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View Full Version : Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?


HTown2ATX
08-07-2013, 07:21 AM
I was screwing around on the internet this morning at work and came across this hilarious piece of audio from 2010 that never gets old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNg9qDyViCc

It got me thinking about how terrible he used to be and how I wanted to personally pack his bags and send him out of town. I used to literally go and get a beer from the kitchen and hear on TV in the back ground the Texans give up a big play and I knew before I would even come back and see the replay that Jackson shat his pants on defense and 9 out of 10 times I was right.

Now though, I have to say, I love him back there with JJo and if this front 7 holds up, we should really be exciting on D imo.

I realize this is not a groundbreaking thread/post but A) I wanted to post that audio clip cause it is just funny and B) I haven't been in this main part of the board since last season so I'm unaware of how many, if any threads there have recently been about KJ.

thunderkyss
08-07-2013, 07:37 AM
I never hated him. From day one I saw the talent that got him drafted. I excused his play because I understood he was put in a bad situation. But from day 1, I knew he was a baller.

Texn4life
08-07-2013, 07:48 AM
People with unrealistic expectations hated him. Corners don't step into this league ready to dominate normally. He was thrown into the mix with a bad defense and bad safeties. He was destined to fail early on.

HTown2ATX
08-07-2013, 08:17 AM
I don't know if I actually hated him as a player nor did I expect him to be Prime Time in season 1.....however.....he was terrible when not viewed through Battle Red glasses, that's just how it was. I hated him getting burned and starting from day 1 and at times yeah wanted to run him out on a rail but I am so glad we kept him.

Dude is a bad ass now. :swatter:

HJam72
08-07-2013, 08:17 AM
I had been wanting them to draft a first round corner for a while and was happy about it, even though we did get Joseph in FA. Never doubted that it had been time for that, but I can't say I never doubted Jackson himself. I expected bad play that first year, but geez...

Never wanted him gone. Knew he still had potential.

Still did remember, "...and Kareem Jackson will fall down." I used to end some of my posts with that.

Rey
08-07-2013, 08:24 AM
Kareem was awful when he first got here. He was not that good his second season either when Jason Allen was taking some snaps from him.

Last year was his first complete season where he really showed his ability.

But really, even as a rookie Kareem was pretty good at plays that happened in front of him or withing the first 10-15 yards. It's when he had to flip his hips and run that he struggled. Long passes where not kind to him.

Last year though, he was 100% better at deep passes that he had been. His confidence just grew once he felt he could defend deep down the field.

drs23
08-07-2013, 08:52 AM
Kareem was awful when he first got here. He was not that good his second season either when Jason Allen was taking some snaps from him.

Last year was his first complete season where he really showed his ability.

But really, even as a rookie Kareem was pretty good at plays that happened in front of him or withing the first 10-15 yards. It's when he had to flip his hips and run that he struggled. Long passes where not kind to him.

Last year though, he was 100% better at deep passes that he had been. His confidence just grew once he felt he could defend deep down the field.

Agreed Rey and I expect to see even more improvement again this season. From what we're hearing from camp KJ has honed his skills and technique even more and has taken another big step.

He still can't stop Octopus Hands Nuk but neither can JJo but he did shut down Megatron in the second half last season when he told Vance Joseph to "Let me chase him." I chuckle every time I think about that.

ATXtexanfan
08-07-2013, 09:31 AM
Its amazing what coaching can do

Thorn
08-07-2013, 10:06 AM
He used to be pretty bad, and now he's good. I used to hate him, now I love him.

It's football and I'm a fan, I can say what I want about any of 'em.

noxiousdog
08-07-2013, 11:11 AM
People with unrealistic expectations hated him. Corners don't step into this league ready to dominate normally. He was thrown into the mix with a bad defense and bad safeties. He was destined to fail early on.


My feelings exactly. Especially the safeties.

DX-TEX
08-07-2013, 11:20 AM
Kareem tripped twice while you typed this.

eriadoc
08-07-2013, 11:35 AM
Never met the man, so I never hated him. I hated the way he played. I hated that the Texans drafted him in the first round when he clearly wasn't pro-ready, as they kept saying. Hated that they kept repeating that lie while other corners drafted contributed to their teams in better ways.

I'm glad he's finally turned into the player that the Texans insisted he was when they drafted him. His 2011 season should have been his rookie season. In 2010, he was not ready for prime time in any way, shape, or form.

thunderkyss
08-07-2013, 11:49 AM
I hated that the Texans drafted him in the first round when he clearly wasn't pro-ready, as they kept saying.

I could be wrong, but I thought they said he was the most pro ready. Seeing how McCourty is a safety now & I don't know what Kyle Wilson is doing... kind of hard to fault them on that.

Now they kept saying he was ready to start from day one. I found that hard to believe. He might have been their best option, but that's a different story.

Rey
08-07-2013, 11:54 AM
I was happy with Kareem Jackson pick at the time. I wasn't a fan of Kyle Wilson at all so I was just happy we didn't pick him.

TejasTom
08-07-2013, 11:55 AM
I could be wrong, but I thought they said he was the most pro ready...

They did say that. The problem was that coaching staff wasn't pro ready.

TexansFTW
08-07-2013, 11:59 AM
"...And Kareem Jackson falls down". LOL, yep, that's what I remember.

I won't lie, I hated this dude and wanted us to find another #1 corner because he, IMO, was worthless.

We did with JJo and Kareem has looked a lot better. You generally look better when you are guarding guys like Andre Roberts instead of guarding Larry Fitzgerald though. I'm excited about the strides he's made, but still not ready for JJo to go anywhere.

Either way, congrats to all of you that said you loved him, expected his garbage play, and stood behind him. I personally think yall are liars, but Captain Hindsight might say differently. Regardless, glad he's come around and excited for this year. I'm just joking and being sarcastic rather than trying to pick a fight FYI.

eriadoc
08-07-2013, 12:00 PM
I could be wrong, but I thought they said he was the most pro ready. Seeing how McCourty is a safety now & I don't know what Kyle Wilson is doing... kind of hard to fault them on that.

McCourty was voted 1st Team All Pro by Sporting News and 2nd Team All Pro by the AP. THAT is pro ready. If you want to talk about long term ceiling, that's fine, but it's not what they kept saying. Wilson has been a bust, but there were other DBs taken in the first and second round after the Texans pick. I think they pushed it, drafting for need.

I am happy Jackson has improved to the point where he is, though. He's kind of the project that worked out, to contrast Amobi Ok0ye. While I'm glad he worked out, that doesn't mean I'm a fan of first round projects.

DX-TEX
08-07-2013, 12:08 PM
"...And Kareem Jackson falls down". LOL, yep, that's what I remember.

I won't lie, I hated this dude and wanted us to find another #1 corner because he, IMO, was worthless.

We did with JJo and Kareem has looked a lot better. You generally look better when you are guarding guys like Andre Roberts instead of guarding Larry Fitzgerald though. I'm excited about the strides he's made, but still not ready for JJo to go anywhere.

Either way, congrats to all of you that said you loved him, expected his garbage play, and stood behind him. I personally think yall are liars, but Captain Hindsight might say differently. Regardless, glad he's come around and excited for this year. I'm just joking and being sarcastic rather than trying to pick a fight FYI.

But what he did in the Lions game last season showed how much he has grown.

http://www.csnhouston.com/football-houston-texans/talk/kareem-jackson-coming-his-own

Jackson’s growth was on full display against the Detroit Lions and Calvin Johnson on Thanksgiving. Johnson went into the locker room at halftime with five catches for 103 yards and a touchdown. Jackson took over cover duties in the second half and held the single season record holder for receiving yards in check. Matthew Stafford targeted Johnson eight times in the second frame and Jackson held Johnson to just 37 yards and three catches.

And I cant find the quote but Vance Joseph stated that Kareem told him at halftime to lock him on Johnson.

TexansFTW
08-07-2013, 12:20 PM
But what he did in the Lions game last season showed how much he has grown.

http://www.csnhouston.com/football-houston-texans/talk/kareem-jackson-coming-his-own

And I cant find the quote but Vance Joseph stated that Kareem told him at halftime to lock him on Johnson.

He got Megatron when he was already tired from scorching the field. I'm just joking.

You're right, he's def making positive strides and I'm excited. I'm still not ready for JJo to go anywhere yet, but I like what KJax is doing.

Playoffs
08-07-2013, 12:31 PM
KJ has shown a tremendous amount of intestinal fortitude in fighting through the crowd of critics to master his craft.

And props to 76T for showing us the way and taking the heat for standing his position.

http://prod.images.texans.clubs.nflcdn.com/image-web/NFL/CDA/data/deployed/prod/TEXANS/assets/images/imported/HOU/photos/clubimages/2013/08-August/temp_BB15877--nfl_mezz_1280_1024.JPG

thunderkyss
08-07-2013, 12:43 PM
McCourty was voted 1st Team All Pro by Sporting News and 2nd Team All Pro by the AP. THAT is pro ready.

Yeah.. McCourty had an excellent rookie year & hurt my argument that 1st year corners aren't expected to play at that level.

Heck, I'm glad no one called me on Glover Quin. He was what a 4th round pick & had an excellent (at least very good) rookie season the year before we drafted Kareem.

thunderkyss
08-07-2013, 12:48 PM
He got Megatron when he was already tired from scorching the field. I'm just joking.

You're right, he's def making positive strides and I'm excited. I'm still not ready for JJo to go anywhere yet, but I like what KJax is doing.

They're two different guys & it's going to help us out a lot having both of them.

Jackson (in my mind) is the guy you want on the bigger more physical players.... including Fitzgerald. Jjo is the guy you want on the speed guys.

I think it was 2012 when we played Baltimore twice. The first time, Torrey Smith lit Kj up & Bolden was having his way with Jjo. The second game, we put the more physical Kj on Bolden & the better long range guy on Smith & pretty much held them in check.

But with a guy like Calvin Johnson, or Reggie Wayne Jjo would be my first choice, but I wouldn't mind putting Kj on them & having him check them on the line, early & often. Once they get past him, we'll be in trouble if Jj ain't doing his thang.

EllisUnit
08-07-2013, 12:53 PM
Naaaaaaaaa who here hated KJ ??? :choke:

Shame on you. Haha

Yes we all know i was the biggest KJ hater, glad i ate crow on that one now he is one hell of a CB

Thorn
08-07-2013, 12:56 PM
Naaaaaaaaa who here hated KJ ??? :choke:

Shame on you. Haha

Yes we all know i was the biggest KJ hater, glad i ate crow on that one now he is one hell of a CB

The amount of crow needing to be eaten concerning KJ would decimate the species. LOL

Porky
08-07-2013, 01:09 PM
I've never had a better tasting plate of crow pie. I was relentless in my criticism. I didn't think he would amount to squat. He still has a little trouble on those deep routes, but we've got help now. If KJ keeps improving he can be one of the best #2's in the NFL.

That's how you shut people like me up - by working your tail off to improve. Kudos to KJ! :texflag:

Hervoyel
08-07-2013, 02:22 PM
Lets be reasonable people. In 2010 we pretty much hated the entire Texans defense. I mean, 32 out of 32 against the pass will do that to you. Kareem Jackson was just the guy usually in frame when the fan was soiled.

Playoffs
08-07-2013, 02:38 PM
Kareem Jackson was rated 96th out of 100 CBs in 2010 (http://www.profootballfocus.com/) (>25% of snaps)

Kareem Jackson was rated 13th out of 113 CBs in 2012 (>25% of snaps)

Ridiculous improvement.

Hervoyel
08-07-2013, 03:09 PM
Kareem Jackson was rated 96th out of 100 CBs in 2010 (http://www.profootballfocus.com/) (>25% of snaps)

Kareem Jackson was rated 13th out of 113 CBs in 2012 (>25% of snaps)

Ridiculous improvement.

Indeed. That's more than just "Made the leap". That's going from a system where he was put in a position to fail to a system that put him in a position to succeed. Kareem put in the work and got better, no doubt about it. Wade had something to do with that too.

michaelm
08-07-2013, 03:33 PM
Naaaaaaaaa who here hated KJ ??? :choke:

Shame on you. Haha

Yes we all know i was the biggest KJ hater, glad i ate crow on that one now he is one hell of a CB

You could borrow my avatar...

EllisUnit
08-07-2013, 03:40 PM
You could borrow my avatar...

haha thats pretty good

thunderkyss
08-07-2013, 03:58 PM
Kareem Jackson was rated 96th out of 100 CBs in 2010 (http://www.profootballfocus.com/) (>25% of snaps)

Kareem Jackson was rated 13th out of 113 CBs in 2012 (>25% of snaps)

Ridiculous improvement.

How did McCourty rate? I'm thinking he declined in that same time. Do you think McCourty got worse in his time in the NFL?
.

HTown2ATX
08-07-2013, 04:00 PM
You could borrow my avatar...

Ah, I never knew what that was......nice

deucetx
08-07-2013, 04:30 PM
How did McCourty rate? I'm thinking he declined in that same time. Do you think McCourty got worse in his time in the NFL?
.

He basically stayed the same so a high performer.

7th out of 100 CB's in 2010

8th out of 113 CB's in 2012 (basically half his snaps were at CB)

14th out of 88 Safties in 2012

76Texan
08-07-2013, 04:50 PM
McCourty was so pro-ready, they finally converted him to safety, letting a journeyman and a rookie 7th rounder man the CB spots.

Come on, get real people.

McCourty is nothing more than a zone or cover two corner; he can't play man for a lick. Just ask the fans and the media up there.

Wolf
08-07-2013, 04:57 PM
Kareem tripped twice while you typed this.


This.^^^^ i dont think for some he was hatred except that this was the running joke that hurt

TheMatrix31
08-07-2013, 05:45 PM
He was garbage so I hated him. Good for him for improving the way he has.

TejasTom
08-07-2013, 06:07 PM
He basically stayed the same so a high performer.

7th out of 100 CB's in 2010

8th out of 113 CB's in 2012 (basically half his snaps were at CB)

14th out of 88 Safties in 2012

Dtx, did you look at his 2011 performance. I know Playoffs left out 2011 but it wasn't required for the point he's making.

From PFF (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/12/cornerbacks-a-glance-at-the-2011-numbers/)
For 2011 Season
Covering Ground
And what about yardage … which corner gave up the most this year?

Rank Name Team TA Rec Yds
1 Tramon Williams GB 108 61 1034
2 Devin McCourty NE 101 62 1004

Highest opposing QB rating
Rank Name Team QB Rating
6 Kareem Jackson HST 110.9
8 Devin McCourty NE 106.2


As 76 said, man coverage is not strength. From another PFF (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/10/28/stories-of-the-season-mccourtys-sophomore-slump/)article. Bill realized what he has and moved him. Kareem got better.

McCourty 2010:
Again, McCourty’s biggest asset last season was his ability to avoid the big play. He was asked to play a lot of “off” man and zone concepts and he really excelled at covering receivers deep and keeping completed passes in front of him.

McCourty 2011:
When discussing the Patriots’ change in defensive philosophy for 2011, ... possibly due to inexperience at safety, he rolled the dice by playing more man-to-man press coverage, and McCourty was out of his element.

Bottom Line
After McCourty showed himself to be one of the bright young CBs in the league last season, he has clearly taken a step back. At first it seemed the change in scheme was to blame, but his tackling struggles are also alarming....

eriadoc
08-07-2013, 06:07 PM
McCourty was so pro-ready, they finally converted him to safety, letting a journeyman and a rookie 7th rounder man the CB spots.

Come on, get real people.

There's a difference between pro ready and ceiling. KJ has a higher ceiling for sure, in part because of his ability to play man coverage. But McCourty didn't just make the Pro Bowl in his rookie year, he was All Pro. His contributions to his team were WAY above and beyond KJ's. THAT is pro ready. He came into the pros, stepped in immediately, played all 16 games, and was an All Pro.

None of that matters now except to highlight the BS that Kubiak and Co. kept spewing.

TexansSeminole
08-07-2013, 06:34 PM
Kareem was awful when he first got here. He was not that good his second season either when Jason Allen was taking some snaps from him.

Last year was his first complete season where he really showed his ability.

But really, even as a rookie Kareem was pretty good at plays that happened in front of him or withing the first 10-15 yards. It's when he had to flip his hips and run that he struggled. Long passes where not kind to him.

Last year though, he was 100% better at deep passes that he had been. His confidence just grew once he felt he could defend deep down the field.

These were always my thoughts on Kareem. He was always good with short routes and could tackle pretty well. He just needed some experience in the NFL against deep routes. I was telling people to just wait for him to develop.

76Texan
08-07-2013, 07:33 PM
There's a difference between pro ready and ceiling. KJ has a higher ceiling for sure, in part because of his ability to play man coverage. But McCourty didn't just make the Pro Bowl in his rookie year, he was All Pro. His contributions to his team were WAY above and beyond KJ's. THAT is pro ready. He came into the pros, stepped in immediately, played all 16 games, and was an All Pro.

None of that matters now except to highlight the BS that Kubiak and Co. kept spewing.

When you have a zone corner or a cover two corner (who can play man-under), it means that you have to keep two safeties back for a good portion of the time.
When the corner has more help, his job is easier because he doesn't have to worry about getting back deep.

On a few occasions toward the end of his rookie year when Belichik tried to put a little more on McCourty's plate, that was when he was exposed.
That was what also happened in his second year, prompted Belichik to start playing him some at safety.

And he continued to struggle in his third year, promting a "permanent" move to safety.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1007442-new-england-patriots-what-would-moving-to-safety-mean-for-devin-mccourty

Some says his Rookie's year was beginner's luck:

http://thesportsmenu.com/home/?p=3560

What I saw when I watched each of his games the last 2-1/2 years is that when he has helped, he can play. But playing with help a majority of the time is NOT Pro-ready.

This is nothing new to the more knowledgeable Patriots fans; they had talked about it at length sometimes in his mid-second year. Some guys even break down his poor plays with videos (and not just screen shots like I do, LOL).
I had shown one of them last year; it's somewhere in one of the threads.
You don't have to take my words for anything.
It's not a secret. When a guy can't play corner in his third year, how can he be Pro-Ready as a rookie. Take a deep breath and think about it.

steelbtexan
08-07-2013, 08:05 PM
Its amazing what coaching can do

^^^^
This

KJ should thank God every day that Wade and Vance were hired.

That and the fact that BoB finally spent some money in FA on JoJo and Manning. This allowed KJ to develop properly. Something that I didn't think KJ had the ability to do. (Develop)

eriadoc
08-07-2013, 10:30 PM
It's not a secret. When a guy can't play corner in his third year, how can he be Pro-Ready as a rookie. Take a deep breath and think about it.

LOL, you think about it. The guy has a skill set that allowed him to be successful right out of the gate. He doesn't have other skill sets. Good coaches put players in positions to succeed.

You think Ronde Barber can play man? You think Nnamdi Asomugha can play zone?

My entire point was pro ready means step in on day one and contribute. McCourty did that. KJ contributed to the opponents.

And as I said earlier, none of this matters.

TejasTom
08-07-2013, 10:48 PM
... Good coaches put players in positions to succeed.
....

Are you trying to compare Belichick to the not ready for Katy high school coaching staff of Frank Bush and David Gibbs. These 2 could coach the 84 Bears or 2000 Ravens in to the toilet.

And Belichick slipped up on McCourty in the second year.

76Texan
08-08-2013, 12:13 AM
LOL, you think about it. The guy has a skill set that allowed him to be successful right out of the gate. He doesn't have other skill sets. Good coaches put players in positions to succeed.

You think Ronde Barber can play man? You think Nnamdi Asomugha can play zone?

My entire point was pro ready means step in on day one and contribute. McCourty did that. KJ contributed to the opponents.

And as I said earlier, none of this matters.

Come on eriadoc. The fact that Belichik had another guy to help out McCourty on a majority of the plays mean that he wasn't Pro-Ready.

If the Texans had the same scheme for Jackson, he would have looked much much better.

One guy plays on the sand slot all by himself; the other with a baby sitter, and you're telling me the guy with a baby sitter holding his hands "Pro-ready"?

His own fans were glad they switched him to safety, and you're telling me he's "Pro-ready"?
It doesn't make any sense, dude.

thunderkyss
08-08-2013, 07:09 AM
These were always my thoughts on Kareem. He was always good with short routes and could tackle pretty well. He just needed some experience in the NFL against deep routes. I was telling people to just wait for him to develop.

I agree with this, more so than to say he was awful. There were some things he did well, some things he didn't. Same with McCourty & Glover Quin. The Patriots coaches did a better job of asking McCourty to do what he was good at, as well as the players around him did a better job around him.

In 2009, our coaches did a better job of asking Glover to do the things he was good at & didn't ask him to do things he was not good at. You rarely saw Glover singled up on anyone more than 20 yards out.

It's possible that our coaches saw McCourty & Glover as safeties, so when they said most pro-ready corner available, even with hindsight, I believe they were more right than not. McCourty is not a CB in this league. He wasn't his rookie year & he isn't now.

There's no doubt in my mind Kareem would have had a much better rookie season if we were able to generate the pressure we did in 2009 or 2011, or if he had someone like Manning or Glover to back him up, or if Eugene Wilson had another good year in him, or if we had Dunta to play the #1 Receiver where we could cheat to Kareem's side.

But even as a rookie, 6 to 7 times out of 10, receivers could not get off the line with Kareem in front of him. But we "focused" on the 30% of the times that the receiver got a free release, whether they beat him or he fell down. & once they got past him, he wasn't catching them & he had no "last line of defense" so those plays would turn into big plays.

& I can't count how many times I saw two receivers lined up on the same side of the field & you knew they were going to run crossing routes. Our DBs would "always" maintain the same depth & when the receivers would cross, the DBs would run into each other.

That could've been Kareem screwing up, being the new guy. But if the other DB, who had more experience, didn't adjust his depth, or tell Kareem to adjust his depth... or if the coaches didn't catch it & address it during the week, tell them to adjust from straight man to the inside man defending the inside route & the outside man defending the outside route... because it happened again & again & again I don't think they fixed it until very late that season, or early the following season... but yeah, I'm sure some of the blame should have been on Kareem for stuff like that, but he had a whole support sysem, that imo failed him.

deucetx
08-08-2013, 07:21 AM
LOL, you think about it. The guy has a skill set that allowed him to be successful right out of the gate. He doesn't have other skill sets. Good coaches put players in positions to succeed.

You think Ronde Barber can play man? You think Nnamdi Asomugha can play zone?

My entire point was pro ready means step in on day one and contribute. McCourty did that. KJ contributed to the opponents.

And as I said earlier, none of this matters.

Have to agree. It matters little to nothing. Trying to compare or tear down McCourty isn't needed to justify Kareem's selection. Both players are now essential to their team secondaries as simple as that. McCourty started off that way because he was utilized correctly for his skillset.

And not being able to handle one style over another doesn't make you pro-ready. Being pro-ready means able to step in and contribute immediately where you aren't overwhelmed by the mechanics of the level of competition, game speed and you fit an nfl pro system. Doesn't mean you must fit into every system.

A lot of corners have a strength in one coverage over another. I know I did and I played the position for years. Some excel in press but if you ask them to play off the receiver they show issues maintaining. Some can play man and are weak in zone, while some player cover 2 better than say cover 3. It is on the coaches to put the player in a position to excel or develop the player to fit their own scheme. Obviously Bush could not do that and Wade is doing it.

So just because McCourty struggled in press didn't make him less pro-ready. He had already displayed he was capable of dealing with speed of the game and the mechanics involved. He just has his strength and weaknesses like several players in the league.

Rey
08-08-2013, 08:38 AM
That could've been Kareem screwing up, being the new guy. But if the other DB, who had more experience, didn't adjust his depth, or tell Kareem to adjust his depth... or if the coaches didn't catch it & address it during the week, tell them to adjust from straight man to the inside man defending the inside route & the outside man defending the outside route... because it happened again & again & again I don't think they fixed it until very late that season, or early the following season... but yeah, I'm sure some of the blame should have been on Kareem for stuff like that, but he had a whole support sysem, that imo failed him.

Those same DB's were respectable the year before. They were a part of the team having it's first winning season and everyone was excited about What Pollard brought to the secondary.

This was my main problem with the Kareem arguments. Even Kareem's current coach came in and said he needed a lot of work. VJ said himself that Kareem was good in the first 10-15 yards but was not very good after that (and that was after some had been saying that for well over a year already).

I disagree with all the film study stuff 76 did, and I still do. I'm not saying those other DB's were perfect, but there is absolutely 0 way you can look at film of the DB's as a fan and definitively decipher which player should have done what. So I don't buy that all the DB's on the team were failing Kareem, when we had raggedy Dunta out there the year before and the DB's weren't that bad.

Now I do blame the coaches for putting him out there as a rookie and not teaching him proper technique. I blame the coaches in general for the lack of talent in that front seven not generating much of a pass rush to help the DB's out.

But Kareem was not good his first year, he was a bit better the next year but still not full time starting caliber...He was awesome last season. Same surrounding DB's as the year before, better Kareem because HE improved.

ObsiWan
08-08-2013, 08:47 AM
These were always my thoughts on Kareem. He was always good with short routes and could tackle pretty well. He just needed some experience in the NFL against deep routes. I was telling people to just wait for him to develop.

From the time KJ got here his strength was his tackling. I recall posting - during one of many bash KJ threads - that a corner has another job that's almost as important as having good cover skills and that's how he does against the run. KJ was fearless when coming up and forcing RBs back inside if not knifing in to make the tackle himself.

Weak cover skills can be schemed around if not too awful. But the inability of your CBs to force the run back inside where they have help... that's a lot harder to hide.

76Texan
08-08-2013, 09:46 AM
A lot of corners have a strength in one coverage over another. I know I did and I played the position for years. Some excel in press but if you ask them to play off the receiver they show issues maintaining. Some can play man and are weak in zone, while some player cover 2 better than say cover 3. It is on the coaches to put the player in a position to excel or develop the player to fit their own scheme. Obviously Bush could not do that and Wade is doing it.

So just because McCourty struggled in press didn't make him less pro-ready. He had already displayed he was capable of dealing with speed of the game and the mechanics involved. He just has his strength and weaknesses like several players in the league.

The problem with this argument is that Belichik wanted to start leaving McCourty on island a little more toward the end of his rookie year and he couldn't handle it.

Again, Belichik wanted to do it in McCourty's second year; he still couldn't handle it, which prompted the move to safety.

It wasn't that Belichik didn't want McCourty to be able to play man, but that he had a good plan to try to bring McCourty along while Bush threw Jackson out to the wolves.

Even Kubiak had to admitted in the off-season, particular at the combine when he was asked about it. Kubiak admitted that the coaches put Jackson in some precarious positions.

Again, why did you guys think both safeties were let go?
If they had done their jobs, they would have been retained.
What was the first thing Wade did when he came in?
He let them safeties go; they brought in Manning and moved Quin to safety.
If Wade didn't think Jackson has the making of a good CB, he would have let Quin stay at CB and moved Jackson to safety. After all, Jackson had clearly demonstrated that he has the skill set to play safety. He plays help defense very well. He can play facing the ball; he's physical and can tackle well.

Some of you guys were tearing Jackson down; I was only putting out the facts about McCourty; facts that are supported by the Pats fans and the media up there who are glad that Belichik finally moved him to safety.

76Texan
08-08-2013, 10:03 AM
Those same DB's were respectable the year before. They were a part of the team having it's first winning season and everyone was excited about What Pollard brought to the secondary.

This was my main problem with the Kareem arguments. Even Kareem's current coach came in and said he needed a lot of work. VJ said himself that Kareem was good in the first 10-15 yards but was not very good after that (and that was after some had been saying that for well over a year already).

I disagree with all the film study stuff 76 did, and I still do. I'm not saying those other DB's were perfect, but there is absolutely 0 way you can look at film of the DB's as a fan and definitively decipher which player should have done what. So I don't buy that all the DB's on the team were failing Kareem, when we had raggedy Dunta out there the year before and the DB's weren't that bad.

Now I do blame the coaches for putting him out there as a rookie and not teaching him proper technique. I blame the coaches in general for the lack of talent in that front seven not generating much of a pass rush to help the DB's out.

But Kareem was not good his first year, he was a bit better the next year but still not full time starting caliber...He was awesome last season. Same surrounding DB's as the year before, better Kareem because HE improved.

Who said anything about Jackson being good in his first year, or even his second year? My whole point was that he didn't suck ball, just like when I opined that Myers didn't suck ball.

They both had their bad plays.
They both suffered further by the poor plays around them.

We all know what Pollard can bring, and that was laying wood.
It wasn't new that he was lacking in coverage at the time he arrived in Houston.
That was already discussed at the time.

If you remember, I had brought up plays from time to time with the new secondary. There had been some poor plays as well; like when one of the safeties stepped down and left the post wide open, allowing big TDs that Joseph can't prevent. Those are the same plays that Jackson were maligned for several times.
There was the INT that Jackson made to "save" Joseph, coming from all the way from the other side; that was another play that Jackson was picked on.

There were also good plays when the safeties, either Manning or Quin played it correctly and supported their CBs on time.
There were also plays that Joseph helped Jackson and vice versa.
Joseph came over and knocked the slot out of a few receivers, and Jackson did the same for Joseph.
Or the play when the Texans baited the offense with Jackson leaving the slot receiver and cut underneath the outside receiver to make the INT.
When people said that Aso can cover half of the field himself, it was an exaggeration; he did it with the help from another defender from time to time.
It is still a team game. It doesn't mean that the safety(ies) roll away from Aso on every play. That only happened when he plays for an outside release and use the side line as an extra defender. The same thing applies to either Joseph and Jackson.

noxiousdog
08-08-2013, 10:07 AM
There's elements on both sides, but when you move a CB to safety it's because he can't play CB well enough. CB > Safeties. Look where they are drafted and look at average salaries.

76Texan
08-08-2013, 10:14 AM
Duplicate.

thunderkyss
08-08-2013, 10:52 AM
Those same DB's were respectable the year before. They were a part of the team having it's first winning season and everyone was excited about What Pollard brought to the secondary.


You didn't see a drop off in Eugene Wilson's play between 2009 & 2010? Or maybe there wasn't a drop off, but he was much more effective when the DL was getting the pressure it did in 2009 than it did in 2010.

& we used Pollard totally different in 2009 than we did in 2010. I'm surprised you didn't notice that either.

Baltimore has used Reed the way we did in 2009. When he is used in coverage his effectiveness comes way down.


This was my main problem with the Kareem arguments. Even Kareem's current coach came in and said he needed a lot of work. VJ said himself that Kareem was good in the first 10-15 yards but was not very good after that (and that was after some had been saying that for well over a year already).


& I've said no different. Every rookie coming into the NFL will need a lot of work. It is one of the more difficult positions to learn.


Now I do blame the coaches for putting him out there as a rookie and not teaching him proper technique. I blame the coaches in general for the lack of talent in that front seven not generating much of a pass rush to help the DB's out.


It's no different than Colin Kaepernick, Russell Wilson, & RG3. Their coaches designed their offenses around what they were good at & hid their weaknesses. In 2013, there's going to be less of that & they are going to have to improve.

The Patriots found what McCourty was good at & designed his role around what he could do & hid what he couldn't do. Year two they asked him to evolve, to get better as a Cornerback & he couldn't.

Kareem was put in a bad situation, the coaches expected him to do things most NFL corners can't, play man coverage on an island for the majority of his snaps. He got a new set of coaches who took him back to square 1. Found what he was good at & asked him to do that. They also put a good cast around him, better safeties in Glover Quin & Manning. They improved the CB playing the other side of the field & they "fixed" the pass rush.

Year three, they expected more of him & he delivered.


But Kareem was not good his first year, he was a bit better the next year but still not full time starting caliber...He was awesome last season. Same surrounding DB's as the year before, better Kareem because HE improved.

Maybe you're getting me mixed up with someone else. I never said anything about him not getting better. I never said he was an All-pro as a rookie.

I've always said he played about as well as you can expect a rookie to play. Had he been on another team.... the 2009 Texans or the 2010 Patriots, he would not have got the bad rep he did as a rookie on the 2010 historically bad Texans defense.

Some people said he'll never get better. I said he's got the tools & he's mentally tough. If he doesn't lose his confidence, I think he'll be a #1 CB in this league. I said that in 2010 (more or less).

deucetx
08-08-2013, 11:06 AM
The problem with this argument is that Belichik wanted to start leaving McCourty on island a little more toward the end of his rookie year and he couldn't handle it.

Again, Belichik wanted to do it in McCourty's second year; he still couldn't handle it, which prompted the move to safety.

It wasn't that Belichik didn't want McCourty to be able to play man, but that he had a good plan to try to bring McCourty along while Bush threw Jackson out to the wolves.

Even Kubiak had to admitted in the off-season, particular at the combine when he was asked about it. Kubiak admitted that the coaches put Jackson in some precarious positions.

Some of you guys were tearing Jackson down; I was only putting out the facts about McCourty; facts that are supported by the Pats fans and the media up there who are glad that Belichik finally moved him to safety.

You're reaching by trying to say you know the precise reason why Belichek moved him to safety especially since Bill doesn't divulge that type of info in the first place. He seldom let's anything go or misdirects. In fact, some of the info out there points to the main reason being due to injuries since they were rather thin at the position at the time and feeling he had the capabiity to play it.

Reaching on the end of his rookie year as well. He allowed not even 50 yards receiving on him in his last 8 games except one (62 yards allowed) so he didn't show any issue toward the end. The longest reception he allowed was 24 yards during that time as well.

And of course if Belichek didn't think he could play corner at all he wouldn't have turned around and again played the spot in 2012 where he got over 500 snaps til Talib was acquired. And then he played it a couple of more days during camp. In other words, Belichek sees him as flexible and capable in both areas (this is somthing he actually does state). He may be better at one over the other but doesn't mean he isn't able.

I already stated the difference in coaching has a effect so nothing to add there.

Now saying your 'facts' are proven by the media and fans is also a reach. There are mixed opinions out there from fans. I saw one poll illustrating that most want him to play both spots i.e. Charles Woodson while the second place vote leader was leaving him at corner. So those opinions (which is al they are) went both ways.

Same for the media. I saw one article saying he should stay at corner. I saw another saying stay at safety. So using these as 'facts' is a bit far fetched. It's an opinion one way or another.

And of course there is the biggest question of why does it even matter? He's not a Texan so how he is progressing means jack crap. Only care about how Texans progress.

76Texan
08-08-2013, 03:15 PM
OK, Deuce, I call a truce.

I need something else to do. :fostering:

rush2112mn
08-10-2013, 06:01 PM
Yeah....I remember all the Texan fans who hated Kareem...(now they hate Schuab).....its funny how the goat on the team changes......
Its sad actually that there are some non intelligent Texan fans who have no grasp of what is actually going on and were going to get rid of the guy after 1 season....ready to just say...."wasted pIck".....those fans now are going....."best cb ever".....funny as hell actually......

EllisUnit
08-10-2013, 08:12 PM
Yeah....I remember all the Texan fans who hated Kareem...(now they hate Schuab).....its funny how the goat on the team changes......
Its sad actually that there are some non intelligent Texan fans who have no grasp of what is actually going on and were going to get rid of the guy after 1 season....ready to just say...."wasted pIck".....those fans now are going....."best cb ever".....funny as hell actually......

Atleast i admitted i was wrong. And come on man he didnt have one of the worst rookie years i have ever seen.

rush2112mn
08-10-2013, 08:36 PM
Atleast i admitted i was wrong. And come on man he didnt have one of the worst rookie years i have ever seen.

Yeah....well everyone calling in every week to sports talk wanted him gone.....all the booing he got every game......and the sports writers as well....they all gave up on him.....

thunderkyss
08-10-2013, 08:58 PM
Yeah....well everyone calling in every week to sports talk wanted him gone.....all the booing he got every game......and the sports writers as well....they all gave up on him.....

Let it go.

We're going to win the Super Bowl this year. Looking back only makes it harder.

DocBar
08-10-2013, 09:58 PM
I hated on him and publicly praised both KJ and 76Texan for their beliefs in KJ. As of right now, he has it to do again. One good year doesn't make a great player. I hope he picks up where he left off and QB's simply have nowhere to the throw the ball.

gafftop
08-11-2013, 05:34 PM
Still not on board with KJ. Obviously better each year. Still doesn't look for ball enough. Still seems to chase a lot. We will see. I hope I am wrong.

Don't remember specifically how he did against GB and the Pats.

76Texan
08-11-2013, 05:59 PM
Still not on board with KJ. Obviously better each year. Still doesn't look for ball enough. Still seems to chase a lot. We will see. I hope I am wrong.

Don't remember specifically how he did against GB and the Pats.

If you don't remember, it's a good sign for a DB.

Texn4life
08-11-2013, 06:12 PM
If you don't remember, it's a good sign for a DB.

Perfect Answer! Rep!

gafftop
08-13-2013, 08:26 PM
http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Packers-vs-Texans-highlights/14ae0b1d-4990-4327-a062-6275226e242b

76Texan
08-13-2013, 08:36 PM
http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Packers-vs-Texans-highlights/14ae0b1d-4990-4327-a062-6275226e242b

Rodgers was in a zone in that game.
He put the ball in places that make it hard for the defenders, and his receivers made some great catches as well.

Over the course of a season, CBs will have balls caught on him.
The question is how often and how good or bad the coverages were in the whole body work.

Many in here thought that Jackson actually had a better than JJo who was dealing with an injury for several games.

gafftop
08-14-2013, 09:48 AM
Rodgers was in a zone in that game.
He put the ball in places that make it hard for the defenders, and his receivers made some great catches as well.

Over the course of a season, CBs will have balls caught on him.
The question is how often and how good or bad the coverages were in the whole body work.

Many in here thought that Jackson actually had a better than JJo who was dealing with an injury for several games.

Could not agree more with this statement. I do think healthy JJo is better than KJ because he has better ball skills. I do think KJ is better now than I thought he would ever be based on his start. I guess I still don't trust KJ against the better QB's that we are going to need to beat in the playoffs because he still just plays the receiver and not the ball in many situations. A better pass rush is going to be critical when we get in these tougher games because a great QB/receiver combo will win if given time. I guess overall I do agree with original premise of post.

thunderkyss
08-14-2013, 10:55 AM
I guess I still don't trust KJ against the better QB's that we are going to need to beat in the playoffs because he still just plays the receiver and not the ball in many situations. .

To be fair, there are very few CBs I trust against these QBs we're talking about.

HJam72
08-14-2013, 01:23 PM
To be fair, there are very few CBs I trust against these QBs we're talking about.

Yes, this is why I hate these QBs we're talking about.

b0ng
08-14-2013, 02:24 PM
I guess I still don't trust KJ against the better QB's that we are going to need to beat in the playoffs because he still just plays the receiver and not the ball in many situations.

CB's whom I trust against Aaron Rodgers/Brady/Manning:

1. Darrelle Revis
2. Richard Sher- welp nope, lost to Kaepernick so he's out
3. Ladarius We- nope, team won SB when he wasn't there so he's out
4. Jonathan Jo- nope, lost to brady so he's out
5. Peanut Tillm- nope, loses to Aaron Rodg on the reg

Huh, it's weird, it's almost like since the rules favor the offense so much there really isn't a corner not named Revis whom one could trust against better QB's.

fiasco west
08-14-2013, 02:56 PM
Still not on board with KJ. Obviously better each year. Still doesn't look for ball enough. Still seems to chase a lot. We will see. I hope I am wrong.

Don't remember specifically how he did against GB and the Pats.

Lol wow. I think you're just being stubborn now.

With that said I'm happy I'm not one of the ones eating crow in this. I always give young players a few years.

ensign_lee
08-14-2013, 03:23 PM
I remember being elated when we signed Jonathan Joseph because I thought that Kareem had no real mentor to each him how to succeed in the NFL. Instances of "Hey, when you see xxx, you should try doing yyy; That screwed me up when I first started in the league" never occurred because nobody could mentor/teach Kareem.

Kareem Jackson was one of the biggest benefactors of Jonathan Joseph's signing.

Mr teX
08-14-2013, 04:12 PM
Asomugha was considered a shut down guy for years until Victor Cruz salsa-danced all over him in 1 game. After that, qb's started having their way with him.

I remember Moss catching that 1 handed TD bomb from Brady over Revis. Teams started going at Revis a little harder after that.

a perfect throw / a great WR can make the great coverage null and void.

I say all that to say that Kareem is just getting to the point where he's coming out of the red from that disasterous rookie season. Dude has evolved as a solid starting cb. Noone should criticize him for that GB b/c Rodgers was dropping dimes tha night...i remember one of the announcers saying "kareem jackson was in James Jones' shirt and it didn't even matter." That happened more than 1 time that night.

Plus who can forget how KJ pretty much took Calvin Johnson out of the game in the 2nd of that Detroit game last year when he asked VJ to "let me chase him"?

gafftop
08-25-2013, 04:29 PM
Still not on board with KJ. Obviously better each year. Still doesn't look for ball enough. Still seems to chase a lot. We will see. I hope I am wrong.

Don't remember specifically how he did against GB and the Pats.

Not a KJ hater but....

Playoffs
08-25-2013, 04:37 PM
Not a KJ hater but....

This is the KJ thread, not the JJoe one. :truck:

thunderkyss
08-25-2013, 08:06 PM
Our secondary looked bad today. Jjo, Kjax, McCain, Keo, Swearinger, Manning. ..

There's enough to go around..

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

chicagotexan2
08-25-2013, 09:04 PM
Still not on board with KJ. Obviously better each year. Still doesn't look for ball enough. Still seems to chase a lot. We will see. I hope I am wrong.

Don't remember specifically how he did against GB and the Pats.

This here. I thought smith blew it picking Jackson but the man really turned it around. Now he is a solid cover corner but I really wish he make a play on the ball more often.

ObsiWan
08-25-2013, 09:34 PM
Our secondary looked bad today. Jjo, Kjax, McCain, Keo, Swearinger, Manning. ..

There's enough to go around..

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

It's simple folks; elite QBs vs. Wade's D = bad for us.

thunderkyss
08-26-2013, 01:59 AM
It's simple folks; elite QBs vs. Wade's D = bad for us.

Since when did Luke McCown become elite?

Brees took a seat after their first TD.

EllisUnit
08-26-2013, 03:33 AM
Since when did Luke McCown become elite?

Brees took a seat after their first TD.

To be fair........................those were some dang good back ups :toropalm:

hradhak
08-26-2013, 06:08 AM
KJ has certainly come a long way. He gets good coverage on his guy. I was a little surprised when I saw him yesterday. The passes that came his way had to be perfect to get completions. Elite QBs will do that.

Our shutting down of elite QBs comes down to how good our nickel and dime coverage is. If Keo is out on the field, God help us all.

deucetx
08-26-2013, 07:49 AM
It's simple folks; elite QBs vs. Wade's D = bad for us.

I think folks forget some games because we won. Chad Henne is not elite nor is Matthew Stafford and both ate this defense for lunch. Spread against man to man across the board is a dangerous thing.

But I don't think that is the coverage we'll run against the spread this season. Just a hunch because Reed is not at his best going man to man but helping up top, reading the play and reacting. We didn't see that this game and I don't think they will show the changes they made in the preseason. So just wild (and hopeful!) speculation on my part.

potisyourfriend
08-26-2013, 08:25 PM
I think we'll be fine with our backfield once all of our starters are in. A good D-Line makes most backfields look good.

ObsiWan
08-27-2013, 07:25 PM
Since when did Luke McCown become elite?

Brees took a seat after their first TD.

Allow me to rephrase that statement.

Competent QBs effectively running (some form of) spread offense vs. Wade's D = Serious Match up issues for us.

We have two corners who can cover (most of the time, no CB covers ALL the time) but the slot guys (TEs and RBs with some speed and quick shifty WRs) quite frequently eat our LBs and safeties for lunch.

This isn't news.
We need serious pressure from whoever lines up at OLB. And cover guys who jam/disrupt those slot guys at the line would be nice too.

drs23
08-27-2013, 08:01 PM
Allow me to rephrase that statement.

Competent QBs effectively running (some form of) spread offense vs. Wade's D = Serious Match up issues for us.

We have two corners who can cover (most of the time, no CB covers ALL the time) but the slot guys (TEs and RBs with some speed and quick shifty WRs) quite frequently eat our LBs and safeties for lunch.

This isn't news.
We need serious pressure from whoever lines up at OLB. And cover guys who jam/disrupt those slot guys at the line would be nice too.

Thank you. Well said.

burro
08-27-2013, 10:26 PM
I was as down on him as anybody but, in fairness, I don't think anyone could have foreseen the amount of improvement he's made. Nothing about his rookie season said 'potential'.

It's amazing what a real DC can do.

HJam72
08-28-2013, 07:54 AM
he has improved greatly but he's still far from a great corner. He still doesnt turn his head around when defending long pass attempts.

I really wish we took a chance on tyrone mathieu. he was there for the taking.

I don't think McNair would take on someone with his reputation.

Blake
08-28-2013, 08:01 AM
Kareem gets the last laugh. Well done! *clap*

HOU-TEX
08-28-2013, 09:01 AM
he has improved greatly but he's still far from a great corner. He still doesnt turn his head around when defending long pass attempts.

I really wish we took a chance on tyrone mathieu. he was there for the taking.

Yes, he does. There might be an exception or two, but for the most part, he's 100% better at locating the ball.

He had darn near perfect coverage on the long ball the other night. The ball was thrown perfectly. And, he did turn his head. The ball was just out of his reach

76Texan
08-28-2013, 09:09 AM
he has improved greatly but he's still far from a great corner. He still doesnt turn his head around when defending long pass attempts.

I really wish we took a chance on tyrone mathieu. he was there for the taking.

Mathieu is gonna play FS and nickel for the Cards.
If you watch his game; he's a dynamic little bug that has exceptional quickness to make play on the ball the vast majority of the time in the short game or when he faces the ball.
There was only one INT he had deep where the QB made a poor throw to the inside; I think it was against the Gators on a medium ball.
His chance of covering the big receivers in the NFL is slim; all the QB needs to do is to go upstairs.
He also has value as a return man, but if you put him outside at CB, I'm pretty sure he will be more of a liability than an asset.

HOU-TEX
08-28-2013, 09:13 AM
Speaking of the Cardinals, their color commentator is absolutely hilarious. Ron Wolf I think. An old school Cardinals FB. Hysterical!!

Mr teX
08-28-2013, 10:56 AM
Yes, he does. There might be an exception or two, but for the most part, he's 100% better at locating the ball.

He had darn near perfect coverage on the long ball the other night. The ball was thrown perfectly. And, he did turn his head. The ball was just out of his reach

This...People don't understand how difficult it is for a cb to turn, locate & make a play on the ball. Can't blast him for something 98% of the leagues cb's can't do consistently.

In coverage...man coverage specifically, cb's are taught to read the WR's. only look back & locate the ball in the air when the WR looks back &/or they raise their hands for the catch b/c it lets them know that the ball is coming.

WR coaches know this. So they in turn train their WR's to look back for the ball and only raise their hands at the last possible second to give the cb as little time as possible to locate the ball & react.

All told if everything is clicking for the offense as it should, it's probably about .05 -1 seconds (2 seconds for deep balls) that a cb has to turn, locate the ball in the air and react to make a play if possible...extremely difficult. This is 1 of the main reasons the back shoulder throw is so hard to defend.

There are other factors that come into play, but this is the overriding thing to fight against.

Truthfully, Revis is the only guy who can do it equally well in zone & man coverage.

thunderkyss
09-25-2013, 06:51 PM
I hate watching Football on TV, especially when the commentator describes a play & he's totally wrong. I know at full speed it's difficult to determine what actually happened & for the most part, they do the best they can. What really gets me is when they show a play again & again in slow motion & you can clearly see the commentator was mistaken, instead of saying, "Oh, I was wrong, this is what really happened." They continue saying whatever it was they said originally.

I hate Chris Collinsworth, but he's usually pretty good about correcting himself when he's wrong. Dan Dierdorf, who I love, isn't.

On Kareem's first PI call, he says Kareem failed to turn around & play the ball. The replay clearly showed from two different angles that Kareem did in fact turn around & locate the ball.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/20130923_183116_zpsb9d1fc8a.jpg

They show another view (which I failed to take a picture of) that clearly shows an arm bar... a hard arm bar several steps before the ball got to the receiver.

There is a misconception among fans & commentators alike that a DB will be called for Pass Interference if he does not look for the ball. However, it is not Pass interference if the DB never interferes with the catch. Kareem shows us a good example of that here. There is contact with the receiver, but no interference.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/20130925_173136_zps95d3d1eb.jpg

This probably should have been called PI, since there is contact early but at this point I think it would have been "ticky tack" Even if Kareem would have turned his head, it could have been called PI if he makes contact with the receiver. Not only does he have to turn his head, but he has to be making a play on the ball. Turning his head while making contact with the receiver is still PI.

This is another example, provided by our friend Kareem Jackson. Again, Deirdorf cites not turning his head as the primary reason this is called pass interference.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/20130925_173035_zps07f31085.jpg

But Kareem's head is clearly turned, looking at the ball, making a play at the ball with his left hand. What you can't see, is what he's doing with his right hand.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/20130925_173227_zps7cb7599d.jpg

He's got a hold of Tandon Doss's wrist the whole time. That's pass interference.

If you remember some of my posts from the past, about Brandon Harris & the PIs he got last year, in one of them I stated I don't think I would try to correct them. If you can remember Harriss's PIs, they were all about him fighting for position with the receiver. One was within 5 yards of the LOS, or at least close enough that I thought it should have been a no call. The other, Reggie Wayne was trying to punk him & gain position. Harris held his ground & imo, he flag should have been thrown on Wayne.

Those PIs are about being aggressive & "defending" your position. I'll live with those. I don't want mice out there trying to play a man's game. I can live with a bad call, I'm not going to coach my players to play timid.

These, by Kareem are not the same kind. These are the things you coach your players not to do. Referees were really hard on the arm bar a few years ago, nowadays they usually let the guys play, but if they call it, you don't have a leg to stand on. The second, if they didn't call it a complete pass, they probably would have thrown the flag.... but it's ticky tack at that point. The third one, if you watch it all the way through, he not only has possession of the receiver's wrist, he pulls it down & pretty much throws Doss to the ground, making it extremely obvious.

gafftop
09-25-2013, 10:19 PM
The way KJ plays he will get called for PI more often than not. The other problem is the way he plays D limits his chance for TOs. This team is going to need TOs to compete. The more disturbing issue is JJo is starting to play D like KJ. Don't know if Wade has the secondary to play like he wants to play.

dream_team
09-25-2013, 11:14 PM
The way KJ plays he will get called for PI more often than not. The other problem is the way he plays D limits his chance for TOs. This team is going to need TOs to compete. The more disturbing issue is JJo is starting to play D like KJ. Don't know if Wade has the secondary to play like he wants to play.

If we want interceptions, we need to play more zone. Zone allows the DBs to read the QB and locate the ball a lot easier. It's a lot more difficult to get picks playing man coverage.

infantrycak
09-25-2013, 11:59 PM
If we want interceptions, we need to play more zone. Zone allows the DBs to read the QB and locate the ball a lot easier. It's a lot more difficult to get picks playing man coverage.

We had 15 INTs last year and 17 in 2011. We are on pace for 5.3 right now.

thunderkyss
09-26-2013, 04:50 AM
The way KJ plays he will get called for PI more often than not. The other problem is the way he plays D limits his chance for TOs. This team is going to need TOs to compete. The more disturbing issue is JJo is starting to play D like KJ. Don't know if Wade has the secondary to play like he wants to play.

Jjo had his hands on one, so did Manning. They just need to finish the play.

HOU-TEX
09-26-2013, 09:00 AM
The primary reason why I'd like us to mix in more zone this game is to be able to keep a side-eye on Russell. Man coverage vs a QB that can run like him could be detrimental on 3rd downs

thunderkyss
09-26-2013, 10:50 AM
The primary reason why I'd like us to mix in more zone this game is to be able to keep a side-eye on Russell. Man coverage vs a QB that can run like him could be detrimental on 3rd downs

Mix in more zone on 3rd downs. Yes, we definitely need to do more of that. 1st & 2nd, we play plenty of zone already.

76Texan
09-26-2013, 12:41 PM
The way KJ plays he will get called for PI more often than not. The other problem is the way he plays D limits his chance for TOs. This team is going to need TOs to compete. The more disturbing issue is JJo is starting to play D like KJ. Don't know if Wade has the secondary to play like he wants to play.

If we want interceptions, we need to play more zone. Zone allows the DBs to read the QB and locate the ball a lot easier. It's a lot more difficult to get picks playing man coverage.

I have a strong feeling that it is exactly the way Wade wants his CBs to play.

I have no idea why some of these TV guys are still employed.
Somebody suggested that he will turn off the TV sound for this game, and will go with the radio broadcast instead. I didn't blame him one bit.