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Playoffs
08-13-2013, 10:51 AM
For those who don't venture into the Training Camp thread (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2192179#post2192179)...

Stephanie Stradley ‏@StephStradley
Wade Smith LG for #Texans got a knee scope per Kubiak.
Deepi Sidhu ‏@DeepSlant
Kubiak: As for Wade Smith, will know in 3-4 days where he is at. Had scope on knee this a.m.
John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL
...Ben Jones is now starter.

eriadoc
08-13-2013, 11:37 AM
I'm shocked.

:yawn:

badboy
08-13-2013, 11:56 AM
Wish we could have some consistency on oline but it does allow others to get work. Hope to see Q get some additional work on left.

Texn4life
08-13-2013, 11:59 AM
We've been pretty healthy at O-Line for a couple of years now compared to most teams. I'm just glad it happened at this point in the season. Get it cleaned up and get ready to roll a month or so from now.

CloakNNNdagger
08-13-2013, 07:29 PM
I'm shocked.

:yawn:

We were already specifically told that Wade had a "knee bone bruise," which in of itself is bad enough. Now he has undergone a scope, for whatever reason, which signifies that there was definitely additional damage present. The fact that bone bruises are commonly associated with damage to other adjacent knee structures is why I posted what I did on his injury originally.........none of these associated injuries plays well to a more favorable prognosis or quicker recovery.

Today, Dougherty reports that the Texans described Smith as having a "deep bone bruise."

The deeper the bone bruise signifies greater damage to the involved bone and greater likelihood of significant associated injuries.


[Original post over 1 week ago]

This is what I was concerned about with Brooks direct knee impact injury. A patella (knee cap) bone bruise can becoming a nagging injury leaving the player unable to participate due to lack of range of motion and often very intense pain. Furthermore, it is not unusual to be associated with damage to the adjacent bursae, fat, patellar ligament or the posterior cartilage surface of the patella. An accompanying small chip fracture or stress fracture of the patella is also not uncommon. Especially, even if a tiny stress fracture is present, if not addressed with an 8-10 week healing rehab period, there is long term concern that another blow to the knee could break the knee cap in two because of the quadriceps muscle pulling from above while the patella tendon pulling from below during flexion of the knee. This would require major surgery with at least a 3-4 month period prior to returning to play.

http://members.upnaway.com/~poliowa/anatomy%20of%20knee.GIF

An MRI will have been already performed to diagnose the bone bruise. The Texans would know at this point if and how much collateral damage may exist. Patella bone bruises alone are bad enough in that depending on how severe, it could take months (up to a year in some cases) to completely heal, barring further trauma to the area. Rest and rehab of several weeks would not be out of order for even a modest bone bruise. However, as it stands now, if that is the case, I would guess that the Texans would push Wade to the limits of his pain threshold in order to get him back on the field as soon as possible. In doing so, it would not be surprising to see a significant performance drop off and/or setback.

In that the reports only say bone bruise of the "knee," this could also apply to bone bruise to the lower femur bone or upper tibia bone which are considered part of the knee. When bone bruises occur in load-bearing bones such as the tibia and femur, avoidance of weight-bearing for significant periods (depending on severity of the bruise) is extremely important to reduce the extension of the damage and significant prolongation of recovery.

badboy
08-13-2013, 09:15 PM
Wade Smith ✔ @Smitty74allday

My surgery went well. I appreciate everyone's calls, texts, thoughts, prayers, & well wishes 4 a speedy recovery. Be back before you know it
12:15 PM - 13 Aug 2013

From Battle Red Blog

BullBlitz
08-13-2013, 09:23 PM
We've dodged injuries so far, but it was inevitable that we would eventually have to deal with a few. This sounds worse than they initially led us to believe.

DocBar
08-13-2013, 09:33 PM
As bad as it may sound, I'd rather see Wade down than many other players. The Texans can survive this and still be dominant.

dalemurphy
08-13-2013, 09:46 PM
We were already specifically told that Wade had a "knee bone bruise," which in of itself is bad enough. Now he has undergone a scope, for whatever reason, which signifies that there was definitely additional damage present. The fact that bone bruises are commonly associated with damage to other adjacent knee structures is why I posted what I did on his injury originally.........none of these associated injuries plays well to a more favorable prognosis or quicker recovery.

Today, Dougherty reports that the Texans described Smith as having a "deep bone bruise."

The deeper the bone bruise signifies greater damage to the involved bone and greater likelihood of significant associated injuries.


[Original post over 1 week ago]

CnD,

I read the events and reports that they likely went into the knee to clean up torn cartilage and discovery to see what they fear: significant cartilage loss leading to something close to bone on bone, requiring the dreaded microfacture surgery... or constant pain and further deterioration... or retirement.

Correct me where I may be misguided.

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 09:49 PM
As bad as it may sound, I'd rather see Wade down than many other players. The Texans can survive this and still be dominant.

I wanted to replace him anyway. Feel bad for him, I really do, but it is what it is.

I'd like to see Brooks next to the big guy... er, bigger guy & Ben Jones in Brisiel's spot.


But, I am intrigued by putting the Q next to Duane. More than likely it's going to be a rotation there with Ben & Quessenberry(sp).

eriadoc
08-13-2013, 10:07 PM
We were already specifically told that Wade had a "knee bone bruise," which in of itself is bad enough.

I've just adopted a rule of thumb when considering what the Texans medical staff reports. I just multiply the severity by 10. They're kind of like the Black Knight reporting a flesh wound.

badboy
08-13-2013, 10:09 PM
I have been pushing Q for OG and here is a link you might like to read:

http://www.battleredblog.com/2013/5/9/4312324/houston-texans-rookie-ot-david-quessenberry-scouting-report

Quessenberry has long arms, left tackle length arms, and knows how to use them. You'll also notice, if you've an eye for it, a wider-than-normal stance, which helps him establish a stable, strong base to help with his leverage. Powerful Brandon Williams? Down. Athletic freak Margus Hunt? Blocked. Violent, physical Datone Jones? Shut down. Watch the practices for that blue helmet on the line and you see him keep at it.

2014 is where Quessenberry should begin to make his impact. If Houston feels he's progressing nicely, I can see them letting 32-year-old Pro Bowl guard Wade Smith's contract expire and penciling in Quessenberry as a starting guard with, presumably, Brandon Brooks. That's what the Texans do on the line: they keep young talent at the ready and move them up the chain. A potential multi-year starter from a sixth round pick? Tremendous value pick that could be the steal of the NFL Draft. Even if Quessenberry remains the top swing reserve lineman, that's still good value.

Playoffs
08-13-2013, 10:13 PM
How long after the scope before he can practice again, Doc?

eriadoc
08-13-2013, 10:13 PM
I have been pushing Q for OG ...

Strictly based off draft reports, training camp reports, and one preseason game, I like the guy a lot. I think he can be the second best lineman at some point down the road.

CloakNNNdagger
08-13-2013, 10:34 PM
CnD,

I read the events and reports that they likely went into the knee to clean up torn cartilage and discovery to see what they fear: significant cartilage loss leading to something close to bone on bone, requiring the dreaded microfacture surgery... or constant pain and further deterioration... or retirement.

Correct me where I may be misguided.

With a DEEP bone bruise, cartilage destruction is common, as are other tissue injuries. Virtually by definition, these players are destined to severe arthritis. But if the bones of the knee joint are involved as the bones of "deep bruise," acute damage to the cartilage may require removal of large fragments of cartilage, essentially denuding significant surface areas of apposing bones, in this case distal end of the femur to the proximal end of the tibia.............known as bone on bone. Separated cartilage fragments like these do not heal if attempts are made to "transplant" or "re-graft" them. So they are "cleaned up," i.e., removed. And, as much as has been made of micro-fracture surgery, it seldom solves any problems unless the denuded area is extremely small.........and then only temporarily. If he undergoes micro-fracture surgery for a limited area and it is considered successful, your would still not expect return to play for at least 6 months..........if ever.

I hope this answers your question.

CloakNNNdagger
08-13-2013, 10:51 PM
How long after the scope before he can practice again, Doc?

It all depends on what the extent of damage and type of damage he has sustained....and what procedure(s) they truthfully performed during the scope.

Brisco_County
08-13-2013, 11:08 PM
When will we get to the point where we can just 3D print some cartilage and shove it in there?

steelbtexan
08-13-2013, 11:09 PM
It all depends on what the extent of damage and type of damage he has sustained....and what procedure(s) they truthfully performed during the scope.

Scary stuff

The word truthfully should never be used in the same sentence with the Texans medical staff.

badboy
08-13-2013, 11:17 PM
Strictly based off draft reports, training camp reports, and one preseason game, I like the guy a lot. I think he can be the second best lineman at some point down the road.I am hoping for 2014
Brown, Q , Ben Jones, Brooks and Newton backed by Williams will be the future. of course there will always be others either low draft picks or FA like Harris to fill in as back ups.

CloakNNNdagger
08-14-2013, 06:23 AM
When will we get to the point where we can just 3D print some cartilage and shove it in there?

Computer manufactured 3D implants exist for many bony parts of of the body (I've used them for facial/skull and chest reconstruction). However, pieces of isolated joint cartilage are not replaceable.......when it gets to that point, both apposing surfaces must be replaced in substitution of bone and cartilage in the form of joint replacement.

CloakNNNdagger
08-14-2013, 06:41 AM
As the Texans are being nonspecific as to damage to "what" cartilage, one of the "better" scenarios (and it's still no bargain), is the cartilage involving the back side of the patella (knee cap).....patellar chondromalacia......where it is essentially crushed many times with damage to the apposing cartilage of the femur surface of the knee joint behind it. The deeper the bone bruise, the greater the probable cartilage damage to both surfaces. The more subsequent movement allowed, the greater damage is created by the two surfaces "grinding."

http://www.mdguidelines.com/images/Illustrations/patel_ch.jpg

http://morphopedics.wdfiles.com/local--files/patello-femoral-pain-syndrome/pic1.jpg

http://www.doereport.com/imagescooked/1836W.jpg

Adequate rest is again absolutely necessary after such a "clean up." Then intensive rehab. Depending on the extent of damage, I would still be surprised if return should take any less than a couple of months.....and with greater damage greater potentially many more. Unfortunately, that type of surgery does not correct the problem (cartilage is gone).........and the player may very likely still show progression to more severe problems with quickly decreasing levels of performance. Bone on bone and severe arthritis is commonly the final end results, with some players never coming back.

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 09:04 AM
That's what the Texans do on the line: they keep young talent at the ready and move them up the chain. A potential multi-year starter from a sixth round pick? Tremendous value pick that could be the steal of the NFL Draft. Even if Quessenberry remains the top swing reserve lineman, that's still good value.

Hopefully that's what the Texans do on the line.

That's what they did in Denver. I know people talk about their RBs from that Shanahan/Kubiak era, but they had an OL factory going on down there. At least while Kubiak was there. They had the occasional first rounder playing on the line, but usually it was a 5th, 6th, or even UDFA starting on their line. Then they'd move one guy in after another & not miss a beat.

Surely our "factory" hasn't reached that level of production yet, as there are drops in production when we replace guys & it appears we use a rotation to get them up to speed.

But soon, I'm hoping we'll fill the pipeline & we can count on excellent OL play year after year, injury or no.

eriadoc
08-14-2013, 10:49 AM
As the Texans are being nonspecific as to damage to "what" cartilage, one of the "better" scenarios (and it's still no bargain), is the cartilage involving the back side of the patella (knee cap).....patellar chondromalacia......where it is essentially crushed many times with damage to the apposing cartilage of the femur surface of the knee joint behind it.

Ever so often, some of your freely given information is directly applicable to me. I know I've thanked you before, but allow me once again. Your knowledge and ability to share that knowledge is a huge contribution to this community. Thank you. Rep when I can.

dalemurphy
08-14-2013, 03:56 PM
As the Texans are being nonspecific as to damage to "what" cartilage, one of the "better" scenarios (and it's still no bargain), is the cartilage involving the back side of the patella (knee cap).....patellar chondromalacia......where it is essentially crushed many times with damage to the apposing cartilage of the femur surface of the knee joint behind it. The deeper the bone bruise, the greater the probable cartilage damage to both surfaces. The more subsequent movement allowed, the greater damage is created by the two surfaces "grinding."

http://www.mdguidelines.com/images/Illustrations/patel_ch.jpg

http://morphopedics.wdfiles.com/local--files/patello-femoral-pain-syndrome/pic1.jpg

http://www.doereport.com/imagescooked/1836W.jpg

Adequate rest is again absolutely necessary after such a "clean up." Then intensive rehab. Depending on the extent of damage, I would still be surprised if return should take any less than a couple of months.....and with greater damage greater potentially many more. Unfortunately, that type of surgery does not correct the problem (cartilage is gone).........and the player may very likely still show progression to more severe problems with quickly decreasing levels of performance. Bone on bone and severe arthritis is commonly the final end results, with some players never coming back.

CND,

Do you think it would be prudent for football players to get regular Synvisk (the lubricant made from rooster comb proteins)injections as simple prevention/maintenance? I wonder if any teams are doing that kind of thing now. From what I understand, there is no harm and likely some additional protection for the cartilage. I'd like to know your thoughts.

I'm thinking this should be considered for healthy knees, not just chronic ones...

CloakNNNdagger
08-14-2013, 08:14 PM
CND,

Do you think it would be prudent for football players to get regular Synvisk (the lubricant made from rooster comb proteins)injections as simple prevention/maintenance? I wonder if any teams are doing that kind of thing now. From what I understand, there is no harm and likely some additional protection for the cartilage. I'd like to know your thoughts.

I'm thinking this should be considered for healthy knees, not just chronic ones...

Synvisc has been around since the mid 90s. Studies have revealed very mixed results. Several have shown absolutely no differences from placebo saline injections (which resorb quickly). The ones that tended to show some pain relief were relatively small studies in numbers, short spans of follow-up (6 months or less) and representing more of the regular Joe population with very lightly sprinkled elite athlete representation. The idea is that it acts as a lubricant and shock absorber. Neither effect has been truly proven to be significant. Some patients, after the usual 5 injection series exhibit 6 month pain decrease (usually not relief) anecdotally. But regular Joe is not looking to crunch against 300 pound players that are trying to kill them.....they are mostly looking for some improvement in simply getting around.......i.e., walking.............trying to temporize total knee replacement for a couple of years. You could just as well be pouring motor oil into the joint.


http://www.mikereinold.com/wp-content/uploads/viscosupplementation.jpg

As far as injecting the knee "prophylactically," if teams are doing this, it is far from benign. Each time you poke a perfectly normal knee, you run the risk of infection. Even one infection of the knee during a multiple injection series can cause wide devastating scarification and destruction of the knee joint structures. BTW, depending on which studies you read, the rate of infection following each Synvisc injection is anywhere from ~5% to 10%......certainly no small number........especially for knee that started out normal.

CloakNNNdagger
08-15-2013, 06:00 PM
It appears that Smith had another knee scope around the beginning of this past February that wasn't revealed. We don't know if if it was on the same knee or the other knee. If it were the same knee especially, the bone bruise episode certainly didn't make it better.

PapaL
08-15-2013, 06:27 PM
So it would seem he is return is TBD with no foreseeable return in the immediate future?

drs23
08-15-2013, 06:49 PM
So it would seem he is return is TBD with no foreseeable return in the immediate future?

Que Q & Ben Jones. Could be an upgrade. Wade was a little shaky last season.

PapaL
08-15-2013, 07:03 PM
Que Q & Ben Jones. Could be an upgrade. Wade was a little shaky last season.

Just like I said in the QB2 v PSQB thread; let the best man win. :tipshat:

76Texan
08-15-2013, 07:06 PM
It appears that Smith had another knee scope around the beginning of this past February that wasn't revealed. We don't know if if it was on the same knee or the other knee. If it were the same knee especially, the bone bruise episode certainly didn't make it better.

I know they've been doing work on his knees from time to time last year; I just don't what it was they were doing.

Do you any info on those occasions?

My gut feeling in the off-season was that he's not going to make it through another year healthy or in decent playing shape with those knees.

CloakNNNdagger
08-15-2013, 08:19 PM
I know they've been doing work on his knees from time to time last year; I just don't what it was they were doing.

Do you any info on those occasions?

My gut feeling in the off-season was that he's not going to make it through another year healthy or in decent playing shape with those knees.

Beginning with the Jets game (week 5) last year, Smith essentially made the Injury Report every week for a "knee." This is an independent reason I have for being concerned with the history of "deep bone bruise" AND a recent history of 2 scopes. The combination of history of last year, with these 3 recent "events," makes his future look that much more questionable......not optimistic.



Let's look back to just a short while ago:

Posted: 6:05 p.m. Monday, Aug. 12, 2013
BREAKING NEWS: With Questions Surrounding Wade Smith's Knee, Texans Make Trade With Eagles

Earlier today, Gary Kubiak revealed that Pro Bowl left guard Wade Smith, thought to have suffered a relatively minor knee injury, is getting a second opinion after the knee failed to respond to treatment as well as the team hoped:

"Obviously, he banged knees, had his knee swell up on him, had a big bone bruise," head coach Gary Kubiak said Monday morning. "Hasn’t responded the last few days the way we wanted it. We’re re-evaluating him, having some other people look at it today."


"We were expecting him back in a few days, but it just didn’t happen," Kubiak said. I’m okay until I hear what’s next, but obviously there’s another step for us to take. Got to find out what’s going on here."link (http://www.ajc.com/feed/sports/football/breaking-news-with-questions-surrounding-wade/fT36Q/)

DocBar
08-15-2013, 11:17 PM
Beginning with the Jets game (week 5) last year, Smith essentially made the Injury Report every week for a "knee." This is an independent reason I have for being concerned with the history of "deep bone bruise" AND a recent history of 2 scopes. The combination of history of last year, with these 3 recent "events," makes his future look that much more questionable......not optimistic.



Let's look back to just a short while ago:

link (http://www.ajc.com/feed/sports/football/breaking-news-with-questions-surrounding-wade/fT36Q/)How does this bode for Foster? We're all used to sketchy reports from the team, but they've been less forthcoming with Foster, who is immeasurably more vital to the team than Wade Smith.

76Texan
08-15-2013, 11:30 PM
Oh well, we'll just have $3M in salary cap open up if Smith is cut then.
That's not all bad, given that his play has gone down last year due to the problems with the knees.
Having him play hurt again isn't going to help anybody.

CloakNNNdagger
08-16-2013, 06:01 AM
How does this bode for Foster? We're all used to sketchy reports from the team, but they've been less forthcoming with Foster, who is immeasurably more vital to the team than Wade Smith.

The Texans are insistent that Foster's calf is completely well and no problem. And his back has just for some reason "tightened up on him." It would be remiss to discount that the likely reason for a tight back would be as a back strain compensatory to his calf injury.......something that would be changed by his postural dynamics (core instability) either secondary to adjusting to some residual soreness of his calf, and/or fear of re-injury. Remember, calf strain/tear is associated with a high incidence of later strain of the same calf (re-injury to the same calf can lead to long-term chronic calf problems) or contralateral calf, a combined risk reported as high as 50% .

MidtownMikey
08-16-2013, 07:59 AM
Oh well, we'll just have $3M in salary cap open up if Smith is cut then.
That's not all bad, given that his play has gone down last year due to the problems with the knees.
Having him play hurt again isn't going to help anybody.

76, that all depends on how his contract was structured if cutting him would free up $3 million, a portion of that, or if an injury cut would turn it all into dead money anyways.

I actually was trying to see if there were any mentions of being "guaranteed for injury" but could never find the info. With him not being a star by any means and not even a for sure starter when he was signed 4 years ago, the Texans could have avoided guarantees of any type on the final year.

Still, it is pretty common for bigger name vets to get at least a partial guarantee placed against injury until there are pre-existing injuries the teams wants to protect against (in the case of Manning's contract with the Broncos). So if Wade Smith has a great agent, he could have gotten something put in. Also not sure what the union does in these cases. Most cuts for injury I've seen in the past without any major payout were of rookies drafted in the 2nd or later rounds.

76Texan
08-16-2013, 09:15 AM
76, that all depends on how his contract was structured if cutting him would free up $3 million, a portion of that, or if an injury cut would turn it all into dead money anyways.

I actually was trying to see if there were any mentions of being "guaranteed for injury" but could never find the info. With him not being a star by any means and not even a for sure starter when he was signed 4 years ago, the Texans could have avoided guarantees of any type on the final year.

Still, it is pretty common for bigger name vets to get at least a partial guarantee placed against injury until there are pre-existing injuries the teams wants to protect against (in the case of Manning's contract with the Broncos). So if Wade Smith has a great agent, he could have gotten something put in. Also not sure what the union does in these cases. Most cuts for injury I've seen in the past without any major payout were of rookies drafted in the 2nd or later rounds.

I reckon you're partially right.
I've been reading up on it.
It's still clear as mud, but it looks like the team and the player just reach an injury settlement, which should be the amount that counts toward the salary cap.

Playoffs
08-16-2013, 09:36 AM
So we're possibly looking at Wade Smith's career being done, with his history of knee issues?

The Pencil Neck
08-16-2013, 10:45 AM
So we're possibly looking at Wade Smith's career being done, with his history of knee issues?

That's got to be considered a possibility. I'm hoping we've already got a couple of upgrades at that position, though.

badboy
08-16-2013, 02:03 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/db2S2?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=houston-texans

Left Guard

CloakNNNdagger
08-16-2013, 02:39 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/db2S2?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=houston-texans

Left Guard

Looks like we got the answer.........the arthroscope was on the same knee as the "bone bruise." Goes along with what I have posted about commonly associated injuries to adjacent structures, especially with "deep" bone bruises which occur with more severe impact to the bone.

Smith had a bone bruise on his knee that eventually required an arthroscopic surgery this week. While hes out, Ben Jones will start the preseason game on Saturday but rookie sixth-round pick David Quessenberry is battling for time too.

It would now be interesting to know if this knee was the same one he had scoped back in the beginning of February.

badboy
08-16-2013, 02:46 PM
Looks like we got the answer.........the arthroscope was on the same knee as the "bone bruise." Goes along with what I have posted about commonly associated injuries to adjacent structures, especially with "deep" bone bruises which occur with more severe impact to the bone.



It would now be interesting to know if this knee was the same one he had scoped back in the beginning of February.For some reason I am thinking it was the other leg. This is one reason I have been working to replace Wade on my roster. I like Ben Jones but Q just seems better suited to LG after watch him at LT last year. I think many are going to look back on this season and realize what we saw with our Oline of the future.

CloakNNNdagger
08-16-2013, 03:33 PM
For some reason I am thinking it was the other leg. This is one reason I have been working to replace Wade on my roster. I like Ben Jones but Q just seems better suited to LG after watch him at LT last year. I think many are going to look back on this season and realize what we saw with our Oline of the future.

???? I'm not really sure if I know what you mean.

thunderkyss
08-16-2013, 07:39 PM
I've been touting Ben Jones @ RG & Brooks at LG.... makes more sense to me, than Ben Jones at LG.

I've been wanting to replace Wade Smith since before he was a pro bowler.


But... I do like Brooks @ RG & Q at LG

Lucky
08-16-2013, 08:20 PM
I've been touting Ben Jones @ RG & Brooks at LG.... makes more sense to me, than Ben Jones at LG.
Could you explain why?

thunderkyss
08-16-2013, 09:08 PM
Could you explain why?

I've thought Wade Smith's play has been below par for some time now. I also liked what I saw from Ben Jones last year. I know he doesn't have the power & strength of Brooks, but I think he's more athletic & better at getting to the second level. He reminds me of Myers.

Brooks is a big strong guy. He's not built like Wade, but he plays the same. Put that hulk next to Brown & just mow'em down. Then pull Ben Jones around and surprise that LB or Safety coming around the edge.

I thought all along the plan was to move Brooks to RG when the season starts & let Ben Jones get a couple of reps at Center through camp. But when Wade got hurt & they left Brooks @ RG I figured that's where they want him.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Lucky
08-16-2013, 10:00 PM
Brooks is a big strong guy. He's not built like Wade, but he plays the same. Put that hulk next to Brown & just mow'em down. Then pull Ben Jones around and surprise that LB or Safety coming around the edge.
OK, so you believe the Texans have more of a left sided running attack, and Brooks would be better at the point of attack and Jones better at cutting off the back side.

I see your point.

76Texan
08-17-2013, 06:01 AM
The thing is that the Texans change things up all the time.
One year, they would favor running to the left side more; another year, they would run right more.
One year, they ran more inside zone; another year, outside zone.
One year, they ran pure ZB; another, they added the gap-scheme runs and counters, and pulling linemen.

So if they decide to put a guy at certain position for now, I imagine they have an idea what they want to do this year.

thunderkyss
08-17-2013, 06:27 AM
So if they decide to put a guy at certain position for now, I imagine they have an idea what they want to do this year.

I'm sure they do. I'm just trying to figure out where there thinking is. Our best OL was with Winston, Brisiel, & a pretty good Wade Smith. Jones looks like a better Brisiel & Brooks a younger Wade.

Problem, in my mind now, is Newton is nothing like Winston in the run game.

Right now it looks to me that Kubiak & Dennison doesn't have any rathers & build there line & attack according to there strengths.

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Lucky
08-17-2013, 06:42 AM
I'm sure they do. I'm just trying to figure out where there thinking is. Our best OL was with Winston, Brisiel, & a pretty good Wade Smith. Jones looks like a better Brisiel & Brooks a younger Wade.

Problem, in my mind now, is Newton is nothing like Winston in the run game.

Jones has not reached the level of competence that Brisiel had. I agree with you on Newton. Brooks is TBD.

thunderkyss
08-17-2013, 07:15 AM
Jones has not reached the level of competence that Brisiel had. I agree with you on Newton. Brooks is TBD.

TBD for sure on both Brooks & Jones.

I'm thinking in time, Jones will surpass Brisiel & Brooks will be as good as Wade in Wade's best season here. I think Wade was a monster his first season here.

IDEXAN
08-17-2013, 07:50 AM
I'm sure they do. I'm just trying to figure out where there thinking is. Our best OL was with Winston, Brisiel, & a pretty good Wade Smith. Jones looks like a better Brisiel & Brooks a younger Wade.

Problem, in my mind now, is Newton is nothing like Winston in the run game.

Right now it looks to me that Kubiak & Dennison doesn't have any rathers & build there line & attack according to there strengths.

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Because he's more athletic than Brooks and therefor better suited to get into the second-level, I see Quess as the Texans LG and Brooks on the right side because the Texans are basically a right-handed team (Schaub is right-handed, runs his boots to the right). Brooks strength is, well strength, and that's why they would want him blocking on the play-side as much as possible. Also it's not just LT Duane Brown, but the LG who's got Schaub's 'blind-side", and Quess was a multi-year LT in college and therefor probably a better, more experienced pass-blocker than Brooks.

thunderkyss
08-17-2013, 09:29 AM
Brooks strength is, well strength, and that's why they would want him blocking on the play-side as much as possible.

I can see that... replacing Winston as the road grader on the right.

76Texan
08-17-2013, 10:05 AM
I can see that... replacing Winston as the road grader on the right.

The thing is, according to Football Outsiders, the Texans ran 34% to the left and 26% to the right last year.

I looked at their charts in random years, and there's no telling the tendency of all the teams.
Teams don't run to the right as one may think the general rule is.
The numbers are all over the place.

IDEXAN
08-17-2013, 10:32 AM
The thing is, according to Football Outsiders, the Texans ran 34% to the left and 26% to the right last year.

I looked at their charts in random years, and there's no telling the tendency of all the teams.
Teams don't run to the right as one may think the general rule is.
The numbers are all over the place.
But since most teams are "right-handed", don't they have a "bias" to put a bigger, stronger guard (and also tackle for that matter) on the right side, and a quicker, more athletic guard on the left-side ?

CloakNNNdagger
08-17-2013, 10:41 AM
But since most teams are "right-handed", don't they have a "bias" to put a bigger, stronger guard (and also tackle for that matter) on the right side, and a quicker, more athletic guard on the left-side ?

Yeh, it's more about the "blind side" than the run game.

76Texan
08-17-2013, 11:28 AM
But since most teams are "right-handed", don't they have a "bias" to put a bigger, stronger guard (and also tackle for that matter) on the right side, and a quicker, more athletic guard on the left-side ?

I don't know; it will be interesting to look up.
On the other hand, I've had read at least one account of a previous NFL Guard who said that the blind-side OG sees more help from the Center (this part is going to be impossible to quantified.)

IDEXAN
08-17-2013, 11:33 AM
Yeh, it's more about the "blind side" than the run game.
Yes, that certainly does apply for the left-tackle.

76Texan
08-17-2013, 11:47 AM
But since most teams are "right-handed", don't they have a "bias" to put a bigger, stronger guard (and also tackle for that matter) on the right side, and a quicker, more athletic guard on the left-side ?

Yeh, it's more about the "blind side" than the run game.

I don't know; it will be interesting to look up.
On the other hand, I've had read at least one account of a previous NFL Guard who said that the blind-side OG sees more help from the Center (this part is going to be impossible to quantified.)

Here's one of the pieces that I read:

"Ross Tucker knows more about offensive line play than me, you and 10 other fans put together. He played every position along the line during a seven-year NFL career that included 23 starts. So when he writes about offensive line play, it's worth paying attention. Add in the fact that he doesn't regurgitate conventional wisdom and his new stuff at SI.com becomes a must read.

To Tucker, all these megadeals that left guards have been getting, including Alan Faneca's recent $40 million deals make no sense, because as he sees it, left guard is the second easiest position on the line to play. He ranks left tackle as the toughest, followed by right tackle. But he sees right guard as the position that is underappreciated. The reason is that he believes most team's better interior pass rusher is lined up against the right guard. And on most teams, the left guard gets help from the center as they slide the protection to the left, while the right guard is left on an island in pass blocking..."

http://www.aolnews.com/2008/04/05/are-left-guards-overrated/

IDEXAN
08-17-2013, 12:41 PM
Thanks for the link 76Texan. It was especially interesting to hear the author's thoughts about the center position being the easiest OLine position to master, with all of that talk we hear about how smart the guy who plays center is supposed to be. But then what is so hard about identifying where the MLB is in the defense and screaming out, "MIK is 56".
Here's a question though, why did the Cardinals put one of the mostly highly drafted offensive guards ever (Jonathon Cooper, # 7 overall in April), on the left instead of the right side of the center in their offensive line ?

CloakNNNdagger
08-17-2013, 12:57 PM
Here's one of the pieces that I read:

"Ross Tucker knows more about offensive line play than me, you and 10 other fans put together. He played every position along the line during a seven-year NFL career that included 23 starts. So when he writes about offensive line play, it's worth paying attention. Add in the fact that he doesn't regurgitate conventional wisdom and his new stuff at SI.com becomes a must read.

To Tucker, all these megadeals that left guards have been getting, including Alan Faneca's recent $40 million deals make no sense, because as he sees it, left guard is the second easiest position on the line to play. He ranks left tackle as the toughest, followed by right tackle. But he sees right guard as the position that is underappreciated. The reason is that he believes most team's better interior pass rusher is lined up against the right guard. And on most teams, the left guard gets help from the center as they slide the protection to the left, while the right guard is left on an island in pass blocking..."

http://www.aolnews.com/2008/04/05/are-left-guards-overrated/

Thanks for posting. After reading it, I am left wondering if this observation is not more sensitive to a team's offensive scheme rather than to the defenses it faces.

paycheck71
08-17-2013, 01:02 PM
For some reason I am thinking it was the other leg. This is one reason I have been working to replace Wade on my roster. I like Ben Jones but Q just seems better suited to LG after watch him at LT last year. I think many are going to look back on this season and realize what we saw with our Oline of the future.

Gary? Rick? :shades:

thunderkyss
08-17-2013, 02:03 PM
Here's one of the pieces that I read:

"Ross Tucker knows more about offensive line play than me, you and 10 other fans put together. He played every position along the line during a seven-year NFL career that included 23 starts. So when he writes about offensive line play, it's worth paying attention. Add in the fact that he doesn't regurgitate conventional wisdom and his new stuff at SI.com becomes a must read.

To Tucker, all these megadeals that left guards have been getting, including Alan Faneca's recent $40 million deals make no sense, because as he sees it, left guard is the second easiest position on the line to play. He ranks left tackle as the toughest, followed by right tackle. But he sees right guard as the position that is underappreciated. The reason is that he believes most team's better interior pass rusher is lined up against the right guard. And on most teams, the left guard gets help from the center as they slide the protection to the left, while the right guard is left on an island in pass blocking..."

http://www.aolnews.com/2008/04/05/are-left-guards-overrated/

He played all 5 positions on the OL in a 7 year career, with 23 starts.

:thinking:

He may not be the "expert" we think him to be. Athletically talented.... mos def... but obviously something didn't translate to game day.

& by no means am I an expert, but I tend to remember Warren Sapp & Simeon Rice lined up predominantly over the LG.

76Texan
08-17-2013, 03:26 PM
He played all 5 positions on the OL in a 7 year career, with 23 starts.

:thinking:

He may not be the "expert" we think him to be. Athletically talented.... mos def... but obviously something didn't translate to game day.

& by no means am I an expert, but I tend to remember Warren Sapp & Simeon Rice lined up predominantly over the LG.

And I'm pretty sure I've seen Watt the most over the RG or RT.
I haven't paid attention to Sapp or Rice, but I do recall watching Wade's guys when I tried to learn about Wade's defense over the years, that Bruce Smith lined up all over the place (like Watt did), but I'm pretty sure he made an awful lot of plays over the RG and RT.
I'll see if I can confirm that when I have some time to rewatch the games.

If my memory is faulty, I promise I'll let you know.

Playoffs
08-17-2013, 03:54 PM
Lance Zierlein ‏@LanceZierlein
John Harris & I will be hosting a live, streaming Google Hangout before Texans game & a halftime hangout at http://TheSidelineView.com

paycheck71
08-17-2013, 06:39 PM
So, what am I missing? I don't see the link to the hangout from the website, and I don't see one published on TheSidelineView Google+ page... Is it not on yet?

Playoffs
08-17-2013, 06:51 PM
So, what am I missing? I don't see the link to the hangout from the website, and I don't see one published on TheSidelineView Google+ page... Is it not on yet?

Now it looks like a "full game chat" ... http://www.thesidelineview.com/columns/nfl/live-texans-vs-dolphins-preseason-hangout-full-game-chat

Who knows if it'll work or not.

badboy
08-18-2013, 08:59 AM
Gary? Rick? :shades:

lol most regulars know that several of us pretend we are GMs and maintain rosters, review college tapes and games and do mock drafts. If you are interested, visit the NFL mock draft forum where we exchange info, ideas and debate players. It gets heated up in a few more weeks when college teams are rocking.

badboy
08-18-2013, 09:01 AM
???? I'm not really sure if I know what you mean.For a year, I have been discussing replacing Wade Smith after 2013 season due to his age and salary. His health now adds to my position. If Crick can start in 2014, Wade should be gone.

badboy
08-18-2013, 09:05 AM
Because he's more athletic than Brooks and therefor better suited to get into the second-level, I see Quess as the Texans LG and Brooks on the right side because the Texans are basically a right-handed team (Schaub is right-handed, runs his boots to the right). Brooks strength is, well strength, and that's why they would want him blocking on the play-side as much as possible. Also it's not just LT Duane Brown, but the LG who's got Schaub's 'blind-side", and Quess was a multi-year LT in college and therefor probably a better, more experienced pass-blocker than Brooks.This has been my position since the draft. I'd like to see Q back up Brown and Smith this season and start LG 2014. :clap:

76Texan
08-18-2013, 09:25 AM
This has been my position since the draft. I'd like to see Q back up Brown and Smith this season and start LG 2014. :clap:

Maybe we'll see a rotation of Quiz and Jones at LG and a rotation of Newton and Harris at RT this year? At least until somebody steps into their role full-time?

thunderkyss
08-18-2013, 09:36 AM
For a year, I have been discussing replacing Wade Smith after 2013 season due to his age and salary. His health now adds to my position. If Crick can start in 2014, Wade should be gone.

Is Crick going to switch to offense?


Or does Crick starting mean we don't need Wade Phillips anymore?

You know I'm on your side, I just need to know which of my goofy arguments I need to brush up on.

CloakNNNdagger
08-18-2013, 09:53 AM
For a year, I have been discussing replacing Wade Smith after 2013 season due to his age and salary. His health now adds to my position. If Crick can start in 2014, Wade should be gone.

I thought that was what you meant.

CloakNNNdagger
08-18-2013, 09:56 AM
Is Crick going to switch to offense?


Or does Crick starting mean we don't need Wade Phillips anymore?

You know I'm on your side, I just need to know which of my goofy arguments I need to brush up on.

Probably meant Jones........I think.

infantrycak
08-18-2013, 09:58 AM
Q looked much better than Jones. I don't want to see a rotation there. If Smith can't go, throw Q in.

CloakNNNdagger
08-18-2013, 10:33 AM
Q looked much better than Jones. I don't want to see a rotation there. If Smith can't go, throw Q in.

Amen.

Lucky
08-18-2013, 10:40 AM
Should the Texans be on the lookout for a vet guard who might be on the trading block? Do they have enough cap space to even pickup a vet? This is a big year for this franchise and I would be a lot more comfortable with Quessenberry backing up at guard and tackle than forcing him into the starting lineup on week 1.

badboy
08-19-2013, 10:22 AM
Is Crick going to switch to offense?


Or does Crick starting mean we don't need Wade Phillips anymore?

You know I'm on your side, I just need to know which of my goofy arguments I need to brush up on.It actually took two reads for me to get what you were saying! lol I want Crick to replace Antonio 2014 ($9m cap) and Q to replace Wade. Too dang many Smiths. A mind is a terrible thing to waste...I am now accepting email donations for the "save BADBOY" collection. Can I count on you to be first with a hefty gift?

Tailgate
08-19-2013, 10:27 AM
Should the Texans be on the lookout for a vet guard who might be on the trading block? Do they have enough cap space to even pickup a vet? This is a big year for this franchise and I would be a lot more comfortable with Quessenberry backing up at guard and tackle than forcing him into the starting lineup on week 1.

Not sure if it would be worth it imo. If Quess is the future, let him gain the experience. The problem with our scheme it seems the more you mix and match the worse our play is. This scheme relies heavily on becoming one cohesive unit. Havent seen that since Winston and Brisiel.

badboy
08-19-2013, 10:43 AM
Q looked much better than Jones. I don't want to see a rotation there. If Smith can't go, throw Q in.Absolutely! I want a fluid LG who can assist Brown in keeping MS safe. Brooks just fits better imo on right and should improve our run to the right scheme. Q sort of reminds me of Bruce Matthews who could play either tackle or guard. Like you, I'd prefer Smith healthy to start this season allowing Q to not get in the fire but he is getting valuable experience now.

HOU-TEX
08-19-2013, 10:49 AM
Q looked much better than Jones. I don't want to see a rotation there. If Smith can't go, throw Q in.

I agree. I'd like to see him get a lot of PT with the 1's against the Saints. If he holds up against starters I'd roll with him. Imo, Jones hasn't progressed much since last season

76Texan
08-19-2013, 02:02 PM
Absolutely! I want a fluid LG who can assist Brown in keeping MS safe. Brooks just fits better imo on right and should improve our run to the right scheme. Q sort of reminds me of Bruce Matthews who could play either tackle or guard. Like you, I'd prefer Smith healthy to start this season allowing Q to not get in the fire but he is getting valuable experience now.

Quiz does look athletic, but he hasn't seen much competition (and it's not like he didn't have a few lumps here and there), I wouldn't mind seeing him getting a start next game just to see how he handles himself.

But the way it is right now, it looks like Jones is going to get the nod.

I'm afraid the Texans won't pick up a veteran in the hope that Smith can still come back sometimes down the road.

Any news on that front?

badboy
08-19-2013, 03:06 PM
Quiz does look athletic, but he hasn't seen much competition (and it's not like he didn't have a few lumps here and there), I wouldn't mind seeing him getting a start next game just to see how he handles himself.

But the way it is right now, it looks like Jones is going to get the nod.

I'm afraid the Texans won't pick up a veteran in the hope that Smith can still come back sometimes down the road.

Any news on that front?There is nothing out there but I would not be shocked if a vet were signed if it became obvious Smith not able to get on field for a few weeks. IMO, we would remain as is if doctors are saying he will be okay. For Jones to get the nod, he must play much better.

Playoffs
08-19-2013, 03:07 PM
Any news on that front?

Everything coming from the Texans so far is of the "just a little cleanup, be back soon" nature. Not so from Dr CND.

thunderkyss
08-19-2013, 04:17 PM
There is nothing out there but I would not be shocked if a vet were signed if it became obvious Smith not able to get on field for a few weeks. IMO, we would remain as is if doctors are saying he will be okay. For Jones to get the nod, he must play much better.

I'll have to watch again since so many keep saying Jones has been playing poorly. I don't recall anything so bad from him. At least not as bad as what I've been seeing from Wade.

I admit he is not the type of player I want to see on the left side & I think Q is a better fit, but I don't believe BenJones starting or playing in a rotation with Q is going to be detrimental to our success.

In fact I think Jones playing will be beneficial. If we need him to come in at Center, ant time he spends next to Chris Myers in a real game is beneficial.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

76Texan
08-19-2013, 05:12 PM
I'll have to watch again since so many keep saying Jones has been playing poorly. I don't recall anything so bad from him. At least not as bad as what I've been seeing from Wade.

I admit he is not the type of player I want to see on the left side & I think Q is a better fit, but I don't believe BenJones starting or playing in a rotation with Q is going to be detrimental to our success.

In fact I think Jones playing will be beneficial. If we need him to come in at Center, ant time he spends next to Chris Myers in a real game is beneficial.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Jones hasn't played four quarter against first teamers, but he had to move from LG to C during the game.
He did many good things, but also had some poor plays.
It's still early to gauge how he's going to do.
I'll give him some more time.