanting 6-7 million per year. Davis is young and right now is making only about 1/2 million a year. It makes total sense for Davis to hold out. He's got back to back 1000 yard seasons and won't be a free agent for two years. If he doesn't get a significant signing bonus, his career could end with one hit and he'd never cash in on his talent and production.

wags
07-09-2005, 03:11 PM
According to this the Texans are just waiting to sign their rookies before negotiating with DD.

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/8630877

It is expected to be completed by the time the Texans break training camp later this summer. But first, the Texans want to get deals done with each of their six draft picks. Once they do, they will move on to business with Davis, who despite being scheduled to make $380,000 this season in the last year of his three-year contract has attended all the Texans' OTAs.

ArlingtonTexan
07-09-2005, 04:15 PM
There's a big difference... Those guys are closing in on 30 and wanting 6-7 million per year. Davis is young and right now is making only about 1/2 million a year. It makes total sense for Davis to hold out. He's got back to back 1000 yard seasons and won't be a free agent for two years. If he doesn't get a significant signing bonus, his career could end with one hit and he'd never cash in on his talent and production.


The point is that he has about ZERO leverage. If there was a market those guys at 27 and 28 could still get jobs. He may want to cash for the reason you stated, but the Texans control his rights for a couple of years and have guys on the roster who have similiar skills. Basically, the Texans are showing good faith (and good business) to sign now. DomDavis' best move is to report to camp, understand he is going to a reasonable contract and show the same good faith that the organization is showing him. If holds out the Texans are in a great position to hold Davis hostage. By holding out, he risking going on that market (always could change) that is poor right now for RBs.

Big B Texan Fan
07-09-2005, 04:32 PM
The point is that he has about ZERO leverage. If there was a market those guys at 27 and 28 could still get jobs. He may want to cash for the reason you stated, but the Texans control his rights for a couple of years and have guys on the roster who have similiar skills. Basically, the Texans are showing good faith (and good business) to sign now. DomDavis' best move is to report to camp, understand he is going to a reasonable contract and show the same good faith that the organization is showing him. If holds out the Texans are in a great position to hold Davis hostage. By holding out, he risking going on that market (always could change) that is poor right now for RBs.
Well stated. My thoughts exactly. :highfive:

dalemurphy
07-09-2005, 05:39 PM
The point is that he has about ZERO leverage. If there was a market those guys at 27 and 28 could still get jobs. He may want to cash for the reason you stated, but the Texans control his rights for a couple of years and have guys on the roster who have similiar skills. Basically, the Texans are showing good faith (and good business) to sign now. DomDavis' best move is to report to camp, understand he is going to a reasonable contract and show the same good faith that the organization is showing him. If holds out the Texans are in a great position to hold Davis hostage. By holding out, he risking going on that market (always could change) that is poor right now for RBs.


Anytime a player is under contract, the team has leverage. However, the idea that the Texans' wouldn't be hurt by Davis not playing this season is pretty silly. That would be his leverage. Holding out for a new contract has nothing to do with the free agent market. By the way, if he was cut loose on the market, I guarantee you teams would offer him a multi-year deal with a signing bonus in the $4 million dollar plus range.

Hopefully, the team and Davis are handling the negotiations with mutual respect and it will get done. However, I sympathize with players in Davis' position. The collective bargaining agreement doesn't do those players much good. Besides, Davis wasn't even in the NFL when the last agreement was signed.

SheTexan
07-09-2005, 05:42 PM
Greed is rampant in the NFL! This smells of AGENTitis! An agent who knows DD is injury prone and figures he better try to get a few more bucks out of him before the rigors of the game take's it's toll.

I know this is totally irrevelent, and my opinion only, BUT, any player who would charge his fans to access his web site would hold out for more money. DD is like any other player in the NFL, MONEY talks!! Dedication to a team and it's fans means NOTHING when it comes to MONEY. Will it change my opinion of him if he does hold out? Not in the least! I've been following this game far to long to let stuff like this tick me off. It's a business, and he will make a business decision based on what he thinks is best for him, and his agent!! :)

JustBonee
07-09-2005, 07:34 PM
Yeah .. what SheTex said. Greed is an ugly thing.

Errant Hothy
07-09-2005, 08:20 PM
Where is everybody getting the nontion that DD is going to hold out? The Chronicle hacks said he "might" hold out if he dosn't get a new deal, and Schetter is saying that once all the rooks get signed DD is the FO's highest priority.

TO me it sounds like the sports writters had a little to little to due that day and ran with something they thought might happen, I trust Schefter's info over anybody at the Chronicle. So untill I hear DD say he is going to hold out I just thing it's a dumb rumor.

Damn we need training camp to start, like now.

ArlingtonTexan
07-09-2005, 10:24 PM
Hopefully, the team and Davis are handling the negotiations with mutual respect and it will get done. However, I sympathize with players in Davis' position. The collective bargaining agreement doesn't do those players much good. Besides, Davis wasn't even in the NFL when the last agreement was signed.

I am going to just agree with you here. This is the key to a deal getting done.

You make points I disagree with, but it is Satueday night and we (wifey) might be going out and enjoying life.

The Preacher
07-09-2005, 11:21 PM
If I were DD and had his history of injuries I would sign a not so outrageous contract if it had a guaranteed upfront bonus of 5-7 mil. That is a ridiculous amount of money even though compared to Portis' contract it isn't much. He risks getting the league minimum if he goes down again for a sustained period. In college he was out regularly and I don't know if he can make it 16 games. Chris Brown is a good RB when healthy but the Titans aren't going to throw crazy money his way. Unless your initials are LT the league is showing elite backs a long term investment is hard to come by. It's almost more important to get a system that can make any back look good. KC and Denver for example. :listening 17 mil over five years to run a football? Maybe that's a lowball offer but not if a third of it is guaranteed and you've had nagging injuries. I hope DD never misses a game again but if he wants to ensure his future now, he should take a smaller contract if you can call $17 million small. :whistle: But if he waited a year and made the pro bowl he could maybe get twice that. I guess I just wouldn't gamble if I were in his shoes.

edo783
07-10-2005, 12:15 AM
Where is everybody getting the nontion that DD is going to hold out? The Chronicle hacks said he "might" hold out if he dosn't get a new deal, and Schetter is saying that once all the rooks get signed DD is the FO's highest priority.

TO me it sounds like the sports writters had a little to little to due that day and ran with something they thought might happen, I trust Schefter's info over anybody at the Chronicle. So untill I hear DD say he is going to hold out I just thing it's a dumb rumor.

Damn we need training camp to start, like now.

I THINK DD is going to be hit by a comet next week and will be out for the season! See.....you can say anything, but that doesn't make it so. (Dang, I HOPE I am wrong on that one)

edo783
07-10-2005, 12:16 AM
Where is everybody getting the nontion that DD is going to hold out? The Chronicle hacks said he "might" hold out if he dosn't get a new deal, and Schetter is saying that once all the rooks get signed DD is the FO's highest priority.

TO me it sounds like the sports writters had a little to little to due that day and ran with something they thought might happen, I trust Schefter's info over anybody at the Chronicle. So untill I hear DD say he is going to hold out I just thing it's a dumb rumor.

Damn we need training camp to start, like now.

I THINK DD is going to be hit by a comet next week and will be out for the season! See.....you can say anything, just like some stupid reporter trying to make the off season interesting, but that doesn't make it so. (Dang, I HOPE I am wrong on that one)

Texas_Thrill
07-10-2005, 12:38 AM
What is with this GREED argument?

Yes, these guys get paid millions of dollars to play a game we all love but let's not forget this.

1) We ALL want to get paid the most we can at our jobs. No matter who you are I dont know anyone that says I'll take a pay cut for the company.

2) The avg. football life is only 3 or 4 years. You better get what you can while you can.

3) Football players have the WORST contract situation of the major sports (which is why the owners make so much profit) b/c they dont have to guarantee not ONE contract.

We rag on the players constantly but how about we take a look at the OWNERS for once.

Texas_Thrill
07-10-2005, 12:41 AM
As far as DD holding out. I just wouldn't do it if I was him from the standpoint we do have Morency and you dont want to sacrifice playing time ....the same time that would equal a big check when you become a free agent just to get some money now. He's kinda b/w a rock and hard place.

On one hand he can play out his current contract possibly get hurt not get a thing or not get hurt and get a BIGGGG payday.

OR he could hold out now get some definite money but not make as much b/c he wont have as many consistent seasons and possibly even lose his starting job.

dalemurphy
07-10-2005, 01:02 AM
Dominick Davis was drafted out of college and slotted a certain salary in the range of $500,000 per year with a very small bonus. Also, he is required by league rules to sign a minimum of a three year contract and can not truly explore the market until after his fourth season.

So, he had no say in what team he could play for and also no say in how much money he could try to make. Considering that a football player's career only lasts about 4 years on average, I would hardly describe a possible holdout by Davis as greedy.

With all the talk about how selfish players are, I think fans are worse. They are not only often ignorant of the game but are very disrespectful of the players. Fans often don't care about anything but their own experience- whether in the stadium or at home watching on TV. Apparently, there are a number of selfish fans who don't care about the people they root for on this message board.

disaacks3
07-10-2005, 01:30 AM
With all the talk about how selfish players are, I think fans are worse. They are not only often ignorant of the game but are very disrespectful of the players. Fans often don't care about anything but their own experience- whether in the stadium or at home watching on TV. Apparently, there are a number of selfish fans who don't care about the people they root for on this message board. Why should the 'average' fan care...any more than the team management cares about the players or the fans? Fans are paid patrons of the organization..if they receive a shoddy product, they have the right to complain.

If you get lousy service in a restaurant, you tell the Manager. You don't ask the server if there's a problem with their "home life", that's the Manager's issue...you just want YOUR order right.

ATX
07-10-2005, 05:11 AM
not to mention that there are 1000 times more fans than players. makes it alot easier to scape goat the fans as bad fans. and fans are paying patrons, not paid patrons, unless i'm missing out on something.

rittenhouserobz
07-10-2005, 08:56 AM
As far as DD holding out. I just wouldn't do it if I was him from the standpoint we do have Morency and you dont want to sacrifice playing time ....the same time that would equal a big check when you become a free agent just to get some money now. He's kinda b/w a rock and hard place.

On one hand he can play out his current contract possibly get hurt not get a thing or not get hurt and get a BIGGGG payday.

OR he could hold out now get some definite money but not make as much b/c he wont have as many consistent seasons and possibly even lose his starting job.

Don't forget this option. He signs a medocre deal for insurance this year. Then he makes the pro-bowl and hires Drew Rosenhaus and wants a larger signing bous with double the salary. scary thought huh? :crying:

dalemurphy
07-10-2005, 11:02 AM
Why should the 'average' fan care...any more than the team management cares about the players or the fans? Fans are paid patrons of the organization..if they receive a shoddy product, they have the right to complain.

If you get lousy service in a restaurant, you tell the Manager. You don't ask the server if there's a problem with their "home life", that's the Manager's issue...you just want YOUR order right.


What does this have to do with Dominick Davis? I would agree that if the Texans don't sign him to a reasonable extension and he sits out then you could be upset with the organization if the running game suffers as a result.

Texans Pride
07-10-2005, 01:44 PM
Whatever happened to honoring the contract you signed?

I agree DD has done an excellent job for us, showing high character off the field, and a strong work ethic on the field. However, I donít think that gives him or any other player the right to hold out to get more money. There is such a thing as honor and living up to your commitments. If you sign a contract committing to play for a certain amount of money and time period, then you should play out your existing contract. I have heard many players say it (Farve), and I happen to agree, if you work hard, and produce, you will be rewarded by your organization.

keyfro
07-10-2005, 01:55 PM
exactly...Texans Pride has hit the "nail" straight on the head...i know every player will come back and talk about how the gm's don't honor their contracts as well...and i agree...it all needs to stop...this game needs to be more about the game than a business IMO...personally i'd like to see it get back to the way it was in the 50's and 60's..(yes i know i wasn't around back then but we all know how it was)...players playing for average pay...and being the average guy...not these overpaid millionaires...might just make it more fan friendly then...and yes i know i'm dreaming because that will never happen

as for DD...i heard that after the texans sign their draft picks they'll go back and talk to a few players about extentions...DD being the main one but probably PB as well...so let's not go nuts just yet...i think DD is man enough to wait til after training camp to get his contract extended

dalemurphy
07-10-2005, 02:36 PM
Whatever happened to honoring the contract you signed?

I agree DD has done an excellent job for us, showing high character off the field, and a strong work ethic on the field. However, I donít think that gives him or any other player the right to hold out to get more money. There is such a thing as honor and living up to your commitments. If you sign a contract committing to play for a certain amount of money and time period, then you should play out your existing contract. I have heard many players say it (Farve), and I happen to agree, if you work hard, and produce, you will be rewarded by your organization.

Really, so if Davis blows out his knee this season, Davis will still be rewarded with a new contract?

NFL contracts are not binding. NFL clubs regularly release players early into contracts without compensation for the player. If Davis doesn't receive an extension with a good bonus then he could get injured an never cash in on his years of service and his talent.

disaacks3
07-10-2005, 02:45 PM
What does this have to do with Dominick Davis? I would agree that if the Texans don't sign him to a reasonable extension and he sits out then you could be upset with the organization if the running game suffers as a result. Absolutely nothing...which was the point I was making. Blaming fans for Team / player relations is off-target.

Really, so if Davis blows out his knee this season, Davis will still be rewarded with a new contract?

NFL contracts are not binding. NFL clubs regularly release players early into contracts without compensation for the player. If Davis doesn't receive an extension with a good bonus then he could get injured an never cash in on his years of service and his talent. That makes him different than any other "working stiff" how? If I suffer an injury (even on the job) that makes me incapable of fulfilling the requirements of my job, they let me go and get someone who can. Why do you think that athletes take out large insurance policies with LLoyds?

dalemurphy
07-10-2005, 07:37 PM
Absolutely nothing...which was the point I was making. Blaming fans for Team / player relations is off-target.

That makes him different than any other "working stiff" how? If I suffer an injury (even on the job) that makes me incapable of fulfilling the requirements of my job, they let me go and get someone who can. Why do you think that athletes take out large insurance policies with LLoyds?

In your scenario, I guess it would be ethically long to threaten to go work somewhere else for more money or just stay home and do something else. Is that what you are saying? Furthermore, would Dominick Davis begrudge you the right to leave your job or ask for more money using what leverage you have?

disaacks3
07-10-2005, 07:53 PM
In your scenario, I guess it would be ethically long to threaten to go work somewhere else for more money or just stay home and do something else. Is that what you are saying? Furthermore, would Dominick Davis begrudge you the right to leave your job or ask for more money using what leverage you have?Actually, in my scenario (let's call this the "real world" scenario) I am contractually obligated to perform MY duties for only MY employer and am subject to civil penalties and lawsuit if I break those obligations.

Are you finished with the pointless (and silly) comparisons of the "real world" to that of prefessional athletes? If it's your position that we fans are wrong to expect an athlete to live up to his contractual obligations, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.

As an aside, have you seen the OTHER THREAD (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=137955#post137955) on just this very subject?

TexansTrueFan
07-10-2005, 09:22 PM
this is just something to get us by for another month before pre-season starts. We need something to talk about.

Wolf
07-10-2005, 09:43 PM
if Davis gets injured.. that is a risk he takes... yes contracts aren't guaranteed but I image that is why some players push the ole signing bonus thing. .. I also wonder how much of a players salary goes to insurance in case this happens(injury) like what happened to Willie Magahee .

anyway.. Davis is solid and not spectacular. to me he'd be a fool to hold out..

TexansTrueFan
07-10-2005, 09:46 PM
if Davis gets injured.. that is a risk he takes... yes contracts aren't guaranteed but I image that is why some players push the ole signing bonus thing. .. I also wonder how much of a players salary goes to insurance in case this happens(injury) like what happened to Willie Magahee .

anyway.. Davis is solid and not spectacular. to me he'd be a fool to hold out..


i agree with you, but i feel Davis clicks well with this offense and i think we have a better chance of competing if we wanna win.

Wolf
07-10-2005, 09:49 PM
i agree with you, but i feel Davis clicks well with this offense and i think we have a better chance of competing if we wanna win.
agreed.. he fits this system..

reason I say Davis is solid is when Wells got to play last year with the same offensive line that DD is playing.. if memory serves me right.. stats were about equal.. now if Wells with his body size would run as hard as DD we might have a position battle going on , but right now.. DD is the best we have seen in a houston uniform

TexansTrueFan
07-10-2005, 09:53 PM
yeah wells did pretty good when he was in. Not near as versitile in the passing game as D.D and not near as shifty either. If Davis can have the same consitency in the 1st of the season as he seems to have in the 2nd we should compete for a play off spot. And if our Oline isnt to good this year Davis is always there to keep him out of trouble which is good for carrs health.

dalemurphy
07-10-2005, 10:19 PM
Actually, in my scenario (let's call this the "real world" scenario) I am contractually obligated to perform MY duties for only MY employer and am subject to civil penalties and lawsuit if I break those obligations.

Are you finished with the pointless (and silly) comparisons of the "real world" to that of prefessional athletes? If it's your position that we fans are wrong to expect an athlete to live up to his contractual obligations, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.

As an aside, have you seen the OTHER THREAD (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=137955#post137955) on just this very subject?

Well, in Texas, neither party is bound by a contract. Your employer can fire you without cause and you can seek employment without fear of reprisal. It's quite simple. The NFL doesn't honor its contracts with players so players shouldn't be expected to honor the contracts either. I'm sorry if that's inconvenient for fans but that is the environment the owners created through collective bargaining.

Texans Pride
07-10-2005, 10:20 PM
In your scenario, I guess it would be ethically wrong to threaten to go work somewhere else for more money or just stay home and do something else. Is that what you are saying? Furthermore, would Dominick Davis begrudge you the right to leave your job or ask for more money using what leverage you have?


I am teacher, at the beginning of each year, I sign a contract with my school district stating that I will remain with my school for the entire year. If I do not stay I am subject to penalty.

Just this year I was offered a new job with more money, more days off, and much better benefits. I did not take the job because I HONORED THE CONTRACT THAT I HAD ALREADY SIGNED.

I know it's a novel concept in this day and age, but I still believe in honor and integrity.

Texans Pride
07-10-2005, 10:22 PM
The NFL doesn't honor its contracts with players so players shouldn't be expected to honor the contracts either.


I agree with your point here

dalemurphy
07-10-2005, 10:23 PM
if Davis gets injured.. that is a risk he takes... yes contracts aren't guaranteed but I image that is why some players push the ole signing bonus thing. ..

But, as a 4th round pick, he had no ability to demand a signing bonus. Instead, he was simply slotted into position. He had no say in who he would play for nor did he have power to negotiate his deal.

Yet, 2 years later, after he's proven himself to be much more valuable than what he's been paid, you would say that it's wrong for him to use the only leverage he has in order to get a signing bonus that gives him security before he goes out and risks his health for the team again this year?

dalemurphy
07-10-2005, 10:29 PM
I am teacher, at the beginning of each year, I sign a contract with my school district stating that I will remain with my school for the entire year. If I do not stay I am subject to penalty.

Just this year I was offered a new job with more money, more days off, and much better benefits. I did not take the job because I HONORED THE CONTRACT THAT I HAD ALREADY SIGNED.

I know it's a novel concept in this day and age, but I still believe in honor and integrity.


Honor and integrity can't be divorced from context. For instance, if you're playing certain strategic games, deceit may be part of the game. In those cases, you are not more or less honorable if you practice deceit.

Similarly, in collective bargaining agreement and the position Davis finds himself in, holding out in the middle of a non-binding rookie contract has nothing to do with honor or integrity. Otherwise, without exception and including the Texans, every NFL organization lacks honor and integrity. By the way, if that's the case, why would you root for such an organization if such things are so important to you?

Carr Bombed
07-11-2005, 03:31 AM
But, as a 4th round pick, he had no ability to demand a signing bonus. Instead, he was simply slotted into position. He had no say in who he would play for nor did he have power to negotiate his deal.

Yet, 2 years later, after he's proven himself to be much more valuable than what he's been paid, you would say that it's wrong for him to use the only leverage he has in order to get a signing bonus that gives him security before he goes out and risks his health for the team again this year?

YES, he signed the contract.

Yes Texas is a fire at will state, its not a "renegotiate at will" state. If I sign a contract I'm expected to fullfill my end of the contract and can still be let go at anytime.

Davis was the steal of the draft...WHY?....because not only have we've gotten production out of him beyond our wildest dreams, but because he hardly counts against the cap. Thats what makes a steal a STEAL

Also I don't see anything wrong with the fact that organizations can cut the player and the contract. In the "SALARY CAP" era that we play in, I don't see how you could have it any other way, It would be impossible. Think about it you would have greedy players landing huge contracts that they know are garranteed so they would be cadillacing, having nothing to play for, eating up your teams cap. You would be stuck with team destroying deals with NO WAY out of them and NO WAY to sign your deserving players, like D. Davis, your team would be SCREWED for YEARS, kinda like the NBA.

You can't have it both ways either. The players get paid to produce and when they don't produce, do you see them handing money back over....NO. You talk about the players protecting themselves, well this is the only way owners and gms can protect themselves, which in turn protects us "fans" from having to watch one of our NFL teams turn into the "LA Clippers" or the "New York Knicks" I'm sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the players. They play a game for a living, (while I'm fixing to have to go off to war) regardless if they make 500,000 dollars a year (which by the way isn't a small salary so don't cry for DD. He gets paid damn good money to do what he does) or 5 mil. a year. Teachers get paid peanuts and their professions are 100x more important in the big scheme of things than a insignificant football player.

I like DD and he has been great for this team and he'll be rewarded for it, all he has to do is show up and play and the rest will take care of itself.

CrumplerFan
07-11-2005, 06:13 AM
As far as i know, he goes to work and trains with the rest of the team, yet. So if his work ethic allowed him to participate in the OTA's, why not the Training Camp also? He knows that the Texans want to keep him and it shouldn't be so difficult to arrange the Cap numbers for 2005, so he surely will fit under the Cap even with a new contract.

dalemurphy
07-11-2005, 08:12 AM
YES, he signed the contract.

Yes Texas is a fire at will state, its not a "renegotiate at will" state. If I sign a contract I'm expected to fullfill my end of the contract and can still be let go at anytime.

Davis was the steal of the draft...WHY?....because not only have we've gotten production out of him beyond our wildest dreams, but because he hardly counts against the cap. Thats what makes a steal a STEAL

Also I don't see anything wrong with the fact that organizations can cut the player and the contract. In the "SALARY CAP" era that we play in, I don't see how you could have it any other way, It would be impossible. Think about it you would have greedy players landing huge contracts that they know are garranteed so they would be cadillacing, having nothing to play for, eating up your teams cap. You would be stuck with team destroying deals with NO WAY out of them and NO WAY to sign your deserving players, like D. Davis, your team would be SCREWED for YEARS, kinda like the NBA.

You can't have it both ways either. The players get paid to produce and when they don't produce, do you see them handing money back over....NO. You talk about the players protecting themselves, well this is the only way owners and gms can protect themselves, which in turn protects us "fans" from having to watch one of our NFL teams turn into the "LA Clippers" or the "New York Knicks" I'm sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the players. They play a game for a living, (while I'm fixing to have to go off to war) regardless if they make 500,000 dollars a year (which by the way isn't a small salary so don't cry for DD. He gets paid damn good money to do what he does) or 5 mil. a year. Teachers get paid peanuts and their professions are 100x more important in the big scheme of things than a insignificant football player.


First of all, when players don't perform they get cut. So, yeah, they don't get paid anymore. Sometimes, the player does perform but he still gets cut (Jamie Sharper).

Yes, $500,000 is a lot of money. However, not many teachers I know suffer injuries that prevent them from teaching for more than 3 or 4 years. The life of a running back is very short. It is likely that Davis' skills and marketability will diminish by his 5th season. Therefore, it is prudent for him to pressure the team to renegotiate. Teachers may be more important but their skills are not nearly as marketable as a professional football player. Also, teachers aren't asked to perform at a high level in order to retain their jobs. In the NFL, you have to perform at an incredibly high level or you'll quickly be out of the league. Retired players also face difficult physical problems as they age as a result of their years of service.

The truth is this: Fans don't care about players. All they care about is their vicarious experience. Anything that takes enjoyment away from that is an inconvenience and not tolerated. As a fan, I'd certainly be frustrated if Davis held out. However, I'm not going to fashion a ridiculous ethical framework that condemns it- just so I can also feel morally indignant.

Vinny
07-11-2005, 11:44 AM
They play a game for a living, (while I'm fixing to have to go off to war) regardless if they make 500,000 dollars a year (which by the way isn't a small salary so don't cry for DD. He gets paid damn good money to do what he does) or 5 mil. a year. Teachers get paid peanuts and their professions are 100x more important in the big scheme of things than a insignificant football player. Insignificant? Sure, but you can't compare this properly when it is so out of context. Football players are performers like singers are performers. They get paid big money from people like you and I out of our disposable income because most of them have unique talents. If you paid 50 bucks to see a concert (name your favorite group) and the band got sick you probably wouldn't want to listen to just anyone fill in. You wouldn't want to spend your $50 bucks to watch me or most teachers sing as their replacement. Unique skill factors in somewhere. Call it unfair...but it's just how it is. If you can generate the revinue, you should get your share of it as an entertainer/performer.

Frankly, I think the NFL has it right. Each year a team has to measure worth/unique talent in relation to cap hit. You get paid per your contract IF you make the team. In Sharper and Foreman's case, their salaries were not worth it in relation to their declining talents. Yes, they were under contract, but they were not good enough to make the team in relation to this juxtaposition of contract worth/team value. You negotiate your contract and will get paid IF you can make the team. Players get cut from squads from High School and in the NFL you can get cut because your cap hit is unfriendly. That is the chance you take for grasping the big bucks though.

Texas_Thrill
07-11-2005, 01:15 PM
I agree with you there Vinny. This thread should be putting a LIGHT on the values of our society. We don't give homage or respect to honorable professions like military, teaching, and such b/c there is a belief that ANYONE can become a teacher or anyone can be in the military which unfortunately is not true.

You can say oh well if i go to school i can be a teacher....does that make you a good one? The fact of the matter is SPORT ARE ENTERTAINEMENT. Just like music, movies, and anything else. Jim carrey makes 25 million PER MOVIE. :bomb:

Society's priorities should be examined but in the meantime if the NFL refuses to honor the contracts they sign or will come in and CUT the player's money....then I will not penalize any player who decides he needs more.
Player's like favre are the franchise and will be taken care of so for someone like him to criticize a javon walker who could wind up out of the NFL at any point (though not likely) is obsurd.

Carr Bombed
07-11-2005, 02:05 PM
Insignificant? Sure, but you can't compare this properly when it is so out of context. Football players are performers like singers are performers. They get paid big money from people like you and I out of our disposable income because most of them have unique talents. If you paid 50 bucks to see a concert (name your favorite group) and the band got sick you probably wouldn't want to listen to just anyone fill in. You wouldn't want to spend your $50 bucks to watch me or most teachers sing as their replacement. Unique skill factors in somewhere. Call it unfair...but it's just how it is. If you can generate the revinue, you should get your share of it as an entertainer/performer.

Frankly, I think the NFL has it right. Each year a team has to measure worth/unique talent in relation to cap hit. You get paid per your contract IF you make the team. In Sharper and Foreman's case, their salaries were not worth it in relation to their declining talents. Yes, they were under contract, but they were not good enough to make the team in relation to this juxtaposition of contract worth/team value. You negotiate your contract and will get paid IF you can make the team. Players get cut from squads from High School and in the NFL you can get cut because your cap hit is unfriendly. That is the chance you take for grasping the big bucks though.

Vinny I understand what your saying and also understand why football players get paid to do what they do, I don't have a problem with that at all. I do have a problem however with the players who hold out when they are under contract, thats what I was trying to say. Talking about teachers and the military, I was just trying to put things in perspective.

El Tejano
07-11-2005, 02:13 PM
I think we need to remind ourselves that Bob Mcnair plays a huge role in this also. I believe he only wants guys on this team with good character and so far he has done that. Should the character change, so will the player at that position. I also believe that Mcnair knows how to handle situations like this and has expressed the necessary class needed to make sure DD gives us the same shot we gave him to get a new deal done.

wrestler4life
07-11-2005, 02:20 PM
I think that DD knows that this was a RB deep draft, and even a proven vet like Henry is not getting much love. He would be stupid to not sign on with us.

El Tejano
07-11-2005, 02:31 PM
They could be waiting to see what the best contract for the rookie running backs was given to set a standard in the negotiations.

Carr Bombed
07-11-2005, 02:37 PM
First of all, when players don't perform they get cut. So, yeah, they don't get paid anymore. Sometimes, the player does perform but he still gets cut (Jamie Sharper).

Yes, $500,000 is a lot of money. However, not many teachers I know suffer injuries that prevent them from teaching for more than 3 or 4 years. The life of a running back is very short. It is likely that Davis' skills and marketability will diminish by his 5th season. Therefore, it is prudent for him to pressure the team to renegotiate. Teachers may be more important but their skills are not nearly as marketable as a professional football player. Also, teachers aren't asked to perform at a high level in order to retain their jobs. In the NFL, you have to perform at an incredibly high level or you'll quickly be out of the league. Retired players also face difficult physical problems as they age as a result of their years of service.

The truth is this: Fans don't care about players. All they care about is their vicarious experience. Anything that takes enjoyment away from that is an inconvenience and not tolerated. As a fan, I'd certainly be frustrated if Davis held out. However, I'm not going to fashion a ridiculous ethical framework that condemns it- just so I can also feel morally indignant.

Yes when players don't perform they get cut. If someone doesn't perform at a high enough standard at their job, they get fired. You say sometimes when a player does perform he still gets cut and thats true, but that happens in the real world every DAY. People go to their jobs they've been working at admirably for 15 to 20 years only to be laid off in a shrinking work force, its ugly, but is a fact of life.

You say Retired players face health issues and that is also true, but football players made the decision to play football knowing full well what risks were involved. In Houston there are thousands of people who walk into work everday at the many surrounding petroluem plants who face even worse health risks and many aren't told or know about certain exposures until years later when something pops up.

Thats the reason why I don't feel sorry for the players. Yes I know players could suffer a career ending injury, but most of them have college degrees, because of the chance of a free education they were given and can walk straight into the both are many other jobs. Most players retire in their early 30's, thats still young, most are millionaire's who can then inturn find other high paying jobs or endorsements.

Does this mean I don't care about the players....NO, (I just don't feel sorry for them). I do care about the players, thats one of the reasons I go out and watch the games. Thats one of the reasons I go out and buy their jersey's and cards and all other kinds of merchandise. I hope Davis gets whats comming to him, he deserves it, he should just do it the right way.

El Tejano
07-11-2005, 03:26 PM
I think Davis will. Just as we see the risk, I am sure his agent does as well.

dalemurphy
07-11-2005, 04:43 PM
I hope Davis gets whats comming to him, he deserves it, he should just do it the right way.


Yes and the right way is to use what leverage he has. If the contract is not binding for the team then it can't be binding for him either. Why is this difficult to understand? If the Texans could get away with keeping Davis 4 years at his paltry salary, they would do it. If the signing happens it will be because the Texans understand that their will be ramifications for them if they don't- either Davis will hold out or it could affect the relationship that they have with many of the players. This is Davis' career and he owes it to himself to make sure he cashes in on it.

Everyone talks about the real world. Fine. I don't know many people who pass on better jobs for more money out of some sense of honor. If so, that honor is likely misplaced.

Fans envy players and, as a result, often resent their success. Too bad those fans still throw money at the sport. If they didn't, tickets would be a lot less expensive for people like myself who truly appreciate the game and the players.

Texans Pride
07-11-2005, 06:31 PM
Everyone talks about the real world. Fine. I don't know many people who pass on better jobs for more money out of some sense of honor. If so, that honor is likely misplaced.

Hi Dale, my name is Ashley Ashna. Nice to meet you. Now you can say you've met someone who passed on another job because he honored his existing contract :) Maybe we can have a beverage together at a future Texans game. And my honor is in the right place for me, maybe not for you.

Carr Bombed
07-12-2005, 04:29 AM
Fans envy players and, as a result, often resent their success. Too bad those fans still throw money at the sport. If they didn't, tickets would be a lot less expensive for people like myself who truly appreciate the game and the players.

WHAT....so now you have the authority to judge who is a real fan and who isn't. For the record I don't envy any football player, just dont believe they should receive special treatment. The fact is the people who post on this board is not your average fan. D. Davis will get whats his not because he backed our front office into a corner, but for the fact that he deserves it. Most players will get their day in the sun and so will DD. Maybe I just have different morals, but I was brought up to fullfill your obligations and your only as good as your word.

dalemurphy
07-12-2005, 08:31 AM
WHAT....so now you have the authority to judge who is a real fan and who isn't. For the record I don't envy any football player, just dont believe they should receive special treatment. The fact is the people who post on this board is not your average fan. D. Davis will get whats his not because he backed our front office into a corner, but for the fact that he deserves it. Most players will get their day in the sun and so will DD. Maybe I just have different morals, but I was brought up to fullfill your obligations and your only as good as your word.


Good Grief! Why is it difficult to understand that an employee shouldn't feel more abliged to his employer than his employer his to him? Nobody is suggesting special treatment for players. I'm trying to get you to understand that they are real people facing the same issues we do. Of all the sports, football players are not overpaid premadonas who abuse the system.

The contract isn't actually a commitment is this instance. How can it be? At least one party (the team) reserves the right to end it at anytime. Besides, holding out is simply a form of considering retirement. Do you worker drones also believe it is unethical to retire before your term is up?

ArlingtonTexan
07-12-2005, 08:54 AM
Good Grief! Why is it difficult to understand that an employee shouldn't feel more abliged to his employer than his employer his to him? Nobody is suggesting special treatment for players. I'm trying to get you to understand that they are real people facing the same issues we do. Of all the sports, football players are not overpaid premadonas who abuse the system.

The contract isn't actually a commitment is this instance. How can it be? At least one party (the team) reserves the right to end it at anytime. Besides, holding out is simply a form of considering retirement. Do you worker drones also believe it is unethical to retire before your term is up?

Wow, just think, I only thought it was a bad time for DomDavis to holdout, not that he would be evil incarnate for holding out. Most of us don't have the power to negotiate significantly with our employers (even during the initial hiring process) and while I will judge the wisdom of some players holding out and I sure as heck don't fault them for using the power afforded to them because of thier talent.

dalemurphy
07-12-2005, 10:21 AM
Wow, just think, I only thought it was a bad time for DomDavis to holdout, not that he would be evil incarnate for holding out. Most of us don't have the power to negotiate significantly with our employers (even during the initial hiring process) and while I will judge the wisdom of some players holding out and I sure as heck don't fault them for using the power afforded to them because of thier talent.

You would think I was writing the Communist Manifesto the way people have responded to my argument. I absolutely agree with you that a situation like Terrell Owens' is not the same as Dominick Davis'.

chuckm
07-13-2005, 09:55 PM
Insignificant? Sure, but you can't compare this properly when it is so out of context. Football players are performers like singers are performers. They get paid big money from people like you and I out of our disposable income because most of them have unique talents. If you paid 50 bucks to see a concert (name your favorite group) and the band got sick you probably wouldn't want to listen to just anyone fill in. You wouldn't want to spend your $50 bucks to watch me or most teachers sing as their replacement. Unique skill factors in somewhere. Call it unfair...but it's just how it is. If you can generate the revinue, you should get your share of it as an entertainer/performer.


I know that every word of the above statement is true .... yet I can't shake the feeling that every year little by little the gap between Joe Athlete and Joe Common Man gets bigger and bigger. When I hear on the news that an athlete has broken the law and my first instinct is that they'll suffer no consequences, I'm dismayed. As the father of a 13 year old boy that would rather wear a Randy Moss jersey than an Aaron Glenn jersey, I'm dismayed. When I read that an athlete is insulted by a contract offer that pays him more money in a week than all of my children's teachers make in a year combined, I'm dismayed. When I hear that a sport is cancelled for an entire year because the owners and the players can't agree, I'm dismayed. When I see that Barry Bonds (assuming he ever gets healthly) will break Hank Aaron's record after using steriods (I spent many nights as a kid listening to Braves games on a transistor radio with ear piece), I'm dismayed .... When I think of billionaires telling taxpayers that they'd better "step up to the plate" or they'll take their team elsewhere, I'm dismayed .... When I think of my grandson growing up with sports and wondering if he'll have the opportunity to feel about sports the way I did when I was very young, I'm dismayed .... So when I read a response like Vinny's I know he's right but I'm dismayed ...

Vinny
07-13-2005, 10:03 PM
This isn't an athletic thing. There are lots of narrow-minded people inside and outside of sports. If you are part of any company that generates billions of dollars you will seek out your fair share of what you generate. I don't find that sad because I think they should get a huge chunk of the pie. Personally, I don't look at players as any more than being football players. They are no smarter or better than you or I. I don't look up to them as role models because they just flat out are no different than any stranger on the street.

btw, I don't know why a kid would feel closer to Glenn when he is closer to your age and at the end of his career. Moss is a special talent and he is younger. I can understand why he would rather have a Moss jersey. It's up to you to explain what he is impressed with and break down what he is representing by suporting the Moss jersey. I sure I didn't like the same players my Dad did when I was a child either. I probably really liked a few worthless punks without knowing about the Man behind the face-mask.

chuckm
07-13-2005, 10:20 PM
This isn't an athletic thing. There are lots of narrow-minded people inside and outside of sports. If you are part of any company that generates billions of dollars you will seek out your fair share of what you generate. I don't find that sad because I think they should get a huge chunk of the pie. Personally, I don't look at players as any more than being football players. They are no smarter or better than you or I. I don't look up to them as role models because they just flat out are no different than any stranger on the street.

I agree in principle but this is a sports-related message board. At least you didn't lecture me about a "free markey economy".



btw, I don't know why a kid would feel closer to Glenn when he is closer to your age and at the end of his career. Moss is a special talent and he is younger. I can understand why he would rather have a Moss jersey. It's up to you to explain what he is impressed with and break down what he is representing by suporting the Moss jersey.

I'm not entering into a pissing match with you about this one. I'll continue the process of raising my children in this day and time and you'll do the same with yours ....

Vinny
07-13-2005, 10:29 PM
Hey, just my thoughts. I'm not pissing on anything.

chuckm
07-13-2005, 10:44 PM
ditto

Texans Pride
07-13-2005, 11:17 PM
Saw that one coming. . . :eek: