PDA

View Full Version : Was Deandre Hopkins' TD reception an incomplete pass?


avb
08-12-2013, 04:32 PM
Deandre Hopkins made a heck of a catch, and everyone knows he made a clean grab. But the defender knocked the ball out of his hands while he was still on the ground before he could get up. Does the Calvin Johnson rule apply here if it was a real game? Since it was preseason the outcome didn't matter but at least we were able to see his talents.

I apologize if this has already been discussed. This is my first time to the forum in many months. Go Texans!

Rey
08-12-2013, 04:38 PM
Ball was knocked out after he had already caught the ball, and maintained possession through the fall.

TD.

Calvin Johnson put the ball on the ground which could be see as using the ground to secure possession. Not the same thing.

Blake
08-12-2013, 04:49 PM
I considered this question right after the catch. I say catch with plays like this because DH caught the ball in the field of play and took across goal line. CJ play and others where they must maintain ball throughout catch and to the ground start and end already in the end zone.

ThaJokaa
08-12-2013, 04:49 PM
It's a catch, He secured the ball in the air, stepped into the Endzone, fell, and THEN the was knocked lose. Had he caught it, and the ball was knocked loose as he was falling to the ground or got loose as he landed then he failed to control the ball and he didn't "complete" the catch so it would've been ruled as incomplete. At least that's how I see its someone correct me if I'm wrong...

HOU-TEX
08-12-2013, 04:50 PM
No...

Playoffs
08-12-2013, 05:26 PM
http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1747621/hopkins.gif

http://northsiderotary.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/ref.jpg

Fili
08-12-2013, 11:00 PM
In the gif you can see DH securing the ball with his right hand then attempts to hold the ball up to show that he caught the ball. He switched the ball from his right to left hand.

Hervoyel
08-12-2013, 11:24 PM
I could very easily be wrong here but I thought that if he caught the ball before crossing the line of scrimmage then all he needed to do at that point was break the plane and it was a TD. That's opposed to a WR going up into the air in the end zone to catch the ball. Then wouldn't he be under more scrutiny as far as maintaining possession all the way through the play.

Vance87
08-12-2013, 11:33 PM
He has to control the ball all the way to the ground. He did this. In the gif it gets knocked out of his hand by the DB well after he's on the ground. TD

Corrosion
08-13-2013, 12:33 AM
I could very easily be wrong here but I thought that if he caught the ball before crossing the line of scrimmage then all he needed to do at that point was break the plane and it was a TD. That's opposed to a WR going up into the air in the end zone to catch the ball. Then wouldn't he be under more scrutiny as far as maintaining possession all the way through the play.

I had the same thought .... HE's already caught the ball , once he crosses the goal line the play is over.

Remember the "non-fumble" on the QB sneak by HWWNBM a few years back , he stuck the ball across the goal line - play is over.

Vance87
08-13-2013, 01:46 AM
I had the same thought .... HE's already caught the ball , once he crosses the goal line the play is over.

Remember the "non-fumble" on the QB sneak by HWWNBM a few years back , he stuck the ball across the goal line - play is over.

I think it's different for a catch. Remember Jean's catch in the 2012 opener against Miami? It was called a TD on the field but it was overturned because he didn't control the ball all the way to the ground, even though he went over the goal line with it.

In this case, Hopkins did, and only after that did the DB knock the ball out of his hands as he was trying to raise it up.

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 07:05 AM
In the gif you can see DH securing the ball with his right hand then attempts to hold the ball up to show that he caught the ball. He switched the ball from his right to left hand.

The important thing is that he had possession before going into the endzone.

Once he crosses that line, it doesn't matter what happens.

DocBar
08-13-2013, 07:20 AM
I was more concerned with the ref calling offensive PI when DH used his left hand on the CB's shoulder pad to help elevate himself. I think he got away with that part because he didn't redirect the CB but I'm not sure. There's not enough consistency on PI calls across the league for me to get a good handle on what is or isn't PI.

PapaL
08-13-2013, 07:34 AM
As soon as he crossed the plane of the endzone with possession, the play was over.

Calvin Johnson play was different in that he caught the ball in the endzone and needed to secure it. He caught it and put it on the ground; nullifying his catch.

Arian Foster was screwed out of a rushing touchdown once due to this rule being incorrectly enforced.

Rey
08-13-2013, 07:47 AM
To me the catch rules are a little fuzzy. I don't think that's a catch simply because he crossed the goal line. I think he had to maintain possession through the fall. If he were making a catch on the sideline going out of bounds he'd have to maintain possession through the fall as well.

I think that's why the ref waited until he went to the ground to make the call.

If all you had to do was have possession as you crossed the goal line that would mean you could catch the ball in the air, cross the GL fall down and immediately lose the ball or even lose it before hitting the ground and it'd still be a TD. But I don't think that's the case.

CloakNNNdagger
08-13-2013, 08:02 AM
I was more concerned with the ref calling offensive PI when DH used his left hand on the CB's shoulder pad to help elevate himself. I think he got away with that part because he didn't redirect the CB but I'm not sure. There's not enough consistency on PI calls across the league for me to get a good handle on what is or isn't PI.

I was sure that they were going to call PI. But they didn't. As one of the announcers mentioned, it appeared that Deandre's back blocked the ref from "appreciating" his hand on the defender. Deandre got away with one.

PapaL
08-13-2013, 08:53 AM
To me the catch rules are a little fuzzy. I don't think that's a catch simply because he crossed the goal line. I think he had to maintain possession through the fall. If he were making a catch on the sideline going out of bounds he'd have to maintain possession through the fall as well.

I think that's why the ref waited until he went to the ground to make the call.

If all you had to do was have possession as you crossed the goal line that would mean you could catch the ball in the air, cross the GL fall down and immediately lose the ball or even lose it before hitting the ground and it'd still be a TD. But I don't think that's the case.

The rules are different for catching the ball in the endzone compared to running into the endzone.

In Nuk's case, the catch was established and he made a football move meaning he was now a runner, not a reciever. Once the ball breaks the plane, the play is over.

The example you used happened all the time. WR catches the ball, put's ball out towards pylon, gets popped and drops the ball.

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 09:23 AM
To me the catch rules are a little fuzzy. I don't think that's a catch simply because he crossed the goal line. I think he had to maintain possession through the fall. If he were making a catch on the sideline going out of bounds he'd have to maintain possession through the fall as well.

I think that's why the ref waited until he went to the ground to make the call.

If all you had to do was have possession as you crossed the goal line that would mean you could catch the ball in the air, cross the GL fall down and immediately lose the ball or even lose it before hitting the ground and it'd still be a TD. But I don't think that's the case.

It's not a catch if his feet aren't on the ground. So if he's in the air, catches the ball, cross the goal line.... he's got to establish himself in the field of play, get two feet down, maintain possession all the way to the ground.

If he catches the ball & his knee comes down on the goal line.... that's a catch. nothing after matters & that's what happened.


But the ref did wait, so you're probably more right than me.

Rey
08-13-2013, 09:27 AM
The rules are different for catching the ball in the endzone compared to running into the endzone.

In Nuk's case, the catch was established and he made a football move meaning he was now a runner, not a reciever. Once the ball breaks the plane, the play is over.

The example you used happened all the time. WR catches the ball, put's ball out towards pylon, gets popped and drops the ball.

He didn't make a football move. He caught the ball, took two stumbling steps and fell.

And you misunderstood my example. I'm talking about catching the ball in the air like Hopkins did but not getting a foot down. Crossing the GL in the air.

Because he was going to the ground he needed to keep possession. Goal line or no goal line. Doesn't matter where you are, you have to complete the catch.

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 09:45 AM
Here's the official rule

PLAYER POSSESSION
Article 7 (http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/6_2012_Definitions.pdf)
Item 1: Player in Possession.
A player is in possession when he is in firm grip and control of the ball inbounds.

CATCH
A catch is made when a player inbounds secures possession of a pass, kick, or fumble in flight (See 8-1-3).

Note 1:
It is a catch if in the process of attempting to catch the ball, a player secures control of the ball prior to the ball touching the ground and that control is maintained after the ball has touched the ground.

Note 2:
In the field of play, if a catch of a forward pass has been completed, and there is contact by a defender causing the ball to come loose before the runner is down by contact, it is a fumble, and the ball remains alive. In the end zone, the same action is a touchdown, since the receiver completed the catch beyond the goal line prior to the loss of possession, and the ball is dead when the catch is completed.

The Pencil Neck
08-13-2013, 10:40 AM
One of the confusing things about the rules is that they tweak the rules occasionally. What would have been a catch one year, might not have been a catch another.

According to the rules TK posted:

1. He had a firm grip of the ball inbounds -- I think that "two feet and a football move" stuff was removed.
2. He crossed the goal line with the ball in possession and then he was down by contact so the play was over as soon as he crossed the goal line AND hit the ground.

At least, that's the way I'm reading it.

Since all TDs are reviewed, that means that the officials looked at the catch and it looked like a TD to them.

PapaL
08-13-2013, 06:21 PM
He didn't make a football move. He caught the ball, took two stumbling steps and fell.

And you misunderstood my example. I'm talking about catching the ball in the air like Hopkins did but not getting a foot down. Crossing the GL in the air.

Because he was going to the ground he needed to keep possession. Goal line or no goal line. Doesn't matter where you are, you have to complete the catch.

You can disagree but goal line makes all the difference in this case.
Catch + breaking plane = TD

Think of all the time a guy dives in and is leading w the ball and it gets punched out. If its for a 1st down or any non-scoring play, it's a fumble.

DocBar
08-13-2013, 07:55 PM
He didn't make a football move. He caught the ball, took two stumbling steps and fell.

And you misunderstood my example. I'm talking about catching the ball in the air like Hopkins did but not getting a foot down. Crossing the GL in the air.

Because he was going to the ground he needed to keep possession. Goal line or no goal line. Doesn't matter where you are, you have to complete the catch.I see you've only been a member since 2010. Two stumbling steps and falling on your face was a textbook "Texan" football move for 8 years by then. More of a fukball move than a football move. :tiphat::choke::toropalm:

:kitten:

DocBar
08-13-2013, 07:58 PM
I was sure that they were going to call PI. But they didn't. As one of the announcers mentioned, it appeared that Deandre's back blocked the ref from "appreciating" his hand on the defender. Deandre got away with one.If that's the case, VET MOVE!!!!! Rock on DH!!!:doot:

Rey
08-14-2013, 08:20 AM
You can disagree but goal line makes all the difference in this case.
Catch + breaking plane = TD

Think of all the time a guy dives in and is leading w the ball and it gets punched out. If its for a 1st down or any non-scoring play, it's a fumble.


When a guy dives with the ball in his hand he already has completed the catch or has already clearly established possession. Neither was the case on Hopkins catch.

Your argument is basically saying Hopkins could have dropped the ball before even going to the ground and it'd have been a TD. That's blatantly wrong.

You have to complete the catch. Period. Doesn't matter where you are on the field. Now you can disagree with that all you want but you'd be wrong. That's why the ref ran to make sure he had possession when he hit the ground.

Rey
08-14-2013, 08:21 AM
[

I see you've only been a member since 2010. Two stumbling steps and falling on your face was a textbook "Texan" football move for 8 years by then. More of a fukball move than a football move. :tiphat::choke::toropalm:

:kitten:

LOL...

But actually I've been around since '04. Couple different names since then.

PapaL
08-14-2013, 08:46 AM
You are wrong.

When a guy dives with the ball in his hand he already has completed the catch or has already clearly established possession. Neither was the case on Hopkins catch.

Your argument is basically saying Hopkins could have dropped the ball before even going to the ground and it'd have been a TD. That's blatantly wrong.

You have to complete the catch. Period. Doesn't matter where you are on the field. Now you can disagree with that all you want but you'd be wrong. That's why the ref ran to make sure he had possession when he hit the ground.

We will have to agree to disagree. Catch was made, he became a runner, ball crossed plane, TD. The ref and replay booth all agree.

Rey
08-14-2013, 09:30 AM
We will have to agree to disagree. Catch was made, he became a runner, ball crossed plane, TD. The ref and replay booth all agree.

The ref and replay booth agree that it was a touchdown. Which I have said it was...the reason it was a TD was because he maintained possession through his fall.

Why you'd throw that in there like that proves your point is beyond me.

PapaL
08-14-2013, 01:22 PM
The ref and replay booth agree that it was a touchdown. Which I have said it was...the reason it was a TD was because he maintained possession through his fall.

Why you'd throw that in there like that proves your point is beyond me.

As was this entire conversation; beyond you. :kubepalm: