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Bulls on Parade
11-11-2013, 02:51 PM
I don't think you can ever pass on a franchise QB if one is available.
Very hard to define what that is. Didn't we start the franchise out by selecting David Carr with the first overall pick in 2002? And all of us would like to go back in time and select Julius Peppers instead I'm sure. Or even Ed Reed, a young one, that was very very good. Not the washed up version we have now. In most cases, it's best to go with a defensive player or an offensive lineman with a top five pick. Especially if we end up with the first overall pick again. Right now we have the 4th pick.

Corrosion
11-11-2013, 03:06 PM
I don't think you can ever pass on a franchise QB if one is available.

I am not sold on the fact that any of the QB's in this draft are "Franchise QB's."


Every one of them has their flaws ....

Playoffs
11-11-2013, 03:21 PM
I am not sold on the fact that any of the QB's in this draft are "Franchise QB's."

Every one of them has their flaws ....

I'm not either, but will we suck bad enough next year to go for one on the 2015 guys? Can you wait, or do we strike when we can? Would you trade away our 2014 #1 for an extra 2015 #1 hoping to package them in 2015 draft? Can we be that long-sighted?

Exascor
11-11-2013, 03:22 PM
I am not sold on the fact that any of the QB's in this draft are "Franchise QB's."


Every one of them has their flaws ....

100% agree. There seem to be a bunch of solid QBs and no sure things. We have a QB that is on pace for over 4000 yards and 37 TDs with no INTs yet. Did I mention that is against NFL defenses - not college?

If Luck, Griffin, Stafford, Newton or Ryan were coming out then maybe. This draft's QB class reminds me of 2003 or maybe 2011 without Newton.

badboy
11-11-2013, 03:24 PM
I high first round pick on a LT yes. On a RT no!!!!

What Steel says. Matthews can switch sides in a blink. Who do we replace Brown with if he gets injured? Harris...no. I like players that play more than one position and will show in my next mock.

Exascor
11-11-2013, 03:26 PM
I'm not either, but will we suck bad enough next year to go for one on the 2015 guys? Can you wait, or do we strike when we can? Would you trade away our 2014 #1 for an extra 2015 #1 hoping to package them in 2015 draft? Can we be that long-sighted?

So you would have us take a QB in the first round that isn't a franchise QB just because we have a high pick?

b0ng
11-11-2013, 04:39 PM
I am not sold on the fact that any of the QB's in this draft are "Franchise QB's."


Every one of them has their flaws ....

We're still in the middle of the CFB season and have yet to have championship games and bowl games. Then the combine, then pro days, then free agency then comes the draft. Opinions will change.

Playoffs
11-11-2013, 05:08 PM
So you would have us take a QB in the first round that isn't a franchise QB just because we have a high pick?

I don't see an Andrew Luck slam dunk or an RG3 pre-knee.

But I've been wrong, before... I didn't think Tom Brady was a a franchise QB.

Bulls on Parade
11-11-2013, 05:09 PM
We're still in the middle of the CFB season and have yet to have championship games and bowl games. Then the combine, then pro days, then free agency then comes the draft. Opinions will change.
The one opinion that will not change: Case Keenum is very capable of running the current offensive system the Texans run. If we're not going to make any major coaching changes then why try to upgrade what isn't broken? I like the idea of drafting a quarterback but in round three or four, certainly not with a potential top five pick in the first round.

I would like to see what Case Keenum can do behind a good offensive line and a strong running game to compliment his play-action passes. We lost the last three games by a combined seven points, two of them on the road, against three playoff caliber teams. Case Keenum could very easily be 3-0 and not 0-3, and he's probably undefeated if we had a healthy Arian Foster and Brian Cushing.

We have to go defense in round one (Clowney, Barr, Mosley) or offensive line. Jake Matthews will probably live up to his father's shoes and become a great one for a long time. I don't mind either of those four guys. And like I said we have the 4th overall pick right now so we can definitely land one of those guys as I type this.

powda
11-11-2013, 05:19 PM
There seem to be a bunch of solid QBs and no sure things.

No such thing as a sure thing among rookie qb's. I used to think so and sam Bradford was the last qb I thought was a sure thing. Wrong.

Before case I thought it was absolutley imperative that we draft a qb. Now I wanna see more. One thing is sure, no qb is a sure thing without a solid ol and strong supporting cast. Gimme a legit coaching staff with a pedigree for qb grooming. Gimme a legit ol, THEN give me a young qb we throw to the wolves.

Trouble is, a new coaching staff will want to live and die by their own handpicked qb. The remainder of the season is likely just an audition for case elsewhere.

Corrosion
11-11-2013, 05:58 PM
We're still in the middle of the CFB season and have yet to have championship games and bowl games. Then the combine, then pro days, then free agency then comes the draft. Opinions will change.

I realize that .... but from what I've seen on the field , none of these guy's are an Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning coming out of college.

I think each one has flaws , and I'm ... all over the place in evaluation of them on a week to week basis just as they are in their performances.

The most consistent performer of them to me is .... Manziel but how does his game translate to an NFL field ?? I don't think I've seen him take a snap from under center all season not to mention his size.

mussop
11-11-2013, 06:39 PM
I realize that .... but from what I've seen on the field , none of these guy's are an Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning coming out of college.

I think each one has flaws , and I'm ... all over the place in evaluation of them on a week to week basis just as they are in their performances.

The most consistent performer of them to me is .... Manziel but how does his game translate to an NFL field ?? I don't think I've seen him take a snap from under center all season not to mention his size.

All I know is every time I watch him I'm stunned at his play making ability. He's Fran Tarkington reborn. He tore up Alabamas defense. That's impressive! They are loaded with nfl talent. Of course it all depends on who the coach is and what type of system they plan on running.

Could you imagine if we brought in art briles and drafted manzel? Pick up a good RT in the second or third and use the rest if the draft on defense.

I think Case has done a really good job considering the circumstances. But in no way am I ready to hand him The reigns to the team just yet. I know he's been in tough situations but he's had opportunities to lead us to wins and hasn't come through. A true franchise QB will find a way to win those games. He has 7 more games to show he can be the guy. I'm pulling for him but I'm being very cautious of fools gold. The QB position is too important. I don't want a really good QB. I want a great QB.

Obviously the draft is a gamble but you have to bet to win. Until Case or someone steps up and shows he can carry the team on his back to victories then we should be doing what ever it takes to keep bringing in talent at that position.

WolverineFan
11-11-2013, 06:52 PM
I realize that .... but from what I've seen on the field , none of these guy's are an Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning coming out of college.

I think each one has flaws , and I'm ... all over the place in evaluation of them on a week to week basis just as they are in their performances.

The most consistent performer of them to me is .... Manziel but how does his game translate to an NFL field ?? I don't think I've seen him take a snap from under center all season not to mention his size.

I disagree. Bridgewater has completed over 70% of his passes in all but 2 games, he's thrown for 250+ in every game but 1, he's thrown multiple TD's in all but 2 games, and has really only had 1 bad game (by his standards) which was his last game. He's thrown for 2845 yards while completing 71.4% of his passes with 24 TD's and 3 INT's.

He is constantly knocked for his team losing to UCF (who will likely be in the Orange Bowl this year) despite the fact that he was 29/38 for 341 yards and 2 TD's in that game. To me, he's definitely the best NFL prospect this year at QB and is only knocked because of the level of competition he plays. What people fail to realize is that his teammates are that same level of competition. The reason his team is seen as superior to the competition is because of him.

People said the same stuff about Roethlisberger, but when a guy has the tools he has them. I don't see any of the Case fanboys complaining about his college competition....

Corrosion
11-11-2013, 07:04 PM
I disagree. Bridgewater has completed over 70% of his passes in all but 2 games, he's thrown for 250+ in every game but 1, he's thrown multiple TD's in all but 2 games, and has really only had 1 bad game (by his standards) which was his last game. He's thrown for 2845 yards while completing 71.4% of his passes with 24 TD's and 3 INT's.

He is constantly knocked for his team losing to UCF (who will likely be in the Orange Bowl this year) despite the fact that he was 29/38 for 341 yards and 2 TD's in that game. To me, he's definitely the best NFL prospect this year at QB and is only knocked because of the level of competition he plays. What people fail to realize is that his teammates are that same level of competition. The reason his team is seen as superior to the competition is because of him.

People said the same stuff about Roethlisberger, but when a guy has the tools he has them. I don't see any of the Case fanboys complaining about his college competition....

I didn't mention Bridgewater mainly because I suspect he'll go #1 overall .... and you are right , about the only knock on him is the level of competition he's playing against. He has all the tools ... but he's nowhere near the caliber of prospect that Luck or Peymeaton were coming out.

Corrosion
11-11-2013, 07:07 PM
All I know is every time I watch him I'm stunned at his play making ability. He's Fran Tarkington reborn. He tore up Alabamas defense. That's impressive! They are loaded with nfl talent. Of course it all depends on who the coach is and what type of system they plan on running.

Could you imagine if we brought in art briles and drafted manzel? Pick up a good RT in the second or third and use the rest if the draft on defense.

I think Case has done a really good job considering the circumstances. But in no way am I ready to hand him The reigns to the team just yet. I know he's been in tough situations but he's had opportunities to lead us to wins and hasn't come through. A true franchise QB will find a way to win those games. He has 7 more games to show he can be the guy. I'm pulling for him but I'm being very cautious of fools gold. The QB position is too important. I don't want a really good QB. I want a great QB.

Obviously the draft is a gamble but you have to bet to win. Until Case or someone steps up and shows he can carry the team on his back to victories then we should be doing what ever it takes to keep bringing in talent at that position.

I'm not ready to hand Case the reins yet either .... yes , he's had opportunities to win games and come up short but .... his OL has probably been just as big a part of those failures as anything he's done.


I'm still in a wait and see mode with the QB position ... I am not in that same mode when it comes to RT or LG , tho I believe Quessenberry can come in and fill the LG spot adequately next season. There is no NFL quality RT on this roster.

infantrycak
11-11-2013, 07:10 PM
I think Case has done a really good job considering the circumstances. But in no way am I ready to hand him The reigns to the team just yet. I know he's been in tough situations but he's had opportunities to lead us to wins and hasn't come through. A true franchise QB will find a way to win those games.

Just thought I would look into this for perspective. Didn't want to argue over true franchise QB and so went with Hall of Fame + 2 we know will go.

Staubach 3 W
Aikman 3 L
Elway 2 W, 1 L - LOL, in the 2 wins he had 10 completions total, 1 in his 1st game.
Kelly 1 W, 2 L
Favre 1 W, 2 L
Manning 3 L
Marino 3 L
Brady 2 W, 1 L
Bradshaw 3 L
Young 1 W, 2 L
Montana 3 L

Total 10 W, 23 L

Draw from that what you will.

WolverineFan
11-11-2013, 07:13 PM
I didn't mention Bridgewater mainly because I suspect he'll go #1 overall .... and you are right , about the only knock on him is the level of competition he's playing against. He has all the tools ... but he's nowhere near the caliber of prospect that Luck or Peymeaton were coming out.

No, he's not. But then again, those are the only two guys of that caliber that have come out in the last two decades. You're in for a long wait if you're waiting for that guy to come out again before you pull the trigger (although Winston has potential).

Texian
11-11-2013, 07:46 PM
I'm not sure Bridgewater goes #1, he is a bit frail and his deep ball has a tendency to float. Several of his long passes would've been INTs in the NFL. Reminds me of Landry Jones arm.

Manziel has quickest hands, feet and release of any college QB playing this year. Has taken several snaps under center this year. Is running much less this year but still likely to rush for 1000. His mistakes don't phase him, he bounces right back with a TD. Ask yourself this question, with game on the line and you need a game winning drive, in whose hands do you want the football? For me, hands down, no question, it's Johnny Football.

I didn't see anything from Bama vs LSU that changed my thinking on why A. J. McCarron should be a 1st RD draft pick. In fact the LSU game just reinforced my opinion that A.J. will go in round 1.

Trap_Star
11-11-2013, 08:02 PM
I'm not sure Bridgewater goes #1, he is a bit frail and his deep ball has a tendency to float. Several of his long passes would've been INTs in the NFL. Reminds me of Landry Jones arm.

Manziel has quickest hands, feet and release of any college QB playing this year. Has taken several snaps under center this year. Is running much less this year but still likely to rush for 1000. His mistakes don't phase him, he bounces right back with a TD. Ask yourself this question, with game on the line and you need a game winning drive, in whose hands do you want the football? For me, hands down, no question, it's Johnny Football.

I didn't see anything from Bama vs LSU that changed my thinking on why A. J. McCarron should be a 1st RD draft pick. In fact the LSU game just reinforced my opinion that A.J. will go in round 1.

What scares me about AJ is the he is rarely touched in the pocket. He has all day to throw with that o-line and it's not going to be that way in the pro's. the intangibles are there for sure though.

Texian
11-11-2013, 08:07 PM
What scares me about AJ is the he is rarely touched in the pocket. He has all day to throw with that o-line and it's not going to be that way in the pro's. the intangibles are there for sure though.

He had some pressure from LSU, was even sacked but for the most he did a good job avoiding the pressure. He has a presence.

steelbtexan
11-11-2013, 08:16 PM
What scares me about AJ is the he is rarely touched in the pocket. He has all day to throw with that o-line and it's not going to be that way in the pro's. the intangibles are there for sure though.

Everybody knows my thoughts on McCarron, Bridgewater may be more talented, but McCarron has a very good chance to become the best QB in this draft. Tall/accurate/leader with above avg arm strength (as good as Bridgewater.) Performs well on the big stage.

Luck had a great OL and and people didn't use that as a knock on him come draft day. I guess the Bama/Saban hate runs deep.

mussop
11-11-2013, 08:19 PM
Just thought I would look into this for perspective. Didn't want to argue over true franchise QB and so went with Hall of Fame + 2 we know will go.

Staubach 3 W
Aikman 3 L
Elway 2 W, 1 L - LOL, in the 2 wins he had 10 completions total, 1 in his 1st game.
Kelly 1 W, 2 L
Favre 1 W, 2 L
Manning 3 L
Marino 3 L
Brady 2 W, 1 L
Bradshaw 3 L
Young 1 W, 2 L
Montana 3 L

Total 10 W, 23 L

Draw from that what you will.


I can't really draw anything from that. Well except maybe he that it's just to soon to tell. Which is why I said he has seven more games to prove it or we need to take a gamble on in the draft. Of course even 10 games doesn't mean he can't eventually become a great QB. What I'm saying is if he hast proved it without a doubt we need to go after someone else. That doesn't mean give up on Case. We might not have this chance again for a long time. Hopefully.

mussop
11-11-2013, 08:21 PM
I disagree. Bridgewater has completed over 70% of his passes in all but 2 games, he's thrown for 250+ in every game but 1, he's thrown multiple TD's in all but 2 games, and has really only had 1 bad game (by his standards) which was his last game. He's thrown for 2845 yards while completing 71.4% of his passes with 24 TD's and 3 INT's.

He is constantly knocked for his team losing to UCF (who will likely be in the Orange Bowl this year) despite the fact that he was 29/38 for 341 yards and 2 TD's in that game. To me, he's definitely the best NFL prospect this year at QB and is only knocked because of the level of competition he plays. What people fail to realize is that his teammates are that same level of competition. The reason his team is seen as superior to the competition is because of him.

People said the same stuff about Roethlisberger, but when a guy has the tools he has them. I don't see any of the Case fanboys complaining about his college competition....

Just curious, what do you think he does better than manzel? And remember manzel IS going against the best competition in college football.

Corrosion
11-11-2013, 08:24 PM
Just curious, what do you think he does better than manzel? And remember manzel IS going against the best completion in college football.

Honestly .... he does nothing better other than grow to the prototypical NFL QB height - I wont say size cause he don't have much sand in his pants .... where as Manziel is 5'11" / 6 ft and considered undersized.

Trap_Star
11-11-2013, 08:26 PM
Everybody knows my thoughts on McCarron, Bridgewater may be more talented, but McCarron has a very good chance to become the best QB in this draft. Tall/accurate/leader with above avg arm strength (as good as Bridgewater.) Performs well on the big stage.

Luck had a great OL and and people didn't use that as a knock on him come draft day. I guess the Bama/Saban hate runs deep.

My statement has nothing to do with Bama/Saban so idk why you threw that in there. Luck did have a great o-line, but Luck is also a strong, very athletic QB he could run over defenders. With that said, I never said he isn't worth a first round pick. His skills and intangibles are there like i stated on my initial post. My only fear is that he won't find it as easy in the pro's like he has at Bama in the pocket. Can he overcome that? Of course.

WolverineFan
11-11-2013, 09:27 PM
Just curious, what do you think he does better than manzel? And remember manzel IS going against the best competition in college football.

This is somewhat of a myth. If by that you mean Alabama, then yes that is the best competition. But the rest of the SEC is not that great defensively outside of Florida and LSU. There are some good defenses, but the SEC carries that reputation because of the 2-3 top tier teams and media hype. The Big Ten has 4 teams in the top 11 in total defense and the ACC has 3. The SEC has 2. Yet you never hear the hype about those defenses. Anyway....

Bridgewater takes better care of the ball than Manziel. Manziel has great improvisation, but running around and chucking the ball up to 1 WR and 3 DB's rarely works in the NFL. I've also seen a lot of QB's in this system put up insane numbers and never do a thing in the NFL. Manziel will have to learn a pro system with pro reads and progressions. That takes time. The NFL doesn't have any one-read then scramble offenses. Bridgewater has a huge head-up on him as far as experience in a pro-style offense goes.

Also, the majority of Manziel's effectiveness is based on his play out of the pocket. Just look at what NFL teams have done to Robert Griffin this year. They keep him in the pocket and make him beat them with his arm. They are dedicated to limiting his dual-threat ability. He's also been injured 4-5 times in a season and a half. Manziel is tough, but if he runs around like that in the NFL he won't last 3 seasons. His improv style won't be nearly that effective in the NFL and he won't have a guy like Mike Evans to bail him out. Evans is one of the best players in college football IMO. He is just an outright mismatch on 99% of the DB's he goes up against.

Bridgewater stands in the pocket and destroys everyone he plays against. He ripped apart a top 5 defense last year in Florida and rookie Raven Safety Matt Elam said he was the best QB they faced all season (UF played against Manziel, Tyler Bray, Aaron Murray, and E.J. Manuel). He is mobile enough to escape pressure and keep plays alive, but he's mobile like Andrew Luck not Robert Griffin. He's a natural pocket passer despite his athleticism.

bhsman
11-11-2013, 09:34 PM
Throw in another vote for Manziel, but that's me.

He had some pressure from LSU, was even sacked but for the most he did a good job avoiding the pressure. He has a presence.

As much as it pains me to say it, LSU's sole sack came from an unblocked defender on a naked boot. McCarron also attempted only four passes greater than 20 yards but completed none of them; in addition, the only third down they completed (when put in that position) that was longer than 3rd-and-4 was a 3rd-and-8 with a penalty.

I think McCarron gets way too much credit for not losing games on a team that plays safe football and is stacked with talent. Maybe he'll turn into Tom Brady but nothing tells me he should be taken higher than, say, Murray.

Another interesting stat from Saturday's game? Lamin Barrow, an LSU linebacker, had 11 tackles during the game but only three were solo. Mosley had 12, of which 7 were solo.

Corrosion
11-11-2013, 09:59 PM
Throw in another vote for Manziel, but that's me.



As much as it pains me to say it, LSU's sole sack came from an unblocked defender on a naked boot. McCarron also attempted only four passes greater than 20 yards but completed none of them; in addition, the only third down they completed (when put in that position) that was longer than 3rd-and-4 was a 3rd-and-8 with a penalty.



Sounds like a guy who's currently sitting on the Texans bench .... :kitten:

bhsman
11-11-2013, 10:07 PM
Yeah, except one is a veteran with an injury history and the other is still in college. :kitten:

htownfan32
11-11-2013, 10:17 PM
This is somewhat of a myth. If by that you mean Alabama, then yes that is the best competition. But the rest of the SEC is not that great defensively outside of Florida and LSU. There are some good defenses, but the SEC carries that reputation because of the 2-3 top tier teams and media hype. The Big Ten has 4 teams in the top 11 in total defense and the ACC has 3. The SEC has 2. Yet you never hear the hype about those defenses. Anyway....

Bridgewater takes better care of the ball than Manziel. Manziel has great improvisation, but running around and chucking the ball up to 1 WR and 3 DB's rarely works in the NFL. I've also seen a lot of QB's in this system put up insane numbers and never do a thing in the NFL. Manziel will have to learn a pro system with pro reads and progressions. That takes time. The NFL doesn't have any one-read then scramble offenses. Bridgewater has a huge head-up on him as far as experience in a pro-style offense goes.

Also, the majority of Manziel's effectiveness is based on his play out of the pocket. Just look at what NFL teams have done to Robert Griffin this year. They keep him in the pocket and make him beat them with his arm. They are dedicated to limiting his dual-threat ability. He's also been injured 4-5 times in a season and a half. Manziel is tough, but if he runs around like that in the NFL he won't last 3 seasons. His improv style won't be nearly that effective in the NFL and he won't have a guy like Mike Evans to bail him out. Evans is one of the best players in college football IMO. He is just an outright mismatch on 99% of the DB's he goes up against.

Bridgewater stands in the pocket and destroys everyone he plays against. He ripped apart a top 5 defense last year in Florida and rookie Raven Safety Matt Elam said he was the best QB they faced all season (UF played against Manziel, Tyler Bray, Aaron Murray, and E.J. Manuel). He is mobile enough to escape pressure and keep plays alive, but he's mobile like Andrew Luck not Robert Griffin. He's a natural pocket passer despite his athleticism.

Bold 1: You're right, but I'm willing to excuse that for the same reason that Matt Stafford chucks it up in double coverage to Megatron. If you know your guy or no one is going to come up with it, you go for it.

Bold 2: Fully agree.

Bold 3: Manziel's been throwing some lasers of late. He's good in the pocket and can extend plays. He also is much smarter about contact and only really goes for the hits on the goal line, but he needs to not do that in the NFL. He's not Cam Newton.

Bold 4: Yep, and if it's a habit in the pros it's going to make him bad. However, Manziel has been getting his other WRs involved too. Malcome Kennedy is talented but Manziel makes no names like Travis Labhart look good. Derel Walker catches his fair share of TDs but I would like to say that three interceptions are direct results of Derel Walker's hands tipping the balls (i.e. not on Manziel).


The problem with drafting Manziel is that it's basically a gigantic boom/bust gamble, and you don't want to do that if you're the Texans, I think.

WolverineFan
11-11-2013, 10:35 PM
Bold 1: You're right, but I'm willing to excuse that for the same reason that Matt Stafford chucks it up in double coverage to Megatron. If you know your guy or no one is going to come up with it, you go for it.

Bold 2: Fully agree.

Bold 3: Manziel's been throwing some lasers of late. He's good in the pocket and can extend plays. He also is much smarter about contact and only really goes for the hits on the goal line, but he needs to not do that in the NFL. He's not Cam Newton.

Bold 4: Yep, and if it's a habit in the pros it's going to make him bad. However, Manziel has been getting his other WRs involved too. Malcome Kennedy is talented but Manziel makes no names like Travis Labhart look good. Derel Walker catches his fair share of TDs but I would like to say that three interceptions are direct results of Derel Walker's hands tipping the balls (i.e. not on Manziel).


The problem with drafting Manziel is that it's basically a gigantic boom/bust gamble, and you don't want to do that if you're the Texans, I think.

That's a good point about Stafford and Megatron. I tend to forgive Stafford because Johnson is just that much better than NFL DB's and I hold it against Manziel because I think about him developing bad habits. That may be a double standard on my part.

Manziel also has a pretty good arm that he doesn't get credit for. My point about the injury thing is I distinctly remember him initiating contact against Auburn and hurting his shoulder. That was such a dumb play by him considering. I see him slide only when he absolutely has to and he doesn't always avoid contact. The guys in the NFL are a lot faster and hit a lot harder.

Manziel has seemingly made no name WR's better. I refuse to give him credit for Evans but I'm pretty sure sure Labhart is a walk-on. I will say though, I think the offensive system has a lot to do with it. I won't say all, but I won't say Manziel is the only reason either.

And I agree. He is the definition of boom/bust.

aussie_texan
11-11-2013, 11:12 PM
personally i stack the O-line and give keenum every chance possible then if he doesn't succeed go after a winston, hundley or Hogan next year.
My opinion is that you have to give keenum a good shot at becoming that QB we want.

bhsman
11-11-2013, 11:13 PM
Honestly, if we enjoy watching Keenum throw it up for Andre/Hopkins to grab, I don't see why Manziel doing the same with Evans is so egregious.

aussie_texan
11-11-2013, 11:18 PM
I haven't seen a mock that has Mosley outside of the top 15 .... You'd have to be real careful not to move back too far and miss him if he's your guy.

I wouldn't be against doing so if you could get enough compensation from trading down a few spots to move back into the first round and get one of the elite tackle prospects.

I prefer Florida St OT Cameron Erving .... but many mocks have him going top 15 also.

I don't think you can get Mosley & an elite tackle prospect , its pick your poison & the talent at the tackle spots really drops off after that first ~4-5 guys.

as i said depending where we draft. if its in the top 5 i would be happy to trade back around 9-12 and pick Mosley.

I exactly in the same position has you. I really want both mosley and the elite tackle.
The only way we get is i think trading foster for a 1st round pick. that way you pick matthews first and use foster to get mosley. However this is not madden so its not going to happen.

WolverineFan
11-11-2013, 11:26 PM
as i said depending where we draft. if its in the top 5 i would be happy to trade back around 9-12 and pick Mosley.

I exactly in the same position has you. I really want both mosley and the elite tackle.
The only way we get is i think trading foster for a 1st round pick. that way you pick matthews first and use foster to get mosley. However this is not madden so its not going to happen.

Agree. Nobody is giving up a high pick for Foster. He has a laundry list of injuries and a big contract. Not to mention he's had way too much work in recent years and is probably on the downside of his prime as a RB.

Would love to have Mosley. He's a freakin' beast.

Texian
11-12-2013, 10:25 AM
Throw in another vote for Manziel, but that's me.



As much as it pains me to say it, LSU's sole sack came from an unblocked defender on a naked boot. McCarron also attempted only four passes greater than 20 yards but completed none of them; in addition, the only third down they completed (when put in that position) that was longer than 3rd-and-4 was a 3rd-and-8 with a penalty.

I think McCarron gets way too much credit for not losing games on a team that plays safe football and is stacked with talent. Maybe he'll turn into Tom Brady but nothing tells me he should be taken higher than, say, Murray.

Another interesting stat from Saturday's game? Lamin Barrow, an LSU linebacker, had 11 tackles during the game but only three were solo. Mosley had 12, of which 7 were solo.

On average teams don't throw deep much more than that. And the decision to go deep is not really McCarron's call. That call is Saban and the OC who are conservative by nature. LSU did bring pressure (more than base) often and Bama's biggest pass plays came as a result of McCarron decsion and playmaking vs LSU's blitz (5 or more).

Rey
11-12-2013, 10:44 AM
If we get the #3 pick, I think I'd take clowney and stick him at olb.

Rey
11-12-2013, 10:52 AM
Just felt it. Got the draft bug now. Ready to start looking at these prospects a bit closer.

steelbtexan
11-12-2013, 11:00 AM
If we get the #3 pick, I think I'd take clowney and stick him at olb.

As much as I want Matthews, the thought of Watt and Clowney rushing the passer for the next decade is very appealing.

Corrosion
11-12-2013, 12:34 PM
as i said depending where we draft. if its in the top 5 i would be happy to trade back around 9-12 and pick Mosley.

I exactly in the same position has you. I really want both mosley and the elite tackle.
The only way we get is i think trading foster for a 1st round pick. that way you pick matthews first and use foster to get mosley. However this is not madden so its not going to happen.

Foster wouldn't net us a 6th right now I don't think .... big contract & injuries.


BUT pending we end up with a top 5 pick , there is the possibility of getting both a tackle (doubtful its Erving) and Mosley .... depending upon what compensation you get by trading back ~5-7 picks.
If you get a 2nd as compensation , you could easily package that along with your own #2 to get back up in the middle of the first round giving you two selections from ~10-12 and ~12-15.
You might even be able to keep one of those second rounder's and give up a 2nd & 3rd instead , picking somewhere around ~18.


Maybe you end up with Mosley & Antonio Richardson of Tennessee who is very comparable to Erving.

Blake
11-12-2013, 12:58 PM
Why , so he can get killed behind the likes of Wade Smith and Derek Newton ... ??? Just take a look at the first and last plays the Texans offense ran yesterday for prime examples.

They really missed Foster yesterday too as he's very good at picking up the right guy in blitz situations , Dennis Johnson made multiple blocking errors in the second half.

Why? Because we need a franchise QB. In this league you live and die by the QB and I want the best. As far as Newton and Smith are concerned you can get right tackles and left guards in other rounds or free agency. The same goes for a RB, especially in today's NFL. Franchise signal callers are what its all about. They make the bus go. Just look at what Schaub did to us this season.

The first round is where you have the best shot at getting a franchise QB. That should be pretty apparent.

infantrycak
11-12-2013, 01:13 PM
The first round is where you have the best shot at getting a franchise QB. That should be pretty apparent.

You don't just play the odds. You make an evaluation of the particular players involved. Seeing the need and forcing a QB pick results in David Carr, Joey Harrington, Blaine Gabbert, etc. If they really believe a guy is a franchise QB then fine, take him.

Texian
11-12-2013, 01:15 PM
Why? Because we need a franchise QB. In this league you live and die by the QB and I want the best. As far as Newton and Smith are concerned you can get right tackles and left guards in other rounds or free agency. The same goes for a RB, especially in today's NFL. Franchise signal callers are what its all about. They make the bus go. Just look at what Schaub did to us this season.

The first round is where you have the best shot at getting a franchise QB. That should be pretty apparent.

Blake gets it!

This week the Texans 2-7, .555, have the 5th pick in the 2014 NFL Draft; http://www.gbnreport.com/weeklydraftorder.html

htownfan32
11-12-2013, 01:16 PM
What happens if we end up with the first pick? Worst case scenario. We are only one game ahead of Tampa and the Jags.

Do you pull the trigger on Teddy Bridgewater or no?

Corrosion
11-12-2013, 01:17 PM
Why? Because we need a franchise QB. In this league you live and die by the QB and I want the best. As far as Newton and Smith are concerned you can get right tackles and left guards in other rounds or free agency. The same goes for a RB, especially in today's NFL. Franchise signal callers are what its all about. They make the bus go. Just look at what Schaub did to us this season.

The first round is where you have the best shot at getting a franchise QB. That should be pretty apparent.

I'm not against taking a QB - don't get me wrong .... I just don't see any real franchise QB's in this draft. Every one of them is a huge gamble tho some greater than others.


I do want to see Keenum finish the season before we make the decision we have to draft a QB .... he's played pretty damn well so far despite unfavorable conditions - no running game and a sh!t OL.

Also filling those holes at LG & RT via FA .... will cost premium $$$$.


Lets at least get to the end of the season before we finalize our evaluations of the QB spot - its a near complete unknown , those other spots (LG , RT , ILB , NT) aren't.

What happens if we end up with the first pick? Worst case scenario. We are only one game ahead of Tampa and the Jags.

Do you pull the trigger on Teddy Bridgewater or no?

Tough question .... one I wouldn't want to make just yet.

steelbtexan
11-12-2013, 01:18 PM
Foster wouldn't net us a 6th right now I don't think .... big contract & injuries.


BUT pending we end up with a top 5 pick , there is the possibility of getting both a tackle (doubtful its Erving) and Mosley .... depending upon what compensation you get by trading back ~5-7 picks.
If you get a 2nd as compensation , you could easily package that along with your own #2 to get back up in the middle of the first round giving you two selections from ~10-12 and ~12-15.
You might even be able to keep one of those second rounder's and give up a 2nd & 3rd instead , picking somewhere around ~18.


Maybe you end up with Mosley & Antonio Richardson of Tennessee who is very comparable to Erving.

If they make that trade give me Nix and Erving and Skov later.

Building in the trenches is where this team has been lacking. It's time to build from the inside out and find another nickle CB.

Texian
11-12-2013, 01:18 PM
What happens if we end up with the first pick? Worst case scenario. We are only one game ahead of Tampa and the Jags.

Do you pull the trigger on Teddy Bridgewater or no?

No, Johnny Football

Actually you hire David Shaw as HC and let him figure it out.

Blake
11-12-2013, 01:22 PM
You don't just play the odds. You make an evaluation of the particular players involved. Seeing the need and forcing a QB pick results in David Carr, Joey Harrington, Blaine Gabbert, etc.

I agree you dont just play the odds. All the QB's you mention were selected because teams evaluated them and judged their value in the top 10 of their draft class. Gabbert, Carr and Harrington werent the only QBs left on the board. They were judged to be top signal callers and worthy of a top 10 pick.

Obviously if you dont feel that the QB prospect is a top signal caller and have another position player rated higher you can go with that. But with a top 5 pick (and Bridgewater, Mariota, Hundley potentially coming out) we would virtually be a lock for a highly rated signal caller. And it wouldnt be out of the question to move up a couple of spots to land your guy.

Blake
11-12-2013, 01:25 PM
No, Johnny Football

Actually you hire David Shaw as HC and let him figure it out.

No, Mariota. And you are headed in the right direction, but the coach you should be thinking about coaches in Waco Texas.

htownfan32
11-12-2013, 01:25 PM
No, Mariota. And you are headed in the right direction, but the coach you should be thinking about coaches in Waco Texas.

I'm not sure what you see in what is basically an inferior version of Johnny Manziel.

steelbtexan
11-12-2013, 01:32 PM
I'm not against taking a QB - don't get me wrong .... I just don't see any real franchise QB's in this draft. Every one of them is a huge gamble tho some greater than others.


I do want to see Keenum finish the season before we make the decision we have to draft a QB .... he's played pretty damn well so far despite unfavorable conditions - no running game and a sh!t OL.

Also filling those holes at LG & RT via FA .... will cost premium $$$$.


Lets at least get to the end of the season before we finalize our evaluations of the QB spot - its a near complete unknown , those other spots (LG , RT , ILB , NT) aren't.



Tough question .... one I wouldn't want to make just yet.

I would put off drafting a QB until 2015, fill as many holes as the new regime can and find out if Keenum can be the QB of the future by giving him the rest of this season and all of 2014. If Keenum isn't the man for the job, then trade up and pick Hogan in the 2015 draft. I'm biased, my 2 favorite QB's are McCarron and Hogan.

WolverineFan
11-12-2013, 01:36 PM
If we get the #3 pick, I think I'd take clowney and stick him at olb.

What would you do with Mercilus? If you don't mind my asking.

Corrosion
11-12-2013, 01:47 PM
I agree you dont just play the odds. All the QB's you mention were selected because teams evaluated them and judged their value in the top 10 of their draft class. Gabbert, Carr and Harrington werent the only QBs left on the board. They were judged to be top signal callers and worthy of a top 10 pick.

Obviously if you dont feel that the QB prospect is a top signal caller and have another position player rated higher you can go with that. But with a top 5 pick (and Bridgewater, Mariota, Hundley potentially coming out) we would virtually be a lock for a highly rated signal caller. And it wouldnt be out of the question to move up a couple of spots to land your guy.

We obviously evaluate this group of QB's differently .... at this point in time.


Of those you listed , Bridgewater is the only one I take with a first round pick (this year).
Mariota looks to me to be a system QB and probably the best athlete on the field in any given game - that doesn't make him a good QB.

Hundley is probably two years away from being close to NFL ready. He's a project.

I'd rather go with Murray in the second or McCarron in the 3rd than either Mariota or Hundley , might even take Boyd and Manziel over them as well.

Rey
11-12-2013, 01:47 PM
What would you do with Mercilus? If you don't mind my asking.

Ever since the Mercilus pick was announced i was down on it. I did not see the actual ability that his one year of great production. He plays stiff to me and I don't see a real football player when I look at how he moves.

I'm not a fan of his or reeds.

So really I don't care what they do with him.

But practically speaking I'd have an open competition for his spot.

If you're asking if Mercilus could play opposite clowney, my answer is yes. But again, I'd open the competition and if he didn't win the spot I'd bench him.

WolverineFan
11-12-2013, 01:58 PM
Ever since the Mercilus pick was announced i was down on it. I did not see the actual ability that his one year of great production. He plays stiff to me and I don't see a real football player when I look at how he moves.

I'm not a fan of his or reeds.

So really I don't care what they do with him.

But practically speaking I'd have an open competition for his spot.

If you're asking if Mercilus could play opposite clowney, my answer is yes. But again, I'd open the competition and if he didn't win the spot I'd bench him.

Mercilus was definitely an "all potential" pick. He was pretty raw and only had the one year of production like you said. I think it's obvious he always relied too much on his athletic ability and hasn't really developed. It is pretty frustrating that the defense is basically built for him to succeed and he only has 4.5 sacks.

As for my original question, I only ask because I see Clowney as Ninja's replacement at DE. The problem is I question his ability with double teams so my 2nd position for him would be WLB. Mercilus doesn't really have another position in the defense though so he'd be a wasted pick if you move Clowney there. He did play well in spot duty last year at the 7' technique, but it was mostly on passing downs. I question his ability to two-gap and cover TE/RB's.

Rey
11-12-2013, 02:33 PM
Mercilus was definitely an "all potential" pick. He was pretty raw and only had the one year of production like you said. I think it's obvious he always relied too much on his athletic ability and hasn't really developed. It is pretty frustrating that the defense is basically built for him to succeed and he only has 4.5 sacks.

As for my original question, I only ask because I see Clowney as Ninja's replacement at DE. The problem is I question his ability with double teams so my 2nd position for him would be WLB. Mercilus doesn't really have another position in the defense though so he'd be a wasted pick if you move Clowney there. He did play well in spot duty last year at the 7' technique, but it was mostly on passing downs. I question his ability to two-gap and cover TE/RB's.


I'd play clowney exactly how we played Mario.

Right now I'm assuming that the coaching staff will be back. Who knows. We could go to a 43.

Personally, I wouldn't put him at 34 DE though. I think he would be a beast on the edge where he could better use his athleticism.

I know most disagree, but I'd move Cushing outside to be the solb opposite clowney.

I can almost guaranteed we'd get more pressure on qb's from the edges.

WolverineFan
11-12-2013, 02:44 PM
I'd play clowney exactly how we played Mario.

Right now I'm assuming that the coaching staff will be back. Who knows. We could go to a 43.

Personally, I wouldn't put him at 34 DE though. I think he would be a beast on the edge where he could better use his athleticism.

I know most disagree, but I'd move Cushing outside to be the solb opposite clowney.

I can almost guaranteed we'd get more pressure on qb's from the edges.

It's certainly not a bad idea. Right now Mercilus basically plays a wide 9 and his only responsibilities are leverage to his side and rushing the passer. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Clowney would be more successful, if not much more successful. Also, Clowney tends to get lazy in the run game so it's not a bad idea to put him in a position to focus mainly on rushing the passer.

I haven't made it a secret on this board but I have a certain disdain for the way Clowney has played this year. His pursuit effort has been pitiful this year and he seems to only care about two things 1) sacks and 2) not getting hurt. I acknowledge his ridiculous talent, but I question his work ethic and seeing a guy with that kind of talent not give 100% effort really pisses me off.

76Texan
11-12-2013, 03:24 PM
The fact that people in this thread alone disagree on which QB is rated the highest should mean that there's no sure-fire franchise QB in this class.

Sounds to me like rolling the dice if one wants to go all-in for a QB.

Blake
11-12-2013, 03:46 PM
The fact that people in this thread alone disagree on which QB is rated the highest should mean that there's no sure-fire franchise QB in this class.

Sounds to me like rolling the dice if one wants to go all-in for a QB.

Manning and Leaf were widely debated on who should be rated the highest. Doesnt mean there wasnt a sure-fire franchise QB there.

Corrosion
11-12-2013, 03:52 PM
The fact that people in this thread alone disagree on which QB is rated the highest should mean that there's no sure-fire franchise QB in this class.

Sounds to me like rolling the dice if one wants to go all-in for a QB .

Because of that , doesn't it make sense to take the highest risk / reward guy if you are in fact going to take the gamble ?

Blake
11-12-2013, 03:56 PM
I'm not sure what you see in what is basically an inferior version of Johnny Manziel.

To each his own. I see a guy who is a dual threat QB with blazing speed, and height to see over the o-line. I see a guy who is taking care of the football and making good decisions. Resembles Kaepernick to an extent.

Texian
11-12-2013, 03:57 PM
Most college QBs if they don't have 30 college starts under their belt will return to school. The general rule of thumb is the NFL will downgrade their their perspective draft position because of a lack of experience. NFL Conventional Wisdom is those college QBs with 30 or more college starts tend to be the rookie QBs who have better and earlier success in the NFL.

76Texan
11-12-2013, 04:54 PM
Because of that , doesn't it make sense to take the highest risk / reward guy if you are in fact going to take the gamble ?

That guy would be Clowney.

Corrosion
11-12-2013, 05:38 PM
That guy would be Clowney.

Or Manziel (strictly speaking on the QB position).


I think they are both boom or bust ...

htownfan32
11-12-2013, 07:38 PM
To each his own. I see a guy who is a dual threat QB with blazing speed, and height to see over the o-line. I see a guy who is taking care of the football and making good decisions. Resembles Kaepernick to an extent.

I can see where many would be enamored with Mariota. I'm not really one of them. He is in my mind like Manziel, too difficult to project at a pro level in a pro offense.

I think he'd kill it if Philly picked him up, though.

TexansSeminole
11-12-2013, 08:08 PM
I can see where many would be enamored with Mariota. I'm not really one of them. He is in my mind like Manziel, too difficult to project at a pro level in a pro offense.

I think he'd kill it if Philly picked him up, though.

I don't see how he is anything like Manziel. They both can run and are in odd spread schemes, that's about it.

Texian
11-12-2013, 08:15 PM
I can see where many would be enamored with Mariota. I'm not really one of them. He is in my mind like Manziel, too difficult to project at a pro level in a pro offense.

I think he'd kill it if Philly picked him up, though.

I don't see how he is anything like Manziel. They both can run and are in odd spread schemes, that's about it.

The difference in Manziel and Mariota is Manziel is Must See TV. Manziel sees the field better than any other college QB today and Manziel is better at improvisation.

Naija Texan
11-12-2013, 08:44 PM
The fact that people in this thread alone disagree on which QB is rated the highest should mean that there's no sure-fire franchise QB in this class.

Sounds to me like rolling the dice if one wants to go all-in for a QB.

Pretty much, just like last draft a lot of great college QBs that may not have what it takes in the NFL.

Personally, I think the safe and smart bet would be to trade the Texans first round pick for another team's that might be lower plus more 1st or 2nd round picks. As nice as this QB class is looking, we all know big name guys in College football right now will fall a round or two based off slip ups in the combine and just the normal GMs trying to outsmart themselves.

Personally, I'd grab someone that can take the place of one of the departing starters like Wade Smith or maybe Antonio Smith (who I hope we retain) and then pick up one of the fallen QBs later in the round or in the second.

The fact is the best QBs right now are all undersized, might as well get legit needs handled first so that if we can have our new QB surrounded with talent that can help him succeed sooner rather then later.

aussie_texan
11-13-2013, 12:56 AM
If we get the #3 pick, I think I'd take clowney and stick him at olb.

if your going to stay with 3-4 surely you go Barr over clowney. both a incredible playmakers and barr is having the better season this year

aussie_texan
11-13-2013, 12:58 AM
Foster wouldn't net us a 6th right now I don't think .... big contract & injuries.


BUT pending we end up with a top 5 pick , there is the possibility of getting both a tackle (doubtful its Erving) and Mosley .... depending upon what compensation you get by trading back ~5-7 picks.
If you get a 2nd as compensation , you could easily package that along with your own #2 to get back up in the middle of the first round giving you two selections from ~10-12 and ~12-15.
You might even be able to keep one of those second rounder's and give up a 2nd & 3rd instead , picking somewhere around ~18.


Maybe you end up with Mosley & Antonio Richardson of Tennessee who is very comparable to Erving.

yeah i like that idea. Mosley is just to much of a playmaker for me to pass on. in terms of defence its him barr and clowney has your elite talents in the draft imo. Also if you could keep that 2nd round pick. taking ebron would be icing on the cake…but i think I'm asking for a bit to much :kitten:

you really think thats all we would get for foster?
I agree that his health is a concern but his contract is favourable considering when healthy is an elite RB in the league. when i see richardson going for a 1st surely foster is worth at minimum the same amount

Wolf6151
11-13-2013, 01:15 AM
yeah i like that idea. Mosley is just to much of a playmaker for me to pass on. in terms of defence its him barr and clowney has your elite talents in the draft imo. Also if you could keep that 2nd round pick. taking ebron would be icing on the cake…but i think I'm asking for a bit to much :kitten:

you really think thats all we would get for foster?
I agree that his health is a concern but his contract is favourable considering when healthy is an elite RB in the league. when i see richardson going for a 1st surely foster is worth at minimum the same amount

The reason Richardson is worth more than Foster is that he's younger, healthier, and alot less mileage. Plus the Colts over paid. I think the best you'd get for Foster would be a 4th and that's not even likely. Foster is having spinal surgery, has lots of mileage with diminishing returns, and is already old for a RB.

aussie_texan
11-13-2013, 04:46 AM
The reason Richardson is worth more than Foster is that he's younger, healthier, and alot less mileage. Plus the Colts over paid. I think the best you'd get for Foster would be a 4th and that's not even likely. Foster is having spinal surgery, has lots of mileage with diminishing returns, and is already old for a RB.

but his terrible!!!!!!

can't believe i used to think he was good :vincepalm:

Corrosion
11-13-2013, 09:04 AM
The reason Richardson is worth more than Foster is that he's younger, healthier, and alot less mileage. Plus the Colts over paid. I think the best you'd get for Foster would be a 4th and that's not even likely. Foster is having spinal surgery, has lots of mileage with diminishing returns, and is already old for a RB.

Isn't Richardson still on a rookie scale contract ?! Contracts have a huge impact on player trade value , especially bonus money that is accelerated.

Foster's deal 5 years 43.5m total , 12.5 signing bonus 20.75 guaranteed.

Richardson 4 years 20.489m total 13.341m signing bonus 20.489m guaranteed.


The difference here is that the Browns ate any funds from that 13.341m signing bonus that hadn't been paid and the Dolts get him for 1.32m this season , 2.52m in 2014 and 3.18m in 2015.

Foster's cap hit is between 8.25m and 9.5m for this season and three more after it.


Richardson's value is inflated by the fact that Cleveland was able to eat the cap hit passing that value on to Indy and being compensated a #1 pick for it.

If the Texans were to eat Foster's bonus money the team he goes to is still on the hook for ~6.25m - 7m per year.

Compare that to what Indy is paying Richardson now .... roughly 25-45% over the life of the deal.

Texian
11-13-2013, 09:07 AM
Isn't Richardson still on a rookie scale contract ?! Contracts have a huge impact on player trade value , especially bonus money that is accelerated.

Foster's deal 5 years 43.5m total , 12.5 signing bonus 20.75 guaranteed.

Richardson 4 years 20.489m total 13.341m signing bonus 20.489m guaranteed.


The difference here is that the Browns ate any funds from that 13.341m signing bonus that hadn't been paid and the Dolts get him for 1.32m this season , 2.52m in 2014 and 3.18m in 2015.

Foster's cap hit is between 8.25m and 9.5m for this season and three more after it.


Richardson's value is inflated by the fact that Cleveland was able to eat the cap hit passing that value on to Indy and being compensated a #1 pick for it.

^^^^^ Refreshing to see that someone truly understands the working of the salary cap.

76Texan
11-13-2013, 09:57 AM
The Colts thought they were getting good value with Richardson's "affordable" remaining portion on his rookie contract, but it looks like now that they are just wasting their first round pick in 2014.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2013-11-10/trent-richardson-trade-a-bust-colts-vs-rams-score-andrew-luck-sacks-hits-one-dimensional-afc

Also, I don't think you can compare a guy on his rookie contract, who has yet to prove anything in the NFL with Foster.

$2M might be less than $6M, but if you don't get the return of that spending, the $2M is just money down the drain.

infantrycak
11-13-2013, 10:34 AM
If the Texans were to eat Foster's bonus money the team he goes to is still on the hook for ~6.25m - 7m per year.

Compare that to what Indy is paying Richardson now .... roughly 25-45% over the life of the deal.

All true. But, the trade value is not affected by the ability of the trading team to absorb the cap hit. That just makes the trade possible.

The below is also true.

$2M might be less than $6M, but if you don't get the return of that spending, the $2M is just money down the drain.

2.8 ypc for a starting RB is a player you are thinking to replace regardless of his salary.

Mr teX
11-13-2013, 10:47 AM
top 5 pick....get your qb

top 10 pick...get jake matthews

Corrosion
11-13-2013, 10:52 AM
All true. But, the trade value is not affected by the ability of the trading team to absorb the cap hit. That just makes the trade possible.




Ah but it is ... as the team getting said player is getting him at a discounted salary cap hit for the duration of the deal - Pending the player was worth the initial value.

Basically they are paying less for the same production. In this case , the Dolts are getting a ~4.6m player for 1.3m this season. They save 3.335m in both actual cash and cap space.

What's more valuable to you , Trent Richardson at 4.6m or Trent Richardson at 1.3m ?? This is comparing apples to apples .... for once.


top 5 pick....get your qb

top 10 pick...get jake matthews

OT has become one of the premier positions in the game , I cant see Matthews being on the board beyond the 4th-5th picks.

Bridgewater , Clowney & Mariota .... who else do you see going in front of Matthews ?

infantrycak
11-13-2013, 11:28 AM
Ah but it is ... as the team getting said player is getting him at a discounted salary cap hit for the duration of the deal - Pending the player was worth the initial value.

Basically they are paying less for the same production. In this case , the Dolts are getting a ~4.6m player for 1.3m this season. They save 3.335m in both actual cash and cap space.

What's more valuable to you , Trent Richardson at 4.6m or Trent Richardson at 1.3m ?? This is comparing apples to apples .... for once.

Actually no. The structure of the prior deal is irrelevant except for the portion the new team is taking on. The are getting Trent Richardson for $1.3 mil regardless of whether he had been paid a $3 mil signing bonus or a $30 mil signing bonus. Heck the Browns could have been in position to pay his signing bonus as a roster bonus last year and so he would have been $1.3 mil for either team this year. Makes no difference to the value Indy is getting - it is all $1.3 mil.

If you are buying a chicken you don't care whether the seller got it for free or paid $100k thinking it laid golden eggs. Richardson remains a $1.3 mil chicken.

Texian
11-13-2013, 12:33 PM
Actually no. The structure of the prior deal is irrelevant except for the portion the new team is taking on. The are getting Trent Richardson for $1.3 mil regardless of whether he had been paid a $3 mil signing bonus or a $30 mil signing bonus. Heck the Browns could have been in position to pay his signing bonus as a roster bonus last year and so he would have been $1.3 mil for either team this year. Makes no difference to the value Indy is getting - it is all $1.3 mil.

If you are buying a chicken you don't care whether the seller got it for free or paid $100k thinking it laid golden eggs. Richardson remains a $1.3 mil chicken.

I have watched you often go to left field in a desperate ploy and effort to find something that will make sense to your point of view. A $1.3 mil chicken may be your best or worst depending on how you look at it.

76Texan
11-13-2013, 12:48 PM
Ah but it is ... as the team getting said player is getting him at a discounted salary cap hit for the duration of the deal - Pending the player was worth the initial value.

Basically they are paying less for the same production. In this case , the Dolts are getting a ~4.6m player for 1.3m this season. They save 3.335m in both actual cash and cap space.

What's more valuable to you , Trent Richardson at 4.6m or Trent Richardson at 1.3m ?? This is comparing apples to apples .... for once.




OT has become one of the premier positions in the game , I cant see Matthews being on the board beyond the 4th-5th picks.

Bridgewater , Clowney & Mariota .... who else do you see going in front of Matthews ?

Been watching Matthews. I'm starting to think he might be the safest pick in the draft. It might be a premium pick at RT at no. 5 through 10, but like you said, I don't see too many guys ahead of him as BPA.

Is Evans of more value than Matthews? Possibly.

Blake
11-14-2013, 06:43 AM
No, Mariota. And you are headed in the right direction, but the coach you should be thinking about coaches in Waco Texas.

Well hell. Briles signs 10 year deal to stay with Baylor. Smart move by Baylor.

mussop
11-14-2013, 11:32 AM
Well hell. Briles signs 10 year deal to stay with Baylor. Smart move by Baylor.

I seen that. It sucks, I really was hoping at the very least we could get him as OC.

Texian
11-14-2013, 01:01 PM
I seen that. It sucks, I really was hoping at the very least we could get him as OC.

The only head coaches that I know of that would leave a head coaching position to become an OC is a high school head coach leaving high school to become a college OC.

kiwitexansfan
11-14-2013, 02:31 PM
More and more convinced we need to spend the first round pick on one of the lines.

I believe we have weapons to win on offense if we get the blocking required.

I think that we need someone to take advantage of the attention Watt gets to transform the defense.

infantrycak
11-14-2013, 02:35 PM
The only head coaches that I know of that would leave a head coaching position to become an OC is a high school head coach leaving high school to become a college OC.

Correct.

Current OCs who came from college HC:

Mike Sherman - fired
Jim Caldwell - fired
Bill Callahan - fired
Dirk Koelter - fired
Mike Shua - fired

Mr teX
11-14-2013, 03:43 PM
[QUOTE=

OT has become one of the premier positions in the game , I cant see Matthews being on the board beyond the 4th-5th picks.

Bridgewater , Clowney & Mariota .... who else do you see going in front of Matthews ?[/QUOTE]


if i had to guess a few names i'd say:

Hundley- if he comes out and has a good workout, some team will fall in love with his size & potential & jump up & take him way before he's supposed to go..

Don't know too much about Barr, but lots of mocks project him going in the top 5...a great workout could force a team like ATL who's so thirsty for a pass rusher that they signed an over the hill Umenyiora this past year.. to take him if they wind up inside the top 5.

Can't rule out Sammy Watkins who's just outside the top 5..he's sure to blow teams away with his athleticism at his pro day....& Pittsburgh needs someone opposite brown b/c sanders isn't getting it done.

& that other OT Lewan could be in the mix to go before him if he blows away scouts or performs better or as good at the combine / pro day than matthews.

The x-factor is Manziel imo...considering the teams who project to be at the top of the draft board....Minny, TB, Jax, us....someone's gonna reach for him. Us and Minny are prime candidates b/c it is thought we already have enough weapons to surround him with...

Apart from that you know how the draft goes man..there's always someone who's not on the radar that has a beast workout at the combine & that shoots them up draft boards.

aussie_texan
11-17-2013, 05:23 PM
today reaffirmed my position on drafting a TE early. not with a top 5 pick but possibly in the 2nd and no later then the 3rd.

infantrycak
11-17-2013, 05:36 PM
today reaffirmed my position on drafting a TE early. not with a top 5 pick but possibly in the 2nd and no later then the 3rd.

A 7 rec. 136 yd 1 TD (which almost had another 40 yd comp.) day reaffirmed to you that TE should take precedence over RT, ILB, OG, S, CB and QB? Not getting that.

Rey
11-17-2013, 05:42 PM
I'm still leaning towards clowney if we stay 34.

I think this defense is missing an edge presence like nobody's business.

Maybe when I get around to looking at other players I'll like another edge player more, but for now I still like clowney.

aussie_texan
11-17-2013, 05:44 PM
A 7 rec. 136 yd 1 TD (which almost had another 40 yd comp.) day reaffirmed to you that TE should take precedence over RT, ILB, OG, S, CB and QB? Not getting that.

certainly not over RT and ILB. but over S, QB, OG, and maybe CB depending the value of the players involved when drafting.

also i don't think the stats are indicative of the TE play. was the play calling and QB play the forged those stats not GG making a play. GG is a serviceable TE but with OD probably gone we are left with 2 TEs that a JAGs. bring a big time weapon to help keenum out. Who i still see as the QB for next year

aussie_texan
11-17-2013, 05:46 PM
I'm still leaning towards clowney if we stay 34.

I think this defense is missing an edge presence like nobody's business.

Maybe when I get around to looking at other players I'll like another edge player more, but for now I still like clowney.

if we are staying in the 3-4 i think i would prefer barr over clowney. more natural fit. but really either way you go your getting a beast player

Texian
11-17-2013, 06:13 PM
today reaffirmed my position on drafting a TE early. not with a top 5 pick but possibly in the 2nd and no later then the 3rd.

I understand the need to add TEs w/ Daniels coming off 2nd major injury on backside of his career and Graham becoming a FA. However an a 2nd or 3nd RD may be a bit of an over reaction. Both Daniels and Graham were 4th RD picks and that's where I've Arthur Lynch, TE, Georgia in my mock

Corrosion
11-17-2013, 07:52 PM
I understand the need to add TEs w/ Daniels coming off 2nd major injury on backside of his career and Graham becoming a FA. However an a 2nd or 3nd RD may be a bit of an over reaction. Both Daniels and Graham were 4th RD picks and that's where I've Arthur Lynch, TE, Georgia in my mock


5) Georgia TE Arthur Lynch - OD costs too much. Lynch is a strong blocker and reliable pass catcher.





Ive got Lynch in my mock as well .... but in the 5th round.

A 7 rec. 136 yd 1 TD (which almost had another 40 yd comp.) day reaffirmed to you that TE should take precedence over RT, ILB, OG, S, CB and QB? Not getting that.

Well he is a FA .... no guarantee he returns.


After today's performance (or lack of) by the OL , I'm sticking with taking an OT with that top 5 pick - Unless they end up with #1 and then you have to really consider Bridgewater but I'm not at all sold on him being all that in the NFL.
I'd probably trade out of the #1 spot to #3-8 taking one of Matthews , Lewan or Irving at OT.
Then you have the option of taking a QB in round 2 or trading back into the first round to get one.

mussop
11-17-2013, 10:39 PM
I can't believe anyone thinks we shouldn't go QB first pick. I think it's a combination of how good Luck and RG3 were as prospects (rare) and Wilson and Kapreneck (sp?) being late picks and having success. Now all the sudden no prospect is franchise worthy unless they are as good a prospect as luck or rg3 and it's easy to get a great QB late in the draft. Smh!!!!!!!


It's the Trent Dilfer effect all over again. A great defensive team wins a Super Bowl with a game management type QB and all the sudden everyone is on the "you don't have to have a great QB to win the big one" band wagon.

Between manzel, bridgewater and Marcus Mariota you have three possible franchise QB's. All have shown on field capable. If they interview well and workout well there is no reason to doubt they could be franchise QB's.

Id take my chances with whichever one of them looks the best after the draft process has run its course. You just can't pass up a chance to take a top QB.

Hervoyel
11-17-2013, 10:46 PM
I can't believe anyone thinks we shouldn't go QB first pick. I think it's a combination of how good Luck and RG3 were as prospects (rare) and Wilson and Kapreneck (sp?) being late picks and having success. Now all the sudden no prospect is franchise worthy unless they are as good a prospect as luck or rg3 and it's easy to get a great QB late in the draft. Smh!!!!!!!


It's the Trent Dilfer effect all over again. A great defensive team wins a Super Bowl with a game management type QB and all the sudden everyone is on the "you don't have to have a great QB to win the big one" band wagon.

Between manzel, bridgewater and Marcus Mariota you have three possible franchise QB's. All have shown on field capable. If they interview well and workout well there is no reason to doubt they could be franchise QB's.

Id take my chances with whichever one of them looks the best after the draft process has run its course. You just can't pass up a chance to take a top QB.


I think it's ridiculous that anyone would think that sticking a rookie "franchise" QB behind our OL is a good idea. Didn't we just go down this road 12 years ago? Every year there are QB's coming out that are going to be great. Most of them aren't and of the three you just listed tell me which one is going to be the Blaine Gabbert or the Byron Leftwich? That will be the one Bob falls in love with most likely.

No, draft OL and do it regularly. This late round "lets get small guys because they fit the zone blocking scheme so well" BS has got to stop. It's time to draft some beasts. It's Munchak/Matthews/Steinkuhler time for the Texans. Go get a real line and then go take a swing at finding the real franchise QB to put behind it.

Mr teX
11-17-2013, 10:56 PM
I think it's ridiculous that anyone would think that sticking a rookie "franchise" QB behind our OL is a good idea. Didn't we just go down this road 12 years ago? Every year there are QB's coming out that are going to be great. Most of them aren't and of the three you just listed tell me which one is going to be the Blaine Gabbert or the Byron Leftwich? That will be the one Bob falls in love with most likely.

No, draft OL and do it regularly. This late round "lets get small guys because they fit the zone blocking scheme so well" BS has got to stop. It's time to draft some beasts. It's Munchak/Matthews/Steinkuhler time for the Texans. Go get a real line and then go take a swing at finding the real franchise QB to put behind it.

You can go get your franchise guy...its not like u have to start him right away.

bhsman
11-17-2013, 10:56 PM
It's the Trent Dilfer effect all over again. A great defensive team wins a Super Bowl with a game management type QB and all the sudden everyone is on the "you don't have to have a great QB to win the big one" band wagon.

Not that I disagree with you about going with a QB, but you could also argue that this is how Tom Brady won his rings, on the back of a great defense. Seems weird to say it now, though. :kitten:

Honoring Earl 34
11-17-2013, 11:01 PM
I think it's ridiculous that anyone would think that sticking a rookie "franchise" QB behind our OL is a good idea. Didn't we just go down this road 12 years ago? Every year there are QB's coming out that are going to be great. Most of them aren't and of the three you just listed tell me which one is going to be the Blaine Gabbert or the Byron Leftwich? That will be the one Bob falls in love with most likely.

No, draft OL and do it regularly. This late round "lets get small guys because they fit the zone blocking scheme so well" BS has got to stop. It's time to draft some beasts. It's Munchak/Matthews/Steinkuhler time for the Texans. Go get a real line and then go take a swing at finding the real franchise QB to put behind it.

If I didn't go OT in the 1st it's because I took Barr . I like Murray in the 3rd with Mathews better than I like a QB in the top 5 . Heck ... I'd take Gabe Jackson G in the 2nd because I'm not really into the ZBS anymore to go with Mathews and Murray .

My favorite QB as far as talent goes is Hundley from UCLA . He may be perfect for the Texans cause he's playing with 3 freshman OL and runs for his life .

Hervoyel
11-18-2013, 08:40 AM
You can go get your franchise guy...its not like u have to start him right away.

Very few teams ever sit him though. Things run too fast in todays NFL to draft a "savior" and then bench him while someone else takes the reigns. The teams that can do that have a quality entrenched starter (Favre/Rogers for example) and we aren't one of those teams.

We'll pick a talented puppy and throw him to the wolves.

Texian
11-18-2013, 08:50 AM
I think it's ridiculous that anyone would think that sticking a rookie "franchise" QB behind our OL is a good idea. Didn't we just go down this road 12 years ago? Every year there are QB's coming out that are going to be great. Most of them aren't and of the three you just listed tell me which one is going to be the Blaine Gabbert or the Byron Leftwich? That will be the one Bob falls in love with most likely.

No, draft OL and do it regularly. This late round "lets get small guys because they fit the zone blocking scheme so well" BS has got to stop. It's time to draft some beasts. It's Munchak/Matthews/Steinkuhler time for the Texans. Go get a real line and then go take a swing at finding the real franchise QB to put behind it.

Why in my mock I have Rd 1 = Johnny Texan and Rd 2 = Brandon Scherff OT, Iowa. The Texans still have no answer to Andrew Luck and until they do expect more of the same.

Rey
11-18-2013, 08:54 AM
I think if we get the top overall pick we are taking bridgewater.

Honoring Earl 34
11-18-2013, 09:53 AM
I think if we get the top overall pick we are taking bridgewater.

Ya know I watched Teddy vs UH and came away thinking he's not the best QB prospect . I wonder what's up with the gloves ? If it's to get a better grip cause he's got small hands see Tyler Wilson .

TexansSeminole
11-18-2013, 10:08 AM
Ya know I watched Teddy vs UH and came away thinking he's not the best QB prospect . I wonder what's up with the gloves ? If it's to get a better grip cause he's got small hands see Tyler Wilson .

My friend said something similar the other day that had me laughing. "I can't take a QB that wears gloves top 5."

Honoring Earl 34
11-18-2013, 10:21 AM
My friend said something similar the other day that had me laughing. "I can't take a QB that wears gloves top 5."

No Mr Mittens part ll :kitten:

mussop
11-18-2013, 08:55 PM
I think it's ridiculous that anyone would think that sticking a rookie "franchise" QB behind our OL is a good idea. Didn't we just go down this road 12 years ago? Every year there are QB's coming out that are going to be great. Most of them aren't and of the three you just listed tell me which one is going to be the Blaine Gabbert or the Byron Leftwich? That will be the one Bob falls in love with most likely.

No, draft OL and do it regularly. This late round "lets get small guys because they fit the zone blocking scheme so well" BS has got to stop. It's time to draft some beasts. It's Munchak/Matthews/Steinkuhler time for the Texans. Go get a real line and then go take a swing at finding the real franchise QB to put behind it.

I think it's ridiculous that anyone would think that sticking a rookie "franchise" QB behind our OL is a good idea. Didn't we just go down this road 12 years ago? Every year there are QB's coming out that are going to be great. Most of them aren't and of the three you just listed tell me which one is going to be the Blaine Gabbert or the Byron Leftwich? That will be the one Bob falls in love with most likely.

No, draft OL and do it regularly. This late round "lets get small guys because they fit the zone blocking scheme so well" BS has got to stop. It's time to draft some beasts. It's Munchak/Matthews/Steinkuhler time for the Texans. Go get a real line and then go take a swing at finding the real franchise QB to put behind it.

So I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. Basically if we don't use our first pick (that's one pick) on a OL then there is no way to make this OL good enough?

You won't find a poster here or anywhere that believes in building the trenches more than me. I want a OL or front seven D players every year early in The draft. But if you don't have one you cannot pass up a franchise QB. They are the rarest and most important commodity a team can have. I doubt I have to explain to you how big a difference it makes for a team to have a franchise QB.

Remember our second round pick is most likely at the top of the second round. We could easily pick up a high quality RT in that area. Quality guards can be had in the early third as well. Also don't forget about free agency. Now factor in that it is highly unlikely that you could get a franchise QB in any of those spots.

I know the risk of drafting QB early. Believe me I know. I was totally against drafting Carr. I wanted J Peppers. But that was a different situation. We had no foundation what so ever on the OL. Now we have a top tier LT and C and a couple of decent young players in Brooks and Quisinbarry. Hell I actually think Newton could possibly be a serviceable LG. possibly!

Add a high second round pick to that and a decent FA and the OL could turn around quickly.

Throw in the fact that manzel and bridgewater are both very good at avoiding the rush and this really is a no brainer if one or both test well AND are available when we pick.

Now if neither is available and or they don't test well then I'm all in on Mathews or one of the other top OL.

steelbtexan
11-18-2013, 09:32 PM
I'm still leaning towards clowney if we stay 34.

I think this defense is missing an edge presence like nobody's business.

Maybe when I get around to looking at other players I'll like another edge player more, but for now I still like clowney.

Even if they moved to a 4-3, Clowney/Watt at DE's with Mitchell and a daft pick at DT = instant pass rush.

I probably would draft Matthews over Clowney, but if the new regime wanted to play 4-3 Clowney would be my pick. Pass rush would be sick.

steelbtexan
11-18-2013, 10:23 PM
So I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. Basically if we don't use our first pick (that's one pick) on a OL then there is no way to make this OL good enough?

You won't find a poster here or anywhere that believes in building the trenches more than me. I want a OL or front seven D players every year early in The draft. But if you don't have one you cannot pass up a franchise QB. They are the rarest and most important commodity a team can have. I doubt I have to explain to you how big a difference it makes for a team to have a franchise QB.

Remember our second round pick is most likely at the top of the second round. We could easily pick up a high quality RT in that area. Quality guards can be had in the early third as well. Also don't forget about free agency. Now factor in that it is highly unlikely that you could get a franchise QB in any of those spots.

I know the risk of drafting QB early. Believe me I know. I was totally against drafting Carr. I wanted J Peppers. But that was a different situation. We had no foundation what so ever on the OL. Now we have a top tier LT and C and a couple of decent young players in Brooks and Quisinbarry. Hell I actually think Newton could possibly be a serviceable LG. possibly!

Add a high second round pick to that and a decent FA and the OL could turn around quickly.

Throw in the fact that manzel and bridgewater are both very good at avoiding the rush and this really is a no brainer if one or both test well AND are available when we pick.

Now if neither is available and or they don't test well then I'm all in on Mathews or one of the other top OL.

I agree with you philosophy. however 3 things make me want to go in a different direction.

1. Clowney is a once in a generation type pass rusher. 2. As Texian said at the top of Scherff,Ogbuehi,Hurst,Hickey should all be available in the 2nd rd and will have long careers.

3. I'm leery of taking a QB in this draft. I would rather use next season to see if Keenum can be the future at QB. If not I like Hogan or Petty in 2015 more than any QB in this yrs daft.

Hervoyel
11-18-2013, 11:12 PM
I just don't see a guy in this draft who is that "probably can't miss" franchise QB. I don't see him. I watched Bridgewater against UH like many of you and I came away very meh on him. Nor do I believe that Manziel is going to pan out like so many here do. I don't think he'll be effective for long in the NFL.

I don't see the next Luck or RGIII waiting on us and so I would prefer we tread water for a year and select the other half of our "bookends" in the form of Matthews. Then we can come back and look at the QB's coming out in 2015.

That's just my opinion. We're going to see what happens one way or the other in the years to come.

mussop
11-18-2013, 11:16 PM
I agree with you philosophy. however 3 things make me want to go in a different direction.

1. Clowney is a once in a generation type pass rusher. 2. As Texian said at the top of Scherff,Ogbuehi,Hurst,Hickey should all be available in the 2nd rd and will have long careers.

3. I'm leery of taking a QB in this draft. I would rather use next season to see if Keenum can be the future at QB. If not I like Hogan or Petty in 2015 more than any QB in this yrs daft.

What's the chances we have a real opportunity to draft either of those guys next year? I'm fine with clowney or Mathews or BPA. Just as long as we don't pass up a franchise QB. Obviously we will know more after the combine.

mussop
11-18-2013, 11:25 PM
I just don't see a guy in this draft who is that "probably can't miss" franchise QB. I don't see him. I watched Bridgewater against UH like many of you and I came away very meh on him. Nor do I believe that Manziel is going to pan out like so many here do. I don't think he'll be effective for long in the NFL.

I don't see the next Luck or RGIII waiting on us and so I would prefer we tread water for a year and select the other half of our "bookends" in the form of Matthews. Then we can come back and look at the QB's coming out in 2015.

That's just my opinion. We're going to see what happens one way or the other in the years to come.

We should of sold out for RG3 like I wanted to. Luck and RG3 were rare talents. They don't come along often. If you are holding out for one of them you are in for a long wait. I don't know if there is a franchise guy in this draft or not. Again we will know more after the combine. At this point this is all there is to be excited about. We have a chance to get a rare talent in clowney or a stud OL In Mathews or maybe just maybe finally a franchise QB. I can't wait to see who our new coach is going to be. It will be fun trying to figure out what he will be looking for.

Man I wish this was week 18.

steelbtexan
11-18-2013, 11:27 PM
What's the chances we have a real opportunity to draft either of those guys next year? I'm fine with clowney or Mathews or BPA. Just as long as we don't pass up a franchise QB. Obviously we will know more after the combine.


The Redskins were able to trade up, the Giants for Eli, Ravens for Flacco etc.... so it can be done. I dont see a QB in this draft that will be as good as Matt Ryan. Forget about a Manning/Brady/Brees/Luck in this draft.

bhsman
11-19-2013, 12:11 AM
We should of sold out for RG3 like I wanted to. Luck and RG3 were rare talents. They don't come along often. If you are holding out for one of them you are in for a long wait. I don't know if there is a franchise guy in this draft or not.

I can't say I agree; RG3 is legit but at the time we had Schaub entering a contract year and would eventually be extended. Giving up the bank for him would mean no Mercilus, no Brooks, no Jones, no Hopkins, and no Swearinger at a minimum (assuming it would cost more to move up from where we were relative to the Redskins).

Again we will know more after the combine. At this point this is all there is to be excited about. We have a chance to get a rare talent in clowney or a stud OL In Mathews or maybe just maybe finally a franchise QB. I can't wait to see who our new coach is going to be. It will be fun trying to figure out what he will be looking for.

Who knows, there could be a guy like Poe who comes out of nowhere. For the moment I say we focus on Clowney as long as we stay in top-3 range, trade-down for Manziel if we get into the 5-8 range and use the extra picks to build the trenches, and if we somehow get the #1 overall we kick back, pop the champagne, and wait for the phone calls. :bender:

Man I wish this was week 18.

No kidding, I'd already been done with my first semester of law school. Only a 15-page paper and hell on earth to go...:kitten:

aussie_texan
11-19-2013, 03:15 AM
I understand the need to add TEs w/ Daniels coming off 2nd major injury on backside of his career and Graham becoming a FA. However an a 2nd or 3nd RD may be a bit of an over reaction. Both Daniels and Graham were 4th RD picks and that's where I've Arthur Lynch, TE, Georgia in my mock

i don't think its an over reaction. Daniels is a top 10 TE when healthy but he hasn't been for a while and is only getting older and is a strong candidate for getting released and to me GG is exactly the worth of a 4th rounder ...JAG.
I would like to see a playmaker at the position.
especially if your going to keep keenum has your starter next year.

Texian
11-19-2013, 10:35 AM
This week 11/19/13 the Houston Texans have the #3 pick in the 2014 NFL Draft.

http://www.gbnreport.com/weeklydraftorder.html

steelbtexan
11-19-2013, 10:44 AM
This week 11/19/13 the Houston Texans have the #3 pick in the 2014 NFL Draft.

http://www.gbnreport.com/weeklydraftorder.html

Fo me it's a toss up between Clowney and Matthews.

Which way would you go?

Or is Johnny Football your pick? I would rather wait until 2015 see if Case is the guy and if he's not pick either Hogan/Petty.

Bulls on Parade
11-19-2013, 11:04 AM
We should of sold out for RG3 like I wanted to. Luck and RG3 were rare talents. They don't come along often. If you are holding out for one of them you are in for a long wait.

mussop, watching RGIII play this season he doesn't look like a rare talent to me. Maybe he's still hesitant to play like he did last year coming off the injury, but he's making a lot of mistakes and the 3-7 Redskins aren't much better than the Texans right now. There is talk of the Redskins cleaning house in the off-season and firing Mike Shanahan.

bhsman
11-19-2013, 11:31 AM
Fo me it's a toss up between Clowney and Matthews.

Which way would you go?

Or is Johnny Football your pick? I would rather wait until 2015 see if Case is the guy and if he's not pick either Hogan/Petty.

Clowney at #3 or trading down a few spots and grabbing Manziel. Either way, you can find good, talented tackles in the high second round.

Texian
11-19-2013, 12:03 PM
Fo me it's a toss up between Clowney and Matthews.

Which way would you go?

Or is Johnny Football your pick? I would rather wait until 2015 see if Case is the guy and if he's not pick either Hogan/Petty.

At this juncture I would go Johnny Football for the simple reasons that at present the Texans have no answer at QB to respond to Andrew Luck. Assuming the Jags will draft Bridgewater or Mariota (and not JF) there is no answer to respond to them either. One thing about Johnny Football, he knows how to respond, JF has to score 50 if the Aggies want a chance to win because their defense is going to give up 40. JF has been pretty good at putting up those winning numbers.

Conventional wisdom says rookie NFL QBs need 19 games starting before you know what you have. So far the jury is out on Keenum and by the results so far that jury could be out for a while. If Case is not the answer, then what? You're another 2-3 years behind the 8 ball. Plus there is no guarantee the Texans will be in this position next year. I say strike when you can when the fire is hot. If the Texans win 6-7 games in 2014, Hogan and Petty could be out of the picture. Hopefully Case turns out to be above average. If that's case you have a QB ready should Manziel stubb his stout toe. If Manziel turns out to be as advertised and Case performs well, Keenum in a best case scenario might be worth a Carson Palmer ( a 1) trade or an Alex Smith (a 2 and 3) trade. Either way you've protected yourself and made sure that you've a QB who can compete with Luck, Bridgewater or Mariota.

Texian
11-19-2013, 12:08 PM
I can't say I agree; RG3 is legit but at the time we had Schaub entering a contract year and would eventually be extended. Giving up the bank for him would mean no Mercilus, no Brooks, no Jones, no Hopkins, and no Swearinger at a minimum (assuming it would cost more to move up from where we were relative to the Redskins).



Who knows, there could be a guy like Poe who comes out of nowhere. For the moment I say we focus on Clowney as long as we stay in top-3 range, trade-down for Manziel if we get into the 5-8 range and use the extra picks to build the trenches, and if we somehow get the #1 overall we kick back, pop the champagne, and wait for the phone calls. :bender:



No kidding, I'd already been done with my first semester of law school. Only a 15-page paper and hell on earth to go...:kitten:

The Texans could've have included Schaub, Winston, Vickers, Ryans and Jones along with draft picks as part of deal to move.....just saying. :)

Let's be clear, Schaub was Kubiak's guy, Gary had invested 2 twos to get Matt. To go all in for RGIII would mean Gary would have to admit failure or that he had just made a 2 twos mistake. That wasn't going to happen. Why? Because we know Gary Kubiak is not Jimmy Johnson.

Corrosion
11-19-2013, 01:29 PM
Let's be clear, Schaub was Kubiak's guy, Gary had invested 2 twos to get Matt. To go all in for RGIII would mean Gary would have to admit failure or that he had just made a 2 twos mistake. That wasn't going to happen. Why? Because we know Gary Kubiak is not Jimmy Johnson.

More like Schaub & his contract had outlived their usefulness .... not so much a mistake at the time they made the deal because Schaub did perform well for several seasons.

I don't think anyone expected Schaub to go from serviceable to historically bad. No one expected him to put the team on his shoulders either - all he had to do was manage the game & take what the defense gave. They built the team around his deficiencies with a strong defense and running game.

Honoring Earl 34
11-19-2013, 01:49 PM
At this juncture I would go Johnny Football for the simple reasons that at present the Texans have no answer at QB to respond to Andrew Luck. Assuming the Jags will draft Bridgewater or Mariota (and not JF) there is no answer to respond to them either. One thing about Johnny Football, he knows how to respond, JF has to score 50 if the Aggies want a chance to win because their defense is going to give up 40. JF has been pretty good at putting up those winning numbers.

Conventional wisdom says rookie NFL QBs need 19 games starting before you know what you have. So far the jury is out on Keenum and by the results so far that jury could be out for a while. If Case is not the answer, then what? You're another 2-3 years behind the 8 ball. Plus there is no guarantee the Texans will be in this position next year. I say strike when you can when the fire is hot. If the Texans win 6-7 games in 2014, Hogan and Petty could be out of the picture. Hopefully Case turns out to be above average. If that's case you have a QB ready should Manziel stubb his stout toe. If Manziel turns out to be as advertised and Case performs well, Keenum in a best case scenario might be worth a Carson Palmer ( a 1) trade or an Alex Smith (a 2 and 3) trade. Either way you've protected yourself and made sure that you've a QB who can compete with Luck, Bridgewater or Mariota.

Nobody knew you liked Johnny Football . :spit:

I would bet JF goes closer to the top of the 2nd than the top of the 1st .

Corrosion
11-19-2013, 02:50 PM
Nobody knew you liked Johnny Football . :spit:

I would bet JF goes closer to the top of the 2nd than the top of the 1st .

Man I don't know .... Is he a huge gamble ? Absolutely.

Will some QB needy team make that gamble early .... I'm almost certain of it.


What he's able to do is awful special , I just wonder how it translates to the NFL , then I watch Keenum escape pressure and Manziel is much better in that aspect ... It could work.

Manziel would probably be best suited to another year in college where he could work on reading defenses among other things ... but its hard to leave that kinda $$$ on the table and it will be just as hard for NFL teams to leave that type of potential for someone behind them to take.


What if he wins back to back Heisman trophy's ...

Honoring Earl 34
11-19-2013, 03:43 PM
Man I don't know .... Is he a huge gamble ? Absolutely.

Will some QB needy team make that gamble early .... I'm almost certain of it.


What he's able to do is awful special , I just wonder how it translates to the NFL , then I watch Keenum escape pressure and Manziel is much better in that aspect ... It could work.

Manziel would probably be best suited to another year in college where he could work on reading defenses among other things ... but its hard to leave that kinda $$$ on the table and it will be just as hard for NFL teams to leave that type of potential for someone behind them to take.


What if he wins back to back Heisman trophy's ...


I think guys like Johnny get penalized because of the height . This will hurt Boyd and Murray also . Guys like Mariota and Hundley will go higher because of their size but they don't have the experience as these guys .

If I was going to buy stock in a prospect hoping to put a little in and make a bunch it would be with Hundley . If I was going to take a guy trying to copy Seattle and Russell Wilson in the 3rd , it would be Aarron Murray .

Texian
11-19-2013, 04:24 PM
More like Schaub & his contract had outlived their usefulness .... not so much a mistake at the time they made the deal because Schaub did perform well for several seasons.

I don't think anyone expected Schaub to go from serviceable to historically bad. No one expected him to put the team on his shoulders either - all he had to do was manage the game & take what the defense gave. They built the team around his deficiencies with a strong defense and running game.

The reason I wanted the Texans to go all in for RGIII had nothing to do with Schaub and everything to do with Andrew Luck. I felt at the time if the Texans didn't do something to counter the Luck draft pick it wouldn't be long before the Colts were back a top of the division. I still think this will be the case. Schaub at best was a short term fire wall. It now appears the fire wall has been breached and the Texans have assumed the position of healthcare.gov and they still haven't done anything to respond to the Andrew Luck draft pick.

The way things stand today the Texans again will have to borrow from 2015, 2016 and 2017 to meet the minimum 2014 financial obligations. One can only imagine how much the mortgaged will be and how BAD it will be if Kubiak gets another "Hot Seat" reprieve. The Colts begin 2014 $40 million under the cap.

mussop
11-19-2013, 05:39 PM
I think guys like Johnny get penalized because of the height . This will hurt Boyd and Murray also . Guys like Mariota and Hundley will go higher because of their size but they don't have the experience as these guys .

If I was going to buy stock in a prospect hoping to put a little in and make a bunch it would be with Hundley . If I was going to take a guy trying to copy Seattle and Russell Wilson in the 3rd , it would be Aarron Murray .

And what does Hundley have other than slightly better measureables over Manzel?

Texian
11-19-2013, 06:02 PM
Nobody knew you liked Johnny Football . :spit:

I would bet JF goes closer to the top of the 2nd than the top of the 1st .

#1 Points Responsible For per Game = Johnny Manziel http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/747

#1 Points Responsible For = Johnny Manziel http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/692

#1 Completion Percentage = Johnny Manziel http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/755

#3 Passing Efficiency = Johnny Manziel http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/8

#3 Passing TDs = Johnny Manziel http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/751

Honoring Earl 34
11-19-2013, 06:18 PM
And what does Hundley have other than slightly better measureables over Manzel?

#1 Points Responsible per Game = Johnny Manziel http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/747

#1 Points Responsible For = Johnny Manziel http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/692

#1 Completion Percentage = Johnny Manziel http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/755

#3 Passing Efficency = Johnny Manziel http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/8

#3 Passing TDs = Johnny Manziel http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/751

A draft is a projection to the next level , that's it . Hundley is a big , athletic , smart guy with a big arm . Johnny Football is a good player but the projection is how will he do in the pros . Do y'all think JF will be held in the same regard as Michael Vick ? That's the only 6 foot QB I know who went high in the 1st round .

Corrosion
11-19-2013, 07:51 PM
A draft is a projection to the next level , that's it . Hundley is a big , athletic , smart guy with a big arm . Johnny Football is a good player but the projection is how will he do in the pros . Do y'all think JF will be held in the same regard as Michael Vick ? That's the only 6 foot QB I know who went high in the 1st round .

To be honest , of all the QB's who may go in the first year this round I like Hundley the least ....

I think Manziel has the highest upside and the biggest bust potential.

Murray is probably under rated by most and I probably under value McCarron ....

Bridgewater is probably over rated .... and I dunno what to think about Mariota.

Honoring Earl 34
11-19-2013, 08:35 PM
To be honest , of all the QB's who may go in the first year this round I like Hundley the least ....

I think Manziel has the highest upside and the biggest bust potential.

Murray is probably under rated by most and I probably under value McCarron ....

Bridgewater is probably over rated .... and I dunno what to think about Mariota.

Hundley is a red shirt soph playing behind 3 freshman OL . The talent is there IMO , he just has to make things happen this year . If he were to go back to UCLA with a year under the OLs belt , and with the talent on that team , Hundley would be the #1 pick in 2015 .

If short QBs have big hands , it's not that big a deal . Russell Wilson and Drew Brees both have 10 inch hands . So does Andrew Luck and Johnny Football has big hands and wears a size 15 shoe .

aussie_texan
11-19-2013, 09:05 PM
Fo me it's a toss up between Clowney and Matthews.

Which way would you go?

Or is Johnny Football your pick? I would rather wait until 2015 see if Case is the guy and if he's not pick either Hogan/Petty.
^^^^^
this!!! but i would include along side hogan/petty hundley and winston

bhsman
11-19-2013, 09:23 PM
Hundley is a QB in the mold of Cam Newton in that they're both built like linebackers playing quarterback. I second the notion that he return for another year.

Texian
11-19-2013, 10:15 PM
Hundley is a red shirt soph playing behind 3 freshman OL . The talent is there IMO , he just has to make things happen this year . If he were to go back to UCLA with a year under the OLs belt , and with the talent on that team , Hundley would be the #1 pick in 2015 .

If short QBs have big hands , it's not that big a deal . Russell Wilson and Drew Brees both have 10 inch hands . So does Andrew Luck and Johnny Football has big hands and wears a size 15 shoe .

From the 3 games I have watched Hundley I have seen nothing that says he's an NFL QB and everything that says he should return to school and I think he will after he reads his NFL evaluation.

Hundley is a QB in the mold of Cam Newton in that they're both built like linebackers playing quarterback. I second the notion that he return for another year.

Reminiscent of the many things said about Logan Thomas with the same comparisons to Cam Newton. And we see how that turned out.

Texian
11-19-2013, 11:23 PM
A draft is a projection to the next level , that's it . Hundley is a big , athletic , smart guy with a big arm . Johnny Football is a good player but the projection is how will he do in the pros . Do y'all think JF will be held in the same regard as Michael Vick ? That's the only 6 foot QB I know who went high in the 1st round .

While Michael Vick a redshirt Soph declaring for the draft compares to what Manziel will likely do. Michael Vick wasn't even close to accomplishing what Manziel has done on the football field so far.

As a Freshman Vick threw for 1840 yds, completed 58% of his passes, rushed for 580 yards, 12 Passing TDs, 5 INTs and 8 Rushing TDs.

Freshman Manziel threw for 3706 yds, completed 68% of his passes, rushed for 1410 yards, 26 Passing TDs, 9 INTs, 21 Rushing TDs.

Manziel threw for more yards as a Freshman than Vick threw for as a Freshman and Sophomore combined 3706 vs 3279; Rushing yards 1410 vs 1216; Passing TDs 26 vs 21; Rushing TDs 21 vs 17. From a production standpoint, Manziel is twice as good as Michael Vick, if not more.

TexansSeminole
11-19-2013, 11:37 PM
While Michael Vick a redshirt Soph declaring for the draft compares to what Manziel will likely do. Michael Vick wasn't even close to accomplishing what Manziel has done on the football field so far.

As a Freshman Vick threw for 1840 yds, completed 58% of his passes, rushed for 580 yards, 12 Passing TDs, 5 INTs and 8 Rushing TDs.

Freshman Manziel threw for 3706 yds, completed 68% of his passes, rushed for 1410 yards, 26 Passing TDs, 9 INTs, 21 Rushing TDs.

Manziel threw for more yards as a Freshman than Vick threw for as a Freshman and Sophomore combined 3706 vs 3279; Rushing yards 1410 vs 1216; Passing TDs 26 vs 21; Rushing TDs 21 vs 17. From a production standpoint, Manziel is twice as good as Michael Vick, if not more.

Michael Vick freshman season: 182 passing attempts, threw for 11.3 yards per attempt, 131 rushing attempts

Johnny Manziel freshman season: 434 passing attempts, threw for 8.1 yards per attempt, 201 rushing attempts.

You're embarrassing man.

Texian
11-19-2013, 11:44 PM
Michael Vick freshman season: 182 passing attempts, 131 rushing attempts

Johnny Manziel freshman season: 434 passing attempts, 201 rushing attempts.

You're embarrassing man.

So without trying to embarrass me or you, who had the better Freshman season? Vick accounted for 20 TDs and Manziel 47 TDs. and why are Manziel's Freshman numbers 2X more Vick's Freshman and Sophomore numbers combined?

I know you're a Manziel hater, so it might be best for you to just ignore me instead of trolling all my Manziel comments. Either that or just get over it.

TexansSeminole
11-19-2013, 11:48 PM
Just need to expose your choice number's comparisons. They are embarrassing. Comparing total passing yards when one player has nearly 250% of the passing attempts as the other. Also with a lower yards per attempt, but of course you didn't include that.

Carry on with your nut hugging. That's what your last 50 posts have done, and the next 50 will likely be the same.

Texian
11-19-2013, 11:57 PM
Just need to expose your choice number's comparisons. They are embarrassing. Comparing total passing yards when one player has nearly 250% of the passing attempts as the other. Also with a lower yards per attempt, but of course you didn't include that.

Carry on with your nut hugging. That's what your last 50 posts have done, and the next 50 will likely be the same.

Don't hate me cause I like Manziel. Not everyone is going to be a Manziel hater like you. The only one embarrassed may be you. Sorry I am not embarrassed.

As a Freshman Manziel accounted for 47 TDs, Vick for 20 TDs . Are you embarrassed for Vick?

With 2 games to go Manziel has accounted for 86 TDs in 2 seasons, with 2 full seasons Vick has accounted for 38 TDs and Vick was the #1 Draft pick.

And regarding my statement, Michael Vick wasn't even close to accomplishing what Manziel has done on the football field so far. TRUE

Simmer Down - Donna Summer

TexansSeminole
11-20-2013, 12:02 AM
There's a difference between being a hater and correcting your choice statistics. Just like when you neglected to mention the 3 interceptions he had in the previous game.

Look at your last 50 posts if you want to see what a troll looks like. Basically, all you do is find posts about Manziel and then reply about how is he "Johnny Texan" the god of football. It's goofy.

All I have done is add context to your biased statistical posts.

Texian
11-20-2013, 12:10 AM
There's a difference between being a hater and correcting your choice statistics. Just like when you neglected to mention the 3 interceptions he had in the previous game.

Look at your last 50 posts if you want to see what a troll looks like. Basically, all you do is find posts about Manziel and then reply about how is he "Johnny Texan" the god of football. It's goofy.

All I have done is add context to your biased statistical posts.

Go back and check all the post and find out how many were part of a conversation, and how many you interrupted, butted in the conversation. When you find out report back. There's no doubt, your a Mansiel hater. Why, I have no idea but I expect you will be at odds with anyone who does like Johnny or doesn't write their Manziel comments or present their Manziel numbers exactly as you want them posted.

TexansSeminole
11-20-2013, 12:25 AM
Go back and check all the post and find out how many were part of a conversation, and how many you interrupted, butted in the conversation. When you find out report back. There's no doubt, your a Mansiel hater. Why, I have no idea but I expect you will be at odds with anyone who does like Johnny or doesn't write their comments or present their numbers exactly as you want them posted.

Sorry if passing attempts, yards per attempt and passer rating don't mean anything to you. God forbid people insert context to your posts when you don't provide it.

I'll leave you to your JF penis caressing.

bhsman
11-20-2013, 01:26 AM
Manziel has more passing attempts because he is a better passer, though? He's more proficient at it than Vick was, so he passed more often. He's probably the best passer in the class after Bridgewater, looking at stats and competition. His talent for running is key, but I don't think he's quite the same as Vick's 'Check read and run' style, or at least has improved upon this from his freshman year.

It's not a zero-sum player where a proficiency for passing or rushing means deficiency in the other; Manziel is just adept at both.

FWIW I'm an LSU fan so I'm the LAST person who wants to see Manziel do well right now. :thisbig: Surprise, surprise, it IS possible to like Manziel without being an Aggie.

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2013, 07:34 AM
Don't hate me cause I like Manziel. Not everyone is going to be a Manziel hater like you. The only one embarrassed may be you. Sorry I am not embarrassed.

As a Freshman Manziel accounted for 47 TDs, Vick for 20 TDs . Are you embarrassed for Vick?

With 2 games to go Manziel has accounted for 86 TDs in 2 seasons, with 2 full seasons Vick has accounted for 38 TDs and Vick was the #1 Draft pick.

And regarding my statement, Michael Vick wasn't even close to accomplishing what Manziel has done on the football field so far. TRUE

Simmer Down - Donna Summer

Michael Vick made his money running wild vs Nebraska his frshman year in the championship game . Didn't Gino Torretta and Danny Wuerfell win Heismans and put up big numbers ?

The funny thing to me is , why promote one guy so steadfastly :heart: , we can't pick him . All we are doing is talking players and killing time by trying to guess who the Texans need or will take .

Corrosion
11-20-2013, 08:50 AM
Hundley is a QB in the mold of Cam Newton in that they're both built like linebackers playing quarterback. I second the notion that he return for another year.

6'3" 210 is built like a linebacker ?!

Texian
11-20-2013, 08:54 AM
Sorry if passing attempts, yards per attempt and passer rating don't mean anything to you. God forbid people insert context to your posts when you don't provide it.

I'll leave you to your JF penis caressing.

I'm going to do you a favor here and put you on ignore. When you're capable of having a discussion without the juvenile frat boy references and more of an adult conversation have someone message me and maybe one day we can continue our conversation.

Michael Vick made his money running wild vs Nebraska his frshman year in the championship game . Didn't Gino Torretta and Danny Wuerfell win Heismans and put up big numbers ?

The funny thing to me is , why promote one guy so steadfastly :heart: , we can't pick him . All we are doing is talking players and killing time by trying to guess who the Texans need or will take .

I thought that is exactly what I was doing.

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2013, 08:56 AM
6'3" 210 is built like a linebacker ?!

I'm going to do you a favor here and put you on ignore. When you're capable of having a discussion without the juvenile frat boy references and more of an adult conversation have someone message me and maybe one day we can continue our conversation.



I thought that is exactly what I was doing.

I bet Hundley goes 6'3 235 lbs .

Texian ... we're talikng players , you're talking player . :clown:

Texian
11-20-2013, 08:59 AM
Texian ... we're talikng players , you're talking player . :clown:

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2253719&postcount=2

I can't be responsible for what posts you selectively choose to read.

Did you not ask......" Do y'all think JF will be held in the same regard as Michael Vick ? That's the only 6 foot QB I know who went high in the 1st round ."

I thought you were looking for a response or was this strictly rhetorical?

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2013, 09:04 AM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2253719&postcount=2

I can't be responsible for what posts you selectively choose to read.

It doesn't matter to me , I think it's funny . My point on JF is how he will be viewed by the NFL and that is he'll get penalized for not being 6'4 .

This is why the poster said Hundley was built like a LB.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_404h/2010-2019/Wires/Online/2013-11-15/AP/Images/Washington%20UCLA%20Football.JPEG-0cda9.jpg

htownfan32
11-20-2013, 09:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8xVIgWEBY


That is all.

bhsman
11-20-2013, 09:24 AM
I think we're focusing on Manziel mostly because he:

1) Plays the position of quarterback

2) He's very, very, very good at it on the college level and is being evaluated for his work there

3) He's probably a first-round selection, whether by us or someone else.

I don't see the problem in discussing him than the people who want to talk about us drafting Jake Matthews. By comparison to the 'safe' pick in Matthews, Manziel generates just more discussion due to his position, his history, and how the media portrays him.

Texian
11-20-2013, 09:36 AM
It's been reported that Nick Saban is leaving Alabama for the University of Texas. Those in the know say it is a done deal. Saban's wife Terry has been spotted in Austin with a real estate agent. When Saban was reached for comment and asked why he was leaving Alabama, he responded, Manziel, I have to go somewhere I never have to worry about playing Johnny Manziel ever again. Every time I play him he takes 10 years off my life'

TexansSeminole
11-20-2013, 11:02 AM
Manziel has more passing attempts because he is a better passer, though? He's more proficient at it than Vick was, so he passed more often. He's probably the best passer in the class after Bridgewater, looking at stats and competition. His talent for running is key, but I don't think he's quite the same as Vick's 'Check read and run' style, or at least has improved upon this from his freshman year.

It's not a zero-sum player where a proficiency for passing or rushing means deficiency in the other; Manziel is just adept at both.

FWIW I'm an LSU fan so I'm the LAST person who wants to see Manziel do well right now. :thisbig: Surprise, surprise, it IS possible to like Manziel without being an Aggie.

Manziel is undoubtedly a better passer than Vick was coming out of college. So is every single one of these prospects we are talking about. That wasn't my point, my point was to add context to a post that had none. He didn't run even close to the same offense and it was a different era. It was 15 years ago. His two year passing attempts total is less than what these guys do in 1 year. The game has changed in 15 years. Nearly all prospects are more advanced in passing concepts now than they were 15 years ago.

Michael Vick was a developmental passing prospect. He wasn't asked to pass a lot in college because they had a nice running game in their scheme and it won them games, got them to a championship. He was efficient enough for coaches to believe that they could develop him. He was drafted where he was drafted because he was a 6'1" 210 pound quarterback that ran a 4.33 and posted a 38" vertical at his combine. He was extremely explosive in a time where quarterbacks like him were rare. He also didn't have red flags.

My whole point was to show that making choice statistical comparison is a weak way to make an argument. Had Texian been fair about the way he argued his point, I would have taken a different approach to my response. But if we are just going to see poor comparisons, I'll come right behind and add context to them when needed to make for better comparison.

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 01:05 PM
While Michael Vick a redshirt Soph declaring for the draft compares to what Manziel will likely do. Michael Vick wasn't even close to accomplishing what Manziel has done on the football field so far.

As a Freshman Vick threw for 1840 yds, completed 58% of his passes, rushed for 580 yards, 12 Passing TDs, 5 INTs and 8 Rushing TDs.

Freshman Manziel threw for 3706 yds, completed 68% of his passes, rushed for 1410 yards, 26 Passing TDs, 9 INTs, 21 Rushing TDs.

Manziel threw for more yards as a Freshman than Vick threw for as a Freshman and Sophomore combined 3706 vs 3279; Rushing yards 1410 vs 1216; Passing TDs 26 vs 21; Rushing TDs 21 vs 17. From a production standpoint, Manziel is twice as good as Michael Vick, if not more.

Completely different styles of offense on those teams. I hate when people compare numbers in a vacuum. Offense is completely different nowadays and comparing stats to 15 years ago is absurd.

Graham Harrell in his first year as a starter (RS So.) accounted for 4500 yards and 40 TD's.

Manziel in his first year as a starter (RS Fr.) accounted for 5100 yards and 47 TD's.

Advantage Manziel, but not a huge difference.

Graham Harrell in his second year accounted for 5600 yards and 52 TD's.

Manziel in his 2nd year thus far has accounted for 3900 yards and 39 TD's.

Advantage neither. Manziel will probably get close to those numbers with 3 games left.

The point is Graham Harrell didn't do a thing in the NFL and wasn't half the NFL QB that Vick has been. So comparing their college numbers is ridiculous. These wide open spread offenses put up huge numbers, but using those numbers to project NFL success is absurd.

bhsman
11-20-2013, 01:43 PM
I can't help but feel that you are reaching a bit on that analogy.

EDIT: Manziel compared favorably to Wilson here (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000285071/article/johnny-manziel-can-be-better-than-russell-wilson-scout-says)

Texian
11-20-2013, 02:52 PM
Completely different styles of offense on those teams. I hate when people compare numbers in a vacuum. Offense is completely different nowadays and comparing stats to 15 years ago is absurd.

Graham Harrell in his first year as a starter (RS So.) accounted for 4500 yards and 40 TD's.

Manziel in his first year as a starter (RS Fr.) accounted for 5100 yards and 47 TD's.

Advantage Manziel, but not a huge difference.

Graham Harrell in his second year accounted for 5600 yards and 52 TD's.

Manziel in his 2nd year thus far has accounted for 3900 yards and 39 TD's.

Advantage neither. Manziel will probably get close to those numbers with 3 games left.

The point is Graham Harrell didn't do a thing in the NFL and wasn't half the NFL QB that Vick has been. So comparing their college numbers is ridiculous. These wide open spread offenses put up huge numbers, but using those numbers to project NFL success is absurd.

I could go on about why we differ but I will try to be succinct.

One, there is not that much difference in the game of 15 years ago. I understand if you were 10 yrs old 15 years ago why you would think so.

To put things in perspective Graham played for Mike Leach. Anyone familiar with a Mike Leach offense knows if they ran the ball 10 times that was a lot. For those not familiar the offense was known as the dink and dunk, the gun and shoot, the Air Raid Offense.

Manziel plays in a Art Briles offense, the same offense that RGIII played in, the same offense the Washington Redskins adopted after drafting RGIII. So if you hate people who compare numbers in a vacuum, don't look in the mirror.

TexansSeminole
11-20-2013, 02:56 PM
One, there is not that much difference in the game of 15 years ago. I understand if you were 10 yrs old 15 years ago why you would think so

Lol, what an oblivious and complete *******.

Ever heard of research? People use that to discuss the past. Familiarize yourself with it.

And lol @ the Redskins adopting Art Briles offense. What in the world are you talking about?

Texian
11-20-2013, 03:08 PM
Mike Leach and his offense got to Texas Tech around 2000. Mike Vick left college in 2001. Comparing Vicks numbers of that time period is absurd but comparing Harrell stats from the same offense of that time period is not?

If you have an understanding of the offenses then a comparison is not ridiculous. To those who don't understand say a Leach offense then yes it could appear ridiculous to compare them. Like I said, NFL teams didn't shy away from RGIII and Art Briles offense, on the other hand NFL teams didn't want much to do with any QB in a Leach offense. Manziel is an offense that is far more comparable to an Art Briles offense and far removed from a Mike Leach offense. In fact the offense Vick ran is far more similar to the Offense Manziel runs and nothing similar to Mike Leach and Graham Harrell's offense run at Texas Tech.

Texian
11-20-2013, 03:11 PM
Lol, what an oblivious and complete *******.

Ever heard of research? People use that to discuss the past. Familiarize yourself with it.

And lol @ the Redskins adopting Art Briles offense. What in the world are you talking about?

You were 10 years old, what would you know? I know you think you know it all but you don't....and please stop trolling.

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 03:32 PM
Lol, what an oblivious and complete *******.

Ever heard of research? People use that to discuss the past. Familiarize yourself with it.

And lol @ the Redskins adopting Art Briles offense. What in the world are you talking about?

LOL no doubt.

The Redskins run the Shanahan offense with daddy at HC and Kyle at OC. The only thing they've adopted from Briles is some pistol stuff that a lot of teams in the league are doing now (including Kubiak).

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 03:37 PM
Like I said, NFL teams didn't shy away from RGIII and Art Briles offense, on the other hand NFL teams didn't want much to do with any QB in a Leach offense. Manziel is an offense that is far more comparable to an Art Briles offense and far removed from a Mike Leach offense. In fact the offense Vick ran is far more similar to the Offense Manziel runs and nothing similar to Mike Leach and Graham Harrell's offense run at Texas Tech.

What? Do you know who Leach's co-offensive coordinator was at Oklahoma? That's right...Kevin Sumlin. Sumlin learned that offense under Leach and took it to UH when he replaced Briles. The only reason you seem to think they are different is because Leach loves to throw the ball while Briles and Sumlin are more balanced. Those are different tendencies, not offensive styles.

Have you watched Virginia Tech play offense in the last 10 years? Because their offense hasn't changed much. Vick lined up in shotgun maybe 20% of the time when he played there. That's nothing similar to modern day spread.

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2013, 03:41 PM
You were 10 years old, what would you know? I know you think you know it all but you don't....and please stop trolling.

Art Briles came from Tech and Sumlin from OU before they got to UH . They were never there together so it's each of their version of the spread . Who started the spread offense ?

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 03:46 PM
So if you hate people who compare numbers in a vacuum, don't look in the mirror.

Also, you completely missed my point on the Harrell/Manziel/Vick comparison.

My point was that comparing Manziel's stats to Vick's don't make him a better player. Harrell had much better stats than Vick and was nowhere near as good. Stats are meaningless when projecting these modern day spread QB's.

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2013, 03:46 PM
LOL no doubt.

The Redskins run the Shanahan offense with daddy at HC and Kyle at OC. The only thing they've adopted is some pistol stuff that a lot of teams in the league are doing now (including Kubiak).

Cam ran a sprint draw play the other night . Teams are now ok with putting different looks in the playbook to keep DCs on their toes .

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2013, 03:50 PM
Also, you completely missed my point on the Harrell/Manziel/Vick comparison.

My point was that comparing Manziel's stats to Vick's don't make him a better player. Harrell had much better stats than Vick and was nowhere near as good. Stats are meaningless when projecting these modern day spread QB's.

Yep ... you can have all the talent and numbers but you never know how they'll react when hit in the mouth in the NFL . That's where I think JF has an advantage because he is one fiery dude . I think Murray also because they've had to be tough .

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 03:50 PM
Cam ran a sprint draw play the other night . Teams are now ok with putting different looks in the playbook to keep DCs on their toes .

Haha not what I meant. I should have clarified.

Texian is saying that Shanahan drafted RGIII and then started running Briles offense from Baylor. That's simply not true. He runs the same offense he's always run, but like many coaches, he has copied a lot of spread concepts and incorporated them into his playbook in some ways.

Washington isn't running the "Briles" offense. Far from it.

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2013, 03:54 PM
Haha not what I meant. I should have clarified.

Texian is saying that Shanahan drafted RGIII and then started running Briles offense from Baylor. That's simply not true. He runs the same offense he's always run, but like many coaches, he has copied a lot of spread concepts and incorporated them into his playbook in some ways.

Washington isn't the "Briles" offense. Far from it.

I knew what you meant , I was thinking of the stale bread offense of the Texans and Skins and how it would kill Gary to incorperate something like a spread .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_offense

mussop
11-20-2013, 04:25 PM
The one thing people need to get out of their minds is that Manzel is just another take off and run guy. Sure he runs some on designed plays and occasionally takes off when things break down. But he doesn't just tuck it and run at the first sign of trouble. That's not who he is. His eyes are always down field.

I'm not worried about him getting hurt either. He doesn't have much history of it and he's pretty good at not taking big hits.

Exascor
11-20-2013, 04:30 PM
The one thing people need to get out of their minds is that Manzel is just another take off and run guy. Sure he runs some on designed plays and occasionally takes off when things break down. But he doesn't just tuck it and run at the first sign of trouble. That's not who he is. His eyes are always down field.

I'm not worried about him getting hurt either. He doesn't have much history of it and he's pretty good at not taking big hits.

My concern with him is the times (seems to happen 1-2 a game) he chucks the ball like it's a Hail Mary to Evans into triple coverage. If we draft Manziel we need to draft a 6ft 10in tight end to go with him for his "oh crap" plays.

mussop
11-20-2013, 04:36 PM
My concern with him is the times (seems to happen 1-2 a game) he chucks the ball like it's a Hail Mary to Evans into triple coverage. If we draft Manziel we need to draft a 6ft 10in tight end to go with him for his "oh crap" plays.

Yeh that's the one thing that worries me the most about him. You can't make those throws in the NFL. Hopefully that can be coached out of him.

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 04:49 PM
The one thing people need to get out of their minds is that Manzel is just another take off and run guy. Sure he runs some on designed plays and occasionally takes off when things break down. But he doesn't just tuck it and run at the first sign of trouble. That's not who he is. His eyes are always down field.

I'm not worried about him getting hurt either. He doesn't have much history of it and he's pretty good at not taking big hits.

My thing with Manziel is the same thing I had with Griffin. The offense sets everything up for you. The system is designed to create mismatches that most teams are not equipped to handle. You usually know which mismatch that is before the play and do very little reading of defenses. The coach and the system do everything for you (hence the looking to the sideline before every snap).

You may not worry about him getting hurt, but if he keeps up that style of play he will eventually. His best play is outside of the pocket and teams will see that and try to take it away. Teams have kept Griffin in the pocket this year and he's nowhere near as effective.

Texian
11-20-2013, 05:42 PM
Back to School: How Mike Shanahan Is Using RG3's College Offense With the Redskins

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/36841/back-to-school-how-mike-shanahan-is-using-rg3s-college-offense-with-the-redskins

Texian
11-20-2013, 05:54 PM
Manziel Offense = rushing attempts 533; Passing attempts 492

Vick Offense = rushing attempts 570; Passing Attempts 226

Harrell Offense = Rushing Attempts 303; Passing Attempts 604

Vick and Manziel ran a more balanced O and compare more favorably to each other than they do to Harrell. The biggest difference between Manziel's and Vick's style is Manziel runs a hurry up no huddle O and Vick did not. The primary difference in number of snap count. The primary difference in the number of passing attempts between Vick and Manziel is because of almost a 20% difference in completion percentage. Vick = 56% Manziel 73%. If you're completing more than 70% of your passes you're going to throw more.

infantrycak
11-20-2013, 06:00 PM
72% rushing is not a balanced offense and 66% passing is closer to balanced but also lopsided.

Exascor
11-20-2013, 06:01 PM
Manziel Offense = rushing attempts 533; Passing attempts 492

Vick Offense = rushing attempts 570; Passing Attempts 226

Harrell Offense = Rushing Attempts 303; Passing Attempts 604

Vick and Manziel ran a more balanced O and compare more favorably to each other than they do to Harrell. The biggest difference between Manziel's and Vick's style is Manziel runs a hurry up no huddle O and Vick did not. The primary difference in number of snap count. The primary difference in the number of passing attempts between Vick and Manziel is because of almost a 20% difference in completion percentage. Vick = 56% Manziel 73%. If you're completing more than 70% of your passes you're going to throw more.

Honest question: how many rushing attempts were from the QB? If the QB makes a huge chunk of the rushing attempts then that shifts the balance some for me.

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 06:14 PM
Manziel Offense = rushing attempts 533; Passing attempts 492

Vick Offense = rushing attempts 570; Passing Attempts 226

Harrell Offense = Rushing Attempts 303; Passing Attempts 604

Vick and Manziel ran a more balanced O and compare more favorably to each other than they do to Harrell. The biggest difference between Manziel's and Vick's style is Manziel runs a hurry up no huddle O and Vick did not. The primary difference in number of snap count. The primary difference in the number of passing attempts between Vick and Manziel is because of almost a 20% difference in completion percentage. Vick = 56% Manziel 73%. If you're completing more than 70% of your passes you're going to throw more.

You still haven't understood the analogy I was creating.

Harrell and Manziel played in the same style of offense. One is pass heavy and one is more balanced. But it's still the same structure of offense. It's a spread offense.

Vick played in a run heavy offense that was not structured at all like a spread. It was a lot like the Alabama offense of recent years. It's a pro style offense.

You're trying to compare the Oregon and Stanford offenses and say they're similar because they both run a lot. Simply not accurate.

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 06:27 PM
Honest question: how many rushing attempts were from the QB? If the QB makes a huge chunk of the rushing attempts then that shifts the balance some for me.

First year as a starter with QB runs subtracted...

2012 Manziel = 332 rush, 492 pass = 60% pass

2006 Harrell = 220 rush, 655 pass = 74% pass

1999 Vick = 474 rush, 227 pass = 32% pass

Texian
11-20-2013, 06:35 PM
Honest question: how many rushing attempts were from the QB? If the QB makes a huge chunk of the rushing attempts then that shifts the balance some for me.

Vick Rushing Attempts = 113

Harrell Rushing Attempts = 35

Manziel Rushing Attempts = 201

Texian
11-20-2013, 06:46 PM
You still haven't understood the analogy I was creating.

The reason your analogy is not making any sense is because the original comment that Manziel as a Freshman had more production than Mike Vick had as a Freshman and sophomore combined and Mick Vick was a number 1 draft pick. As much as you dissect and find excuses to discredit Manziel's production over Vick it doesn't change the fact that in 1 year Manziel put up twice the numbers Mike Vick did in two years. It's still pretty amazing.

bhsman
11-20-2013, 06:50 PM
What kind of defenses did Vick face that year? Manziel at a minimum faced Florida and LSU at home and @Alabama.

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 06:53 PM
The reason your analogy is not making any sense is because the original comment that Manziel as a Freshman had more production than Mike Vick had as a Freshman and sophomore combined and Mick Vick was a number 1 draft pick. As much as you dissect and find excuses to discredit Manziel's production over Vick it doesn't change the fact that in 1 year Manziel put up twice the numbers Mike Vick did in two years. It's still pretty amazing.

I'm not discrediting Manziel's production in regards to college football. It is amazing. Don't take my argument that way because his production has been incredible.

It doesn't make him a superior NFL prospect though. That's my only point. The offense he plays in negates all that. If Michael Vick was a redshirt freshman in 2012 instead of 1999 he would have put up much better numbers. That's just the way offense has evolved.

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 07:00 PM
What kind of defenses did Vick face that year? Manziel at a minimum faced Florida and LSU at home and @Alabama.

These are the ranked teams that VT faced that year. Not sure what the defenses were ranked. I do remember Miami and FSU both had awesome defenses around that time though.

@ #24 Virginia - W
#16 Syracuse - W
#19 Miami (FL.) - W
#22 Boston College - W
vs. #1 Florida State (National Title Game) - L

bhsman
11-20-2013, 07:08 PM
These are the ranked teams that VT faced that year. Not sure what the defenses were ranked. I do remember Miami and FSU both had awesome defenses around that time though.

@ #24 Virginia - W
#16 Syracuse - W
#19 Miami (FL.) - W
#22 Boston College - W
vs. #1 Florida State (National Title Game) - L

Interesting. Was mostly asking w/r/t the completion rate difference between Manziel and Vick.

mussop
11-20-2013, 08:45 PM
I'm not discrediting Manziel's production in regards to college football. It is amazing. Don't take my argument that way because his production has been incredible.

It doesn't make him a superior NFL prospect though. That's my only point. The offense he plays in negates all that. If Michael Vick was a redshirt freshman in 2012 instead of 1999 he would have put up much better numbers. That's just the way offense has evolved.

Actually when you consider the competition it does.

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 09:04 PM
Actually when you consider the competition it does.

I'm so tired of the competition debate. The SEC is overrated as a defensive league. Those days are long over. The offenses have caught up and you only have a handful of good defenses now. I realize the significance of the game against Alabama, but portraying that the other 7 conference games are even close to that level is a crock of ****. The ACC, Big Ten, and Pac-12 all have more defenses in the top 15 than the SEC.


Manziel played 3 competent defenses last year (Florida, LSU, and Alabama).

He went 76/117 (65%) for 702 yards with 2 TD's and 3 INT's. He added 179 yards rushing on 52 carries (3.4 ypc) and 1 TD.


This year he has played 2 competent defenses so far (Alabama and Mississippi State)

He has gone 58/78 (74%) for 910 yards with 10 TD's and 5 INT's. He added 145 yards rushing on 28 carries (5.2 ypc).

Texian
11-20-2013, 09:16 PM
I'm not discrediting Manziel's production in regards to college football. It is amazing. Don't take my argument that way because his production has been incredible.

It doesn't make him a superior NFL prospect though. That's my only point. The offense he plays in negates all that. If Michael Vick was a redshirt freshman in 2012 instead of 1999 he would have put up much better numbers. That's just the way offense has evolved.

I guess this where we have a fundalmental disagreement. I see where NFL coaches are incorporating this in to their offenses. I mentioned Washington incorporating some of Baylor's offense for RGIII and y'all mocked but it's the truth Shanahan did just that. Several NFL coaches flocked to Nevada to be tutored by Kaepernick's head coach.

We also see a difference in Leach vs Briles and Sumlin. Leach is much more pass oriented, yet Briles and Sumlin passing game are much more downfield oriented. A big majority of Leach's offense were mostly no read quick snap passes of < 5 yds. That is not the Briles & Sumlin offense or passing game. And I agree what Leach does that doesn't translate to the NFL.

Vick in college today, a hypothetical but I'll indulge in this game one time. Let's assume Vick is not at Tech but at Texas A&M today and the question is would he put numbers that equal or exceed Manziel. Passing no way, to suggest 54% completions would out perform 73% completions on 500 attempts is a futile argument not worth having and a waste of time. I suggest that Texas A&M would have lost considerably more games with a QB who only completed 54% of his passes. Rushing, IMHO doubtful Vick would be Manziel's equal. Manziel is a smarter football player than Mike Vick, sees the field better than Vick and because of that I don't think Vick's 5.9 YPC and 8 TDs at VT would translate in to Manziels 7.0 YPC and 21 TDs at Texas A&M. I am sure many will want to argue this differently.

I think Mike Vick is an amazing amazing athlete, his athleticism after all is what made him the #1 draft pick. Like Manziel, I have seen Mike Vick doing some amazing things on a football field. FYI - I have been a Falcons season ticket holder since 1987 and my house was 7 miles from Falcons HQ. I was on the front row at Falcons HQ the day Dan Reeves announced Vick as the #1 pick. Picture was in the AJC.

As for the defenses played, Manziel has played against some SEC defenses that are every bit as tough, if not tougher than defenses Mick Vick played while at VT.

Texian
11-20-2013, 09:47 PM
.I'm so tired of the competition debate. The SEC is overrated as a defensive league. Those days are long over. The offenses have caught up and you only have a handful of good defenses now. I realize the significance of the game against Alabama, but portraying that the other 7 conference games are even close to that level is a crock of ****. The ACC, Big Ten, and Pac-12 all have more defenses in the top 15 than the SEC.


Manziel played 3 competent defenses last year (Florida, LSU, and Alabama).

He went 76/117 (65%) for 702 yards with 2 TD's and 3 INT's. He added 179 yards rushing on 52 carries (3.4 ypc) and 1 TD.


This year he has played 2 competent defenses so far (Alabama and Mississippi State)

He has gone 58/78 (74%) for 910 yards with 10 TD's and 5 INT's. He added 145 yards rushing on 28 carries (5.2 ypc).

IMHO I would suggest that you could add Oklahoma to the 2012 list of competent defenses and Ole Miss and Auburn to the 2013 list of competent defenses played with competent defenses of Mizzou and LSU still to be played in 2013....in what many consider the best defense in college football the last 2 years, Alabama, he has hung 78 on them.

WolverineFan
11-20-2013, 10:01 PM
.

IMHO I would suggest that you could add Oklahoma to the 2012 list of competent defenses and Ole Miss and Auburn to the 2013 list of competent defenses played with competent defenses of Mizzou and LSU still to be played in 2013....in what many consider the best defense in college football the last 2 years, Alabama, he has hung 78 on them.

Oklahoma had the 64th ranked defense in the country last year and they had a couple of horrific games last year outside of the A&M game.

Ole Miss (#43) and Missouri (#52) both hang around #50 so I might give you those, but Auburn is #72. LSU is #24 FWIW.

The point I'm making is the strength of defense he faces is not really any different than Winston, Mariotta, Hundley, etc. The only outlier is Alabama, who Manziel played good against last year and dominated this year.

bhsman
11-21-2013, 12:12 AM
I think the point is that, aside from fumbles (1 for Manziel to 0 for AJ) and Interceptions (11 on the year compared to 0!!! for Mariota), Manziel is playing exceptionally against those defenses, in addition to his game against Alabama.

MistaRed
11-22-2013, 11:43 AM
Finally joined the Manziel hype train. Would not be mad at that pick.

Rey
11-22-2013, 12:36 PM
I've watched manziel play one good team this year and that was auburn. I can't say I was impressed.

He didn't do the things that I'd want to see out if a franchise qb. Tbh he looks like keenum a little bit.

I have not watched any of the other top prospects except bridgewater for a little while, and he does what I would like to see from a franchise guy.

I would like to see manziel stay in school another year and really work on his passing. I don't like.

I'd rather a qb make plays from the pocket than to be running around all the time. I don't like that about keenum and I don't like it from manziel. You're going to often be inconsistent when you play like that in the nfl.

Contrast that with a guy like jaimes Winston or bridgewater or in the nfl Big Ben...guys that are mobile, but they aren't out there running all over the place and bailing all the time.

I'd prefer a guy like keenum or manziel to a guy like Matt, but if I'm taking a guy in the top of the first round, I guy who will carve you from the pocket primarily.

Rey
11-22-2013, 12:43 PM
And I do think that keenum can become better in the pocket over the course of these few games. But it's going to be a team effort. Regardless, I want to see him hang in there for as long as possible.

bhsman
11-22-2013, 05:43 PM
I've watched manziel play one good team this year and that was auburn. I can't say I was impressed.

...Alabama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8xVIgWEBY)?

What's funny is that, near the end of the game, Manziel switches seamlessly between scrambling and stopping to view the field as if to pass. It was really awesome to see and you can tell the defense can't really do anything about it.

htownfan32
11-22-2013, 05:50 PM
I'd re-watch the Auburn tape to evaluate Rey's comments on Manziel, but I can't watch that game without feeling sick to my stomach.

Honoring Earl 34
11-23-2013, 07:45 AM
I'd re-watch the Auburn tape to evaluate Rey's comments on Manziel, but I can't watch that game without feeling sick to my stomach.

Bring a bucket . :vincepalm:

Rey
11-23-2013, 11:03 AM
...Alabama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8xVIgWEBY)?

What's funny is that, near the end of the game, Manziel switches seamlessly between scrambling and stopping to view the field as if to pass. It was really awesome to see and you can tell the defense can't really do anything about it.

I did not see him play Bama. That's why I said "I've seen" and not "manziel has only played"....

I'm not condemning the guy. I'm just saying that he's going to have to change his game some, IMO, to be a good qb in the nfl.

bhsman
11-23-2013, 12:08 PM
I did not see him play Bama. That's why I said "I've seen" and not "manziel has only played"....

I'm not condemning the guy. I'm just saying that he's going to have to change his game some, IMO, to be a good qb in the nfl.

Nothing stopping you from looking, though. :)

aussie_texan
11-23-2013, 06:31 PM
Fo me it's a toss up between Clowney and Matthews.

Which way would you go?

Or is Johnny Football your pick? I would rather wait until 2015 see if Case is the guy and if he's not pick either Hogan/Petty.

our boy Hogan just lit it up today :kingkong:

Mr teX
11-23-2013, 06:37 PM
...Alabama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8xVIgWEBY)?

What's funny is that, near the end of the game, Manziel switches seamlessly between scrambling and stopping to view the field as if to pass. It was really awesome to see and you can tell the defense can't really do anything about it.

Dude threw a pick 6 and a red zone int....2 critical turnovers that ultimately were the difference in the game....

All the aggregate stats mean didley poo if you cost your team the game.....

Rey
11-23-2013, 06:52 PM
Nothing stopping you from looking, though. :)

I'll probably get around to watching some of it.

I like manziel as a football player. But at the moment in thinking I wouldn't take him at the top of the first round. I don't like how he throws the ball. He doesn't seem like a natural passer to me.

But he has playmaking ability and if he can develop as a passer he could be really good. But the way he moves in the pocket, sees the field, reads defense...IMO it leaves a lot to be desired.

bhsman
11-23-2013, 07:57 PM
Dude threw a pick 6 and a red zone int....2 critical turnovers that ultimately were the difference in the game....

All the aggregate stats mean didley poo if you cost your team the game.....

And if Manziel's defense could stop a nose bleed we'd be talking differently, but they can't.

WolverineFan
11-23-2013, 08:04 PM
And if Manziel's defense could stop a nose bleed we'd be talking differently, but they can't.

Manziel played like crap today. Let's not put this one on the defense. They started the game with 3 straight stops and A&M had 1 first down in response. Yea they aren't very good, but the A&M offense was just as bad today.

This is the problem I was talking about with Manziel. Keep him in the pocket and you get a 16/41 performance with a couple of turnovers. Sure he scrambled around a bit and got some yards, but for most of the game LSU kept him contained in the pocket and he reverted to his chuck and pray throws.

bhsman
11-23-2013, 08:19 PM
I was referring to the Alabama game above, not today's game. I was cheering for the Tiger's as a student but Manziel was not getting help from his receivers, and on Mike Evans' touchdown-that-wasn't, Robinson was committing some blatant DPI that wasn't called.

I mean, the Tiger's got a win, but your strategy to beat him is more or less what everyone tries. LSU (or Chavis, really) has a better idea of how to accomplish it.

WolverineFan
11-23-2013, 08:23 PM
I was referring to the Alabama game above, not today's game. I was cheering for the Tiger's as a student but Manziel was not getting help from his receivers, and on Mike Evans' touchdown-that-wasn't, Robinson was committing some blatant DPI that wasn't called.

I mean, the Tiger's got a win, but your strategy to beat him is more or less what everyone tries. LSU (or Chavis, really) has a better idea of how to accomplish it.

My bad.

As for LSU and how to beat him. They play a particular style of defense that is death for offenses like A&M, Oregon, etc. They have the athletes to man up downfield, but also have the athletes to get pressure with 4-5.

IMO, that's what it's going to look like when Manziel is playing in the league. Not too that extreme for the most part, but that's how NFL teams will play him.

bhsman
11-23-2013, 08:30 PM
Meh, it's not like he hasn't played teams like that. Maybe it's some of our voodoo magic. :kitten:

Honestly our defense has been really bad at getting pressure all year, but we also play up to competition and seem to play proportionally to how riled up Tiger Stadium is. The place was LOUD today. There were several times where, as the Aggies were driving down away from the student section that I noticed Mike Evans screaming at Manziel and trying to get the play.

I haven't even given my most important piece of information yet. Just need to upload my iPhone photos...

Texian
11-24-2013, 04:05 PM
After today's game the chances of the Texans drafting a QB with their first draft pick has become the odds on favorite.

leebigeztx
11-24-2013, 05:19 PM
Teddy Bridgewater here we come!

Bulls on Parade
11-24-2013, 05:36 PM
Can somebody post me that Johnny Manziel photo wearing a Texans jersey? I kind of hope he falls to us in the second round, or maybe we can trade up with our second round pick and still snag him late in the first round. I'd rather use our potential first overall pick to trade down for a King's Ransom offer or just take an elite defensive player. Not sure I'm sold on Teddy Bridgewater being a franchise guy.

Bulls on Parade
11-24-2013, 05:37 PM
After today's game the chances of the Texans drafting a QB with their first draft pick has become the odds on favorite.
Oh definitely, but with a first overall pick? I think not...
Either round two or trade back up into the first round.
After that LSU game I'm confident Manziel's stock is falling.
16-for-41 passing with 1 TD and 2 INTs. He may fall to the second round right into our hands.

Texian
11-24-2013, 07:54 PM
Oh definitely, but with a first overall pick? I think not...
Either round two or trade back up into the first round.
After that LSU game I'm confident Manziel's stock is falling.
16-for-41 passing with 1 TD and 2 INTs. He may fall to the second round right into our hands.

1 bad game vs 24 very good or great games is not going to alter his draft stock/position as much as you think it will.

mussop
11-24-2013, 10:10 PM
1 bad game vs 24 very good or great games is not going to alter his draft stock/position as much as you think it will.

No it won't. And I'm not making excuses for him but there were a lot of dropped balls and mental mistakes made at bad times in that game by his teammates.

WolverineFan
11-24-2013, 10:12 PM
1 bad game vs 24 very good or great games is not going to alter his draft stock/position as much as you think it will.

2 years of bad tape against LSU means quite a bit though.

Bulls on Parade
11-24-2013, 10:13 PM
1 bad game vs 24 very good or great games is not going to alter his draft stock/position as much as you think it will.
I can dream can't I? I want him to fall into our laps somehow without having to use our likely first overall pick on him.

bhsman
11-24-2013, 10:20 PM
1 bad game vs 24 very good or great games is not going to alter his draft stock/position as much as you think it will.

It might make it easier to trade down if the coaching staff (whomever that might) decides that:

A) He's the guy
B) He'll be where we can get him

If his play declines more and it becomes obvious during the Mizzou/bowl game, he could slip a bit to where the team could feel comfortable trading down.

One person whose stock seems to have risen a bit is Mettenberger; again, depending on the coaching staff at the time, I could see him picked up in the late first/early second if we feel like trading up.

Rey
11-24-2013, 10:43 PM
Bridgewater. I thought case was ok, but if we end up with the first pick like I think we will, I'm going bridgewater.

leebigeztx
11-24-2013, 11:07 PM
I never thought it would happen but I'm glad it happened this yr. To get a true franchise caliber qb is great.no more backups,no more trying to adjust the game plan because the qb can't make certain throws. Get bridgewater and fix everything else with the rest of the draft.

VTexan
11-25-2013, 12:45 AM
BPA. if QB is BPA then so be it. we have so many holes everywhere. and by the looks it, from a person who watches very little of CFB, it seems that you could very well strike gold with a QB in the drafted both inside and outside the 1st .

Mr teX
11-25-2013, 08:03 AM
I'd be fine with Bridgewater, Matthews or Clowney......

The1ApplePie
11-25-2013, 08:43 AM
QB or pass rusher. The two most important positions on the field, and the Texans have neither.

Mr teX
11-25-2013, 09:17 AM
QB or pass rusher. The two most important positions on the field, and the Texans have neither.

Justin James Watt disagrees with this post.

Texian
11-25-2013, 07:53 PM
After trading back with Cleveland the Texans now have (2) 1st Rd picks, for now let's say #10 and #21.

With their first pick in the NFL Draft The Houston Texans take Blake Bortles, QB Central Florida, 6'4" 230 lbs.

and with their 2nd pick in the 1st RD #21 The Houston Texans take Brandon Scherff, OT, Iowa 6'5" 310 lbs.

This will be in my new mock after the season and pre bowl season.

Honoring Earl 34
11-25-2013, 07:58 PM
After trading back with Cleveland the Texans now have (2) 1st Rd picks, for now let's say #10 and #21.

With their first pick in the NFL Draft The Houston Texans take Blake Bartles, QB Central Florida, 6'4" 230 lbs.

and with their 2nd pick in the 1st RD #21 The Houston Texans take Brandon Scherff, OT, Iowa 6'5" 310 lbs.

This will be in my new mock after the season and pre bowl season.

If they take Bartles then they need to get JuWaun James . :bubbles:

Texian
11-25-2013, 08:06 PM
If they take Bartles then they need to get JuWaun James . :bubbles:

Scherff is projected to be a late 1st Rd and can also play LT. (the old what if Duane Brown gets inj). James is projected to go in Rds 3-4 and is a RT only.

Honoring Earl 34
11-25-2013, 08:14 PM
Scherff is projected to be a late 1st Rd and can also play LT. (the old what if Duane Brown gets inj). James is projected to go in Rds 3-4 and is a RT only.

Blake Bartles and JuWaun James goes well together .

How bout Dee Ford and Derek Carr ?

what about ... Silas Redd and Alfred Blue ?

Texian
11-25-2013, 08:39 PM
Blake Bartles and JuWaun James goes well together .

How bout Dee Ford and Derek Carr ?

what about ... Silas Redd and Alfred Blue ?

My bad on a couple of fronts, I'm a little slow this evening. First it's Bortles and NOT Bartles. Maybe that why I didn't get your connection. You're right if it had been Bartles, James would've been ideal pick.

You're on a roll this evening keep it going. Apparently I'm on a biscuit. (that's the best I got)

badboy
11-25-2013, 08:41 PM
I never thought it would happen but I'm glad it happened this yr. To get a true franchise caliber qb is great.no more backups,no more trying to adjust the game plan because the qb can't make certain throws. Get bridgewater and fix everything else with the rest of the draft.Remember all the squalling when Colts lost Manning only to draft Luck? Here we lose Schaub and possibly land a great QB in draft..

Texian
11-26-2013, 12:53 AM
After week 12 the Houston Texans have the 2nd pick in the 2014 NFL Draft:

http://www.gbnreport.com/weeklydraftorder.html

leebigeztx
11-26-2013, 01:43 AM
After week 12 the Houston Texans have the 2nd pick in the 2014 NFL Draft:

http://www.gbnreport.com/weeklydraftorder.html

Don't worry,by the end of season, texans will be 2-14 with the worse record in football.

mussop
11-26-2013, 09:54 AM
2 years of bad tape against LSU means quite a bit though.

Did you watch either of those games?

WolverineFan
11-26-2013, 11:27 AM
Did you watch either of those games?

Yes I did. Last year doesn't mean as much because he was a freshman. This year will be somewhat of an indictment for those who are not fans of him. There were drops and the guys up front didn't play all that well (Matthews had a pretty bad game, at least for him). But that doesn't change the fact that LSU wrote the book on Manziel.

Press his WR's at the line and get pressure with a talented front four, but stay in your rush lanes and keep him in the pocket. Too many times in that game he had a nice pocket to step into and he bugged out and tried to do his thing instead of hanging in there.

On any given play, he can hang in the pocket and make a great throw. But if you keep him contained to the pocket on every play, he's going to struggle. Especially if you have great athletes on your defense and can matchup downfield. What LSU did to Manziel this past weekend is exactly how NFL teams are going to attack him.

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2013, 11:29 AM
Yes I did. Last year doesn't mean as much because he was a freshman. This year will be somewhat of an indictment for those who are not fans of him. There were drops and the guys up front didn't play all that well (Matthews had a pretty bad game, at least for him). But that doesn't change the fact that LSU wrote the book on Manziel.

Press his WR's at the line and get pressure with a talented front four, but stay in your rush lanes and keep him in the pocket. Too many times in that game he had a nice pocket to step into and he bugged out and tried to do his thing instead of hanging in there.

On any given play, he can hang in the pocket and make a great throw. But if you keep him contained to the pocket on every play, he's going to struggle. Especially if you have great athletes on your defense and can matchup downfield. What LSU did to Manziel this past weekend is exactly how NFL teams are going to attack him.

If JF can't make it as a QB , I think he would be a great slot reciever .

Mr teX
11-26-2013, 11:40 AM
If JF can't make it as a QB , I think he would be a great slot reciever .

How can you say this without any idea about his hands?

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2013, 11:44 AM
How can you say this without any idea about his hands?

I guess I just type it . :ahhaha:

bhsman
11-26-2013, 01:42 PM
A&M's gameplan was just kinda...weird. They only had 6 runs on the day and abandoned it pretty early, even before things got out of hand.

And I'm an LSU fan, before any of you start frothing at the mouth. :strangle:

htownfan32
11-26-2013, 01:46 PM
A&M's gameplan was just kinda...weird. They only had 6 runs on the day and abandoned it pretty early, even before things got out of hand.

And I'm an LSU fan, before any of you start frothing at the mouth. :strangle:

I was cursing Clarence McKinney a million different ways on Saturday over this, believe me.

We have a damn good running back in Trey Williams. I don't understand why we didn't use him at all.

bOODRO87
11-26-2013, 02:22 PM
I've seen Manziel throw it across it body and up for grabs enough for me to not want to take a chance on him. 100% on board for Bridgewater if we get the 1st pick. OL or ILB at the 33rd pick.

steelbtexan
11-26-2013, 02:46 PM
I never thought it would happen but I'm glad it happened this yr. To get a true franchise caliber qb is great.no more backups,no more trying to adjust the game plan because the qb can't make certain throws. Get bridgewater and fix everything else with the rest of the draft.

They tried this with David Carr. How did that work out?

Either pick Clowney or trade down for more picks.

What makes Bridgewater so different from Derek Carr? In fact Carr is just as mobile, probably has a stronger arm, has played against a similar level of competition and put up better numbers than Bridgewater.

Give me after a trade down Erving/Nix with my 2 1st rd picks from the Browns and McCarron/Mettenberger with 2/1. Or take Murray in the 4/5th. Fix the OL/DL 1st, after 2 rebuilds hopefully the Texans have learned something that some fans haven't learned yet.

Mettenberger has Flacco/Ben's skill set and they've won multiple SB's because of the talent around them. BoB said that he wants to build a team like the Steelers. This is his chance after 3 tries.

Yes I know Nix had MCL surgery and Murray had ACL surgery.

msbbc833
11-26-2013, 02:55 PM
No way the Browns give up both their 1sts for our first

badboy
11-26-2013, 03:29 PM
No way the Browns give up both their 1sts for our firstThis is what I thought at first but Cleveland desperately needs a franchise QB so maybe. ESPN Rang and Brugler have Carr going to them at 8 and I just cannot see a team taking a chance like that so high in draft. Maybe I am just a burnt Texans fan who goes into convulsions when I hear Carr..whoops there I go again. :overreact:

Their second pick from Colts should be around #25 ish will not bring them a top flight WR or CB or at least not one better than #40 could bring in second say WR Jordan Matthews or CB. Personally, I'd go WR second round and then CB in one of the two thirds. I think Brown need that name QB worst than Houston.

Texian
11-26-2013, 05:14 PM
No way the Browns give up both their 1sts for our first

Here is what Washington gave up to move from #6 to #2.

For the 2nd pick in the draft Washington gave St Louis:

Skins #6 pick in the 2012 draft
Skins 1st Rd and 2nd Rd picks in the 2013 draft
Skins 1st Rd pick in the 2014 draft.

Here is what the Giants gave up to move from #5 to #1 to get Eli:

For the 1st pick in the draft New York Giants gave San Diego:

Giants #5 pick in the 04 draft
Giants 3rd RD pick in the 04 draft
Giants 1st Rd and 5th Rd picks in the 05 draft.

If the Browns want to move up to get their Franchise QB it will cost them both of their 1st Rd picks in 2014 and a lot more (their 1st RD in 2015). Remember it was the Browns who lost out to Washington in the BID for RGIII. Odds are they won't miss twice.

Rey
11-26-2013, 05:35 PM
Tons of good qb's in this draft. If us and the browns need franchise qb's why are we ok picking one of the other guys, but they wouldn't be?

Why are they moving up for a guy, but we aren't taking them?

Texian
11-26-2013, 05:51 PM
Tons of good qb's in this draft. If us and the browns need franchise qb's why are we ok picking one of the other guys, but they wouldn't be?

Why are they moving up for a guy, but we aren't taking them?

One team's evaluation is different from the other. there are 32 teams with 32 different looking draft boards. You say there are tons of good QBs in this draft and yet I think there is really only 2-3 QBs with 1st Rd value.

People say Mariota is Top 10 1st Rd and yet I see Joey Harrington/Seneca Wallace

People say Hundley is a 1st Rd QB and yet I see Josh Freeman

People say Teddy Bridgewater is Top 10 1st Rd QB and yet I see Geno Smith

People say Johnny Manziel is Top 10 1st RD QB and yet I see Russell Wilson.

Would you take Joey Harrington, Seneca Wallace, Josh Freeman, Geno Smith or Russell Wilson in the 1st RD?

bhsman
11-26-2013, 06:20 PM
I haven't done much tape on Bridgewater, but I was watching the Browns D on NFL rewind (as part of my growing obsession with Ray Horton) and couldn't help but be reminded of Bridgewater as I saw Jason Campbell play, though that could be a mistake on my part.

The only thing that concerns me with Bridgewater is that his short passes seem to be thrown very...softly. Like they are slow to arrive. That may just be his touch showing but I can't help but see an aggressive DB taking advantage of that.

Rey
11-26-2013, 06:28 PM
One team's evaluation is different from the other. there are 32 teams with 32 different looking draft boards. You say there are tons of good QBs in this draft and yet I think there is really only 2-3 QBs with 1st Rd value.

People say Mariota is Top 10 1st Rd and yet I see Joey Harrington/Seneca Wallace

People say Hundley is a 1st Rd QB and yet I see Josh Freeman

People say Teddy Bridgewater is Top 10 1st Rd QB and yet I see Geno Smith

People say Johnny Manziel is Top 10 1st RD QB and yet I see Russell Wilson.

Would you take Joey Harrington, Seneca Wallace, Josh Freeman, Geno Smith or Russell Wilson in the 1st RD?


Yes I would take Russell Wilson in the first round.

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2013, 06:56 PM
One team's evaluation is different from the other. there are 32 teams with 32 different looking draft boards. You say there are tons of good QBs in this draft and yet I think there is really only 2-3 QBs with 1st Rd value.

People say Mariota is Top 10 1st Rd and yet I see Joey Harrington/Seneca Wallace

People say Hundley is a 1st Rd QB and yet I see Josh Freeman

People say Teddy Bridgewater is Top 10 1st Rd QB and yet I see Geno Smith

People say Johnny Manziel is Top 10 1st RD QB and yet I see Russell Wilson.

Would you take Joey Harrington, Seneca Wallace, Josh Freeman, Geno Smith or Russell Wilson in the 1st RD?

I think the Senior Bowl is a decent barometer on their play . The bad news is they're not seniors .

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2013, 06:58 PM
Tons of good qb's in this draft. If us and the browns need franchise qb's why are we ok picking one of the other guys, but they wouldn't be?

Why are they moving up for a guy, but we aren't taking them?

Yep ... if Teddy ends up being the real deal , it's like drafting Travis Johnson instead of Aaron Rogers all over again . Of course we did have DC :overreact:

A Teddy interview .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaCmCXBNpJE

amazing80
11-26-2013, 08:08 PM
One team's evaluation is different from the other. there are 32 teams with 32 different looking draft boards. You say there are tons of good QBs in this draft and yet I think there is really only 2-3 QBs with 1st Rd value.

People say Mariota is Top 10 1st Rd and yet I see Joey Harrington/Seneca Wallace

People say Hundley is a 1st Rd QB and yet I see Josh Freeman

People say Teddy Bridgewater is Top 10 1st Rd QB and yet I see Geno Smith

People say Johnny Manziel is Top 10 1st RD QB and yet I see Russell Wilson.

Would you take Joey Harrington, Seneca Wallace, Josh Freeman, Geno Smith or Russell Wilson in the 1st RD?

you have a terrible eye for talent, stick to your day job :spin:

Texian
11-26-2013, 08:17 PM
you have a terrible eye for talent, stick to your day job :spin:

We will see....when I was young I too often overreacted and thought many players were going to be much better than they were. I have learned that most players are not going to be what you want them to be or hope them to be. One or two maybe, every year probably not.

Rey
11-26-2013, 08:22 PM
One team's evaluation is different from the other. there are 32 teams with 32 different looking draft boards. You say there are tons of good QBs in this draft and yet I think there is really only 2-3 QBs with 1st Rd value.

People say Mariota is Top 10 1st Rd and yet I see Joey Harrington/Seneca Wallace

People say Hundley is a 1st Rd QB and yet I see Josh Freeman

People say Teddy Bridgewater is Top 10 1st Rd QB and yet I see Geno Smith

People say Johnny Manziel is Top 10 1st RD QB and yet I see Russell Wilson.

Would you take Joey Harrington, Seneca Wallace, Josh Freeman, Geno Smith or Russell Wilson in the 1st RD?

Would require both teams to think the way you have designed for them to think.

Lots of variables. We'll see.

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2013, 08:24 PM
We will see....when I was young I too often overreacted and thought many players were going to be much better than they were. I have learned that most players are not going to be what you want them to be or hope them to be. One or two maybe, every year probably not.

If you hit 40% of your draft you've done well .

KC picked 1st overall last year and their not so happy with Fisher . Joeckel is out for the year and the Dolphins guy can't stay on the field . It's a crap shoot that gets revealed 3 years down the road .

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2013, 08:26 PM
We will see....when I was young I too often overreacted and thought many players were going to be much better than they were. I have learned that most players are not going to be what you want them to be or hope them to be. One or two maybe, every year probably not.

Wow ... and Johnny :heart: wasn't even around then .:spit: