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View Full Version : Props to Smith & staff for UDFA finds.


Corrosion
09-01-2013, 08:39 PM
I posted this in another thread (practice squad discussion) but I believe it merits its own thread.


The job Rick Smith and the scouts have done in the past few years finding UDFA's is pretty damn astounding as better than one in five players on the current roster are UDFA's , 11 of 53.

They've also had some pretty good picks at the top of the draft with Watt , Cushing , Jackson among others , the high profile , big $$ players.

Its their ability to find guy's no one else wants and plug them in their system getting solid returns that has allowed them to manage the cap situation and keep the core of this team in tact.


They really deserve a tip of the cap for finding four more UDFA's who made the roster this season , five if you consider Keenum who spent last season on the PS.


There is little doubt about the job Smith & his scouting staff have done in the past few seasons.

Texans UDFA's who are currently on their roster:

Foster
Bouye
Jamison
Braman
Jean
Jefferson
Keenum
Pleasant
Tuggle
Weeks
Wood

That's 11 Undrafted players , several of which are expected to contribute significantly , one of which is a superstar.


If you factor in 5th round and lower picks , I believe they make up right at half the roster.

Playoffs
09-01-2013, 08:55 PM
Yep.

Rick Smith looks smarter every day. http://fishingnetwork.net/forum4/images/smilies/2014_whistling_and_rolling_eyes.gif

BullBlitz
09-01-2013, 09:28 PM
Foster was a real discovery. Dobbins and Jamison are no more than average rotation players. That's 3. Toss out the long snapper and the rest have yet to prove that they belong in the NFL.

Three UDFAs out of 53 isn't unusual.

76Texan
09-01-2013, 09:32 PM
Foster was a real discovery. Dobbins and Jamison are no more than average rotation players. That's 3. Toss out the long snapper and the rest have yet to prove that they belong in the NFL.

Three UDFAs out of 53 isn't unusual.

Dobbins was already removed because he's not an UDFA.

infantrycak
09-01-2013, 10:04 PM
Foster was a real discovery. Dobbins and Jamison are no more than average rotation players. That's 3. Toss out the long snapper and the rest have yet to prove that they belong in the NFL.

Three UDFAs out of 53 isn't unusual.

Four of them are rookies so no duh, just like #1 in the draft they are unproven. Lots of rotation players are draft picks. Going on your 5th year like Jamison or 3rd year like Braman is already a successful career and they have clearly convinced an NFL HC they belong in the NFL. Throwing out Weeks is just silly. Fact is it is a spot being filled without a draft pick.

ArlingtonTexan
09-01-2013, 10:09 PM
Mixed bad on this year's crop for me. Good job of recognizing guys with some trait worth signing, but if the OLBs that were drafted had performed better (or stayed healthy) , Jefferson and maybe even tuggle would not be on the final 53. Same with CB. Roc Carmichael, another mid-round pick, really just had not done the job.

Texanmike02
09-02-2013, 12:56 AM
Foster was a real discovery. Dobbins and Jamison are no more than average rotation players. That's 3. Toss out the long snapper and the rest have yet to prove that they belong in the NFL.

Three UDFAs out of 53 isn't unusual.

What?

Mike

Corrosion
09-02-2013, 01:24 AM
What?

Mike

He cant count past three .... :roast:

steelbtexan
09-02-2013, 01:29 AM
If the Texans were as deep as some make them out to be, then there should be no way 4 UDFA's should make the final 53.

I dont really believe this, I'm just doing my best TK impression. LOL

IDEXAN
09-02-2013, 06:24 AM
But on the other hand, what does it say if Undrafted rookies make the 53-man squad but some of your Draft picks don't ? For example, Undrafted OLB Willie Jefferson makes the team but 4th round pick OLB Travardo Williams doesn't. And don't mention the phony-baloney IR status of TW, that's a fraud.
I dunno, but maybe somebody wasted a 4th round pick ?

Carr Bombed
09-02-2013, 07:39 AM
But on the other hand, what does it say if Undrafted rookies make the 53-man squad but some of your Draft picks don't ? For example, Undrafted OLB Willie Jefferson makes the team but 4th round pick OLB Travardo Williams doesn't. And don't mention the phony-baloney IR status of TW, that's a fraud.
I dunno, but maybe somebody wasted a 4th round pick ?

What it says is the draft is a crap shoot, nothing more, nothing less

Rey
09-02-2013, 07:51 AM
I'm not really impressed. And yeah I'd throw weeks out since no one drafts designated long snappers. I'd be more impressed if the texans drafted a player that could long snap and contribute somewhere else.

As far as the rest of the udfa's...a lot of it is throwing **** against the wall and hoping it sticks. If you fail somewhere in the draft or free agency or simply neglect a position draft wise, then udfa's are going to make your team.

This year, an udfa was going to make the team as the fifth corner. That's because draft pick Carmichael sucked. The two draft picks at olb sucked. That opened the door for udfa's there.

I think they deserve some credit, but some of these guys choose the texans because they look at the roster and see they have a good shot to stick. Texans make a lot of calls to udfa guys. Some choose them some have other offers and go elsewhere.

I'm more inclined to give them credit for late draft picks that pan out. In those cases they identified a guy and drafted him vs an udfa where you aren't guaranteed to get a guy and you have to fill out your camp roster anyways so you're calling a bunch of guys anyways.

cuppacoffee
09-02-2013, 08:16 AM
But on the other hand, what does it say if Undrafted rookies make the 53-man squad but some of your Draft picks don't ? For example, Undrafted OLB Willie Jefferson makes the team but 4th round pick OLB Travardo Williams doesn't. And don't mention the phony-baloney IR status of TW, that's a fraud.
I dunno, but maybe somebody wasted a 4th round pick ?


It could be worse. He is still on the team.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/oakland-raiders-cut-qb-tyler-wilson-fourth-round-184531227--nfl.html

:coffee:

LikeMike
09-02-2013, 08:19 AM
If the Texans were as deep as some make them out to be, then there should be no way 4 UDFA's should make the final 53.

I dont really believe this, I'm just doing my best TK impression. LOL

I don`t really think people believe the Texans are a very deep team. They have a lot of strength in their starters, but when you look past them - HB, QB and maybe WR are alright, the rest is pretty uneven. Our O-line, TE, D-Line, LBs, Ss and perhaps CB backups are suspect to me.

But I don`t care where someone is drafted - if they can contribute I want them on my team. And kudos to Rick Smith for finding guys like Wood every year.

76Texan
09-02-2013, 10:37 AM
The way I look at it is that you need some of these UDFAs to pan out to compensate for the misses.

It's the thing that keeps the Patriots going for a long while now, besides Brady, of course. Due to the hard salary cap, you cannot keep all the good players that you develop; Some go to the wayside via injuries; others are pure misses or don't quite work out.

Look at Belichik's record with the Pats; he has had several busts that he has been compensating for with lower draft picks and UDFAs.

Look at the Ravens; they must be the team that has been having the most compensatory picks for the past decade or so, and they also had to rely on several UDFAs and castoffs.

dalemurphy
09-02-2013, 10:51 AM
But on the other hand, what does it say if Undrafted rookies make the 53-man squad but some of your Draft picks don't ? For example, Undrafted OLB Willie Jefferson makes the team but 4th round pick OLB Travardo Williams doesn't. And don't mention the phony-baloney IR status of TW, that's a fraud.
I dunno, but maybe somebody wasted a 4th round pick ?

Williams made the team... He is on IR. Argue with that if you would like, but remember your argument every time you see randy bullock kickoff out of the end zone. He was stashed on IR last season and will turn around our kick coverage unit this year.

powda
09-02-2013, 10:58 AM
Sounds like some of you guys hate smith so much that you want charley casserly back. Geez, i'll pass. He's not ozzie newsome but how many people are? If smith were fired today I think he'd be first in line for any future gm openings. I like the guy and i'm glad we have him.

dalemurphy
09-02-2013, 11:02 AM
By the way, the texans ability to improve the team depth without crippling the salary cap is predicated on finding success in late rounds and Udfa. Many of those will be two or three year projects, requiring patience. The texans will have multiple extra compensatory picks next year after losing: Casey, barwin, ball, forsett, quin all to qualifying deals.

Good teams, run well, will have 9 to 11 picks most years and will only have 5 or six roster spots available to be filled. Notice how many 3rd and 4th round picks haven't made the team for New England, Pittsburgh, etc...

IDEXAN
09-02-2013, 11:27 AM
Williams made the team... He is on IR. Argue with that if you would like, but remember your argument every time you see randy bullock kickoff out of the end zone. He was stashed on IR last season and will turn around our kick coverage unit this year.
Groin injuries are no joke, I know that from own personal experience back in the day when I was living my very modest athletic "career". And Bullock had a groin "tear". Ouch ! I could imagine that being downright debilitating for a kicker. On the other hand I never heard a definitive explanation about the kind of
injury TW had ? In other words, it was BS plain & simple.

Texecutioner
09-02-2013, 12:06 PM
I don't see what has been so great about the UDFA finds. Foster is the only big time player out of these. Teams all over the NFL have players like this on their rosters. The draft is a crap shoot any ways. All teams every year will have players that don't pan out even in the first round or two. That's why free agents at fair prices have always been the better way to go in my eyes if you feel like the player isn't a contract type of player that will dog it as soon as he signs a new contract. I hate Smith's philosophy of mainly wanting to only build through the draft. It has hurt the team in many other seasons. When he has reached out to get other free agents like he did two off seasons ago the Texans had their biggest improvement ever.

Where I will give Smith and management props as far as drafting goes is their first round picks over the last 5 years. They have been pretty damn good picks especially if Jackson continues to improve like he did last season. Brown, Cushing, Jackson, Watt, Mercilous is a pretty good list of guys over the years. We'll see what happens with Mercilious, but the team needs to put his ass out there for a while and see what he can do. When he got to play last season I liked what I saw. We'll see how Hopkins does this season.

thunderkyss
09-02-2013, 01:50 PM
If the Texans were as deep as some make them out to be, then there should be no way 4 UDFA's should make the final 53.

I dont really believe this, I'm just doing my best TK impression. LOL

Exactly.... I think.


Well... I don't know. Nobody hits on all their picks, then with free agency & roster limitations, y'know.

I don't think we should brag about all the UDFAs we sign, like you (& others have said) it means something didn't go right somewhere else. I personally don't care where we get our players, draft, FA, UDFAs, walk-ons... but I know it's virtually impossible to build through first day picks alone. Low rounders, UDFAs, reasonably priced FAs are going to have to contribute.

A good personnel dept has got to successfully negotiate all avenues.

paycheck71
09-02-2013, 01:51 PM
I'm not really impressed. And yeah I'd throw weeks out since no one drafts designated long snappers. I'd be more impressed if the texans drafted a player that could long snap and contribute somewhere else.



I wonder why more players who are borderline NFL quality don't try to develop the long snapping skills. I'm sure it's easier said than done, but it would be such a huge advantage to someone who's barely good enough to make a roster.

Rey
09-02-2013, 03:15 PM
I wonder why more players who are borderline NFL quality don't try to develop the long snapping skills. I'm sure it's easier said than done, but it would be such a huge advantage to someone who's barely good enough to make a roster.

Some of the guys that can play other positions are drafted. But the guys that are just LS are usually udfa's.

But yeah..it's not all that easy to be a really good LS. If you haven't been working on it for most of your football playing days. Plus, even if you're a fringe guy, it's hard to get noticed if you didn't do it in college. I think more guys should probably get into it when they're younger...but even so, with their being only 32 of them it's still not an easy position to go pro at.

The Pencil Neck
09-02-2013, 03:46 PM
I personally give more props to Smith & Staff for finding and keeping talented players regardless of draft position.

I'm impressed by Duane Brown, Cushing, Watt, KJ, Arian Foster, Ben Tate right now than with some guys who've made the fringe of the team with the hope that they're going to develop into something special (like Braman, Tuggle, Jefferson, Wood, Jean.) I think they've done a pretty good job of injecting talent into this roster and keeping it talented (even when they've had to let some guys go.)

powda
09-02-2013, 03:49 PM
If the Texans were as deep as some make them out to be, then there should be no way 4 UDFA's should make the final 53.

I dont really believe this, I'm just doing my best TK impression. LOL

Ok, what does a good roster mean? How many roster spots on a good team should be up for grabs? 3-4? Does 5-6 roster spots taken by udfa's mean the previous talent was bad or the new talent is great? I don't know how to quantify any of this. What I do know is I see talent like Jefferson and Wood and I like them. If that means a guy like Roc Carmichael gets cut...bye.

To me appraising talent isn't just a matter of getting good players, it's a matter of knowing when to cut good players.

ObsiWan
09-02-2013, 04:30 PM
Ok, what does a good roster mean? How many roster spots on a good team should be up for grabs? 3-4? Does 5-6 roster spots taken by udfa's mean the previous talent was bad or the new talent is great? I don't know how to quantify any of this. What I do know is I see talent like Jefferson and Wood and I like them. If that means a guy like Roc Carmichael gets cut...bye.

To me appraising talent isn't just a matter of getting good players, it's a matter of knowing when to cut good players.

Remember the 10-80-10 rule?
The top ten percent are your studs/stars; the foundation of your team, J.J. Watt, Cushing, Duane Brown, Arian Foster, and, of course, Andre Johnson.

The next 80 percent are your solid, role players... the Antonio Smiths, Owen Daniels, Myers, W. Smith, J. Jo, K. J., D. Manning, yes and even Matt Schaub. Very solid guys; not quite stud level but much better than your usual & customary J.A.G. at their specific position. You don't move these guys unless you can get your mitts on a top 10% guy without breaking the bank.

The last 10% are the guys you are constantly trying to replace. These are the best of the training camp J.A.G.s and perhaps can be developed in a year or two to replace a solid role player guy who might be getting a bit long in the tooth or has been around long enough to be looking for the big payday with his next contract.

To me this is where the F/A's we retained come in. With Tate possibly looking for the "big payday" after this year, will C. Wood be the guy that steps up and takes his spot while we let Tate test the F/A waters? Will Tuggle be the guy that steps up and allows Wade to let Sharpton/Mays walk? Will Quessenberry allow us to let Wade Smith hit the street when his contract is up? Is Willie Jefferson the upgrade over Braman we've been looking for?

That's where these late picks and UDFAs come in.

Oh and that 10-80-10 could be 15-70-15 or 20-60-20 (you're probably in cap hell if you gotta pay 20% of your guys top money though).

I'm pretty sure this was a thread item this time last season and there was much discussion about who belonged in what category.

EllisUnit
09-02-2013, 04:38 PM
I don`t really think people believe the Texans are a very deep team. They have a lot of strength in their starters, but when you look past them - HB, QB and maybe WR are alright, the rest is pretty uneven. Our O-line, TE, D-Line, LBs, Ss and perhaps CB backups are suspect to me.

But I don`t care where someone is drafted - if they can contribute I want them on my team. And kudos to Rick Smith for finding guys like Wood every year.

This is the whole NFL, if we all had back ups who should be starting some where else then they would have to increase the cap by 100 million for every team. The whole point is, is our back up good enough to come in and still contribute, not be a superstar like the guy he's replacing but still get the job done good enough to where the offense or defense dont collapse.

I personally like our back up guys and i think our roster is one of the more talented roster we have ever had.

powda
09-02-2013, 04:55 PM
Remember the 10-80-10 rule?
The top ten percent are your studs/stars; the foundation of your team, J.J. Watt, Cushing, Duane Brown, Arian Foster, and, of course, Andre Johnson.

The next 80 percent are your solid, role players... the Antonio Smiths, Owen Daniels, Myers, W. Smith, J. Jo, K. J., D. Manning, yes and even Matt Schaub. Very solid guys; not quite stud level but much better than your usual & customary J.A.G. at their specific position. You don't move these guys unless you can get your mitts on a top 10% guy without breaking the bank.

The last 10% are the guys you are constantly trying to replace. These are the best of the training camp J.A.G.s and perhaps can be developed in a year or two to replace a solid role player guy who might be getting a bit long in the tooth or has been around long enough to be looking for the big payday with his next contract.

To me this is where the F/A's we retained come in. With Tate possibly looking for the "big payday" after this year, will C. Wood be the guy that steps up and takes his spot while we let Tate test the F/A waters? Will Tuggle be the guy that steps up and allows Wade to let Sharpton/Mays walk? Will Quessenberry allow us to let Wade Smith hit the street when his contract is up? Is Willie Jefferson the upgrade over Braman we've been looking for?

That's where these late picks and UDFAs come in.

Oh and that 10-80-10 could be 15-70-15 or 20-60-20 (you're probably in cap hell if you gotta pay 20% of your guys top money though).

I'm pretty sure this was a thread item this time last season and there was much discussion about who belonged in what category.

Good rationale and I dont think gm's are ever considering talent exclusively like fans. They're considering age, contract status, and injury history more then we are. As long as there's competition and quality new talent brought in I cant complain much.

infantrycak
09-02-2013, 04:59 PM
Some of the guys that can play other positions are drafted. But the guys that are just LS are usually udfa's.

I would bet most are undrafted. I did check the Colts (undrafted) and Titans (just spent a 5th round pick on one).

Rey
09-02-2013, 05:03 PM
I would bet most are undrafted. I did check the Colts (undrafted) and Titans (just spent a 5th round pick on one).

Texans had a guy in like 07 for coffee that was a 7th round pick of the packers I think.

I think the guy on the giants was a fourth round pick...but he plays LB and I think he is on other special teams like kick off and return?

EllisUnit
09-02-2013, 05:07 PM
Skidamarinky dinky dink skidamarinky do i love you


"as long as you produce, regardless of if you were drafted or not" ;)


:pinned:

EVOLVIST
09-02-2013, 10:03 PM
Cierre Wood is always full of good quotes.

(on if he ever heard Chargers LB Manti Te’o’s phone conversations with his girlfriend) “Yeah, I did. It was more along the line of, if I came in here with a goldfish and said, ‘This is my goldfish, Larry.’ You guys are going to go like, ‘Okay.’ It was more along the lines of that. I would come over to ask for a controller and he’d be like, ‘Come talk to my girl.’ It was on the computer screen and it was blank. I really don’t care. I heard someone talking, so I introduced myself, ‘Hi, I’m Cierre. How are you doing? Nice to meet you,’ and just went on about my business.”

And...

(on how good he felt when he stiff armed a Cowboys linebacker in the fourth preseason game) “That’s a tool in my toolbox, could have pulled out anything, could have shook him out of his drawers if I really wanted to. At that point in time, the way he had me at the angle, I just had to give it to him. His hands weren’t up, so I knew he wasn’t going to get me. I tried that with Cush (ILB Brian Cushing) and he almost broke my arm...”

Ha!

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Texans-Quotes-September-2/7f4f4ffc-c919-4293-840c-4e569310a721

fiasco west
09-02-2013, 10:06 PM
Foster was a real discovery. Dobbins and Jamison are no more than average rotation players. That's 3. Toss out the long snapper and the rest have yet to prove that they belong in the NFL.

Three UDFAs out of 53 isn't unusual.

Finding one UDFA that is a franchise player like Foster, top 5 at his position...finding one guy like that is very unusual for a UDFA.

Corrosion
09-02-2013, 10:12 PM
I think this is a thread we will revisit more than once during the coming season ....

Kaiser Toro
09-03-2013, 12:02 AM
Good for Smith's org for UDFA's making the team, which is following suit with the league. I trust there will be accountability on the missed picks, since each pick has more value than an UDFA.

Now it is up Kubiak's staff to coach them up, and we watch.

I am sure we will be revisiting this thread.

speedfreek
09-03-2013, 08:01 AM
An UDFA that can contribute at the level of (and potentially
replace) a draft pick is always better -- they're cheaper.

At least for the first few years.

TJ

ChampionTexan
09-03-2013, 08:48 AM
Exactly.... I think.


Well... I don't know. Nobody hits on all their picks, then with free agency & roster limitations, y'know.

I don't think we should brag about all the UDFAs we sign, like you (& others have said) it means something didn't go right somewhere else. I personally don't care where we get our players, draft, FA, UDFAs, walk-ons... but I know it's virtually impossible to build through first day picks alone. Low rounders, UDFAs, reasonably priced FAs are going to have to contribute.

A good personnel dept has got to successfully negotiate all avenues.
Just as a point of reference, the Patriots have 14 rookies on their team. Seven of those are Patriots draft picks (all their picks made their roster). Four of them are UDFA's signed by the Pats. The remaining three are UDFA's signed by other teams and claimed on waivers by the Pats.

The only thing this really means is that the Pats have 14 players who are really cheap on their roster (their highest draft pick was the #52 overall selection). We'll see how a roster that's over one quarter rookies does when the games start counting.

HOU-TEX
09-03-2013, 09:40 AM
I'll give Smith & Co. props when/if he finds a way to keep Cush, Watt and K-Jax for years to come + drafting a QB of the future.

drs23
09-03-2013, 10:46 AM
I'll give Smith & Co. props when/if he finds a way to keep Cush, Watt and K-Jax for years to come + drafting a QB of the future.

Patience Grasshopper, patience.

Rick will get it done.

Corrosion
09-03-2013, 12:03 PM
I'll give Smith & Co. props when/if he finds a way to keep Cush, Watt and K-Jax for years to come + drafting a QB of the future.

I think they will get that done and these late round picks and UDFA's will surely help afford them the cap space to keep their most important players , those three being integral on the defense.


As for drafting a QB of the future .... QB's are a precious commodity , I hope we don't have to endure a season like the Dolts did in landing Luck. We'll just have to wait and see what the future holds , maybe they take a shot at one with a relatively early pick next season.
I think the circumstances will dictate that decision - are they contenders ? Probably no QB drafted in rounds 1-3 , are they a pretender ?! Good chance they draft one early.

76Texan
09-03-2013, 01:33 PM
I'll give Smith & Co. props when/if he finds a way to keep Cush, Watt and K-Jax for years to come + drafting a QB of the future.

Easy, just cut Schaub. Find another Keenum or Wilson.
Rinse and repeat.

thunderkyss
09-03-2013, 02:57 PM
Easy, just cut Schaub. Find another Keenum or Wilson.
Rinse and repeat.

Because Keenum & Wilson are practically the same thing right?

76Texan
09-03-2013, 03:55 PM
Because Keenum & Wilson are practically the same thing right?

I think Keenum is a little smarter, but Wilson is more athletically gifted and possesses a little more lively arm.

Corrosion
09-03-2013, 05:00 PM
I'll give Smith & Co. props when/if he finds a way to keep Cush, Watt and K-Jax for years to come + drafting a QB of the future.

Mark Berman ‏@MarkBermanFox26 2m
ILB Brian Cushing reaches an agreement on an extension with the Texans. He was in the final year of his contract.


One domino falls ..... :celebration:

Seegara
09-04-2013, 07:36 PM
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