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View Full Version : Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?


thunderkyss
08-11-2013, 02:34 PM
Let's say Matt's wife talks him into hanging it up before the season starts.... go live on a Hawaiian Island or something (it could happen), Who would you rather as our starting QB?

Tj Yates: From North Carolina, been running "our" system for at least 4 years.

Case: NCAAF passing leader (of all time)... he has "it"

poll coming

Speedy
08-11-2013, 03:00 PM
Tj Yates: From North Carolina, been running "our" system for at least 4 years.

There you go. Been running it 4 years and still not all that good at it.

The Pencil Neck
08-11-2013, 03:02 PM
After the Vikings game, I'm partial to Case. Before the Vikings game, I was partial to TJ.

I'd need to see more of both of them before I could say.

As a UH grad, I would love it story-wise if Case beat out TJ and turned into the second coming of Joe Montana. But I just want the best QB on the field, not the best story.

Hervoyel
08-11-2013, 03:05 PM
I'd like to state for the record that I didn't read all the options and didn't see "May the Best Man Win". I was thinking it was an either or and looked for my choice between the two and clicked away.

Had a finished reading the options I'd have clicked on "May The Best Man Win"

Corrosion
08-11-2013, 03:21 PM
After the Vikings game, I'm partial to Case. Before the Vikings game, I was partial to TJ.

I'd need to see more of both of them before I could say.

As a UH grad, I would love it story-wise if Case beat out TJ and turned into the second coming of Joe Montana. But I just want the best QB on the field, not the best story.

I feel pretty much the same way , pre Vikes I figured it was Yates job but post Vikes , I think its an open competition.
Its probably still "Yates job to lose" , but the pressure is ratcheted up a few notches. Keenum likely has to significantly outplay Yates but he has a shot to earn the job.


I do believe that Keenum had the better showing Vs the Vikes by a pretty wide margin. Yates started very slowly ....

DocBar
08-11-2013, 03:51 PM
Let's say Matt's wife talks him into hanging it up before the season starts.... go live on a Hawaiian Island or something (it could happen), Who would you rather as our starting QB?

Tj Yates: From North Carolina, been running "our" system for at least 4 years.

Case: NCAAF passing leader (of all time)... he has "it"

poll comingThis is Yate's 4th year in the system. He hasn't been running the system for four years. Next preseason you can say he's been running the system for four years. :D

I voted for Keenum. That "it" he seems to have is greater than the sum of Yates' experience, IMHO.

thunderkyss
08-11-2013, 03:53 PM
I'd need to see more of both of them before I could say.




Had a finished reading the options I'd have clicked on "May The Best Man Win"

No worries. If there's plenty of participation in this thread, I'll start another one after week 2, then week 3, then week 4

thunderkyss
08-11-2013, 04:00 PM
This is Yate's 4th year in the system. He hasn't been running the system for four years. Next preseason you can say he's been running the system for four years. :D

I voted for Keenum. That "it" he seems to have is greater than the sum of Yates' experience, IMHO.

Actually I was trying to include his Junior & Senior year at UNC.... but my math is bad either way.

AngryNateFTW
08-11-2013, 04:01 PM
If Schaub had to hang it up before the season started I would have to say that the QB who gives us the best chance to win isn't on our roster.

We'd trade for someone. I'm not going to say who but I know that Kubiak has connections. *Hint Hint*

If Schaub finishes out his contract I could see Case possibly improving more and being able to hold the starting job.

Yates wasn't even impressive at UNC.

Thorn
08-11-2013, 04:02 PM
May the best man win.

But I have a feeling it'd be Case eventually taking over whether he got it immediately or not. TJ seems like a career backup to me, but Case has starting potential if he can learn the pro game.

thunderkyss
08-11-2013, 04:11 PM
Yates wasn't even impressive at UNC.

Uh.... he was drafted. The other guy was passed by 32 teams 7 times.

That's 32 x 7 = Something like a million times.

AngryNateFTW
08-11-2013, 04:28 PM
Uh.... he was drafted. The other guy was passed by 32 teams 7 times.

That's 32 x 7 = Something like a million times.

Matt Cassel never played a down in college and got drafted.

Jason White won the heisman and went undrafted.

Matt Flynn was a 7th round pick and came in and torched the Lions as a back-up which led to his nice paychecks in Seattle and Oakland.

It all depends on what scouts see during the pre-draft process. It doesn't mean all scouts are right.

If all scouts were right, Ryan Leaf would be in the elite status, Tom Brady would be a nobody, Charles Rogers would be better than AJ, and Watt wouldn't have had 20.5 sacks last season....

Direct quote from Watt's combine scouting report

WEAKNESSES: Won't consistently get the edge on tackles with his get off or quickness. Plays high at times, can be blown off the ball by the double team, but does fight hard to hold ground. Lacks some lateral mobility both rushing the passer and playing in space. Will occasionally give up outside contain.

Bolded everything wrong in this scouting report. :)

Obviously scouts/coaches saw more in Yates than they did in Keenum but that doesn't mean Yates will be the better pro.

Scouts aren't always right. Scouts don't decide a player's future.

Showtime100
08-11-2013, 04:38 PM
No worries. If there's plenty of participation in this thread, I'll start another one after week 2, then week 3, then week 4

Yeah, I voted 'may the best man win' due to how early it is. I'm sure one or the other will win my vote in the weeks to come.

Brandon420tx
08-11-2013, 04:42 PM
This thread should have waited until at least next week. I'm really not going take a position on this yet

Corrosion
08-11-2013, 04:52 PM
This thread should have waited until at least next week. I'm really not going take a position on this yet

I think its pretty telling that Kubiak stated they are considering playing Keenum ahead of Yates against Miami ....

Yes , we need a greater sample size from both to make a decision .... But I'm somewhat surprised that its a battle at all. When camp opened , I didn't give Keenum much of a chance at making the roster much less being the #2.

After watching parts of camp and both play against Minny , I have to believe that both are on the table for Keenum.

Vance87
08-11-2013, 05:02 PM
Schaub can't do that!

:specnatz:

PapaL
08-11-2013, 05:23 PM
I genuinely don't give a rats ass who the QB. Let the better QB win.

FTR - Case had it in college. There's no proof he has it in the pros. Actually 32 franchises decided he didn't have it when he went undrafted. Minor point.

eriadoc
08-11-2013, 05:24 PM
May the best man win. I've never had a problem with Yates winning the #2 job. I have a problem with people who are writing off/want to write off Keenum without letting them compete. If Yates beats out Keenum (he ought to, given his experience), then good for him. Frankly, I had hoped he'd be competing with Schaub at this point instead of Keenum.

But don't push another man down just because you want confirmation of your bias.

DocBar
08-11-2013, 05:33 PM
Uh.... he was drafted. The other guy was passed by 32 teams 7 times.

That's 32 x 7 = Something like a million times.Wow!!! You are bad at math!!!! :lol:

Lucky
08-11-2013, 05:35 PM
This thread should have waited until at least next week. I'm really not going take a position on this yet
It should have stayed in the existing Keenum thread. I would have merged it, but I don't know what would have happened to the poll.

There won't be another poll after each preseason game. This is THE poll. Two threads about the backup QB is enough.

76Texan
08-11-2013, 05:52 PM
It should have stayed in the existing Keenum thread. I would have merged it, but I don't know what would have happened to the poll.

There won't be another poll after each preseason game. This is THE poll. Two threads about the backup QB is enough.

Clinton were obsessed with Polls, and I think Obama has been as well.
Polls or surveys change all the time.
They reflect the changing mood of people at different points in time.
Can we have poll for each week, but then merge them eventually?

It won't change for me until it's really clear cut as I just want the best man to win and that was what I vote, but if I were to give them scores, I would have to say that Keenum won this last game.

DocBar
08-11-2013, 05:59 PM
I genuinely don't give a rats ass who the QB. Let the better QB win.

FTR - Case had it in college. There's no proof he has it in the pros. Actually 32 franchises decided he didn't have it when he went undrafted. Minor point.Most dislike his height and the fact that played in a spread offense. Great spread offense QB's usually don't fare too well at the NFL level.

Lucky
08-11-2013, 06:02 PM
Can we have poll for each week, but then merge them eventually?

Can't merge polls. We don't have a poll meister like Clinton did in Dick Morris. Why don't we just state our opinions in the thread instead?

76Texan
08-11-2013, 06:10 PM
Can't merge polls. We don't have a poll meister like Clinton did in Dick Morris. Why don't we just state our opinions in the thread instead?

When you merge the two or three threads, the old polls would disappear, is that correct, or they all disappear or what?

TK can make a not of the old polls, let's say on the day before the next game and put that result in the new thread.

However we do it, I think it's interesting to see the change from week to week.

thunderkyss
08-11-2013, 08:35 PM
However we do it, I think it's interesting to see the change from week to week.

If it's a true competition, our minds should change from week to week.

This poll, this thread will probably die after Wednesday. It'll be on page two by Sunday, or Saturday night when the next poll would be made.

But hey.... you now I don't want to rock the boat.

Vance87
08-11-2013, 08:37 PM
Wow!!! You are bad at math!!!! :lol:

Well there were 254 picks in the draft...so he was only off by 999,746.

EllisUnit
08-11-2013, 09:04 PM
I genuinely don't give a rats ass who the QB. Let the better QB win.

FTR - Case had it in college. There's no proof he has it in the pros. Actually 32 franchises decided he didn't have it when he went undrafted. Minor point.

via Arian Foster

ATXtexanfan
08-11-2013, 09:19 PM
via Arian Foster

Via tates injury?????

ATXtexanfan
08-11-2013, 09:23 PM
Man the case love is worse than VY sausage suckage. he looked ok against third string guys who wont have a job in a month.

bayoudreamn
08-11-2013, 09:31 PM
Man the case love is worse than VY sausage suckage. he looked ok against third string guys who wont have a job in a month.

....playing with guys who won't have a job in a month.

I voted let the best man win. The stats were close with TJ getting 20-30 more yards and a tiny deficit in completion percentage.....but 17-0 is significant. The reason qb's get so much grief is because what they do has such an impact on everyone else. It appears that the team played faster and looser after TJ left. This is just one game, it might change in the next one but there was nothing wrong with Ck performance. I think TJ was sluggish/inefficient and that concerns me, he shouldn't be at this point

ObsiWan
08-11-2013, 09:42 PM
Schaub can't do that!

:specnatz:
This was my vote too.

If Schaub's wife wants to move to Hawaii then let her. Schaub has enough cash to buy her a sweet condo and let her move out there and lounge on the beach all she wants.

Schaub has work to do here.

76Texan
08-11-2013, 10:03 PM
I haven't digged into the fourth quarter yet, but in the third quarter, Keenum actually was operating in a more adverse situation that Yates did.

The composite group that Yates had on the field with him was clearly superior to the group that Keenum had.

The defense that Keenum faced was about the same, or just a hair below the defense that Yates saw.

Several Vikings defensive players remained in the game (6 of them).
3 new guys came in were at least the equivalent of the 3 they replaced.
Only two guys were lesser than the guys they replaced, but one of them is a 322lb NT, Anthony McCloud, who had 8 TFLs and 4 sacks in his best year at Florida St, and DT Everett Dawkins - a 7th round draft pick.
Dawkins was given a 5th-6th rd grade by NFL Draft Scout (they think he can eventually replace Fred Evans - a former 7th rounder, who played in the second qtr.)

The Vikings also rotated in some players in both the second and third quarter.

Overall, there was not a significant talent difference between the unit that Yates and Keenum faced; however, the offensive unit that surrounded Keenum is clearly at least half a notch below the unit that Yates had.

AngryNateFTW
08-11-2013, 10:29 PM
Via tates injury?????

They actually drafted Tate AFTER Foster's great performance in 2009 as a rookie in Miami and vs. NE.

DocBar
08-11-2013, 10:34 PM
Man the case love is worse than VY sausage suckage. he looked ok against third string guys who wont have a job in a month.Put down the crack pipe and Haterade.

AngryNateFTW
08-11-2013, 10:51 PM
I haven't digged into the fourth quarter yet, but in the third quarter, Keenum actually was operating in a more adverse situation that Yates did.

The composite group that Yates had on the field with him was clearly superior to the group that Keenum had.

The defense that Keenum faced was about the same, or just a hair below the defense that Yates saw.

Several Vikings defensive players remained in the game (6 of them).
3 new guys came in were at least the equivalent of the 3 they replaced.
Only two guys were lesser than the guys they replaced, but one of them is a 322lb NT, Anthony McCloud, who had 8 TFLs and 4 sacks in his best year at Florida St, and DT Everett Dawkins - a 7th round draft pick.
Dawkins was given a 5th-6th rd grade by NFL Draft Scout (they think he can eventually replace Fred Evans - a former 7th rounder, who played in the second qtr.)

The Vikings also rotated in some players in both the second and third quarter.

Overall, there was not a significant talent difference between the unit that Yates and Keenum faced; however, the offensive unit that surrounded Keenum is clearly at least half a notch below the unit that Yates had.

Great analysis overall. I was watching the game again and noticed the same thing that I put in bold.

PapaL
08-11-2013, 10:51 PM
via Arian Foster

What about the thousands of UDFA that are not in the league.

DocBar
08-11-2013, 11:06 PM
What about the thousands of UDFA that are not in the league.Too bad Brady didn't go UDFA. Maybe the AFCCG wouldn't go through Boston so much. I'm also glad that ego, money and job security doesn't play into who gets what money. NOT

PapaL
08-12-2013, 07:56 AM
Too bad Brady didn't go UDFA. Maybe the AFCCG wouldn't go through Boston so much. I'm also glad that ego, money and job security doesn't play into who gets what money. NOT

You guys can point to the handful of UDFA that have had success and hold out hope that your guy is one of them. It happens but more likely than not it does not. Hell most drafted QBs aren't successful. It is what it is. Can't let your like like/dislike for a guy cloud your judgement. If Case can do it, cool. I won't be holding my breath and knocking the guy that has seen live fire for us. Until someone says he's 2QB, he's still PSQB to me.

DocBar
08-12-2013, 08:11 AM
You guys can point to the handful of UDFA that have had success and hold out hope that your guy is one of them. It happens but more likely than not it does not. Hell most drafted QBs aren't successful. It is what it is. Can't let your like like/dislike for a guy cloud your judgement. If Case can do it, cool. I won't be holding my breath and knocking the guy that has seen live fire for us. Until someone says he's 2QB, he's still PSQB to me. Good points. I only have 1 dog in this hunt: the better QB should be #2. It's my opinion that Case has gone a long way toward proving that point. I'm not a UH fan or alumni, I'm a Texans fan.

I think most of us just want a level competition between Yates and Keenum and not just anoint Yates as #2 because he's seen real game time and Keenum hasn't. I guess it boils down to

JUST WIN BABY!!

:koolaid:

disaacks3
08-12-2013, 08:13 AM
It's too damn early for this. Case played well Wk. 1 of the pre-season against 3's. Let's see it consecutive weeks before he displaces a guy who has won "real" games for this team, including the playoffs.

Note: I'm ecstatic with Case's showing against the Vikes, I hope he keeps it up.

silvrhand
08-12-2013, 08:53 AM
Can't remember when this board was so worked up about backup QB position.. who cares, hopefully we'll never see either of them cause as much as I like hate to admit it, we are better off with Schaub than either of these two guys.

ArlingtonTexan
08-12-2013, 09:02 AM
Option 5

Neither one of them looks like a week-in, week-out starting NFL QB, so I am not excited about either.

HOU-TEX
08-12-2013, 09:15 AM
Option 5

Neither one of them looks like a week-in, week-out starting NFL QB, so I am not excited about either.

I agree

I'm not sure Schaub's the one to take this team to the Bowl, but I'm fairly certain these two aren't.

DocBar
08-12-2013, 10:03 AM
Can't remember when this board was so worked up about backup QB position.. who cares, hopefully we'll never see either of them cause as much as I like hate to admit it, we are better off with Schaub than either of these two guys.Back in the pre-Rosencopter days. A lot of people thought Sage should've started over Carr. The he Rosencoptered and all that talk kind of died down. :smiliepalm:

rmartin65
08-12-2013, 10:37 AM
May the best man win. Personally, I think it is Yates, but if Keenum wins out, then more power to him. That said, I am sick of the UH Keenum fanboys overlooking every flaw. If he is as good as some of you seem to think he is, then the Texans are a lock to win the Super Bowl this year.

76Texan
08-12-2013, 10:37 AM
Can't remember when this board was so worked up about backup QB position.. who cares, hopefully we'll never see either of them cause as much as I like hate to admit it, we are better off with Schaub than either of these two guys.

I'm a little surprise that you're so totally against Keenum.
He's the anti-Schaub that you seem to like; I guess you want a superstar right off the bat.

Let me just remind you that Brady was only 1-3 for six yards in his rookie year.

He had an up-and-down sophomore season, winning the SB with 145 yards passing. The Rams were a 14-pt favorite; only 3 turnovers did them in.

He then accumulated a career low 85.7 QB rating in his third year.

76Texan
08-12-2013, 10:40 AM
May the best man win. Personally, I think it is Yates, but if Keenum wins out, then more power to him. That said, I am sick of the UH Keenum fanboys overlooking every flaw. If he is as good as some of you seem to think he is, then the Texans are a lock to win the Super Bowl this year.

Come on Rmartin, you're taking it to the extreme, my friend.
Your two colleagues (Badboy and beerlover) are in agreement that Keenum has improved a great deal and deserves a good shot.

rmartin65
08-12-2013, 10:43 AM
Come on Rmartin, you're taking it to the extreme, my friend.
Your two colleagues (Badboy and beerlover) are in agreement that Keenum has improved a great deal and deserves a good shot.

I am not saying he has not improved, nor am I saying that he does not deserve a good shot. He has improved, and he does deserve a good shot. However, this anointing of him as the franchise's QB of the future is premature. There are 3 more games left, may the best out of Keenum/Yates win.

Speedy
08-12-2013, 10:47 AM
May the best man win. Personally, I think it is Yates, but if Keenum wins out, then more power to him. That said, I am sick of the UH Keenum fanboys overlooking every flaw. If he is as good as some of you seem to think he is, then the Texans are a lock to win the Super Bowl this year.

At least they aren't making up flaws as they type.

I haven't seen anybody here claim Case is the 2nd coming of Tom Brady. What I see is people wanting a better backup than TJ Yates and hoping Case can be that guy. And then eventually take over for Schaub down the road.

thunderkyss
08-12-2013, 10:48 AM
May the best man win. Personally, I think it is Yates, but if Keenum wins out, then more power to him. That said, I am sick of the UH Keenum fanboys overlooking every flaw. If he is as good as some of you seem to think he is, then the Texans are a lock to win the Super Bowl this year.

I feel the exact same way.

76Texan
08-12-2013, 10:52 AM
I am not saying he has not improved, nor am I saying that he does not deserve a good shot. He has improved, and he does deserve a good shot. However, this anointing of him as the franchise's QB of the future is premature. There are 3 more games left, may the best out of Keenum/Yates win.

Just enjoy the Backup QB battle then :)

76Texan
08-12-2013, 10:56 AM
And look at the update on the poll at the Chronicle website.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/

58% percent of the voters think Keenum deserves the second spot while only 7% think that Yates gets the nod.

That's a huge margin.

rmartin65
08-12-2013, 10:57 AM
Just enjoy the Backup QB battle then :)

I most certainly plan to. I have not been able to catch the game yet, but I see it is coming up on NFLN in the next couple days. I will catch it eventually.

thunderkyss
08-12-2013, 10:58 AM
And look at the update on the poll at the Chronicle website.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/

58% percent of the voters think Keenum deserves the second spot while only 7% think that Yates gets the nod.

That's a huge margin.

I wonder how that number would look if the poll was in the North Carolina Gazette.

TexansFTW
08-12-2013, 11:10 AM
If you got hate in your heart then do it in another thread.

1. No one is claiming we have a backup QB competition that is gonna set the world on fire

2. What's wrong with caring about the backup QB position battle? Most important position in football. Ask the 2011 Texans after the season if they wished they went a different direction than Matt Lion-heart and were ready for the playoffs

3. What's wrong with rooting for Case to do good and potentially win a backup QB job? Yeah I went to UH when Case was burning up record books, yeah I like the guy, and yes I'm a fan. What's the issue?

I failed to notice in the thread title where it mentioned insulting people for rooting for their favorite guy to win a backup QB competition battle. Case may or may not ever have starting QB potential, but I'm gonna root for him and let the FO and coaching staff decide the place he should play on this team.

DX-TEX
08-12-2013, 11:13 AM
May the best man win. Personally, I think it is Yates, but if Keenum wins out, then more power to him. That said, I am sick of the UH Keenum fanboys overlooking every flaw. If he is as good as some of you seem to think he is, then the Texans are a lock to win the Super Bowl this year.

THANK YOU! Its almost another VY situation with some people. They loved him in college and in their eyes he can do no wrong.

TexansFTW
08-12-2013, 11:18 AM
And look at the update on the poll at the Chronicle website.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/

58% percent of the voters think Keenum deserves the second spot while only 7% think that Yates gets the nod.

That's a huge margin.

I see 81% to 16%. Either way, pretty lopsided. And yeah, many of Cases votes probably come out of biased fans, but I don't think that accounts for that big of a margin.

Even if this poll was done in North Carolina I doubt TJ would get many more votes. He was 4-4 in the ACC his last year there and barely defeated a 6-7 Tennessee team in a bowl game in double OT. I doubt his "fans" are following him very far.

Who should back up Matt Schaub?
Case Keenum (81%, 428 Votes)
T.J. Yates (16%, 86 Votes)
Other (3%, 16 Votes)
Total Voters: 530
Polls Archive

76Texan
08-12-2013, 11:20 AM
I wonder how that number would look if the poll was in the North Carolina Gazette.

I don't see a NC Gazette on the list of newspaper in NC, so I don't know, haha.

http://www.usnpl.com/ncnews.php

At any rate, if there's a poll in the state of NC, I don't know how it turns out.

What I know is that Yates was not hugely popular at his own school, as his career TD/INT ratio of 58/46 didn't wow the fans at UNC.
I perused their MBs for awhile after we drafted Yates.

76Texan
08-12-2013, 11:27 AM
THANK YOU! Its almost another VY situation with some people. They loved him in college and in their eyes he can do no wrong.

I'd be interested in what you saw that Keenum did wrong in the last game.

rmartin65
08-12-2013, 11:32 AM
If you got hate in your heart then do it in another thread.

1. No one is claiming we have a backup QB competition that is gonna set the world on fire

2. What's wrong with caring about the backup QB position battle? Most important position in football. Ask the 2011 Texans after the season if they wished they went a different direction than Matt Lion-heart and were ready for the playoffs

3. What's wrong with rooting for Case to do good and potentially win a backup QB job? Yeah I went to UH when Case was burning up record books, yeah I like the guy, and yes I'm a fan. What's the issue?

I failed to notice in the thread title where it mentioned insulting people for rooting for their favorite guy to win a backup QB competition battle. Case may or may not ever have starting QB potential, but I'm gonna root for him and let the FO and coaching staff decide the place he should play on this team.

It's got nothing to do with hate, and I am not seeing any personal attacks. People simply want the best players on the team, as we are fans of the team. To some of us, it seems that others (though certainly not all) are letting their school allegiance cloud their judgment.

THANK YOU! Its almost another VY situation with some people. They loved him in college and in their eyes he can do no wrong.

To be fair, everyone gets man-crushes at some point. And it is not like Keenum is some scrub- the kid can play. So while I agree with you to an extent, I try not to let it bother me. It just makes it hard to talk objectively about the situation, though it is certainly possible.

76Texan
08-12-2013, 11:53 AM
It's got nothing to do with hate, and I am not seeing any personal attacks. People simply want the best players on the team, as we are fans of the team. To some of us, it seems that others (though certainly not all) are letting their school allegiance cloud their judgment.



To be fair, everyone gets man-crushes at some point. And it is not like Keenum is some scrub- the kid can play. So while I agree with you to an extent, I try not to let it bother me. It just makes it hard to talk objectively about the situation, though it is certainly possible.

Rmartin, remember how we exchanged ideas about different receivers during the draft period.

We can do the same here.
Watch the game and tell us what you think are flaws with Keenum as compared with Yates as well as what they were good at.

thunderkyss
08-12-2013, 12:09 PM
I'd be interested in what you saw that Keenum did wrong in the last game.

I don't think we've seen Keenum in a position to "really" run this offense. The guys he was playing with didn't give him a lot of time, or a lot of targets. We saw that he's got it enough upstairs to compensate for that (which is a good thing) & whatever negatives he had pre-draft aren't going to stop him from being succesful in this league.

I'm looking forward to seeing him with the first/second team in the next game (even though Miami's first/second team defense is going to be better than what we saw from Minnesota).

I've got no problem with people being excited about Keenum. The only thing that bugs me is when they tear down Tj. I'm not a fan of either of them, I want the better of the two to get the opportunity to be one play away from the big game (even though I doubt Kubiak will go with the best option, I feel he's going to go with more experience).

Tj looked really good out there to me, in command of the offense & running it the way the big guy wants it ran.

Expecting Tj to throw the ball better than he did last year, or whatever is not what we should be expecting from Tj. If he's improved from last year, or the year before, it's going to be in his grasp of the play book. & only Gary, Matt, & Keenum can judge that (we simply don't have enough information).

The gap between Yates & Keenum is in their command of the playbook. Not their physical ability, both have the talent needed to be successful in this league. For them, it's the mental aspect that's separates them from starters.

thunderkyss
08-12-2013, 12:17 PM
To be fair, everyone gets man-crushes at some point. And it is not like Keenum is some scrub- the kid can play. So while I agree with you to an extent, I try not to let it bother me. It just makes it hard to talk objectively about the situation, though it is certainly possible.

I'll tell you a good thing about finding someone like Keenum, smart enough to play the game, & with enough physical tools to do it, is that Kubiak is able to take his time developing him, where he wouldn't have that time with a first or second round pick.

Keenum can be exactly the same player he is today, but if we took him with a second round pick, it would be insane around here.

Carr Bombed
08-12-2013, 12:58 PM
I wonder how that number would look if the poll was in the North Carolina Gazette.

Um, probably not that much different.. Yates was highly scrutinized and was booed by his home fans through out his college career.

PapaL
08-12-2013, 01:45 PM
At least they aren't making up flaws as they type.

I haven't seen anybody here claim Case is the 2nd coming of Tom Brady. What I see is people wanting a better backup than TJ Yates and hoping Case can be that guy. And then eventually take over for Schaub down the road.

I think the poll results say they (27 people at this time) want Case to be the #2 regardless. While 19 say "may the best man win".

Who gives a spit where he played? :strangle: (not directed at you)

Give me the best guy on the field, 2nd best holding the clipboard, and a "maybe someday" on the PS.

PapaL
08-12-2013, 01:46 PM
I'll tell you a good thing about finding someone like Keenum, smart enough to play the game, & with enough physical tools to do it, is that Kubiak is able to take his time developing him, where he wouldn't have that time with a first or second round pick.

Keenum can be exactly the same player he is today, but if we took him with a second round pick, it would be insane around here.

Can you imagine if VY had been our pick? Some folks around here would still want him to be the QB. :wild:

HJam72
08-12-2013, 01:53 PM
I don't think we've seen Keenum in a position to "really" run this offense. The guys he was playing with didn't give him a lot of time, or a lot of targets. We saw that he's got it enough upstairs to compensate for that (which is a good thing) & whatever negatives he had pre-draft aren't going to stop him from being succesful in this league.

I'm looking forward to seeing him with the first/second team in the next game (even though Miami's first/second team defense is going to be better than what we saw from Minnesota).

I've got no problem with people being excited about Keenum. The only thing that bugs me is when they tear down Tj. I'm not a fan of either of them, I want the better of the two to get the opportunity to be one play away from the big game (even though I doubt Kubiak will go with the best option, I feel he's going to go with more experience).

Tj looked really good out there to me, in command of the offense & running it the way the big guy wants it ran.

Expecting Tj to throw the ball better than he did last year, or whatever is not what we should be expecting from Tj. If he's improved from last year, or the year before, it's going to be in his grasp of the play book. & only Gary, Matt, & Keenum can judge that (we simply don't have enough information).

The gap between Yates & Keenum is in their command of the playbook. Not their physical ability, both have the talent needed to be successful in this league. For them, it's the mental aspect that's separates them from starters.

Keenum says he dint grasp ****. :fingergun:

thunderkyss
08-12-2013, 03:47 PM
Can you imagine if VY had been our pick? Some folks around here would still want him to be the QB. :wild:

I'm watching him in GB right now. Still looks competent, made some nice throws, a couple of good runs.... he can hand the ball off like a mutha... Looks better than that Harrell guy they had out there, but there's no way he knows the playbook as well.

Watching this, I can imagine some GB fans (or a bunch of fanboys posing as GB fans) arguing that Vince is ahead of Graham, and there's no way.

True, they brought him in to push Harrell, they want a better option behind Aaron Rodgers, but if Vince doesn't make major strides learning that playbook, he won't make the team.

Same thing here. I don't know how anyone could have seen enough to have an opinion of how much of the playbook Case knows. Half the guys out there were probably thinking they were running the plays right, but weren't. All together, they probably "knew" enough to run 30% of the playbook right, if that much.

We don't "know" anything about his grasp of the playbook, or his ability to manage this offense & won't until he plays with the 1s&2s. Anyone saying different is selling something.

NCTexan
08-12-2013, 03:50 PM
Um, probably not that much different.. Yates was highly scrutinized and was booed by his home fans through out his college career.

Not so much his senior year.

drs23
08-12-2013, 07:00 PM
Same thing here. I don't know how anyone could have seen enough to have an opinion of how much of the playbook Case knows.

I'm gonna go with only ONE GUY here that can form an opinion on how much CK has a grasp on the playbook and that the HC. Kubiak is on record countless times since mini-camp saying that Keenum has a grasp on what's going on, knows the playbook and can now just go out there and play without thinking. As a football simpleton and as naive as I am I have a tendency to believe that what Kubiak is saying is more than mere 'coach speak'.

Granted, I don't have a clue as to what I'm watching but I *think* I watched #7 chuck three TD passes in a very short period of time. Granted Maehl stone handed two of 'em at two separate pylons but they were both right on the money, right in his hands and they both appeared to me to be very catchable. Looked kinda like a couple of those oft' talked about 'off schedule plays'.

I'm gonna (in my best Spencer Tillman voice) "hold my water" for the present but so far I'm liking what I'm seeing.

burro
08-12-2013, 10:08 PM
The reasonable thing to assume is that we're in big trouble if Schaub isn't available. Keenum looked average against the 4th worst defense's 3rd stringers. He showed "escapability", but he also showed sloppy mechanics and below-average arm strength (it would be ironic to see Schaub bashers drooling over Keenum).

TJ looked like TJ...meh.

In terms of the back-up competition, remember that Uncle Bob likes a good story. If it's even remotely close, Keenum is getting the job.

infantrycak
08-12-2013, 10:31 PM
He showed "escapability", but he also showed ... below-average arm strength (it would be ironic to see Schaub bashers drooling over Keenum).

Can you actually name some plays which demonstrate this or are you just reciting reputation?

silvrhand
08-12-2013, 10:46 PM
I'm a little surprise that you're so totally against Keenum.
He's the anti-Schaub that you seem to like; I guess you want a superstar right off the bat.

Let me just remind you that Brady was only 1-3 for six yards in his rookie year.

He had an up-and-down sophomore season, winning the SB with 145 yards passing. The Rams were a 14-pt favorite; only 3 turnovers did them in.

He then accumulated a career low 85.7 QB rating in his third year.

You are taking one example of a QB who's been with one of the best orgs and coach since day 1 to make a point that case keenum, woahfully undersized, and UofH hopeful to make the roster and lead the texans to a dream team.

- undersized
- not great arm strength
- not great mobility, but better than what we are used to.
- spread QB

What's there really to like about this kid at this point in his career? He doesn't seem to have the "it" factor.

silvrhand
08-12-2013, 10:49 PM
And look at the update on the poll at the Chronicle website.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/

58% percent of the voters think Keenum deserves the second spot while only 7% think that Yates gets the nod.

That's a huge margin.

Hmm a local town kid against an non local town kid.. shocker that Keenum is ahead in the voting..

burro
08-12-2013, 10:57 PM
Can you actually name some plays which demonstrate this or are you just reciting reputation?

An obvious one would be the TD pass to Jean. It floated for what felt like 10 seconds and almost didn't get there. Yes, it was a bootleg to the left, but that's no excuse.

infantrycak
08-13-2013, 12:31 AM
An obvious one would be the TD pass to Jean. It floated for what felt like 10 seconds and almost didn't get there. Yes, it was a bootleg to the left, but that's no excuse.

If you mean an obviously wrong conclusion then you are correct. That ball and play went exactly as intended. Almost didn't get there? - Hopkins had to use his ups to go get the ball.

Vance87
08-13-2013, 01:51 AM
An obvious one would be the TD pass to Jean. It floated for what felt like 10 seconds and almost didn't get there. Yes, it was a bootleg to the left, but that's no excuse.

He floated it because there was a defender in his grill trying to knock it down.

3 passes indicate he has good arm strength - Jean's facemask boink, the sneaky one that hit Griffin in between two defenders, and the near-sack he avoided and gunned to Jean while going out of bounds.

TexansFTW
08-13-2013, 08:23 AM
Why don't one of yall buy the ALL-22 (all 22 angles) package from NFL.com? I really want to in order to make points and use video proof for backing, but downloading, then uploading videos is gonna take forever, plus the cost.

I don't know why I thought that package was gonna be free coming into this year.

Either way, this debate should hopefully get some clarification Saturday evening.

76Texan
08-13-2013, 08:50 AM
You are taking one example of a QB who's been with one of the best orgs and coach since day 1 to make a point that case keenum, woahfully undersized, and UofH hopeful to make the roster and lead the texans to a dream team.


It was a great example.

As good a QB that Tom Brady is today; he had to start somewhere.

It was quite humbling a start to be exact.

If you would rather take Doug Flutie as an example, I would be fine with it, too.
Flutie was nowhere as good as Keenum in college.

There, is that OK with you as far as comparison goes? :fishing:

76Texan
08-13-2013, 09:22 AM
- undersized
- not great arm strength
- not great mobility, but better than what we are used to.
- spread QB

What's there really to like about this kid at this point in his career? He doesn't seem to have the "it" factor.

Well, Flutie was listed at 5'10, but I think he was shorter than that.

Dave Krieg was listed at 6'1, but I think he's shorter than that, too.
But let's say he's 6'1, that's only 3/8 of an inch more than Keenum.
And he played 19 years in the NFL.

Did Keenum's height led to batted passes more than the guys that were drafted?
No.
Did it lead to more INT?
No.

What is it that concern you?

Drew Brees is listed at 6'0 and 208lbs by Wiki.
Keenum measured in at 6-5/8 and 208lbs at the combine.

His ball velocity was clocked at the same number as Yates, I believe.
It also compares favorably with many drafted QBs the last several years.

I've seen him throw the ball 52 yards from the LOS (pro-rating to a straight line.)
Before last year, the furthest I've seen Schaub throw was 47 yards, and Yates 50 - in a real game.


We have Schau and you talk about mobility?
You know it's funny, don't you.

Do you know that Keenum ran for 2,000 yards and 41 TDs in 42 high school games?
Does that sound like a lack of mobility to you?

Spread QB?
Brady and Brees are playing in a spread system right now.
Brees played in a spread system at Purdue, too.
(I don't know about Brady.)

RG III played in a spread system with Art Briles, the same coach that Keenum had when he first arrived at UH.

Brandon Weeden played in a spread system, too.
The offensive coordinator at UH in 08-09 was Dana Holgorsen.
He left to take the job at Okla. St. in 2010.

Are you satisfied with my answers?

rmartin65
08-13-2013, 12:19 PM
Rmartin, remember how we exchanged ideas about different receivers during the draft period.

We can do the same here.
Watch the game and tell us what you think are flaws with Keenum as compared with Yates as well as what they were good at.

Watched the game, and I don't see much of a difference in terms of talent between the two. As a result, if I had to pick the roster today I would choose Yates, due to experience and height. However, the competition is not over. Hopefully Keenum gets a shot with the two's next week.

TexansFTW
08-13-2013, 12:25 PM
Are you satisfied with my answers?

I'm not gonna quote that whole thing, but it looks like you put some time into that.

Well done and well said.

Expected to get hated on now because you have "bias" though.

Trail.Blazr
08-13-2013, 12:42 PM
I wonder how that number would look if the poll was in the North Carolina Gazette.

I'm 15 miles from Carolina's Keenan stadium and I voted Case in our poll. That probably doesn't answer your question, but it does suggest that it's not all about alma mater.

Comparing the 2's collegiate careers Case was more prolific. I'm not sold on height as a factor worth caring about. I'd love to have Brees or Flutie.. both WINNERS. So far, from what I've seen, and as someone already eluded to, given T.J.'s pro experience so far, if he was so good, he shouldn't even be allowing us to have this debate.. period. I could very well agree with others that I wouldn't want either being the starter if it came down to it, but I've seen enough to know that's for sure with T.J. I'd rather take a flyer on someone who has yet to show their ceiling. For now, in the Case vs. T.J. discussion, my choice is Case.

ObsiWan
08-13-2013, 01:02 PM
What about the thousands of UDFA that are not in the league.

What about the thousands of folks who DID get drafted who didn't make their team?

It's like Kubiak is always saying, drafted high, drafted late, or not drafted at all, it's what you do on the practice field that gets you playing time.... at least as far as he's concerned.

ArTex
08-13-2013, 01:20 PM
Tj Yates: From North Carolina, been running "our" system for at least 4 years.

This is actually just Yates's 3rd year now, only ran the system for 2 years.

( If you count postseason as another "season", then Yates has been around 4 seasons :) )

The Pencil Neck
08-13-2013, 01:26 PM
This is actually just Yates's 3rd year now, only ran the system for 2 years.

( If you count postseason as another "season", then Yates has been around 4 seasons :) )

His college ran an offense based on our system but I'm not sure for how long but we know it's at least 2 years. So he's had from 4-7 years in our system, depending on how long the Tarheels have been running an offense based on ours.

HOU-TEX
08-13-2013, 01:37 PM
Doesn't really prove anything, but sounds about the way they've played between last year and so far this year. Especially Yates

James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN 1h
"They're both doing some good things and they're both doing some bone head things." - Kubiak on Yates and Keenum over 2 days w/out Schaub.

DocBar
08-13-2013, 08:33 PM
Doesn't really prove anything, but sounds about the way they've played between last year and so far this year. Especially YatesWouldn't you expect a 3rd player to do fewer bone head things and more good things than an UDFA from a spread offense that is the opposite of the system the Texans run? That's more of an indictment of Yates than a boost for Keenum.

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 09:06 PM
Wouldn't you expect a 3rd player to do fewer bone head things and more good things than an UDFA from a spread offense that is the opposite of the system the Texans run? That's more of an indictment of Yates than a boost for Keenum.

I know it's hard to believe, but I am not biased towards Tj... but he looked fine. The only thing he did that I didn't care for, was that sack. That was bone headed & there should be zero tolerance for crap like that.

But QBs come out too amped up all the time... that's usually why they throw the ball high (at least that's what I've heard). Or they come out out of sync, or cold, or whatever you want to call it. They have to work through that all the time (& I'll say the same for Keenum if he has that issue next week). It's a good thing, & something you want to know, to see Tj worked through it & turned in a pretty respectable game. He got in a rhythm & made some good throws.

The offense looked pretty much like Schaub was running it. & I know that's a bad thing for most of us here, but we average in he high 20s when Schaub is under center & low teens when Tj from 2011 is under center.

If either Tj or Case can run the offense like Schaub, it's a good thing & their play making ability is a plus.

Watch for Case to pull the ball down early & "make something happen" as fans, that's some good football. As the guy who drew up the plays, not so much. We're not going to be able to decide who will be our back up going into the season. The guy who drew up the plays will.

EllisUnit
08-13-2013, 09:11 PM
What about the thousands of UDFA that are not in the league.

What are the odds we all will win the lottery ? But a lot of us play it anyways ;)

DocBar
08-13-2013, 09:21 PM
I know it's hard to believe, but I am not biased towards Tj... but he looked fine. The only thing he did that I didn't care for, was that sack. That was bone headed & there should be zero tolerance for crap like that.

But QBs come out too amped up all the time... that's usually why they throw the ball high (at least that's what I've heard). Or they come out out of sync, or cold, or whatever you want to call it. They have to work through that all the time (& I'll say the same for Keenum if he has that issue next week). It's a good thing, & something you want to know, to see Tj worked through it & turned in a pretty respectable game. He got in a rhythm & made some good throws.

The offense looked pretty much like Schaub was running it. & I know that's a bad thing for most of us here, but we average in he high 20s when Schaub is under center & low teens when Tj from 2011 is under center.

If either Tj or Case can run the offense like Schaub, it's a good thing & their play making ability is a plus.

Watch for Case to pull the ball down early & "make something happen" as fans, that's some good football. As the guy who drew up the plays, not so much. We're not going to be able to decide who will be our back up going into the season. The guy who drew up the plays will.The good ones don't. Just sayin.....

The Pencil Neck
08-13-2013, 11:38 PM
The good ones don't. Just sayin.....

Favre used to. Eli does, some times. Romo.

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 05:08 AM
Favre used to. Eli does, some times. Romo.

Matt Schaub did for a whole season took him half a game to get his head right.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

PapaL
08-14-2013, 05:29 AM
It was a great example.

As good a QB that Tom Brady is today; he had to start somewhere.

It was quite humbling a start to be exact.

If you would rather take Doug Flutie as an example, I would be fine with it, too.
Flutie was nowhere as good as Keenum in college.

There, is that OK with you as far as comparison goes? :fishing:

How about Timmy Chang, U of Hawaii? The guy that held the records Case broke. 6'2" 207lbs. Also an UDFA. Came from a spread system. How'd he fair? That's a more likely comparison than Brady; drafted, from a running system, big time college.

PapaL
08-14-2013, 05:31 AM
What are the odds we all will win the lottery ? But a lot of us play it anyways ;)

In this case TJ has already won the lottery while is still playing scratch offs hahaha

Speedy
08-14-2013, 06:00 AM
How about Timmy Chang, U of Hawaii? The guy that held the records Case broke. 6'2" 207lbs. Also an UDFA. Came from a spread system. How'd he fair? That's a more likely comparison than Brady; drafted, from a running system, big time college.

How about the hundreds of QB's DRAFTED, a lot even in the 1st round that don't amount to a pile of crap? Nobody knows (not even the "experts") who can play in this league until they get on the field and do it.

deucetx
08-14-2013, 08:38 AM
Honestly all this focus on him being a UDFA is pointless. Would have mattered his rookie season but this is his second year and that means the team re-signed him. In other words, his draft status means little to nothing at this point. The team liked something they saw in him to bring him back again and giving him more reps now than previously. So he earned whatever he's getting right at this moment.

Height also means little if you don't go through your progressions to utilize that vision you have of the field. Yates has been inconsistent in this aspect thus far though improve as the game went on. Despite his height he had passes batted down for a reason. He tends to lock onto a target and do the stare down.

So folks should focus more on what these two brings to the table in their skillset and understanding of the system. In the end I just want the best person for the job in case Schaub goes down though in truth I doubt either would be called upon to 'lead' the team in a way that we rely on them heavily. You're more likely to see more ball control and pounding the rock.

Both had solid games and it's better to have two choices than none.

PapaL
08-14-2013, 08:47 AM
How about the hundreds of QB's DRAFTED, a lot even in the 1st round that don't amount to a pile of crap? Nobody knows (not even the "experts") who can play in this league until they get on the field and do it.

I've already said that. Along with the thousands of UDFA that havent amounted to crap.

You want a QB that is actually comparable, Timmy Chang is the guy.

HOU-TEX
08-14-2013, 08:54 AM
Wouldn't you expect a 3rd player to do fewer bone head things and more good things than an UDFA from a spread offense that is the opposite of the system the Texans run? That's more of an indictment of Yates than a boost for Keenum.

Which is why I added "Especially Yates" at the end

In the end, my point is, neither are going to be good enough to be Schaub's eventual replacement.

76Texan
08-14-2013, 09:14 AM
I've already said that. Along with the thousands of UDFA that havent amounted to crap.

You want a QB that is actually comparable, Timmy Chang is the guy.

If I have time, I'll look into this further.

For now, here's a quick comparison.

Keenum 19,217 passing yards on 2,229 attempts.
Chang 17,027 on 2,436.
Big difference.

Keenum 69.36 completion percentage.
Chang 57 per cent.
Another big difference.

Keenum's TD-INT ratio 155/46
Chang 117/80
Huge difference.

Keenum was a heck more accurate and efficient than Chang.
There's no comparison, really.

speedfreek
08-14-2013, 09:23 AM
The biggest plus that I see with Keenum is _exactly_ the largest
weakness I see with Schaub and Yates.

Keenum chose the largest stages to perform at the highest level.
He was amazing in games against ranked teams (in college) when
UH was a heavy underdog.

I can think of at least 3 games in particular where UH was a
double-digit dog and he threw excellent percentages and had
very few turnovers. .. Many times on the road no less..
(You can probably find his game against #5 Ok. St. in
Stillwater on youtube)

Stepping up and beating the big-dog was his modus operandi. And
that is 180 degrees out of phase with Schaub and Yates.

Two of the worst games I've ever seen them play were their
two divisional round playoff games. Schaub was _ATROCIOUS_
against the Patriots, and Yates was _DISGRACEFUL_ against
Baltimore. (and in both cases they were surrounded by a team
with similar talent as their competition)

Many times Keenum had to win with smaller, slower, and physically
overmatched teammates.

It's more than just the "IT" factor.

TJ

If I have time, I'll look into this further.

For now, here's a quick comparison.

Keenum 19,217 passing yards on 2,229 attempts.
Chang 17,027 on 2,436.
Big difference.

Keenum 69.36 completion percentage.
Chang 57 per cent.
Another big difference.

Keenum's TD-INT ratio 155/46
Chang 117/80
Huge difference.

Keenum was a heck more accurate and efficient than Chang.
There's no comparison, really.

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 09:29 AM
...though in truth I doubt either would be called upon to 'lead' the team in a way that we rely on them heavily. You're more likely to see more ball control and pounding the rock.


If that's the case (no pun intended), the Kubiak failed. If we go with a watered down system for either of these guys, Tj especially, he failed.

Schaub was running this system well his first season as starter. Carr ran the system with some success. Rosenfels ran it more or less competently.

If he's bringing these QBs in, working with them, teaching them.... but then don't trust them when the game is on the line... he failed.

76Texan
08-14-2013, 09:29 AM
Keenum netted 897 yards on the ground with 23 rushing TDs.
Chang netted a NEGATIVE 162 yards and 6 TDs.

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 09:31 AM
Keenum was a heck more accurate and efficient than Chang.
There's no comparison, really.

You're being obtuse.

Chang is a more accurate comparison that Tom Brady or Curt Warner.

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 09:32 AM
Keenum chose the largest stages to perform at the highest level.
He was amazing in games against ranked teams (in college) when
UH was a heavy underdog.

TJ

Kubiak said the same thing.....

TexansFTW
08-14-2013, 11:49 AM
I deleted my comment

JCTexan
08-14-2013, 12:01 PM
The biggest plus that I see with Keenum is _exactly_ the largest
weakness I see with Schaub and Yates.

Keenum chose the largest stages to perform at the highest level.
He was amazing in games against ranked teams (in college) when
UH was a heavy underdog.

I can think of at least 3 games in particular where UH was a
double-digit dog and he threw excellent percentages and had
very few turnovers. .. Many times on the road no less..
(You can probably find his game against #5 Ok. St. in
Stillwater on youtube)

Stepping up and beating the big-dog was his modus operandi. And
that is 180 degrees out of phase with Schaub and Yates.

Two of the worst games I've ever seen them play were their
two divisional round playoff games. Schaub was _ATROCIOUS_
against the Patriots, and Yates was _DISGRACEFUL_ against
Baltimore. (and in both cases they were surrounded by a team
with similar talent as their competition)

Many times Keenum had to win with smaller, slower, and physically
overmatched teammates.

It's more than just the "IT" factor.

TJ

You're comparing Yates and Schaub playing playoff caliber NFL teams to Keenum playing in college. There is a huge difference there.

legacy_gt
08-14-2013, 12:11 PM
love the fact that we have lots of threads and posts on keenum. it's a direct result to his continued success.

the pressure Case puts on TJ and Schaub is huge. Because if history repeats and Schaub can't deliver, and Case continues to work hard and keep getting better, people are going to root for putting Case in the future...maybe not this year, but Case's time will come.

There's a reason why Briles, Sumlin, Kubiak, and company think Case has something special.

You just don't shatter the NCAA's all time total passing yards, touchdowns, and completions and just call it a fluke because of his size and his spread offense he played in.

speedfreek
08-14-2013, 12:13 PM
No, read my comment again.

I said Keenum was able to take an inferior team and beat a superior
team on their home turf by amazing effort.

Yates and Schaub took an equivalent team and spit the bit
and produced losses when the bright lights were on and the
game really mattered.

The ability to "will" a team to win with leadership and on-field
performance is what I was getting at, and that does not differ
at any level: pros, college, pop warner

TJ

You're comparing Yates and Schaub playing playoff caliber NFL teams to Keenum playing in college. There is a huge difference there.

speedfreek
08-14-2013, 12:16 PM
Sumlin, Holgorsen, and Kingsbury arguably owe their jobs to Keenum.
UH owes it's stadium and new conference to Keenum.

Hopefully the guy can continue to translate that to the pros...

I remember what it was like watching UH stars Olajuwon and Drexler
win a championship for the Rockets.

If UH star Keenum helps the Texans win a championship it will be
just as crazy on Richmond (maybe moreso..) and history will have
repeated itself..

TJ

love the fact that we have lots of threads and posts on keenum. it's a direct result to his continued success.

the pressure Case puts on TJ and Schaub is huge. Because if history repeats and Schaub can't deliver, and Case continues to work hard and keep getting better, people are going to root for putting Case in the future...maybe not this year, but Case's time will come.

There's a reason why Briles, Sumlin, Kubiak, and company think Case has something special.

You just don't shatter the NCAA's all time total passing yards, touchdowns, and completions and just call it a fluke because of his size and his spread offense he played in.

The Pencil Neck
08-14-2013, 12:20 PM
You just don't shatter the NCAA's all time total passing yards, touchdowns, and completions and just call it a fluke because of his size and his spread offense he played in.

Actually, you kinda do.

Most of the QBs who have shattered records in college as thoroughly as Case shattered records don't translate to the NFL. Just look at Ware and Klingler or B.J. Symons or Colt Brennan or Harrell or Chang or even Tebow and Vince Young.

There's a reason why QBs like that aren't drafted as high anymore as QBs that work within a "normal" offense in college.

TexansFTW
08-14-2013, 12:31 PM
Actually, you kinda do.

Most of the QBs who have shattered records in college as thoroughly as Case shattered records don't translate to the NFL. Just look at Ware and Klingler or B.J. Symons or Colt Brennan or Harrell or Chang or even Tebow and Vince Young.

There's a reason why QBs like that aren't drafted as high anymore as QBs that work within a "normal" offense in college.

RG3

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 12:31 PM
You're comparing Yates and Schaub playing playoff caliber NFL teams to Keenum playing in college. There is a huge difference there.

Huge difference for sure.

One of the things I talked about the offense needing, was better pedigree. Some people expect to win everything, but then there are guys who achieved everything they thought they were capable of by being an NFL starter, or being voted to the Pro Bowl, or All-Pro.

It's my conjecture that most of the guys who have a burning desire to win, or at least expect to win, usually come out of the first two rounds. Those guys have normally come from huge programs that did really well. Not always.

We've got Matt Schaub from Virginia. A decent program. He won a bowl game & set many of Virginia's passing records. That's good.

Tj Yates came from UNC.... not really known for their QBs. They were in a down period during his tenure as starter, no bowl games, he does hold many of the schools passing records.

Case Keenum.... much smaller program, much smaller school. But he performed at the highest level possible. They put him on a stage & he answered the call every time. (mostly). He never won the Conf USA Championship, like Kolb, but it wasn't for his poor play. I think if Keenum is ever going to be our QB, he'll bring another level of "expecting to win" to the team.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/73/Keenum_with_crystal.JPG/220px-Keenum_with_crystal.JPG

JCTexan
08-14-2013, 12:34 PM
No, read my comment again.

I said Keenum was able to take an inferior team and beat a superior
team on their home turf by amazing effort.

Yates and Schaub took an equivalent team and spit the bit
and produced losses when the bright lights were on and the
game really mattered.

The ability to "will" a team to win with leadership and on-field
performance is what I was getting at, and that does not differ
at any level: pros, college, pop warner

TJ

Comparing Keenum's game against Oklahoma State to Schaub or Yates in the playoffs is weak. Regardless of BCS rankings, Oklahoma State had a terrible defense and they played in a ton of high scoring games. You're not really comparing apples to apples here.

The Pencil Neck
08-14-2013, 12:38 PM
RG3

A couple of things about that:

1) I said "most" not all.
2) RG3 has played 1 year. After Vince Young played 1 year, a lot of people were ready to anoint him as the GOAT, too. BUT. QBs like that have to have the support of their coach and offensive coordinator. The coaches have to be willing to create an offense just for that one guy... like Fox did with Tebow. But coaches don't like to do that and most of them won't do it for long unless they have to. I'm not saying that RG3 can't transition to a more normal QB offense but unless he does, he's probably not going to have that long of a career.

JCTexan
08-14-2013, 12:40 PM
Case Keenum.... much smaller program, much smaller school. But he performed at the highest level possible. They put him on a stage & he answered the call every time. (mostly). He never won the Conf USA Championship, like Kolb, but it wasn't for his poor play. I think if Keenum is ever going to be our QB, he'll bring another level of "expecting to win" to the team.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/73/Keenum_with_crystal.JPG/220px-Keenum_with_crystal.JPG

Highest level of what? College? He wasn't consistently beating SEC or Big 12 teams in college.

I have nothing against Keenum, but I'm sure as hell not anointing him because he set records in Conference USA.

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 12:43 PM
A couple of things about that:

1) I said "most" not all.
2) RG3 has played 1 year. After Vince Young played 1 year, a lot of people were ready to anoint him as the GOAT, too. BUT. QBs like that have to have the support of their coach and offensive coordinator. The coaches have to be willing to create an offense just for that one guy... like Fox did with Tebow. But coaches don't like to do that and most of them won't do it for long unless they have to. I'm not saying that RG3 can't transition to a more normal QB offense but unless he does, he's probably not going to have that long of a career.


& you've got to wonder if that's what Shanahan has in mind. Picking Cousins in the 4th, then throwing RG3 out there with that knee....

If we don't see Shanahan working to mold Griffin into a more traditional QB, you gotta start wondering just how dastardly is that Shanahan.

NCTexan
08-14-2013, 12:44 PM
Tj Yates came from UNC.... not really known for their QBs. They were in a down period during his tenure as starter, no bowl games, he does hold many of the schools passing records.


False. Beast Tennessee in 2010. 30-27 in overtime.

Yates showed the smarts in that game to spike the ball with 1 second left on the clock in regulation, take the penalty, and let his team kick a field goal to get into overtime with an eventual win.

Obviously I favor TJ over Case because of my school affiliation, but I want whoever gives the Texans the best chance to win out. I feel like too many people are making these statements when there are still 3 preseason games left.

Also, TJ almost beat LSU at the beginning of 2010, except his TE dropped two passes in the end zone.

Also, keep an eye on Bryn Renner this year. He looks good and could be a solid prospect.

edit: Not that this disputes your point. Just my best memory of TJ in college. It was complete pandemonium at the watching party I was at.

legacy_gt
08-14-2013, 12:45 PM
Actually, you kinda do.


actually you can't call Case a fluke until he plays actual games in the NFL.

JCTexan
08-14-2013, 12:48 PM
but I want whoever gives the Texans the best chance to win out.


This is the way I feel. I don't care who wins the #2 QB battle as long as it's the 2nd best QB on the roster. Nothing Yates or Keenum did in college matters now.

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 12:51 PM
Highest level of what? College? He wasn't consistently beating SEC or Big 12 teams in college.

I have nothing against Keenum, but I'm sure as hell not anointing him because he set records in Conference USA.

If you read my other posts, you'll see I'm the last person who would suggest annointing Case Keenum anything.

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 12:56 PM
False. Beast Tennessee in 2010. 30-27 in overtime.


Thanks....... I totally overlooked the 2010 Music City Bowl (damned Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.J._Yates)).


Obviously I favor TJ over Case because of my school affiliation, but I want whoever gives the Texans the best chance to win out. I feel like too many people are making these statements when there are still 3 preseason games left.


I still don't think there's a competition. Kubiak isn't that kind. Tj will be the backup.

edit: Not that this disputes your point. Just my best memory of TJ in college. It was complete pandemonium at the watching party I was at.

Cool.

legacy_gt
08-14-2013, 01:00 PM
Thanks....... I totally overlooked the 2010 Music City Bowl (damned Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.J._Yates)).



I still don't think there's a competition. Kubiak isn't that kind. Tj will be the backup.



Cool.

so all the talk Kubiak has said about the competition between Case and Tj is all false and TJ is already 2nd QB is a done deal regardless?

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 01:01 PM
so all the talk Kubiak has said about the competition between Case and Tj is all false and TJ is already 2nd QB is a done deal regardless?

Yes.

His goal is to get Keenum as ready as possible in case we need him.

JCTexan
08-14-2013, 01:04 PM
If you read my other posts, you'll see I'm the last person who would suggest annointing Case Keenum anything.

I was responding to what you said, not necessarily you: Sometimes when I quote someone it's to feed off of what they wrote. You were the 2nd person to say that Keenum performed at the highest level. I decided to quote you instead of the first guy to pose my question.

legacy_gt
08-14-2013, 01:06 PM
Yes.

His goal is to get Keenum as ready as possible in case we need him.

Kubiak is not one to mislead the fans either. I believe there truly is a competition between Case and Tj and these pre-season games will determine it although I do believe Case has to be over the top to win the position.

speedfreek
08-14-2013, 01:10 PM
Actually, OK state is a fantastic comparison. In fact, it is analagous
to Schaub v. Patriots.

In 2008 an Ok. St. team that was not as good as the 2009 Ok. St.
team defeated a Keenum led Houston team 56-37. A pretty resounding
loss.

The very next year, and in stillwater, Keenum was able to turn the
table and pull a massive upset with essentially the same team against
a much more highly-regarded #5 Ok. St. team that had both
Dez Bryant and Kendall Hunter

In fact Ok St. had several players drafted that year and the next:
Bryant, Hunter, Robinson, Okung, Cox. While the Keenum houston team
had exactly 1 -- Onobun who was a fieldgoal block specialist and is
no longer in the league.

You can argue that Ok. St. was overrated, but even after losing
Kendal Hunter to injury and Dez Bryant to NCAA suspension they
still finished #19 in the final BCS while Houston was unranked.

It is highly illustrative of how Keenum could lift a less talented team -
Keeping in mind that 2009 was only the second season Keenum had
under the new offense installed by Sumlin and Holgorsen (yes,
he made a leap in his second year in college just as he has done
with the Texans..)

When Schaub made the statement that you have to "beat the best
to be the best" and then became totally anemic vs. Rodgers/Packers
and Brady/Patriots my gut told me that Matt can let the big stage
get into his head and negatively affect his play.

The second game against Brady went exactly the same way.
After throwing his first pick at midfield the game just got away.
Watching him I just got the feeling that he couldn't get his head
back in the game.

Ok. St. actually came back in the game against Keenum but he didn't
break. He moved the team downfield when he needed to and came
away with a win. The same is true for several other games he had
against ranked teams.

He was particularly deadly to ranked teams in his own conference.
(Tulsa and ECU come to mind). Again he was an underdog and came
away with wins.

This is very un-Schaub/Yates-esqu. I still for the life of me can't
figure out why we can't beat Indy at Indy. Both of our last two
attempts disgust me. 2-14 for the colts, and one was against Yates.
It still stings when I hear it.

TJ

Comparing Keenum's game against Oklahoma State to Schaub or Yates in the playoffs is weak. Regardless of BCS rankings, Oklahoma State had a terrible defense and they played in a ton of high scoring games. You're not really comparing apples to apples here.

HJam72
08-14-2013, 01:19 PM
Both times we've beaten Indy there has a been an obvious difference in strategy from basically if not all the other times we lost. Have we ever tried to play it that way IN Indy? Not with Foster on the roster we haven't. We now have another bona-fide FB and it's past time to march into Indy and just ram it down their throats.

Once every 10 minutes of game time or so, their D can take a 30 second break while Luck gets re-aquainted with Watt. :strangle:

speedfreek
08-14-2013, 01:23 PM
Keenum was:

2-1 against B12
1-0 against SEC
1-0 against B10
1-1 against P12

Winning or split records in each case.

He can't schedule teams to play against himself.

And if the SEC/B12 brewed the finest QB's by default
Jamarcus and VY would have been competing in the
superbowl last year -- Not Flacco (Div I-AA) or
Kapernic (Mtn. West)

TJ


Highest level of what? College? He wasn't consistently beating SEC or Big 12 teams in college.

I have nothing against Keenum, but I'm sure as hell not anointing him because he set records in Conference USA.

The Pencil Neck
08-14-2013, 01:37 PM
actually you can't call Case a fluke until he plays actual games in the NFL.

You said that because he shattered a whole bunch of NCAA records, you can't call him a fluke because of his offense and size. A lot of guys have shattered NCAA records and then totally crapped out in the NFL. A lot of those guys racked up those records because of the system they were in. Case was in that kind of a system.

A lot of teams didn't want to waste a draft pick on him because of the history of QBs similar to him.

That doesn't mean that Case can't prove all those guys wrong. I really hope he does. I want Case to come in and be a combo of Kurt Warner and Joe Montana. I want case to be a Tom Brady who keeps winning Super Bowls instead of only winning a few early on in his career.

But his college career does not make him a legitimate prospect to be an NFL quarterback. He was not ready for the NFL last year, judging by his pre-season performance. After 1 pre-season game, he looks like he could be an NFL QB. He looked poised and in control. But at this point, he still has to prove himself.

76Texan
08-14-2013, 01:43 PM
Actually, you kinda do.

Most of the QBs who have shattered records in college as thoroughly as Case shattered records don't translate to the NFL. Just look at Ware and Klingler or B.J. Symons or Colt Brennan or Harrell or Chang or even Tebow and Vince Young.

There's a reason why QBs like that aren't drafted as high anymore as QBs that work within a "normal" offense in college.

I disagree; many teams NFL teams now run the spread, or the zone read (which is a variation of the spread.) For at least a couple of years, Keenum's offense included a TE or two.

Weeden played in a version of the spread.
Gabbert played in a pure spread (OK, he sucked, but he got drafted high.)

I'm sure if I look for a little while, I can find QBs that ran the spread in college that have been drafted in the first three rounds recently.

E J Manuel is one (not a pure spread); Geno Smith is another (pure spread).

PapaL
08-14-2013, 01:47 PM
If I have time, I'll look into this further.

For now, here's a quick comparison.

Keenum 19,217 passing yards on 2,229 attempts.
Chang 17,027 on 2,436.
Big difference.

Keenum 69.36 completion percentage.
Chang 57 per cent.
Another big difference.

Keenum's TD-INT ratio 155/46
Chang 117/80
Huge difference.

Keenum was a heck more accurate and efficient than Chang.
There's no comparison, really.

And the Tom Brady comparison was some how closer than the comparison to guy that was the previous record holder?

Brady:
4982 yards on 665 attempts. 61.5% comp. 31 TD 19 INT
95 rush attempts for -153 yards.


Obviously someone saw something in those 665 attempts for Brady that was not seen in the combined 4665 attempts for the top two all time passing yard leaders.

76Texan
08-14-2013, 01:50 PM
TPN, look at teams like the Panthers and the Skins.

They adapted their offense to Newton and RG III.

Remember the knock about Newton; how he never play under center in college (but I counted at least 17 plays that he was under center.)

Case played under center more than that in his Freshman year, but the Cougars eventually went away from that; they still use Keenum under center occasionally in his last two years, similar to how Newton was used or RG III was used.

If Kubiak had decided to mimic Shannahan, Keenum would be the guy who is most comfortable in that system, more so than Schaub or Yates.

PapaL
08-14-2013, 01:51 PM
Most of the QBs who have shattered records in college as thoroughly as Case shattered records don't translate to the NFL. Just look at Ware and Klingler or B.J. Symons or Colt Brennan or Harrell or Chang or even Tebow and Vince Young.

There's a reason why QBs like that aren't drafted as high anymore as QBs that work within a "normal" offense in college.

I disagree; many teams NFL teams now run the spread, or the zone read (which is a variation of the spread.) For at least a couple of years, Keenum's offense included a TE or two.


How have any of the all time NCAA passers fared in the NFL?

1. Case Keenum* 19217 2007 2011 Houston
2. Timmy Chang* 17072 2000 2004 Hawaii
3. Landry Jones* 16646 2009 2012 Oklahoma
4. Graham Harrell* 15793 2005 2008 Texas Tech
5. Ty Detmer 15031 1988 1991 Brigham Young
6. Kellen Moore* 14667 2008 2011 Boise State
7. Colt Brennan* 14193 2005 2007 Hawaii
8. Philip Rivers* 13484 2000 2003 North Carolina State
9. Colt McCoy* 13253 2006 2009 Texas
10. Kevin Kolb* 12964 2003 2006 Houston
11. Dan Lefevour* 12905 2006 2009 Central Michigan
12. Tim Rattay 12746 1997 1999 Louisiana Tech
13. Ryan Lindley* 12690 2008 2011 San Diego State
14. Luke McCown 12666 2000 2003 Louisiana Tech
15. Chris Redman 12541 1996 1999 Louisville

An asterisk (*) after a player's name indicates bowl stats are included.

Source: http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/pass-yds-player-career.html

76Texan
08-14-2013, 01:56 PM
And the Tom Brady comparison was some how closer than the comparison to guy that was the previous record holder?

Brady:
4982 yards on 665 attempts. 61.5% comp. 31 TD 19 INT
95 rush attempts for -153 yards.


Obviously someone saw something in those 665 attempts for Brady that was not seen in the combined 4665 attempts for the top two all time passing yard leaders.

Papal, there was no comparison made between Brady and Keenum.
I said I brought it up as an example of how a young QB may not be all that in his first few years in the NFL.

Similarly, a young CB like KJax, may not look good when you throw him into the fire right off the bat; but it doesn't mean that he doesn't have the ability to become a good player.

Heck, if you can develop an UDFA like Arian Foster into a good player, your team save a bunch of money for awhile; money that can be put into good use fortifying other positions on the team.

speedfreek
08-14-2013, 01:58 PM
I could easily make an argument that if Kubiak incorporated some of
the air-raid, hurry-up, stuff Keenum ran in college that the Texans
would be devastating in a 2-minute drill.

(or catching up if they get behind due to turnovers, etc.)

After all, Keenum was the greatest-ever QB statistically when running
that type of offense.

If Shanahan can do it for RGIII, and Harbaugh can do it for Kaepernic,
and even two years ago with Tebow in Denver. (Not that I am a Tebow
fan).

If you game plan for your players' strengths I can't see how you don't
get better.

TJ

TPN, look at teams like the Panthers and the Skins.

They adapted their offense to Newton and RG III.

Remember the knock about Newton; how he never play under center in college (but I counted at least 17 plays that he was under center.)

Case played under center more than that in his Freshman year, but the Cougars eventually went away from that; they still use Keenum under center occasionally in his last two years, similar to how Newton was used or RG III was used.

If Kubiak had decided to mimic Shannahan, Keenum would be the guy who is most comfortable in that system, more so than Schaub or Yates.

76Texan
08-14-2013, 02:01 PM
How have any of the all time NCAA passers fared in the NFL?

1. Case Keenum* 19217 2007 2011 Houston
2. Timmy Chang* 17072 2000 2004 Hawaii
3. Landry Jones* 16646 2009 2012 Oklahoma
4. Graham Harrell* 15793 2005 2008 Texas Tech
5. Ty Detmer 15031 1988 1991 Brigham Young
6. Kellen Moore* 14667 2008 2011 Boise State
7. Colt Brennan* 14193 2005 2007 Hawaii
8. Philip Rivers* 13484 2000 2003 North Carolina State
9. Colt McCoy* 13253 2006 2009 Texas
10. Kevin Kolb* 12964 2003 2006 Houston
11. Dan Lefevour* 12905 2006 2009 Central Michigan
12. Tim Rattay 12746 1997 1999 Louisiana Tech
13. Ryan Lindley* 12690 2008 2011 San Diego State
14. Luke McCown 12666 2000 2003 Louisiana Tech
15. Chris Redman 12541 1996 1999 Louisville

An asterisk (*) after a player's name indicates bowl stats are included.

Source: http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/pass-yds-player-career.html

If your point is that a succesful college career doesn't automatically equate a succesful NFL career, I get it. I have never said otherwise.

Stats mean nothing.
You need to watch how they play, what they have to work with, the caliber of the opponents.

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 02:19 PM
Kubiak is not one to mislead the fans either.

Yeah... we're obviously talking about two totally different people.

PapaL
08-14-2013, 02:36 PM
Papal, there was no comparison made between Brady and Keenum.
I said I brought it up as an example of how a young QB may not be all that in his first few years in the NFL.

Similarly, a young CB like KJax, may not look good when you throw him into the fire right off the bat; but it doesn't mean that he doesn't have the ability to become a good player.

Heck, if you can develop an UDFA like Arian Foster into a good player, your team save a bunch of money for awhile; money that can be put into good use fortifying other positions on the team.

That I can concur with! :bender:

legacy_gt
08-14-2013, 02:54 PM
You said that because he shattered a whole bunch of NCAA records, you can't call him a fluke because of his offense and size. A lot of guys have shattered NCAA records and then totally crapped out in the NFL. A lot of those guys racked up those records because of the system they were in. Case was in that kind of a system.

A lot of teams didn't want to waste a draft pick on him because of the history of QBs similar to him.

That doesn't mean that Case can't prove all those guys wrong. I really hope he does. I want Case to come in and be a combo of Kurt Warner and Joe Montana. I want case to be a Tom Brady who keeps winning Super Bowls instead of only winning a few early on in his career.

But his college career does not make him a legitimate prospect to be an NFL quarterback. He was not ready for the NFL last year, judging by his pre-season performance. After 1 pre-season game, he looks like he could be an NFL QB. He looked poised and in control. But at this point, he still has to prove himself.

you can't just call keenum a fluke just because he shattered records on a C-USA team and his size and didn't get drafted. nobody can at this point because he hasn't played an nfl game. a fluke would be a jamarcus russel, tim couch, or troy smith. Keenum hasn't gotten to that point where he's had any chance to prove anything

NCTexan
08-14-2013, 03:00 PM
you can't just call keenum a fluke just because he shattered records on a C-USA team and his size and didn't get drafted. nobody can at this point because he hasn't played an nfl game.

And you can't say he's a great NFL QB, because he hasn't played an NFL game.

I'm not anti-Case, but damn the guy gets a lot of love here.

legacy_gt
08-14-2013, 03:03 PM
And you can't say he's a great NFL QB, because he hasn't played an NFL game.

I'm not anti-Case, but damn the guy gets a lot of love here.

who said he was an nfl great qb? not me. matter of fact, I don't mind at all if he's 3rd. It took Schaub 3 years to start.

HOU-TEX
08-14-2013, 03:06 PM
And you can't say he's a great NFL QB, because he hasn't played an NFL game.

I'm not anti-Case, but damn the guy gets a lot of love here.

I know, right!

Which is fine to a certain extent. The one's saying he's actually competing against Schaub and might/will be his eventual replacement take it to a different level.

But hey, at least we aren't having a QB situation like the Jets. lol

The Pencil Neck
08-14-2013, 03:06 PM
TPN, look at teams like the Panthers and the Skins.

They adapted their offense to Newton and RG III.

Remember the knock about Newton; how he never play under center in college (but I counted at least 17 plays that he was under center.)

Case played under center more than that in his Freshman year, but the Cougars eventually went away from that; they still use Keenum under center occasionally in his last two years, similar to how Newton was used or RG III was used.

If Kubiak had decided to mimic Shannahan, Keenum would be the guy who is most comfortable in that system, more so than Schaub or Yates.

Look at what I originally said.

Most of those guys IN THE PAST who came into the NFL failed. Most of them failed because they needed to have the offense tailored to what it was they could do. MOST OCs aren't going to do that.

In the past couple of years, we've had a few instances of coaches changing their offenses to accommodate some of these system QBs: RGIII, Cam, Tebow. But most OCs are not going to do that OR if they do, they're going to try to revert back to the offense they want as soon as they get that QB up to speed.

We have yet to see any of those system guys hae a long and successful career in the NFL. There's no way I expect Kubiak to shift to that sort of system. He doesn't need to. For CASE to be successful, he has to become the perfect system QB for KUBIAK's system.

I think it's possible that he does but it's too early to say that he has. Let's let him play a few more games.

legacy_gt
08-14-2013, 03:08 PM
Look at what I originally said.

Most of those guys IN THE PAST who came into the NFL failed. Most of them failed because they needed to have the offense tailored to what it was they could do. MOST OCs aren't going to do that.

In the past couple of years, we've had a few instances of coaches changing their offenses to accommodate some of these system QBs: RGIII, Cam, Tebow. But most OCs are not going to do that OR if they do, they're going to try to revert back to the offense they want as soon as they get that QB up to speed.

We have yet to see any of those system guys hae a long and successful career in the NFL. There's no way I expect Kubiak to shift to that sort of system. He doesn't need to. For CASE to be successful, he has to become the perfect system QB for KUBIAK's system.

I think it's possible that he does but it's too early to say that he has. Let's let him play a few more games.

I agree.

legacy_gt
08-14-2013, 03:10 PM
I know, right!

Which is fine to a certain extent. The one's saying he's actually competing against Schaub and might/will be his eventual replacement take it to a different level.

But hey, at least we aren't having a QB situation like the Jets. lol

Schaub's the man period, regardless of what anyone thinks.

Keenum brings some fun because he's had success and is the young hard working guy. It's all good for the team.

The Pencil Neck
08-14-2013, 03:10 PM
you can't just call keenum a fluke just because he shattered records on a C-USA team and his size and didn't get drafted. nobody can at this point because he hasn't played an nfl game. a fluke would be a jamarcus russel, tim couch, or troy smith. Keenum hasn't gotten to that point where he's had any chance to prove anything

You're the one who said that the fact that he set such records MEANT something. It doesn't. It doesn't mean he can make it in the NFL.

A lot of QBs have put up great numbers in college in failed.

To be a fluke, Case has to prove that he's not one of those guys. He has to prove that he's not Colt Brennan.

I'm not one of the guys saying that Case can't do that. But he hasn't done it, yet. Until he does it, I'll be rooting for him but I'm not expecting him to be a great QB because of those collegiate performances.

legacy_gt
08-14-2013, 03:17 PM
You're the one who said that the fact that he set such records MEANT something. It doesn't. It doesn't mean he can make it in the NFL.

A lot of QBs have put up great numbers in college in failed.

To be a fluke, Case has to prove that he's not one of those guys. He has to prove that he's not Colt Brennan.

I'm not one of the guys saying that Case can't do that. But he hasn't done it, yet. Until he does it, I'll be rooting for him but I'm not expecting him to be a great QB because of those collegiate performances.

yeah it means something. doesn't mean it will transfer to the nfl. but to call him a fluke (like what some people say) at this point isn't fair.

JCTexan
08-14-2013, 03:26 PM
Keenum was:

2-1 against B12
1-0 against SEC
1-0 against B10
1-1 against P12

Winning or split records in each case.

TJ

So Keenum played 3 games against the Big 12, 1 against the SEC, 1 against the Big 10 and two against the Pac 12 in his five years with UH? I'll stick with what I said:

He wasn't consistently beating SEC or Big 12 teams in college.

And if the SEC/B12 brewed the finest QB's by default
Jamarcus and VY would have been competing in the
superbowl last year -- Not Flacco (Div I-AA) or
Kapernic (Mtn. West)

I wasn't arguing that those Conferences had the finest QB play, but they are the highest level of collegiate football.

NCTexan
08-14-2013, 03:27 PM
who said he was an nfl great qb? not me. matter of fact, I don't mind at all if he's 3rd. It took Schaub 3 years to start.

Some people on here are already anointing him Schaub's replacement.
It wasn't directly in response to you, more just playing off your post.

I know, right!

Which is fine to a certain extent. The one's saying he's actually competing against Schaub and might/will be his eventual replacement take it to a different level.

But hey, at least we aren't having a QB situation like the Jets. lol

100% agree. At least people here are getting worked up over the backup spot and we're not looking for a solid starting QB.

b0ng
08-14-2013, 03:34 PM
The biggest plus that I see with Keenum is _exactly_ the largest
weakness I see with Schaub and Yates.

Keenum chose the largest stages to perform at the highest level.
He was amazing in games against ranked teams (in college) when
UH was a heavy underdog.

I can think of at least 3 games in particular where UH was a
double-digit dog and he threw excellent percentages and had
very few turnovers. .. Many times on the road no less..
(You can probably find his game against #5 Ok. St. in
Stillwater on youtube)
TJ

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=313370248

thitch
08-14-2013, 03:49 PM
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=313370248

I think that is the only game Keenum lost in Houston as the starter.

speedfreek
08-14-2013, 04:15 PM
Watch the game and you can judge if he was the primary
reason for the loss (punt block return for TD, etc.)

Also, I'm guessing Kubiak isn't going to tell his team that he's
leaving to coach another team during the half-time of the
AFC championship game...

Case did follow that up by beating Penn St. (a higher ranked and
regarded team than So Miss) two weeks later in the bowl game
while having a completely different head coach install a game plan..

TJ

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=313370248

b0ng
08-14-2013, 04:26 PM
Watch the game and you can judge if he was the primary
reason for the loss (punt block return for TD, etc.)

Also, I'm guessing Kubiak isn't going to tell his team that he's
leaving to coach another team during the half-time of the
AFC championship game...

Case did follow that up by beating Penn St. (a higher ranked and
regarded team than So Miss) two weeks later in the bowl game
while having a completely different head coach install a game plan..

TJ

Penn State was certainly not dealing with it's own "issues" at the time (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/12/12703724-freeh-timeline-illustrates-penn-states-actions-in-sandusky-case?lite).

Look I like Keenum, but to say that he does great in all of the big games is a tad bit erroneous.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=293390151

speedfreek
08-14-2013, 04:45 PM
You truly can't win them all, but this loss wasn't on him..
(or even mostly on him).

Clutch receivers dropped passes early, special teams failures,
Sumlin's coaching escapades, all served to contribute.

The only "big game" that I can point to that was all on
Keenum was the second Armed Forces bowl in 2009.

But in terms of "Clutchness" between Yates, Schaub and Keenum
-- it's not even close when "the big game" is what you're
looking at..

TJ

Penn State was certainly not dealing with it's own "issues" at the time (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/12/12703724-freeh-timeline-illustrates-penn-states-actions-in-sandusky-case?lite).

Look I like Keenum, but to say that he does great in all of the big games is a tad bit erroneous.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=293390151

legacy_gt
08-14-2013, 05:26 PM
Some people on here are already anointing him Schaub's replacement.
It wasn't directly in response to you, more just playing off your post.


yeah, def case and tj have a long way to go to be starters. but there's a chance that schaub goes down and we have 2 capable qb's to take over.

76Texan
08-14-2013, 06:04 PM
I don't know if it means anything that I voted "may the best man win".

The cream will rise to the top.

PapaL
08-14-2013, 08:08 PM
I don't know if it means anything that I voted "may the best man win".

The cream will rise to the top.

That's my theory too. I have no loyalty other than what's best for the franchise. Don't want to go through the HWSNBN years again.

TejasTom
08-14-2013, 08:57 PM
Some people on here are already anointing him Schaub's replacement...

Not just on here.

John McClain has been saying for weeks that Kubaik is grooming Keenum as Schaub's replacement. I don't think he's getting that from the short order cook at The Waffle House.

infantrycak
08-14-2013, 09:01 PM
Not just on here.

John McClain has been saying for weeks that Kubaik is grooming Keenum as Schaub's replacement. I don't think he's getting that from the short order cook at The Waffle House.

Given that the short order cook is John's best contact to the Texans at this point, yeah he probably is getting it from him.

Showtime100
08-14-2013, 09:02 PM
Not just on here.

John McClain has been saying for weeks that Kubaik is grooming Keenum as Schaub's replacement. I don't think he's getting that from the short order cook at The Waffle House.

I'm a huge Cougar fan, but we're talking Texans here. If this is true I'm not a happy camper. I don't see either as the heir the top spot, ever.

thunderkyss
08-15-2013, 02:28 AM
We have yet to see any of those system guys hae a long and successful career in the NFL. There's no way I expect Kubiak to shift to that sort of system. He doesn't need to. For CASE to be successful, he has to become the perfect system QB for KUBIAK's system.

I think it's possible that he does but it's too early to say that he has. Let's let him play a few more games.

Andy Reid an a spread style offense with McNabb for a long time. I honestly don't know why more teams haven't done it.

thunderkyss
08-15-2013, 02:32 AM
So Keenum played 3 games against the Big 12, 1 against the SEC, 1 against the Big 10 and two against the Pac 12 in his five years with UH? I'll stick with what I said:


.

Still I wonder what's the difference between Case & guys like David Carr, or Andew Luck.

You'd think McElroy would be setting the league on fire.

Vance87
08-15-2013, 02:51 AM
Still I wonder what's the difference between Case & guys like David Carr, or Andew Luck.

You'd think McElroy would be setting the league on fire.

Hard work...intelligence...talent.

thunderkyss
08-15-2013, 06:07 AM
Hard work...intelligence...talent.

Car & Luck work harder, are more intelligent, & have more talent than Case & McElroy?

I'm not buying it.

speedfreek
08-15-2013, 08:45 AM
Let me show how irrelevant your entire proposition is about
"tough competition"

Here is Virginia's performance at the time when Matt Schaub
played.

SEC 1-2
B12 0-0
P12 0-0
B10 1-2


Here's NC and T.J.'s output

SEC 1-2
B12 0-0
P12 0-0
B10 0-0
CUSA 2-1

Including powerhouse Div-1AA/Div-2 schools
james madison, william & mary, the citadel,
georgia southern, mcneese state

The only D1 opponent that I could find that
superbowl champ Joe Flacco played against was
Navy..

Like I said before, players don't set the schedule..

TJ

So Keenum played 3 games against the Big 12, 1 against the SEC, 1 against the Big 10 and two against the Pac 12 in his five years with UH? I'll stick with what I said:





I wasn't arguing that those Conferences had the finest QB play, but they are the highest level of collegiate football.

76Texan
08-15-2013, 10:28 AM
Keenum played against many tier one teams than had been mentioned here in this thread. Overall, has had done quite well, if not very well.

I've already noted that if you go back and take ALL the QBs that were drafted the last several years, when they had a common opponent with Keenum (in the same year), Keenum play was on par or better than ALL of them, bar none.

If those guys can play in the NFL, so can Case.
You can call one or two games a fluke, but not a dozen game.

JCTexan
08-15-2013, 10:34 AM
Let me show how irrelevant your entire proposition is about
"tough competition"

Here is Virginia's performance at the time when Matt Schaub
played.

SEC 1-2
B12 0-0
P12 0-0
B10 1-2


Here's NC and T.J.'s output

SEC 1-2
B12 0-0
P12 0-0
B10 0-0
CUSA 2-1

Including powerhouse Div-1AA/Div-2 schools
james madison, william & mary, the citadel,
georgia southern, mcneese state

The only D1 opponent that I could find that
superbowl champ Joe Flacco played against was
Navy..

Like I said before, players don't set the schedule..

TJ

Irrelevant? lol I never said it was relevant to how good of a QB Keenum will become. But I wasn't saying Keenum performed on the biggest stage or at the highest level either like you did. Conference USA isn't the highest level of collegiate football.

The biggest plus that I see with Keenum is _exactly_ the largest
weakness I see with Schaub and Yates.

Keenum chose the largest stages to perform at the highest level.

76Texan
08-15-2013, 11:47 AM
Exhibit number one.

Keenum vs Oregon week 1, 2007

Oregon rose as high as number 2 in the poll before an ACL shelved Dennis Dixon and the Ducks' season.
Their offense was potent with the dual threat of Dixon and Jonanthan Stewart (remember that guy), besides TE Ed Dickson.
Their D were loaded with players that eventually got drafted and played in the NFL; for example, Ladarius Byrd, Patrick Chung, Walter Thurmond III, Will Tuikafu, T J Ward.

It was Keenum's first career game and he was in a platoon with Blake Joseph.
He was staring at a 0-14 hole when he entered the game, and managed to pull the Cougars back to a 17-17 tie, then a 20-20 tie.
The Cougars almost took the lead when Keenum threw this interception:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLG5yzh2kRc

I'm not sure I would call it a bad throw; the pass was just off.
It's also possible that the receiver didn't quite run his route properly.

The Ducks marched the field and never looked back.

The two teams traded TDs afterward, with the Ducks leading by 7 (34-27) before Dixon took the ball and ran for an 80-yd TD for a 14 point margin.

A drop by a receiver stopped the Cougars' next time; and then Joseph came back into the game. The final score was 48-27, Oregon.

Still, while Keenum was in there, the Cougars were neck to neck with the Ducks (27-27) with an inferior team on both sides of the ball.

And it was his first college game, at Oregon, no less.
That's a big stage, my friends!

PapaL
08-15-2013, 12:14 PM
Hope no one takes offense; who gives a crap what they did against college defenses?

It's almost like Cowboys fans talking about 20+ yr old championships.

JCTexan
08-15-2013, 12:21 PM
Exhibit number one.

Keenum vs Oregon week 1, 2007

Oregon rose as high as number 2 in the poll before an ACL shelved Dennis Dixon and the Ducks' season.
Their offense was potent with the dual threat of Dixon and Jonanthan Stewart (remember that guy), besides TE Ed Dickson.
Their D were loaded with players that eventually got drafted and played in the NFL; for example, Ladarius Byrd, Patrick Chung, Walter Thurmond III, Will Tuikafu, T J Ward.

It was Keenum's first career game and he was in a platoon with Blake Joseph.
He was staring at a 0-14 hole when he entered the game, and managed to pull the Cougars back to a 17-17 tie, then a 20-20 tie.
The Cougars almost took the lead when Keenum threw this interception:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLG5yzh2kRc

I'm not sure I would call it a bad throw; the pass was just off.
It's also possible that the receiver didn't quite run his route properly.

The Ducks marched the field and never looked back.

The two teams traded TDs afterward, with the Ducks leading by 7 (34-27) before Dixon took the ball and ran for an 80-yd TD for a 14 point margin.

A drop by a receiver stopped the Cougars' next time; and then Joseph came back into the game. The final score was 48-27, Oregon.

Still, while Keenum was in there, the Cougars were neck to neck with the Ducks (27-27) with an inferior team on both sides of the ball.

And it was his first college game, at Oregon, no less.
That's a big stage, my friends!

Maybe I'm not getting my point across. I don't care what Keenum did against Oregon or Oklahoma State while he was at the University of Houston, but I think comparing those games against Yates or Schaub in the playoffs is rather weak (wasn't your argument, but another poster said it). The Patriots & Ravens have better defenses than either Oregon or Oklahoma State, so it's not comparing apples to apples.

speedfreek
08-15-2013, 12:28 PM
You are not comprehending my point. (and I'm truly running out of
ways to try to explain it to you..)

I didn't say that Keenum played the national champions every week.
What I was trying to communicate to you was that when the game
was big, really mattered, or the opponent was a heavy favorite, Keenum performed in almost all instances.

This is not the case with Schaub and Yates.

I don't know if I can put it any more simply for you to understand.

Just because someone didn't play a top 5 team every week doesn't
mean they can't be a "clutch" person.

That's why I listed Flacco as an example.

If we could magically make Keenum, Yates, and Schaub all 24
year old rookies and only had their college track record to stand on
my money would be on Keenum.

Give the guy as much time in a pro-style offense as Schaub has
had and then we can evaluate whether he is a superstar or not.

Right now making absurd statements about height or arm strength,
or level of competition, blah blah blah, are baseless.

TJ

Irrelevant? lol I never said it was relevant to how good of a QB Keenum will become. But I wasn't saying Keenum performed on the biggest stage or at the highest level either like you did. Conference USA isn't the highest level of collegiate football.

speedfreek
08-15-2013, 12:31 PM
Keenum almost rallied the cougars back from a 20 point deficit to
beat Saban's first bama team as well. (and I believe Keenum was
a freshman/red shirt as well)

Regardless of the talent around him (at whatever level) the guy
just managed to step it up.

I hope it can translate to the NFL, because if it does I think the guy
could eventually help us win a championship..

TJ

Exhibit number one.

Keenum vs Oregon week 1, 2007

Oregon rose as high as number 2 in the poll before an ACL shelved Dennis Dixon and the Ducks' season.
Their offense was potent with the dual threat of Dixon and Jonanthan Stewart (remember that guy), besides TE Ed Dickson.
Their D were loaded with players that eventually got drafted and played in the NFL; for example, Ladarius Byrd, Patrick Chung, Walter Thurmond III, Will Tuikafu, T J Ward.

It was Keenum's first career game and he was in a platoon with Blake Joseph.
He was staring at a 0-14 hole when he entered the game, and managed to pull the Cougars back to a 17-17 tie, then a 20-20 tie.
The Cougars almost took the lead when Keenum threw this interception:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLG5yzh2kRc

I'm not sure I would call it a bad throw; the pass was just off.
It's also possible that the receiver didn't quite run his route properly.

The Ducks marched the field and never looked back.

The two teams traded TDs afterward, with the Ducks leading by 7 (34-27) before Dixon took the ball and ran for an 80-yd TD for a 14 point margin.

A drop by a receiver stopped the Cougars' next time; and then Joseph came back into the game. The final score was 48-27, Oregon.

Still, while Keenum was in there, the Cougars were neck to neck with the Ducks (27-27) with an inferior team on both sides of the ball.

And it was his first college game, at Oregon, no less.
That's a big stage, my friends!

76Texan
08-15-2013, 12:37 PM
Exhibit number two.

Case Keenum vs Alabama - 2007

Four weeks later, the Cougars faced Saban's Tides in Tuscaloosa.
It doesn't get any bigger than that.
His team would have players suspended before SEC play for violations of NCAA rules, but against the Cougars, they were stacked.

That D eventually have too many players that were drafted or played in the NFL after going undrafted. The drafted players are as followed:
Brandon Deaderick, Josh Chapman, Rolando McClain, Rashad Johnson, Marquis Johnson, Kareem Jackson, Javier Arenas, and Ramzee Robinson.

Keenum came in with 6:35 left in the third quarter, facing a 7-23 deficit.
He almost pulled out the game, but the Cougars lost by 6 (24-30),
He had led the offense to the 3 yard line of the Tides.
With no time left on the clock, Keenum threw an INT in the end zone.
I was not at the game, so I can't tell how it happened.
It was still a heck of an effort by Keenum though.

He actually gained 10 points for the Coogs when he was in there.
Who knows what could happen had he played more.

76Texan
08-15-2013, 12:40 PM
The Patriots & Ravens have better defenses than either Oregon or Oklahoma State, so it's not comparing apples to apples.

If this is your argument, then none of the QBs that ever became a starter in the NFL proved diddly squat in college.

Lucky
08-15-2013, 12:42 PM
Are we really digging thru Kennum's college games to justify his pro ability? He's in the pros now. If he proves he has NFL ability, Kennum will get an opportunity. If not here, somewhere.

Vance87
08-15-2013, 12:43 PM
Car & Luck work harder, are more intelligent, & have more talent than Case & McElroy?

I'm not buying it.

I don't know what you mean, Luck is miles above all these guys.

Him & Carr may have similar physical talents but Luck's football IQ and his work ethic obviously are way beyond guys like Carr and McElroy. The jury is out on Case, but he obviously has the talent.

JCTexan
08-15-2013, 12:43 PM
If this is your argument, then none of the QBs that ever became a starter in the NFL proved diddly squat in college.

I'm not saying Keenum didn't prove anything in college. He set records in College. I'm saying comparing his games against Oklahoma State or Oregon vs. Yates against the Ravens is weak.

b0ng
08-15-2013, 01:25 PM
Are we really digging thru Kennum's college games to justify his pro ability? He's in the pros now. If he proves he has NFL ability, Kennum will get an opportunity. If not here, somewhere.

People are pointing out to speedfreak that Keenum did not in fact have magical performances in every big game in his career no matter how much he might try to marginalize below average performances in conference championships or whatnot. I didn't even have to dig because I know Keenum never won a championship in C-USA and had been there at least once or twice.

I'm not a Keenum hater, I hope he does succeed against the almost insurmountable odds against him. But trying to paint him as the savior of the Houston Texans when there is very very very little footage of him against NFL players is silly.

Showtime100
08-15-2013, 02:09 PM
Keenum almost rallied the cougars back from a 20 point deficit to
beat Saban's first bama team as well. (and I believe Keenum was
a freshman/red shirt as well)

Regardless of the talent around him (at whatever level) the guy
just managed to step it up.

I hope it can translate to the NFL, because if it does I think the guy
could eventually help us win a championship..

TJ

I always wonder who you are talking to until I scroll down and see you put your answer over what you are responding to, backwards. :tiphat:

76Texan
08-15-2013, 02:41 PM
Exhibit number two.

Case Keenum vs Alabama - 2007

Four weeks later, the Cougars faced Saban's Tides in Tuscaloosa.
It doesn't get any bigger than that.
His team would have players suspended before SEC play for violations of NCAA rules, but against the Cougars, they were stacked.

That D eventually have too many players that were drafted or played in the NFL after going undrafted. The drafted players are as followed:
Brandon Deaderick, Josh Chapman, Rolando McClain, Rashad Johnson, Marquis Johnson, Kareem Jackson, Javier Arenas, and Ramzee Robinson.

Keenum came in with 6:35 left in the third quarter, facing a 7-23 deficit.
He almost pulled out the game, but the Cougars lost by 6 (24-30),
He had led the offense to the 3 yard line of the Tides.
With no time left on the clock, Keenum threw an INT in the end zone.
I was not at the game, so I can't tell how it happened.
It was still a heck of an effort by Keenum though.

He actually gained 10 points for the Coogs when he was in there.
Who knows what could happen had he played more.

With these 8 players on defense for the Tides plus several more who made NFL squads as UDFA, it's as close to an NFL defense as you can get.

If it doesn't give one a glimpse of what a QB prospect may fare in the NFL, I don't know what will.

And he was playing with scrubs.
He carried that whole team, and beat the Tides by 10 points.

He put 24 points on the board in one and a third quarter.
That was impressive to me, I don't see how anybody can dispute that.

And no, I'm not comparing him with Yates against the Ravens defense.

76Texan
08-15-2013, 02:50 PM
People are pointing out to speedfreak that Keenum did not in fact have magical performances in every big game in his career no matter how much he might try to marginalize below average performances in conference championships or whatnot. I didn't even have to dig because I know Keenum never won a championship in C-USA and had been there at least once or twice.

I'm not a Keenum hater, I hope he does succeed against the almost insurmountable odds against him. But trying to paint him as the savior of the Houston Texans when there is very very very little footage of him against NFL players is silly.

RG III had never even been to a Conference Championship Game.
It takes a whole team to win games, not one player.

NCTexan
08-15-2013, 02:58 PM
And he was playing with scrubs.
He carried that whole team, and beat the Tides by 10 points.



It takes a whole team to win games, not one player.

Which is it?

thunderkyss
08-15-2013, 03:06 PM
Which is it?

MSR

76Texan
08-15-2013, 03:11 PM
Which is it?

You know darn well what I mean, LOL!

You can't expect a QB to carry his team all the time
.




Look at Peyton Manning's career.

speedfreek
08-15-2013, 05:03 PM
I watched the game -- it was almost surreal. The sound of 93,000
people getting very, very quiet as their multi-digit lead was whittled
away.

I really thought Case would pull it off. It was the very last play
and all or nothing. He forced it when he was under pressure (freshman
mistake) and it was picked. That's the kind of game he learned
from in my opinion.

Very similar thing happened when Keenum almost beat Andy Dalton's
TCU team in the Houston Bowl. UH was a pretty hefty dog if I remember
correctly.

Case started the game and most of his skills players were sick from
the flu. This is also a game he had to play with an interim head
coach, as Art Briles had literally just left to coach Baylor a week or
so earlier.

They lost the game on the last play, where Case threw a perfect pass
to a tight end that dropped it in the endzone. Couldn't blame the
tight end though -- he had been vomiting the entire game and needed
fluids..

TCU, Bama, Ok. St., Texas Tech, UCLA #2, etc. showed me what kind
of guts the kid has when the chips are down. Never seen that
kind of stuff from Schaub or Yates..

At this point Keenum has more to prove before he sees any regular
season playing time. But I won't count him out..

TJ

Exhibit number two.

Case Keenum vs Alabama - 2007

Four weeks later, the Cougars faced Saban's Tides in Tuscaloosa.
It doesn't get any bigger than that.
His team would have players suspended before SEC play for violations of NCAA rules, but against the Cougars, they were stacked.

That D eventually have too many players that were drafted or played in the NFL after going undrafted. The drafted players are as followed:
Brandon Deaderick, Josh Chapman, Rolando McClain, Rashad Johnson, Marquis Johnson, Kareem Jackson, Javier Arenas, and Ramzee Robinson.

Keenum came in with 6:35 left in the third quarter, facing a 7-23 deficit.
He almost pulled out the game, but the Cougars lost by 6 (24-30),
He had led the offense to the 3 yard line of the Tides.
With no time left on the clock, Keenum threw an INT in the end zone.
I was not at the game, so I can't tell how it happened.
It was still a heck of an effort by Keenum though.

He actually gained 10 points for the Coogs when he was in there.
Who knows what could happen had he played more.

speedfreek
08-15-2013, 05:17 PM
That he didn't win a championship proves nothing. Where is Marino's
superbowl?

Case had 2 attempts to win a conference title, the first time in 2009
(ECU) he hit a receiver square on in the chest for a game winning
touchdown. It was not caught, bounced up, and was interecepted
in the endzone by a defensive player to end the game. He played
that game in foul weather, horrid wind, and conditions that should
have killed the air-raid attack completely. He also lost his starting
left guard to an injury against rice the previous week and was under
massive pressure the entire game.

In fact, the last play is still on youtube. The receiver had position,
the ball was where it needed to be. A catch = a win. (4:56 mark)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u146eg9DLNc

The only beef is that with 40 some-odd seconds left Keenum could
have tried to move closer to the goal line to get a higher percentage
throw..

The second attempt was against souther miss in 2011. Anyone that
follows the program knows how that went. The entire team collapsed
in that game and the head coach (who didn't bother to gameplan
for it until the previous thursday) was already out the door to aTm.

I can tell you this -- before Keenum, UH had either the longest
(or second longest) bowl game losing streak in all of NCAA D1
football. In the bowl games he played in he was 2-1, breaking that
streak.

Kevin Kolb -- drafted in the second round and winner of the conference
USA championship in 2006 for UH never won a bowl game.

No body is annointing Keenum the savior of the Texans. I'm just asking
people to hold off on the stupid (and unjustified) knocks he seems
to be taking.

Let it play out for a couple of years. We might have an Aaron Rodgers
like story when Matt retires or moves on.. (or not)

TJ

People are pointing out to speedfreak that Keenum did not in fact have magical performances in every big game in his career no matter how much he might try to marginalize below average performances in conference championships or whatnot. I didn't even have to dig because I know Keenum never won a championship in C-USA and had been there at least once or twice.

I'm not a Keenum hater, I hope he does succeed against the almost insurmountable odds against him. But trying to paint him as the savior of the Houston Texans when there is very very very little footage of him against NFL players is silly.

76Texan
08-17-2013, 10:39 PM
How are we going to do this?

My vote hasn't changed.
It's still may the best man win the job.

One thing I will vote for is that somebody will sure as heck pick him up if he continues to play like this.

Keep working hard, Case!

legacy_gt
08-17-2013, 10:44 PM
great matchup between these guys. I love seeing the passion with Case. He's also faster getting the ball out and Case actually looks like he has a more powerful arm than Schaub or TJ.

TJ played well. I like how he controlled the game.

I think this game could have been a tie or maybe a slight edge to Case with the long ball on 4th....that was clutch.

I'm good with Case at 3rd, since he'd prob have to be way over TJ to win the spot. I just like the fact there's some real competition.

PapaL
08-17-2013, 10:46 PM
Best man still but the way Case is playing, I will say it looks like we should have 3 QBs on the roster. He looked good. I will give him that. TJ is still QB2 in my book. TJ hasn't been bad and Case hasn't outplayed him to take his job. Interesting battle for sure.

SAMURAITEXAN
08-17-2013, 10:48 PM
I think, we need to keep 3QBs on our roster.

9baller
08-17-2013, 10:59 PM
I think we do carry three QBs on the roster, but I also believe that during the regular season one of them will be traded to a desperate team. If they are playing about equal then I see Yates being traded this season. I don't have a problem with Yates, but realistically one of them will have to go sooner or later.

EllisUnit
08-17-2013, 11:01 PM
IMO case has outplayed both QBs. Matt hasnt looked bad, and i know he is still the guy. TJ has looked good as well, with all this said i am seeing some good things from Case that i really like. Afraid he will be picked up by someone if we PS him.

If schaub goes down i think we will be just fine with the 2 we have.

76Texan
08-17-2013, 11:09 PM
IMO case has outplayed both QBs. Matt hasnt looked bad, and i know he is still the guy. TJ has looked good as well, with all this said i am seeing some good things from Case that i really like. Afraid he will be picked up by someone if we PS him.

If schaub goes down i think we will be just fine with the 2 we have.

Don't jinx me now EU, LOL!

The Pencil Neck
08-17-2013, 11:56 PM
My vote stays the same but even before this, I had us keeping 3 QBs on our roster this year.

Case is showing he's a legitimate NFL QB but TJ isn't looking bad, either.

DocBar
08-18-2013, 12:05 AM
I think we do carry three QBs on the roster, but I also believe that during the regular season one of them will be traded to a desperate team. If they are playing about equal then I see Yates being traded this season. I don't have a problem with Yates, but realistically one of them will have to go sooner or later.You must not follow the Texans very closely. Either one of our backup QB's appear valuable right now. That dictates that Smith will have to cut one so another team can get him for free.

In all seriousness, I'm not sure if a team would sign Keenum off of our practice squad. He has shown a very good grasp of our offense, but I can't think of another team that runs an offense similar enough to ours to justify the roster spot.

Both backups looked pretty dang decent tonight. I still give Keenum abit of an edge due to intangibles and long term upside.

Lucky
08-18-2013, 05:30 AM
In all seriousness, I'm not sure if a team would sign Keenum off of our practice squad. He has shown a very good grasp of our offense, but I can't think of another team that runs an offense similar enough to ours to justify the roster spot.
The Texans run the WCO. It's the most copied offense in the NFL. Sure, they have their specific plays and terminology. But for a QB, it is still the WCO.

thunderkyss
08-18-2013, 06:52 AM
If schaub goes down i think we will be just fine with the 2 we have.

IMO, this is the whole point.

We should have won the Super Bowl two years running. I know a lot of teams say that & I don't know if you (all inclusive) believe it or not. But I believe it. I believe Bob McNair, Rick Smith, Gary Kubiak, & our core players believe it.

I believe "we" also believe we should win the Super Bowl this year. We're starting at 0-0 like every other team, it's not going to be easy, but we've got the guys in place to make it happen.

This QB "competition" is to push both young QBs, get them both thinking that they are one play away & they need to be ready to take advantage of that situation. If (God forbid - & I mean that seriously (not like my wife who actually wishes harm on the guy)) something were to happen with Schaub...... or the Gimp shows up again, that's not going to be an excuse for why we didn't win a Lombardy. We already used those excuses.

Super Bowl of Bust.

bckey
08-18-2013, 07:01 AM
The Texans couldn't even secure home field last year much less beat a good team in the playoffs. So no they shouldn't have won the superbowl last year.

The year prior to that they played lights out. I think that was their year. Injuries just piled up but they never quit. Last year was an end of season collapse. Totally different.

Grams
08-18-2013, 08:39 AM
I voted for Case.

I liked TJ and how he played when Schaub and Leinart went down. But don/t really see where he has the capability to go much farther. I think he is good and a good backup if we need one, but not the type to be a really good starter.

I don't watch college ball and really do not care how anyone played in college. The only thing that matters is can he play in the NFL. A lot of very good college players do not make that transition.

I see an excitement on the field when Case is in and it is not just him. He seems to motivate everyone else around him. Everyone just seems a little bit quicker. He seems to get the ball out of his hands faster than either Matt or TJ. He throws a really nice ball. That pass last night to Jean for the TD was beautiful to watch.

To be honest, I did not watch the second half with TJ in the game. I will watch that later as I recorded it.

I also do not think he will make it to our PS. I think somebody that plays the WCO will pick him up. Right now I would rather lose TJ than Case. I just think that Case has way more upside than TJ.

DocBar
08-18-2013, 09:22 AM
The Texans run the WCO. It's the most copied offense in the NFL. Sure, they have their specific plays and terminology. But for a QB, it is still the WCO. IMO, the Texans run a fairly unique version of the WCO. Much more different than a few specific plays and terminology. I see a few specific WCO plays and many more that are Kubiak's own. Just MHO.

Lucky
08-18-2013, 09:26 AM
I also do not think he will make it to our PS. I think somebody that plays the WCO will pick him up. Right now I would rather lose TJ than Case. I just think that Case has way more upside than TJ.
I don't want to lose either of them. I've been able to watch enough preseason games on NFLN to see that there is still a QB shortage in the NFL. Miami could definitely use one of these guys to backup Tannehill (who looked great). QB is the most important position in the game and when you have a commodity like the Texans do, you don't throw it away. I might listen to a trade offer, but I'm not cutting one of them so I can carry a 6th CB or WR.

Lucky
08-18-2013, 09:38 AM
IMO, the Texans run a fairly unique version of the WCO. Much more different than a few specific plays and terminology. I see a few specific WCO plays and many more that are Kubiak's own. Just MHO.
These are not Gary Kubiak's plays. He studied under Shanahan as an assistant and played under Dan Reeves. So his influences are from the Bill Walsh and Tom Landry schools. Landry was running the spread from the shotgun before anyone knew to call it that. The two most copied coaches I can think of.

Yes, the running game is different from the WCO. But that has little to do with the QB position. And even the ZBS the Texans use has been copied across the NFL. Possibly the Texans combination is unique (other than the Skins who have added the option). But, it is a derivative offense just as any other NFL offense is. So no, neither Yates nor Keenum should be considered QBs who cannot transfer their skills and knowledge to another team.

rpagz3
08-18-2013, 11:41 AM
I don't want either of these three in 2014+. I want Aaron Murray of Georgia..

76Texan
08-18-2013, 11:53 AM
I want Aaron Murray of Georgia..

Murray isn't bad, but he needs to play better.
(And yes, he's about Keenum's height, too.)

EllisUnit
08-18-2013, 12:28 PM
IMO, this is the whole point.

We should have won the Super Bowl two years running. I know a lot of teams say that & I don't know if you (all inclusive) believe it or not. But I believe it. I believe Bob McNair, Rick Smith, Gary Kubiak, & our core players believe it.

I believe "we" also believe we should win the Super Bowl this year. We're starting at 0-0 like every other team, it's not going to be easy, but we've got the guys in place to make it happen.

This QB "competition" is to push both young QBs, get them both thinking that they are one play away & they need to be ready to take advantage of that situation. If (God forbid - & I mean that seriously (not like my wife who actually wishes harm on the guy)) something were to happen with Schaub...... or the Gimp shows up again, that's not going to be an excuse for why we didn't win a Lombardy. We already used those excuses.

Super Bowl of Bust.

HAHA thats sad, my wife wishes Schaub would fo down with an injury every game as well haha. And when he does make a good play she says that was lucky he still sucks. Sad Sad.

thunderkyss
08-18-2013, 12:33 PM
HAHA thats sad, my wife wishes Schaub would fo down with an injury every game as well haha. And when he does make a good play she says that was lucky he still sucks. Sad Sad.

pssh..... if Schaub makes a good play, she tells me Tj would have done better. Now that she's seen Case, she's putting a hit out on Schaub (hit me up if you know any assassins that accepts food stamps)

Rey
08-18-2013, 12:36 PM
Kind of funny to see all these case keenum/QB themed threads all over the place.

CloakNNNdagger
08-18-2013, 12:42 PM
pssh..... if Schaub makes a good play, she tells me Tj would have done better. Now that she's seen Case, she's putting a hit out on Schaub (hit me up if you know any assassins that accepts food stamps)

I've used Guido for years.........cheap, efficient and "clean".........I know he takes credit cards.........I'll ask if he takes food stamps.:thinking:

EllisUnit
08-18-2013, 01:11 PM
pssh..... if Schaub makes a good play, she tells me Tj would have done better. Now that she's seen Case, she's putting a hit out on Schaub (hit me up if you know any assassins that accepts food stamps)

HAHA yeah if only.