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View Full Version : Pre-season 8/25/2013, Game 3 vs Saints + Top 5 things you are interested in seeing?


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BullBlitz
08-25-2013, 04:34 PM
Hopefully so, he has been great this preseason.

Kareem played that play great. Joseph looked like he didn't give a darn

Yes. Kubiak ought to get the vets out of the game.

ATXtexanfan
08-25-2013, 04:34 PM
Ok, I've heard "thrown just a little behind" too many times today...

True

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 04:35 PM
Capn checkdown anyone :shades:

Lady.Gaga.3000
08-25-2013, 04:35 PM
Ok, we know Bullock can kick the FG from here.

Why not just practice going for it?

BullBlitz
08-25-2013, 04:35 PM
That pass to Andre was so under thrown.

WolverineFan
08-25-2013, 04:35 PM
I wouldn't say KJ got burnt. He had tight coverage and even had a hand in there. That was all Stills.

JJo? Yeah, he was unbuttered toast.

You're completely right on KJ. It was a lazy post and I just lumped him in there with JJo.

Point I was trying to make though was Watt, Smith, & Mitchell were off the field for that drive.

SCOTTexans
08-25-2013, 04:36 PM
2 min offense... fail

eriadoc
08-25-2013, 04:36 PM
Schaub is just off target today. Not impressed with him at all.

Ben Jones has been ticking me off all game.

Pass defense has had some problems, but also some good coverage.

Bulluck is doing pretty well.

And yet again, the Texans land on 16 freakin' points. I absolutely hate that number.

srrono
08-25-2013, 04:36 PM
AJ 7rec for 131yds

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 04:37 PM
2 min offense... fail

What we're you expecting.

Oh where oh where could Case Keenum be

Naiirb
08-25-2013, 04:37 PM
Would of liked theme to go with the 4 quarter last play of the game approach to put some pressure on the offense vs the FG there.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 04:37 PM
Ok, I've heard "thrown just a little behind" too many times today...

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4142796800/hF476F129/

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 04:38 PM
AJ 7rec for 131yds

Just in the first half........

Rey
08-25-2013, 04:38 PM
Kj needs to stop playing defense.

What I mean is when the ball is in the air he needs to have the mindset that its his. He's good everywhere else, but he has not been great at keeping the wr's from making good catches with him right there on them. You have to finish the play. Almost every WR in the league can make those catches if the defender doesn't finish by betting a hand in or going for the pick.

At some point kj has to stop playing the wr and start playing the ball. Become the aggressor once you are in good position. Make a play on the ball.

deucetx
08-25-2013, 04:38 PM
You're completely right on KJ. It was a lazy post and I just lumped him in there with JJo.

Point I was trying to make though was Watt, Smith, & Mitchell were off the field for that drive.

Eh, I would pay that more dividends if he sat in the pocket a while. It was a basic 5-7 step drop and release. The secondary has to be able to cover that long. If they can't then there is an issue.

Kareem was a tad late getting his head around but generally that would have ended up incomplete if thrown at all.

cstyle42
08-25-2013, 04:40 PM
I don't like the mindset of kubiak...

htownfan32
08-25-2013, 04:40 PM
I'm watching from the Firstrow website, so the picture's a little blurry, but on that pass to Andre where he pushed off the CB to make the catch, did Schaub just kinda throw it up there in AJ's general direction when he felt the heat? It looked like he just heaved it towards him without really looking.

TEXANRED
08-25-2013, 04:40 PM
I see we are in regular season form. Settling for field goals in stead of touch down.

SAMURAITEXAN
08-25-2013, 04:41 PM
Ok, we know Bullock can kick the FG from here.

Why not just practice going for it?

Bullock needs practice as well. Since he was injured last year, this is like his first year.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 04:41 PM
Hmmm i am thinking we look like crap and these damn fox guys are talking about how good we look WTF !!!!!

SCOTTexans
08-25-2013, 04:41 PM
What we're you expecting.

Oh where oh where could Case Keenum be



Without Hopkins we have the same old offense of the past. AJ and the run game that's it

gafftop
08-25-2013, 04:42 PM
8 doesn't look good. No mobility, poor foot work is a given. late on throws/off target is starting to happen way too often. Concerned.

mariowillshine15
08-25-2013, 04:42 PM
Andre has 8 targets. The tight ends have 13. other receivers 2. Get well soon Hopkins.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 04:42 PM
Bullock needs practice as well. Since he was injured last year, this is like his first year.

He doesn't need practice for 10 yd FGs..........I hope.

cstyle42
08-25-2013, 04:43 PM
Without Hopkins we have the same old offense of the past. AJ and the run game that's it

Glad to see Schaub on the bench...

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 04:43 PM
Andre has 8 targets. The tight ends have 13. other receivers 2. Get well soon Hopkins.

Not their fault, i have seen Jean and Martin wide open on more than a few plays, and schaub just doesnt see them.

TEXANRED
08-25-2013, 04:43 PM
Without Hopkins we have the same old offense of the past. AJ and the run game that's it

So we either pass the ball or run the ball?

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 04:43 PM
What we're you expecting.

Oh where oh where could Case Keenum be



Get with reality CK would not perform on par with MS.

eriadoc
08-25-2013, 04:43 PM
I'm watching from the Firstrow website, so the picture's a little blurry, but on that pass to Andre where he pushed off the CB to make the catch, did Schaub just kinda throw it up there in AJ's general direction when he felt the heat? It looked like he just heaved it towards him without really looking.

Yep.

I see we are in regular season form. Settling for field goals in stead of touch down.

16 points. They land on 16 points way too frequently to be a great team. 16 points means you failed 3/4 times.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 04:44 PM
Get with reality CK would not perform on par with MS.

Yeah ur right, he would perform under par. Pretty sure thats what ya want :chickendance:

mariowillshine15
08-25-2013, 04:44 PM
Not their fault, i have seen Jean and Martin wide open on more than a few plays, and schaub just doesnt see them.

I don't think Schaub trusts them.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 04:45 PM
Without Hopkins we have the same old offense of the past. AJ and the run game that's it

And keep in mind that the Saints are just now trying to break in their new 3-4 D.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 04:46 PM
I don't think Schaub trusts them.

Jean has looked good this pre season. Better than all the other WRs IMO.

amazing80
08-25-2013, 04:46 PM
AJ looks great.

Tate finally showing life.

Martin is blah. We need Hopkins bad and hopefully Posey eventually turns into a solid number 3.

Schaub is still TERRIBLY immobile lol.

Joseph is starting to worry me. first Wallace bused him now the Saints. Not good.

Crick looks good. Cushing is average. Jefferson looks good.

Bullock and Lechler are on point. Look for Shapiro to get a mystery injury soon :mcnugget:

SAMURAITEXAN
08-25-2013, 04:46 PM
He doesn't need practice for 10 yd FGs..........I hope.

No, I meant FG practice in NFL game.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 04:46 PM
And keep in mind that the Saints are just now trying to break in their new 3-4 D.

Wade did it with zero to no training camp because of the hold out. I dont feel sorry for them

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 04:46 PM
Yeah ur right, he would perform under par. Pretty sure thats what ya want :chickendance:


If Case was better than Matt I'd want him in there but he isn't and no amount of your wishing will get him there. If he is to become better than Matt it's going to take a lot more time

Showtime100
08-25-2013, 04:47 PM
Matt. Move your fuccin feet.

Lol. He looked like a thoroughbred out there, but a 32-year-old thoroughbred unfortunately.

:mcnugget:

Brisco_County
08-25-2013, 04:47 PM
The amount of time Schaub has to throw is directly related to how long Newton is able to protect. And Matt isn't so awesome when he has to make quick reads.

SCOTTexans
08-25-2013, 04:47 PM
So we either pass the ball or run the ball?



So your opinion of a passing game is to just throw it to AJ?

eriadoc
08-25-2013, 04:48 PM
The amount of time Schaub has to throw is directly related to how long Newton is able to protect. And Matt isn't so awesome when he has to make quick reads.

Between Newton and Ben Jones, the pass pro sucks often enough that he's not going to trust it.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 04:48 PM
If Case was better than Matt I'd want him in there but he isn't and no amount of your wishing will get him there. If he is to become better than Matt it's going to take a lot more time

Let me put it this way Matt has reached his ceiling. CK has a long ways to go, and i believe over time it will greatly exceed Schaubs.

Thorn
08-25-2013, 04:49 PM
The offense and defense both had spurts of goodness mixed with spurts of ineptitude. Not what I wanted to see out of the first string. Defending Brees though is no easy task, I'll give the defense that.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 04:49 PM
No, I meant FG practice in NFL game.

Sorry, but if he needs practice in a game....at 10 yds..........I'm going to start worrying.

SAMURAITEXAN
08-25-2013, 04:50 PM
We know AJ is great but I really want to other WRs shows up for this game. We need reliable #3.

Showtime100
08-25-2013, 04:50 PM
I don't think Schaub trusts them.

Maybe his arm is telling him he'd better try something safer.

Actually Schaub looked alright compared to what I was expecting. I'm not a big believer in #8 at the moment, but he's all we got if you want to go to the Bowl.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 04:50 PM
The offense and defense both had spurts of goodness mixed with spurts of ineptitude. Not what I wanted to see out of the first string. Defending Brees though is no easy task, I'll give the defense that.

The struggling 1st string D against their 2nd string O is what has me worried !

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 04:50 PM
Let me put it this way Matt has reached his ceiling. CK has a long ways to go, and i believe over time it will greatly exceed Schaubs.


Well now that your expert opinion is out there the Texans will be better off with Matt as the starter now instead of Case

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 04:50 PM
The offense and defense both had spurts of goodness mixed with spurts of ineptitude. Not what I wanted to see out of the first string. Defending Brees though is no easy task, I'll give the defense that.

The problem is that I believe a good deal of the Saints D were out after the 2nd Q.

eriadoc
08-25-2013, 04:50 PM
The offense and defense both had spurts of goodness mixed with spurts of ineptitude. Not what I wanted to see out of the first string. Defending Brees though is no easy task, I'll give the defense that.

Brees didn't do much, TBH. He hit Ingram on a check-down and Mays pooched the tackle, so it was run in for a TD. It was McCown who was passing it downfield.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 04:51 PM
I love me some Joe.

Rey
08-25-2013, 04:51 PM
Joe: "hey, kick it shorter...give the coverage unit some work.

Announcer: "Touchdown!!"

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 04:51 PM
hmmmm where was the PI ?

Thorn
08-25-2013, 04:51 PM
The struggling 1st string D against their 2nd string O is what has me worried !

Yep, and there'll be no more 1st string until the Charger game now.

Goodwrench3
08-25-2013, 04:51 PM
ST sucking again

OzzO
08-25-2013, 04:52 PM
Hmmm... not digging that PI call on Harris. He was all over him but also playing the ball. Ah well.

eriadoc
08-25-2013, 04:52 PM
Tackling.

Rey
08-25-2013, 04:52 PM
Brice McCain sucks.

Malloy
08-25-2013, 04:52 PM
Ask me if I'm tierd of Brandon Harris?

mariowillshine15
08-25-2013, 04:52 PM
Maybe his arm is telling him he'd better try something safer.

Actually Schaub looked alright compared to what I was expecting. I'm not a big believer in #8 at the moment, but he's all we got if you want to go to the Bowl.

The Pro Bowl? He was the MVP of that one year lol.

SAMURAITEXAN
08-25-2013, 04:52 PM
Sorry, but if he needs practice in a game....at 10 yds..........I'm going to start worrying.

I understand what you mean Doc. I want Bullock to getting into a groove of things. This is all.

dtran04
08-25-2013, 04:53 PM
Got screwed this drive on that call. Oh well. Better now than later.

srrono
08-25-2013, 04:53 PM
James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN 8s

Garrett Graham getting looked at by training staff on the sideline. They are looking at his right hip. #Texans

Goodwrench3
08-25-2013, 04:53 PM
Terrible, terrible

phantom17
08-25-2013, 04:54 PM
Ask me if I'm tierd of Brandon Harris?

Me too!

cstyle42
08-25-2013, 04:55 PM
Is our secondary this overrated?

Goodwrench3
08-25-2013, 04:56 PM
We are screwed with that secondary in the regular season

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 04:56 PM
James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN 8s

Garrett Graham getting looked at by training staff on the sideline. They are looking at his right hip. #Texans

That's OK, Schaub doesn't see Johnson on the back of his jersey.:kitten:

OzzO
08-25-2013, 04:57 PM
Is our secondary this overrated?

I'm hoping it's a "those not on the bubble are playing like it" for the preseason and that the magic will happen in the regular season.

BullBlitz
08-25-2013, 04:57 PM
Yates. Ugh.

rmartin65
08-25-2013, 04:59 PM
Yates. Ugh.

Has he even thrown the ball yet?

BullBlitz
08-25-2013, 05:00 PM
Good catch Jean.

Rey
08-25-2013, 05:00 PM
I guess Schaub has a good reason to not trust Lestar.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:00 PM
Why cant Schaub ever look Jeans way. Gled he's a fav with yates and case

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:01 PM
Yates has a mean handoff.

BullBlitz
08-25-2013, 05:01 PM
Has he even thrown the ball yet?

Just did. Nice catch by Jean.

mariowillshine15
08-25-2013, 05:01 PM
Johnson finally looking good on some runs. Easily has the best speed of the backs.

Goodwrench3
08-25-2013, 05:02 PM
Karim's looking good so far

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:02 PM
Johnson finally looking good on some runs. Easily has the best speed of the backs.

He isnt dancing, thats why !

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:02 PM
Why cant Schaub ever look Jeans way. Gled he's a fav with yates and case

Simple....he doesn't recognize the name on the back of the jersey.

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:03 PM
Who is the best WR on the field now for the texans?

Who is the best WR on the field when Schaub is in?


I'm not sure what the shock is that AJ gets more targets or why jean is overlooked

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:03 PM
Thrown behind him.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:04 PM
Who is the best WR on the field now for the texans?

Who is the best WR on the field when Schaub is in?


I'm not sure what the shock is that AJ gets more targets or why jean is overlooked

Everyone is overlooked when AJ is out there. Cause Schaub knows he can tthrow lame ducks up and AJ can still come down with it.

ATXtexanfan
08-25-2013, 05:04 PM
Come on yates

gafftop
08-25-2013, 05:04 PM
Night and day in mobility between qbs. I think ms's mobility problem affects his timing. Also he has a longggg delivery.

Uncle Rico
08-25-2013, 05:05 PM
Kenny Vaccaro is kinda good, wish he was wearing deep steel blue.

Lurvinator11
08-25-2013, 05:05 PM
That was just disgusting to watch.

Uncle Rico
08-25-2013, 05:05 PM
Welcome to the NFL Karim, now have a seat.

ATXtexanfan
08-25-2013, 05:06 PM
Well he got stood up

BullBlitz
08-25-2013, 05:06 PM
You can't tell much from these preseason games. That's a god thing this year. I don't think we look too dominating.

Goodwrench3
08-25-2013, 05:06 PM
Ugh

OzzO
08-25-2013, 05:06 PM
Was DJ a little slow on following his leads on that 4th a goal? Seems like others were long gone and he was on his own to get in.

Thorn
08-25-2013, 05:06 PM
Nice drive, lousy ending.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:07 PM
You want to talk about a direct helmet to helmet with the RB putting his head down........Karim just did it and luckily wasn't called for it.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:07 PM
You can't tell much from these preseason games. That's a god thing this year. I don't think we look too dominating.

HAHA well its a good thing i dont really care what ya think. Are you even a texans fan ?

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:08 PM
Everyone is overlooked when AJ is out there. Cause Schaub knows he can tthrow lame ducks up and AJ can still come down with it.


And it was the same for Yates and would be for any other qb. Your best receiver by far is going to be who you trust the most, get the most targets and likely catches too.

gafftop
08-25-2013, 05:09 PM
Don't see what the coaches see in 39. I would rate as last back.

SCOTTexans
08-25-2013, 05:09 PM
Has any player been flagged for leading with crown of the helmet when running? I thought kareems run would be a flag

Texn4life
08-25-2013, 05:10 PM
You can't tell much from these preseason games. That's a god thing this year. I don't think we look too dominating.

Have you seen the Patriots preseason record over the years? Might wanna check that out.

mariowillshine15
08-25-2013, 05:10 PM
Who teaches tackling this is awful.

playa465
08-25-2013, 05:10 PM
You want to talk about a direct helmet to helmet with the RB putting his head down........Karim just did it and luckily wasn't called for it.

No penalty, I think the rules applies when the RB lowers his head to meet the defender when outside the tackle box or more than three yards down field

Goodwrench3
08-25-2013, 05:10 PM
Too many missed tackles....

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:11 PM
You want to talk about a direct helmet to helmet with the RB putting his head down........Karim just did it and luckily wasn't called for it.

Has any player been flagged for leading with crown of the helmet when running? I thought kareems run would be a flag

It wasn't even subtle.

EVOLVIST
08-25-2013, 05:11 PM
Now we have Opie Friggin' Taylor in at QB for the Saints.

He'll throw it to any Gomer her wants to and shred us up.

Rey
08-25-2013, 05:12 PM
Cierre runs like Arian.

Rey
08-25-2013, 05:12 PM
Man give me lemon over Martin.

Pantherstang84
08-25-2013, 05:12 PM
Sign that Lemon guy.

Uncle Rico
08-25-2013, 05:13 PM
Lemon looks like a player to me.

ChrisG
08-25-2013, 05:13 PM
Has any player been flagged for leading with crown of the helmet when running? I thought kareems run would be a flag

I think u have to be outside the tackle box.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:13 PM
And it was the same for Yates and would be for any other qb. Your best receiver by far is going to be who you trust the most, get the most targets and likely catches too.

Yes i know that AJ will and should always be his first option. My point is he "should" reads. A progression he goes through. BUT often times it appears he dont even see what is going on with everyone else, or to even see if the other WRs are wide open.

Sorry but that is a problem he needs to work on.

mariowillshine15
08-25-2013, 05:14 PM
If Johnson keeps the dancing to a minimum i really like his burst.

SCOTTexans
08-25-2013, 05:14 PM
No penalty, I think the rules applies when the RB lowers his head to meet the defender when outside the tackle box or more than three yards down field



Right... forgot about that detail

Uncle Rico
08-25-2013, 05:14 PM
Clutts needs to set the edge much faster than that, he gets to his guy that play is in celebratory stage.

dc_txtech
08-25-2013, 05:15 PM
Has any player been flagged for leading with crown of the helmet when running? I thought kareems run would be a flag

I thought you were allowed to lower your head in between the tackles or something along those lines.

OzzO
08-25-2013, 05:15 PM
Ok, I've heard "thrown just a little behind" too many times today...

Intererstingly, haven't heard this since a certain QB stepped out of the game.

kiwitexansfan
08-25-2013, 05:15 PM
Johnson shows the most potential of our RBs. I think I like him more than Tate even.

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:16 PM
Yes i know that AJ will and should always be his first option. My point is he "should" reads. A progression he goes through. BUT often times it appears he dont even see what is going on with everyone else, or to even see if the other WRs are wide open.

Sorry but that is a problem he needs to work on.



How many targets did OD get in the first half? And AJ?

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:16 PM
How many targets did OD get in the first half? And AJ?

So we only have 2 guys running routes ?

I think your missing my point.

gafftop
08-25-2013, 05:17 PM
If Johnson keeps the dancing to a minimum i really like his burst.

Agree. So far he has left dancing shoes at home.

mariowillshine15
08-25-2013, 05:17 PM
Martin i mean Lemon drops a TD

Pantherstang84
08-25-2013, 05:17 PM
Sign that Lemon guy.

Nevermind

Rey
08-25-2013, 05:17 PM
Welp. Who else we got.

playa465
08-25-2013, 05:18 PM
WOW, that drop!!

Uncle Rico
08-25-2013, 05:18 PM
Aaaaaand I take back everything I've said about Lemon.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:18 PM
No penalty, I think the rules applies when the RB lowers his head to meet the defender when outside the tackle box or more than three yards down field



I think you are correct, but can't understand for sure the bolded.

A 15-yard penalty, and the offending player will also be subject to a possible fine. If an offensive player and a defensive player both lower their heads, the resulting penalties will offset. The rule will only be in effect when both players clearly are outside the tackle box (an area extending from tackle-to-tackle and from 3 yards beyond the line of scrimmage to the offensive team's end line).

Rey
08-25-2013, 05:19 PM
Good make up

OzzO
08-25-2013, 05:19 PM
Good for Lemon, and for Yates to go back to him.

Pantherstang84
08-25-2013, 05:19 PM
Aaaaaand I take back everything I've said about Lemon.

me too

Texn4life
08-25-2013, 05:20 PM
You guys crack me up! "I love him........ No I hate him....... Wait, I love him again!"

Rey
08-25-2013, 05:21 PM
Wow...so you can still score a TD after a dropped pass in the EZ.

Amazing stuff.

SCOTTexans
08-25-2013, 05:21 PM
Aaaaaand I take back everything I've said about Lemon.

Lol you should stop calling Lemon out... Seems like he will do the opposite

Pantherstang84
08-25-2013, 05:22 PM
You guys crack me up! "I love him........ No I hate him....... Wait, I love him again!"

Make sure you check back with us every 30 seconds for the latest. lol

Uncle Rico
08-25-2013, 05:23 PM
Snap! that commentator just "cool story bro'd" Brian Billick!

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:23 PM
So we only have 2 guys running routes ?

I think your missing my point.


I'm not missing your point. I think you and some others are overblowing the AJ targets and acting as though Matt wouldn't throw it to anyone else.


If OD caught his targets he could have posted 100+ yards too or rather AJ would have had less of a chance to post the same.

I also note you failed to answer the question which would have shown not only did Matt target others but AJ wasnt his most popular choice.

htownfan32
08-25-2013, 05:23 PM
I think Yates looks good today, more focused and more on-point. It looks night and day from the first pre-season game and right now.

Uncle Rico
08-25-2013, 05:24 PM
Lol you should stop calling Lemon out... Seems like he will do the opposite

Im just here to help! (He should have caught the 1st one)

SAMURAITEXAN
08-25-2013, 05:24 PM
Like I've been saying. I want to see reliable #3 WR candidate to shows up. There were so many drops by WRs except for AJ of course.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:24 PM
I'm looking for the nose-picker.

Rey
08-25-2013, 05:24 PM
Has sharpton played today?

Showtime100
08-25-2013, 05:25 PM
The Pro Bowl? He was the MVP of that one year lol.

Lol!!!!!! Yeah right. We're in preseason and I'm thinking about a game even more meaningless than the game I'm watching.

I'm talking about Houston's goal of the Super Bowl and thought simply "Bowl" was clear enough. Geezus.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:27 PM
Has sharpton played today?

NO!

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:27 PM
I'm not missing your point. I think you and some others are overblowing the AJ targets and acting as though Matt wouldn't throw it to anyone else.


If OD caught his targets he could have posted 100+ yards too or rather AJ would have had less of a chance to post the same.

I also note you failed to answer the question which would have shown not only did Matt target others but AJ wasnt his most popular choice.

Dude O.D is a reliable target also, i was simply stating A LOT of times Schaub had wide open guys that he failed to see. Take the play where he threw the ball into double coverage that almost got picked on the check down. Its the only place he looked. There were 2 wide open guys on that play.

mariowillshine15
08-25-2013, 05:27 PM
Lol!!!!!! Yeah right. We're in preseason and I'm thinking about a game even more meaningless than the game I'm watching.

I'm talking about Houston's goal of the Super Bowl and thought simply "Bowl" was clear enough. Geezus.

It was a joke lol. I knew what you were talking about.

Rey
08-25-2013, 05:29 PM
She has a schnoz

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:29 PM
Dude O.D is a reliable target also, i was simply stating A LOT of times Schaub had wide open guys that he failed to see. Take the play where he threw the ball into double coverage that almost got picked on the check down. Its the only place he looked. There were 2 wide open guys on that play.


I'm not sure you are aware of the but watching things on tv is certainly a little different than playing. I'm sure you always see all the open receivers that QBs don't. Just because you see something on tv doesn't mean it's a valid option

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:30 PM
She has a schnoz

It has been "done.":kitten:

Pantherstang84
08-25-2013, 05:31 PM
She has a schnoz

It needs to be next to go along with the rest of the work she had done.

Pantherstang84
08-25-2013, 05:31 PM
It has been "done.":kitten:

needs improvement.

htownfan32
08-25-2013, 05:32 PM
Man, JJ is an angel in disguise

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:32 PM
I'm not sure you are aware of the but watching things on tv is certainly a little different than playing. I'm sure you always see all the open receivers that QBs don't. Just because you see something on tv doesn't mean it's a valid option

Same goes for the person on the other side saying it aint so.

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 05:32 PM
I'm looking for the nose-picker.

now just stop that.
:foottap:

Wolf6151
08-25-2013, 05:33 PM
It has been "done.":kitten:

It needs to be done again, along with a lot of other needed work. FOX has a lot of hotties, she ain't one of them.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:33 PM
We have got to be one of the worst screen teams.....

Lurvinator11
08-25-2013, 05:33 PM
These screen passes are destroying us. Wade has got to do something to improve on that.

legacy_gt
08-25-2013, 05:35 PM
just throw a screen....we can't beat that. :wadepalm:

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:35 PM
Same goes for the person on the other side saying it aint so.


That's a pretty piss poor retort. It's pretty safe to assume playing the game and what you can see is different than Joe Blow and his 60" HDTV

Goodwrench3
08-25-2013, 05:35 PM
Crap

Pantherstang84
08-25-2013, 05:36 PM
These screen passes are destroying us. Wade has got to do something to improve on that.

Live by the blitz die by the blitz.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:36 PM
just throw a screen....we can't beat that. :wadepalm:


wide open for that screen.....just dropped.

playa465
08-25-2013, 05:36 PM
I think you are correct, but can't understand for sure the bolded.

A 15-yard penalty, and the offending player will also be subject to a possible fine. If an offensive player and a defensive player both lower their heads, the resulting penalties will offset. The rule will only be in effect when both players clearly are outside the tackle box (an area extending from tackle-to-tackle and from 3 yards beyond the line of scrimmage to the offensive team's end line).

I think it refers to the two lines of scrimmage in football. One for the offense and one for the defense. The space in between is the neutral zone. In the case of this rule I would guess it means the offensive LOS

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:37 PM
That's a pretty piss poor retort. It's pretty safe to assume playing the game and what you can see is different than Joe Blow and his 60" HDTV

No its not, u are assuming the guys werent open because we see it on TV intead of being the actual ones on the field. Considering neither guy had a guy within 6 yards its safe to assume they were open.

Pantherstang84
08-25-2013, 05:37 PM
Man that defense. Time to go back to work Wade.

Goodwrench3
08-25-2013, 05:37 PM
....

Lurvinator11
08-25-2013, 05:39 PM
You can't defend that pass, but mannnnnnnnnnnn.

LikeMike
08-25-2013, 05:39 PM
Any word on Mittchel?

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:40 PM
No its not, u are assuming the guys werent open because we see it on TV intead of being the actual ones on the field. Considering neither guy had a guy within 6 yards its safe to assume they were open.


I can see what your problem is and it's that you can't read. I never said guys weren't open. Guy's being open and you seeing it on TV doesn't mean it's an option for a QB to actually throw to. You seem to lack the ability to understand perspective but its something that is rather important to the topic.

Tailgate
08-25-2013, 05:40 PM
D will be ready people. I'm so over this preseason biz.

legacy_gt
08-25-2013, 05:40 PM
tanner talkin smack to the crowd...lol

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:41 PM
I think it refers to the two lines of scrimmage in football. One for the offense and one for the defense. The space in between is the neutral zone. In the case of this rule I would guess it means the offensive LOS

Awfully funny wording....still confusing.

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 05:42 PM
Well that's one way for the D to get off the field; let them score.
:wadepalm:

:wadepalm:

Brisco_County
08-25-2013, 05:42 PM
And there's a Jacoby Jones sighting. In a Verizon commercial.

Tailgate
08-25-2013, 05:42 PM
Peanut butter Keenum time

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 05:43 PM
Incomplete pass by Keenum

Cut him!!

:hides:

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:43 PM
I can see what your problem is and it's that you can't read. I never said guys weren't open. Guy's being open and you seeing it on TV doesn't mean it's an option for a QB to actually throw to. You seem to lack the ability to understand perspective but its something that is rather important to the topic.

You said that its different watching it on TV than it is in person, well no ****. My point is you are assuming that it was Schaubs good decesion making is the reason he didnt throw it to them, and saying there is something we arent seeing because we are watching it on TV.

The 2 guys were wide open, closest defender was 6 yards BEHIND the WR. Dont arguing about it, i know what i saw.

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:44 PM
Now that something Matt isn't going to do

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:45 PM
Now that something Matt isn't going to do

He didnt really run, you are watching it on TV. Its different :kitten:

Mr teX
08-25-2013, 05:45 PM
Swearinger looks terrible out there...he's all but assuring keo will be that 3rd safety...:mariopalm:

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:46 PM
You said that its different watching it on TV than it is in person, well no ****. My point is you are assuming that it was Schaubs good decesion making is the reason he didnt throw it to them, and saying there is something we arent seeing because we are watching it on TV.

The 2 guys were wide open, closest defender was 6 yards BEHIND the WR. Dont arguing about it, i know what i saw.



Christ you can't comprehend anything. I also never said anything was because of Schaub's good decision.

Do you know what a throwing lane is?

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:47 PM
Christ you can't comprehend anything. I also never said anything was because of Schaub's good decision.

Do you know what a throwing lane is?

YES if you read i said the closest guy was 6 yards behind the WR. There was no LBs or anything in front of them. This is why i KNOW they were wide open. Common sense never hurt anyone, you should try it !

Texn4life
08-25-2013, 05:47 PM
Any word on Mittchel?

He came back in the game so I'm guessing he's fine.

Brisco_County
08-25-2013, 05:49 PM
Preseason doesn't tell you everything, but sometimes it tells you that right tackle is a major concern three games in a row.

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:51 PM
YES if you read i said the closest guy was 6 yards behind the WR. There was no LBs or anything in front of them. This is why i KNOW they were wide open. Common sense never hurt anyone, you should try it !

Nothing you have said addresses throwing lanes. I never said the other WR weren't open. English must not be your first language but I will try again and slower for you


Just because you see WR open on TV doesn't mean it's a valid option for a QB, throwing lanes do not always allow for it to be an option.


Chew on it and think it through before you add statements in there that I didn't say

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:51 PM
What is with these long interviews DURING the game with no narration????????

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 05:52 PM
uh oh...

got the wind knocked out of him you think ?

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:52 PM
uh oh...

got the wind knocked out of him you think ?


Hopefully his head didn't bounce off the turf

mariowillshine15
08-25-2013, 05:52 PM
Hi grandma SHUT YOU DOWN!

Malloy
08-25-2013, 05:53 PM
uh oh...

got the wind knocked out of him you think ?

Hope so but I don't think so. We're a dirty team remember ;)

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 05:53 PM
KJ didn't look back at all.

EllisUnit
08-25-2013, 05:53 PM
Nothing you have said addresses throwing lanes. I never said the other WR weren't open.

Ok so then why even start arguing with me about it ? That was my whole point about the post is that they were open. Yes i am watching it on TV. And yes sometimes u cant see everything but here it was a spread field and you could clearly see the guys open.

Anyways done arguing. Sorry i kinda lost my cool. No harm intended.

Playoffs
08-25-2013, 05:54 PM
What is with these long interviews DURING the game with no narration????????

Preseason shenanigans. Every team is doing it. Must be a Goodell idea.

KA4Texan
08-25-2013, 05:54 PM
Man, JJ is an angel in disguise

That or he drinks a hell of a lot of redbull.

Something gave him wings cause, white man can't jump.

Maybe like the Chinese all gave up their height to invest it into Yao Ming

We white folks gave up our jumping ability to invest it in JJ. :kitten:

OzzO
08-25-2013, 05:54 PM
Nothing you have said addresses throwing lanes. ...

... and this is the first time you've mentioned throwing lanes. Let it go already.

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:55 PM
Ok so then why even start arguing with me about it ? That was my whole point about the post is that they were open. Yes i am watching it on TV. And yes sometimes u cant see everything but here it was a spread field and you could clearly see the guys open.

Anyways done arguing. Sorry i kinda lost my cool. No harm intended.




My point is that any qb can't always see what we see. Much easier to spot guys from home and even if they see them they can't always throw it anyhow

2012Champs
08-25-2013, 05:55 PM
... and this is the first time you've mentioned throwing lanes. Let it go already.



Actually it wasnt but try to keep up if you want to chime in

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 05:57 PM
That Sleepy Hollow looks interesting...

OzzO
08-25-2013, 05:58 PM
Actually it wasnt but try to keep up if you want to chime in

Nah, your arguments tend to be repetitive. But thanks for the invite.

Malloy
08-25-2013, 05:59 PM
That Sleepy Hollow looks interesting...

Think I'll prefer Tim Burtons..

Malloy
08-25-2013, 05:59 PM
Lemon seeing alot of action

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 06:00 PM
Hard to "see what these young running backs can do" when we're going five WR every down.
:D

Lurvinator11
08-25-2013, 06:00 PM
That Sleepy Hollow looks interesting...

It looks like a midseason cancel

Wolf6151
08-25-2013, 06:02 PM
Anyone else notice every time they show that new big screen in the stadium, it's 2/3rds advertisements.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 06:03 PM
There has been absolutely NO useful commentary during this game. I guess that allows them to not have to learn players' names or anything else about them. They even called Yates Keenum.

If that's Goodell partly, the rest is laziness.

gafftop
08-25-2013, 06:03 PM
I wonder if DB coach for Texans teaches chase and hope his technique. Just one of the reasons I hate this type of coverage is your chances of a TO is greatly reduced.

Mr teX
08-25-2013, 06:03 PM
Lemon seeing alot of action

Keep him to develop.....i'd like to see keyshawn martin of lestar jean shipped up outta here....stone hands those 2.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 06:06 PM
Someone put a sock in the announcers' mouths.

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 06:07 PM
What happened?
I got momentarily distracted by women's beach volleyball on the CBS sports channel.
:D

OzzO
08-25-2013, 06:07 PM
Bleh, a little quick on trying to run there, Case.

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 06:08 PM
Bad pass.
Cut him.
:kitten:

Rey
08-25-2013, 06:08 PM
Bleh, a little quick on trying to run there, Case.

Looked like a called draw...not sure.

Lurvinator11
08-25-2013, 06:08 PM
We looked good in the first quarter, but then it seemed like the wheels just fell off.

Not a good game.

Malloy
08-25-2013, 06:09 PM
I hate losing preseason games to NO...

gafftop
08-25-2013, 06:10 PM
Hold on to damn ball.

cstyle42
08-25-2013, 06:11 PM
I hate losing preseason games to NO...

All about strategy... New orleans coach will always out scheme kubiak.

gafftop
08-25-2013, 06:12 PM
All about strategy... New orleans coach will always out scheme kubiak.

Yep or make adjustments

Showtime100
08-25-2013, 06:14 PM
It was a joke lol. I knew what you were talking about.

I should have figured it was....lol. Sorry. I was in a hurry to get back to the TV and the computer was taking it's sweet time getting me where I needed to get. (It only does that when I'm in a hurry....:thinking: )

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 06:34 PM
Preseason shenanigans. Every team is doing it. Must be a Goodell idea.

Beginning to get the idea that they're trying to make watching the team on TV a bad experience.

speedfreek
08-25-2013, 06:34 PM
having listened to the game on the radio (not at home) the
thing that is glaring to me is our inability to get off the field
when we play passing teams.

When you get taken apart by McCown and the former
Tulane QB it's an indication that something is amiss..

TJ

AngryNateFTW
08-25-2013, 06:37 PM
Hold on to damn ball.

Case Keenum's drives were derailed by dropped passes.

Did he even throw a bad ball on that drive?

Showtime100
08-25-2013, 06:40 PM
having listened to the game on the radio (not at home) the
thing that is glaring to me is our inability to get off the field
when we play passing teams.

When you get taken apart by McCown and the former
Tulane QB it's an indication that something is amiss..

TJ

I hear ya, but when you see the replay you'll see the guy played pretty well and his receivers were making the most of what McCown gave them to work with.

Could the defense #2's and #3's played better today? Absolutely, but McCown did alright in my book.

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 06:40 PM
Case Keenum's drives were derailed by dropped passes.

Did he even throw a bad ball on that drive?

There was one that looked like a blown route.

speedfreek
08-25-2013, 06:42 PM
Possibly, but I think the defense derailed him.

He got two posessions and the second was with about 4
mins. left. (down by more than a TD)

Our defense couldn't get their backups off the field..

Also, I think Kubiak wanted to end the game without
injury more than win it.

The called QB keeper on 3rd and 6, plus holding on to
timeouts tells me that Kubiak could have cared less about
the final score -- something I cool with in the preseason.

TJ


Case Keenum's drives were derailed by dropped passes.

Did he even throw a bad ball on that drive?

BullNation4Life
08-25-2013, 06:49 PM
Secondary looked like swiss cheese....

Why for the love of blue monkeys is Keo starting?

Offense looked like same ol, same ol....

htowntexans1985
08-25-2013, 06:57 PM
Secondary looked like swiss cheese....

Why for the love of blue monkeys is Keo starting?

Offense looked like same ol, same ol....

Keo has evidence of ol son of bum being a swinger. :user:

amazing80
08-25-2013, 07:06 PM
Keo has evidence of ol son of bum being a swinger. :user:

Because Swearinger isn't ready, his tackling leaves a lot to be desired, he NEVER wraps up.

Pleasant is hurt and Reed still isn't ready, Who else is there to start?

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 07:12 PM
The Keo / Mays play was "entertaining." Keo had a hitch in his walk. A deep thigh bruise doesn't usually feel good after just a week or so. He needs a decent rest.

speedfreek
08-25-2013, 07:13 PM
Man, Keo/Mays takedown play -- just saw it..

HA HA HA HA!

Keystone friggen Cops!

YIKES!

TJ

BullNation4Life
08-25-2013, 07:13 PM
Because Swearinger isn't ready, his tackling leaves a lot to be desired, he NEVER wraps up.

Pleasant is hurt and Reed still isn't ready, Who else is there to start?

Soooo Keo starts due to lack of options? That's just great....

I say start Swearinger now, baptism by fire...Hell start a blind and cripple quadriplegic over Keo...

did I mention I don't like Keo starting?

CloakNNNdagger
08-25-2013, 07:15 PM
KJ got burned a couple of times, and didn't consistently turn around. He had too much land to cover in that the safeties weren't where they were supposed to be. JJo was fried again.

Playoffs
08-25-2013, 07:16 PM
http://prod.images.texans.clubs.nflcdn.com/image-web/NFL/CDA/data/deployed/prod/TEXANS/assets/images/imported/HOU/photos/clubimages/2013/08-August/temp_BB15531--nfl_mezz_1280_1024.JPG
http://prod.images.texans.clubs.nflcdn.com/image-web/NFL/CDA/data/deployed/prod/TEXANS/assets/images/imported/HOU/photos/clubimages/2013/08-August/temp_BB15595--nfl_mezz_1280_1024.JPG
http://prod.images.texans.clubs.nflcdn.com/image-web/NFL/CDA/data/deployed/prod/TEXANS/assets/images/imported/HOU/photos/clubimages/2013/08-August/temp_BB15517--nfl_mezz_1280_1024.JPG

Tania Ganguli ‏@taniaganguli
#Texans NT Earl Mitchell said he just got the wind knocked out of him. No injury.

Lechler said it's been more than a decade since he's been nervous for a preseason game. Today he was for his first game as a #Texans punter

#Texans punter Shane Lechler says K Randy Bullock is more accurate now than his former teammate Sebastian Janikowski was as a rookie.
Houston Texans ‏@HoustonTexans
"I was definitely out there to prove a point tonight. I got my point across." Ben Tate

"We had a big emphasis on getting back to running the ball. We had to step up as a unit, and we did that tonight." - Ben Tate

"I feel like we can go out there with 5 WRs and move the ball up the field. I have total confidence in those young receivers." QB Schaub

"I feel as a unit we're where we want to be heading into Week 1, absolutely." QB Schaub on starters.

"I have a ton of confidence in what he's doing. He's been making plays for me & I'm gonna continue to throw to him." QB Schaub on WR Keshawn Martin

The Houston Texans set several preseason records in defeat on Sunday.

Kubiak says he will most likely start Case Keenum Thursday at Dallas. #Texans

"I think T.J. has answered a challenge in a lot of ways. He's been pushed and it's made him better." -Kubiak on @TJ_Yates

"Not at all. He's had an incredible camp, and we know what we're gonna get from J.J." -Kubiak on any concerns with @JJ Watt

"(DE Jared) Crick went out and played like a starter, and that's very encouraging for our team." -Kubiak

"We have a good group behind Andre, probably the best we've had." -Kubiak on the young receivers.

"I've been really impressed with his play. He's going to be good this year." -Kubiak on RB Ben Tate #Texans

"We're moving the ball well. We got to keep the focus. I feel good about how we're running the ball." -Kubiak
John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL
Only player Texans concerned bout for San Diego opener is Ed Reed.

TE Garrett Graham with hip flexor is only injury Kubiak mentioned. Said he's not worried bout it for opener.

Gary Kubiak happy with running game by starters first time in preseason.

BullNation4Life
08-25-2013, 07:16 PM
Man, Keo/Mays takedown play -- just saw it..

HA HA HA HA!

Keystone friggen Cops!

YIKES!

TJ

Best hit Keo has had as a Texan....

Honoring Earl 34
08-25-2013, 07:16 PM
Secondary looked like swiss cheese....

Why for the love of blue monkeys is Keo starting?

Offense looked like same ol, same ol....

Pass rush will help the secondary if they get a pass rush with an olb .

ATXtexanfan
08-25-2013, 07:17 PM
Two weeks till real football

BullNation4Life
08-25-2013, 07:19 PM
Pass rush will help the secondary if they get a pass rush with an olb .

True but not encouraged when your Pro Bowl CB is getting his ass turned around by a rookie WR....

ATXtexanfan
08-25-2013, 07:21 PM
People freaking over D same as people thinking case is a player. Its preseason

JCTexan
08-25-2013, 07:26 PM
People freaking over D same as people thinking case is a player. Its preseason

I don't know if it's quite the same. The Saints are the type of offense that can destroy this defense. The Patriots and Packers are the other two.

TXAg14
08-25-2013, 07:39 PM
I just can't put much stock in this game.

No Watt, no Antonio Smith, no DeAndre Hopkins, no Foster.

Plus, the line has Ben Jones starting over Wade Smith. Jones is far from a solid lineman.

The things that I took away:
*Bullock may be the real deal for us. Nailed a couple long field goals.
*No turnovers (besides the on downs) is a plus.
*Didn't let Brees scorch them besides Mays terrible tackle.

silvrhand
08-25-2013, 07:53 PM
I just can't put much stock in this game.

No Watt, no Antonio Smith, no DeAndre Hopkins, no Foster.

Plus, the line has Ben Jones starting over Wade Smith. Jones is far from a solid lineman.

The things that I took away:
*Bullock may be the real deal for us. Nailed a couple long field goals.
*No turnovers (besides the on downs) is a plus.
*Didn't let Brees scorch them besides Mays terrible tackle.

Mays missed a BUNCH of tackles in this game he just looked like he was trying too hard, over pursuit then reaching.

badboy
08-25-2013, 07:56 PM
Keep him to develop.....i'd like to see keyshawn martin of lestar jean shipped up outta here....stone hands those 2.Martin maybe but Jean was targeted twice with two catches, 18 avg. That's good for me.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/boxscore?gid=20130825034

Playoffs
08-25-2013, 08:06 PM
Mays missed a BUNCH of tackles in this game he just looked like he was trying too hard, over pursuit then reaching.

Either that or he has a history of missed tackles (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2189109#post2189109).

Rey
08-25-2013, 08:07 PM
I don't what I feel about that game. Bunch of people missing...some good stuff, some bad stuff...

thunderkyss
08-25-2013, 08:09 PM
This is why keshawn martin should return punts.

Secondly, fire Joe Marciano.

I want to see him do it again.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

thunderkyss
08-25-2013, 08:17 PM
I don't what I feel about that game. Bunch of people missing...some good stuff, some bad stuff...

Luke McCown & some rookie WR took our lunch money & we didn't do sht about it... & I mean Kj & Jjo didn't do sht about it.

I know it's preseason. But damn.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 09:26 PM
Case Keenum's drives were derailed by dropped passes.

Did he even throw a bad ball on that drive?

That 4th & goal pass was low and behind #17.

speedfreek
08-25-2013, 09:31 PM
I suspect our coaching staff is putting so much emphasis
on rushing the passer that discipline is being thrown
out of the window by our linebackers.

Those screen passes ate our lunch and they were
easy for the saints QB to hit, because if he held onto
the ball long enough the player responsible for the
back or tight end would break off and head to the
QB like a mind-numbed robot.

No discipline!

TJ

speedfreek
08-25-2013, 09:33 PM
Should not have needed it. #12 had stone hands, and that
called QB keeper on third and 6 was silly.

Both drives that turned over on downs (Yates and Keenum)
in the red zone had some real head scratcher play calls..

TJ

That 4th & goal pass was low and behind #17.

TejasTom
08-25-2013, 09:37 PM
...
in the red zone had some real head scratcher play calls..

TJ

Exactly

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 09:40 PM
People freaking over D same as people thinking case is a player. Its preseason

You practice like you play and play like you practice.
That it's preseason is no excuse for sucky play.
New Orleans didn't play that way. Why should we have?

TXAg14
08-25-2013, 09:40 PM
Should not have needed it. #12 had stone hands, and that
called QB keeper on third and 6 was silly.

Both drives that turned over on downs (Yates and Keenum)
in the red zone had some real head scratcher play calls..

TJ

I'll agree, some strange play calls. I'll chalk some of that up to Kubiak either:

A) not having anything better

or

B) not wanting to bust out the playbook for the backups in preseason.

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 09:49 PM
Should not have needed it. #12 had stone hands, and that
called QB keeper on third and 6 was silly.

Both drives that turned over on downs (Yates and Keenum)
in the red zone had some real head scratcher play calls..

TJ

My thinking is that Kubiak gave both youngsters a chance to come thru and make a play - make something happen - in a 4th down situation. You never know when a game will turn on a situation like that so best to practice it against a pretty fair defense.
Neither youngster came through.

badboy
08-25-2013, 09:52 PM
You practice like you play and play like you practice.
That it's preseason is no excuse for sucky play.
New Orleans didn't play that way. Why should we have?Wood and Johnson seem to say that is not true. :kitten: