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View Full Version : If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?


Texecutioner
09-18-2013, 10:25 PM
My buddies and I had this discussion the other day and we all came to the same conclusion that neither of them would and they would be on the sidelines behind Matt Schaub.

Now if you agree with this, I'd say that this is a huge problem with our HC. Now this is not a "Fire Kubiak" thread or anything, because we all know that idea isn't even up for debate. However, Kubiak's stubbornness has always been a huge problem. I think Kubiak is fully willing to ride Schaub until he is either hurt or until it is to late. I don't think that Kubiak will have any intention what so ever to even consider another QB for maybe another two years. We are in a win now mode, and I felt like our offense looked so much better and had way more versatility when Keenum was running it in the pre season. I'm not trying to suggest that Keenum should start right now, but for the first time I started really liking this Texans Kubiak offense when I saw a mobile guy with a stronger arm running it.

Do you feel that Kaepernick or Wilson would start here "right now?" And if you don't how in the world could you justify that not as a huge problem with the HC's judgement?

Again, this is not some Fire Kubiak thread and I don't want it to go that route. We had this discussion the other day and I thought it was very interesting to discuss.

Tailgate
09-18-2013, 10:30 PM
The debate must first start with Schaub being greater than either Matt Flynn or Alex Smith.

Second, who the heck knows? I know you want to pick on the idea of Kubiaks stubbornness. But what stubbornness of his do you speak of when it comes to the QB position?

dream_team
09-18-2013, 10:32 PM
I think it depends on how well they are learning the offense. I don't think Kubiak is stubborn in giving a guy a chance, but he is stubborn in the sense that players should run the offense the way he designed it to be. In other words, if Kaep or Wilson play, and they are opting to run and freelance too much, instead of running the play as it was designed... then yes, I say Kubiak benches them in favor of Matt.

I don't think Kubiak is afraid to give player's chances. If he was stubborn, we'd probably still be seeing Steve Slaton with Arian on the bench. We'd still have KW as the #2, with Hopkins on some other team.

ubecool454
09-18-2013, 10:33 PM
This is a silly thread.

Texecutioner
09-18-2013, 10:37 PM
The debate must first start with Schaub being greater than either Matt Flynn or Alex Smith.

Second, who the heck knows?? I know you want to pick on the idea of Kubiaks stubbornness. But what stubbornness of his do you speak of when it comes to the QB position?

Well, I just think that Kubiak likes Schaub because Schaub is a "yes man." He will do whatever Kubiak says and wants and is very under "his control." Schaub doesn't try to deviate from his game plan or improvise which is what a lot of QB's have to do now days more then anything. I don't think that Kubiak trusts Schaub to do a whole lot either which bothers me, because if he is going to be your guy then why not allow him to do a little bit more on his own since he has been in this system for a long time and Schaub is a pretty seasoned vet. I think Kubiak has his plays that he likes and he doesn't really like to adapt away from it depending on who we're playing or what the system of the other team's defense is. I think that Gary has his system and he runs that system the way he plans going into a game and he won't deviate from that plan no matter what circumstances are in a game. And Schaub listens, and Gary likes that.

Now, Kaepernick and Wilson are two great talents. But would they have ever gotten a real chance if they were on this team? THere has never really been an open competition at QB for Schaub. Not that there has been hardly anyone to really compete for it until this off season, but I don't think that Gary has any care in the world to even look.

The Pencil Neck
09-18-2013, 10:40 PM
I don't think either one of them would have pushed Schaub out of the Starter's job when they were rookies and possibly, not even second year players.

But if we had drafted Kaepernick, I think he would have been the starter this year. Those sorts of QBs with that sort of athletic potential in this sort of offense would be... simply... unstoppable.

The only problem they would have in unseating Schaub is their ability to read the defense and their ability to know the playbook. Schaub's experience and his knowledge would give him an advantage but eventually... and I'm thinking "eventually would be their 3rd year... they would know enough of the offense so that their athletic abilities would tip the scales in their favor.

If they didn't pick up the offense, though, they would never start regardless of athletic potential.

ChampionTexan
09-18-2013, 10:41 PM
Considering the only way that either one of them could be a Texan would be by getting selected higher in the draft than the Texans have ever taken a QB, with the exception of HWSNBN, I would say yes. Rick and Gary wouldn't use that high a pick without the absolute expectation of them becoming a starter relatively quickly.

Texecutioner
09-18-2013, 10:43 PM
I don't think Kubiak is afraid to give player's chances. If he was stubborn, we'd probably still be seeing Steve Slaton with Arian on the bench. We'd still have KW as the #2, with Hopkins on some other team.

I think you'd have to admit that these two are horrible examples.

Slaton was playing awful before getting benched and he got benched like 3 times before getting hurt and got extra chances. Slaton kept fumbling and couldn't run anywhere for a positive yardage. It was a no brainer to bench Slaton and Foster wasn't put in right away. That other small back was put in, and he didn't do fantastic either. That was when Foster "finally"got this shot at the end of the season when everything was over. That was a huge failure of Kubiak actually for not giving Foster a chance earlier.

And Hopkins??? Dude, are you forgetting that Walter was here like two years to long? Kubiak held onto that guy and Jacoby way to long and it hurt the team. The Texans refused to ever go after a quality free agent receiver. They were forced to use an early draft pick this season on Hopkins and hopefully it ends up working out. It looks like it is, but we still have a long way to go.


Both of the examples you cited actually make my point even further. These were both examples where Kubiak's lack of trust in Foster had him on the bench when we really needed him over these other guys and Walter was a guy that we held onto for way to long and didn't properly try to address the receiver position.

Texecutioner
09-18-2013, 10:44 PM
Considering the only way that either one of them could be a Texan would be by getting selected higher in the draft than the Texans have ever taken a QB, with the exception of HWSNBN, I would say yes. Rick and Gary wouldn't use that high a pick without the absolute expectation of them becoming a starter relatively quickly.

That has nothing to do with the main question of the thread. The "what if" scenario of when and where they would have been drafted isn't what is being talked about or should be. If either was on this team would they start? I don't care how they got on it.

busterspencer
09-18-2013, 10:45 PM
I think it depends on how well they are learning the offense. I don't think Kubiak is stubborn in giving a guy a chance, but he is stubborn in the sense that players should run the offense the way he designed it to be. In other words, if Kaep or Wilson play, and they are opting to run and freelance too much, instead of running the play as it was designed... then yes, I say Kubiak benches them in favor of Matt.

I don't think Kubiak is afraid to give player's chances. If he was stubborn, we'd probably still be seeing Steve Slaton with Arian on the bench. We'd still have KW as the #2, with Hopkins on some other team.

I remember all of the back up QBs that the fans wanted to play ahead of the starter. When it came time for them to shine, in regular season, they fell apart. The only thing wrong with Schaub is that he throws behind the reciever a lot of times.

dream_team
09-18-2013, 10:52 PM
I remember all of the back up QBs that the fans wanted to play ahead of the starter. When it came time for them to shine, in regular season, they fell apart. The only thing wrong with Schaub is that he throws behind the reciever a lot of times.

Exactly... Cody Carlson, Bucky Richardson, and Sage come to mind.

Thorn
09-18-2013, 10:52 PM
Let's line up Schaub, Yates and Keenum and have 'em all pee on an electric fence. The one smart enough to hold his dick with his left hand will be our new starter.

ChampionTexan
09-18-2013, 10:57 PM
That has nothing to do with the main question of the thread. The "what if" scenario of when and where they would have been drafted isn't what is being talked about or should be. If either was on this team would they start? I don't care how they got on it.

In my mind, it has everything to do with the question. The Forty-Niners drafted Kaepernick because Harbaugh and Trent Baalke felt they needed a QB. The Seahawks drafted Russell Wilson because John Schneider - and probably Pete Carrol - felt they needed a QB. They didn't just land on a roster where everyone was happy with the QB they had, and while I will say, giving a third round rookie a starting QB job took some nerve, he was competing with a guy who entered the competition with a grand total of two NFL starts to his name (and FWIW, still has two NFL starts to his name, and just got passed over again in a similar set of circumstances). Maybe we should be talking about what a visionary, gutsy organization the Raiders are.

By definition, two guys as highly regarded as Kaepernick and Wilson were coming out of college are only going to end up on a roster if whoever is making the decision on that roster genuinely believe they need a QB.

I guess it's just as valid to ask if the Niners and Seahawks would have drafted Kaepernick and Wilson if they already had a QB they felt was adequate?

dream_team
09-18-2013, 10:58 PM
I think you'd have to admit that these two are horrible examples.

Slaton was playing awful before getting benched and he got benched like 3 times before getting hurt and got extra chances. Slaton kept fumbling and couldn't run anywhere for a positive yardage. It was a no brainer to bench Slaton and Foster wasn't put in right away. That other small back was put in, and he didn't do fantastic either. That was when Foster "finally"got this shot at the end of the season when everything was over. That was a huge failure of Kubiak actually for not giving Foster a chance earlier.

And Hopkins??? Dude, are you forgetting that Walter was here like two years to long? Kubiak held onto that guy and Jacoby way to long and it hurt the team. The Texans refused to ever go after a quality free agent receiver. They were forced to use an early draft pick this season on Hopkins and hopefully it ends up working out. It looks like it is, but we still have a long way to go.


Both of the examples you cited actually make my point even further. These were both examples where Kubiak's lack of trust in Foster had him on the bench when we really needed him over these other guys and Walter was a guy that we held onto for way to long and didn't properly try to address the receiver position.

You want to be able to give your backups a chance to start, but at the same time, you want to give your struggling starters a chance to redeem themselves.

I remember a time when fans had enough of Kareem Jackson, Chris Myers, and Duane Brown... and wanted to see them gone. It's not always a good idea to give up on guys too early.

CloakNNNdagger
09-18-2013, 11:10 PM
I'll come back with a simple answer................When Schaub got his new contract, "open competition" left the building with Elvis.:mcnugget:

ChampionTexan
09-18-2013, 11:14 PM
I'll come back with a simple answer................When Schaub got his new contract, "open competition" left the building with Elvis.:mcnugget:

Give me an example of an NFL team where that isn't true.

drs23
09-18-2013, 11:14 PM
That has nothing to do with the main question of the thread. The "what if" scenario of when and where they would have been drafted isn't what is being talked about or should be. If either was on this team would they start? I don't care how they got on it.

Anybody ever ask you about their Aunt?

The Pencil Neck
09-18-2013, 11:18 PM
I'll come back with a simple answer................When Schaub got his new contract, "open competition" left the building with Elvis.:mcnugget:

If you have a couple of guys who could be the guy, then you don't have The Guy.

That's why Harbaugh waited until he had an excuse to insert Kaepernick into the line-up. He didn't want to just yank Smith... who until that point was The Guy.

76Texan
09-18-2013, 11:21 PM
You want to be able to give your backups a chance to start, but at the same time, you want to give your struggling starters a chance to redeem themselves.

I remember a time when fans had enough of Kareem Jackson, Chris Myers, and Duane Brown... and wanted to see them gone. It's not always a good idea to give up on guys too early.


:bravo:

I'll come back with a simple answer................When Schaub got his new contract, "open competition" left the building with Elvis.:mcnugget:

:bravo:
:ahhaha:

76Texan
09-18-2013, 11:22 PM
In my mind, it has everything to do with the question. The Forty-Niners drafted Kaepernick because Harbaugh and Trent Baalke felt they needed a QB. The Seahawks drafted Russell Wilson because John Schneider - and probably Pete Carrol - felt they needed a QB. They didn't just land on a roster where everyone was happy with the QB they had, and while I will say, giving a third round rookie a starting QB job took some nerve, he was competing with a guy who entered the competition with a grand total of two NFL starts to his name (and FWIW, still has two NFL starts to his name, and just got passed over again in a similar set of circumstances). Maybe we should be talking about what a visionary, gutsy organization the Raiders are.

By definition, two guys as highly regarded as Kaepernick and Wilson were coming out of college are only going to end up on a roster if whoever is making the decision on that roster genuinely believe they need a QB.

I guess it's just as valid to ask if the Niners and Seahawks would have drafted Kaepernick and Wilson if they already had a QB they felt was adequate?
Great points.

IlliniJen
09-18-2013, 11:25 PM
I don't think Kubiak would know what to do with the likes of Kaepernick or Wilson. I think that Dennys menu can only hold plays designed for drop back passers. Athletic QBs add too much of an X factor and they sometimes have to jettison out of a play and make something happen on their own.

b0ng
09-18-2013, 11:27 PM
That has nothing to do with the main question of the thread. The "what if" scenario of when and where they would have been drafted isn't what is being talked about or should be. If either was on this team would they start? I don't care how they got on it.

It absolutely matters how they got to the team, either via draft, free agency or a trade. You can't just magically place those guys on the Texans then craft an argument about how pitiful Kubiak is without giving some sort of context. I believe if they were on the team and had demonstrated they could run Kubiak's offense better than Schaub then they would be starting, and not before then.

CloakNNNdagger
09-18-2013, 11:48 PM
Give me an example of an NFL team where that isn't true.

You just proved my point then, didn't you?:foottap:

Goatcheese
09-18-2013, 11:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwiYNYlqJL0

Texecutioner
09-18-2013, 11:57 PM
It absolutely matters how they got to the team, either via draft, free agency or a trade. You can't just magically place those guys on the Texans then craft an argument about how pitiful Kubiak is without giving some sort of context.

Well I think you can. It's not like they were high draft picks or anything. I'm just curious if Kubiak would notice the strength of a guy like either in this offense and if he'd do something or not with Schaub still here. That is where my concern is. Would Kubiak make that move if one of these guys were on the roster currently?




I believe if they were on the team and had demonstrated they could run Kubiak's offense better than Schaub then they would be starting, and not before then.

I would hope so, but I don't believe that Gary would give either guy the proper look to see if they would be able to excel in this offense. I think he is to tunnel visioned on Schaub.

Texecutioner
09-19-2013, 12:03 AM
You want to be able to give your backups a chance to start, but at the same time, you want to give your struggling starters a chance to redeem themselves.

I remember a time when fans had enough of Kareem Jackson, Chris Myers, and Duane Brown... and wanted to see them gone. It's not always a good idea to give up on guys too early.

Yes, but Schaub has been the starter here for like 7 years now. I'm not saying that we should replace him right this minute in the season, but I've been seeing one to many things I don't like about Schaub this season. And I've also seen Schaub make two great comeback drives which is an improvement in that area so far, but how long can that last for a flat footed guy like Schaub? I just don't see Schaub pulling those kinds of drives off multiple times in the playoffs. I'd love to see him do it, but I don't want to see the Texans continue to waste good years on some strong teams, because they had a QB that held them back. With the right QB, this is a SB team. I know that Schaub will be the starter all season barring any injuries, but if he doesn't have a monster post season or take this team really far then I think it's time we make it a priority to replace Schaub.

DocBar
09-19-2013, 12:24 AM
No, neither one would be the starting QB for the Texans.

The only reason Elway did what he did was because of Shannahan. Kubiak wants a QB that protects the ball more than anything else. Schaubs INT's this year would be a bigger cause to Yates starting than anything else.

sandman
09-19-2013, 08:40 AM
Lots of logic leaps in this question.

Who have the Texans had on the roster that clearly outplayed Schaub, leading to the premise that Gary is protecting him?

What free-agent QB's were available that were better than Schaub that they didn't sign?

What draft pick would they not have taken in the last two years in order to draft a QB who would replace Schaub?

Kaepernick was a 2nd rounder (36th pick) and Wilson was a 3rd Rounder (75th pick). Why would the Texans take a QB in the first two to three rounds for the explicit purpose of replacing a QB that goes for 4K yards, 20+ TD's and a 95% rating every year?

Seattle was without a QB. They desparately got Matt Flynn from Green Bay because of his one stupidly ridiculous stat line the previous season. The same Matt Flynn that could not win the starting role in Oakland. Wilson had an opportunity to step into a vacuum at the QB position and made the best of it. There was no entrenched, established QB on that team that he beat out.

Alex Smith was the starter in SF for six years, which more resembles what the Texans have in Schaub. However, his stats (and wins) were horrible. Sub 3K passing yards, sub 15 TD's, lots of fumbles, low 80% ratings. SF gave him plenty of years to develop and he didn't. They had already decided to move on from Smith, but had no one on the roster to take his place. Thus, the drafting of Kaepernick. Unfortunately, last year Smith had arguably his best year as a pro by far. Lots of yards, 70% completion rate, 3:1 TD/INT ratio, 104% rating, racking up the wins. But the decision had already been made to move on.

The Texans have not been in the scenario that either SF or Seattle was in at the time they made the decision to use a high draft pick on a QB. It is a faulty premise to assume that the Texans made a mistake by not taking either one, or that they explicitly chose not to because Kubiak is willing to ruin his career in an effort to keep Schaub as his QB at all costs.

thunderkyss
09-19-2013, 08:41 AM
Do you feel that Kaepernick or Wilson would start here "right now?" And if you don't how in the world could you justify that not as a huge problem with the HC's judgement?


I believe if we brought in either Kaepernick or Wilson to replace David Carr, neither would be here starting for the Houston Texans in 2013.

I justify Kubiak's stubbornness because he & Matt have been through thick & thin. They've taken us from 6-10 to 9-7 despite several serious issues. Back to 6-10 then to 12-4.

If the 49ers lose Patrick Willis after week 5, I don't think they're 12-4.... sorry, I don't. If Marshawn Lynch averages 4.1 ypc I don't think the Seahawks are 11-5.

If we had drafted either of those guys in the 2nd round our the 3rd round, they would be sitting on the bench until Matt Schaub gets hurt. If they "light it up" they'll probably keep the job. If not... they wouldn't. But since Schaub (& I'm not a fan) has proven to be more than capable, we didn't draft either of them..... had Kaepernick dropped to the 5th, we might have taken him. Had Wilson went undrafted... we might have taken him. But they didn't, & we didn't.

2012Champs
09-19-2013, 09:21 AM
No, neither one would be the starting QB for the Texans.

The only reason Elway did what he did was because of Shannahan. Kubiak wants a QB that protects the ball more than anything else. Schaubs INT's this year would be a bigger cause to Yates starting than anything else.



Schaub's td/int ratio is 2/1 so even if he continues at that rate Yates is not seeing the game unless Matt gets hurt. You are detached from reality

eriadoc
09-19-2013, 11:02 AM
Give me an example of an NFL team where that isn't true.

I don't care to involve myself in the debate, but the Seahawks gave Matt Flynn a 3 year, $26M contract with $10M guaranteed, then started Wilson from the first regular season game.

CloakNNNdagger
09-19-2013, 11:17 AM
I don't care to involve myself in the debate, but the Seahawks gave Matt Flynn a 3 year, $26M contract with $10M guaranteed, then started Wilson from the first regular season game.

Good example. But, the Texans aren't the Seahawks, and history would go against such a move here. We've always had a history of "hanging on" until fiscal loss is no longer embarrassing and/or poor performance is too embarrassing.

infantrycak
09-19-2013, 11:29 AM
I don't care to involve myself in the debate, but the Seahawks gave Matt Flynn a 3 year, $26M contract with $10M guaranteed, then started Wilson from the first regular season game.

Doesn't address the question. Flynn had never played a down for the Seahawks. Where are the examples of established vets with QB ratings in the 90s being subjected to a public open competition?

buddyboy
09-19-2013, 11:55 AM
I don't think Kubiak would know what to do with the likes of Kaepernick or Wilson. I think that Dennys menu can only hold plays designed for drop back passers. Athletic QBs add too much of an X factor and they sometimes have to jettison out of a play and make something happen on their own.

Because, you know, his years in Denver never had him coaching a mobile QB. :kitten:

Surreal McCoy
09-19-2013, 11:55 AM
I can't address Texecutioner's point directly because I think he's made up his mind. That said, I recall many wanting Josh Freeman a couple years ago, or Cam Newton after he had a smattering of good games. It's more likely that Wilson and Kaepernick end up the same way. I can't count the number of times I've heard in my lifetime, "This player is going to change the way QB is played forever". Hell, even Joe Flacco looked like Montana reincarnate for a few games in the playoffs last season. Give me Brees, Manning, or Brady any day over the flavour du jour at QB.

buddyboy
09-19-2013, 12:03 PM
Well I think you can. It's not like they were high draft picks or anything. I'm just curious if Kubiak would notice the strength of a guy like either in this offense and if he'd do something or not with Schaub still here. That is where my concern is. Would Kubiak make that move if one of these guys were on the roster currently?






I would hope so, but I don't believe that Gary would give either guy the proper look to see if they would be able to excel in this offense. I think he is to tunnel visioned on Schaub.

This whole thread has been "this is what I believe about Gary Kubiak, so there". It's very hard to have a discussion on a hypothetical situation, especially when both sides disagree, since factual evidence doesn't really seem to make a difference; there's always a loophole where that particular case doesn't apply.

That being said, assuming the following: if either of those two guys was on this squad RIGHT now and has shown the level of competence they have shown to date, I believe they would be starting. Maybe they wouldn't, if Kubiak thought Schaub's competence is greater than theirs, I cannot speak to Kubiak's evaluations of the QBs.

You can disagree with me that he wouldn't, I truly believe it comes down to Kubiak's evaluation of their competence, NOT loyalty or stubbornness, as you've argued.

Mr teX
09-19-2013, 12:14 PM
Kaepernick yes, Wilson no...

The reason i say this is b/c Kaepernick and not Wilson is b/c Kaep is more of the prototype than Wilson. Kaepernick for the most part is the prototype. Tall, strong arm, accurate & athletic enough to evade pass rushers. That would've been just too much for even stubborn ass Kubiak to ignore. The minute Schaub went down in 2011 & Kaepernick flashed in the playoffs, Schaub would've been outta here for like a 3rd-4th round pick.

Wilson could've flashed, but ultimately still would've been reglegated back to the bench b/c of the concerns for his height. He would've had to really ball out to to the tune of 300+ yds passing 3 TDs and 50-60 yds rushing to show Kubiak he's up to the task imo....& even then all it would've done was force a qb competition in which Schaub would've won for that year....people forget that Wilson struggled for the 1st 3 games last year before he got into a groove.

HJam72
09-19-2013, 12:14 PM
I guess one way of looking at this is that Schaub has 3 int's in 2 games & that will either improve drastically over time or even Kubiak will be looking to replace him. It's a lot like Bullock's situation, except that Schaub has had at least 3 successful seasons in the past & is no learning rookie.

Personally, I don't like Schaub's overall performance last year, especially late in the season, as he continued to get worse as the games counted more. That doesn't make me feel very indebted to him as a fan, but he has not lost us a game yet this season, & in fact has led game-winning drives despite crappy over-all performances (thank God for Lechler & a sometimes stingy D). We'll see if Schaub's first-half performances improve OR his game-winning drives disappear. The first 2 games weren't good enough overall. Last year wasn't good enough overall. Schaub needs to find his pre-2011 injury self, or else.

Mr teX
09-19-2013, 12:29 PM
I guess one way of looking at this is that Schaub has 3 int's in 2 games & that will either improve drastically over time or even Kubiak will be looking to replace him. It's a lot like Bullock's situation, except that Schaub has had at least 3 successful seasons in the past & is no learning rookie.

Personally, I don't like Schaub's overall performance last year, especially late in the season, as he continued to get worse as the games counted more. That doesn't make me feel very indebted to him as a fan, but he has not lost us a game yet this season, & in fact has led game-winning drives despite crappy over-all performances (thank God for Lechler & a sometimes stingy D). We'll see if Schaub's first-half performances improve OR his game-winning drives disappear. The first 2 games weren't good enough overall. Last year wasn't good enough overall. Schaub needs to find his pre-2011 injury self, or else.

This is such baloney....let's just call a spade a spade, Schaub will never get your support or most of the fans here in this town's full support b/c he doesn't have a rocket arm, he's relatively even kiel and not overly fiery & b/c he's not the flavor of the month "running qb".

The only way people will support this dude is if we win a SB.....emphasis on "win" b/c i feel very strongly that even if he were to lead us to a SB but didn't have a great game people here would find some way to blame him & only him for the loss while simultaneously marginalizing what he did to lead the team there in the 1st place.

& that quite honestly isn't fair to him b/c none of these other qb's whether they're good or bad are held to this standard. This is also why i often find myself defending this dude when i don't really want to.

eriadoc
09-19-2013, 12:44 PM
Doesn't address the question. Flynn had never played a down for the Seahawks. Where are the examples of established vets with QB ratings in the 90s being subjected to a public open competition?

Hey, I was just answering the question that CT posed to Doc, which had nothing to do with experience, skill level, or the price of rice in China.

I'll come back with a simple answer................When Schaub got his new contract, "open competition" left the building with Elvis.:mcnugget:

Give me an example of an NFL team where that isn't true.

I don't care to involve myself in the debate, but the Seahawks gave Matt Flynn a 3 year, $26M contract with $10M guaranteed, then started Wilson from the first regular season game.

ChampionTexan
09-19-2013, 12:53 PM
Hey, I was just answering the question that CT posed to Doc, which had nothing to do with experience, skill level, or the price of rice in China.

I suppose it's all in how you view it (and no, I admittedly didn't stipulate the contracts being comparable from an economic standpoint - assuming it was understood), but personally, I don't equate a contract with almost $30 Million in guaranteed money and over $20 Million in dead money after year one to a contract with $10 Million in guaranteed money and $4 Million in dead money after year one.

Obviously everyone makes their own determination of what's an apple, and what's an orange, but that's mine.

HJam72
09-19-2013, 12:55 PM
This is such baloney....let's just call a spade a spade, Schaub will never get your support or most of the fans here in this town's full support b/c he doesn't have a rocket arm, he's relatively even kiel and not overly fiery & b/c he's not the flavor of the month "running qb".

The only way people will support this dude is if we win a SB.....emphasis on "win" b/c i feel very strongly that even if he were to lead us to a SB but didn't have a great game people here would find some way to blame him & only him for the loss while simultaneously marginalizing what he did to lead the team there in the 1st place.

& that quite honestly isn't fair to him b/c none of these other qb's whether they're good or bad are held to this standard. This is also why i often find myself defending this dude when i don't really want to.

Schaub had my support most of the time until late last season. He might have it again in the future, but I don't know yet. People expect more than 1 playoff win from a QB that is on a team this stacked. TJ Yates can do that. He is rated in the bottom 3rd of QBs right now, & that's not just one website or one type of rating. It's great that he has led game-winning drives lately, & that was something he really need to do, but even with that, his overall performances have almost sucked. There's a LOT of season left, so we'll see which direction he goes in.

thunderkyss
09-19-2013, 12:58 PM
Because, you know, his years in Denver never had him coaching a mobile QB. :kitten:

Interesting you should say. I don't think it matters how mobile the QB is for Kubiak. If he's exceptionally sharp, like Matt, he can do with a lot less mobility. If he's exceptionally athletic, he can do with a lot less mental acumen.

Look at Jake Plummer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Plummer)'s career in Denver. Matt Schaub's ceiling may very well be AFC Championship game. Just because we bring a "more" mobile QB doesn't mean he'll have a higher ceiling. He's got to have the perfect mixture of both.



The only way people will support this dude is if we win a SB.....



He could win a Super Bowl & I wouldn't support him any more than I do now, wouldn't support him any less either.

However, if goes off in the play-offs & we win the Super Bowl because he had a game like week 1 in San Diego (or Denver last year)... I'd be a Matt Schaub fan for life.

2012Champs
09-19-2013, 01:12 PM
I guess one way of looking at this is that Schaub has 3 int's in 2 games & that will either improve drastically over time or even Kubiak will be looking to replace him. It's a lot like Bullock's situation, except that Schaub has had at least 3 successful seasons in the past & is no learning rookie.

Personally, I don't like Schaub's overall performance last year, especially late in the season, as he continued to get worse as the games counted more. That doesn't make me feel very indebted to him as a fan, but he has not lost us a game yet this season, & in fact has led game-winning drives despite crappy over-all performances (thank God for Lechler & a sometimes stingy D). We'll see if Schaub's first-half performances improve OR his game-winning drives disappear. The first 2 games weren't good enough overall. Last year wasn't good enough overall. Schaub needs to find his pre-2011 injury self, or else.



look at schaub's time here and you will see the two to one ratio is his norm. If he has thrown 6 td and 3 ints and continues this pace they would not get rid of him

2012Champs
09-19-2013, 01:13 PM
Schaub had my support most of the time until late last season. He might have it again in the future, but I don't know yet. People expect more than 1 playoff win from a QB that is on a team this stacked. TJ Yates can do that. He is rated in the bottom 3rd of QBs right now, & that's not just one website or one type of rating. It's great that he has led game-winning drives lately, & that was something he really need to do, but even with that, his overall performances have almost sucked. There's a LOT of season left, so we'll see which direction he goes in.



Just because yates and schaub have playoff records of 1-1 doesnt make them equal. Schaub is far better than Yates and to say "Well Yates can do that" is beyond silly

Mr teX
09-19-2013, 01:15 PM
Schaub had my support most of the time until late last season. He might have it again in the future, but I don't know yet. People expect more than 1 playoff win from a QB that is on a team this stacked. TJ Yates can do that. He is rated in the bottom 3rd of QBs right now, & that's not just one website or one type of rating. It's great that he has led game-winning drives lately, & that was something he really need to do, but even with that, his overall performances have almost sucked. There's a LOT of season left, so we'll see which direction he goes in.

1 playoff win is about the average for most qb's who make it to the playoffs fairly regularly....Hell, that was the case with Manning for a long time before he finally broke through. The same with Flacco. Ryan & to lesser extent Rodgers are the new guy who seem to be 1 & done most years.

Yet, the only guys who even get remotely close to the flack Schaub takes for not winning more in the playoffs is Joe Flacco up until last year & Tony Romo. People gotta stop thinking that 1 playoff win is a bad thing. Manning led his team to the best record in the NFL & he won 0 playoff games last year & has had more of that in his career than any active qb...noone thinks he sucks though.

1st it was "He can't stay healthy.." then it was "he's just not clutch.."...then it was "he can't get us to the playoffs" now it's "he can't lead us to the superbowl". The reality of it is, most fans here just don't like the guy b/c he's not the prototype. His arm strength or something else will always be an issue for them.

Im of the opinion that as long as my team wins & he clearly doesn't show to be the top reason why we can't get to the next level, he's fine.

thunderkyss
09-19-2013, 01:39 PM
1 playoff win is about the average for most qb's who make it to the playoffs fairly regularly....Hell, that was the case with Manning for a long time before he finally broke through. The same with Flacco. Ryan & to lesser extent Rodgers are the new guy who seem to be 1 & done most years.

Yet, the only guys who even get remotely close to the flack Schaub takes for not winning more in the playoffs is Joe Flacco up until last year & Tony Romo. People gotta stop thinking that 1 playoff win is a bad thing. Manning led his team to the best record in the NFL & he won 0 playoff games last year & has had more of that in his career than any active qb...noone thinks he sucks though.

1st it was "He can't stay healthy.." then it was "he's just not clutch.."...then it was "he can't get us to the playoffs" now it's "he can't lead us to the superbowl". The reality of it is, most fans here just don't like the guy b/c he's not the prototype. His arm strength or something else will always be an issue for them.

Im of the opinion that as long as my team wins & he clearly doesn't show to be the top reason why we can't get to the next level, he's fine.

Do you not see a difference between Schaub, Manning, & Rodgers?

Schaub, Romo, Flacco.... are the same guy to me. They do it a little different, but in the end..... they're the same guy.

Ryan. I think Matt Ryan is closer to the Manning & Rodgers group than the Schaub/Flacco group. Schaub, Flacco, & Romo are good enough that you aren't looking for a new QB, but you're looking at once in a blue moon odds of winning the Super Bowl with them & Flacco just reset that clock.

HJam72
09-19-2013, 01:45 PM
Just because yates and schaub have playoff records of 1-1 doesnt make them equal. Schaub is far better than Yates and to say "Well Yates can do that" is beyond silly

Yes, Schaub is better than Yates. Yates is a backup QB. He's not a starter and shouldn't be. We used to argue about whether Schaub could take a stacked team to the Superbowl, but that was when he was a top 10 QB (just not top 5). He has not been a top 10 QB since his 2011 injury. Ever since he came back from that injury (start of 2012 season), he has been 22nd or worse. There have been at least 20 better staring QBs in the NFL for a full season plus 2 games. I am not questioning whether we can continue having winning seasons with Schaub. Assuming we want to win a Superbowl, instead of just being a repeat playoff loser for years to come, what I am questioning is whether we can win the whole thing with a QB that hasn't been in the top half of the league's starters for nearly 2 years in real time.

ObsiWan
09-19-2013, 05:01 PM
Considering the only way that either one of them could be a Texan would be by getting selected higher in the draft than the Texans have ever taken a QB, with the exception of HWSNBN, I would say yes. Rick and Gary wouldn't use that high a pick without the absolute expectation of them becoming a starter relatively quickly.

That has nothing to do with the main question of the thread. The "what if" scenario of when and where they would have been drafted isn't what is being talked about or should be. If either was on this team would they start? I don't care how they got on it.

In my mind, it has everything to do with the question. The Forty-Niners drafted Kaepernick because Harbaugh and Trent Baalke felt they needed a QB. The Seahawks drafted Russell Wilson because John Schneider - and probably Pete Carrol - felt they needed a QB. They didn't just land on a roster where everyone was happy with the QB they had, and while I will say, giving a third round rookie a starting QB job took some nerve, he was competing with a guy who entered the competition with a grand total of two NFL starts to his name (and FWIW, still has two NFL starts to his name, and just got passed over again in a similar set of circumstances). Maybe we should be talking about what a visionary, gutsy organization the Raiders are.

By definition, two guys as highly regarded as Kaepernick and Wilson were coming out of college are only going to end up on a roster if whoever is making the decision on that roster genuinely believe they need a QB.

I guess it's just as valid to ask if the Niners and Seahawks would have drafted Kaepernick and Wilson if they already had a QB they felt was adequate?

When you think about it, the switch Harbaugh and Carroll made is not unlike what Kubiak did when he went out and got the best QB available to him in 2007. He had little faith (okay, none) in Carr being able to run the offense he wanted to run here so he sought out an upgrade.

Harbaugh saw little upside in Smith and Carroll had no ties to Flynn. Both went out and got a guy they thought better suited to the offense they wanted to run. When the time was right, they cut bait with the incumbents and inserted their hand picked starters.

So yeah, why/how the guys ended up on each respective roster has EVERYTHING to do with a head coach's decision to change starting QBs.

Double Barrel
09-19-2013, 06:19 PM
I don't think Kubiak would know what to do with the likes of Kaepernick or Wilson. I think that Dennys menu can only hold plays designed for drop back passers. Athletic QBs add too much of an X factor and they sometimes have to jettison out of a play and make something happen on their own.

As already mentioned, Kubiak coached Elway to two Super Bowls.

And let's not forget his coaching experience with Steve Young during his MVP and Super Bowl championship.

I do not think mobility is high on Kubiak's "must have list", but I do not doubt for an instance that he would work such a skill into the plays if the QB possessed it.

No, neither one would be the starting QB for the Texans.

The only reason Elway did what he did was because of Shannahan. Kubiak wants a QB that protects the ball more than anything else. Schaubs INT's this year would be a bigger cause to Yates starting than anything else.

Shanahan has openly stated that Kubiak was calling the offensive plays as OC for Elway during both Super Bowl championship seasons.

I can't address Texecutioner's point directly because I think he's made up his mind. That said, I recall many wanting Josh Freeman a couple years ago, or Cam Newton after he had a smattering of good games. It's more likely that Wilson and Kaepernick end up the same way. I can't count the number of times I've heard in my lifetime, "This player is going to change the way QB is played forever". Hell, even Joe Flacco looked like Montana reincarnate for a few games in the playoffs last season. Give me Brees, Manning, or Brady any day over the flavour du jour at QB.

This is the second, maybe third, time that the media has gone overboard with "prototype" QBs.

The demise of the pocket passer was all the rage in the late '90's/early 2000s.

Vick, McNabb, Culpepper - these were going to be the first QBs of a new way.

The media blatantly predicted that pocket passers would no longer exist by 2013.

Now look back at the last decade and the QBs winning championships are pocket passers.

Now the mobile read option is all the rage and predictions are up again that pocket QBs are going to be a thing of the past.

BS. The NFL will figure out the read option (already happening) and it will be a fad as a primary offense and go the way of the wildcat, pulled out to trick folks but not a consistent offense because MOBILE QBs GET HURT A LOT.

Unless the NFL passes some goofy rule to have a protection bubble for every QB running down the field...

As far as Texecutioner's hypothetical question: I'd say the answer would be that the QB who wins the off-season/pre-season would start.

I do not believe for an instant that loyalty trumps the right decision. Certainly Kubiak is loyal to Schaub, but I think Kubiak is a HC first and foremost and will pick whoever is the best person to win games for the Texans.

Seegara
09-19-2013, 09:29 PM
My buddies and I had this discussion the other day and we all came to the same conclusion that neither of them would and they would be on the sidelines behind Matt Schaub.

Now if you agree with this, I'd say that this is a huge problem with our HC. Now this is not a "Fire Kubiak" thread or anything, because we all know that idea isn't even up for debate. However, Kubiak's stubbornness has always been a huge problem. I think Kubiak is fully willing to ride Schaub until he is either hurt or until it is to late. I don't think that Kubiak will have any intention what so ever to even consider another QB for maybe another two years. We are in a win now mode, and I felt like our offense looked so much better and had way more versatility when Keenum was running it in the pre season. I'm not trying to suggest that Keenum should start right now, but for the first time I started really liking this Texans Kubiak offense when I saw a mobile guy with a stronger arm running it.

Do you feel that Kaepernick or Wilson would start here "right now?" And if you don't how in the world could you justify that not as a huge problem with the HC's judgement?

Again, this is not some Fire Kubiak thread and I don't want it to go that route. We had this discussion the other day and I thought it was very interesting to discuss.
We are in agreement that neither one would start ahead of Schaub. However, at least Kaepernick and maybe both should start ahead of him if we had them. Head coaches often don't recognize poor performance, but just go along with their coordinators and tend to remain with the status quo. When Gif Nielsen was quarterbacking the Oilers he wasn't replaced until Chuck Studley took over as interim HC, and Nielsen couldn't even hit a receiver 15 yards from him in the flat behind the line of scrimmage.

We have the same problem with kicker replacement. How much is a victory worth to the franchise? A million $$? Yet Bullock is evidently going to stay until he loses a game for us, or beyond.

thunderkyss
09-19-2013, 09:56 PM
We have the same problem with kicker replacement. How much is a victory worth to the franchise? A million $$? Yet Bullock is evidently going to stay until he loses a game for us, or beyond.

That's because none of them are perfect. Given enough opportunity, they'll all miss. Bullock won the game for us in San Diego. He didn't against Tennessee, but he didn't lose it either.

I'm willing to see what happens next time.

HJam72
09-20-2013, 08:32 AM
Well, I'm willing to say that Bullock SUCKED in his first 2 games, but that could change. Maybe he just needs to get over the jitters of being in real NFL games.

Honestly, I might have overreacted in this thread (about Schaub) after seeing the DVOA and DYAR numbers Schaub has right now in the other thread. One thing that stuck out to me was that he has 3 int.s, which is very high for 2 games, but I didn't think about some intangibles, like the fact that D. Brown has kind of sucked lately (probably because of toe problems) & Schaub has been pressured more.

Probably the most accurate thing to say here is that I both have & will change my mind about Schaub a thousand times. Is he good? Yes. Is he good enough? Well, it depends on the day you ask me, I guess.

thunderkyss
09-20-2013, 08:43 AM
One thing that stuck out to me was that he has 3 int.s, which is very high for 2 games

But this is so far outside the norm that I'm not even worried about it. Schaub has consistently laid down the same numbers year after year, if he makes 16 games, there's no doubt in my mind what his stat line is going to look like.

The only thing I question, is how those stats translate to wins. So far, it's 2-0.. with a great game by Schaub & an eh performance by Schaub with a couple of "elite" QB drives.

I'm not a Schaub fan... but I think the conversation about Schaub is about to change. I just got finished reading this excellent BRB piece (http://www.battleredblog.com/2013/9/19/4747498/2013-rookie-review-week-one), this guy does an excellent job of breaking down certain aspects of the game, all of it very correctable. What's not "correctable" is that Hopkins is already playing at a high level (I know I gave him a hard time in another thread, but this guy uses the all22 feed & I was wrong... all there is to it).

His gifs are from the Chargers game. There's no doubt in my mind when the QBs studied the film, they kept saying, "& Hop is open." Matt showed a lot of trust & faith in Nuk in the second game. That's only going to get better.

infantrycak
09-20-2013, 09:31 AM
One thing that stuck out to me was that he has 3 int.s, which is very high for 2 games

Funny thing is it would be much more accurate to say Schaub has gotten off to a banging start with TDs. He is only marginally higher than career for INTs (3.2 % v. 2.5%) while he is significantly higher on TDs (6.5% v. 4.3%). That is without being fair and considering 2 of the 3 INTs were tip balls.

sandman
09-20-2013, 09:57 AM
But this is so far outside the norm that I'm not even worried about it. Schaub has consistently laid down the same numbers year after year, if he makes 16 games, there's no doubt in my mind what his stat line is going to look like.

The only thing that I can see that would change his stats would be a change in execution/play-calling in the Red Zone.

In the last two years, the Texans have been #3 and #5 in FG Attempts, and last year were 20-20 on attempts under 40 yards. Tells me that Gary was comfortable with the "sure thing". Conversely, they were #8 and #12 in TD's. This again shows a preclivity to either play it safe or a lack of execution.

This is a real opportunity for this team, but Schaub only has the ability change one of those outcomes. Of course, Kubiak only has the ability to change one of those as well. It will take them both doing something different than they have in the past in order for those FGA's to turn into XPA's.

Showtime100
09-20-2013, 10:18 AM
Let's line up Schaub, Yates and Keenum and have 'em all pee on an electric fence. The one smart enough to hold his dick with his left hand will be our new starter.

:spit:

After I cleaned the coffee off my computer screen I figured the thread would be over..lol.

2012Champs
09-20-2013, 10:21 AM
Funny thing is it would be much more accurate to say Schaub has gotten off to a banging start with TDs. He is only marginally higher than career for INTs (3.2 % v. 2.5%) while he is significantly higher on TDs (6.5% v. 4.3%). That is without being fair and considering 2 of the 3 INTs were tip balls.



Good way of putting it 51% increase vs 28% and I agree on the tipped balls.

infantrycak
09-20-2013, 10:33 AM
In the last two years, the Texans have been #3 and #5 in FG Attempts, and last year were 20-20 on attempts under 40 yards. Tells me that Gary was comfortable with the "sure thing". Conversely, they were #8 and #12 in TD's. This again shows a preclivity to either play it safe or a lack of execution.

Not sure that shows what you think. The Niners and Giants were #1 and #2 on FG attempts and #10 and #7 on TDs. Is Harbaugh a sure thing, play it safe kind of coach? What that reflects to me is teams getting into scoring position frequently. Of the top 10 scoring teams all but the Saints and Seahawks are high on the FGA list. Look at the 10 fewest FGA teams and all sucked at scoring except for the Saints and Redskins.

ArlingtonTexan
09-20-2013, 11:18 AM
The true outlier in mobility with Kubiak's time working with QBs has Matt Schaub. All of the other QBs he has worked with were at least average (see TJ yates, Greise), if not above (Jake the snake). there are a ton of rolls and bootlegs in this offense. The idea he could not work with Wilson or Kaepernick is faulty in its core premise.

Mr teX
09-20-2013, 06:47 PM
Do you not see a difference between Schaub, Manning, & Rodgers?

Schaub, Romo, Flacco.... are the same guy to me. They do it a little different, but in the end..... they're the same guy.

Ryan. I think Matt Ryan is closer to the Manning & Rodgers group than the Schaub/Flacco group. Schaub, Flacco, & Romo are good enough that you aren't looking for a new QB, but you're looking at once in a blue moon odds of winning the Super Bowl with them & Flacco just reset that clock.

Funny you say that about Ryan & he's led his team to the playoffs more times than Schaub but has won the same amount of playoff games that Schaub has....1. he's also put up worse playoff performances.....worse than anything Schaub has done.

As for your 1st question, Of course I see the difference..the most pronounced difference however is their physical tools....which is all anyone ever harps on...numbers wise though, Schaub holds his own & that should be the only thing anyone cares about.

thunderkyss
09-20-2013, 09:08 PM
Funny you say that about Ryan & he's led his team to the playoffs more times than Schaub but has won the same amount of playoff games that Schaub has....1. he's also put up worse playoff performances.....worse than anything Schaub has done.

As for your 1st question, Of course I see the difference..the most pronounced difference however is their physical tools....which is all anyone ever harps on...numbers wise though, Schaub holds his own & that should be the only thing anyone cares about.

Funny you should mention "funny"


I don't remember seeing Matt Ryan trip over his own two feet in the play offs.

Might have happened, not saying it didn't. But I don't remember.

I like Matt's numbers. I know they're in line with the elite QBs... but like I said in my earlier post, it depends on how they translate to wins. It's all about context.

I remember watching Jake Plummer in Arizona. I never thought it was him holding that team back. He went on to Denver & had some success. Same thing with Matt. No doubt in my mind that 2009 Matt could have won a Super Bowl had he been on a better team.

Now he's on a better team & I have my doubts... but I'm also hoping 2009 Matt comes back.

infantrycak
09-20-2013, 09:35 PM
I don't remember seeing Matt Ryan trip over his own two feet in the play offs.

Might have happened, not saying it didn't. But I don't remember.

To keep it easy - QB rating

2008 - 72.8
2009 - n/a
2010 - 69.0
2011 - 71.1
2012 - 93.8, 114.8

So last year was his first good playoff year.

thunderkyss
09-20-2013, 09:43 PM
To keep it easy - QB rating

2008 - 72.8
2009 - n/a
2010 - 69.0
2011 - 71.1
2012 - 93.8, 114.8

So last year was his first good playoff year.

Great point. Matt Ryan plays well & they go to the NFC Championship game. He doesn't play well & they're one & done.

Mr teX
09-21-2013, 01:57 AM
Great point. Matt Ryan plays well & they go to the NFC Championship game. He doesn't play well & they're one & done.

He didnt even play that well last year in the playoffs. The Seattle game they won, he tossed 2 picks and made that game way more intersting than it probably should've been as they were losing in the 4th. His kicker and defense bailed him out.


In the SF game he did alot of his damage early and the his offense got shut down in the 2nd half....which is what ultimately cost the the game....

thunderkyss
09-21-2013, 08:42 AM
He didnt even play that well last year in the playoffs

So we're back to stats being meaningless...

Mr teX
09-21-2013, 09:36 AM
So we're back to stats being meaningless...


we've been over this subject ad nauseum..all im trying to do is point out the double standard fans have with schaub to show that it doesnt matter what metric we use to grade him.....fans will always dislike him and put at least 2-3 others above him based on nothing more than the infallible "eye test"..

Bulls on Parade
09-21-2013, 10:26 AM
we've been over this subject ad nauseum..all im trying to do is point out the double standard fans have with schaub to show that it doesnt matter what metric we use to grade him.....fans will always dislike him and put at least 2-3 others above him based on nothing more than the infallible "eye test"..
I think part of the problem is the fact those people know we passed up on the likes of Ben Roethlisberger (Dunta Robinson), Aaron Rodgers (Travis Johnson) and even Joe Flacco (traded down for Duane Brown). All three quarterbacks have won at least one Super Bowl and multiple for Big Ben.

They realize the agony that was the David Carr era and while they appreciate Matt Schaub's effort in what is now his 7th season as a Texan, I think the panic meter has grown to a sense of urgency. We want to see Matt Schaub lead us to the promise land especially while most of us would agree this team is stacked on both sides of the ball.

I think the pressure on Matt Schaub isn't quite what it is compared to what Tony Romo faces in Dallas, but it really should be because of the talent Schaub has. I'd be lying if I told you there was a team out there with more talent than the Texans. I'm not even homering. And even if I could find a few it would be a handful at best, as in five or less.

Injuries aside, there is no reason why the Texans can't win it all this year. It's Super Bowl or Bust in my eyes. I believe a lot of people feel the same way as I do.

TexansFTW
09-21-2013, 12:45 PM
we've been over this subject ad nauseum..all im trying to do is point out the double standard fans have with schaub to show that it doesnt matter what metric we use to grade him.....fans will always dislike him and put at least 2-3 others above him based on nothing more than the infallible "eye test"..

Well said bro. How does that expression go again, something like, "haters gonna hate".

I think part of the problem is the fact those people know we passed up on the likes of Ben Roethlisberger (Dunta Robinson), Aaron Rodgers (Travis Johnson) and even Joe Flacco (traded down for Duane Brown). All three quarterbacks have won at least one Super Bowl and multiple for Big Ben.

They realize the agony that was the David Carr era and while they appreciate Matt Schaub's effort in what is now his 7th season as a Texan, I think the panic meter has grown to a sense of urgency. We want to see Matt Schaub lead us to the promise land especially while most of us would agree this team is stacked on both sides of the ball.

I think the pressure on Matt Schaub isn't quite what it is compared to what Tony Romo faces in Dallas, but it really should be because of the talent Schaub has. I'd be lying if I told you there was a team out there with more talent than the Texans. I'm not even homering. And even if I could find a few it would be a handful at best, as in five or less.

Injuries aside, there is no reason why the Texans can't win it all this year. It's Super Bowl or Bust in my eyes. I believe a lot of people feel the same way as I do.

Did those guys win Super Bowls on our team? Because it's definitely not the same thing. What if I told you that I believed Matt Schaub could win a Super Bowl on the Seahawks? It would mean nothing. Also, obviously everyone screwed up passing on ARod, but last time I checked Matt Flynn looked pretty damn good in GB too and has been replaced by nobodies (at the time) everywhere he went after. I don't want to turn this into a ARod is product of the system debate though because I believe he's one of the best regardless, just making a point about different QBs on different teams

As for Matt Ryan the biggest difference is he had monsters at every position, greatest TE of all time. One of the best WRs over the last 8 years, one of the brightest phenoms at WR coming up. And even Michael Turner (until last year) was averaging 4+ YPC and 10-17 TDs a year. This offense means you can't double ANYONE. Schaub just got his chance at this offense with Hopkins in town now opening the field for OD, Dre, and the run game. Through 2 games ( I know this is about to be a stretch ) he's on pace for 5100 yards and 48 TDs. LOL. This is the year Schaub shows he's better than Matt Ryan and everyone else minus the elite 4 (statistically of course).

With that all said, I hear you and agree, this is the year. I had us slated for AFC ship game this year, when it gets to that point just about anything can happen, hopefully Texans Super Bowl.

steelbtexan
09-21-2013, 01:07 PM
Well, I just think that Kubiak likes Schaub because Schaub is a "yes man." He will do whatever Kubiak says and wants and is very under "his control." Schaub doesn't try to deviate from his game plan or improvise which is what a lot of QB's have to do now days more then anything. I don't think that Kubiak trusts Schaub to do a whole lot either which bothers me, because if he is going to be your guy then why not allow him to do a little bit more on his own since he has been in this system for a long time and Schaub is a pretty seasoned vet. I think Kubiak has his plays that he likes and he doesn't really like to adapt away from it depending on who we're playing or what the system of the other team's defense is. I think that Gary has his system and he runs that system the way he plans going into a game and he won't deviate from that plan no matter what circumstances are in a game. And Schaub listens, and Gary likes that.

Now, Kaepernick and Wilson are two great talents. But would they have ever gotten a real chance if they were on this team? THere has never really been an open competition at QB for Schaub. Not that there has been hardly anyone to really compete for it until this off season, but I don't think that Gary has any care in the world to even look.

Gary would never take chances like the Harbaugh's did last yr. It's not in Gary's DNA. So to answer your question, no chance in hades of Wilson/Kap starting in Houston.

Gary not taking chances/playing favorites (Coach Joe must Go) is why the Texans will never win a Lombardi under Gary. All of the Texans need to wear their letter jackets to Sundays including BoB/Gary/Rick and Olsen need to wear them too when the team is on the road. Rah Rah LOL

steelbtexan
09-21-2013, 01:21 PM
Great point. Matt Ryan plays well & they go to the NFC Championship game. He doesn't play well & they're one & done.

Same with Schaub,

Right now the AFC championship game is only a dream for the Texans.

thunderkyss
09-21-2013, 03:19 PM
Same with Schaub,

Right now the AFC championship game is only a dream for the Texans.

To be fair, we haven't been one & done. We've played two play off games both last year & the year before.

& Matt hasn't played well. Took Ryan 4 trips to get to the NFC Championship game. Took Flacco 5 trips to get to the Super Bowl, despite playing well.

Hopefully Matt will play well his second time around.

TdotTexas2Step
09-21-2013, 03:57 PM
To be fair, we haven't been one & done. We've played two play off games both last year & the year before.

& Matt hasn't played well. Took Ryan 4 trips to get to the NFC Championship game. Took Flacco 5 trips to get to the Super Bowl, despite playing well.

Hopefully Matt will play well his second time around.


Thank goodness for those Bengals!

:clap:

thunderkyss
09-21-2013, 05:03 PM
Thank goodness for those Bengals!

:clap:

The Falcons played the Bengal?

Are you saying if not for the Bengal Flacco wouldn't have win the Super Bowl?

TheMatrix31
09-21-2013, 09:24 PM
How many times can you guys discuss the same tired, stupid ****?

Good grief. Schaub is our quarterback. Kaepernick isn't. Wilson isn't. Ryan isn't.

If you want them to be your quarterback go root for San Francisco, Seattle, or Atlanta.

It's beyond beating a dead horse by this point. Every single thread devolves into this bull**** discussion about Schaub. Be more pathetic, why don't we.

Texecutioner
09-21-2013, 09:33 PM
How many times can you guys discuss the same tired, stupid ****?

Good grief. Schaub is our quarterback. Kaepernick isn't. Wilson isn't. Ryan isn't.

If you want them to be your quarterback go root for San Francisco, Seattle, or Atlanta.

It's beyond beating a dead horse by this point. Every single thread devolves into this bull**** discussion about Schaub. Be more pathetic, why don't we.

You were not forced to enter the thread.

It's an interesting topic and subject considering the fact that a lot of people believe that neither would be starting over Schaub. It brings up the question of how long of a leash will Schaub ultimately have and at what consequences? Maybe you think Schaub can lead us to a SB. I don't think it's impossible, but I think we'd have to win in spite of Schaub as opposed to it being because of him. I like Schaub and have defended him here and there over the last two seasons, but I can't for the life of me at this point feel like he can make big play after big play that I see SB winning QB's make on their entire run to the SB. I'd love to be wrong, but I I've seen enough to have a conclusive opinion on this matter. I just wonder how long it takes before Kubiak allows others to compete for the job.

thunderkyss
09-21-2013, 09:47 PM
I like Schaub and have defended him here and there over the last two seasons, but I can't for the life of me at this point feel like he can make big play after big play that I see SB winning QB's make on their entire run to the SB. I'd love to be wrong, but I I've seen enough to have a conclusive opinion on this matter. I just wonder how long it takes before Kubiak allows others to compete for the job.

What did you think of the defense giving up 41 points a second time to the Patriots?

What did you think of Arian's inability to pick up first downs, or DBrown's inability to block it for him?

Are they also on a short leash?

Texecutioner
09-21-2013, 09:52 PM
What did you think of the defense giving up 41 points a second time to the Patriots?

What did you think of Arian's inability to pick up first downs, or DBrown's inability to block it for him?

Are they also on a short leash?

Really off the wall questions here. Arian and Brown were both elite level players at their position. Schaub wasn't. Schaub had looked like crap ending the season and his immobility for years has hurt the team in certain situations especially last season.

Brown and Arian were the least of our problems and Arian had a pretty good playoff. Trying to compare those 3 as if they had the same value at their position is a silly question that I am not surprised you of all people would attempt to ask.

Mr teX
09-22-2013, 12:56 AM
You were not forced to enter the thread.

It's an interesting topic and subject considering the fact that a lot of people believe that neither would be starting over Schaub. It brings up the question of how long of a leash will Schaub ultimately have and at what consequences? Maybe you think Schaub can lead us to a SB. I don't think it's impossible, but I think we'd have to win in spite of Schaub as opposed to it being because of him. I like Schaub and have defended him here and there over the last two seasons, but I can't for the life of me at this point feel like he can make big play after big play that I see SB winning QB's make on their entire run to the SB. I'd love to be wrong, but I I've seen enough to have a conclusive opinion on this matter. I just wonder how long it takes before Kubiak allows others to compete for the job.
I agree, i cant see him willing us single-handedly to the super bowl....that kind of stuff is reserved for the elite and i think everyone agrees he's not elite, despite what Solomon Wilcots may think..:ahhaha:

what i dont understand however is why does it have to be one or the other in regards to the bolded in your post with most fans? Why does everyone think its so far fetched for him to get us to a super bowl by simply pulling his own weight, relying on the rest of his team to handle their business while he makes his share of plays here and there when he's called upon? This is something i can easily see him being able to do b/c if for no other reason, this is how we're built as a team; we simply dont ask our Qb to do alot. Furthermore we're not going to get to a super bowl anyway if every faucet of this team isn't on point anyway.

Noone has a problem with our run 1st philosophy where we dont rely on the qb to do too much.....until it fails, then everyone expects Schaub to come in and save the day...each time he fails, they put the blame solely on him instead of looking at the reasons why we had to depart from our philosophy in the 1st place. The reality of it is is that super bowls largely are won by those teams who can best stay within their philosophy. And when we're clicking on all cylinders, we're we're running the ball well and eating clock....that doesnt require a whole lot from Schaub. All i'm really saying is that you cant really blame a guy for coming up short sometimes when he's forced to perform in a manner that he's not normally asked to perform.

thunderkyss
09-22-2013, 01:01 AM
Really off the wall questions here. Arian and Brown were both elite level players at their position. Schaub wasn't. Schaub had looked like crap ending the season and his immobility for years has hurt the team in certain situations especially last season.

Brown and Arian were the least of our problems and Arian had a pretty good playoff. Trying to compare those 3 as if they had the same value at their position is a silly question that I am not surprised you of all people would attempt to ask.

Silly me. I thought "everyone" was complaining about Arian falling down with minimal contact & his 4.4 & 4.1 ypc in the play offs is nice, it's not elite.

Schaub had a 90.6 passer rating, 66% completion, 343 yards & 2 TDs... not elite, but better than a 4.1 ypc day by a running back.

We needed Arian to have a great day, we needed the defense to have a great day, we needed Schaub to have a great day... none of that happened.

TdotTexas2Step
09-22-2013, 01:09 AM
The Falcons played the Bengal?

Are you saying if not for the Bengal Flacco wouldn't have win the Super Bowl?


In reference to your statement of:

To be fair, we haven't been one & done. We've played two play off games both last year & the year before.

kingtexan
09-22-2013, 11:17 AM
If either of those QB's were in a Texans uniform they would absolutely, without a doubt be starting. Matt doesn't have 50% of the talent of either of those two. Easy question, easy answer.

Texecutioner
10-05-2013, 03:55 PM
Interesting to review the comments in this thread headed into week 5 now.


A lot of really naive posters in here obviously.


I think we all know the answer to the initial question in this thread at this point which should say a lot about the HC of this organization.

ObsiWan
10-05-2013, 08:01 PM
Interesting to review the comments in this thread headed into week 5 now.


A lot of really naive posters in here obviously.


I think we all know the answer to the initial question in this thread at this point which should say a lot about the HC of this organization.
Tex.... I love ya but dude...


You refuse to acknowledge Kubiak has helped coach successful, mobile QBs before in Young, Elway, and Jake Plummer. So to say he's never made use of a mobile QB is bogus.
You refuse to acknowledge that context is everything in this discussion because Kaepernick and Wilson were hand picked by the head coaches that decided to start them over the guy they inherited from the previous administration. So having Kaepernick or Wilson magically appear on the Texans' roster is not an apples-to-apples comparison.
You refuse to acknowledge that both Kaepernick and Wilson were drafted higher, by at least two rounds, than any QB the Smithiak regime has ever drafted. When has Smithiak spent a 2nd or 3rd on someone they didn't expect to start - maybe not right away but within a year or two?? So to infer that a QB drafted as high as those guys were draft and yet wouldn't get a fair shot to start flies in the face of Smithiak history.

So who's really being stubborn?

thunderkyss
10-05-2013, 09:35 PM
Tex.... I love ya but dude...


You refuse to acknowledge Kubiak has helped coach successful, mobile QBs before in Young, Elway, and Jake Plummer. So to say he's never made use of a mobile QB is bogus.
You refuse to acknowledge that context is everything in this discussion because Kaepernick and Wilson were hand picked by the head coaches that decided to start them over the guy they inherited from the previous administration. So having Kaepernick or Wilson magically appear on the Texans' roster is not an apples-to-apples comparison.
You refuse to acknowledge that both Kaepernick and Wilson were drafted higher, by at least two rounds, than any QB the Smithiak regime has ever drafted. When has Smithiak spent a 2nd or 3rd on someone they didn't expect to start - maybe not right away but within a year or two?? So to infer that a QB drafted as high as those guys were draft and yet wouldn't get a fair shot to start flies in the face of Smithiak history.

So who's really being stubborn?

With Kubiak, Wilson & Kaepernick would probably have really great careers. As it is now, I'd wait 'till year three to say one way or the other. They're both being asked to "grow" a little this year, so we'll see what that gets them.

I remember when Stafford & Bradford were "the bomb"

DocBar
10-06-2013, 02:01 AM
With Kubiak, Wilson & Kaepernick would probably have really great careers. As it is now, I'd wait 'till year three to say one way or the other. They're both being asked to "grow" a little this year, so we'll see what that gets them.

I remember when Stafford & Bradford were "the bomb"I've lost count of how many highly touted, highly drafted QB's have bombed.

I think that Carroll showed 2XL balls by starting Wilson over Flynn. I thought Harbaugh was crazy to bench Smith for Kaepernik. Both decisions worked last year, but Kaepernik is stinking it up this year. Wilson looked like flea crap for 3 quarters against us last week.

I applaud Carroll's willingness to back the guy he thought was the better QB. I think Harbaugh made a poor decision. I bet he would love to have Smith back. Of course, the 49's haven't played the Texans yet. Kap will probably look like the 2nd Coming tomorrow night.

thunderkyss
10-06-2013, 09:20 AM
I think Harbaugh made a poor decision. I bet he would love to have Smith back. Of course, the 49's haven't played the Texans yet. Kap will probably look like the 2nd Coming tomorrow night.

I bet Harbaugh wishes he played three of the biggest losers from 2012 & one shell of a 9-7 team more than he wants Kaepernick back. So far, they've only lost to play-off teams.

Tailgate
10-06-2013, 10:13 AM
Tex.... I love ya but dude...


You refuse to acknowledge Kubiak has helped coach successful, mobile QBs before in Young, Elway, and Jake Plummer. So to say he's never made use of a mobile QB is bogus.
You refuse to acknowledge that context is everything in this discussion because Kaepernick and Wilson were hand picked by the head coaches that decided to start them over the guy they inherited from the previous administration. So having Kaepernick or Wilson magically appear on the Texans' roster is not an apples-to-apples comparison.
You refuse to acknowledge that both Kaepernick and Wilson were drafted higher, by at least two rounds, than any QB the Smithiak regime has ever drafted. When has Smithiak spent a 2nd or 3rd on someone they didn't expect to start - maybe not right away but within a year or two?? So to infer that a QB drafted as high as those guys were draft and yet wouldn't get a fair shot to start flies in the face of Smithiak history.

So who's really being stubborn?

Bingo bango, msr.

DocBar
10-06-2013, 12:07 PM
i bet harbaugh wishes he played three of the biggest losers from 2012 & one shell of a 9-7 team more than he wants smith back. So far, they've only lost to play-off teams.fify. And I hope that trend continues tonight.

Texecutioner
10-06-2013, 03:39 PM
:kitten:Tex.... I love ya but dude...

[LIST=1]
You refuse to acknowledge Kubiak has helped coach successful, mobile QBs before in Young, Elway, and Jake Plummer. So to say he's never made use of a mobile QB is bogus.

Spare me with the trivial BS that Kubiak helped Elway. He didn't help Elway to do anything. You guys that hang onto this Denver mirage has just gotten sad at this point. Elway had been to 3 SB's in his early years with Reeves while Kubiak was a stinking backup then he became a guy on the coaching staff later. Elway had been a great QB way before Kubiak ever stepped in to do anything under Shanahan. I never once stated that Kubiak "wouldn't" make use of a mobile QB either way, so I have no idea why you are using that to make a point when that hasn't been argued. But enough with this crap about Kubiak somehow helping Elway.





You refuse to acknowledge that context is everything in this discussion because Kaepernick and Wilson were hand picked by the head coaches that decided to start them over the guy they inherited from the previous administration. So having Kaepernick or Wilson magically appear on the Texans' roster is not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Stop trying to dodge the question. YOu want to reverse things around as if the situation can't be discussed. Well it can. The idea is that if there was a very talented QB on this roster with a lot of potential, would Kubiak even consider the guy? Based on his history here and and the current situation, well it goes without saying that he wouldn't. He sees no problems nor any issues with Schaub and he can't even make himself believe that we could possibly be a better team without trying something else. But it doesn't really matter, because as long as Kubiak is coaching here in a Texans uniform, you are always going to be one of his typical supporters that thinks he can do no wrong as a coach despite the same problems he brings to this team as a HC. Biggest one right now is his typical blind loyalty to Schaub that will ultimately hold this team if it even can make the playoffs this season.

thunderkyss
10-06-2013, 04:13 PM
:kitten:

Spare me with the trivial BS that Kubiak helped Elway. He didn't help Elway to do anything. You guys that hang onto this Denver mirage has just gotten sad at this point. Elway had been to 3 SB's in his early years with Reeves while Kubiak was a stinking backup then he became a guy on the coaching staff later. Elway had been a great QB way before Kubiak ever stepped in to do anything under Shanahan.

Remember this guy?

http://www.teleguida.net/upload_tmp/studio-universal_giorni-di-tuono.jpg

Very talented race car driver. Drive the wheels off anything. But it wasn't until he hooked up with this guy

http://www.onallcylinders.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Harry-Hogge-1.jpg

That he was able to do something really special

http://www.thefancarpet.com/uploaded_assets/images/gallery/3649/Days_of_Thunder_33987_Medium.jpg

DocBar
10-06-2013, 04:16 PM
Remember this guy?

http://www.teleguida.net/upload_tmp/studio-universal_giorni-di-tuono.jpg

Very talented race car driver. Drive the wheels off anything. But it wasn't until he hooked up with this guy

http://www.onallcylinders.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Harry-Hogge-1.jpg

That he was able to do something really special

http://www.thefancarpet.com/uploaded_assets/images/gallery/3649/Days_of_Thunder_33987_Medium.jpgRemember that is a movie not real life. :kitten:

thunderkyss
10-06-2013, 04:28 PM
Remember that is a movie not real life. :kitten:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/668242/what-you-talkin-bout-willis-o.gif

Texecutioner
10-06-2013, 07:39 PM
Remember that is a movie not real life. :kitten:

I don't think he realizes that.

thunderkyss
10-06-2013, 08:13 PM
I don't think he realizes that.

The principal is the same. Elway was farther away from winning a Championship than he was when Shanahan & Kubiak came in.

Hervoyel
10-06-2013, 09:03 PM
I'm ready to conclude that they would not be. Gary does not abandon his guys. He plays them whether they suck or not and nobody is going to tell him otherwise. The only way either of those people (Kaepernick or Wilson) make it to the Texans is if they fall to the 5th round and then neither one ever gets a serious shot at playing because Gary loves Matt. It's a simple as that.

Texecutioner
10-06-2013, 09:10 PM
I'm ready to conclude that they would not be. Gary does not abandon his guys. He plays them whether they suck or not and nobody is going to tell him otherwise. The only way either of those people (Kaepernick or Wilson) make it to the Texans is if they fall to the 5th round and then neither one ever gets a serious shot at playing because Gary loves Matt. It's a simple as that.

That was sort of the point of this thread. It's the fact that Gary has always had this horrible loyalty to players unlike a lot of other coaches. His loyaly to his system, certain players, and his philosophy all together continually hurts this team whether we're a playoff caliber team or a bottom feeder. The common denominator is always this same ole old school mentality of coaching where Kubiak refuses to adjust to today's NFL, and his current team he has on his hands. I saw the signs with this guy in year two and no matter how much I want to trust this guy's knowledge he always proves to me that he learns nothing from previous seasons and failures from the past that have held this team back. He is stuck in his old ways and refuses to adapt to who he plays and never abandons his textbook style of coaching no matter what the current outlook of his team is.

mridge01
10-06-2013, 09:31 PM
They're not kubiak QBs, so no.