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Texian
11-26-2013, 08:45 PM
Wow ... and Johnny :heart: wasn't even around then .:spit:

Johnny is going to live by the sword, die by the sword. Johnny will be much like Michael Vick was in Atlanta except with a better arm. If he gets a coach who confines him to the pocket like Philly has with Vick, Johnny will get killed like Vick in Philly. There will not be a more exciting player to watch if Johnny is allowed to be Johnny. IMHO Johnny will get his team very close to the Big Show but in the end, no cigar....(much like the SEC Championship Game) all my post about Johnny have been directed at those who say his game will not translate to the NFL. IMHO his game will and it will be better than many.....and hey, I'm not an Aggie......and anyone who can't say the Johnny Football hasn't been the most exciting player in college football these last two years is full of bovine manure and doesn't know the round brown from a hole in the ground......that is all. :) I see your :spit:
and raise you two :spit: :spit:

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2013, 08:54 PM
Johnny is going to live by the sword, die by the sword. Johnny will be much like Michael Vick was in Atlanta except with a better arm. If he gets a coach who confines him to the pocket like Philly has with Vick, Johnny will get killed like Vick in Philly. There will not be a more exciting player to watch if Johnny is allowed to be Johnny. IMHO Johnny will get his team very close to the Big Show but in the end, no cigar....(much like the SEC Championship Game) all my post about Johnny have been directed at those who say his game will not translate to the NFL. IMHO his game will and it will be better than many.....and hey, I'm not an Aggie.

He's got some good things going for him and he could be good . It will be exciting come February when the whole process takes off . That's the state of Texans football these days , draft talk .

steelbtexan
11-26-2013, 08:59 PM
If you hit 40% of your draft you've done well .

KC picked 1st overall last year and their not so happy with Fisher . Joeckel is out for the year and the Dolphins guy can't stay on the field . It's a crap shoot that gets revealed 3 years down the road .

That's why most yrs I'm in favor of trading up to the 2nd rd. You should be able to hit on your 1st and 2nd rd picks. (Even at the level of Fisher you've got a contributor) So you add 3 contributors each yr. (Unless your Rick und picking Harris/JOkOye etc....) Then in rds 5-7 I pick talented small school guys. Atleast they will add speed to the ST's. (Lord knows the Texans could use that) Or talented but troubled guys. (Lyrela/Dyer/Crowell) If they fall of the wagon you really haven't lost anything except a late rd pick that probably wouldn't have contributed to the team anyway.

That's my philosophy, Obviously Rick has a different philosophy that hasn't worked out too well.

BTW, I'm a fan of trading down this yr. the cut off is the middle of the 4th rd for talent that can help your team this yr. Say trade down for both of the Browns #1's and because the Texans should get a comp 5th rd pick trade a 5th/6th rd pick to move up into the 4th rd.

Your draft would look like this.
Rd.1
Rd.1
Rd.2 pick 33
Rd.3 top of rd
Rd.4 Top of rd. pick
Rd.4 Mid rd pick.
Rd.5 comp pick
Rd.7 Top rd pick

You could add 6 top 100-115 picks in a deep draft and add a RB like Dyer in the 5th and a TE like Lyrela in the 7th.

Do you think a draft like this would help the Texans fill some holes and ad much needed depth/speed?

This isn't the brain surgery Rick/Gary make it out to be. It just takes hard work and accumen for the job.

infantrycak
11-26-2013, 09:07 PM
Johnny is going to live by the sword, die by the sword. Johnny will be much like Michael Vick was in Atlanta except with a better arm.

In what way is JM's arm better than Vick's?

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2013, 09:26 PM
That's why most yrs I'm in favor of trading up to the 2nd rd. You should be able to hit on your 1st and 2nd rd picks. (Even at the level of Fisher you've got a contributor) So you add 3 contributors each yr. (Unless your Rick und picking Harris/JOkOye etc....) Then in rds 5-7 I pick talented small school guys. Atleast they will add speed to the ST's. (Lord knows the Texans could use that) Or talented but troubled guys. (Lyrela/Dyer/Crowell) If they fall of the wagon you really haven't lost anything except a late rd pick that probably wouldn't have contributed to the team anyway.

That's my philosophy, Obviously Rick has a different philosophy that hasn't worked out too well.

BTW, I'm a fan of trading down this yr. the cut off is the middle of the 4th rd for talent that can help your team this yr. Say trade down for both of the Browns #1's and because the Texans should get a comp 5th rd pick trade a 5th/6th rd pick to move up into the 4th rd.

Your draft would look like this.
Rd.1
Rd.1
Rd.2 pick 33
Rd.3 top of rd
Rd.4 Top of rd. pick
Rd.4 Mid rd pick.
Rd.5 comp pick
Rd.7 Top rd pick

You could add 6 top 100-115 picks in a deep draft and add a RB like Dyer in the 5th and a TE like Lyrela in the 7th.

Do you think a draft like this would help the Texans fill some holes and ad much needed depth/speed?

This isn't the brain surgery Rick/Gary make it out to be. It just takes hard work and accumen for the job.

The Texans need good cheap players badly . Their cap looks like a meth heads billfold because I think they anticipated the cap growing .

I think the big three areas are QB , OL , OLB . They need depth everywhere . I think you can't get everything in one year but you can get some more of your building blocks in place . That's where the later round guys come in . Get a RB , fat guys , and then guys who hit a 4.4 .

I think a competent QB and a dominant pass rusher cover up lots of bad players . The Texans are in luck because they're halfway there . JJ needs help and those guys get draft early as does a QB . So a QB , DE or OLB , RT , G , DT . If Gary leaves they might not run a ZBS but you need upgrades anyway .

kiwitexansfan
11-26-2013, 09:33 PM
, and then guys who hit a 4.4 .


Is that you Al Davis?

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2013, 10:06 PM
Is that you Al Davis?

Zombie AL

Texian
11-26-2013, 10:28 PM
In what way is JM's arm better than Vick's?

accuracy, completion %

infantrycak
11-26-2013, 11:35 PM
accuracy, completion %

OK, that's not normally what people refer to as arm. But thanks for clarifying.

steelbtexan
11-26-2013, 11:55 PM
The Texans need good cheap players badly . Their cap looks like a meth heads billfold because I think they anticipated the cap growing .

I think the big three areas are QB , OL , OLB . They need depth everywhere . I think you can't get everything in one year but you can get some more of your building blocks in place . That's where the later round guys come in . Get a RB , fat guys , and then guys who hit a 4.4 .

I think a competent QB and a dominant pass rusher cover up lots of bad players . The Texans are in luck because they're halfway there . JJ needs help and those guys get draft early as does a QB . So a QB , DE or OLB , RT , G , DT . If Gary leaves they might not run a ZBS but you need upgrades anyway .

They also need a DT to control the LOS so Cushing has a chance to stay healthy. I wouldn't mind seeing Clowney in the 1st OT in Schreff in the 2nd McCarron 3rd and Carrethers in the 4th.

Add nickle CB to the list McCain is awful. How confident are you in Rick's ability to judge talent, hire HC, put the right people in place for the rebuild? That thought colors me skeptical at best.

Shaft75
11-27-2013, 12:28 AM
Right Tackle

Texian
11-27-2013, 09:50 AM
The Texans need good cheap players badly . Their cap looks like a meth heads billfold because I think they anticipated the cap growing .

I think the big three areas are QB , OL , OLB . They need depth everywhere . I think you can't get everything in one year but you can get some more of your building blocks in place . That's where the later round guys come in . Get a RB , fat guys , and then guys who hit a 4.4 .

I think a competent QB and a dominant pass rusher cover up lots of bad players . The Texans are in luck because they're halfway there . JJ needs help and those guys get draft early as does a QB . So a QB , DE or OLB , RT , G , DT . If Gary leaves they might not run a ZBS but you need upgrades anyway .

Foster is having back surgery and Tate is a FA. Daniels coming off 2nd major injury on backside of career and Graham is a FA. Earl Mitchell and Antonio Smith are FA. Only ILB on current 2014 roster is Cushing. = DIRE STRAITS

beerlover
11-27-2013, 10:04 AM
Foster is having back surgery and Tate is a FA. Daniels coming off 2nd major injury on backside of career and Graham is a FA. Earl Mitchell and Antonio Smith are FA. Only ILB on current 2014 roster is Cushing. = DIRE STRAITS

I use to love Dire Straights, lol :specnatz:

Texian
11-27-2013, 11:10 AM
I use to love Dire Straights, lol :specnatz:

I still do, one of my all time favorites, from 6:40 is about as good as it gets; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2nQZPC2uTs

Honoring Earl 34
11-27-2013, 11:36 AM
Foster is having back surgery and Tate is a FA. Daniels coming off 2nd major injury on backside of career and Graham is a FA. Earl Mitchell and Antonio Smith are FA. Only ILB on current 2014 roster is Cushing. = DIRE STRAITS

So you are playing whack a mole to The Sultans of Swing . A Rubic's cube has less options than the Texans come draft day . A RT helps the QB who helps everyone on offense . An OLB helps JJ and the Pass rush which helps the secondary . Once again you can't fill a swimming pool with a couple of buckets of water . :dancer:

mussop
11-27-2013, 01:16 PM
That's why most yrs I'm in favor of trading up to the 2nd rd. You should be able to hit on your 1st and 2nd rd picks. (Even at the level of Fisher you've got a contributor) So you add 3 contributors each yr. (Unless your Rick und picking Harris/JOkOye etc....) Then in rds 5-7 I pick talented small school guys. Atleast they will add speed to the ST's. (Lord knows the Texans could use that) Or talented but troubled guys. (Lyrela/Dyer/Crowell) If they fall of the wagon you really haven't lost anything except a late rd pick that probably wouldn't have contributed to the team anyway.

That's my philosophy, Obviously Rick has a different philosophy that hasn't worked out too well.

BTW, I'm a fan of trading down this yr. the cut off is the middle of the 4th rd for talent that can help your team this yr. Say trade down for both of the Browns #1's and because the Texans should get a comp 5th rd pick trade a 5th/6th rd pick to move up into the 4th rd.

Your draft would look like this.
Rd.1
Rd.1
Rd.2 pick 33
Rd.3 top of rd
Rd.4 Top of rd. pick
Rd.4 Mid rd pick.
Rd.5 comp pick
Rd.7 Top rd pick

You could add 6 top 100-115 picks in a deep draft and add a RB like Dyer in the 5th and a TE like Lyrela in the 7th.

Do you think a draft like this would help the Texans fill some holes and ad much needed depth/speed?

This isn't the brain surgery Rick/Gary make it out to be. It just takes hard work and accumen for the job.

The more I watch these QB's the more I am leaning to your ideals. I really do like Clowney despite the negatives but if the right deal came along, well! If we could move down say no lower than 12 or 14 I'm the first and pickup another first and second this or next year, there is no way I would pass that up.

aussie_texan
11-27-2013, 05:58 PM
So you are playing whack a mole to The Sultans of Swing . A Rubic's cube has less options than the Texans come draft day . A RT helps the QB who helps everyone on offense . An OLB helps JJ and the Pass rush which helps the secondary . Once again you can't fill a swimming pool with a couple of buckets of water . :dancer:

for me OLB isn't has bad as people are saying. ILB is imo far worse. Mercilus and Reed arnt getting sack numbers but are pressuring the QB resulting in houston being 3rd overall in QB hurries.
I think an upgrade at DT and ILB would help a lot more then another OLB.

Rey
11-27-2013, 06:43 PM
The more I watch the qb's the more I want bridgewater.

I've watched some film of the top 5 guys or so. Still a bunch more to go. To me manziel and Mariota are lesser versions of Russell Wilson. Not that they can't be successful, but I think they are going to need the right systems. And they might be like kaepernick where they have some big impact games and then really struggle a bunch. I'm not big on manziel or mariota.

So far after bridgewater I like mettenberger and Carr. I don't think either are on Teddy's level, but if I had a lower pick I'd take them and feel good about them. Carr has some great physical attributes man. Mettenberger looks like he can be a good qb for a long, long time. Big guy, looks good in the pocket throwing the ball. I'd be ok with either of these guys, but I probably would prefer mettenberger as I think he's a much more advanced passer.

Going to watch more or these guys to see if any would actually entice me to trade down if we had the 1A pick.

powda
11-27-2013, 10:36 PM
The more I watch the qb's the more I want bridgewater.

I've watched some film of the top 5 guys or so. Still a bunch more to go. To me manziel and Mariota are lesser versions of Russell Wilson. Not that they can't be successful, but I think they are going to need the right systems. And they might be like kaepernick where they have some big impact games and then really struggle a bunch. I'm not big on manziel or mariota.

So far after bridgewater I like mettenberger and Carr. I don't think either are on Teddy's level, but if I had a lower pick I'd take them and feel good about them. Carr has some great physical attributes man. Mettenberger looks like he can be a good qb for a long, long time. Big guy, looks good in the pocket throwing the ball. I'd be ok with either of these guys, but I probably would prefer mettenberger as I think he's a much more advanced passer.

Going to watch more or these guys to see if any would actually entice me to trade down if we had the 1A pick.

Is a mettenberger / flaco comparison a fair one? I've seen highlights for a lot of these guys but almost no actual game play. A manziel / wilson comparison looks solid to me...but I'll defer to what you guys have seen.

infantrycak
11-27-2013, 11:40 PM
Is a mettenberger / flaco comparison a fair one?

Big Ben is a pretty common comparison.

Texian
11-28-2013, 07:46 AM
Is a mettenberger / flaco comparison a fair one? I've seen highlights for a lot of these guys but almost no actual game play. A manziel / wilson comparison looks solid to me...but I'll defer to what you guys have seen.

I like the Mettenberger Flacco comparison and it's the one I use because of Cam Cameron. However all 3 are pocket passers with no real threat to run with the ball. And all 3 have a big arm.

Bulls on Parade
11-28-2013, 08:01 AM
After week 12 the Houston Texans have the 2nd pick in the 2014 NFL Draft:

http://www.gbnreport.com/weeklydraftorder.html
Why not pencil us in with the first pick? It's highly unlikely we're going to beat the Patriots, Jaguars, Colts, Broncos and Titans. Four of those five teams could make the playoffs (Titans have the last wild-card spot in the AFC right now). The only winnable game is at Jacksonville but entertain me with the idea that we can somehow win at their place when we couldn't even beat them at Reliant Stadium?

Texian
11-28-2013, 08:31 AM
Why not pencil us in with the first pick? It's highly unlikely we're going to beat the Patriots, Jaguars, Colts, Broncos and Titans. Four of those five teams could make the playoffs (Titans have the last wild-card spot in the AFC right now). The only winnable game is at Jacksonville but entertain me with the idea that we can somehow win at their place when we couldn't even beat them at Reliant Stadium?

If the Texans are the only 2-14 team, YES. If Atlanta is 2-14 the Texans could likely lose out due to opponents W-L %. The good news is Atlanta won't be looking for a QB with Matty Ice having a long term contract.

otisbean
11-28-2013, 08:54 AM
If the Texans are the only 2-14 team, YES. If Atlanta is 2-14 the Texans could likely lose out due to opponents W-L %. The good news is Atlanta won't be looking for a QB with Matty Ice having a long term contract.

At this point I'm really hoping for the first pick. If Atl ends up drafting first they're in a perfect position to trade down, as a team needing a QB would have to jump us to make sure they get the guy they want

Texian
11-28-2013, 09:02 AM
At this point I'm really hoping for the first pick. If Atl ends up drafting first they're in a perfect position to trade down, as a team needing a QB would have to jump us to make sure they get the guy they want

Me too! I'm hoping that Atlanta can win their game at home against the Skins week 15.

MistaRed
11-28-2013, 01:12 PM
Any got links to good film on these guys?

badboy
11-28-2013, 04:28 PM
for me OLB isn't has bad as people are saying. ILB is imo far worse. Mercilus and Reed arnt getting sack numbers but are pressuring the QB resulting in houston being 3rd overall in QB hurries.
I think an upgrade at DT and ILB would help a lot more then another OLB.I agree and Trevardo should help. Maybe some are forgetting the hope he brought when drafted.

Rey
11-28-2013, 04:38 PM
I agree and Trevardo should help. Maybe some are forgetting the hope he brought when drafted.

I don't think people forget. I wasn't enamored with the pick myself.

But I think people are remembering his pre season play. Maybe he was hurt, but he looked terrible.

aussie_texan
11-28-2013, 07:32 PM
At this point I'm really hoping for the first pick. If Atl ends up drafting first they're in a perfect position to trade down, as a team needing a QB would have to jump us to make sure they get the guy they want

unless we put up our pick for trade.

as another poster said, the falcons won't be looking for a QB, so a team doesn't HAVE to trade with ATL to jump us if we want to trade down as well.

ATL would be stupid to trade down because they need big time help with pass rushers and clowney and Barr are staring them straight in the face with the number 1 pick.

bhsman
11-29-2013, 12:14 AM
Walter Football (http://walterfootball.com/draft2014.php) has us taking Clowney in the first, with Boyd and Skov in the second and third rounds, respectively.

otisbean
11-29-2013, 07:16 AM
unless we put up our pick for trade.

as another poster said, the falcons won't be looking for a QB, so a team doesn't HAVE to trade with ATL to jump us if we want to trade down as well.

ATL would be stupid to trade down because they need big time help with pass rushers and clowney and Barr are staring them straight in the face with the number 1 pick.

Atl could trade down because they don't need a QB. At this point it looks like we do, so if a team like Jacksonville was drafting 3rd (with Atl 1st and we're second) they could easily throw a couple picks to Atl to move up to land the top QB prospect and Atl can still land either Barr or Clowney.

I can't imagine us trading down with our QB situation up in the air, but I could be wrong

Lucky
11-29-2013, 09:43 AM
Walter Football (http://walterfootball.com/draft2014.php) has us taking Clowney in the first, with Boyd and Skov in the second and third rounds, respectively.

The NFL still thinks Clowney is the top prospect. Unless the Texans keep Rick Smith or rehire Casserly, I think Clowney would be the Texans pick at #1 overall. Just thinking about Watt and Clowney on the same defensive front is sick. I know Andrew Luck would be sick.

Honoring Earl 34
11-29-2013, 10:56 AM
The NFL still thinks Clowney is the top prospect. Unless the Texans keep Rick Smith or rehire Casserly, I think Clowney would be the Texans pick at #1 overall. Just thinking about Watt and Clowney on the same defensive front is sick. I know Andrew Luck would be sick.

Tell Clowney that his job is to keep up with that JJ fellar all off season .

Texian
11-29-2013, 11:06 AM
Atl could trade down because they don't need a QB. At this point it looks like we do, so if a team like Jacksonville was drafting 3rd (with Atl 1st and we're second) they could easily throw a couple picks to Atl to move up to land the top QB prospect and Atl can still land either Barr or Clowney.

I can't imagine us trading down with our QB situation up in the air, but I could be wrong

Agree, Atlanta has BIG holes in both lines and could be enamored with extra draft picks.

bhsman
11-29-2013, 01:34 PM
The NFL still thinks Clowney is the top prospect. Unless the Texans keep Rick Smith or rehire Casserly, I think Clowney would be the Texans pick at #1 overall. Just thinking about Watt and Clowney on the same defensive front is sick. I know Andrew Luck would be sick.

Well Casserly drafted Mario Williams and I trust Rick Smith enough to make that decision, so no worries there. :kitten:

Texian
11-29-2013, 03:38 PM
Well Casserly drafted Mario Williams and I trust Rick Smith enough to make that decision, so no worries there. :kitten:

Rick Smith followed that up with Amobe Okoye. Contrary to popular belief Smith is a not a GM with final say. Smith fills the same position Scott Pioli did as GM of the Patriots. Belichick trusted Pioli to do what Belichick needed to be done. The same way Kubiak trusts Smith to do what Kubiak needs Smith to do. So Okoye was really a Kubiak decision regardless of what people think they believe.

bhsman
11-29-2013, 04:17 PM
Everyone loves to complain about Smith over. Pokey and then forget to mention our first round picks ever since have either been money or played well after developing.

steelbtexan
11-29-2013, 05:08 PM
Everyone loves to complain about Smith over. Pokey and then forget to mention our first round picks ever since have either been money or played well after developing.

Tell mee more about Rick's ability to evaluate DB's?

Texian
11-29-2013, 05:09 PM
Everyone loves to complain about Smith over. Pokey and then forget to mention our first round picks ever since have either been money or played well after developing.

The point is Rick Smith doesn't get the blame for draft picks and he doesn't get credit for draft picks. Kubiak allows his coaches to select the players. The problem here is Kubiak doesn't select the best coaches, Kubiak selects his best friends. All player personnel decisions get Kubiak's final blessing. That goes with final say on the 53 man roster, part of Kubiak's contract.

bhsman
11-29-2013, 05:24 PM
He drafted Jackson who has developed well under the Wade, whom Smith hired. He also brought in Joseph and Manning as FAs. Point me to a franchise that finds pro-bowl DBS every year.

The point is Rick Smith doesn't get the blame for draft picks and he doesn't get credit for draft picks. Kubiak allows his coaches to select the players. The problem here is Kubiak doesn't select the best coaches, Kubiak selects his best friends. All player personnel decisions get Kubiak's final blessing. That goes with final say on the 53 man roster, part of Kubiak's contract.

No no, I'm saying he should get both, only that Okoye* is what everyone points to as a mistake when it was his first pick as GM, not his latest.

steelbtexan
11-29-2013, 05:38 PM
He drafted Jackson who has developed well under the Wade, whom Smith hired. He also brought in Joseph and Manning as FAs. Point me to a franchise that finds pro-bowl DBS every year.



No no, I'm saying he should get both, only that Okoye* is what everyone points to as a mistake when it was his first pick as GM, not his latest.

BoB picked McNair. Do you really believe that Smith new Bum well enough to get Wade to interview before the 2010 season ended.

Kareem is the best DB Rick has drafted. That speaks volumes, Jackson is only above avg at best even with his improvement under Wade/Joseph. Certainly not an all pro. This speaks volumes about Rick's ability to evaluate talent at the position he played in college and you want him to pick the franchise QB?

Crazy talk, hopefully BoB keeps Rick around like he did Casserly lets Rick set up interviews for the future HC. Then BoB locks Rick in a closet during these interviews and lets Rick resign and save face like he did with Casserly.

Texian
11-29-2013, 06:58 PM
He drafted Jackson who has developed well under the Wade, whom Smith hired. He also brought in Joseph and Manning as FAs. Point me to a franchise that finds pro-bowl DBS every year.



No no, I'm saying he should get both, only that Okoye* is what everyone points to as a mistake when it was his first pick as GM, not his latest.

Jackson has developed in to an OK CB against passes under 20 yds, still a liability against the deep pass. Contrary to your belief, McNair hired Wade, NOT Rick, NOT Gary. Contrary to your belief it was Wade who selected Joseph and Manning and that came as part of his agreement with Bob McNair to become DC. In addition McNair also promised Wade the 1st RD picks in 2011 and 2012 as part of the deal to become DC. Watt and Mercilus are Wade decisions NOT Rick Smith. And Okoye was a Richard Smith pick NOT to be confused with Rick Smith.

bhsman
11-29-2013, 09:41 PM
So Smith is only responsible for the bad things and had no imput on the good things, got it.

steelbtexan
11-29-2013, 09:54 PM
So Smith is only responsible for the bad things and had no imput on the good things, got it.

What good things?

Speaking of this can you tell me what Rick's job is and how would you rate the he's done doing those specific tasks.

If you dont know what good things he's done then he's got to be held to the same standards as GM's like Ozzie Newsome/Ted Thompson/Mickey Loomis/Jerry Reese's of the world. Where does Rick stack up to them after 7 yrs.

leebigeztx
11-30-2013, 02:01 AM
What good things?

Speaking of this can you tell me what Rick's job is and how would you rate the he's done doing those specific tasks.

If you dont know what good things he's done then he's got to be held to the same standards as GM's like Ozzie Newsome/Ted Thompson/Mickey Loomis/Jerry Reese's of the world. Where does Rick stack up to them after 7 yrs.

I think smith stacks up well. His biggest knock which is a big one is he hasn't drafted a franchise caliber qb,that's pretty much it. All those guys you named either drafted,had one already or in the case of loomis signed one. If you take position for position the last 7 yrs,rick has done fine. We wouldn't have issues with the roster if texans had a top flight qb. Its not hard at all to look at those gms and their common good points.

I think the world of ozzie,but look at his track record in those 7 yrs.Prior to flacco,they weren't a playoff team. Thompson had favre already,but I give him credit for drafting bpa in rodgers. What about the flamouts they've had with brohm,hawk is avg,perry,raji,and the tennessee kid who never developed? What about that o-line that has 1st and 2nd rd misses? Reese, see above. Had eli already also. Not to mention most of that sb roster was already in place before he took over for acorsi. Look at the oline,lbs,and secondary not to mention,they're about to miss playoffs again.

Bottomline, smith is performing on par with the so called top gms. His track record has feet. As we've discussed in other threads,his next hire and qb evaluation will be the most important of his career.

steelbtexan
11-30-2013, 02:28 AM
I think smith stacks up well. His biggest knock which is a big one is he hasn't drafted a franchise caliber qb,that's pretty much it. All those guys you named either drafted,had one already or in the case of loomis signed one. If you take position for position the last 7 yrs,rick has done fine. We wouldn't have issues with the roster if texans had a top flight qb. Its not hard at all to look at those gms and their common good points.

I think the world of ozzie,but look at his track record in those 7 yrs.Prior to flacco,they weren't a playoff team. Thompson had favre already,but I give him credit for drafting bpa in rodgers. What about the flamouts they've had with brohm,hawk is avg,perry,raji,and the tennessee kid who never developed? What about that o-line that has 1st and 2nd rd misses? Reese, see above. Had eli already also. Not to mention most of that sb roster was already in place before he took over for acorsi. Look at the oline,lbs,and secondary not to mention,they're about to miss playoffs again.

Bottomline, smith is performing on par with the so called top gms. His track record has feet. As we've discussed in other threads,his next hire and qb evaluation will be the most important of his career.

Hope you're wrong, this team is 2-9 and BoB told the fans this was a SB or bust yr. Everybody should be fired and a fresh start is needed. That means Rick should go too.

Really I would like a GM who believes in building the trenches 1st and is good at it. That aint Rick. What do you think the chances are of BoB givin Rick the Casserly treatment? I would say 0% because BoB owes Rick 2 more yrs.

leebigeztx
11-30-2013, 02:50 AM
Hope you're wrong, this team is 2-9 and BoB told the fans this was a SB or bust yr. Everybody should be fired and a fresh start is needed. That means Rick should go too.

Really I would like a GM who believes in building the trenches 1st and is good at it. That aint Rick. What do you think the chances are of BoB givin Rick the Casserly treatment? I would say 0% because BoB owes Rick 2 more yrs.

I don't understand ur build thru the trenches logic. You listed your top gms ,now tell me which has built a great trench team? Not only that's,its not like the texans haven't been very good in the trenches lately. Could the be better? Sure,but the problem is the guy taking snaps.

Corrosion
12-01-2013, 07:25 PM
Really I would like a GM who believes in building the trenches 1st and is good at it.

The more I watch the NFL , the more I realize that .... the only position that matters is QB. Everyone else can be a scrub but if you have that star QB you are going to get favorable calls that can change the course of games while if you don't have that guy .... you get none of those.


Then you consider how the rules are so favorable towards the offense .... I have to wonder if it really matters how good you are on the defensive line against those star QB's .....


The way this game has evolved , you might as well build a team to score 60 and throw 11 fans on the field to play defense.

bhsman
12-01-2013, 09:05 PM
Rounds 1 and 2:

http://i.imgur.com/zPJr9P6.gif

Rey
12-01-2013, 09:09 PM
Rounds 1 and 2:

http://i.imgur.com/zPJr9P6.gif

I'd be good with that.

dtran04
12-01-2013, 09:37 PM
This team sorely needs to hit on their picks a la 2006 draft. Need about 4 players that will make significant contributions.

leebigeztx
12-01-2013, 11:34 PM
The more I watch the NFL , the more I realize that .... the only position that matters is QB. Everyone else can be a scrub but if you have that star QB you are going to get favorable calls that can change the course of games while if you don't have that guy .... you get none of those.


Then you consider how the rules are so favorable towards the offense .... I have to wonder if it really matters how good you are on the defensive line against those star QB's .....


The way this game has evolved , you might as well build a team to score 60 and throw 11 fans on the field to play defense.

Its been like that for a few yrs. No team has won a superbowl without a talent at qb since the ravens and bucs. Both of which were more than 10 yrs ago. The only way to cover holes is with the qb. Defense can get you to the playoffs,pass game win rings.

gtexan02
12-01-2013, 11:41 PM
The more I watch the NFL , the more I realize that .... the only position that matters is QB. Everyone else can be a scrub but if you have that star QB you are going to get favorable calls that can change the course of games while if you don't have that guy .... you get none of those.


Then you consider how the rules are so favorable towards the offense .... I have to wonder if it really matters how good you are on the defensive line against those star QB's .....


The way this game has evolved , you might as well build a team to score 60 and throw 11 fans on the field to play defense.

Falcons this year are a bizarre team. Matt Ryan isn't having a bad year but they're stuck in the gutter with us

TXAg14
12-01-2013, 11:54 PM
Falcons this year are a bizarre team. Matt Ryan isn't having a bad year but they're stuck in the gutter with us

A lot of the same problems that plagued Georgia (NCAA) are affecting the Falcons. Both Roddy White and Julio Jones were out with injuries. Steven Jackson hasn't been as effective as they wanted, also been out a little with injuries. Matt Ryan hasn't been bad, but when he doesn't have his two best WRs and can't effectively run the ball, it's hard for the Falcons to do much of anything. They can just zero in on covering Tony Gonzalez.

Scooter
12-02-2013, 12:59 AM
i'm not buying the argument that only the QB matters. eli gets all the credit, but it was the giant's defensive line that won the championships by not allowing more than 20 points in either of their runs. the steelers have been to the superbowl 3 times recently, only once in those entire playoffs allowing more than 24. that one being their only loss, in the superbowl. the ravens won a couple shootouts, but managed to beat both indy and the patriots by only allowing a combined 22 points. manning's colts' two trips are the same, only twice allowing more than 17, a win and a loss.

defense and running the ball to finish games are very much alive and well, especially in the playoffs. if it was quarterbacks only, rodgers, peyton and brees would have more rings than big ben and eli.

leebigeztx
12-02-2013, 02:58 AM
i'm not buying the argument that only the QB matters. eli gets all the credit, but it was the giant's defensive line that won the championships by not allowing more than 20 points in either of their runs. the steelers have been to the superbowl 3 times recently, only once in those entire playoffs allowing more than 24. that one being their only loss, in the superbowl. the ravens won a couple shootouts, but managed to beat both indy and the patriots by only allowing a combined 22 points. manning's colts' two trips are the same, only twice allowing more than 17, a win and a loss.

defense and running the ball to finish games are very much alive and well, especially in the playoffs. if it was quarterbacks only, rodgers, peyton and brees would have more rings than big ben and eli.


U don't have to buy it,but look at how those guys played in the playoffs. No one said its about the qb and dummies, but u better have a guy with elite talent/playmaker when you enter the postseason. He's gonna have to make game altering plays in the post season. Flacco was on fire in the playoffs last yr. Eli was also playing elite the yr before in the playoffs. We've seen the plays in the postseaon made by rodgers,brady,brees,and big ben.What we haven't seen is a qb handing the ball off 30 times a game. I'm not saying the run game and defense aren't important,I'm saying the top flight guys can win without those elements. In the postseason,you will play teams who can take things away.

infantrycak
12-02-2013, 03:34 AM
What we haven't seen is a qb handing the ball off 30 times a game. I'm not saying the run game and defense aren't important,I'm saying the top flight guys can win without those elements.

Since you included Big Ben then yeah we have. The Steelers won the SB in 2006 (2005 season) in spite of Big Ben. They ran 28 times for 3 TDs, the D held Seattle to 10 pts and Big Ben had 9 comp., 0 TDs and 2 INTs.

I think you are underestimating the running generally. The Steelers also ran 28 times in their other win. The Giants likewise ran 28 times in their most recent win. The Ravens ran 35 times last year.

All that being said I want to see the Texans take a QB high BUT I would not want them to take Bridgewater just because he is the consensus pick. I want them to maneuver to get the guy they like best.

Scooter
12-02-2013, 03:46 AM
but u better have a guy with elite talent/playmaker when you enter the postseason. He's gonna have to make game altering plays in the post season. Flacco was on fire in the playoffs last yr. Eli was also playing elite the yr before in the playoffs.

you're putting ben, flacco, and eli into elite categories? look at ben and eli's numbers during their superbowl runs. eli is very pedestrian at about 270yds and a TD or 2 on average, but didnt turn the ball over and relied on his defense ... a game manager at it's finest. it would be pretty easy to argue that the steelers won in spite of ben, in XL his line read 9/21 for 123yds and 2int's. flacco did catch fire, but still needed a lot of help from ray rice and a defense that crushed brady and andrew luck.

edit: just to tack on, in the patriot's 5 superbowl appearances they've only allowed more than 21 twice during the playoffs, and 21 twice (including a loss). their playoff runs have been heavily defensive as well. shootouts like last year's ravens/broncos game are rare. it's who turns on their defense at the right time that has had the most playoff success in recent history.

Scooter
12-02-2013, 04:32 AM
to the question at hand, i'm still on board with matthews. if quess can replace smith (shouldnt be hard), right tackle is the only hole on offense unless keenum faceplants in these remaining games. shore up that position with a near "cant miss" for the next 10 years. who cares if it's a lower tier position, if you can add a lifer as a bookend you do it IMO.

my ideal scenario would be finishing first with teams thinking we're after the top quarterback (which we may be). trade down a spot or two for an extra pick and take matthews. then use the next two on defense - linebacker positions preferably. hit on matthews, and get at least starting quality players with the next two would alter this team drastically.

bah007
12-02-2013, 08:25 AM
This team sorely needs to hit on their picks a la 2006 draft. Need about 4 players that will make significant contributions.

Well I guess we're in the right spot then :choke:

Honoring Earl 34
12-02-2013, 09:06 AM
to the question at hand, i'm still on board with matthews. if quess can replace smith (shouldnt be hard), right tackle is the only hole on offense unless keenum faceplants in these remaining games. shore up that position with a near "cant miss" for the next 10 years. who cares if it's a lower tier position, if you can add a lifer as a bookend you do it IMO.

my ideal scenario would be finishing first with teams thinking we're after the top quarterback (which we may be). trade down a spot or two for an extra pick and take matthews. then use the next two on defense - linebacker positions preferably. hit on matthews, and get at least starting quality players with the next two would alter this team drastically.

The new coach may run a new scheme , besides why does everyone think Q is the answer to all questions .

bah007
12-02-2013, 09:14 AM
If you want to see why QB is so important then just look at Indy's record the last couple of years when the only position they significantly upgraded is QB.

To win in this league you have to be strong at QB, OL, DL, and DB. Not necessarily in that order, but some combination of talent in those areas is required.

You don't have to have an elite QB, but your QB needs to be able to win you games. Your OL needs to be able to protect your QB, and open up holes for your running game when necessary. Your DL must be able to pressure the QB. Your DBs must be able to disrupt the passing game or create turnovers.

mussop
12-02-2013, 12:08 PM
to the question at hand, i'm still on board with matthews. if quess can replace smith (shouldnt be hard), right tackle is the only hole on offense unless keenum faceplants in these remaining games. shore up that position with a near "cant miss" for the next 10 years. who cares if it's a lower tier position, if you can add a lifer as a bookend you do it IMO.

my ideal scenario would be finishing first with teams thinking we're after the top quarterback (which we may be). trade down a spot or two for an extra pick and take matthews. then use the next two on defense - linebacker positions preferably. hit on matthews, and get at least starting quality players with the next two would alter this team drastically.

If Mathews is the pick we better move down. His name has him rated higher than he should be. Right now his play hasn't been dominate like a top ten OT should be.

Texian
12-02-2013, 12:31 PM
If Mathews is the pick we better move down. His name has him rated higher than he should be. Right now his play hasn't been dominate like a top ten OT should be.

Agree, there a couple of more athletic OTs than Matthews based on what I have watched, just this weekend alone. Kouandjio and Irving are 2 names that come to mind.

Wolf6151
12-03-2013, 02:37 AM
Now that we are in the drivers seat regarding the 2014 draft, my whole approach to it has changed. Teddy Bridgewater in the 1st because without a high quality QB we ain't going anywhere, best OT available in the 2nd and I'm not opposed to trading up if someone good falls into the late 1st. We've got to protect our new QB investment and improve our overall O-line. From the 3rd round on, take the best available defensive player regardless of position. There will be good players that fall in every round, it happens every year, take the best available defensive players. We have needs at every defensive spot there is, so filling them with BPA should be easy. According to CBS new prospect rankings posted 12-02-13, many previously highly ranked players have fallen at CB, OG, ILB, DT, etc...

Rey
12-03-2013, 07:47 AM
I get that people are she'll shocked about the oline, but if we go RT in the 1st or 2nd and we don't address our pass rush with a really good player in free agency or early in the draft that will be a mistake.

Texans absolutely have to add some top end talent to that defense.

I know people don't want to hear this, but as bad as newton has been at times, RT can be addressed a little later in the draft or with a solid yet unspectacular free agent signing.

steelbtexan
12-03-2013, 07:50 AM
Now that we are in the drivers seat regarding the 2014 draft, my whole approach to it has changed. Teddy Bridgewater in the 1st because without a high quality QB we ain't going anywhere, best OT available in the 2nd and I'm not opposed to trading up if someone good falls into the late 1st. We've got to protect our new QB investment and improve our overall O-line. From the 3rd round on, take the best available defensive player regardless of position. There will be good players that fall in every round, it happens every year, take the best available defensive players. We have needs at every defensive spot there is, so filling them with BPA should be easy. According to CBS new prospect rankings posted 12-02-13, many previously highly ranked players have fallen at CB, OG, ILB, DT, etc...

I could get on board with this if I believed Bridgewater was worth 1-1. Give me Clowney at 1-1, then Mettenberger (Impressed me with his toughness/elite arm strength/pro ready offense) or Bortles (who has the same type arm strength/mobility skills as Bridgewater,) late in the 1st or at 2-1.

Mr teX
12-03-2013, 08:08 AM
I could get on board with this if I believed Bridgewater was worth 1-1. Give me Clowney at 1-1, then Mettenberger (Impressed me with his toughness/elite arm strength/pro ready offense) or Bortles (who has the same type arm strength/mobility skills as Bridgewater,) late in the 1st or at 2-1.

creepy how you and i have been on the same page as of late. I believe Bridgewater is the best qb prospect, but i can see why folks might be hesistant to take him 1st overall....Especially with a Jevon Kearse like prospect in Clowney sitting right there. I like Mettenberger alot more than most on here as well so the bolded is the best case scenario in my mind...you could maybe interchange mettenberger out with Bortles or Murray & i'd be ok with that as well.

bah007
12-03-2013, 08:14 AM
Given Clowney's talent, I can see the argument to pass on Bridgewater at #1. Teddy is the closest QB in this draft to a sure thing, but he's not a guarantee.

I'm not super high on Mettenberger for right now, but I think he has a ton of upside. I would not want him starting next year though. He would get killed. Take him in the second or late in the first and coach him up. That would mean signing a vet to compete with Keenum and letting both Schaub and Yates go while Mettenberger carries a clipboard.

Rey
12-03-2013, 08:27 AM
Given Clowney's talent, I can see the argument to pass on Bridgewater at #1. Teddy is the closest QB in this draft to a sure thing, but he's not a guarantee.

I'm not super high on Mettenberger for right now, but I think he has a ton of upside. I would not want him starting next year though. He would get killed. Take him in the second or late in the first and coach him up. That would mean signing a vet to compete with Keenum and letting both Schaub and Yates go while Mettenberger carries a clipboard.

Cutler.

steelbtexan
12-03-2013, 08:45 AM
Cutler.


They dont have the cap room to sign Cutler if the Bears were to let him go. (Doubtful) They could sign Cutler if they let JoJo and Schaub go. This would remove the need to draft a QB high and put the Texans in the drivers seat for this draft.

Mr teX
12-03-2013, 08:52 AM
They dont have the cap room to sign Cutler if the Bears were to let him go. (Doubtful) They could sign Cutler if they let JoJo and Schaub go. This would remove the need to draft a QB high and put the Texans in the drivers seat for this draft.

I think maybe he's saying Mettenberger = Cutler...

Honoring Earl 34
12-03-2013, 11:51 AM
I get that people are she'll shocked about the oline, but if we go RT in the 1st or 2nd and we don't address our pass rush with a really good player in free agency or early in the draft that will be a mistake.

Texans absolutely have to add some top end talent to that defense.

I know people don't want to hear this, but as bad as newton has been at times, RT can be addressed a little later in the draft or with a solid yet unspectacular free agent signing.

To me the OL needs a LG and A RT . The RT may be on the IR and depending on the new coach , little guards may have run their course .

The defense is an oddity because you have the defensive player of the year getting all the attention and nobody else can't get to the QB . A 3-4 without a beast OLB is puny .

QB is always the elephant in the room because if you possess a franchise one , your worries are much less . Nobody can cover for average/inexperienced players like a franshise QB or a monster pass rusher . The problem is , both of these positions are highly sought after and you hardly ever see them as FAs or lower round draft picks . I think an elite pass rusher comes with an athletic skill set that can be measured unlike a QB because numbers don't always translate into a great QB .


Therefore my picks

1. Clowney
2 QB
3.Yankey

aussie_texan
12-04-2013, 01:21 AM
I think maybe he's saying Mettenberger = Cutler...

mettenberger tore is ACL

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/12/03/report-lsu-qb-zach-mettenberger-tears-acl/

WolverineFan
12-04-2013, 11:25 AM
mettenberger tore is ACL

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/12/03/report-lsu-qb-zach-mettenberger-tears-acl/

That sucks because him and Murray really could have used the Senior Bowl to boost their stock.

Honoring Earl 34
12-04-2013, 02:13 PM
That sucks because him and Murray really could have used the Senior Bowl to boost their stock.

This is better than a cyber monday sale if you like one of the two .

dtran04
12-05-2013, 10:59 AM
So would you take a very good but not elite QB over an elite DE?

As an exercise, would you take someone like a Matt Ryan/Jay Cutler over a JJ Watt/Julius Peppers?

EVOLVIST
12-05-2013, 11:17 AM
creepy how you and i have been on the same page as of late. I believe Bridgewater is the best qb prospect, but i can see why folks might be hesistant to take him 1st overall....Especially with a Jevon Kearse like prospect in Clowney sitting right there. I like Mettenberger alot more than most on here as well so the bolded is the best case scenario in my mind...you could maybe interchange mettenberger out with Bortles or Murray & i'd be ok with that as well.

I think I'm right with you here. Take Clowney 1-1 - then if you can snag Mettenberger or Bortles in the 2nd, you're golden. I would take Bortles over Mettenberger, if I had my druthers (if he declares). At the worst (or maybe best) you're getting McCarron, Murray or Boyd in the 2nd.

I just see it as a win-win by not taking Bridgewater 1-1 and shooting for another possible bust in the 2nd. :goodluck:

bhsman
12-05-2013, 11:35 AM
Honestly I have no problem grabbing a guy like Mettenberger or Murray and letting them get healthy for a year (like a medical redshirt in college); I would like to see the team compete for a championship soon, but realistically it will probably take a season or two, even with how talented the team is already - in spite of injuries fogging that up.

Grabbing Clowney and a future QB, letting the (potential) new head coach ease in, etc., and perhaps even getting a top pick in 2015 wouldn't be the worst thing. Especially if Clowney won't be at 100% due to foot surgery.

infantrycak
12-05-2013, 12:04 PM
So would you take a very good but not elite QB over an elite DE?

As an exercise, would you take someone like a Matt Ryan/Jay Cutler over a JJ Watt/Julius Peppers?

How about this one - how many DLmen are there in the league right now who teams would significantly downgrade (defined as there wouldn't be any real debate that it is a downgrade) their QB to get (full careers on both players)?

That involves the full equation - a team willing to move from a QB there is no argument is better than Jay Cutler to Jay Cutler to get JJ Watt.

Texian
12-05-2013, 12:36 PM
So would you take a very good but not elite QB over an elite DE?

As an exercise, would you take someone like a Matt Ryan/Jay Cutler over a JJ Watt/Julius Peppers?

How about this one - how many DLmen are there in the league right now who teams would significantly downgrade (defined as there wouldn't be any real debate that it is a downgrade) their QB to get (full careers on both players)?

That involves the full equation - a team willing to move from a QB there is no argument is better than Jay Cutler to Jay Cutler to get JJ Watt.

If there were a players value chart, there is not but assume there is one. What would Peyton Manning's or Tom Brady's value be? And what would JJ Watt's value be? How far down the QB value chart would you've to go to equal JJ Watt's value?

infantrycak
12-05-2013, 12:53 PM
If there were a players value chart, there is not but assume there is one. What would Peyton Manning's or Tom Brady's value be? And what would JJ Watt's value be? How far down the QB value chart would you've to go to equal JJ Watt's value?

Keep it simple - would you go from any of the current SB winning QBs down to Jay Cutler for JJ Watt?

Flacco, Eli, Big Ben, Manning, Brady, Rogers, Brees.

Really I think the more important version would be any team do it but either way.

Honoring Earl 34
12-13-2013, 08:29 AM
How about this one - how many DLmen are there in the league right now who teams would significantly downgrade (defined as there wouldn't be any real debate that it is a downgrade) their QB to get (full careers on both players)?

That involves the full equation - a team willing to move from a QB there is no argument is better than Jay Cutler to Jay Cutler to get JJ Watt.

That's robbing Peter to pay Paul if you think a stud defensive player is a requirement to win a SB .. IMO .

NastyNate
12-14-2013, 04:40 PM
creepy how you and i have been on the same page as of late. I believe Bridgewater is the best qb prospect, but i can see why folks might be hesistant to take him 1st overall....Especially with a Jevon Kearse like prospect in Clowney sitting right there. I like Mettenberger alot more than most on here as well so the bolded is the best case scenario in my mind...you could maybe interchange mettenberger out with Bortles or Murray & i'd be ok with that as well.

More like an Albert Haynesworth like prospect. One hit on a Michigan running back has warped people's opinions of him. Guy takes plays off and makes poor decisions. Leave him alone.

Corrosion
12-14-2013, 05:39 PM
More like an Albert Haynesworth like prospect. One hit on a Michigan running back has warped people's opinions of him. Guy takes plays off and makes poor decisions. Leave him alone.

That's probably a good comparison ....

JB
12-14-2013, 05:59 PM
More like an Albert Haynesworth like prospect. One hit on a Michigan running back has warped people's opinions of him. Guy takes plays off and makes poor decisions. Leave him alone.

Yeah if we go pass rusher, give me Barr. high motor guy has done us well

Marshall
12-14-2013, 07:17 PM
I wish to repeat what I said in another thread. Trade down, pick up extra high draft choices and still get our guy. My target it Matthews or Barr, but I think we can still get them AND get extra picks because of the drooling over Clowney and Bridgewater coupled with numerous teams competing for QBs.

Imagine trading down to 2 plus our 2nd rounder while picking up Rams 12th pick so they can get Clowney. Then trading down with Minnesota and picking up their second and fourth so they can bet Bridgewater. Atlanta picks up either Barr or Matthews and we still get the other one and now we get a 12th and only move down 3 in the second to use on perhaps Manziel or a premium NT like Nix.

Comments welcome.

JB
12-14-2013, 07:20 PM
I wish to repeat what I said in another thread. Trade down, pick up extra high draft choices and still get our guy. My target it Matthews or Barr, but I think we can still get them AND get extra picks because of the drooling over Clowney and Bridgewater coupled with numerous teams competing for QBs.

Imagine trading down to 2 plus our 2nd rounder while picking up Rams 12th pick so they can get Clowney. Then trading down with Minnesota and picking up their second and fourth so they can bet Bridgewater. Atlanta picks up either Barr or Matthews and we still get the other one and now we get a 12th and only move down 3 in the second to use on perhaps Manziel or a premium NT like Nix.

Comments welcome.

Trading down is something most would like to do but few find that oh so elusive trading partner that's willing

beerlover
12-14-2013, 09:14 PM
Trading down is something most would like to do but few find that oh so elusive trading partner that's willing

^^^
THIS

unless you have Andrew Luck but wait, the Colts do, right after Peyton, must be rough? so Texans, we must be vigil, remain patient (not like it already doesn't seem like an eternity) get our coach then put it all together.

we must pick with quiet abandon. personally I would like it if Wade Phillips was given a one year contract to be head coach & complete his defense (worst case). I think Barr would be his choice, OLB with elite pass rush skills. I would love to know what transpired in war room last draft but we'll never know. Ogletree was there for taking, then we would not be having this discussion, but at least now we know there must be a QB change :pop:

badboy
12-15-2013, 06:01 PM
I wish to repeat what I said in another thread. Trade down, pick up extra high draft choices and still get our guy. My target it Matthews or Barr, but I think we can still get them AND get extra picks because of the drooling over Clowney and Bridgewater coupled with numerous teams competing for QBs.

Imagine trading down to 2 plus our 2nd rounder while picking up Rams 12th pick so they can get Clowney. Then trading down with Minnesota and picking up their second and fourth so they can bet Bridgewater. Atlanta picks up either Barr or Matthews and we still get the other one and now we get a 12th and only move down 3 in the second to use on perhaps Manziel or a premium NT like Nix.

Comments welcome.I am definitely looking for trades but could you clarify yours a bit? First we trade down one spot to #2 giving our second or ?

so Rams can go Clowney? 3 main sources I use for reference have Rams taking Barr, Matthews and (Walters) Matthews with this note "but the Rams will almost certainly be trading out of the top three if they obtain a pick in that spot. They're likely to roll with Sam Bradford with another season, and they have no need for a defensive end, so they may once again slide down, swapping picks with a team wanting to move up for a franchise signal-caller or Jadeveon Clowney. In this case, it's the latter. "

SAMURAITEXAN
12-15-2013, 08:07 PM
With all the injuries we had on D side, I really like for the Texans to bulk more players especially front 7. I hope we can find a suitable trading partner to obtain more picks. With an extra pick(multiple picks would be better but, it all depends on a trading partner), we can use that pick for RT prospect or BPA as well. I am not really sold on QB prospects in 2014 draft to use our top pick (perhaps in later round yes but, not our top pick).

dalemurphy
12-15-2013, 08:31 PM
With all the injuries we had on D side, I really like for the Texans to bulk more players especially front 7. I hope we can find a suitable trading partner to obtain more picks. With an extra pick(multiple picks would be better but, it all depends on a trading partner), we can use that pick for RT prospect or BPA as well. I am not really sold on QB prospects in 2014 draft to use our top pick (perhaps in later round yes but, not our top pick).

I'm usually a sucker for a trade down... This year, assuming there is not the clear stud QB (I think Bridgewater may be it), I absolutely love the trade down.

In 2006, nobody wanted the 1st pick because of the amount of money attached to it. Now, it is a bargain and should hold good value for a number of teams, even if there isn't a consensus number one pick. For the Texans, the opportunity to trade down and still grab a high quality RT (or G-the dude from Baylor, for instance), also grab a very good CB, and still get a solid QB prospect or two (Murray, Metternburger, Boyd, etc...) is awfully appealing.

We are likely already set up for two or three compensatory picks between rounds 4 and 6... For those of you wanting this team blown up, a trade down would likely result in the Texans have 10 or more picks in the first 5 rounds or so... That would go a long ways to getting the heavy personnel turnover you'll are wanting.

steelbtexan
12-15-2013, 08:47 PM
I'm usually a sucker for a trade down... This year, assuming there is not the clear stud QB (I think Bridgewater may be it), I absolutely love the trade down.

In 2006, nobody wanted the 1st pick because of the amount of money attached to it. Now, it is a bargain and should hold good value for a number of teams, even if there isn't a consensus number one pick. For the Texans, the opportunity to trade down and still grab a high quality RT (or G-the dude from Baylor, for instance), also grab a very good CB, and still get a solid QB prospect or two (Murray, Metternburger, Boyd, etc...) is awfully appealing.

We are likely already set up for two or three compensatory picks between rounds 4 and 6... For those of you wanting this team blown up, a trade down would likely result in the Texans have 10 or more picks in the first 5 rounds or so... That would go a long ways to getting the heavy personnel turnover you'll are wanting.

True, and this is what I hope happens.

But do you trust Rick to make the correct picks to help rebuild the talent level the team is currently missing?

I dont, but being a Texans fan I have to hope that I'm wrong.

beerlover
12-15-2013, 08:53 PM
True, and this is what I hope happens.

But do you trust Rick to make the correct picks to help rebuild the talent level the team is currently missing?

I dont, but being a Texans fan I have to hope that I'm wrong.

Rick has proven a good mirror to his coaches needs/request just hope the next coaches R more spot on & remedy for what ales :toast2:

SAMURAITEXAN
12-15-2013, 08:56 PM
I am glad some of us seeing trade down may be the way to go.

dale, I completely agree with you. If we can add some more talents on this team, we will have a chance to be solid for years to come.

steelb, I think it will depends on who we hire as our new HC and his scheme. It seems like Rick may get more say in drafting players but if HC with demanding personality, he can influence Rick to pick what new HC likes I think.

PapaL
12-15-2013, 09:06 PM
Take BPA. Right now, that's either Bridgewater or Clowney. I'm fine w either. Ideally I'd like Clowney at 1/1 and whichever QB falls at 2/1.

We all have our guy and that's fine if you disagree. We all see what we want to see.

BigBull
12-15-2013, 09:14 PM
Take BPA. Right now, that's either Bridgewater or Clowney. I'm fine w either. Ideally I'd like Clowney at 1/1 and whichever QB falls at 2/1.

We all have our guy and that's fine if you disagree. We all see what we want to see.


Normally I would agree with you, but I think Brigdewater is the only qb in this draft with a chance to be a franchise type qb.


Sent from the future...

dalemurphy
12-15-2013, 09:15 PM
True, and this is what I hope happens.

But do you trust Rick to make the correct picks to help rebuild the talent level the team is currently missing?

I dont, but being a Texans fan I have to hope that I'm wrong.

Hard to put much faith in anyone within the organization after this unmitigated disaster. Still, it is difficult to argue with Rick's 1st round record. Other than the Amobi Okoye mistake in year one, He has been great in the first round. I would say that nobody has been better in the NFL over that span of time with their first selection (DBrown, Cushing, KJ, Watt, Hopkins)...

I also have liked his trade downs throughout the years. I think a lot of his success/failure will depend on how well he can work with and understand the new head coach's system and what he wants and needs. Regardless of how an organization designs the power structure, I think that relationship is always an undervalued aspect of the GM's ability to succeed on draft day.

So, I am optimistic... then again, I tend that direction anyway. The great thing about the trade down is the opportunity to fire more bullets at the same target.

steelbtexan
12-15-2013, 09:26 PM
Hard to put much faith in anyone within the organization after this unmitigated disaster. Still, it is difficult to argue with Rick's 1st round record. Other than the Amobi Okoye mistake in year one, He has been great in the first round. I would say that nobody has been better in the NFL over that span of time with their first selection (DBrown, Cushing, KJ, Watt, Hopkins)...

I also have liked his trade downs throughout the years. I think a lot of his success/failure will depend on how well he can work with and understand the new head coach's system and what he wants and needs. Regardless of how an organization designs the power structure, I think that relationship is always an undervalued aspect of the GM's ability to succeed on draft day.

So, I am optimistic... then again, I tend that direction anyway. The great thing about the trade down is the opportunity to fire more bullets at the same target.

I really agree with this post and like your optimistic views. I'm usually quite the opposite when it comes to this regime. The draft consists of more than just the 1st rd. This is where Rick has failed. Exhibit A, the 2013 draft.

dalemurphy
12-15-2013, 09:28 PM
Take BPA. Right now, that's either Bridgewater or Clowney. I'm fine w either. Ideally I'd like Clowney at 1/1 and whichever QB falls at 2/1.

We all have our guy and that's fine if you disagree. We all see what we want to see.

I think the biggest question the Texans will have to answer is how they attack the depth at QB in the draft this year. There will be 8-10 QBs in this draft that quality NFL scouts will score high enough to be a future starter of a quality NFL team. Those mock drafts that they run through in February and March will be key. If they have Mettenburger, Boyd, Murray, Carr, Hundley, etc... rated closely together, do they consider taking a tackle, CB, DL early and then either target one of them specifically in round two... or, allow the board to fall and grab the QB left in round 2 or 3 of a group that they like... Or, do they sit back and allow the 5 or 6 teams determined to grab a QB to fulfill their need, and grab two of the guys on their list as they slide into the middle rounds?... It will be interesting. A lot of variables to work through.

Perhaps all of these QBs are flawed, but I don't recall a draft with so many potential NFL-caliber QBs... I'm torn myself. Should they simply take Bridgewater? Or, should they trade down, collect the best on their board for 4 or 5 picks and then still grab two QBs in the middle rounds that have high ceilings and let them both compete with Keenum and develop in 2014? Not sure.

dalemurphy
12-15-2013, 09:38 PM
I really agree with this post and like your optimistic views. I'm usually quite the opposite when it comes to this regime. The draft consists of more than just the 1st rd. This is where Rick has failed. Exhibit A, the 2013 draft.

Yes... his record does not look good after round one. Still, though, there are signs that some of that is not on Rick Smith as much as on the coaching staff:

for example: Chris Jones, McManis, Shelley Smith come to mind as late round guys that always looked good to me but couldn't get on the field and went to other teams and had some success.

> I think Ben Tate, Barwin, Quin, James Casey, Brandon Brooks were all very good picks that the coaches quit on, moved away from, or failed to put in the right position.

He's also the guy that went after and got Arian Foster as an UDFA- outbidding the Bears for him.

A GM's job is to get the players the coaches need to execute their system. It's hard to separate him from Kubiak... I tend to think he has a good eye for talent and believe he is very capable of making the hard choice and making business decisions instead of emotional ones. My biggest concern is that his youth and lack of experience outside of the Denver West Coast system will make it difficult for him to acquire the right head coach this off-season and be able to work effectively with that person immediately.

PapaL
12-15-2013, 10:21 PM
Normally I would agree with you, but I think Brigdewater is the only qb in this draft with a chance to be a franchise type qb.


Sent from the future...

I like Teddy. I really do. Right now there are questions about him declaring for the draft. That scares me. Does he think he won't be #1 overall? Does he not want to come here? The suddenness of that breaking news has me confused. Hell maybe we're all wrong and he's not the best QB available? He sure looks better than the rest of the pack. He looks a bit wirey but I think he fills out eventually.

Like I said in a different post, it's just odd that whenever we pick #1 there's a QB and a DE fighting for that top pick. Maybe I'm shell shocked but I do know that our future isn't Case or Schaub.

LikeMike
12-16-2013, 06:38 AM
There is one major reason why I would take a QB instead of a superior talent with the first pick: it i just about the only chance you get at a franchise QB. Once they are in the league they practically never hit FA - and if they do there are several teams competing over him. Or you have to trade away multiple first round picks to get one that has problems (and thus is traded).

And nobody in a draft is a guarantee. Clowney seems like the best player, but there are major questionmarks about his drive.

Sure, you could luck out with a later round gem. But the Russell Wilsons and Tom Bradys are rare. Guys like Schaub and Dalton are actually the bright spots...

There is always luck involved in getting a franchise QB - but you greatly improve your chances by taking the QB that analysts agree on being the best in class.

steelbtexan
12-16-2013, 08:49 AM
There is one major reason why I would take a QB instead of a superior talent with the first pick: it i just about the only chance you get at a franchise QB. Once they are in the league they practically never hit FA - and if they do there are several teams competing over him. Or you have to trade away multiple first round picks to get one that has problems (and thus is traded).

And nobody in a draft is a guarantee. Clowney seems like the best player, but there are major questionmarks about his drive.

Sure, you could luck out with a later round gem. But the Russell Wilsons and Tom Bradys are rare. Guys like Schaub and Dalton are actually the bright spots...

There is always luck involved in getting a franchise QB - but you greatly improve your chances by taking the QB that analysts agree on being the best in class.

If you dont think Bridgewater is the best player you dont take him. Those kinds of decisions lead to Carr/Peppers kinds of mistakes.

You can use your high 2nd rd pick to trade into the 1st rd and get your franchise QB. If BoB wants to win now, you take Clowney and I would try to trade a 2014 2nd and a 2015 1st to trade up for one of the QB's (Bortles/Mettenberger/Hundley) and maybe get a 2013 3rd for my trouble.

Trading down in this deep draft would be the best option.

WolverineFan
12-16-2013, 10:25 AM
You can use your high 2nd rd pick to trade into the 1st rd and get your franchise QB. If BoB wants to win now, you take Clowney and I would try to trade a 2014 2nd and a 2015 1st to trade up for one of the QB's (Bortles/Mettenberger/Hundley) and maybe get a 2013 3rd for my trouble.

I don't disagree with your premise about BPA, but I keep seeing you say this (bolded above). What makes any of those guys better "franchise" options than Bridgewater? You're talking about trading multiple future picks for a late 1st round pick instead of just using your #1 on Bridgewater. You realize that you're giving up way more for the other QB in that scenario.

Why is taking Clowney and giving up next year's 1st for a QB "winning now" but taking Bridgewater #1 and a pass rusher #33 is not?

infantrycak
12-16-2013, 10:54 AM
You can use your high 2nd rd pick to trade into the 1st rd and get your franchise QB. If BoB wants to win now, you take Clowney and I would try to trade a 2014 2nd and a 2015 1st to trade up for one of the QB's (Bortles/Mettenberger/Hundley) and maybe get a 2013 3rd for my trouble.

I think I would rather see them move into the approx. 20 range of the draft with this year's 2nd and 3rd, fill the hole from losing a pick with a yeoman FA and not leverage the future so much.

For example, Winston is going to be a FA and is playing this year on a 1 year, $2 mil deal.

As a side note, it seems to me some folks are projecting too many QBs going in the 1st - Bridgewater, Bortles, Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, Hundley. You have to go back to 1983 to find a 6 QB in the 1st draft. There has only been 1 5 QB draft since. About 2.25 is average.

steelbtexan
12-16-2013, 11:10 AM
I don't disagree with your premise about BPA, but I keep seeing you say this (bolded above). What makes any of those guys better "franchise" options than Bridgewater? You're talking about trading multiple future picks for a late 1st round pick instead of just using your #1 on Bridgewater. You realize that you're giving up way more for the other QB in that scenario.

Why is taking Clowney and giving up next year's 1st for a QB "winning now" but taking Bridgewater #1 and a pass rusher #33 is not?

There's not a better pass rusher in this draft than Clowney.

I dont think Bridgewater is worth 1-1. Better Value is Clowney at 1-1 and Bortles/Mettenberger etc.... in late rd 1 or 2-1. IMHO

Where we disagree is Bridgewater is a 1-1 talent.

Tell me the pass rusher you can find at 33 that is even close to the equivalent of Clowney? I can give you a QB that's close to if not better than Bridgewater at 2-1. (Mettenberger/Murray)

WolverineFan
12-16-2013, 11:16 AM
There's not a better pass rusher in this draft than Clowney.

I dont think Bridgewater is worth 1-1. Better Value is Clowney at 1-1 and Bortles/Mettenberger etc.... in late rd 1 or 2-1. IMHO

Where we disagree is Bridgewater is a 1-1 talent.

I'm not sold on Bridgewater being a sure fire 1-1 talent but I'm intrigued. I have no problem with your opinion that he's not.

The hangup is that you see trading #33 and a 2015 1st for Bortles/Mettenberger as a better pick than Bridgewater at #1. Where is the value there?

Now if you're saying Clowney #1 and Mettenberger/Boyd at #33 then I take no issue. But passing on Bridgewater and then trading up to take a QB makes no sense at all.

What you're basically saying is that Bridgewater is not worth #1 so you don't want him, but Bortles/Mettenberger/etc are worth (2) 1st round picks?

steelbtexan
12-16-2013, 11:19 AM
I think I would rather see them move into the approx. 20 range of the draft with this year's 2nd and 3rd, fill the hole from losing a pick with a yeoman FA and not leverage the future so much.

For example, Winston is going to be a FA and is playing this year on a 1 year, $2 mil deal.

As a side note, it seems to me some folks are projecting too many QBs going in the 1st - Bridgewater, Bortles, Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, Hundley. You have to go back to 1983 to find a 6 QB in the 1st draft. There has only been 1 5 QB draft since. About 2.25 is average.

I would take Winston on that deal. I doubt Rick will though. Not enough cap room, (Who's fault is that) too many burned bridges.

WolverineFan
12-16-2013, 11:21 AM
Tell me the pass rusher you can find at 33 that is even close to the equivalent of Clowney? I can give you a QB that's close to if not better than Bridgewater at 2-1. (Mettenberger/Murray)

Clowney is easily the best pass rusher in the draft at his position. That wasn't the issue. You were talking about passing on Bridgewater but then trading up for a QB. That's what I didn't agree with. If you don't think Bridgewater is worth #1 then that's fine. But then why would you think any of those other guys is worth (2) 1st round picks?

Texian
12-16-2013, 11:34 AM
I don't disagree with your premise about BPA, but I keep seeing you say this (bolded above). What makes any of those guys better "franchise" options than Bridgewater? You're talking about trading multiple future picks for a late 1st round pick instead of just using your #1 on Bridgewater. You realize that you're giving up way more for the other QB in that scenario.

Why is taking Clowney and giving up next year's 1st for a QB "winning now" but taking Bridgewater #1 and a pass rusher #33 is not?

I think I would rather see them move into the approx. 20 range of the draft with this year's 2nd and 3rd, fill the hole from losing a pick with a yeoman FA and not leverage the future so much.

For example, Winston is going to be a FA and is playing this year on a 1 year, $2 mil deal.

As a side note, it seems to me some folks are projecting too many QBs going in the 1st - Bridgewater, Bortles, Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, Hundley. You have to go back to 1983 to find a 6 QB in the 1st draft. There has only been 1 5 QB draft since. About 2.25 is average.

There's not a better pass rusher in this draft than Clowney.

I dont think Bridgewater is worth 1-1. Better Value is Clowney at 1-1 and Bortles/Mettenberger etc.... in late rd 1 or 2-1. IMHO

Where we disagree is Bridgewater is a 1-1 talent.

Tell me the pass rusher you can find at 33 that is even close to the equivalent of Clowney? I can give you a QB that's close to if not better than Bridgewater at 2-1. (Mettenberger/Murray)

There are quite a few folks who have many questions about Teddy. The many questions about Teddy suggest there is more of chance of him being a bust vs being an OK NFL QB. There are not many in the camp of he will be a GREAT QB. Bridgewater has been the media darling and their consensus #1 draft pick all year and yet he didn't appear in the Top 10 voting for the Heisman. Bill Walsh always said, believe what your eyes and ears are telling you.

I think it's clear that Winston's skills have diminished over the years, the Texans may have chose the right to cut Winston but failed miserably in trying to replace him. I think moving up to take a top 5 OT is the better way to go. If the Texans had drafted Bulaga or Glenn and fixed the problem they wouldn't have resorted to the all to familiar let's find a band aid we can afford and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

If Bortles doesn't come out there is a very good chance that Mettenberger could be the best QB in this draft class.