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kingtexan
09-23-2013, 10:12 PM
During half-time of MNF they have Sunday Soundtracks. Showed Brian Cushing walking over to the Ninja while our offense was out on the field saying "lets get a forced fumble. we gotta do something, they aint gonna do it" while looking out at our offense.

Nuff said.

DocBar
09-23-2013, 10:14 PM
And the defense didn't do it, either. Nice story. You should've started it as "once upon a time".

Nuff said.

kingtexan
09-23-2013, 10:16 PM
And the defense didn't do it, either. Nice story. You should've started it as "once upon a time".

Nuff said.

Just quoting what was just on national TV ... watch football much?

DocBar
09-23-2013, 10:19 PM
Just quoting what was just on national TV ... watch football much?Watching it now. If you'd been watching the Texans the last 4-5 years, you'd understand my comment better.

Like I said, it's a nice quote, but ultimately meaningless. The defense didn't produce turnovers or sacks. There have been many more games, since 2006, that the offense delivered only to watch the defense give the game away. It's a team game.

kingtexan
09-23-2013, 10:24 PM
Watching it now. If you'd been watching the Texans the last 4-5 years, you'd understand my comment better.

Like I said, it's a nice quote, but ultimately meaningless. The defense didn't produce turnovers or sacks. There have been many more games, since 2006, that the offense delivered only to watch the defense give the game away. It's a team game.

The offense went down three times and only scored field goals, then gave away 7 points. Not sure I can blame the loss on the defense. Sure all three levels could have been better, but the offense put us in a position we should never have been in. I agree with Cushing.

DX-TEX
09-23-2013, 10:28 PM
Someone needs to call out Schaub in public. Sorry but it needs to happen for any real change to happen.

BTW, change doesn't necessarily mean TJ or Case.

DocBar
09-23-2013, 10:30 PM
The offense went down three times and only scored field goals, then gave away 7 points. Not sure I can blame the loss on the defense. Sure all three levels could have been better, but the offense put us in a position we should never have been in. I agree with Cushing.And what's the defenses record in the red zone? I'll bet you a bunch of money that it's worse than the offenses.

kingtexan
09-23-2013, 10:31 PM
BTW, change doesn't necessarily mean TJ or Case.

You wanting Gary to suit up? Or maybe OD or K-Mart? Think they may be the only former QB's at anything above the high-school level on the team.

DX-TEX
09-23-2013, 10:32 PM
You wanting Gary to suit up? Or maybe OD or K-Mart? Think they may be the only former QB's at anything above the high-school level on the team.

No....changing up the gameplan, air it out more, be aggressive etc....

kingtexan
09-23-2013, 10:32 PM
And what's the defenses record in the red zone? I'll bet you a bunch of money that it's worse than the offenses.

No clue. Not much of a stat geek. Just watched the game and saw effort and at times bad execution by the defense, and bad play calling and flat out horrible QB performance on offense.

kingtexan
09-23-2013, 10:33 PM
air it out more

Unless someone other than Matt suits up, we cant air it out ...

DocBar
09-23-2013, 10:36 PM
Someone needs to call out Schaub in public. Sorry but it needs to happen for any real change to happen.

BTW, change doesn't necessarily mean TJ or Case.I think that change will occur when Schaub has an "injury" and Yates replaces him. I wouldn't be surprised at all for Schaub to come up with a mystery ailment after the 49'ers game, depending on how he and the offense performs.

DX-TEX
09-23-2013, 10:36 PM
Unless someone other than Matt suits up, we cant air it out ...

Look lets be realistic: unless Schaub gets hurt Kubiak is NOT going to pull him. The best we can hope for is some change ups in the game plan and at least let him change it up.

Showtime100
09-23-2013, 10:37 PM
Someone needs to call out Schaub in public. Sorry but it needs to happen for any real change to happen.

BTW, change doesn't necessarily mean TJ or Case.

All I can say about this thread is, I hope many of the Texans offensive players come here and read this thread. I would be surprised if Texans players don't lurk here frequently.

Cushing said what many of us were thinking. The whole team could hear what he said and search the soul for a minute.

Cushing called out the offense and there was no response on the field. He called for the defense and there was no response on the field.

DocBar
09-23-2013, 10:37 PM
No clue. Not much of a stat geek. Just watched the game and saw effort and at times bad execution by the defense, and bad play calling and flat out horrible QB performance on offense.The defense has given up nearly 100% in the red zone. Mostly on passes. There really is no comparison.

DocBar
09-23-2013, 10:38 PM
Look lets be realistic: unless Schaub gets hurt Kubiak is NOT going to pull him. The best we can hope for is some change ups in the game plan and at least let him change it up.See post #12

DX-TEX
09-23-2013, 10:40 PM
See post #12

Don't see it happening. At this point Schaubiak is one person and will live and die together. Kubiak has some sick sense of honor.

DocBar
09-23-2013, 10:44 PM
Don't see it happening. At this point Schaubiak is one person and will live and die together. Kubiak has some sick sense of honor.I can't argue with that.

HJam72
09-23-2013, 10:45 PM
I think that change will occur when Schaub has an "injury" and Yates replaces him. I wouldn't be surprised at all for Schaub to come up with a mystery ailment after the 49'ers game, depending on how he and the offense performs.

I think it should be Keenum.

BullBlitz
09-23-2013, 10:45 PM
During half-time of MNF they have Sunday Soundtracks. Showed Brian Cushing walking over to the Ninja while our offense was out on the field saying "lets get a forced fumble. we gotta do something, they aint gonna do it" while looking out at our offense.

Nuff said.

"... we gotta do something, they ain't going to do it"

That sounds like something that Foster, Daniels or Hopkins might have been saying about the defense, just about the time that JJo was drawing a taunting penalty, Flacco was drawing Cushing offsides and KJ was getting one interference call after another.

Showtime100
09-23-2013, 10:47 PM
I think that change will occur when Schaub has an "injury" and Yates replaces him. I wouldn't be surprised at all for Schaub to come up with a mystery ailment after the 49'ers game, depending on how he and the offense performs.

Could be. If I may reference Clue for a second......

The mystery ailment was caused by JJ Watt, with the swatt, in the parking lott. Apologies for the spelling, it just seemed right.

DX-TEX
09-23-2013, 10:49 PM
"... we gotta do something, they ain't going to do it"

That sounds like something that Foster, Daniels or Hopkins might have been saying about the defense, just about the time that JJo was drawing a taunting penalty, Flacco was drawing Cushing offsides and KJ was getting one interference call after another.

Defense was shutting down the Ravens. Schaub and Marcianos "special" teams gave up the points and did NOTHING to get them back. Stop trying to spin it.

DX-TEX
09-23-2013, 10:50 PM
I can't argue with that.

Bows chest.....don't you forget it!

:slapfight:

DocBar
09-23-2013, 10:53 PM
I think it should be Keenum.Wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit. Just trying to keep all this speculation real. LOL

DocBar
09-23-2013, 10:54 PM
Bows chest.....don't you forget it!

:slapfight:Yes sir, Mr. Sir. :worldpeace:

SchaubApologist
09-23-2013, 10:59 PM
And the defense didn't do it, either. Nice story. You should've started it as "once upon a time".

Nuff said.

The defense gave up 16 points, and 3 of those were in junk time.

Aye dios mio.

tedr
09-23-2013, 11:02 PM
Defense was shutting down the Ravens. Schaub and Marcianos "special" teams gave up the points and did NOTHING to get them back. Stop trying to spin it.

This.

I'm frankly glad he said that. It's the truth...in three games, the defense has given up 51 points where there hasn't been a turnover deep in our own territory, a pick six, or a special teams screwup. That's 17 points a game- I'll take that any day. They are second ranked in yards allowed. They can play better, and they need to get more turnovers...but, they've done their job. The offense hasn't.

Bulls on Parade
09-23-2013, 11:03 PM
Is there any chance Matt Schaub will take a 40 % pay cut next off-season for the betterment of the team? He makes too much salary and is overpaid. We could use a big chunk of his salary on other needs. That would create some better cap room. I was against signing him long term in the first place.

I'm not going to lie, I was actually intrigued when Peyton Manning was a free agent and had some interest in Houston a couple off-seasons ago but as Bob McNair pointed out, we were never in the discussion because the team had faith in Matt Schaub.

Ironically, both quarterbacks were coming off serious injuries so it was a gamble to invest into both but one is elite, a Super Bowl champion and a future Hall of Famer, and the other is well, he's Matt Schaub.

All that being said, I'm trying my best to support Schaub. He's a great guy off the field and does wonderful work in the community. I guess things could be worse. Prior to the 2007 season we did have David Carr at quarterback. So Matt Schaub is way better by default.

Bulls on Parade
09-23-2013, 11:08 PM
Our defense knows they have to dominate to beat the elite teams. We're going to have to play like the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears to get it done.

Hervoyel
09-23-2013, 11:10 PM
I don't think it's really much of a topic. I saw a complete breakdown in nearly every facet of the game. Bullock was oddly enough the only guy who got it done. So Cushing can see that the offense is crapping the bed. It's not like the defense didn't crap the bed too. Special teams can't say anything to either one because they crapped the bed as well.

Coaches. Crap everywhere.

Complete failure almost across the board. If they want to start calling each other out and pointing fingers after week three then it's going to be a long ugly season and I'm not ready to start talking about the draft just yet.

eriadoc
09-23-2013, 11:12 PM
The defense has given up nearly 100% in the red zone. Mostly on passes. There really is no comparison.

Not only is there no comparison, there's no relevance. The red zone percentages are nice when you're getting into the red zone. When they move the ball between the 20s and settle for FGs (or missed FGs), the red zone percentage doesn't mean a damn thing. Same thing applies in reverse. How many times did the defense allow a team into the red zone? Let's face it, they looked like crap against tjhe Chargers for 35 minutes, and they gave up a key drive against both the Tacks and the Ravens. But if your defense gives up 16 points in today's NFL and you can't pull out the victory, you are not a playoff caliber offense.

DocBar
09-23-2013, 11:12 PM
I don't think it's really much of a topic. I saw a complete breakdown in nearly every facet of the game. Bullock was oddly enough the only guy who got it done. So Cushing can see that the offense is crapping the bed. It's not like the defense didn't crap the bed too. Special teams can't say anything to either one because they crapped the bed as well.

Coaches. Crap everywhere.

Complete failure almost across the board. If they want to start calling each other out and pointing fingers after week three then it's going to be a long ugly season and I'm not ready to start talking about the draft just yet.MSR. Truth.

eriadoc
09-23-2013, 11:15 PM
If they want to start calling each other out and pointing fingers after week three then it's going to be a long ugly season and I'm not ready to start talking about the draft just yet.

That's my concern about this.

Showtime100
09-23-2013, 11:20 PM
I don't think it's really much of a topic. I saw a complete breakdown in nearly every facet of the game. Bullock was oddly enough the only guy who got it done. So Cushing can see that the offense is crapping the bed. It's not like the defense didn't crap the bed too. Special teams can't say anything to either one because they crapped the bed as well.

Coaches. Crap everywhere.

Complete failure almost across the board. If they want to start calling each other out and pointing fingers after week three then it's going to be a long ugly season and I'm not ready to start talking about the draft just yet.

Good post all around. Especially the sentence in bold.

DocBar
09-23-2013, 11:20 PM
Not only is there no comparison, there's no relevance. The red zone percentages are nice when you're getting into the red zone. When they move the ball between the 20s and settle for FGs (or missed FGs), the red zone percentage doesn't mean a damn thing. Same thing applies in reverse. How many times did the defense allow a team into the red zone? Let's face it, they looked like crap against tjhe Chargers for 35 minutes, and they gave up a key drive against both the Tacks and the Ravens. But if your defense gives up 16 points in today's NFL and you can't pull out the victory, you are not a playoff caliber offense.Seriously? If your offense scores a TD on 80% of redzone appearances and your defense allows 100% TD's, then you're going to lose the majority of your games. Trend it and see what you think. We all had a front row seat to the difference between allowing TD's vs. FG's on Sunday.

waynegg
09-23-2013, 11:26 PM
And what's the defenses record in the red zone? I'll bet you a bunch of money that it's worse than the offenses.

You're probably right, apples hardly ever match oranges...

I would take you up on that bet if you were saying 'I betcha a bunch of money the offense capitalized in the red zone more times than the defense stopped the other team's offense from reaching the red zone'. Yeah, I'd take that bet.

Bulls on Parade
09-23-2013, 11:27 PM
I've been disappointed with the secondary mostly. Johnathan Joseph is a lockdown cornerback (2011 All Pro) but has been getting beat far too often. I just think it's a mental thing with him. For God sakes, a taunting penalty? Just play some good ball and let your play speak for itself.

Kareem Jackson has all the tools to become an All Pro and one of the better young corners in the league, but he is consistently caught with frustrating pass interference penalties because he's not turning around his head and playing the ball. There were a couple scoring drives by Baltimore just because of Kareem Jackson not playing smart.

Stop playing the receiver Kareem! He has too much speed and shouldn't worry about anybody blowing by him. Play the ball every time. Get yourself a deflection or interception. That would help the Texans defense become much better.

But other than that, yeah, our OLBs need to step up and play better. We're not getting a dominating front seven pass rush anymore. Like we used to have two seasons ago. We need our front seven to play like we expect them to. That would be a start.

I don't even want to discuss Matt Schaub and our offense right now. They frustrate the hell out of me. 100 times worse than the defense and special teams do. First of all, Arian Foster has to perform like the superstar he's getting paid to be. We can start with #23 playing good again and go from there. Stop talking about being paid to play at Tennessee, and start talking about earning your pay to play with the Houston Texans!!!

eriadoc
09-23-2013, 11:29 PM
Seriously? If your offense scores a TD on 80% of redzone appearances and your defense allows 100% TD's, then you're going to lose the majority of your games. Trend it and see what you think. We all had a front row seat to the difference between allowing TD's vs. FG's on Sunday.

Seriously, if your offense makes it into the red zone once and scores a TD on that drive, they're 100%. If your defense allows the other team into the red zone twice and gives up 2 TDs, they're 100% the wrong way. That loss would still be on the offense moreso than the defense. You're missing the point that number of times into the red zone vs. total possessions matters as much or more than red zone percentage in many cases.

DocBar
09-23-2013, 11:30 PM
Are you serious?

They gave up 3 points in the first half, and forced multiple 3 and outs!

Do you even believe the blather that you spit?

Yes, I do.

DocBar
09-23-2013, 11:32 PM
This was very inappropriate. Internet tough guys, gotta love em!!I'd say the same thing to your face, scooter. I'm not a tough guy, just a guy that says what he thinks. I have the scars to prove it.

DocBar
09-23-2013, 11:37 PM
Seriously, if your offense makes it into the red zone once and scores a TD on that drive, they're 100%. If your defense allows the other team into the red zone twice and gives up 2 TDs, they're 100% the wrong way. That loss would still be on the offense moreso than the defense. You're missing the point that number of times into the red zone vs. total possessions matters as much or more than red zone percentage in many cases.OK. Look at the totals and make up your own mind. The Texans D sux at stopping people once they are in the red zone. The Texans O is still better than the Texans D in the red zone.

To turn your argument around, it makes it much easier to know that if I can get the ball inside your 20, I'm virtually assured a TD. Go back to 2009 and look at how many games were lost due to that stat.

SchaubApologist
09-23-2013, 11:38 PM
I'd say the same thing to your face, scooter. I'm not a tough guy, just a guy that says what he thinks. I have the scars to prove it.

From the entire texans community:

:toropalm:

Coolhand_Luke
09-23-2013, 11:39 PM
@ DOCBAR,

Doc, are you drinking the Kubiac Cool aid or something? You can't possibly put any of this struggles on the defense. The D has been playing better and better. Besides a couple of big plays last sunday, the Ravs got about 2.5 yards per attempt. Get a clue dude. Our offense keep going 3 and out, what do you expect the D to do? people get tired, you know?? The original post of this topic shows that Cush got frustrated, and why would he? at least he tries....so what if the D don't force the Turn over? it's not their job to score the last time I check. The Ravens scored Like 13 points when the game mattered....get with the program, dude!!

DocBar
09-23-2013, 11:39 PM
From the entire texans community:

:toropalm:Whatever DB. I've been here a lot longer than you have or probably will be.

Coolhand_Luke
09-23-2013, 11:41 PM
"Ravens scored Like 13 points when the game mattered on our D....when the game mattered"

SchaubApologist
09-23-2013, 11:41 PM
@ DOCBAR,

Doc, are you drinking the Kubiac Cool aid or something? You can't possibly put any of this struggles on the defense. The D has been playing better and better. Besides a couple of big plays last sunday, the Ravs got about 2.5 yards per attempt. Get a clue dude. Our offense keep going 3 and out, what do you expect the D to do? people get tired, you know?? The original post of this topic shows that Cush got frustrated, and why would he? at least he tries....so what if the D don't force the Turn over? it's not their job to score the last time I check. The Ravens scored Like 13 points when the game mattered....get with the program, dude!!

But Luke, the defense got no huge turnovers or big time sacks... It does not matter they only gave up 16 points, apparently they are supposed to score game altering touchdowns every week!!

DocBar
09-23-2013, 11:44 PM
@ DOCBAR,

Doc, are you drinking the Kubiac Cool aid or something? You can't possibly put any of this struggles on the defense. The D has been playing better and better. Besides a couple of big plays last sunday, the Ravs got about 2.5 yards per attempt. Get a clue dude. Our offense keep going 3 and out, what do you expect the D to do? people get tired, you know?? The original post of this topic shows that Cush got frustrated, and why would he? at least he tries....so what if the D don't force the Turn over? it's not their job to score the last time I check. The Ravens scored Like 13 points when the game mattered....get with the program, dude!!No kool aid, whatsoever. I watch games over and over and call it like I see it. If I were any good at it, I'd probably have a coaching job somewhere.

I am not blind, though. I see severe deficiencies in our pass rush and pass coverage. Phillips seems to be more likely to change things up than Dennison or Kubiak, but it's often after things get out of hand. Both sides of the ball are very predictable and that's part of the problem.

SchaubApologist
09-23-2013, 11:45 PM
Whatever DB. I've been here a lot longer than you have or probably will be.

So THAT gives you the right...

Scooter
09-23-2013, 11:56 PM
I'd say the same thing to your face, scooter. I'm not a tough guy, just a guy that says what he thinks. I have the scars to prove it.

what did i do? :runaway:

DocBar
09-23-2013, 11:59 PM
So THAT gives you the right...No. The fact that I have a keyboard and an internet connection gives me the right. You have the right to disagree with me. That's how this stuff works.

DocBar
09-24-2013, 12:00 AM
what did i do? :runaway:LMAO!!!! Guilty by nickname association?

Texecutioner
09-24-2013, 12:00 AM
Go back to 2009 and look at how many games were lost due to that stat.

The offense can also have a lot to do with forming a stat like that if they struggle to keep the defense off the field.

DocBar
09-24-2013, 12:03 AM
The offense can also have a lot to do with forming a stat like that if they didn't struggled to keep the defense off the field.Agreed. Starting field position also has a major affect on that stat.
I didn't add my posts to be an end all be all stat. I added it to remind everyone that the Texans are better on O in the red zone than the defense is, even though it appears the opposite based on the Ravens game.

SchaubApologist
09-24-2013, 12:42 AM
Agreed. Starting field position also has a major affect on that stat.
I didn't add my posts to be an end all be all stat. I added it to remind everyone that the Texans are better on O in the red zone than the defense is, even though it appears the opposite based on the Ravens game.

If you are talking 2013 only.. That assessment is true:

Offense Red Zone TD % - 77.78%
Defense Red Zone TD % - 87.50%

But, using percentages 3 games into the season is misleading.

To get a better idea we can look at 2012:

Offense Red Zone TD % - 54.69%
Defense Red Zone TD % - 51.06%

I will not argue that either unit is playing up to their respective talent level, but the defense had a well above average game against Baltimore.

Either way.. We will see what this team is made of over the next 2 weeks.

MEGA SWATT
09-24-2013, 01:07 AM
The offense went down three times and only scored field goals, then gave away 7 points. Not sure I can blame the loss on the defense. Sure all three levels could have been better, but the offense put us in a position we should never have been in. I agree with Cushing.

msr

Corrosion
09-24-2013, 02:28 AM
No....changing up the gameplan, air it out more, be aggressive etc....

Unless someone other than Matt suits up, we cant air it out ...

kingtexan is spot on .... The reason the offense is designed the way it is , is to protect Schaub and mask his weaknesses.

When everything is perfect - good protection and a receiver can beat his man .... Schaub can deliver a ball in the vicinity of the receiver.


But how often is everything perfect in the NFL ?!? They run those play action passes and bootlegs specifically to get Schaub downfield opportunities , that's about the only time they do take those downfield shots.

Why ?!
Because Schaub isn't capable of throwing a pinpoint laser into coverage.
Because if the protection isn't "very good" Schaub cant read the defense .... he settles for a check down.


Never see a fade , never see a back shoulder throw and the majority of his deep balls have a ton of air under them ... with a receiver having to wait for the damn ball.

Lack of arm strength.
Lack of mobility.
Lack of pocket presence.
Not reading defenses as well as he has in the past - three picks in three games , all resulting in TD's for the opposition , two directly.


All of that is impossible to hide behind a scheme. Schaubs ship has sailed IMO.


The offense went down three times and only scored field goals, then gave away 7 points. Not sure I can blame the loss on the defense. Sure all three levels could have been better, but the offense put us in a position we should never have been in. I agree with Cushing.


Me too.

That defense is second in the league giving up 249 yards per game , second only to the SeaDucks who give up 241.7. They are also second in pass defense (157.7 ypg) also second to the SeaDucks.


Despite the score , the defense did their job Sunday - it was the not so special teams and offense who blundered away a W.

Malloy
09-24-2013, 08:16 AM
D held the Ravens to 16 points, that's OK.
Offense & ST gave up 14... that's NOT OK.
Offense scored a grand totalt of 9 points, that's NOT OK...!

To me it's pretty clear that despite 'lack of turnovers', our D manages to hold their heads up high, it's the offense that is behind... so Cushing is correct in his observations.

handswarmer
09-24-2013, 08:21 AM
Ravens defense went thru that for years with Anthony Wright, Jeff Blake and Kyle Boller at QB- they knew they weren't capable of scoring points so the defense manufactured them.

Rey
09-24-2013, 08:40 AM
I don't understand what anyone's lack of production has to do with there being members of the team that don't believe in the other units.

Kaiser Toro
09-24-2013, 09:02 AM
Would be interested in the context. However, if JJ Watt and Cushing were out of the game I could see someone on the offense telling the unit that the defense "ain't gonna do it."

thunderkyss
09-24-2013, 09:56 AM
Kareem Jackson has all the tools to become an All Pro and one of the better young corners in the league, but he is consistently caught with frustrating pass interference penalties because he's not turning around his head and playing the ball. There were a couple scoring drives by Baltimore just because of Kareem Jackson not playing smart.


We keep saying that his problem is not turning for the ball. Both instances this past Sunday, he looked at the ball.

The first, I think the problem was that he arm barred the receiver several steps before the ball got there, before he turned. That is pass interference. It's not going to get corrected if we're not identifying the right problem. I hope Van Joseph understands the call..... I'm sure he does.

The second one, he turned & looked for the ball, but his right hand was pulling down on the receiver's left arm.... that is pass interference as well.

Both are not about playing stupid, it's lack of confidence. The arm bar because he lacks the confidence to run step for step with the receiver. The second because he lacked confidence in finding the ball, or outjumping the receiver.

I'm a Kj fan, but year 4, he should have those things worked out.

FYI: I'd rather make the referee throw that flag than give up a TD, which both of those would have been, so they may very well have been smart plays... other than the fact that he was beat.

handswarmer
09-24-2013, 10:03 AM
The only tool Kareem Jackson is missing is a neck so he can turn it around to locate the ball.

thunderkyss
09-24-2013, 10:05 AM
OK. Look at the totals and make up your own mind. The Texans D sux at stopping people once they are in the red zone. The Texans O is still better than the Texans D in the red zone.

.

It doesn't matter. This is a team game. putting one against the other doesn't do anyone any good.



It's not about scoring points, or not scoring. It's about scoring more than the other team, whether we need to score 40 or 13 to make that happen, we need to make that happen to win games.

It was 17-9 Ravens at the half. The offense didn't score another point. The defense allowed 13. All the 3 & outs in the first half don't mean squat if we couldn't get them off the field in the second.... when it really mattered.

thunderkyss
09-24-2013, 10:22 AM
@ DOCBAR,

Doc, are you drinking the Kubiac Cool aid or something? You can't possibly put any of this struggles on the defense. The D has been playing better and better. Besides a couple of big plays last sunday, the Ravs got about 2.5 yards per attempt. Get a clue dude. Our offense keep going 3 and out, what do you expect the D to do? people get tired, you know?? The original post of this topic shows that Cush got frustrated, and why would he? at least he tries....so what if the D don't force the Turn over? it's not their job to score the last time I check. The Ravens scored Like 13 points when the game mattered....get with the program, dude!!

Baltimore's first possession after the half, they drove 80 yards for touchdown. Why was the defense so tired?

What was an 8 point game (17-9) now becomes a 15 point game. That's the kind of pressure that changes your whole offensive game plan. Makes some teams one dimensional.

The offense then burns 3 minutes off the clock, no score. The defense allows the Ravens 3 minutes, then punt, The Texans offense burns another 4 minutes then punts. Third Qtr is over.

The Ravens take the ball at their 30 yard line, burn 6 minutes off the clock, travel fifty-some yards & kicks a field goal. It's now an 18 point game with 9 minutes in the 4th Qtr.

At this point, neither the offense or the defense has done anything to get the Texans closer to winning this game.

We take the ball at the 20, burn 4 minutes to travel 30 yards, then turns it over on downs at the 50. It's now a 3 possesion game with 5 minutes remaining.

25 yards & 4 minutes later, the defense allows another field goal. It is now a 21 point game. We need three TDs with a minute left.

When it counted, the defense did not help us win.

When it counted, the offense did not help us win.

Corrosion
09-24-2013, 10:23 AM
I don't understand what anyone's lack of production has to do with there being members of the team that don't believe in the other units.



Me either but .... Do you believe in the offense or special teams !?!? :corrosion:

I have for a long time made excuses for Schaub & Co but this stretch of games , despite winning two of them has forced me to the conclusion that they just aint that good. Its hard to overlook the mistakes and inadequacies of this offense under Schaub.

buddyboy
09-24-2013, 10:27 AM
Baltimore's first possession after the half, they drove 80 yards for touchdown. Why was the defense so tired?

What was an 8 point game (17-9) now becomes a 15 point game. That's the kind of pressure that changes your whole offensive game plan. Makes some teams one dimensional.

The offense then burns 3 minutes off the clock, no score. The defense allows the Ravens 3 minutes, then punt, The Texans offense burns another 4 minutes then punts. Third Qtr is over.

The Ravens take the ball at their 30 yard line, burn 6 minutes off the clock, travel fifty-some yards & kicks a field goal. It's now an 18 point game with 9 minutes in the 4th Qtr.

At this point, neither the offense or the defense has done anything to get the Texans closer to winning this game.

We take the ball at the 20, burn 4 minutes to travel 30 yards, then turns it over on downs at the 50. It's now a 3 possesion game with 5 minutes remaining.

25 yards & 4 minutes later, the defense allows another field goal. It is now a 21 point game. We need three TDs with a minute left.

When it counted, the defense did not help us win.

When it counted, the offense did not help us win.

I disagree with a lot of your takes...but I have to say, you are one of the most level headed posters here. msr.

cstyle42
09-24-2013, 10:33 AM
"... we gotta do something, they ain't going to do it"

That sounds like something that Foster, Daniels or Hopkins might have been saying about the defense, just about the time that JJo was drawing a taunting penalty, Flacco was drawing Cushing offsides and KJ was getting one interference call after another.

Cushing has more touchdowns than Andre Johnson right now and just as many as Foster.

Rey
09-24-2013, 11:12 AM
Baltimore's first possession after the half, they drove 80 yards for touchdown. Why was the defense so tired?

What was an 8 point game (17-9) now becomes a 15 point game. That's the kind of pressure that changes your whole offensive game plan. Makes some teams one dimensional.

You know what changes your offensive game plan? Pick six's and not scoring many points.

Bringing up the defense is like complaining about a papercut when you just got shot in the face.

The offense scored 9 points. 9 points. Gave up 7.

The offense and defense were not equal on sunday. One was obviously MUCH worse.

Lucky said it best. Defense could have pitched a shutout and we still lose.

Dread-Head
09-24-2013, 11:18 AM
You know what changes your offensive game plan? Pick six's and not scoring many points.

Bringing up the defense is like complaining about a papercut when you just got shot in the face.

The offense scored 9 points. 9 points. Gave up 7.

The offense and defense were not equal on sunday. One was obviously MUCH worse.

Lucky said it best. Defense could have pitched a shutout and we still lose.

:spit: :lol: DAMN IT! You made Coffee come out of my nose!

Carr Bombed
09-24-2013, 12:25 PM
And the defense didn't do it, either. Nice story. You should've started it as "once upon a time".

Nuff said.

I'm not buying that. They DID do it. How many three and outs did they force.. to me that's as good as a TO, because it sets your offense up with good field position and what did the offense do with that excellent field position? Not a damn thing. The defense did their job against the Ravens, did they give up some plays.. yes they did, but that's how today's game is now. The rules are geared towards helping the offense and a competent offense should be able to move the ball against any defense during spurts of the game. The Ravens were able to make enough plays.. our offense wasn't.. ball game.

That loss was not on the defense, the defense was the only facet of the team that showed up on Sunday. The offense and STs (outside of our punter) never even made it off the plane.

thunderkyss
09-24-2013, 01:06 PM
You know what changes your offensive game plan? Pick six's and not scoring many points.

Bringing up the defense is like complaining about a papercut when you just got shot in the face.

The offense scored 9 points. 9 points. Gave up 7.

The offense and defense were not equal on sunday. One was obviously MUCH worse.

Lucky said it best. Defense could have pitched a shutout and we still lose.

How many 3 & outs did they pitch after half-time? They allowed 13 points after half time. That was not good enough to win the game.

The offense stunk it up. Didn't score a point in the second half.... I'm not denying that. But the offense didn't win any games this year. The defense didn't win any games this year.

It's a team sport & they've got to work hand in hand. If the defense gives up 28 points in the first three qtrs, the offense has to score 28+ in the forth to win the game.

If the offense had packed it in & said, "Well, the defense gave up 28 points in the first three qtrs.... let's call it a day." Are we going to blame the offense for only scoring 7 points?

If they scored 21 points would we say, "The offense did their job, the defense gave up 28."

The defense played well enough to win in the first half. Can't say the same about the second half.

Rey
09-24-2013, 01:19 PM
How many 3 & outs did they pitch after half-time? They allowed 13 points after half time. That was not good enough to win the game.

Short of getting a turnover and scoring themselves, nothing they could have done was "good enough to win".

Really it's just slight of hand to point fingers at the defense. We lost the game because the offense did nothing and special teams gave up points.

Surreal McCoy
09-24-2013, 01:20 PM
I don't think it's really much of a topic. I saw a complete breakdown in nearly every facet of the game. Bullock was oddly enough the only guy who got it done. So Cushing can see that the offense is crapping the bed. It's not like the defense didn't crap the bed too. Special teams can't say anything to either one because they crapped the bed as well.

Coaches. Crap everywhere.

Complete failure almost across the board. If they want to start calling each other out and pointing fingers after week three then it's going to be a long ugly season and I'm not ready to start talking about the draft just yet.

Have to say I rarely agree with Herv, but this is absolutely spot on. Preach on!

Carr Bombed
09-24-2013, 01:21 PM
How many 3 & outs did they pitch after half-time? They allowed 13 points after half time. That was not good enough to win the game.

The offense stunk it up. Didn't score a point in the second half.... I'm not denying that. But the offense didn't win any games this year. The defense didn't win any games this year.

It's a team sport & they've got to work hand in hand. If the defense gives up 28 points in the first three qtrs, the offense has to score 28+ in the forth to win the game.

If the offense had packed it in & said, "Well, the defense gave up 28 points in the first three qtrs.... let's call it a day." Are we going to blame the offense for only scoring 7 points?

If they scored 21 points would we say, "The offense did their job, the defense gave up 28."

The defense played well enough to win in the first half. Can't say the same about the second half.

The Ravens scored 30 points... Out of those thirty points Schaub and our STs gift wrapped 14 points for them.. So the defense only gave up 16 points on the road.

Sorry, but regardless of what happened in the second half.. I'll take that all day long and with the talent we have on offense, we should be able to win every game if our defense only gives up 16 points.

And if our offense could've pulled their head out of their ass and took advantage of the field position supplied by our defense we could've jumped on the Ravens early and built a big lead.. thus taking the Ravens out of their game plan, thus making it even easier on our defense in the second half.

Like what has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread. The defense could've pitched a shut out and Houston still would've lost this game. The defense was not to blame for the loss on Sunday.. The offense sucked and the defense was the only reason why the Ravens didn't hang a 50 burger on us after all the gifts and points our STs and offense kept handing them.

thunderkyss
09-24-2013, 01:23 PM
Short of getting a turnover and scoring themselves, nothing they could have done was "good enough to win".

Really it's just slight of hand to point fingers at the defense. We lost the game because the offense did nothing and special teams gave up points.

I'm not pointing fingers. I believe there's enough blame to go around.

Carr Bombed
09-24-2013, 01:35 PM
I'm not pointing fingers. I believe there's enough blame to go around.

You're right.. and if I was going to point blame at the defense, I'll sum up their performance as "they didn't win us the game, but they didn't lose the game for us either".

The STs (in Herv's words) crapped the bed "AGAIN", like they do every week and have done for a couple years now and helped lose the game.

The offense.. mainly Schaub and the offensive line crapped everywhere and lost us the game.

So if I'm going by that assessment, only one unit looked decent. Giving up only 16 points is considered a win in today's league and like I said before... I'll take that every week... except for when we play Jacksonville.

deucetx
09-24-2013, 01:42 PM
You're right.. and if I was going to point blame at the defense, I'll sum up their performance as "they didn't win us the game, but they didn't lose the game for us either".

The STs (in Herv's words) crapped the bed "AGAIN", like they do every week and have done for a couple years now and helped lose the game.

The offense.. mainly Schaub and the offensive line crapped everywhere and lost us the game.

So if I'm going by that assessment, only one unit look decent. Giving up only 16 points is considered a win in today's league and like I said before... I'll take that every week... except for when we play Jacksonville.

Have to completely agree. Not to mention, I don't know who played or not before, but it is rather draining and frustrating when you're doing your part and another side of the ball isn't. Just think how it felt going in at halftime and as a defense you held the opposition to 3 point and a total of 65 freaking yards but you're losing? That's just ridiculous and a momentum killer for a unit of a team. Any that walked those shoes know the thoughts that go through their head during such a time.

And believe me...it isn't coach speak lol. You begin pressing and it showed in the penalties, especially the neutral zone infractions.

Rey
09-24-2013, 01:55 PM
The Ravens scored 30 points... Out of those thirty points Schaub and our STs gift wrapped 14 points for them.. So the defense only gave up 16 points on the road.

That's it in a nutshell.

If before the game.... Hell before any game...if you say ill guarantee the other offense only scores 16 points, would you take it?

My answer would be hell yeah.

HOU-TEX
09-24-2013, 02:20 PM
I know this argument is moot due to being offensively inept, but if one was to point a finger at a defensive flaw it would be allowing 13 of the 16 points after the 2 TDs. The D gave up the TD drive to open the half would've been a back breaker had our offense been able to do anything.

Overall, it was a fail. Offense sucked, ST sucked, penalties out the ying yang and a stupid TO.

*Side note: I would've seriously considered benching JJo for the taunting. I mean, seriously?!

Carr Bombed
09-24-2013, 02:31 PM
I know this argument is moot due to being offensively inept, but if one was to point a finger at a defensive flaw it would be allowing 13 of the 16 points after the 2 TDs. The D gave up the TD drive to open the half would've been a back breaker had our offense been able to do anything.

Overall, it was a fail. Offense sucked, ST sucked, penalties out the ying yang and a stupid TO.

*Side note: I would've seriously considered benching JJo for the taunting. I mean, seriously?!

I think if Schaub comes out next week and throws another horrible INT (not just any int, because they do happen.. I'm talking about one that illustrates horrible decision making like last week) Kubiak needs to park his ass on the bench. I'm not calling for him to permanently lose his job yet (although I'm almost there), but a message needs to be at least sent to him that his starting job is not just a foregone conclusion, he's not just entitled to that position, and there will be consequences for his ****ty play and bonehead decisions.


... but I don't expect Kubiak to ever do this, I don't think he has the stones.

2012Champs
09-24-2013, 02:34 PM
Maybe he just happend to be talking about his secondary while watching the game

Hervoyel
09-24-2013, 02:37 PM
I think if Schaub comes out next week and throws another horrible INT (not just any int, because they do happen.. I'm talking about one that illustrates horrible decision making like last week) Kubiak needs to park his ass on the bench. I'm not calling for him to permanently lose his job yet (although I'm almost there), but a message needs to be at least sent to him that his starting job is not just a foregone conclusion, he's not just entitled to that position, and there will be consequences for his ****ty play and bonehead decisions.


... but I don't expect Kubiak to ever do this, I don't think he has the stones.


Warren Moon got benched for playing with head up ass and he's in the HOF. Sometimes guys need to sit down and make an assessment of what they're doing and what's going on around them. Sometimes guys just need to sit down and watch for a bit. Put everything in perspective so to speak.

If Schaub throws another WTF pick then I agree with you. It might be time to see what Yates got out of being pushed by Keenum this summer. Most likely you end up sitting him back down like the Oilers did with Cody Carlson but it serves a purpose nonetheless.

HOU-TEX
09-24-2013, 02:39 PM
I think if Schaub comes out next week and throws another horrible INT (not just any int, because they do happen.. I'm talking about one that illustrates horrible decision making like last week) Kubiak needs to park his ass on the bench. I'm not calling for him to permanently lose his job yet (although I'm almost there), but a message needs to be at least sent to him that his starting job is not just a foregone conclusion, he's not just entitled to that position, and there will be consequences for his ****ty play and bonehead decisions.


... but I don't expect Kubiak to ever do this, I don't think he has the stones.

Agreed! He's normally good for at least one bone-headed play. They may not all lead to TDs, but bone-headed none the less

And you're right, Kubiak won't bench him. They're tied together and will likely go down together. I was kinda pissed he pulled him at the end of the game. "You reap what you sow" = Keep your ass in there and deal with what you helped create

Rey
09-24-2013, 02:50 PM
I think if Schaub comes out next week and throws another horrible INT (not just any int, because they do happen.. I'm talking about one that illustrates horrible decision making like last week) Kubiak needs to park his ass on the bench. I'm not calling for him to permanently lose his job yet (although I'm almost there), but a message needs to be at least sent to him that his starting job is not just a foregone conclusion, he's not just entitled to that position, and there will be consequences for his ****ty play and bonehead decisions.


... but I don't expect Kubiak to ever do this, I don't think he has the stones.

Not just to him, but the team needs that message. They need to know everyone will be held accountable and that the coach will do whatever it takes to win.

Porky
09-24-2013, 02:57 PM
I'm with Carr Bombed as well.

I've been a Schaub supporter and defender but enough is enough. I've had it. He just is on this fantastic slippery slide to a land I call Carr and Gabbert world. It's a place we don't want to go.

I would easily take 2007 MS over 2013 MS. Inexperienced, but much better than today's MS. Since the middle of last year, he's just on this incredible downward spiral. There have been hints here or there of the old MS showing up, but those moments are rare. His trend looks like a stock market index on the way down. Small upticks followed by a larger downward trend.

At this point, he isn't earning his paycheck. I'm ready to cut ties after this season. He's had 7 injury plagued seasons to try and get it done and he has now proven he cannot. We need to draft a young QB and let him sit on the bench while Yates or Keenum plays a year. Ya I know what that means. So be it.

I think the LisFranc injury is playing a much larger role than anyone knows - but that is mere speculation. Whatever it is, right now he is in the bottom half dozen of starters in the league and that won't get it done.

This season is basically toast already. Anyone who sees a SB team here needs glasses. We don't have the 2000 Ravens D. We can't have Blaine Gabbert and expect to win a SB. We might slip into the playoffs, although I am no longer certain about that, but we'll just get killed by a QB that can actually play. :smiliepalm:

SchaubApologist
09-24-2013, 02:57 PM
That's it in a nutshell.

If before the game.... Hell before any game...if you say ill guarantee the other offense only scores 16 points, would you take it?

My answer would be hell yeah.

16 points is too much!!! That's a whopping 4 points per quarter. Not even the broncos could overcome that! :/

thunderkyss
09-24-2013, 03:00 PM
You're right.. and if I was going to point blame at the defense, I'll sum up their performance as "they didn't win us the game, but they didn't lose the game for us either".

The STs (in Herv's words) crapped the bed "AGAIN", like they do every week and have done for a couple years now and helped lose the game.

The offense.. mainly Schaub and the offensive line crapped everywhere and lost us the game.

So if I'm going by that assessment, only one unit looked decent. Giving up only 16 points is considered a win in today's league and like I said before... I'll take that every week... except for when we play Jacksonville.

& giving up 28, then 24 is also considered a loss. The offense didn't whine about it, they went out & scored 31 & 30 to win the game.

A three & out in the second half would have been great.... I don't know that the offense would have scored. I'm thinking they wouldn't have the way they looked. But the point remains. Time & the score was against us in the second half & the defense didn't help.

They gave up 13 points in a half. That can't be considered good football. We can't expect our team to give up 26 points a game & win many games.

They played their a55 off in the first half. Not so much in the second half. The exact opposite of what they did vs San Diego & Tennessee.

Rey
09-24-2013, 03:18 PM
& giving up 28, then 24 is also considered a loss. The offense didn't whine about it, they went out & scored 31 & 30 to win.

If you don't remember those crucial picks in those games it's no wonder you're defending the offense so tough.

Hint: units other than defense have contributed to the point totals for other teams.

Against the chargers, the offense pretty much gave up 7 and the defense scored 7.

That's a 14 point swing. Game is never even close if offense isn't giving it up like a cheap hooker on Saturday night.

Bulls on Parade
09-24-2013, 03:20 PM
Porky, I don't know about Yates or Keenum starting for a year like you suggest. If those were the only options, I'd rather sign a free agent quarterback with more experience. Josh Freeman may become available next off-season. He's still young enough (25) to grasp what Kubiak likes to do. Dare I even say a name like Tim Tebow? Just kidding.

thunderkyss
09-24-2013, 03:25 PM
If you don't remember those crucial picks in those games it's no wonder you're defending the offense so tough.


I'm not defending the offense. They sucked.

If I'm Wade Phillips, I'm not very happy with my defense right now. They gave up 13 points in a half. That's unacceptable.

If I'm Rick Dennison, I'm not very happy with my offense. They struggled to put points on the board, they didn't protect their QB, they committed too many penalties. That's unacceptable.

If I'm Kubiak, I'm planning for life after football.

Rey
09-24-2013, 03:27 PM
& giving up 28, then 24 is also considered a loss. The offense didn't whine about it, they went out & scored 31 & 30 to win the game.

A three & out in the second half would have been great.... I don't know that the offense would have scored. I'm thinking they wouldn't have the way they looked. But the point remains. Time & the score was against us in the second half & the defense didn't help.

They gave up 13 points in a half. That can't be considered good football. We can't expect our team to give up 26 points a game & win many games.

They played their a55 off in the first half. Not so much in the second half. The exact opposite of what they did vs San Diego & Tennessee.



Ok, so if the offense scores 50 points... Defense gives up 51 through 3 quarters...

4th quarter comes. Offense can't score. Defense pitches a shut out "when we need it".

You're telling me, you're going to say it's an issue that the offense didn't score in that last quarter?

2012Champs
09-24-2013, 03:33 PM
I'm with Carr Bombed as well.

I've been a Schaub supporter and defender but enough is enough. I've had it. He just is on this fantastic slippery slide to a land I call Carr and Gabbert world. It's a place we don't want to go.

I would easily take 2007 MS over 2013 MS. Inexperienced, but much better than today's MS. Since the middle of last year, he's just on this incredible downward spiral. There have been hints here or there of the old MS showing up, but those moments are rare. His trend looks like a stock market index on the way down. Small upticks followed by a larger downward trend.

At this point, he isn't earning his paycheck. I'm ready to cut ties after this season. He's had 7 injury plagued seasons to try and get it done and he has now proven he cannot. We need to draft a young QB and let him sit on the bench while Yates or Keenum plays a year. Ya I know what that means. So be it.

I think the LisFranc injury is playing a much larger role than anyone knows - but that is mere speculation. Whatever it is, right now he is in the bottom half dozen of starters in the league and that won't get it done.

This season is basically toast already. Anyone who sees a SB team here needs glasses. We don't have the 2000 Ravens D. We can't have Blaine Gabbert and expect to win a SB. We might slip into the playoffs, although I am no longer certain about that, but we'll just get killed by a QB that can actually play. :smiliepalm:




Carr or Gabbert? Get real. When you cant stay the least bit object or rational credibility is lost

Double Barrel
09-24-2013, 03:52 PM
If the defense is guilty of anything, it's not playing like the '85 Bears defense and carrying this anemic offense and special special teams unit on their backs to victory.

People like to rationalize that Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl in support of Schaub. Well, if that example is to have any merit, then the Texans defense is going to have to win games on sheer determination and willpower alone.

Right now this is an 8-8 team that would be lucky to back into a wildcard spot.

Porky
09-24-2013, 05:12 PM
Porky, I don't know about Yates or Keenum starting for a year like you suggest. If those were the only options, I'd rather sign a free agent quarterback with more experience. Josh Freeman may become available next off-season. He's still young enough (25) to grasp what Kubiak likes to do. Dare I even say a name like Tim Tebow? Just kidding.

I'm not a big Freeman fan. I don't see that as a huge upgrade although he is more mobile. I would rather go with one of the guys we have, and draft a young QB that we can groom. And if Kubiak doesn't catch up with the 21st century, none of it will matter.

thunderkyss
09-24-2013, 05:22 PM
You're telling me, you're going to say it's an issue that the offense didn't score in that last quarter?

The only thing that matters is Wins & Losses. Doesn't matter how you win. 43-8, 6-3.... it's all the same. If we start the 4th qtr down 49-55, then get to the final seconds & the score is still 49-55, yes it is an issue that we didn't score at all in the final qtr. Same thing if it's 50-51. I expect my offense to be able to get down the field & score a field goal. I can't think of any scenario that would make that an impossibility.


That's not the only problem I have with the game. I'm very pleased with my offensive performance through the first three qtrs, but those guys aren't getting the day off tomorrow for not playing 4 qtrs.

Just like last year, no one gave a sht that we started 11-1. When it mattered, we finished the season 1-3

I'm not letting the offense off the hook for not scoring in the second half. I'm still chewing their a55es out for failing to get into the end zone in the first half. While I'm doing that, I expect Wade to be chewing out the defense for allowing 13 points in the second half.

But to win that game, we needed 3 & Outs. We got none. Knocking the ball out of Flacco's hand was great, we needed the defense to get the ball. We would have had the ball on their 25 to start the 3rd & they wouldn't have gone 80 yards the other way scoring a touchdown. Forcing the Ravens to kick a field goal was nice, but we needed Manning to make that interception.

If you were the defensive coordinator for the Texans, you're telling me you're pleased with what your unit did in the second half?

bOODRO87
09-24-2013, 05:48 PM
This game was somewhat similar to the New England playoff game in a sense, IMO. The defense made the game winnable all the way into the 3rd quarter, but the offense could never give them a rest because of going three and out/punting or a costly INT. Schaub can't bail out Kubiak's play calling with his athleticism if the play breaks and Kubiak can't bail out the offense with his creativity. :smiliepalm:

Cushing was on the money with that comment. He plays the game like it should be played.

amazing80
09-24-2013, 07:19 PM
The only thing that matters is Wins & Losses. Doesn't matter how you win. 43-8, 6-3.... it's all the same. If we start the 4th qtr down 49-55, then get to the final seconds & the score is still 49-55, yes it is an issue that we didn't score at all in the final qtr. Same thing if it's 50-51. I expect my offense to be able to get down the field & score a field goal. I can't think of any scenario that would make that an impossibility.


That's not the only problem I have with the game. I'm very pleased with my offensive performance through the first three qtrs, but those guys aren't getting the day off tomorrow for not playing 4 qtrs.

Just like last year, no one gave a sht that we started 11-1. When it mattered, we finished the season 1-3

I'm not letting the offense off the hook for not scoring in the second half. I'm still chewing their a55es out for failing to get into the end zone in the first half. While I'm doing that, I expect Wade to be chewing out the defense for allowing 13 points in the second half.

But to win that game, we needed 3 & Outs. We got none. Knocking the ball out of Flacco's hand was great, we needed the defense to get the ball. We would have had the ball on their 25 to start the 3rd & they wouldn't have gone 80 yards the other way scoring a touchdown. Forcing the Ravens to kick a field goal was nice, but we needed Manning to make that interception.

If you were the defensive coordinator for the Texans, you're telling me you're pleased with what your unit did in the second half?

You're line of thought is so jaded its ridiculous, youre basically saying our defense didn't carry us to victory therefore they didn't do their job. Thats dumb.....they dominated that game and saying anything other than that is ludicrous. No **** they didn't get a stop late in the game, they kept being put on the field because our offense wasn't sustaining drives or getting points. Not to mention the special teams. The defense was on the sidelines, then their down 7, offense goes 3 and out and defense is ready to do something but BOOM, 7 more points from a punt. The defense gives up ONE TOUCHDOWN and all of a sudden its THEIR fault we didn't win? Dumb.

Quit justifying the **** play by Schaub and the offense. They are CLEARLY the problem on this team followed by special teams. Settling for fgs instead of tds has been a problem since Gary has been here. Schaub and Gary are made for one another, both passive bitches who let people walk all over them.

thunderkyss
09-24-2013, 08:03 PM
You're line of thought is so jaded its ridiculous, youre basically saying our defense didn't carry us to victory therefore they didn't do their job. Thats dumb.....they dominated that game and saying anything other than that is ludicrous. No **** they didn't get a stop late in the game, they kept being put on the field because our offense wasn't sustaining drives or getting points. Not to mention the special teams. The defense was on the sidelines, then their down 7, offense goes 3 and out and defense is ready to do something but BOOM, 7 more points from a punt. The defense gives up ONE TOUCHDOWN and all of a sudden its THEIR fault we didn't win? Dumb.


That all happened in the first half. The defense was off the field for at least 10 minutes during half time. They opened the half by allowing the Ravens to go 80 yards & score a TD.

Keep in mind I am not saying it is the defenses fault that we lost the game.

Let's put it this way. We scored 31 points against the Chargers, gave up 28. Did we win that game because the offense played great? The offense did their job? Because we went into the 4th qtr down by 21 points. The offense played great for 1 qtr, what happened the other three?

Same thing here. The defense played great in the first half. Not so much in the second half. The offense never played good enough.





Quit justifying the **** play by Schaub and the offense. They are CLEARLY the problem on this team followed by special teams. Settling for fgs instead of tds has been a problem since Gary has been here. Schaub and Gary are made for one another, both passive bitches who let people walk all over them.

I wish there was just one problem on this team.

SchaubApologist
09-24-2013, 08:34 PM
That all happened in the first half. The defense was off the field for at least 10 minutes during half time. They opened the half by allowing the Ravens to go 80 yards & score a TD.

Keep in mind I am not saying it is the defenses fault that we lost the game.

Let's put it this way. We scored 31 points against the Chargers, gave up 28. Did we win that game because the offense played great? The offense did their job? Because we went into the 4th qtr down by 21 points. The offense played great for 1 qtr, what happened the other three?

Same thing here. The defense played great in the first half. Not so much in the second half. The offense never played good enough.




I wish there was just one problem on this team.

I think I finally understand what you are getting at:

The Offense: Sucks
The Defense: Sucks
The Special Teams: Sucks

While I do not agree that the defense is sucking it up, I agree with you on the offense and ST.

mmwest
09-24-2013, 09:39 PM
I can't believe I read through 5 pages of us debating offense vs defense. I think them(Off. and Def.) plus ST's - Lechler have all sucked since week 12 last year. People soon forget we couldn't beat the Vikings or the Colts to secure fricken homefeild advantage through the playoffs. You can forget that happening this year or who knows when. That was a gift we lost. This team has all the weapons minus GK,MS and Marciano to get us where we need to go. I garuantee you we would do better without the above mentioned.

busterspencer
09-24-2013, 10:00 PM
The offense went down three times and only scored field goals, then gave away 7 points. Not sure I can blame the loss on the defense. Sure all three levels could have been better, but the offense put us in a position we should never have been in. I agree with Cushing.

And did they go out and get a turnover and score....NO case rest

thunderkyss
09-24-2013, 10:52 PM
That was a gift we lost. This team has all the weapons minus GK,MS and Marciano to get us where we need to go. I garuantee you we would do better without the above mentioned.

Honest question..... has our ST been that bad this year? I don't recall a lot of penalties on ST since the regular season. I couldn't get over how many penalties the Ravens had on ST. That got me thinking.

Other than that TD (which wasn't good) I feel like our ST has been avg, which is an improvement isn't it? & the TD, wasn't a breakdown in coverage. The pictures & gif we've seen here show the players were there, they just didn't execute. If we were talking about scrub players I'd be upset, but we're talking about Dj, Braman, Sharpton, & Keo. Our ST aces.

Texan_Bill
09-24-2013, 10:58 PM
Unless someone other than Matt suits up, we cant air it out ...

Not true.... Sunday was a bi-product of the Texans gameplan being super worried about Duane Brown being out of the game. They had little (if any) faith in Brandon Harris and BTW Derrick Newton hasn't been impressive on the right side.

To say that Matt can't "air it out", is short sided, at best.

BUT, if it fits your agenda, well..... so be it!

silvrhand
09-25-2013, 07:37 AM
The only thing that matters is Wins & Losses.

This is true to a point, we look like a ****ty 2-1 team, and you are what you are, a bit lucky, and eventually lucky teams will have their luck run out.

- Matt looked great the first game, totally happy with that game, thought he had gotten over the hump.
- Matt looked horrible against TN, overthrowing the ball, badly off target, and the pic 6 was into double coverage on a separate page from his receiver.
- Baltimore.. Ugh he's so slow again, staring down his main receiver, and off target again, now people are going to point at oh look he's 75% completion ratio. How many swing passes did he complete, after going 5-5 on the first series he just didn't look good at all.

Now yes some of it is the offensive line, but he still has to find a way to make it work.

I can't see how you can blame the defense other than the SD game, but then again San Diego has been lighting everyone up.

On Defense we simply need a real OLB that's going to get the the QB, and JJ has to play better.

thunderkyss
09-25-2013, 07:48 AM
I can't see how you can blame the defense other than the SD game, but then again San Diego has been lighting everyone up.


I don't understand why people keep saying I'm blaming the defense. I'm not blaming the defense, just pointing out that we've got problems on the defensive side of the ball as well.

Your post, you're saying people are going to point to Schaub's 75% completion rating & 7 TDs thrown saying, "Look, Schaub is having a great year." Knowing those stats don't tell the whole story.

Same thing here, we're saying, "The defense gave up 16 points in this game, that's good enough to win." But that's not what happened, they gave up 13 points in a half. That's not winning football. They gave up 21 points in the first half of the Chargers game. That's looking a lot like the defense that didn't show up against New England. (42 points). They gave up a 99 yard drive for a touchdown to Jake Locker.

The offense suked.... has suked all year, except in small spurts. That's a problem, a big problem. But there ain't a bigger paper tiger in Houston than the #2 defense that's ranked 26th in points allowed.

Scooter
09-25-2013, 07:54 AM
Honest question..... has our ST been that bad this year? I don't recall a lot of penalties on ST since the regular season. I couldn't get over how many penalties the Ravens had on ST. That got me thinking.

Other than that TD (which wasn't good) I feel like our ST has been avg, which is an improvement isn't it? & the TD, wasn't a breakdown in coverage. The pictures & gif we've seen here show the players were there, they just didn't execute. If we were talking about scrub players I'd be upset, but we're talking about Dj, Braman, Sharpton, & Keo. Our ST aces.

when given the chance, yes they've been pretty bad. fortunately bulluck is putting most kickoffs deep and we have the best punter in football. everything else has been ugly.

amazing80
09-25-2013, 08:37 AM
I don't understand why people keep saying I'm blaming the defense. I'm not blaming the defense, just pointing out that we've got problems on the defensive side of the ball as well.

Your post, you're saying people are going to point to Schaub's 75% completion rating & 7 TDs thrown saying, "Look, Schaub is having a great year." Knowing those stats don't tell the whole story.

Same thing here, we're saying, "The defense gave up 16 points in this game, that's good enough to win." But that's not what happened, they gave up 13 points in a half. That's not winning football. They gave up 21 points in the first half of the Chargers game. That's looking a lot like the defense that didn't show up against New England. (42 points). They gave up a 99 yard drive for a touchdown to Jake Locker.

The offense suked.... has suked all year, except in small spurts. That's a problem, a big problem. But there ain't a bigger paper tiger in Houston than the #2 defense that's ranked 26th in points allowed.

Your skewing the stats. The team is ranked 26th in points given up. Not just the defense. 3 touchdowns were direct results of the offense and special teams. where does that rank the defense now? Top 10 that's where

Rey
09-25-2013, 09:03 AM
I don't understand why people keep saying I'm blaming the defense. I'm not blaming the defense, just pointing out that we've got problems on the defensive side of the ball as well.

Your post, you're saying people are going to point to Schaub's 75% completion rating & 7 TDs thrown saying, "Look, Schaub is having a great year." Knowing those stats don't tell the whole story.

Same thing here, we're saying, "The defense gave up 16 points in this game, that's good enough to win." But that's not what happened, they gave up 13 points in a half. That's not winning football. They gave up 21 points in the first half of the Chargers game. That's looking a lot like the defense that didn't show up against New England. (42 points). They gave up a 99 yard drive for a touchdown to Jake Locker.

The offense suked.... has suked all year, except in small spurts. That's a problem, a big problem. But there ain't a bigger paper tiger in Houston than the #2 defense that's ranked 26th in points allowed.


It sounds like you're out of touch with reality. The reason so many people disagree is because it's that bad of a take. It's hard to even argue it at this point because it's like you're in a different reality. You've even gotten to where you are misrepresenting stats. Obvious stats.

You keep trying to put the defenses performance on par with the offenses from this past game and it's such a weird take that I'd accuse you of trolling if I didn't know better.

handswarmer
09-25-2013, 09:26 AM
When Your Offense scores TD's 77.8% of the time in the Red Zone (8th in the NFL)

But your Defense gives up TD's 87.5% of the time in the Red Zone (32nd in the NFL),

Cushing shouldn't be "calling out" anyone.....

handswarmer
09-25-2013, 09:39 AM
Your skewing the stats. The team is ranked 26th in points given up. Not just the defense. 3 touchdowns were direct results of the offense and special teams. where does that rank the defense now? Top 10 that's where

According to NFL rules, there is a change in possession. That is very important because it helps answer this question. A blocked kick is a kicked blocked by the defense, not special teams. A kick that crosses the line of scrimmage and is then returned for a touchdown is a special teams TD.

bOODRO87
09-25-2013, 09:39 AM
When Your Offense scores TD's 77.8% of the time in the Red Zone (8th in the NFL)

But your Defense gives up TD's 87.5% of the time in the Red Zone (32nd in the NFL),

Cushing shouldn't be "calling out" anyone.....

Our Third down conversions on offense = 15/42.

handswarmer
09-25-2013, 09:43 AM
Our Third down conversions on offense = 15/42.

36%- tied with SF for 19th in the league.

So right now it looks like Field position is a big help to Texans offense.

thunderkyss
09-25-2013, 01:29 PM
It doesn't matter. This is a team game. putting one against the other doesn't do anyone any good.



They both sucked.

tedr
09-25-2013, 01:56 PM
When Your Offense scores TD's 77.8% of the time in the Red Zone (8th in the NFL)

But your Defense gives up TD's 87.5% of the time in the Red Zone (32nd in the NFL),

Cushing shouldn't be "calling out" anyone.....

In my opinion, he can. Since the first half of the San Diego game, the defense has been playing well. By all rights, Houston should have been up at least 9-3 at halftime. Through no fault of the defense, they were down 17-9. Perhaps they started taking too many chances in the second half, perhaps they were tired, I don't know. The bottom line is this: the defense has essentially given up 21, 14, and 16 points in their three games, an average of 17 points a game, while giving up the second fewest yards in the league. I'll take that performance every single time. They need to create more turnovers- that's true. However, they have definitely done their part. The offense needs to step up. I hope they do.

Bulls on Parade
09-25-2013, 02:39 PM
The bottom line is this: the defense has essentially given up 21, 14, and 16 points in their three games, an average of 17 points a game, while giving up the second fewest yards in the league. I'll take that performance every single time. They need to create more turnovers- that's true. However, they have definitely done their part. The offense needs to step up. I hope they do.
A big part of that is going to be the running game coming alive. Ben Tate has done an excellent job in limited carries. We need Arian Foster to start running like we expect him to. Breaking off some bigger runs consistently. We need one of those 20 carries, 130 rushing yards and 2 TD games out of him just to jump start his 2013 season.

Even though the Seahawks have an active defense, this may be the first game this season that he breaks the 100-yard rushing mark. Or even the 80-yard rushing mark for that matter. He's been that bad so far this season, averaging 3.9 yards per carry which is not good enough for one of the best running backs in the league. A few big runs is all he needs to dominate again.

HJam72
09-25-2013, 02:53 PM
Texans D is currently 2nd BEHIND THE SEAHAWKS in yards allowed.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&tabSeq=2&season=2013&role=OPP&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TOTAL_YARDS&qualified=true

Texans O is currently 7th in yards gained.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=TOTAL_YARDS&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2013&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

The problems are Marciano & Pick-6's.

drs23
09-25-2013, 04:22 PM
I think if Schaub comes out next week and throws another horrible INT (not just any int, because they do happen.. I'm talking about one that illustrates horrible decision making like last week) Kubiak needs to park his ass on the bench. I'm not calling for him to permanently lose his job yet (although I'm almost there), but a message needs to be at least sent to him that his starting job is not just a foregone conclusion, he's not just entitled to that position, and there will be consequences for his ****ty play and bonehead decisions.


... but I don't expect Kubiak to ever do this, I don't think he has the stones.

Agree with your entire post but the bolded especially.

handswarmer
09-26-2013, 01:50 PM
In my opinion, he can. Since the first half of the San Diego game, the defense has been playing well. By all rights, Houston should have been up at least 9-3 at halftime. Through no fault of the defense, they were down 17-9. Perhaps they started taking too many chances in the second half, perhaps they were tired, I don't know. The bottom line is this: the defense has essentially given up 21, 14, and 16 points in their three games, an average of 17 points a game, while giving up the second fewest yards in the league. I'll take that performance every single time. They need to create more turnovers- that's true. However, they have definitely done their part. The offense needs to step up. I hope they do.

Yards Given up or Gained doesn't mean squat if you can't score.

RedZone Defense is bad- Cushing should be barking about that right now.

Carr Bombed
09-26-2013, 03:17 PM
Yards Given up or Gained doesn't mean squat if you can't score.

RedZone Defense is bad- Cushing should be barking about that right now.

You're right, I mean it's not like he's made the biggest play so far or anything.. or is a main reason why this team has a winning record right now.. and we all know he's completely responsible for the entire output of the entire defense. :rolleyes: Cushing can say whatever the hell he wants right now, especially when he's speaking the truth.

handswarmer
09-26-2013, 05:25 PM
You're right, I mean it's not like he's made the biggest play so far or anything.. or is a main reason why this team has a winning record right now.. and we all know he's completely responsible for the entire output of the entire defense. :rolleyes: Cushing can say whatever the hell he wants right now, especially when he's speaking the truth.

Great quotes for a Leadership course.....said no one ever

Carr Bombed
09-27-2013, 12:01 AM
Great quotes for a Leadership course.....said no one ever

Oh, you mean like when the offense fails and J.J. Watt yells at his defensive teammates and says.. "Put it on the D, we can handle it!" And I'm sure that's not all he says while he sits on the sideline and watches his offense lay a egg :rolleyes:

Stop being so naive. Do you really think that the Colts teams who were carried by Peyton and the offense just sat there and watched their midget defensive squad get cut through like butter year after year and watched them give up 375 rushing yards to the likes of the Jags and had no negative comments about their counterparts? Or the Bucs and Rob Johnson's offense.. Ravens with Anthony Wright, Jeff Blake and Kyle Boller (your words) or even at times with Trent Dilfer.. Or "gasp" The Texans a few years back when the offense had to carry defenses that couldn't even stop a sloth from getting behind their defense and scoring against their secondary.

What Cushing said happens on every freaking sideline of a team that has one side of the ball carrying the water for the whole team (especially when your special teams suck) and I don't really care what the heck the "redzone %" is.. Fact is since Wade and Cushing/Watt got here, more often than not Kubiak and his offense have become accustomed to rely on them and they're the ones left carrying the water more often than not and have been this year.

Only difference is Cushing got caught on tape saying what he said. It doesn't make him a "bad leader" or a "bad teammate" (by that sentiment Peyton and Brady are horrible leaders/teammates.. hell they have cussed out their own offensive players).. BTW he was voted a captain by his own teammates right? :rolleyes: All it means is he's human and he has emotion and sees the same damn thing we've all been commenting about on here. I'm glad he said what he said, it tells me he's not contempt with the way we're playing and is a competitor who wants to win.

"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser." - Vince Lombardi

HJam72
09-27-2013, 05:01 AM
I dunno, guys, I think Cushing & Watt should be traded for sayin' stuff like that. :jk:

buddyboy
09-27-2013, 09:58 AM
You're right, I mean it's not like he's made the biggest play so far or anything.. or is a main reason why this team has a winning record right now.. and we all know he's completely responsible for the entire output of the entire defense. :rolleyes: Cushing can say whatever the hell he wants right now, especially when he's speaking the truth.

Great quotes for a Leadership course.....said no one ever

Because you've personally made a big play (maybe the biggest play) doesn't mean you can say whatever you want, especially if it's a detriment to the team.

Leadership is about removing self and doing what's needed for the team. I do believe Cushing's words weren't him insulting the offense, just saying that it was going to be on the defense this game. That's a leadership role, to say, "You can't do it? It's okay, I'll take care of it".

All the people in this thread saying that Cushing should ****-slap Schaub as if that somehow is good for the team and it shows leadership and balls? Probably shouldn't be a leader on a team...ever.

handswarmer
09-27-2013, 11:03 AM
Manipulate it however you want to...justify it however you want to...

Fact still remains that he said it about the offense but the real failing has been on the defense.

Carr Bombed
09-27-2013, 11:30 AM
Manipulate it however you want to...justify it however you want to...

Fact still remains that he said it about the offense but the real failing has been on the defense.

Translation..

"I can't refute anything you just said and I don't know the difference between a fact and a opinion".

OK Bud, whatever you say.

bOODRO87
09-27-2013, 12:04 PM
Manipulate it however you want to...justify it however you want to...

Fact still remains that he said it about the offense but the real failing has been on the defense.

Wow, talk about delusional. Schaub has thrown a pick in every game since Cincy of last year.

tedr
09-27-2013, 12:06 PM
Manipulate it however you want to...justify it however you want to...

Fact still remains that he said it about the offense but the real failing has been on the defense.

That's just not true...the defense could have been better but it has not failed, not even close.

I'll repeat what I said- the defense has basically given up 17 points a game (not counting the first SD touchdown or the half-ending FG vs Tenn- both of which the offense was responsible for)...that's not Ravens 2000-esque but still good...the offense and special teams have given up 10 points a game...that's horrible.

Could the defense improve some? Yes. However, to say they have failed is ridiculous.

thunderkyss
09-27-2013, 12:40 PM
That's just not true...the defense could have been better but it has not failed, not even close.

I'll repeat what I said- the defense has basically given up 17 points a game (not counting the first SD touchdown or the half-ending FG vs Tenn- both of which the offense was responsible for)...that's not Ravens 2000-esque but still good...the offense and special teams have given up 10 points a game...that's horrible.

Could the defense improve some? Yes. However, to say they have failed is ridiculous.

We expect the defense to play a full half, not just the first half. They gave up 13 points in the second half.

Think about the Chargers game. They gave up 21 points in the first half. They came out the second half & only allowed 7. That's part of the reason why we won the game. The offense had to do their part & score 24 in the second half.

We needed them to do the same thing against the Ravens. Their poor play (lots of penalties, off sides, Pass interference, poor 3rd down percentage, poor performance in the red zone) was overshadowed by the offenses ineptitude, but they did not play well enough to win in the second half.

The offense would have had to score 22 in the second half alone to win that game.

Rey
09-27-2013, 12:43 PM
Because you've personally made a big play (maybe the biggest play) doesn't mean you can say whatever you want, especially if it's a detriment to the team.

Leadership is about removing self and doing what's needed for the team. I do believe Cushing's words weren't him insulting the offense, just saying that it was going to be on the defense this game. That's a leadership role, to say, "You can't do it? It's okay, I'll take care of it".

All the people in this thread saying that Cushing should ****-slap Schaub as if that somehow is good for the team and it shows leadership and balls? Probably shouldn't be a leader on a team...ever.

Certain environments/personalities call for different types of leadership.

Some guys respond better to a kick in the ass while others may not. I thin the real silliness is trying to determine who is and who isn't a good leads from afar based on actions alone.

Results are what matters when you're looked at as a leader. Are you getting the desired results from whatever leadership style you're using. If you aren't, that's when you should reassess your style. If he is getting other guys to fully focus and give maximum effort then he's a good leader. Doesn't make him a great human, but his leadership can't be questioned if he's getting guys to play better.

Mr teX
09-27-2013, 01:16 PM
That's just not true...the defense could have been better but it has not failed, not even close.

I'll repeat what I said- the defense has basically given up 17 points a game (not counting the first SD touchdown or the half-ending FG vs Tenn- both of which the offense was responsible for)...that's not Ravens 2000-esque but still good...the offense and special teams have given up 10 points a game...that's horrible.

Could the defense improve some? Yes. However, to say they have failed is ridiculous.

See, this is what i hate.... get out of here with these made up ESPN stats trying to skew stuff....

1st of all, the only points the offense is truly responsible for are the Schaub pick 6's. & one of those games he and the offense made up for it. The SD pick he had was 1st of all a great play by the SD defender & 2nd, still on the defense. The defense gets paid to stop an offense...........regardless of where that offense is on the field.....they didnt do it...SD scored a TD....so its on the defense...period. Furthermore, if the defense was as good as you guys are trying to make them out to be & that is our identity & strongest part of our team, they would've at least been able to hold them to 3 there.

I don't have a problem with anyone bashing this offense...they've sputtered too often to be relied upon to show up week in/out....& we can speculate all day on what the chief reasons for that are.......What i absolutely disagree with is how you guys continuously use qualifiers when talking about this defense in an effort to cast it in the best light relative to the offense....but don't do the same when it comes to the offense....Like the offense, the defense too these 1st 3 games has sputtered a bit too often when we've need them to bow their necks...Unlike the defense however, they went into the last game without its pro bowl LT...a trash RT a banged up RG and played 1/2 that game without it's #1 WR option. So truthfully, neither side has played up to its talent level..Despite what your homemade stats might suggest about the defense's performance.

The other thing is, we've continously heard from those critical of the offense say "this looks like the same team from the end of last year and in the playoffs..." or some itereation of that.


Well if that's the case, than includes the defense as well.......That includes the offense not scoring a TD in the last umpteen quarters in the last 4 games as well as those games when GB, NE, Jax and DET wiped their ass with our defense....

As hervy said in another post in another thread...there's poop everywhere...& there continues to be poop everywhere on this team. Just b/c the biggest smelliest turd is the 1 under center at the moment doesn't mean the other turds elsewhere don't stink.

tedr
09-27-2013, 01:19 PM
We expect the defense to play a full half, not just the first half. They gave up 13 points in the second half.

Think about the Chargers game. They gave up 21 points in the first half. They came out the second half & only allowed 7. That's part of the reason why we won the game. The offense had to do their part & score 24 in the second half.

We needed them to do the same thing against the Ravens. Their poor play (lots of penalties, off sides, Pass interference, poor 3rd down percentage, poor performance in the red zone) was overshadowed by the offenses ineptitude, but they did not play well enough to win in the second half.

The offense would have had to score 22 in the second half alone to win that game.

They gave up 16 for the whole game. That's the only thing that matters. I don't care if they give up all 16 in one quarter or spread it out across the whole game. 16 points a game is good defense.

Another thing- I guess they technically gave up 21 points in the first half against SD, but SD had to travel all of 10 yards for their first score. To me, that's really only 14.

I don't know who said this, maybe Carr Bombed (apologies if it's not), but he's right. Cushing just happened to be caught saying this. I'm sure many others in the same situation have said the same thing. Doesn't mean he doesn't think we don't have a good offense...I just think he was frustrated, and, at that time, he was right.

I'm not even saying that we have a bad offense. I happen to think they'll respond this week and the Texans will win. However, the defense has played well this year, last Sunday included- I just think anyone who says they haven't is wrong, that's all.

Rey
09-27-2013, 01:23 PM
See, this is what i hate.... get out of here with these made up ESPN stats trying to skew stuff....

1st of all, the only points the offense is truly responsible for are the Schaub pick 6's. & one of those games he and the offense made up for it. The SD pick he had was 1st of all a great play by the SD defender & 2nd, still on the defense. The defense gets paid to stop an offense...........regardless of where that offense is on the field.....they didnt do it...SD scored a TD....so its on the defense...period. Furthermore, if the defense was as good as you guys are trying to make them out to be & that is our identity & strongest part of our team, they would've at least been able to hold them to 3 there.

I don't have a problem with anyone bashing this offense...they've sputtered too often to be relied upon to show up week in/out....& we can speculate all day on what the chief reasons for that are.......What i absolutely disagree with is how you guys continuously use qualifiers when talking about this defense in an effort to cast it in the best light relative to the offense....but don't do the same when it comes to the offense....Like the offense, the defense too these 1st 3 games has sputtered a bit too often when we've need them to bow their necks...Neither side has played up to its talent level..Despite what your homemade stats might suggest about their performance.

The other thing is, we've continously heard from those critical of the offense say "this looks like the same team from the end of last year and in the playoffs..." or some itereation of that.


Well if that's the case, than includes the defense as well.......That includes the offense not scoring a TD in the last umpteen quarters in the last 4 games as well as those games when GB, NE, Jax and DET wiped their ass with our defense....

As hervy said in another post in another thread...there's poop everywhere...& there continues to be poop everywhere on this team. Just b/c the biggest smelliest turd is the 1 under center at the moment doesn't mean the other turds elsewhere don't stink.


That's a ridiculous way to look at things. If the defense gets a turnover on our own goal line and the offense scores a TD, the defense gets some credit for that and vice versa.

When you give a team the ball in prime scoring position that's a negative on you. Short of three straight sacks or a turnover SD was getting points in that situation.

Rey
09-27-2013, 01:36 PM
We expect the defense to play a full half, not just the first half. They gave up 13 points in the second half.

Think about the Chargers game. They gave up 21 points in the first half. They came out the second half & only allowed 7. That's part of the reason why we won the game. The offense had to do their part & score 24 in the second half.

We needed them to do the same thing against the Ravens. Their poor play (lots of penalties, off sides, Pass interference, poor 3rd down percentage, poor performance in the red zone) was overshadowed by the offenses ineptitude, but they did not play well enough to win in the second half.

The offense would have had to score 22 in the second half alone to win that game.

Part of that 21 in the first half was due to the offense turning the ball over with their backs against the EZ.

Defense also scored a TD that helped us win.

It's terribly asinine to keep bringing up the defense as they haven't been spectacular, but they haven't been craptacular either.

It's easier for an offense to make up for a bad half than a defense.

If an offense scores 0 points in a half but scores 30 in the other half, well they scored 30 points.

If defense gives up 28 in a half and pitched a shut out for the other, that still shows up as a bad game. Offense can more easily make up for mistakes and people look at the final result and go well we ended up with this.

On defense one slip up by a DB could mean 7. Short of scoring a TD themselves, there's no making up for that. And even then, you can't erase that 7 from the points scored against you.

There are several reasons that the comparisons between the two are silly.

Mr teX
09-27-2013, 01:39 PM
That's a ridiculous way to look at things. If the defense gets a turnover on our own goal line and the offense scores a TD, the defense gets some credit for that and vice versa.

When you give a team the ball in prime scoring position that's a negative on you. Short of three straight sacks or a turnover SD was getting points in that situation.

Not any more ridiculous than totally absolving the defense for giving up points....which is what many in here have been doing when bringing in these homemade stats....Giving credit and total absolution are 2 totally different things.

tedr
09-27-2013, 01:53 PM
Not any more ridiculous than totally absolving the defense for giving up points....which is what many in here have been doing when bringing in these homemade stats....Giving credit and total absolution are 2 totally different things.

"Homemade stats" is kind of a reach, don't ya think?

Just like those who are bashing the defense throw out numbers, those of us who think the defense is doing well do the same thing. That doesn't make them less legitimate.

If you think the offense has no responsibility for SD scoring their first touchdown or Tennessee kicking the field goal before halftime, then I think you're not watching closely enough. Would it have been great if the defense had only allowed a FG after Schaub's int and pushed Tenn back out of FG range after (another) Schaub int? Yes, but that's somewhat unrealistic.

I'm not saying our offense is bad- they've just underperformed so far. I happen to think our defense is doing well- not great, but certainly good enough...and I don't see anyone here totally absolving the defense.

Agree to disagree I guess.

Mr teX
09-27-2013, 02:04 PM
Part of that 21 in the first half was due to the offense turning the ball over with their backs against the EZ.

Defense also scored a TD that helped us win.

It's terribly asinine to keep bringing up the defense as they haven't been spectacular, but they haven't been craptacular either.

It's easier for an offense to make up for a bad half than a defense.

If an offense scores 0 points in a half but scores 30 in the other half, well they scored 30 points.

If defense gives up 28 in a half and pitched a shut out for the other, that still shows up as a bad game. Offense can more easily make up for mistakes and people look at the final result and go well we ended up with this.

On defense one slip up by a DB could mean 7. Short of scoring a TD themselves, there's no making up for that. And even then, you can't erase that 7 from the points scored against you.

There are several reasons that the comparisons between the two are silly.

The defense has the ability to put up points by itself irrespective of the offense....So tell me again how it's easier for an offense to make up for a bad 1/2 again?

edit...There's really nothing else to be discussed if you truly believe the bolded.

you guys are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

buddyboy
09-27-2013, 02:15 PM
Certain environments/personalities call for different types of leadership.

Some guys respond better to a kick in the ass while others may not. I thin the real silliness is trying to determine who is and who isn't a good leads from afar based on actions alone.

Results are what matters when you're looked at as a leader. Are you getting the desired results from whatever leadership style you're using. If you aren't, that's when you should reassess your style. If he is getting other guys to fully focus and give maximum effort then he's a good leader. Doesn't make him a great human, but his leadership can't be questioned if he's getting guys to play better.

You're right. There are different leadership styles, but I don't think the mentality "I'm doing what I'm supposed to, so I can blame everyone else" belongs on any team. I know Cushing isn't content with his performance, regardless of his good play thus far, and I have no doubt that pushing Schaub to be better may be a good leadership move.

Calling him out in public or actually getting into it with him like many on this board are calling for is not leadership. It's that stuff that breaks teams down.

Carr Bombed
09-27-2013, 02:16 PM
The defense has the ability to put up points by itself irrespective of the offense....So tell me again how it's easier for an offense to make up for a bad 1/2 again?

edit...There's really nothing else to be discussed if you truly believe the bolded.

you guys are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Really..

We are now watching a offensive driven league.. playing under a set of rules designed to help offenses. Defenses, even the good ones are going to give up points during periods of a ball game to competent offenses. When you only give up 16 points (which is more than good enough to win) and they give your offense good field position (with a crap load of 3 and outs) it's their job to pick up the slack and put points on the board, especially one that has many weapons as ours.

We're not "having our cake and eating it to"... we're just being realistic and can see which side of the ball is playing better during this short season.

thunderkyss
09-27-2013, 02:51 PM
It's easier for an offense to make up for a bad half than a defense.

If an offense scores 0 points in a half but scores 30 in the other half, well they scored 30 points.

If defense gives up 28 in a half and pitched a shut out for the other, that still shows up as a bad game. Offense can more easily make up for mistakes and people look at the final result and go well we ended up with this.

On defense one slip up by a DB could mean 7. Short of scoring a TD themselves, there's no making up for that. And even then, you can't erase that 7 from the points scored against you.

There are several reasons that the comparisons between the two are silly.

I used the same argument in 2010. So I agree.

However, saying the defense played well enough to win that game is not true. We didn't win.

They pitched a shutout in the first half (we have to qualify this with "damn near"). Let's use that as our base line for a great game.

Baltimore's offense possessed the ball 4 times in the first half. They had 2 three & outs, a punt, & a field goal..... that's great defensive football. I'll take that as often as I can get it.

Of course, there was the pick 6 after their FG, then the ST touchdown.

In the second half, Baltimore had 4 possessions. They allowed an 80 yard drive for a TD (that's not good defense), a field goal on a possession that started on the Ravens 4 yard line (that's not good defense), a field goal on a possession that started on the 50 (the offense turned it over on downs..... that's good football. Not excellent, not great.... but eh... good). They did force the Ravens to punt on one of the 4 second half possessions.

At half time, the ToP was 18 minutes to 11. The offense doing what it needed to do to stay on the field (couldn't score a TD) & the defense doing what it needed to do to get the Ravens off the field (they allowed a score of any kind on 1 of 4 possessions). By the end of the game it was 30 minutes to 29.

The defense also earns a few demerits in the second half for 6 penalties for 42 yards. You're just helping the Ravens stay on the field even longer. 3 were for offsides/encroachment because they couldn't watch the ball. That's not good football.

Forget for a second that Matt Schaub "deserves" all the blame for this loss. Watch what happened in the second half, just the defensive snaps & tell me you saw the Houston Texans playing good football.

No excuses. Just watch that game again.... heck, go through the play by play & tell me the defense played a good game in the second half.

Mr teX
09-27-2013, 02:52 PM
Really..

We are now watching a offensive driven league.. playing under a set of rules designed to help offenses. Defenses, even the good ones are going to give up points during periods of a ball game to competent offenses. When you only give up 16 points (which is more than good enough to win) and they give your offense good field position (with a crap load of 3 and outs) it's their job to pick up the slack and put points on the board, especially one that has many weapons as ours.

We're not "having our cake and eating it to"... we're just being realistic and can see which side of the ball is playing better during this short season.


it is trying to have your cake & eat it too...You guys are hyper-vigilant about the woes of the offense but are flat out ignoring this defenses issues Simply b/c they've played marginally better than the offense has thus far.
Nevermind about how the offense kept us within striking distance & eventually won us the game in WK 1 while it took the defense a whole 1/2 a game & quarter to get it's head out its ass...


nevermind how the offense came thru when we needed them most in the Tennessee game to pull out the victory.

Your post just illustrates it even more..."well, the rules are slanted towards the offense, so they should be putting up video game numbers..." Well, the other guys get paid too.

I mean just browse all the active threads thus far. All that is being talked about is what Schaub or Kubiak aren't doing or how Foster isn't running or something related to the offense.


The bottom line is that each side has needed each other to pick them up at times over the last 3 games. The 1st 2 games the offense answered the bell..this last game they didn't.

Carr Bombed
09-27-2013, 03:05 PM
Dear lord, nobody is ignoring the defensive issues. We've already said they haven't been spectacular. People are simply saying they haven't cost us games and have played well enough to win.. while the offense and and special teams have been downright awful at times and have put this defense in bad spots. Can the defense play better.. yes, but should this team be able to win if they only surrender 16 points.. hell yes. The defense is at least still respectable while the offense and STs have been anything but.. and they need a hell of a lot more improvement.

Mr teX
09-27-2013, 03:13 PM
Dear lord, nobody is ignoring the defensive issues. We've already said they haven't been spectacular. People are simply saying they haven't cost us games and have played well enough to win.. while the offense and and special teams have been downright awful at times and have put this defense in bad spots. Can the defense play better.. yes, but should this team be able to win if they only surrender 16 points.. hell yes. The defense is at least still respectable while the offense and STs have been anything but.. and they need a hell of a lot more improvement.

Lol, you saying they haven't been spectacular in 1 sentence in 1 post doesn't equal out to 783295790 threads done on the offense...It is pretty much ignoring.

& the defense hasn't cost us games and they've played well enough to win in 2 out of the 3 games. The same can be said for the offense as well...the SD and Tenn games they put up 30 +....would've been more if Bullock didn't catch the yips.

Carr Bombed
09-27-2013, 04:18 PM
Lol, you saying they haven't been spectacular in 1 sentence in 1 post doesn't equal out to 783295790 threads done on the offense...It is pretty much ignoring.

& the defense hasn't cost us games and they've played well enough to win in 2 out of the 3 games. The same can be said for the offense as well...the SD and Tenn games they put up 30 +....would've been more if Bullock didn't catch the yips.

??? I haven't been a part of the 78325970 threads.. but if there's that many threads saying the same thing, maybe that should tell you where the majority of the blame lies.

HJam72
09-27-2013, 07:10 PM
My homemade stats tell me that Lechler has scored more points than our offense this year.

Carr Bombed
09-30-2013, 03:17 PM
Lol, you saying they haven't been spectacular in 1 sentence in 1 post doesn't equal out to 783295790 threads done on the offense...It is pretty much ignoring.

& the defense hasn't cost us games and they've played well enough to win in 2 out of the 3 games. The same can be said for the offense as well...the SD and Tenn games they put up 30 +....would've been more if Bullock didn't catch the yips.

Lol..you still think the offense and defense are on equal footing in this "blame game"? Take the 783294790 threads you don't agree with and multiply it by (pick) 6!

Mr teX
09-30-2013, 04:03 PM
Lol..you still think the offense and defense are on equal footing in this "blame game"? Take the 783294790 threads you don't agree with and multiply it by (pick) 6!

Never said they were on equal footing, only that the defense had its share of issues as well. This game doesn't really change that thought process b/c it all comes back to 1 person for me...Kubiak.

But for convo sake i'll bite. Coming into this game, all we heard about was how great Seattle's defense was & how it was going to be tough sledging for our offense against their secondary....the offense ran all over them in the 1st half & put up 20 pts..Good enough to win against a top team with a top defense? Maybe.....it depends on that teams offense.

The defense beasted on Seattle too & we looked like the best team in the league.

In saying that both sides looked good in the 1st half...hell even ST looked good.

The 2nd half, both fell off...even though the offense made the biggest mistake it didn't lose the game in the literal sense...it only tied it. both sides still had the opportunity to win it after that....& they both failed. & don't give me this b.s. about them being tired..

Point is, you couldn't expect the offense to continue to move the ball and put points on the board against the best defense in the league like they did in the 1st half anymore than you could expect our defense to continue stuffing Seattle's offense. If just 1 side of the ball continues to do what they did in the 1st half, we win the game regardless of Schaub's pick 6.

That's not excusing Schaub's dumb ass pick 6's it's merely taking into account everything. The defense picks the most inopportune time to fall down...........much like Schaub and the offense picking the most inopportune time to throw a damn pick 6.

Carr Bombed
09-30-2013, 04:28 PM
Never said they were on equal footing, only that the defense had its share of issues as well. This game doesn't really change that thought process b/c it all comes back to 1 person for me...Kubiak.

But for convo sake i'll bite. Coming into this game, all we heard about was how great Seattle's defense was & how it was going to be tough sledging for our offense against their secondary....the offense ran all over them in the 1st half & put up 20 pts..Good enough to win against a top team with a top defense? Maybe.....it depends on that teams offense.

The defense beasted on Seattle too & we looked like the best team in the league.

In saying that both sides looked good in the 1st half...hell even ST looked good.

The 2nd half, both fell off...even though the offense made the biggest mistake it didn't lose the game in the literal sense...it only tied it. both sides still had the opportunity to win it after that....& they both failed. & don't give me this b.s. about them being tired..

Point is, you couldn't expect the offense to continue to move the ball and put points on the board against the best defense in the league like they did in the 1st half anymore than you could expect our defense to continue stuffing Seattle's offense. If just 1 side of the ball continues to do what they did in the 1st half, we win the game regardless of Schaub's pick 6.

That's not excusing Schaub's dumb ass pick 6's it's merely taking into account everything. The defense picks the most inopportune time to fall down...........much like Schaub and the offense picking the most inopportune time to throw a damn pick 6. You see it's not how many points the defense gives up it's when they're doing it...

B.S. the defense only gave up 13 points yesterday (again and this is getting redundent) is good enough to win.:kubepalm: People are NOT burning Watt ane Cushing jerseys today. They are burning schaub jerseys. This is now a offense driven league and ours is driving us off a cliff. Again, the defense was not and hasn't been the problem.

Mr teX
09-30-2013, 05:05 PM
B.S. the defense only gave up 13 points yesterday (again and this is getting redundent) is good enough to win.:kubepalm: People are NOT burning Watt ane Cushing jerseys today. They are burning schaub jerseys. This is now a offense driven league and ours is driving us off a cliff. Again, the defense was and hasn't been the problem


& what? the offense put up 20 pts against the best defense in the league (monumental feat in and of itself) and gave back 7...so its a tie game going by your simple logic. You see how looking at things so simple-minded doesn't tell the whole story? Minus any 1 of the TO's committed by the offense wins us the game but people hone in on Schaub's pick 6 b/c it was at a critical point in the game. Likewise, this is also the 2nd time in as many games that the defense has let a team drive 98 yards down the field on them at a critical time in the game....But hey, they only gave up 13 points and that's all that matters right? Not exactly. When you do something also has a place in all this too.

But forget all that....THIS IS A TEAM GAME no matter how nice you want to try and compartmentalize it that's what it is....the greatest team game imo. & both sides of the ball had ample opportunities to put the game on ice before and after the pick 6. Lets also not forget that it was the defense that was on the field last who gave up the field goal in OT too though.

Whether it was the offense scoring more points in the last remaining drives they had or not turning the ball over.... or it was the defense in not letting Russell Wilson run all over the place converting key 3rd downs and/or committing penalties that put them in FG range...both sides fell off.

Doesn't matter what kind of league this is now..we all know that come playoff time, the offense goes by the wayside and defenses reign supreme.

steelbtexan
09-30-2013, 05:12 PM
The offense put up 20 pts and gave up 7.

13 pts by your offense isn't going to win many games.

Mr teX
09-30-2013, 05:18 PM
The offense put up 20 pts and gave up 7.

13 pts by your offense isn't going to win many games.

I understand that, but a defense as good as ours also doesn't let a team they've dominated for 2.75 quarters drive 98 yards on them for 7 either.........unless they've gotten off the gas pedal purposely that is..Especially if its supposed to be the strongest part of your team...Those type of defenses take matters into their own hands.

instead what we saw was a defense begin to look clueless once 1 of its players went out with a concussion.

tedr
09-30-2013, 05:33 PM
& what? the offense put up 20 pts against the best defense in the league (monumental feat in and of itself) and gave back 7...so its a tie game going by your simple logic. You see how looking at things so simple-minded doesn't tell the whole story? Minus any 1 of the TO's committed by the offense wins us the game but people hone in on Schaub's pick 6 b/c it was at a critical point in the game. Likewise, this is also the 2nd time in as many games that the defense has let a team drive 98 yards down the field on them at a critical time in the game....But hey, they only gave up 13 points and that's all that matters right? Not exactly. When you do something also has a place in all this too.

But forget all that....THIS IS A TEAM GAME no matter how nice you want to try and compartmentalize it that's what it is....the greatest team game imo. & both sides of the ball had ample opportunities to put the game on ice before and after the pick 6. Lets also not forget that it was the defense that was on the field last who gave up the field goal in OT too though.

Whether it was the offense scoring more points in the last remaining drives they had or not turning the ball over.... or it was the defense in not letting Russell Wilson run all over the place converting key 3rd downs and/or committing penalties that put them in FG range...both sides fell off.

Doesn't matter what kind of league this is now..we all know that come playoff time, the offense goes by the wayside and defenses reign supreme.

Good grief, the defense gave up 10 points in regulation where the Seahawks had to drive any reasonable length...even when the offense fumbled on our 20 and the Seahawks kicked a FG, they gained 0 yards on the series.

I'm not real happy either about the 96 yard drive...I wish it wouldn't have happened...but come on, 10 points against the best team in the NFL? I'll take that any day. Like I said before, I could not care less when they give up the points.

The way I see it, the Texans D has given up a total of 61 points when the other team has had a normal drive, not the result of offensive mistakes deep in their own territory. That's darn good.

infantrycak
09-30-2013, 05:49 PM
I'm not real happy either about the 96 yard drive...I wish it wouldn't have happened...but come on, 10 points against the best team in the NFL?

Whoa, we aren't talking about the Broncos who are hanging 45 ppg on teams. Seattle is known primarily for their D which was ranked #1.