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TheDrifter
08-22-2013, 12:13 AM
One thing to take into consideration is that the draft used to be a LOT longer. In 1973, the draft was 17 rounds long. And guys in the 17th round actually made teams and played on them. All these UDFA's would have been drafted if there were more rounds.


Also, Im not sure how true that assertion is to begin with, especially for QBs who are probably the most heavily scouted position in pro sports.

The league has one UDFA starting, and only two more from the last four rounds.

thunderkyss
08-22-2013, 08:56 AM
There's also a growing number of UDFA's excelling in the NFL while highly drafted players are proving to be busts.


My comments do not contradict this one bit.


Case Keenum has shown a very high NFL IQ and an ability to learn and be coached up.

& that has more to do with his future in the NFL than any success he's had at the collegiate level.


Truth be told, I'm wondering why more UDFA QBs don't have success in the NFL. If it is important for a QB to sit for a year or two, learn a system & get acclimated to the NFL, we should see more of these guys to offset the 1st & 2nd rounders who get drafted & pressed into service early.

rmartin65
08-22-2013, 09:02 AM
Truth be told, I'm wondering why more UDFA QBs don't have success in the NFL. If it is important for a QB to sit for a year or two, learn a system & get acclimated to the NFL, we should see more of these guys to offset the 1st & 2nd rounders who get drafted & pressed into service early.

Because, by and large, early round picks are more talented than UDFAs. A rushed elite talent will always be better than a scrub who gets years to learn the system.

Carr Bombed
08-22-2013, 09:07 AM
The # of quality QBs is the deepest its probably ever been in the history of the NFL (just look at last year's class.. which Keenum is also part of). As more college spread & zone read concepts make their way into the NFL and with the way rules now favor offenses, it's going to be easier and easier for these kids to make a impact from day one and have succes in the league.

maddogmrb
08-22-2013, 10:11 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFw3ZNZQQ4M

I'll take this 'weak arm' any day of the week ... not to mention everything else he brings to the table ...

eriadoc
08-22-2013, 10:31 AM
Because, by and large, early round picks are more talented than UDFAs. A rushed elite talent will always be better than a scrub who gets years to learn the system.

Only if you accept the assumption that the scouting is done properly. Plenty of elite talent has fallen through the cracks. Foster is a perfect example. He's one of the three or four best RBs in the NFL (2nd, in my book), but he wasn't drafted for reasons that were not related to talent.

We'll see how it pans out for Keenum, but the talent evaluation on him was wrong, and continues to be wrong. His arm is just fine, he has more athleticism than many starting QBs, and he definitely has the drive, work ethic, and mental capacity for the position. The only real question was/is experience. He played in a weird system at UH, didn't take snaps under center, and didn't face NFL style defenses. So it's fair to question if he can conquer those challenges. I think he can, but we'll see. But I think any question of his talent is off base. He may not be as talented as guys like Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers, but he's more athletic than Schaub. His arm is at least as good as Schaub's. His mobility in the pocket is better than average.

I don't see the knock on talent. Unless you count height as talent, and even then, it's not like he's getting balls batted down or missing reads.

rmartin65
08-22-2013, 10:37 AM
Only if you accept the assumption that the scouting is done properly. Plenty of elite talent has fallen through the cracks. Foster is a perfect example. He's one of the three or four best RBs in the NFL (2nd, in my book), but he wasn't drafted for reasons that were not related to talent.


Hence the "by and large" part of my post. Generally speaking, those drafted in the first are more talented than those drafted in the second, who are in turn more talented than those taken in the 3rd, etc. Certainly scouting is not perfect- there are too many variables. Take a random UDFA QB out of a list and a random 1st round QB, and see which one you want. Odds are, it will be the 1st rounder.

76Texan
08-22-2013, 11:19 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFw3ZNZQQ4M

I'll take this 'weak arm' any day of the week ... not to mention everything else he brings to the table ...

Weak arm Keenum:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=AaltTgbUxV0

76Texan
08-22-2013, 11:24 AM
Weak arm with a wet ball:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xVlMNrHct2I&feature=related

Notice how fart the kick returner was?
That's Carrier, and he's not even the fastest receiver on the team.

badboy
08-22-2013, 01:15 PM
Weak arm with a wet ball:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xVlMNrHct2I&feature=related

Notice how fart the kick returner was?
That's Carrier, and he's not even the fastest receiver on the team.

If the KR was farting around it might have been Jacoby Jones. just saying...

The Pencil Neck
08-22-2013, 02:44 PM
I kind of like the idea of eliminating the draft. Give the teams their rookie pools (the bad teams get more money), and let them negotiate with the players on an individual basis. If a team wanted to throw their entire pool at a Luck or RG3, OK. That means they're worth that $$$. You couldn't televise it, but it would place an emphasis on money management and talent identification.

BTW, Deacon Jones (186th overall (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JoneDe00.htm)) and Bart Starr (200th overall (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StarBa00.htm)) would have been drafted in the current draft system (256 picks). What you have to remember is that there were fewer teams (12-14) in the NFL in the 50's and 60's, so the rounds were much shorter.

Excellent point. I was just looking at the number of rounds, not the number of picks.

76Texan
08-22-2013, 03:41 PM
Excellent point. I was just looking at the number of rounds, not the number of picks.

Yeah, but the pool of talent is much bigger now with many more football programs and a growing population. More kids are being developed at an early age with better techniques by more qualified coaches.
Technology has made game film more readily available in higher quality making it feasible to study more players in the same amount of time.
Road and transportation is better allowing easier access to all areas.

Compare with twenty years ago, for example, there might be twice the number of draftable players.

The tendency of keeping drafted players by coaches over UDFAs are slowly changing.

Last year, opening day rosters included 412 former UDFAs vs. 277 former first rounders.
412 is a number larger than the combined total of 5th, 6th, and 7th rounders.
Every team in the league, except one, had at least one UDFA starter on its squad.

http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootball/index.ssf/2013/05/analysis_alec_lemon_zack_chiba.html

76Texan
08-22-2013, 03:44 PM
Hence the "by and large" part of my post. Generally speaking, those drafted in the first are more talented than those drafted in the second, who are in turn more talented than those taken in the 3rd, etc. Certainly scouting is not perfect- there are too many variables. Take a random UDFA QB out of a list and a random 1st round QB, and see which one you want. Odds are, it will be the 1st rounder.

Interestingly, according to the same article above, there were 2 more 4th rounders than 3rd rounders in the NFL.

Also, there were many more 7th rounders than 6th rounders.

rmartin65
08-22-2013, 04:07 PM
Interestingly, according to the same article above, there were 2 more 4th rounders than 3rd rounders in the NFL.

Also, there were many more 7th rounders than 6th rounders.

Can the amount of compensatory picks in each round account for the difference?

Look guys, I am not saying that just because Player X was taken higher than Player Y, Player X is better than Player Y. I am just saying that, generally speaking, the more talented players are drafted higher than the less talented players. Its the reason for the draft- to give the worst teams the first crack at the best talent.

76Texan
08-22-2013, 04:21 PM
Can the amount of compensatory picks in each round account for the difference?

Look guys, I am not saying that just because Player X was taken higher than Player Y, Player X is better than Player Y. I am just saying that, generally speaking, the more talented players are drafted higher than the less talented players. Its the reason for the draft- to give the worst teams the first crack at the best talent.

It looks to be the case for the top two rounds, but it seems to be more of a scrapshoot otherwise.

It's really hard to know for sure (regarding players outside the first two rounds) because the higher a player is picked, the more teams have been willing to give them more opportunities to play.

Speedy
08-22-2013, 04:38 PM
Can the amount of compensatory picks in each round account for the difference?

Look guys, I am not saying that just because Player X was taken higher than Player Y, Player X is better than Player Y. I am just saying that, generally speaking, the more talented players are drafted higher than the less talented players. Its the reason for the draft- to give the worst teams the first crack at the best talent.

And even then they don't get it right. Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Charles Rodgers, J.P Losman was taken in the 1st in the same draft Schaub was taken in the 3rd, Troy Williamson (who?) 7th overall, JaMarcus Russell, Amobi Okoye, Mark Buttfumble (5th overall), and on and on and on.

Knowshon Moreno, Donald Brown and Beanie Wells were the RBs taken in the 1st round of the draft Arian Foster was not drafted. Glen Coffee, Gartrell Johnson, Frank Summers, Aaron Brown, James Davis and Fui Vakapuna were RBs taken in that draft instead of Foster.

There's no science to this. Yeah, you're chances of hitting on a player may be better with a 1st rounder, but a 1st rounder can bomb just as easily as a UDFA makes it no matter what the scouts say, what info you have or anything. You don't know 'til you get on the field and play with the big boys, the pros, the best.

infantrycak
08-22-2013, 04:56 PM
People are letting their desire to prop a UDFA let them stretch to some pretty silly statements.

Case's play so far has been good enough he doesn't need that kind of support.

76Texan
08-22-2013, 05:23 PM
Can the amount of compensatory picks in each round account for the difference?

Look guys, I am not saying that just because Player X was taken higher than Player Y, Player X is better than Player Y. I am just saying that, generally speaking, the more talented players are drafted higher than the less talented players. Its the reason for the draft- to give the worst teams the first crack at the best talent.

I was going through the NFL rosters from A to I, and even I was surprised at the number of starters on all these teams.

You figure with 22 starting spots on each team, one should find just one or maybe two UDFA starters, but nope. Teams have two, three, and even four of them. Many of them have been long-time starters; some have turned in good season(s) recently. I was surprised at many of the names as they are really good players or budding young talents.

Interestingly, the Browns were the team that had no UDFA as starter.
Coincidence???

rmartin65
08-22-2013, 07:11 PM
There's no science to this. Yeah, you're chances of hitting on a player may be better with a 1st rounder, but a 1st rounder can bomb just as easily as a UDFA makes it no matter what the scouts say, what info you have or anything. You don't know 'til you get on the field and play with the big boys, the pros, the best.


Show me where I have refuted this. Again, I ask you- would you rather make a blind pick out of all the first round QBs of the last 10 years, or a blind pick of all the UDFA QBs who have gotten a chance in an NFL training camp over the same time period?

I was going through the NFL rosters from A to I, and even I was surprised at the number of starters on all these teams.

You figure with 22 starting spots on each team, one should find just one or maybe two UDFA starters, but nope. Teams have two, three, and even four of them. Many of them have been long-time starters; some have turned in good season(s) recently. I was surprised at many of the names as they are really good players or budding young talents.

Interestingly, the Browns were the team that had no UDFA as starter.
Coincidence???

Yes, I am going to say coincidence. There is no reason why the lack of a UDFA starter would be the reason why the Browns suck. You guys are getting ridiculous in your attempts to defend Keenum. Keenum's play is defending him, not some silly-ass half-cocked circumstantial arguments.

76Texan
08-22-2013, 07:18 PM
Yes, I am going to say coincidence. There is no reason why the lack of a UDFA starter would be the reason why the Browns suck. You guys are getting ridiculous in your attempts to defend Keenum. Keenum's play is defending him, not some silly-ass half-cocked circumstantial arguments.

Nowhere in my posts about the number of UDFAs on NFL rosters has anything to do with "defending" Keenum.

You know me better than that.
I prefer to let the play on the field speak for itself.

We were discussing about talents and the drafts.

I just completed the whole list of all 32 teams, and I found it interesting that there are so many starters on them.

The highest number is the Pats with six;
There were 2 teams with five.
It averages out to about 3 per team.
That was much more than I thought.
And more than half of these guys are actually very good players with a few great ones at their position.

Showtime100
08-22-2013, 08:52 PM
I just clicked this thread by habit and realized I don't have it in me to talk/read any further on the subject until maybe next week.

Not even a complaint, just a spontaneous observation. Carry on. :texflag:

badboy
08-22-2013, 09:21 PM
I just clicked this thread by habit and realized I don't have it in me to talk/read any further on the subject until maybe next week.

Not even a complaint, just a spontaneous observation. Carry on. :texflag:Thanks for sharing! :ant:

DocBar
08-22-2013, 10:19 PM
I just clicked this thread by habit and realized I don't have it in me to talk/read any further on the subject until maybe next week.

Not even a complaint, just a spontaneous observation. Carry on. :texflag:Nobody likes a quitter. :kitten:

I do the same thing, thread after thread. I'm also used to people not liking me, though. :thinking:

Showtime100
08-22-2013, 10:24 PM
I didn't realize what I said was offensive. I actually went out of my way to say "not a complaint." Sorry if I stepped on any toes.

I love this thread. In fact it's been one of the more interesting preseason threads I can recall for some time and thought I was making a post laughing at myself more than anything. I'm sure to be back enjoying the posts after the next game. :)

:worldpeace:

thunderkyss
08-23-2013, 06:37 AM
... thought I was making a post laughing at myself more than anything.

Just leave the laughing at you to us buddy..... we don't need your help.

:kitten:

speedfreek
08-23-2013, 01:20 PM
Yates is #2 off the bench against the saints. I hope this means
Keenum starts against Big D.

(man I want him to look good against Jerruh)

TJ

DX-TEX
08-23-2013, 01:21 PM
Houston Texans ‏@HoustonTexans 33m
RT @DoughertyDrew: QB @TJ_Yates will be first off bench after Matt Schaub, according to Kubiak.
Expand

TJ wins.:slapfight:

Thorn
08-23-2013, 01:23 PM
TJ wins.:slapfight:

I would consider it a win if both Yates and Keenum were on the final 53 and back in camp next year.

Carr Bombed
08-23-2013, 01:25 PM
Yates is #2 off the bench against the saints. I hope this means
Keenum starts against Big D.

(man I want him to look good against Jerruh)

TJ

It does (assuming Keenum doesn't fall on his face against the Saints). Kubiak said his decision is not based on performance.. said TJ was the first one up week one, Keenum week 2, and he wants to rotate starts. Said he'll try to split the time equally and see how it unfolds.

Carr Bombed
08-23-2013, 01:28 PM
I would consider it a win if both Yates and Keenum were on the final 53 and back in camp next year.

At this point, I think that's pretty certain to happen now.

Thorn
08-23-2013, 01:33 PM
At this point, I think that's pretty certain to happen now.

I hope so. As big a Keenum fan as I am, and I am, I only want him to succeed and make the team because he earned it. I was a Texans fan long before Keenum showed up.

I just think it would be totally cool if hometown boy UH QB college star become our NFL big time star. I'll continue to drink the Keenum Kool-Aid until the bottle runs dry. LOL

Rey
08-23-2013, 01:48 PM
I don't care who wins the back up job really. I just would like both to be on the roster.

76Texan
08-23-2013, 01:59 PM
They both will have to earn the right to be on the roster; it's that simple for me.:cool:

Carr Bombed
08-23-2013, 02:15 PM
I hope so. As big a Keenum fan as I am, and I am, I only want him to succeed and make the team because he earned it. I was a Texans fan long before Keenum showed up.

I just think it would be totally cool if hometown boy UH QB college star become our NFL big time star. I'll continue to drink the Keenum Kool-Aid until the bottle runs dry. LOL

I hardly ever watched him play in college (UT fan..), which is why I find it funny when people act like the only people who are excited and support Keenum are UH homers.

Carr Bombed
08-23-2013, 02:19 PM
They both will have to earn the right to be on the roster; it's that simple for me.:cool:

Pretty sure they've already done that.. from here on out both guys will have to play really bad football and play their way out of a spot in order to not make the final cut. After what happened in 2011, I don't think Kubiak doesn't want to not have a third option.

Rey
08-23-2013, 02:21 PM
I hardly ever watched him play in college (UT fan..), which is why I find it funny when people act like the only people who are excited and support Keenum are UH homers.

I watched Keenum play a few plays in his whole career. And it was in his senior year when they were undefeated and lost that last reg season game. That's it.

But I have gone back and watched some clips and I've seen every snap he's taken as a Texan.

I'm excited about him too. He has a presence about himself this season. And the way he moves and makes quick decisions and quickly gets the ball out with accuracy and velocity is very impressive.

thunderkyss
08-23-2013, 02:24 PM
Yates is #2 off the bench against the saints. I hope this means
Keenum starts against Big D.

(man I want him to look good against Jerruh)

TJ

I hope we don't see Tj at all against Dallas.

It should be Keenum, then McGee. Give McGee a chance to win a spot with someone.

infantrycak
08-23-2013, 02:26 PM
After what happened in 2011, I don't think Kubiak doesn't want to not have a third option.

Wow, it isn't often you see someone pull off a triple negative. :worldpeace:

76Texan
08-23-2013, 02:31 PM
Wow, it isn't often you see someone pull off a triple negative. :worldpeace:

Pretty sure they've already done that.. from here on out both guys will have to play really bad football and play their way out of a spot in order to not make the final cut. After what happened in 2011, I don't think Kubiak doesn't want to not have a third option.

That was pretty good though! :ant:

Rey
08-23-2013, 02:32 PM
And it makes sense. That's a good catch.

76Texan
08-23-2013, 02:43 PM
And it makes sense. That's a good catch.

And triple negative with positive connotation, LOL.
I wonder what TPN's reaction is going to be.

The Pencil Neck
08-23-2013, 03:04 PM
And triple negative with positive connotation, LOL.
I wonder what TPN's reaction is going to be.

lol

Dumbstruck with wonder at the glory of it.

Speedy
08-23-2013, 04:33 PM
I don't care who wins the back up job really. I just would like both to be on the roster.

Right. And after Aug 31 I hope we don't hear either one of their names again until Camp 2014.

thunderkyss
08-23-2013, 05:35 PM
Right. And after Aug 31 I hope we don't hear either one of their names again until Camp 2014.

Amen to that.

eriadoc
08-23-2013, 05:36 PM
Right. And after Aug 31 I hope we don't hear either one of their names again until Camp 2014.

As fun as it is to watch Keenum progress and battle it out with Yates, I think we can all agree with that. This sort of interest is what the preseason is for.

speedfreek
08-23-2013, 07:26 PM
Watching the seahawks v. packers I am impressed with the
play of the seahawks o-line. Wilson has a ton of time to look
all over the field.

I think a lot of that is due to his ability to run keeping guys
from just bull-rushing him. They have to hold up to see if
he keeps on the option, and that really buys more time to
go through your progressions..

I would still love to see Gary give Case more 4-wide and
no back sets. Adopting some of these collegiate offenses
has sure helped a few teams.

TJ

BullBlitz
08-23-2013, 09:54 PM
Right. And after Aug 31 I hope we don't hear either one of their names again until Camp 2014.

Actually I'd like to see each of them get some playing time.

ArlingtonTexan
08-23-2013, 10:20 PM
Not to derail this thread with an actual quote or two from the decision maker...

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Texans-Practice-Quotes-August-23/d38d84ea-2bcc-475a-9a6f-1b70c92b3ba1


(on who will come in at quarterback after QB Matt Schaub) “(QB) T.J. (Yates) will go second in this game. What I hope to do is, when Matt does leave the game, whatever is left, I hope to split the time. But T.J. will be the second guy to go.”



(on the decision about how to determine whether QBs T.J. Yates and Case Keenum would come in second) “No, really just kind of went back and forth. T.J. did it the first week and then Case will probably start the game next Thursday depending on how we come out of this. I just think it’s important that we look at equal reps and that’s what we’re doing. They’ve almost got equal throws. They’ve almost got equal plays. That’s what we want to be able to do.”

Carr Bombed
08-23-2013, 11:22 PM
Wow, it isn't often you see someone pull off a triple negative. :worldpeace:

:spit: I didn't even realize I did that.

leebigeztx
08-23-2013, 11:33 PM
Only if you accept the assumption that the scouting is done properly. Plenty of elite talent has fallen through the cracks. Foster is a perfect example. He's one of the three or four best RBs in the NFL (2nd, in my book), but he wasn't drafted for reasons that were not related to talent.

We'll see how it pans out for Keenum, but the talent evaluation on him was wrong, and continues to be wrong. His arm is just fine, he has more athleticism than many starting QBs, and he definitely has the drive, work ethic, and mental capacity for the position. The only real question was/is experience. He played in a weird system at UH, didn't take snaps under center, and didn't face NFL style defenses. So it's fair to question if he can conquer those challenges. I think he can, but we'll see. But I think any question of his talent is off base. He may not be as talented as guys like Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers, but he's more athletic than Schaub. His arm is at least as good as Schaub's. His mobility in the pocket is better than average.

I don't see the knock on talent. Unless you count height as talent, and even then, it's not like he's getting balls batted down or missing reads.

I won't debate the whole point and I always like to use my opinion as a disclaimer. In the case of case,he doesn't have any special qualities.Size,speed,arm,footwork,mobility,etc. In a debate,one could always throw out brady.Brady is the exception more than the rule. Just like brees and wilson are exceptions when the height discussion is involved.If we were just comparing case to schaub,another guy without special qualities,we could say case is a smaller schaub with better feet. A small schaub with better feet will not win a superbowl. So what's the point?

I think case is up against it on this team. I think they're giving him a good look to decide whether or not they want to keep 3qbs or not. With the emergence of guys like jefferson and a guy like posey coming back quicker than expected,case might be back on practice squad. That's not a bad place to be honestly.They can't try to hide some of their emerging young players. I doubt a team would take keenam and put him on the active roster. Jmo.

Carr Bombed
08-23-2013, 11:42 PM
I won't debate the whole point and I always like to use my opinion as a disclaimer. In the case of case,he doesn't have any special qualities.Size,speed,arm,footwork,mobility,etc. In a debate,one could always throw out brady.Brady is the exception more than the rule. Just like brees and wilson are exceptions when the height discussion is involved.If we were just comparing case to schaub,another guy without special qualities,we could say case is a smaller schaub with better feet. A small schaub with better feet will not win a superbowl. So what's the point?

I think case is up against it on this team. I think they're giving him a good look to decide whether or not they want to keep 3qbs or not. With the emergence of guys like Jefferson and a guy like Posey coming back quicker than expected,case might be back on practice squad. That's not a bad place to be honestly.They can't try to hide some of their emerging young players. I doubt a team would take keenam and put him on the active roster. Jmo.

Case isn't making the practice squad if released.. have you watched any of the other PS games? Some team will pick him up. Also, you can't compare Case to Schaub just because both players don't have a elite arm (although Keenum has a better arm). Schaub has maxed out his potential, while Case will still be viewed as a player with untapped potential and Case is a way WAY better athlete. I disagree with the "special qualities" knock.. Great pocket awareness, accuracy, and anticipation are also qualities in a QB.

I see us keeping 5 WRs

Andre
Hopkins
Jean
Martin
Posey

As with the OLBers..

I see Jefferson making the team and either a surprise cut to one of our draft picks or a IR stash.

Rey
08-24-2013, 12:01 AM
With the way keenum has played, I think there are a few teams that could snag him. I think Yates would get a job somewhere for sure, but I think keenum too would wind up on a roster. If he keeps playing well, it's a wrap.

AngryNateFTW
08-24-2013, 06:05 AM
For the ones who say Case Keenum can't do it because of the system he played in in college, there's a back-up QB in GB that did particularly well last night, if his WR's could just catch the ball. He was doing well vs. that Seattle Defense.

thunderkyss
08-24-2013, 07:58 AM
For the ones who say Case Keenum can't do it because of the system he played in in college, there's a back-up QB in GB that did particularly well last night, if his WR's could just catch the ball. He was doing well vs. that Seattle Defense.

I don't think anyone is saying Case can't do it.

Most are saying the cards are stacked against him & he's yet to prove that he can. Live bullets don't start flying 'til Sep '09.

There have been many a player, QB especially, that have played well in college &/or the preseason that faded into obscurity when it got real.

ArlingtonTexan
08-24-2013, 09:45 AM
For the ones who say Case Keenum can't do it because of the system he played in in college, there's a back-up QB in GB that did particularly well last night, if his WR's could just catch the ball. He was doing well vs. that Seattle Defense.

Harrell is more unproven than TJ Yates. Not worth bringing up as any kind of example someone who has made it.

76Texan
08-24-2013, 10:29 AM
lol

Dumbstruck with wonder at the glory of it.

:spit: I didn't even realize I did that.

I'm thinking that if you had tried to come up with something like that, you can find it very hard to do.
Sometimes, things just happen!

76Texan
08-24-2013, 10:34 AM
Harrell is more unproven than TJ Yates. Not worth bringing up as any kind of example someone who has made it.

I don't understand this mindset.
Yates had not proven anything when he was called on to replace Schaub and Leinart.

Brady had not proven anything when he was called on to replace Bledsoe in 2001 en route to a SB.
He was a sixth round draft pick that was 1 of 3 for 6 yards in 2000 as a rookie.

And there are plenty of other examples.

speedfreek
08-24-2013, 10:45 AM
My beef with Yates performance was that it simply wasn't very good.
Honestly, so many folks on here have selective memory about 2011.

He was average to serviceable during the regular season, and horrific
against Indy and the playoffs against Baltimore. I don't get the
logic of pinning the first Bengals playoff win on him when JJ made the
play that broke the game open.

The 2011 Texans could run the ball really well and played much
better defense than the Texans teams of 2012 and today.

Saying that Yates "has to be" the defacto #2 because of his playoff
experience, etc. is senseless to me when he was so average against
Cincy and so aweful against Baltimore.

People can remember the end of 2011 however they want, but the
bitter taste in my mouth from the way that season ended is still
there - in part - because of Yates..

And, please, don't give me this B.S. about being called into service
without a full playbook. "yadda yadda". Yates played in a system
very similar to Gary's at N.C. (for multiple years), and if it was
such a complicated system to learn Keenum would not have been
able to pick it up in one season holding a clipboard. (given his
collegiate experience was in a system 180 degrees out of phase)

Either Gary's approach isn't rocket science, or Keenum is some
type of "playbook savant"

After all, from where I sit, there is almost no distinguishable difference
between Yates and Keenum, and Yates has been doing this a much
longer time.

TJ

I don't understand this mindset.
Yates had not proven anything when he was called on to replace Schaub and Leinart.

Brady had not proven anything when he was called on to replace Bledsoe in 2001 en route to a SB.
He was a sixth round draft pick that was 1 of 3 for 6 yards in 2000 as a rookie.

And there are plenty of other examples.

Texecutioner
08-24-2013, 10:52 AM
I don't understand this mindset.
Yates had not proven anything when he was called on to replace Schaub and Leinart.

Brady had not proven anything when he was called on to replace Bledsoe in 2001 en route to a SB.
He was a sixth round draft pick that was 1 of 3 for 6 yards in 2000 as a rookie.

And there are plenty of other examples.

Brady didn't prove anything when he led a team to the SB that was the underdog in every playoff game including the SB against the Rams? Lol!

His numbers were that of a rookie type of QB around that time. His leadership that season was that of an elite QB especially with his clutch plays he made that was good enough to take the job of one of the best passers in the league. It was no surprise to see the same guy lead his team to two more SB's in the next 3 years. This is as silly as saying Joe Montana and Elway's seasons weren't really any good when they were going to SB's, because neither one of them were putting up crazy numbers really. Not every season any way. Elway's team wasn't built that way at the time, and neither was Brady's team.

76Texan
08-24-2013, 12:15 PM
Brady didn't prove anything when he led a team to the SB that was the underdog in every playoff game including the SB against the Rams? Lol!

His numbers were that of a rookie type of QB around that time. His leadership that season was that of an elite QB especially with his clutch plays he made that was good enough to take the job of one of the best passers in the league. It was no surprise to see the same guy lead his team to two more SB's in the next 3 years. This is as silly as saying Joe Montana and Elway's seasons weren't really any good when they were going to SB's, because neither one of them were putting up crazy numbers really. Not every season any way. Elway's team wasn't built that way at the time, and neither was Brady's team.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say Tex.

My point was that Brady was a sixth round draft pick; by the same logic of an UDFA, he was passed of many times over.
It means that in the eyes of the other 31 organizations, he proved little to nothing in college.
It so means that he was not regarded highly at all by the team that drafted him, by that same logic.
He made the team as the fourth QB on the depth chart.
(That might as well be a PS spot, except Belichik started seeing something,
but not enough yet.)
Fans from other team, the vast majority of them at least, most likely don't think anything at all of a fourth string QB.
What had he proved up to that point?
Nothing to the naked eyes.

ArlingtonTexan
08-24-2013, 01:11 PM
I don't understand this mindset.
Yates had not proven anything when he was called on to replace Schaub and Leinart.

Brady had not proven anything when he was called on to replace Bledsoe in 2001 en route to a SB.
He was a sixth round draft pick that was 1 of 3 for 6 yards in 2000 as a rookie.

And there are plenty of other examples.

My mindset is one of betting on the 95% percent plus of other 6th round and later QBs since that time who never taken a meaningful NFL snap. Brady is grand exception...and Romo is the next best. Outside of that most of these guys suck (lack of better phrase). we had trouble getting five decent QBs since 1995 or so earlier in this thread.

On Harrell, here is an article where his coach pretty much said he is not good.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/graham-harrell-must-prove-his-worth-b9975726z1-219716531.html

See I am building a case with the FACTS of the matter, both generally about late round/UDFA QBs and specifically with Harrell (and his 4 career pass attempts).

HouTx11
08-24-2013, 01:27 PM
My beef with Yates performance was that it simply wasn't very good.
Honestly, so many folks on here have selective memory about 2011.

He was average to serviceable during the regular season, and horrific
against Indy and the playoffs against Baltimore. I don't get the
logic of pinning the first Bengals playoff win on him when JJ made the
play that broke the game open.

The 2011 Texans could run the ball really well and played much
better defense than the Texans teams of 2012 and today.

Saying that Yates "has to be" the defacto #2 because of his playoff
experience, etc. is senseless to me when he was so average against
Cincy and so aweful against Baltimore.

People can remember the end of 2011 however they want, but the
bitter taste in my mouth from the way that season ended is still
there - in part - because of Yates..

And, please, don't give me this B.S. about being called into service
without a full playbook. "yadda yadda". Yates played in a system
very similar to Gary's at N.C. (for multiple years), and if it was
such a complicated system to learn Keenum would not have been
able to pick it up in one season holding a clipboard. (given his
collegiate experience was in a system 180 degrees out of phase)

Either Gary's approach isn't rocket science, or Keenum is some
type of "playbook savant"

After all, from where I sit, there is almost no distinguishable difference
between Yates and Keenum, and Yates has been doing this a much
longer time.

TJ

I agree with your logic about how the 2011 season ended. Many fans chose to take out their anger on Jacoby Jones (yes he screwed up, but it happened early in the 1st quarter) moreso than all of the INTs that Yates threw in that game. The Texans D had stopped the Ravens late in the game, giving Yates and the O an opportunity to tie it up. I think you remember the result.

Rey
08-24-2013, 01:35 PM
My beef with Yates performance was that it simply wasn't very good.
Honestly, so many folks on here have selective memory about 2011.

He was average to serviceable during the regular season, and horrific
against Indy and the playoffs against Baltimore. I don't get the
logic of pinning the first Bengals playoff win on him when JJ made the
play that broke the game open.

The 2011 Texans could run the ball really well and played much
better defense than the Texans teams of 2012 and today.

Saying that Yates "has to be" the defacto #2 because of his playoff
experience, etc. is senseless to me when he was so average against
Cincy and so aweful against Baltimore.

People can remember the end of 2011 however they want, but the
bitter taste in my mouth from the way that season ended is still
there - in part - because of Yates..

After all, from where I sit, there is almost no distinguishable difference
between Yates and Keenum, and Yates has been doing this a much
longer time.

TJ

Your memory is selective. He was not bad against Indy. He was actually decent in that game.

As far as Baltimore, I find it funny how everyone talks about that Casey drop but no one remembers Andre dropping a beautiful pass from Yates early in the game that screwed up our flow.

Yates was a 5th round rookie at the time, likely not getting very many reps with our offense until he was called upon. Yates had some really good moments and he had some really rough ones. But you seem to have lost sight of the fact he was a 5th round rookie suddenly called upon.

speedfreek
08-24-2013, 01:37 PM
I was furious with Jacoby in the first half, but when he advanced the
Foster fumble he nullified that screw up (in my opinion)

In my opinion, if Keenum outplays Yates in the preseason -- specially
with Gary swapping them both in and out with the 2's and 3's then
he should get the job.

Nothing that Yates did in 2011 (or preseason 2012) has impressed
me so much that he gets "special consideration".

I'm not the "what have you done for me lately" kind of guy, but the
only thing I've seen is Yates is a .500 QB. And that's not good enough
for me.

In fact, I thought that Beck looked better in preseason last year than
Yates or Keenum.

People say that Keenum has pushed Yates to be "better". Well, if
he needs a guy behind him to get a full 100% effort then he doesn't
have the kind of killer instinct I want in a QB (a la Brady, Montana, etc.)

I say if Case beats him in preseason, the guy has earned the right to
move up the ladder.

Going from #4/practice squad to neck and neck for #2 in one off-season
has told me something about the kids desire to compete and win.

TJ

I agree with your logic about how the 2011 season ended. Many fans chose to take out their anger on Jacoby Jones (yes he screwed up, but it happened early in the 1st quarter) moreso than all of the INTs that Yates threw in that game. The Texans D had stopped the Ravens late in the game, giving Yates and the O an opportunity to tie it up. I think you remember the result.

Rey
08-24-2013, 01:41 PM
My mindset is one of betting on the 95% percent plus of other 6th round and later QBs since that time who never taken a meaningful NFL snap. Brady is grand exception...and Romo is the next best. Outside of that most of these guys suck (lack of better phrase). we had trouble getting five decent QBs since 1995 or so earlier in this thread.

On Harrell, here is an article where his coach pretty much said he is not good.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/graham-harrell-must-prove-his-worth-b9975726z1-219716531.html

See I am building a case with the FACTS of the matter, both generally about late round/UDFA QBs and specifically with Harrell (and his 4 career pass attempts).


Honestly none of that matters. Yeah, the odds are against it, but odds are beaten all the time in the NFL.

Everybody's situation is different. Kubiak is good with qb's, so a guy may be more likely to so well here vs other places.

Gotta judge them as they come. You never know.

speedfreek
08-24-2013, 01:46 PM
Yates was crap in that game. Foster ran for 158 yards, and we
still lost to a 1-14 team.

That team was QB'd by Dan Orlovsky, who threw for more yards and
had a TD pass as well. (ORLOVSKY FOR CHRIST SAKES!) Yates
also put the ball on the ground.

Dreesen, Foster and Daniels accounted for 7 of Yates 13 completions,
and he only had 16 attempts versus Orlovsky's 44 attempts..

My recollection was Yates throwing checkdowns short
of the marker on 3rd _repeatedly_

It looked very obvious, at the time, that Gary had no faith in letting
him go down the field with the ball.

Yes, Yates was a 5th round rookie then, but is a 3rd year player who
looks no better today than a UDFA with one year of PS time.
-- so that point is moot..

TJ


Your memory is selective. He was not bad against Indy. He was actually decent in that game.

As far as Baltimore, I find it funny how everyone talks about that Casey drop but no one remembers Andre dropping a beautiful pass from Yates early in the game that screwed up our flow.

Yates was a 5th round rookie at the time, likely not getting very many reps with our offense until he was called upon. Yates had some really good moments and he had some really rough ones. But you seem to have lost sight of the fact he was a 5th round rookie suddenly called upon.

ChampionTexan
08-24-2013, 01:52 PM
Honestly none of that matters. Yeah, the odds are against it, but odds are beaten all the time in the NFL.



If the odds were beaten all the time, then they would cease to be odds.

Odds: The ratio of the probability of an event's occurring to the probability of its not occurring.

ArlingtonTexan
08-24-2013, 02:00 PM
Honestly none of that matters. Yeah, the odds are against it, but odds are beaten all the time in the NFL.

Everybody's situation is different. Kubiak is good with qb's, so a guy may be more likely to so well here vs other places.

Gotta judge them as they come. You never know.

Of course, every situation is different, just like every table in cards is different that does not mean that a general bad hand is not a general bad hand. In terms of long-term NFL success, an UDFA like Keenum is basically a losing hand.

Case has played two really nice pre-season games, but he still not played against 1st unit NFL defense, made a 53 man roster nor beat out Yates. too many posters (I don't think you are) are going all-in on him before even seeing more cards.

CloakNNNdagger
08-24-2013, 02:01 PM
I was furious with Jacoby in the first half, but when he advanced the
Foster fumble he nullified that screw up (in my opinion)

In my opinion, if Keenum outplays Yates in the preseason -- specially
with Gary swapping them both in and out with the 2's and 3's then
he should get the job.

Nothing that Yates did in 2011 (or preseason 2012) has impressed
me so much that he gets "special consideration".


TJ

Lest you forget the performance Yates demonstrated in the 3 "garbage time" games last year during the regular season.

40 % pass completion rate (4/10)
1 sack
1 fumble
1 INT
0 TDs
..........for a whopping 11.7 QB rating.

texanhead08
08-24-2013, 02:19 PM
Lest you forget the performance Yates demonstrated in the 3 "garbage time" games last year during the regular season.

40 % pass completion rate (4/10)
1 sack
1 fumble
1 INT
0 TDs
..........for a whopping 11.7 QB rating.

I don't care what a QB does in pre season its not going to impress me. The team doesn't gameplan, or run anything other than vanilla defense was you really have no idea what you have in a player.

speedfreek
08-24-2013, 02:31 PM
Very valid point. The way I saw that, at the time, was that
Yates was either "coasting on reputation", or the team wasn't
as good at covering up his mistakes as it was in 2011
(when the defense was better, and the o-line was better)

By the way, off-topic but -- is it just me, or do many posters on
here notice that some folks don't actually bother to read threads
carefully?

I see many times when someone rants about something said
previously, and the person has completely misread what
the previous poster wrote..

A headscratcher..
TJ

Lest you forget the performance Yates demonstrated in the 3 "garbage time" games last year during the regular season.

40 % pass completion rate (4/10)
1 sack
1 fumble
1 INT
0 TDs
..........for a whopping 11.7 QB rating.

Texn4life
08-24-2013, 02:40 PM
I'm pretty sure the Raiders would take either one of our backup QBs right about now. Their current situation is in bad shape.

hradhak
08-24-2013, 03:01 PM
Yates reminds me a lot of Matt Cassel when he played on the Pats.
Yes his team went 11-5. Cassell had a much better team surrounding him and he looked good enough that he got traded.

Yates has not done much to impress. Keenum has been a #2. Let's not forget that Yates was a #3 and got moved up to play in 2011 because of 2 injuries. I feel like he still is a #3.

I dunno if Case will ever be a starting QB in this league. I think under Kubes you are going to get the most out of him you possibly can.

CloakNNNdagger
08-24-2013, 03:10 PM
I'm pretty sure the Raiders would take either one of our backup QBs right about now. Their current situation is in bad shape.

In a heart beat! Heck, the Raiders would probably be willing to take any of our "castoffs" at any position. They don't have even one player on the ESPN top 100 list of offensive players, and only have one (Charles Woodson) on the top 100 list of defensive players............1 in 200........:chef:

AngryNateFTW
08-24-2013, 03:18 PM
The #2 QB in GB is being released...

Oopsie..Looks like I might have been wrong. :tiphat:

76Texan
08-24-2013, 03:44 PM
My mindset is one of betting on the 95% percent plus of other 6th round and later QBs since that time who never taken a meaningful NFL snap. Brady is grand exception...and Romo is the next best. Outside of that most of these guys suck (lack of better phrase). we had trouble getting five decent QBs since 1995 or so earlier in this thread.

On Harrell, here is an article where his coach pretty much said he is not good.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/graham-harrell-must-prove-his-worth-b9975726z1-219716531.html

See I am building a case with the FACTS of the matter, both generally about late round/UDFA QBs and specifically with Harrell (and his 4 career pass attempts).

I'm not betting on the whole truckload of them; I only bet on guys, in this case - Keenum, which I have seen thoroughly.

I only mention other guys (and there have been quite a few, but not many) to prompt the point that you can't simply discount a guy because he was unproven.
I never quantify how much of a percentage such a guy has.

P.S. My posts had nothing to do with Harrell; I hardly ever saw him play in college.
I know nothing about him.

eriadoc
08-24-2013, 04:03 PM
Case has played two really nice pre-season games, but he still not played against 1st unit NFL defense, made a 53 man roster nor beat out Yates. too many posters (I don't think you are) are going all-in on him before even seeing more cards.

No backup QB plays against 1st team defenses. If that's the criteria, no backup would ever get promoted. And what's your idea of going all in? I just see a bunch of people wanting Keenum to be the backup. That's nothing close to all in.

ArlingtonTexan
08-24-2013, 04:20 PM
No backup QB plays against 1st team defenses. If that's the criteria, no backup would ever get promoted. And what's your idea of going all in? I just see a bunch of people wanting Keenum to be the backup. That's nothing close to all in.

actually, the Packers did just that intentionally last night with Harrell. that is not the norm, but Rodgers was pulled against the Seahawks after a series and Harrell came in for the rest of the 1st half.

One of the battles the Case is facing with yates is exact that...Kubiak saw Yates not fall totally apart again real NFL defenses. The offense went conservative and Yates was pretty meh from a big picture NFL QBing perspective, but given the situation Yates did better than expected.


May or may not be totally fair, keenum has to legitimately outplay Yates based the "experience" of yates against real competition. Thought this was pretty obvious.

Rey
08-24-2013, 04:50 PM
If the odds were beaten all the time, then they would cease to be odds.

Odds: The ratio of the probability of an event's occurring to the probability of its not occurring.

That makes 0 sense.

Every player in the NFL has beaten the odds.

Rey
08-24-2013, 04:59 PM
Of course, every situation is different, just like every table in cards is different that does not mean that a general bad hand is not a general bad hand. In terms of long-term NFL success, an UDFA like Keenum is basically a losing hand.

Case has played two really nice pre-season games, but he still not played against 1st unit NFL defense, made a 53 man roster nor beat out Yates. too many posters (I don't think you are) are going all-in on him before even seeing more cards.

That has 0 to do with analyzing a guy on an individual basis.

You cannot compare a human being to a hand of cards. That was not a good analogy.

Rey
08-24-2013, 05:04 PM
Yates was crap in that game. Foster ran for 158 yards, and we
still lost to a 1-14

TJ

Showing your bias right now. Foster ran for all those yards because he got the touches to do so.

Go back and look at the game log. I think Yates threw the ball under 20 times and completed almost all of his passes. He was not "terrible". Your memory is bad or selective.

infantrycak
08-24-2013, 05:14 PM
No backup QB plays against 1st team defenses. If that's the criteria, no backup would ever get promoted

What? Cassel and Schaub for instance became trade targets because they started. That is very common.

ChampionTexan
08-24-2013, 05:16 PM
That makes 0 sense.

Every player in the NFL has beaten the odds.

Okay, let's assume the odds of division I football player becoming an NFL football player are 100 to 1 (I'm using this as an example - I don't know what those odds really are). That means for every player in the NFL, there's 99 who aren't. An NFL player hasn't beaten the odds, he's just proven them.

thunderkyss
08-24-2013, 06:11 PM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/mindtricks_zps212d95f8.jpg

eriadoc
08-24-2013, 06:25 PM
What? Cassel and Schaub for instance became trade targets because they started. That is very common.

They didn't face 1st team defenses in preseason until they were starters. They became starters because of injury ahead of them. So using the rationale that they aren't any good because they haven't faced 1st team defenses is just silly. No one gets a chance until they get a chance. Coaches don't put backups out there against 1st team defenses just to check them out. They do it when they have to, and not before.

speedfreek
08-24-2013, 09:04 PM
Bias? I just call a spade a spade. I'm not willing to call Yates
a good QB just because he limped possibly the best Texans team
into the playoffs..

Against Indy he was 13-16 for 132 yds, no touchdowns and a
fumble. He had the better team on the field and was beaten
and outplayed by Dan Orlovsky.

If Keenum has a better preseason than Yates, he deserves
to move up the depth chart.

Nothing Yates has done so far (in the regular season) has been
so overwhelming or amazing that it deserves special consideration.

I believe Gary will carry 3 QB's this year so, in terms of remaining
with the team, none of this matters. However, I believe you reward guys
based on their perfornance.

If Keenum looks better than Yates over the next two games, he
should be #2. If Yates looks better than Keenum over the next
two games then Yates should be #2.

Simple as that.
TJ


Showing your bias right now. Foster ran for all those yards because he got the touches to do so.

Go back and look at the game log. I think Yates threw the ball under 20 times and completed almost all of his passes. He was not "terrible". Your memory is bad or selective.

ObsiWan
08-24-2013, 11:33 PM
My beef with Yates performance was that it simply wasn't very good.
Honestly, so many folks on here have selective memory about 2011.

He was average to serviceable during the regular season, and horrific
against Indy and the playoffs against Baltimore. I don't get the
logic of pinning the first Bengals playoff win on him when JJ made the
play that broke the game open.

The 2011 Texans could run the ball really well and played much
better defense than the Texans teams of 2012 and today.

Saying that Yates "has to be" the defacto #2 because of his playoff
experience, etc. is senseless to me when he was so average against
Cincy and so aweful against Baltimore.

People can remember the end of 2011 however they want, but the
bitter taste in my mouth from the way that season ended is still
there - in part - because of Yates..

And, please, don't give me this B.S. about being called into service
without a full playbook. "yadda yadda". Yates played in a system
very similar to Gary's at N.C. (for multiple years), and if it was
such a complicated system to learn Keenum would not have been
able to pick it up in one season holding a clipboard. (given his
collegiate experience was in a system 180 degrees out of phase)

Either Gary's approach isn't rocket science, or Keenum is some
type of "playbook savant"

After all, from where I sit, there is almost no distinguishable difference
between Yates and Keenum, and Yates has been doing this a much
longer time.

TJ

Agreed.
If Yates has soooo much experience due to "his" playoff win, why isn't he pushing Schaub at this point instead of being pushed himself by an UDFA??

For the record, I think Yates and Keenum are on equal footing as far as the 2013 season is concerned. I would think (hope) Yates has the edge where knowledge of our system is concerned and where reading NFL defenses is concerned; he's been here the longest so he'd better. Keenum seems to have an edge - just from the old eyeball test - when things go "off script" and he has to improvise.

Still a dead heat IMHO. And a tie goes to the incumbent. JMO.

Carr Bombed
08-25-2013, 12:59 AM
actually, the Packers did just that intentionally last night with Harrell. that is not the norm, but Rodgers was pulled against the Seahawks after a series and Harrell came in for the rest of the 1st half.

The Colts used to do the same thing with Peyton, back when their defense sucked, hardly had a running game, and the entire team's success was tied to him... preseason was spent mostly on Jim Sorgi. Elite QBs are treated differently... Schaub is not elite.



One of the battles the Case is facing with Yates is exact that...Kubiak saw Yates not fall totally apart again real NFL defenses. The offense went conservative and Yates was pretty meh from a big picture NFL QBing perspective, but given the situation Yates did better than expected. May or may not be totally fair, Keenum has to legitimately outplay Yates based the "experience" of Yates against real competition. Thought this was pretty obvious.

I disagree, if that was the case, then Yates would've been the first off the bench in every preseason game we've played. This is the first time I can remember that Kubiak has rotated equal playing time between two QBs and has openly discussed a open competition at the position. I think a lot of posters here are hanging on to that "experience" two years ago than Kubiak is.. honestly I don't even think Kubiak is even thinking about that right now, if he was he'd already have his mind set on his #2 QB. If Case outplays Yates, he'll be listed the back up, experience from two years ago will hardly be a factor, I mean it's not like Yates set the world on fire or had that many starts and it happened two years ago. Both of these QBs are still wet behind the ears as far as starting experience goes.

thunderkyss
08-25-2013, 07:23 AM
I disagree, if that was the case, then Yates would've been the first off the bench in every preseason game we've played.

If Case outplays Yates, he'll be listed the back up...

Though the numbers are close, we've got many here that believe Case is playing better than Yates. Marginally, but definitely.

I'm assuming you're not convinced yet. I believe two weeks & a day from today, Tj Yates will be on the active day roster, Case will not. If that is the case, I'll take that to mean there never was a competition to begin with.

I'm liking what I'm seeing from Case, I like the energy, there appears to be an "it" factor, hope. But he hasn't played so well that I would ignore the benefit of experience. Nor has he played well enough that I would chance it. Though we may feel good about it we know it is more likely he'll go the way of Graham Harrell, Mark Sanchez, Matt Lienart, than Tom Brady.

I also believe when odds are better that he might be Tom Brady, he'll get the back-up job without much fanfare. Tj would be traded, or released & Case would get the job "by default." Kubiak doesn't need these preseason games to "know" how Case would do. He's seen enough. Putting him in with the 1s & 2s was for Case's benefit, to get him to where he needs to be.

Grams
08-25-2013, 07:42 AM
Jets are probably looking for a QB. Maybe we could trade them Yates.


:jk:

thunderkyss
08-25-2013, 08:12 AM
Jets are probably looking for a QB. Maybe we could trade them Yates.


:jk:

How do you think Tj affects our chances of winning a Super Bowl?

I personally think we've still got a shot with Tj, not so much with Keenum. I believe this because I think the offense will stay more or less intact with Yates at the helm (if it comes to that).

I do believe Keenum to be the future of the Texans, but I see many changes to the offense for that to happen & we're in a transition period of sorts.

I think Tj covers us from a depth stand-point that our goals don't change much if something were to happen to Matt. In that respect I value Tj much higher than I believe the Jets would value Tj, especially with John Beck floating around.

Lucky
08-25-2013, 09:40 AM
Jets are probably looking for a QB. Maybe we could trade them Yates.
I expect them to trade for Nick Foles, who played under Jets OC Marty Mornhinweg last year in Philly.

False Start
08-25-2013, 09:48 AM
IMO Case should be the backup. The kid just needs a little more time, and I think he is our next QB, after Fetal Position is done.

speedfreek
08-25-2013, 01:02 PM
I heard something earlier about the Jets either signing Beck or
giving him a workout recently.

Perhaps that is an indication that they would be interested in
either Yates or Keenum from a trade point of view -- don't know.

It is curious though.

TJ

How do you think Tj affects our chances of winning a Super Bowl?

I personally think we've still got a shot with Tj, not so much with Keenum. I believe this because I think the offense will stay more or less intact with Yates at the helm (if it comes to that).

I do believe Keenum to be the future of the Texans, but I see many changes to the offense for that to happen & we're in a transition period of sorts.

I think Tj covers us from a depth stand-point that our goals don't change much if something were to happen to Matt. In that respect I value Tj much higher than I believe the Jets would value Tj, especially with John Beck floating around.

The Pencil Neck
08-25-2013, 01:26 PM
I heard something earlier about the Jets either signing Beck or
giving him a workout recently.

Perhaps that is an indication that they would be interested in
either Yates or Keenum from a trade point of view -- don't know.

It is curious though.

TJ

Beck AND Matt Leinart, from what I saw.

badboy
08-25-2013, 09:46 PM
Beck AND Matt Leinart, from what I saw.
First, they signed 2004 Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart, a former first-round draft pick. Terms of the deal were not disclosed.

Later Sunday, the Bills announced they traded linebacker Chris White to the Detroit Lions for quarterback Thaddeus Lewis.

Leinart was most recently a member of the Oakland Raiders. He has started 18 games since being drafted 10th overall by the Arizona Cardinals in 2006. The 6-foot-5 USC product has completed 366 of 641 passes for 4,065 yards with 15 touchdowns and 21 interceptions in his NFL career.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/chi-matt-leinart-buffalo-bills-20130825,0,6399520.story

Vinny
08-26-2013, 12:38 PM
I was hoping Case would take a shot at the end zone at the end of the game but of course he didn't. He took the safe pass on some 3rd downs which came up short earlier also. Just on my observations I think Case is probably closer to our Cody Carlson than he is our Kurt Warner.

rmartin65
08-26-2013, 12:40 PM
Just on my observations I think Case is probably closer to our Cody Carlson than he is our Kurt Warner.

That's blasphemous talk around here. Have fun.

eriadoc
08-26-2013, 12:44 PM
I was hoping Case would take a shot at the end zone at the end of the game but of course he didn't. He took the safe pass on some 3rd downs which came up short earlier also. Just on my observations I think Case is probably closer to our Cody Carlson than he is our Kurt Warner.

I was hoping that as well, but if you notice, it doesn't matter who is in at QB; they ALL do that. They throw short of the sticks, they check down on critical downs, etc. Schaub does it, Yates does it, and now Keenum's doing it. So from that standpoint, he fits right in.

thunderkyss
08-26-2013, 12:46 PM
I was hoping Case would take a shot at the end zone at the end of the game but of course he didn't. He took the safe pass on some 3rd downs which came up short earlier also.

He probably scored more points with Kubiak taking the safe throw than he would have throwing the ill advised into the end zone pass.

The main thing I've been trying to say through this "competition" is that what we want to see most likely won't win him the job. I believe Kubiak wants to see Case play more like Schaub than not. Schaub is the standard.

Schaub's command of this offense plus Case's intangibles are what will win him a starting job with the Texans.

76Texan
08-26-2013, 12:50 PM
I was hoping Case would take a shot at the end zone at the end of the game but of course he didn't. He took the safe pass on some 3rd downs which came up short earlier also. Just on my observations I think Case is probably closer to our Cody Carlson than he is our Kurt Warner.

Actually, I just finished reviewing the game.
That was what I wanted him to do when I watched the game live; not so much now.
There was nobody open in the endzone.
One TE was running a similar route to Lemon; another was running into double coverage; so was the right slot. Cruse was pinned to the right side line.

His choice was either crossing route; Lemon was a good choice.
The ball was a little low, but catchable.
If Lemon caught the ball (with a little better throw) and Cruse can put on a good block; there's a decent chance for a TD there.

It doesn't help for Keenum to wait any longer.

Vinny
08-26-2013, 12:54 PM
we lose - game's over if we don't score. I'd just like to see him put it out there for someone to make a play.

76Texan
08-26-2013, 12:55 PM
I was hoping that as well, but if you notice, it doesn't matter who is in at QB; they ALL do that. They throw short of the sticks, they check down on critical downs, etc. Schaub does it, Yates does it, and now Keenum's doing it. So from that standpoint, he fits right in.

Like Billik said, when you're in the redzone, think either TD or check down.
If there's nobody open early, the QB goes to the check down option early.
The coaches don't want the QB to wait around.

76Texan
08-26-2013, 01:04 PM
Keenum isn't a gun-shy type of QB; he will fit it in there if he thinks there's a decent chance.

If anything, I would think that Kubiak is the one who doesn't want that.
He prefers a safe throw and just give the receiver a chance to make a play.
We've seen AJ picked up a low ball and gained a bunch of yards.

ArlingtonTexan
08-26-2013, 03:13 PM
First, they signed 2004 Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart, a former first-round draft pick. Terms of the deal were not disclosed.

Later Sunday, the Bills announced they traded linebacker Chris White to the Detroit Lions for quarterback Thaddeus Lewis.

Leinart was most recently a member of the Oakland Raiders. He has started 18 games since being drafted 10th overall by the Arizona Cardinals in 2006. The 6-foot-5 USC product has completed 366 of 641 passes for 4,065 yards with 15 touchdowns and 21 interceptions in his NFL career.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/chi-matt-leinart-buffalo-bills-20130825,0,6399520.story

Jeff Tuel possible starter for week 1....no exactly the "plan"

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/26/bills-planning-to-start-jeff-tuel-in-week-one/

Speedy
08-26-2013, 04:54 PM
I was hoping Case would take a shot at the end zone at the end of the game but of course he didn't. He took the safe pass on some 3rd downs which came up short earlier also. Just on my observations I think Case is probably closer to our Cody Carlson than he is our Kurt Warner.

I was hoping Schaub would have taken a couple of shots at the end zone at the end of the 1st half and he didn't. You won't beat the Denver's and New England's of the world going short and hoping for YAC. Attack the f'ing end zone like those teams do!!!!! DAMMIT!!!!

76Texan
08-26-2013, 05:14 PM
I was hoping Schaub would have taken a couple of shots at the end zone at the end of the 1st half and he didn't. You won't beat the Denver's and New England's of the world going short and hoping for YAC. Attack the f'ing end zone like those teams do!!!!! DAMMIT!!!!

Overall, I don't think I can blame any of our QBs this preseason.
The way this team is built, I am very confident with Schaub as the starter and either Yates or Keenum as the backup.

The real question(s) are at the other positions.

HouTx11
08-26-2013, 05:40 PM
Just rewatched the 4th down and 6 play.

Had Lemon caught that low pass from Keenum he would've fallen down at the 6. He needed to get to the 4 for the first down.

A better throw from Keenum probably would have gotten the first down, and maybe even the TD, but the TD would've been very hard to do because of the defender in the end zone and the defender behind him.

I'm a big fan of Keenum, so it pains me to say that Yates did outplay him last night.

I look forward to seeing a big game out of Keenum on Thursday night.

76Texan
08-26-2013, 06:04 PM
Just rewatched the 4th down and 6 play.

Had Lemon caught that low pass from Keenum he would've fallen down at the 6. He needed to get to the 4 for the first down.

A better throw from Keenum probably would have gotten the first down, and maybe even the TD, but the TD would've been very hard to do because of the defender in the end zone and the defender behind him.

I'm a big fan of Keenum, so it pains me to say that Yates did outplay him last night.

I look forward to seeing a big game out of Keenum on Thursday night.

That was exactly what I thought at first when I watched the game live, that Yates clearly outplayed Keenum.

Let me just leave it there; I wished that we had as much competition at other positions.

DX-TEX
08-26-2013, 06:10 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/26/texans-backup-battle-goes-down-to-last-preseason-game-and-possibly-beyond/

The Texans have been very impressed by Keenum, undrafted in 2012 out of Houston. As his game develops, some have wondered whether he’ll skip over Yates on the way to leapfrogging Schaub.

Ladies and gentlemen: the national media is now getting involved! Let the circus commence!

76Texan
08-26-2013, 06:13 PM
Just rewatched the 4th down and 6 play.

Had Lemon caught that low pass from Keenum he would've fallen down at the 6. He needed to get to the 4 for the first down.

A better throw from Keenum probably would have gotten the first down, and maybe even the TD, but the TD would've been very hard to do because of the defender in the end zone and the defender behind him.

I'm a big fan of Keenum, so it pains me to say that Yates did outplay him last night.

I look forward to seeing a big game out of Keenum on Thursday night.

It was still a good decision though. You go through the reads, and there wasn't a better choice.

If I'm picky, I would say Yates missed one earlier and Schaub could have done better too.

infantrycak
08-26-2013, 06:43 PM
I blame kubiak's ridiculous play calling. He goes spread offense 4 or 5 wide out before the last play and calls for a QB draw. Then the following play, goes back to a traditional 3 receiver 1 TE set and finally calls a passing play.

Why would you do that to your offense? The spread option 4 or 5 receiver set is keenum's specialty at UofH but you call a qb draw, the following play you limit his offensive options and finally call for a passing play. Totally detrimental offensive play calling by kubiak.

Running 4 of 5 WRs changes the personnel and spreads them out. It is not an uncommon formation when contemplating a QB draw. Also typically the Texans have both a pass and run play and the QB decides based on what the D shows.

As for 3 WRs and 1 TE I don't see how you can complain. That does not limit the play calling. That is still 4 receivers and our TEs catch lots of TDs. In fact, a lot of the time when we run what looks like a 4 WR formation 1 of them is a TE split out to the slot.

eriadoc
08-26-2013, 07:30 PM
I mean why call for a draw? Isnt there a back up qb battle brewing? Arent you trying to figure out how well keenum can qb? Calling for a draw play in a meaningless preseason game is not the right way to go about finding out what you have in a QB.

You call for a draw because it's preseason. You call for it because you know damn well Schaub can't do it and you want to see how Keenum handles it. It's a test. The entire preseason is a test. You want to see how your OL blocks it up, how your WRs do, etc. Pretty sure Kubiak already knows Keenum can sling it. That's not what he wants to see. He wants to see him run the plays that Kubiak calls. He wants to see how he progresses through his reads. He wants to see if Keenum will encroach on Kubiak's terrible clock management by trying to call a timeout a couple seconds before the quarter end.

It's preseason.

Thorn
08-26-2013, 07:41 PM
Ladies and gentlemen: the national media is now getting involved! Let the circus commence!

:lol:

That was funny. But at least now we know it's not just us.

thunderkyss
08-26-2013, 08:19 PM
You call for a draw because it's preseason.

How do we know it was a called draw? For all we know, Keenum made that call all by himself, after all that spread was his specialty at UH...


He may have taken a look at the defense before the snap, & made up his mind that he'll make one read then go.

legacy_gt
08-26-2013, 09:07 PM
keenum up 2-1 against yates. we'll see against the cowgirls. :chickendance:

steelbtexan
08-26-2013, 09:26 PM
[QUOTE=eriadoc;2196358]Only if you accept the assumption that the scouting is done properly. Plenty of elite talent has fallen through the cracks. Foster is a perfect example. He's one of the three or four best RBs in the NFL (2nd, in my book), but he wasn't drafted for reasons that were not related to talent.

We'll see how it pans out for Keenum, but the talent evaluation on him was wrong, and continues to be wrong. His arm is just fine, he has more athleticism than many starting QBs, and he definitely has the drive, work ethic, and mental capacity for the position. The only real question was/is experience. He played in a weird system at UH, didn't take snaps under center, and didn't face NFL style defenses. So it's fair to question if he can conquer those challenges. I think he can, but we'll see. But I think any question of his talent is off base. He may not be as talented as guys like Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers, but he's more athletic than Schaub. His arm is at least as good as Schaub's. His mobility in the pocket is better than average.

RG3 had these qualities and also played in this funky system and he seemed to do OK last yr. LOL

Of course he did run a 4.3 and has a stronger arm. Keenum is more mobile and has a stronger arm than Schaub though. (No, I'm not advocating starting Keenum over Schaub.)

speedfreek
08-26-2013, 09:37 PM
technically, Keenum almost never ran an empty backfield.
He usually had one or two back sets as his base offense.

When you go completely empty, like Gary loves to do --
pass is the only option.. (or keeper)

TJ

How do we know it was a called draw? For all we know, Keenum made that call all by himself, after all that spread was his specialty at UH...


He may have taken a look at the defense before the snap, & made up his mind that he'll make one read then go.

thunderkyss
08-26-2013, 10:18 PM
But I think any question of his talent is off base. He may not be as talented as guys like Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers, but he's more athletic than Schaub. His arm is at least as good as Schaub's. His mobility in the pocket is better than average.


Lack of talent is rarely the reason players are not successful in the NFL. Fast isn't good enough for an NFL WR, you've got to be fast, you've got to run routes, you've got to understand defenses....

QBs have to make good decisions, fast. They've got to be able to see as much of the field as possible. They've got to anticipate the movement of several defensive players at the same time & calculate complex geometric-physics solutions in real time.

ArlingtonTexan
08-27-2013, 07:18 AM
Lack of talent is rarely the reason players are not successful in the NFL. Fast isn't good enough for an NFL WR, you've got to be fast, you've got to run routes, you've got to understand defenses....

QBs have to make good decisions, fast. They've got to be able to see as much of the field as possible. They've got to anticipate the movement of several defensive players at the same time & calculate complex geometric-physics solutions in real time.

Not sure how you are using talent here...running routes, throwing with accuracy etc are a part of a player's talent. Do you mean pure athletic ability as talent alone?

ObsiWan
08-27-2013, 07:33 PM
How do we know it was a called draw? For all we know, Keenum made that call all by himself, after all that spread was his specialty at UH...


He may have taken a look at the defense before the snap, & made up his mind that he'll make one read then go.

I think you're on to something. Did you notice the way Keenum was grinning after that successful draw? I think, as the play unfolded, he saw all the DBs with their backs turned in coverage and took off through a gap in the pocket because he saw he had free-for-the-taking yards.

He tried it again about 2 or 3 plays later but the D was watching for it.

Rey
08-27-2013, 08:01 PM
I think you're on to something. Did you notice the way Keenum was grinning after that successful draw? I think, as the play unfolded, he saw all the DBs with their backs turned in coverage and took off through a gap in the pocket because he saw he had free-for-the-taking yards.

He tried it again about 2 or 3 plays later but the D was watching for it.

The first play wasn't a draw. No one was open and he ran for yards. Kubiak himself stated that.

The second play was nothing like that. He didn't even scan the field. It was a called draw...not sure why TK has this fetish with Keenum going all rogue.

legacy_gt
08-29-2013, 11:35 PM
great pre-season battle with keenum vs yates. regardless, both backups have stepped up their game. i personally had keenum a slight edge over yates overall. he had a couple deep balls in the end zone and had plays like 4 and 1 and ran the ball for the first. he's going to be good. can't imagine keenum throwing to AJ, Foster, and Daniels....

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 07:30 AM
While we can easily look at the QBs & say, "This guy looks good, That guy looked better, etc, etc, etc.... "

We really don't know what the coach is asking him to do..... There might have been a great TD pass, but IF the QB didn't properly read the defense & adjusted his first read, to where he missed the first/second open receiver, thereby not getting the ball out on time.

Maybe he didn't adjust to the hot route on the blitz? Still made a great play that moved the chains, but if he's not reading the defense, not picking up keys, not on the same page with the receivers.... then you're not really utilizing your offense to it's potential. We know this offense can generate 25+ points per game with "the right" QB (without taking many chances) & ~17 or so with the wrong guy (taking chance after chance after chance).

CloakNNNdagger
08-30-2013, 07:39 AM
While we can easily look at the QBs & say, "This guy looks good, That guy looked better, etc, etc, etc.... "

We really don't know what the coach is asking him to do..... There might have been a great TD pass, but IF the QB didn't properly read the defense & adjusted his first read, to where he missed the first/second open receiver, thereby not getting the ball out on time.

Maybe he didn't adjust to the hot route on the blitz? Still made a great play that moved the chains, but if he's not reading the defense, not picking up keys, not on the same page with the receivers.... then you're not really utilizing your offense to it's potential. We know this offense can generate 25+ points per game with "the right" QB (without taking many chances) & ~17 or so with the wrong guy (taking chance after chance after chance).

Not going to disagree with any of those hypotheticals being possible, but as it stands it is just as likely that Keenum did exactly what he was asked to do.

Rey
08-30-2013, 07:43 AM
Not going to disagree with any of those hypotheticals being possible, but as it stands it is just as likely that Keenum did exactly what he was asked to do.

Yeah, that and I'll go ahead and disagree with his hypotheticals as it makes no sense.

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 08:40 AM
Not going to disagree with any of those hypotheticals being possible, but as it stands it is just as likely that Keenum did exactly what he was asked to do.

I didn't watch the game, so I don't know. It is very possible that Keenum did everything he was supposed to.... I'm just saying we don't know. Only Kubiak & the QB coaches do.

However, I know Kubiak stresses footwork, part of that is because it is the QB's method of keeping time. On a three step drop, that ball is supposed to come out on the third step. On a five step drop, it's supposed to come out on the fifth, etc...

There are many reasons the ball may not come out on time, many are legit, some aren't. If Keenum (or Tj for that matter) is getting the ball out on time more often than not... great. If they aren't getting it out on time for legit reasons... great.

If they're acting like Vince Young, not recognizing their reads, not making the right adjustments... but still winning games, you're playing with fools gold.

Let's watch Colin Kaepernick this year & see if he's actually progressing as a QB. If he's playing the same way he played last year (RG3 as well) I guarantee you he won't have the same success, either he won't play 16 games, or defenses will figure him out.

At the same time, if the Chiefs can stay healthy I guarantee you they'll make the play offs. Alex Smith probably won't get any credit & Jamaal Charles probably will, but Smith will do his job, no doubt in my mind.

Keep in mind, I don't care if Case or Tj "wins" the back up QB spot. What I said goes for both guys equally.

76Texan
08-30-2013, 11:34 AM
Is it a correct assumption that Keenum was put into more challenging positions than Schaub and Yates this preseason?

Third and long; fourth down situation; pass play from deep in his own end zone, etc. ?

Also, was he pressured more than the other two QBs, or at least responded better in pressure situations?

Or am I imagining it?

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 11:47 AM
Is it a correct assumption that Keenum was put into more challenging positions than Schaub and Yates this preseason?

Third and long; fourth down situation; pass play from deep in his own end zone, etc. ?

Also, was he pressured more than the other two QBs, or at least responded better in pressure situations?

Or am I imagining it?

I don't think those are the things Kubiak is looking for. He's looking for the guy that runs his offense the most efficiently.

76Texan
08-30-2013, 12:11 PM
I don't think those are the things Kubiak is looking for. He's looking for the guy that runs his offense the most efficiently.

He still needs to run the offense the way Kubiak wants him to; I'm not saying anything differently.

Thorn
08-30-2013, 12:17 PM
If Keenum didn't prove to his distractors that he's a future NFL QB during this pre-season then nothing will.

I see a day when Keenum is our starter. Or, if the Texans really **** this one up, someone else's starter.

Brisco_County
08-30-2013, 12:28 PM
Keenum proved that he could be the starter for this team one day, and I would like to see it happen. However, Yates performed well enough to keep his spot. This competition will happen again next year, and it will be even more interesting.

76Texan
08-30-2013, 12:29 PM
If Keenum didn't prove to his distractors that he's a future NFL QB during this pre-season then nothing will.

I see a day when Keenum is our starter. Or, if the Texans really **** this one up, someone else's starter.

Strong words, indeed. :chili:

Scooter
08-30-2013, 12:30 PM
However, I know Kubiak stresses footwork, part of that is because it is the QB's method of keeping time. On a three step drop, that ball is supposed to come out on the third step. On a five step drop, it's supposed to come out on the fifth, etc...

one of case's strengths in my opinion, is he has amazing footwork. his plant, mobility in the pocket, and foot speed are ideal. two plays stood out to me last night. one was a rollout to his left with the ROLB or RE coming at him and he was able to outrun the defender without ever taking his eyes off the field or taking his upper body away from throwing position (dropped by jean). schaub would've started backtracking to the sideline and thrown it away as the defender flattened him. the other was the pass from our endzone, case takes his drop, moves left and then up in the pocket, and fires a strike. great feet.

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 12:37 PM
If Keenum didn't prove to his distractors that he's a future NFL QB during this pre-season then nothing will.



Then I guess nothing will.

Call me hard headed, but I'm still not convinced Kaepernick or Luck can be starters in this league.

Grams
08-30-2013, 12:39 PM
Then I guess nothing will.

Call me hard headed, but I'm still not convinced Kaepernick or Luck can be starters in this league.

But . . . they already are starters in this league.

Thorn
08-30-2013, 12:43 PM
But . . . they already are starters in this league.

Yeah, that kind of had me scratching my head as well.

eriadoc
08-30-2013, 12:44 PM
call me hard headed, but i'm still not convinced kaepernick or luck can be starters in this league.

lmao

foo82
08-30-2013, 12:56 PM
Throwing rhetoric aside (IE arm strength, height), based on his play out there during preaseason, how would you characterize Keenum's weaknesses? I didn't see any instance of lack of arm strength or a significant number of batted passes.

I don't see a huge weakness that would limit him from being a starter.

paycheck71
08-30-2013, 12:58 PM
Throwing rhetoric aside (IE arm strength, height), based on his play out there during preaseason, how would you characterize Keenum's weaknesses? I didn't see any instance of lack of arm strength or a significant number of batted passes.

I don't see a huge weakness that would limit him from being a starter.

I think he's done all HE can at this point for coaches to have faith in him. We won't know about his strengths/weaknesses in a real game vs real competition until he actually gets a chance to play in a game that matters vs other team's top defense.

Thorn
08-30-2013, 01:28 PM
I think he's done all HE can at this point for coaches to have faith in him. We won't know about his strengths/weaknesses in a real game vs real competition until he actually gets a chance to play in a game that matters vs other team's top defense.

Absolutely. Until we see him in real action against a real defense we will be left with nothing but his potential to discuss. My opinion is that he is for real, but until we can actually see that, we are all left wondering.

speedfreek
08-30-2013, 01:29 PM
I think the phrase you're looking for is

"I'm still not convinced Kaepernic or Luck can be winners in
this league over the long term"

Because, technically they were successful starters in the short
term.

The difference between those two and Keenum is that they
were thrown into the fire immediately while Keenum is being
groomed.

Maybe trial by fire is best, or maybe the Aaron Rodgers method
is..

Gary just decided on option #2 with #7, we'll get the answer
a little later on I think..

TJ


Then I guess nothing will.

Call me hard headed, but I'm still not convinced Kaepernick or Luck can be starters in this league.

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 02:07 PM
But . . . they already are starters in this league.

I know. So was/is Ryan Fitzpatrick, Chad Henne, Blaine Gabbert, Jamarcus Russel, Matt Cassell, Kevin Kolb, etc... etc... etc...

Thorn
08-30-2013, 02:30 PM
I know. So was/is Ryan Fitzpatrick, Chad Henne, Blaine Gabbert, Jamarcus Russel, Matt Cassell, Kevin Kolb, etc... etc... etc...

Perhaps you should reword something....like "they may be starting, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD be starting".

Just nitpicking. QBs are defined by their team. Schaub is better because of who is around him, not because he is actually good.

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 02:49 PM
Perhaps you should reword something....like "they may be starting, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD be starting".

Just nitpicking. QBs are defined by their team. Schaub is better because of who is around him, not because he is actually good.


Call me hard headed, but I'm still not convinced Blaine Gabbert can be a starter in this league.

I think it works just fine, as worded.

Carr Bombed
08-30-2013, 02:50 PM
I know. So was/is Ryan Fitzpatrick, Chad Henne, Blaine Gabbert, Jamarcus Russel, Matt Cassell, Kevin Kolb, etc... etc... etc...

When did any of those guys ever have a season like Luck, Griffin, or Kapernick? These three guys CAN be starters in this league, because they've already proven it... The only question that remains is can they consistently be elite starting QBs.

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 03:06 PM
When did any of those guys ever have a season like Luck, Griffin, or Kapernick?


That is irrelevant. To my point, or the question asked.


These three guys CAN be starters in this league, because they've already proven it... The only question that remains is can they consistently be elite starting QBs.

For the sake of your argument, how are we defining elite today? 4000 yards? 12 wins? It's a moving target & as you've noticed, I have difficulty keeping up.

infantrycak
08-30-2013, 03:48 PM
When did any of those guys ever have a season like Luck, Griffin, or Kapernick? .

2008 Cassel - 63.4%, 21 TDs, 11 INTs, 7.2 YPA,, 89.4 Rating
2012 Luck - 54.1%, 23 TDs, 18 INTs, 7.0 YPA, 76.5 Rating

steelbtexan
08-30-2013, 03:53 PM
yeah, that and i'll go ahead and disagree with his hypotheticals as it makes no sense.

lol

msr

steelbtexan
08-30-2013, 04:01 PM
If Keenum didn't prove to his distractors that he's a future NFL QB during this pre-season then nothing will.

I see a day when Keenum is our starter. Or, if the Texans really **** this one up, someone else's starter.


I hope the latter isn't the Case.

Thorn
08-30-2013, 04:01 PM
Call me hard headed, but I'm still not convinced Blaine Gabbert can be a starter in this league.

I think it works just fine, as worded.

You're hard headed. :lol:

It's all good. If any of us actually was that knowledgeable about football we probably wouldn't be posting here.

steelbtexan
08-30-2013, 04:02 PM
Then I guess nothing will.

Call me hard headed, but I'm still not convinced Kaepernick or Luck can be starters in this league.

Hypothetically, you being hard headed?

Never

LOL

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 04:06 PM
lol

msr

Surely you've seen enough football to understand what I said. Think about Michael Vick, or Vince young. 1 read, then go. Sure you can be successful doing that for a little while... NFC Championship game successful. But surely not anything long term.

You've got to be able to read NFL defenses at NFL speeds & make NFL decisions.

Thorn
08-30-2013, 04:14 PM
You've got to be able to read NFL defenses at NFL speeds & make NFL decisions.

And until we see Keenum actually do that (or not do it) we are all pissing into the wind.

steelbtexan
08-30-2013, 04:15 PM
Surely you've seen enough football to understand what I said. Think about Michael Vick, or Vince young. 1 read, then go. Sure you can be successful doing that for a little while... NFC Championship game successful. But surely not anything long term.

You've got to be able to read NFL defenses at NFL speeds & make NFL decisions.

I get what your saying, but Luck took a crappy team to the playoffs as a rookie. He's got a few mechanical flaws, but Luck reminds me of a more athletic Peyton.

I'm afraid he's going to do to the Texans what Manning did for a decade.

Kaepernick is one of the most gifted athletes I've ever seen. Unlike Vick/VY he has height 6'5 and a 95 mph fastball to go with it. He appears to be a student of the game also. Kaepernick also has the best QB coach in the NFL. So he's got all of the tools he needs for success.

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 06:10 PM
I get what your saying, but Luck took a crappy team to the playoffs as a rookie. He's got a few mechanical flaws, but Luck reminds me of a more athletic Peyton.


Sounds like you're talking about Tbow


I'm afraid he's going to do to the Texans what Manning did for a decade.


If he played like RG3, or Russell Wilson I could understand it.... or even Kaepernick. But he didn't. Not even close. Had Blaine Gabbert thrown the ball as often as Luck his stats would have been similar.

What do you think of Blaine Gabbert as a QB? Does he strike fear into your heart? One man doesn't win 11 games, not even Luck. Just like the Titans kept games close for VY


Kaepernick is one of the most gifted athletes I've ever seen. Unlike Vick/VY he has height 6'5 and a 95 mph fastball to go with it. He appears to be a student of the game also. Kaepernick also has the best QB coach in the NFL. So he's got all of the tools he needs for success.

I do not doubt any of this. All I said, was let's see him do it again, prove he's the real deal.

drs23
08-30-2013, 06:26 PM
Then I guess nothing will.

Call me hard headed, but I'm still not convinced Kaepernick or Luck can be starters in this league.

OK, you're hard headed. (I say that in the kindest tone) They're both starters in the league, RIGHT NOW. And I don't profess to know much about spheroid ball but according to those who do, they're pretty damn good at it RIGHT NOW.

They're prolly one year wonders though and will consider themselves lucky and in high esteem to mentioned in the same breath along with Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson and all them kinda cats. :kitten:


:D

Carr Bombed
08-30-2013, 07:40 PM
Sounds like you're talking about Tbow

No it doesn't



If he played like RG3, or Russell Wilson I could understand it.... or even Kaepernick. But he didn't. Not even close. Had Blaine Gabbert thrown the ball as often as Luck his stats would have been similar.

What do you think of Blaine Gabbert as a QB? Does he strike fear into your heart? One man doesn't win 11 games, not even Luck. Just like the Titans kept games close for VY

LOL, now you're comparing Luck to Elaine Gabbert? :kubepalm: Wow.


Also it's true that one man doesn't win 11 games, but a very good QB gives you the chance to win every week. A very good QB can step in and from day #1 and can turn the worst team in the entire league from a year before and take the team to the playoffs.... Luck did that. Elaine Gabbert will be released before he ever sniffs the playoffs as a starting QB.

legacy_gt
08-30-2013, 07:48 PM
keenum has the best footwork, killer instinct, fastest release, and "it" factor among our amazing 3 qb's. he just needs the experience.

the idea of 4th and goal knowing that keenum can handoff to foster up the gut, play action, quick throw, or qb sneak makes this guy have the most weapons. future looks really bright.

there's a reason why keenum isn't going back to the practice squad. yates has more years experience plus a playoff win under his belt and keenum is making it hard to choose between the 2.

i'm good making case a 3rd stinger. he'll be that good next year because he'll be hungrier.

Texecutioner
08-30-2013, 08:31 PM
No it doesn't





LOL, now you're comparing Luck to Elaine Gabbert? :kubepalm: Wow.


Also it's true that one man doesn't win 11 games, but a very good QB gives you the chance to win every week. A very good QB can step in and from day #1 can turn the worst team in the entire league from a year before and take the team to the playoffs.... Luck did that. Elaine Gabbert will be released before he even sniffs the playoffs as a starting QB.

I really don't see how anyone could consider this guy knowledgable as far as football goes even a little when he says outlandish statements like this. Personally, I think it's for attention, because there is no way a guy could watch as much football as he claims and state that Kapernick and Luck haven't proven that they are starters in this league. He is just trolling to create conversation. If not, that would be even worse, but I can't believe that he honestly believes that in his mind.

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 09:08 PM
I really don't see how anyone could consider this guy knowledgable as far as football goes even a little when he says outlandish statements like this. Personally, I think it's for attention, because there is no way a guy could watch as much football as he claims and state that Kapernick and Luck haven't proven that they are starters in this league. He is just trolling to create conversation. If not, that would be even worse, but I can't believe that he honestly believes that in his mind.

There are two different things going on here.

Kaepernick is flash & glitz..... he's the shiny "new" thing that people are easily enamored with. He's Michael Vick in a receiver friendly league. Michael Vick worked out well for Atlanta at first, but when teams caught up to him, it was obvious that Vick did not improve as a QB as well as he should have. Kaepernick will face that same challenge.

Andy Luck.... do the math. Blaine Gabbart is a statistical twin. The plug would have been pulled on Luck way before he got close to 4000 yards on a team that didn't keep it close enough to win.

He averaged 1+ Int per game. Nobody brags about a 50% completion percentage or a 76 QBR... that doesn't scream real deal. Especially when you have two rookie QBs who performed much better in RG3 & Russell Wilson; two guys I don't clump together with Luck & Kaepernick. Two guys who have proven they are starting QBs imo.

They've got to do it again, same as CK, but I think odds are better that they will. Luck has yet to prove he's "special" much less a starting QB.

eriadoc
08-30-2013, 09:23 PM
Andy Luck.... do the math. Blaine Gabbart is a statistical twin. The plug would have been pulled on Luck way before he got close to 4000 yards on a team that didn't keep it close enough to win.

He averaged 1+ Int per game. Nobody brags about a 50% completion percentage or a 76 QBR... that doesn't scream real deal. Especially when you have two rookie QBs who performed much better in RG3 & Russell Wilson; two guys I don't clump together with Luck & Kaepernick. Two guys who have proven they are starting QBs imo.

They've got to do it again, same as CK, but I think odds are better that they will. Luck has yet to prove he's "special" much less a starting QB.

Red, I do believe you're talking out of your ass.

OK, so what if Luck had an improved completion percentage, just by a couple points, say 56-57%, threw for under 4000 hard, say maybe 3800, but threw for more INTs, say in the high 20s? About the same QB Rating. What's your prognosis then, Dr.?

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 09:40 PM
Red, I do believe you're talking out of your ass.

OK, so what if Luck had an improved completion percentage, just by a couple points, say 56-57%, threw for under 4000 hard, say maybe 3800, but threw for more INTs, say in the high 20s? About the same QB Rating. What's your prognosis then, Dr.?

If this was his 1st & only year as a starter I'd say the jury is still out & he still has to prove he is a starter. Same thing I'm saying now.

It's not an impressive year for the best QB prospect in a lifetime. It doesn't compare to Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, or RG3, not even close.

If you're scared of a guy that puts up Luck's numbers, watch out for Blain Gabbert.

Three years from now if Luck is putting up the same numbers, he won't be a starter.

Three years from now, if Russell Wilson is putting up the same numbers, he will be a starter. It's that simple. Luck is being given a pass.

CloakNNNdagger
08-30-2013, 09:59 PM
Red, I do believe you're talking out of your ass.

OK, so what if Luck had an improved completion percentage, just by a couple points, say 56-57%, threw for under 4000 hard, say maybe 3800, but threw for more INTs, say in the high 20s? About the same QB Rating. What's your prognosis then, Dr.?

I'll tell you what THIS Dr.'s prognosis is. I had communications last year with Rey, where I pointed out that every game on virtually every pass Luck threw, he lifted his back foot high off the ground and usually swung it around.......just like a baseball pitcher. There is no way a QB can have any semblance of consistent accuracy with that unbalanced form as the ball is released..........Luck, with his poor completion rate and high INT rate was no exception to the rule last year. If someone has not coached this out of him by this year, expect to see much of the same.

You might want to watch him (and his back foot) in these 2012 highlights. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knD687bBVww) Yes, he completed those passes, but there were as many that ran afoul......and too many into the wrong hands (they don't usually compile highlights on those, do they?).

eriadoc
08-30-2013, 10:00 PM
If this was his 1st & only year as a starter I'd say the jury is still out & he still has to prove he is a starter. Same thing I'm saying now.

Those were Payton Manning's numbers, btw. I was going to start down the Drew Brees road as well, but the whole conversation got tiresome. I don't think anyone is taking your views on QBs seriously at this point. If anyone is, speak up.

potisyourfriend
08-30-2013, 10:04 PM
I'd hate to go off topic here but when will we know who is the backup QB for the Texans?

CloakNNNdagger
08-30-2013, 10:14 PM
I'd hate to go off topic here but when will we know who is the backup QB for the Texans?

Kubiak told the AP that he will make that decision next Thursday (essentially that confirms he is keeping 3 QBs).

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 10:17 PM
Those were Payton Manning's numbers, btw. I was going to start down the Drew Brees road as well, but the whole conversation got tiresome. I don't think anyone is taking your views on QBs seriously at this point. If anyone is, speak up.

That's because many have a reading comprehension problem.

I don't care who those numbers belong to, they do not scream starting QB, much less future H.O.F. I can't remember back to 1998 to remember what people thought of Peyton's rookie season, but he got better his second & third season. If he didn't he wouldn't be a starting QB in the NFL, because those numbers are not good enough for a starting QB in the NFL.

Find me one starter that turned in those numbers year after year & kept his starting job. Other than Blaine Gabbert who most don't believe should be starting.

I can find you several who had numbers similar to Russel Wilson & RG3's rookie season & stayed in the league year after year after year. I can find you several starters who never had numbers as good as RG3 but kept their starting job.

Rey
08-30-2013, 10:20 PM
It's been one year. I think it goes without saying that their careers haven't been written yet.

Carr Bombed
08-30-2013, 10:32 PM
:kubepalm: Is this guy still trying to compare Luck to Elaine?

One guy rarely threw the ball past 10 yards down the field, feels phantom pressure, (Jag fans call him "chuck and duck"), and pees all over the field at the first hint of someone coming close to him. Elaine might be the worst NFL QB I've ever seen... yes even worse than David Carr. Elaine also has zero leadership and can't lead a team in the huddle or in any other faction. When he starts week 1 or 2 (whenever he recovers from injury, he will easily be the worst starting QB in the NFL. Hell I'd take the Bills' emergency UDFA rookie QB over him week 1. There's a reason why "Gabbert didn't have the same amount of pass attempts as Luck". The more he throws the ball, the less of a chance his team has at winning the ball game... it's why MJD has been driven into the ground under Elaine.

The other guy is complete opposite, he will stand tall in the pocket, will sacrifice his body in order to make a big play, whether running the ball or buying time for his receivers down field... and he'll actually look to strike down field. Luck also came in as a rookie and was accepted by veterans as a leader of men and he led them to a 11-5 record

I don't really give a flip what his completion % was as a ROOKIE and I don't care if (outside of passing yards.. NFL record) he didn't put up mind blowing #s (completion % and INTs) like the likes of Cam Newton and Robert Griffin.. I think people are ignoring the usual progression of what is a NFL rookie QB, they usually always struggle and face great adversity. What Griffin and Cam did is NOT NORMAL.. and to a certain extent neither was what Luck did.

Go on the Colts board and tell them Andrew Luck is like Elaine Gabbert, they will laugh at you.

Hell, go on the Jags board and tell them that, they will laugh at you too. :)

Carr Bombed
08-30-2013, 10:39 PM
That's because many have a reading comprehension problem.

I don't care who those numbers belong to, they do not scream starting QB, much less future H.O.F. I can't remember back to 1998 to remember what people thought of Peyton's rookie season, but he got better his second & third season. If he didn't he wouldn't be a starting QB in the NFL, because those numbers are not good enough for a starting QB in the NFL.

Find me one starter that turned in those numbers year after year & kept his starting job. Other than Blaine Gabbert who most don't believe should be starting.

I can find you several who had numbers similar to Russel Wilson & RG3's rookie season & stayed in the league year after year after year. I can find you several starters who never had numbers as good as RG3 but kept their starting job.

One name... that's easy.

Troy Aikman. For grins I'll throw in another.. Eli Manning. Both of these guys represent 5 SB championships and multiple SB MVP trophies. When you throw in Terry Bradshaw, those numbers get even more rediculous. Go figure.

Your problem is your critique is WAY too stat driven. You don't judge a rookie QB by "stats". They usually always hit different hurdles that they have to face as they navigate their way through the learning process of the hardest position to learn in professional sports. You judge them by how they handle those hurdles and are able to overcome them. If you do that, Andrew Luck passed with flying colors and had a fantastic rookie season, but I thought that was obvious. I mean really, who actually believes the guy had a bad season?

Showtime100
08-30-2013, 10:42 PM
Kubiak told the AP that he will make that decision next Thursday (essentially that confirms he is keeping 3 QBs).

I think that is what will happen. I guess that means we need to cut Joe Marciano to make room? :roast:

infantrycak
08-30-2013, 10:44 PM
Those were Payton Manning's numbers, btw.

Yeah and Manning went on to dramatically up his game in his 2nd year. Manning proved himself in his 2nd year, not his 1st. I think that is all TK is saying. Luck's hasn't proven himself with that 1st year and a lot of QBs don't make the kind of 2nd year improvement Manning did.

TK - you are wrong to bring up Gabbert and the numbers would not be close because Gabbert's ypa is 1.6 ypa less so with the same number of attempts as Luck, Gabbert would have thrown for 1003 less yards with 5 less TDs and 1 less INT.

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 11:20 PM
TK - you are wrong to bring up Gabbert and the numbers would not be close because Gabbert's ypa is 1.6 ypa less so with the same number of attempts as Luck, Gabbert would have thrown for 1003 less yards with 5 less TDs and 1 less INT.

Are you using Gabbert's rookie numbers? I meant his 2012 numbers, his numbers as a starter which none of us believe are good enough to be a starter. By my calculations he'd have been 626 yards shy of Luck's numbers, 3 touchdowns short, & thrown 4 to 5 less INTs. Not exactly the same, but close enough to say it ain't good enough.


But, you're right about my point, even if Blaine is a poor example.

thunderkyss
08-30-2013, 11:23 PM
One name... that's easy.

Troy Aikman. For grins I'll throw in another.. Eli Manning. Both of these guys represent 5 SB championships and multiple SB MVP trophies. When you throw in Terry Bradshaw, those numbers get even more rediculous. Go figure.


I see. Forgive me, I thought you knew WTF you were talking about. I was wrong, I won't bother you anymore on this.

Carr Bombed
08-31-2013, 12:23 AM
I see. Forgive me, I thought you knew WTF you were talking about. I was wrong, I won't bother you anymore on this.

Umm, I do know WTF I'm talking about and you know I do... Which is why all you could offer up was this lame ass response above with no actual rebuttal against anything I posted regarding this topic.

"Andrew Luck is comparable to Blaine Gabbert" = :spit: (Just like there's no real competition to the #2 QB spot right?.. you still believe that?)

Do me a favor, go post your opinion on the Jags official message board, you'll have homefield advantage there. I really want to see the comments posted. The fact that you admittedly took a rookie player who led a team that previously had the worst record in the league to a 11-5 record. A player who lost his HC and through his play got his offensive coordinator hired as a now HC in the NFL and then compared said player to a non rookie second year starter who through his play got his HC fired just after one single season, got his GM fired too, and who's team actually brought in Chad Henne to compete with him is a absolute stretch. But continue on with "stats", because they obviously paint the entire picture right :rolleyes:

thunderkyss
08-31-2013, 12:47 AM
Find me one starter that turned in those numbers year after year & kept his starting job. Other than Blaine Gabbert who most don't believe should be starting.



One name... that's easy.

Troy Aikman. For grins I'll throw in another.. Eli Manning. Both of these guys represent 5 SB championships and multiple SB MVP trophies. When you throw in Terry Bradshaw, those numbers get even more rediculous. Go figure.


Nah, you don't know what you're talking about. You even bolded the criteria in in my post. Neither Aikman or Eli turned in Luck type (Gabbert like) numbers year after year & kept their job.

& it's not like you didn't know what numbers I was talking about. eriadoc knew...

Red, I do believe you're talking out of your ass.

OK, so what if Luck had an improved completion percentage, just by a couple points, say 56-57%, threw for under 4000 hard, say maybe 3800, but threw for more INTs, say in the high 20s? About the same QB Rating. What's your prognosis then, Dr.?

I was pretty specific


Andy Luck.... do the math. Blaine Gabbart is a statistical twin. The plug would have been pulled on Luck way before he got close to 4000 yards on a team that didn't keep it close enough to win.

He averaged 1+ Int per game. Nobody brags about a 50% completion percentage or a 76 QBR... that doesn't scream real deal. Especially when you have two rookie QBs who performed much better in RG3 & Russell Wilson; two guys I don't clump together with Luck & Kaepernick. Two guys who have proven they are starting QBs imo.


'cak knew what I was talking about

Yeah and Manning went on to dramatically up his game in his 2nd year. Manning proved himself in his 2nd year, not his 1st. I think that is all TK is saying. Luck's hasn't proven himself with that 1st year and a lot of QBs don't make the kind of 2nd year improvement Manning did.

TK - you are wrong to bring up Gabbert and the numbers would not be close because Gabbert's ypa is 1.6 ypa less so with the same number of attempts as Luck, Gabbert would have thrown for 1003 less yards with 5 less TDs and 1 less INT.

But you're going to tell me that Andrew Luck is a bonafide HoFamer & multi-Super Bowl winning QB averaging 1+ INT per game..... nah, I don't think so. 76 QBR... no way. 54% completion percentage?

If he does this again next year, he'll be out of a job because "real" starting QBs perform better than that. Doesn't matter how good they look throwing the ball to the other team... or how good they look throwing it in the dirt... it's generally considered unacceptable.

Rey
08-31-2013, 01:59 AM
You can't pencil them in for the HOF or say theyll be THE elite QB's for the next 15 yeats and you can't definitively say they won't be either.

I don't understand this argument. If you're going to talk about projections would t it make sense to talk actual football stuff? Like the players abilities and their team outlooks moving forward?

Btw, this young qb's coming in and tearing up the league is kind of new. I don't think it's happened like this before where you have so many good young QB's immediately helping their team in such huge ways. I could be wrong.

Carr Bombed
08-31-2013, 02:24 AM
Nah, you don't know what you're talking about. You even bolded the criteria in in my post. Neither Aikman or Eli turned in Luck type (Gabbert like) numbers year after year & kept their job.

& it's not like you didn't know what numbers I was talking about. eriadoc knew...

I was pretty specific


Actually it wasn't, I didn't know the exact #'s, because most of what you've typed wasn't specific... I just simply winged the #s I chose off of QBs who posted "Gabbert like" stats, that is the criteria right? God knows I couldn't go off of the NFL record breaking passing yards Luck put up, his record breaking amount of 4th quarter comebacks, or his wins and loss record, because that would be stupid.. but since you posted some exact examples of this criteria below,

76 QBR... no way. 54% completion percentage?

I'll go off of that.

Both Eli's and Troy's #s are lower.. granted Troy's completion % was 2.5% higher in his SECOND YEAR STARTING (and if we're going by how you compared Luck to Gabbert, I'm now comparing a rook to the statistical year of 2nd year players) both QBR ratings were lower and they both had a lower TD to INT ratio..


But you're going to tell me that Andrew Luck is a bonafide HoFamer & multi-Super Bowl winning QB averaging 1+ INT per game.....nah, I don't think so.

Please don't stick words in my mouth... post where I ever said Luck was a bonafide HOFer and multi super bowl winning QB?

'cak knew what I was talking about

No he didn't... The biggest hang up here is you comparing Luck to a bust, which 'Cak disagreed with... He knew so much of what you were talking about that he didn't even know which year of Elaine's two year career that you were trying to pin on Luck. There's a difference in a guy saying that he agrees that Luck needs to back up his performance (a performance which you completely wrote off as nothing) and comparing said player to a huge bust.

If he does this again next year, he'll be out of a job because "real" starting QBs perform better than that. Doesn't matter how good they look throwing the ball to the other team... or how good they look throwing it in the dirt... it's generally considered unacceptable.

http://www.soonet.ca/images/smilies/Smile/suicide.gif ??? Trust me.. if Andrew Luck even matches the year he had as a rookie where he broke the rookie record for passing yards and 4th quarter comebacks... he isn't going to be out of a job. I'm sure he'll be able to find work, lol.

Carr Bombed
08-31-2013, 02:31 AM
You can't pencil them in for the HOF or say theyll be THE elite QB's for the next 15 yeats and you can't definitively say they won't be either.

I don't understand this argument. If you're going to talk about projections would t it make sense to talk actual football stuff? Like the players abilities and their team outlooks moving forward?

Btw, this young qb's coming in and tearing up the league is kind of new. I don't think it's happened like this before where you have so many good young QB's immediately helping their team in such huge ways. I could be wrong.

Exactly.. This is actually the point I'm trying to make. Nobody is saying Luck is a HOFer, but he isn't Elaine and actual football plays and ability don't show up in reading a stat line. Anybody who's actually watched both players play can easily tell the difference (and the word "easily" is a understatement). Gabbert sucks and is one good alternative option on the Jaguars' roster from being parked on the bench or completely out of the league.. while Luck has to wear shades because the future is so bright and it burns my ass he's in our division.

thunderkyss
08-31-2013, 09:32 AM
God knows I couldn't go off of the NFL record breaking passing yards Luck put up, his record breaking amount of 4th quarter comebacks, or his wins and loss record, because that would be stupid.. but since you posted some exact examples of this criteria below,


yes it would be stupid to give the QB too much credit for team accomplishments; 4th qtr comebacks, or W-L record.

& he only broke the rookie passing record because the coach left him in the game. Any other QB, like Blaine Gabbert, putting up similar numbers wouldn't be allowed to throw the ball so much, & Blaine is a second year player. Had he not torn his shoulder & played the rest of the season the way he started the season, he'd have finished with 3700 yards, 20 TDs, & 13 INTs

Most people would say that wasn't good enough & I don't understand how another 600 yards, 3 TDs, & 5 INTs would be enough to look at a second QB & say, "Yup, he's the real deal." Or "I want that guy as my starter."






I'll go off of that.

Both Eli's and Troy's #s are lower.. granted Troy's completion % was 2.5% higher in his SECOND YEAR STARTING (and if we're going by how you compared Luck to Gabbert, I'm now comparing a rook to the statistical year of 2nd year players) both QBR ratings were lower and they both had a lower TD to INT ratio..


sigh... all that means is that Aikman sucked his second year.

But yeah, you're right about Eli. He sucked from 2004 through 2007 but managed to keep his job. I recall people questioning his ability, maybe not so much his status as a starter, but definitely as a leader & "elite"

Like Luck, he had a penchant for "come back wins" (which I think are team credits, but alas) & I did admire his toughness, Eli's not Luck's.

So yeah, you were right, I was wrong. You were able to find a QB that played as poorly as Luck & managed to keep his job for multiple years. Who knows, maybe Blane Gabbert will win multiple Super Bowls too.

Lucky
08-31-2013, 09:45 AM
How has Luck become the focal point in a Case Keenum thread?

ArlingtonTexan
08-31-2013, 10:06 AM
How has Luck become the focal point in a Case Keenum thread?

Well, conversations do flow in weird directions naturally, but then again there are those poster who want to smarter than the rest of us.

HJam72
08-31-2013, 10:09 AM
How has Luck become the focal point in a Case Keenum thread?

He feels lucky. :trophy:

Carr Bombed
08-31-2013, 10:17 AM
How has Luck become the focal point in a Case Keenum thread?

This guy above, this guy from day one has had a habitual problem with seeing the obvious (Like being able to sit back and witness a QB competition that was obvious to EVERYONE). Like Tex mentioned, He just might be a troll. I'm a Texans fan through and through, but also pay attention to our divisional rivals. How anybody can actually compare Luck to Elaine is beyond me.

escrimador
08-31-2013, 10:22 AM
How has Luck become the focal point in a Case Keenum thread?

Uhh, probably because Keenum would never have thrown as many interceptions as Luck?:pursefight:

thunderkyss
08-31-2013, 10:24 AM
You'll never see me calling another poster names, or insulting their good reputations.

Case will be #3, won't be active on game day. Kubiak put on a good show, fooled some of us. But Case was never going to be more than #3.

TexanDave
08-31-2013, 10:29 AM
You'll never see me calling another poster names, or insulting their good reputations.

Case will be #3, won't be active on game day. Kubiak put on a good show, fooled some of us. But Case was never going to be more than #3.

Keenum will be #3 this year but to say he never had a chance is to seem like you just don't like him. Yates actually stepped up his game this preseason. IF he hadn't, Keenum would have done enough to be #2.

Rey
08-31-2013, 10:38 AM
You'll never see me calling another poster names, or insulting their good reputations.

Case will be #3, won't be active on game day. Kubiak put on a good show, fooled some of us. But Case was never going to be more than #3.

Well I'll go ahead and make a statement I have nothing to back it up with too - if Yates had played poorly, case would be the back up. But since it was about even experience and familiarity won out. Had Yates played poorly case would be the no brainier for back up.

drs23
08-31-2013, 10:38 AM
No it doesn't





LOL, now you're comparing Luck to Elaine Gabbert? :kubepalm: Wow.


Also it's true that one man doesn't win 11 games, but a very good QB gives you the chance to win every week. A very good QB can step in and from day #1 and can turn the worst team in the entire league from a year before and take the team to the playoffs.... Luck did that. Elaine Gabbert will be released before he ever sniffs the playoffs as a starting QB.

Yup. Very much this.^^^^ I can't recall a QB that gets the ol' "deer in the headlights" look quicker or more consistently than poor Elaine.

"Whoa M'FKR!" I loved that!

steelbtexan
08-31-2013, 10:47 AM
Comparing Luck to Gabbert = LOL

This argument is another version of Shaub's a winner vs Schaub stinks in big games argument.

Stats dont make QB's winners. I think TK is a stats guy who must not have watched Luck play last yr. Outside of Luck helping keep up the annual tradition of kicking the Texans butts in Indy.

thunderkyss
08-31-2013, 10:48 AM
Keenum will be #3 this year but to say he never had a chance is to seem like you just don't like him. Yates actually stepped up his game this preseason. IF he hadn't, Keenum would have done enough to be #2.

I don't like him. I don't hate him.

I think he has a good chance of being our QB of the future, more so than Tj. But we're thinking Super Bowl & there's no way Kubiak is going to go into his 3rd play-off game three years in a row with a QB who's never played in a play-off game if he can help it.

Regardless how poorly/great they played in the preseason.

thunderkyss
08-31-2013, 10:57 AM
Comparing Luck to Gabbert = LOL

This argument is another version of Shaub's a winner vs Schaub stinks in big games argument.

Stats dont make QB's winners. I think TK is a stats guy who must not have watched Luck play last yr. Outside of Luck helping keep up the annual tradition of kicking the Texans butts in Indy.

I've watched Luck plenty, not impressed. I've seen many QBs come & go that played as well, or as poorly as Luck, you have too, in recent years there've been several rookies with better seasons. Maybe not W-L, but again, that's more about the team than the QB.

Mark Sanchez was guaranteed $12M in 2012 & is guaranteed $8M in 2013 because of his 2010 W-L record & we see how that's working out don't we?

If it makes you feel better to compare Luck with Sanchez... let's do that, because that's all he proved. That he can play as well as Sanchez or Blane. 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other, so far, same guy.

Andrew Luck can separate himself from them this year, but what's in question now, is what he proved in 2012 & he hasn't proven to be much different than Mark Sanchez (Blane Gabbert if you will).

legacy_gt
08-31-2013, 11:49 AM
I don't like him. I don't hate him.

I think he has a good chance of being our QB of the future, more so than Tj. But we're thinking Super Bowl & there's no way Kubiak is going to go into his 3rd play-off game three years in a row with a QB who's never played in a play-off game if he can help it.

Regardless how poorly/great they played in the preseason.

I can agree with this post. However, at some point the Texans are going to cross that line. I still put Case in over TJ during playoffs if that happened. Case will shine if given the chance. He can throw the long ball, fast release short ball, knows the playbook, plus he can run better than the other 2.

thunderkyss
08-31-2013, 11:59 AM
I can agree with this post. However, at some point the Texans are going to cross that line. I still put Case in over TJ during playoffs if that happened. Case will shine if given the chance. He can throw the long ball, fast release short ball, knows the playbook, plus he can run better than the other 2.

He'll get his opportunity soon enough.

Carr Bombed
08-31-2013, 01:45 PM
I've watched Luck plenty, not impressed. I've seen many QBs come & go that played as well, or as poorly as Luck, you have too, in recent years there've been several rookies with better seasons. Maybe not W-L, but again, that's more about the team than the QB.

Mark Sanchez was guaranteed $12M in 2012 & is guaranteed $8M in 2013 because of his 2010 W-L record & we see how that's working out don't we?

If it makes you feel better to compare Luck with Sanchez... let's do that, because that's all he proved. That he can play as well as Sanchez or Blane. 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other, so far, same guy.

Andrew Luck can separate himself from them this year, but what's in question now, is what he proved in 2012 & he hasn't proven to be much different than Mark Sanchez (Blane Gabbert if you will).

:kubepalm: now his saving grace is Luck = the butt fumble king. :kubepalm:

thunderkyss
08-31-2013, 02:27 PM
:kubepalm: now his saving grace is Luck = the butt fumble king. :kubepalm:

The butt fumbler took a 9-7 team to the play-offs when HoF Bret Favre couldn't. He took that 9-7 team to the AFC Championship game as a rookie. He followed it up his sophomore season by taking that 9-7 team to 11-5 & another AFC Championship game.

We've seen nothing that should lead anyone to believe Andrew Luck won't be a butt fumbler himself 4 years from now. Same as if we were looking at Sanchez at the end of 2009.....

& yes, it's silly to say Sanchez took the Jets to the AFC Championship game, just like it's silly to say Luck took the Colts to 11-5 (that's my point, before you ask).

GuerillaBlack
08-31-2013, 02:44 PM
The butt fumbler took a 9-7 team to the play-offs when HoF Bret Favre couldn't. He took that 9-7 team to the AFC Championship game as a rookie. He followed it up his sophomore season by taking that 9-7 team to 11-5 & another AFC Championship game.

We've seen nothing that should lead anyone to believe Andrew Luck won't be a butt fumbler himself 4 years from now. Same as if we were looking at Sanchez at the end of 2009.....

& yes, it's silly to say Sanchez took the Jets to the AFC Championship game, just like it's silly to say Luck took the Colts to 11-5 (that's my point, before you ask).

Well the obvious big differences being Sanchez had one of the league's best defenses and running games to help him out. Luck had Luck. He put the Indy team on his back. We have seen what Sanchez does when he has to put the team on his back (the butt fumble).

Carr Bombed
08-31-2013, 04:13 PM
The butt fumbler took a 9-7 team to the play-offs when HoF Bret Favre couldn't. He took that 9-7 team to the AFC Championship game as a rookie. He followed it up his sophomore season by taking that 9-7 team to 11-5 & another AFC Championship game.

We've seen nothing that should lead anyone to believe Andrew Luck won't be a butt fumbler himself 4 years from now. Same as if we were looking at Sanchez at the end of 2009.....

& yes, it's silly to say Sanchez took the Jets to the AFC Championship game, just like it's silly to say Luck took the Colts to 11-5 (that's my point, before you ask).

More evidence of you simply hating especially when you compare Sanchez getting a ride to the AFC championship.

thunderkyss
08-31-2013, 04:16 PM
More evidence of you simply hating especially when you compare Sanchez getting a ride to the AFC championship and Luck actually leading them there

The team that couldn't carry Bret Favre to the play offs just happen to be handing out free rides to the AFC Championship game?

:ok:

infantrycak
08-31-2013, 04:21 PM
The team that couldn't carry Bret Favre to the play offs just happen to be handing out free rides to the AFC Championship game?

:ok:

Rex Ryan took over the team and the D went from #18 to #1. The O went from #9 to #17. Those are on points.

Carr Bombed
08-31-2013, 04:35 PM
The team that couldn't carry Bret Favre to the play offs just happen to be handing out free rides to the AFC Championship game?

:ok:

"dennis goes to the dentist"


Is this real life.

My god :kubepalm: You Really hate Luck don't you?

ObsiWan
08-31-2013, 05:42 PM
Three years from now if Luck is putting up the same numbers, he won't be a starter.


The only numbers that really count are wins and losses. If, three years from now, Luck is at the helm of a team that is still posting double digit wins AND finding a way to squeak into the playoffs, he'll still be starting.

So will Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick, and RGIII.

Edited for clarity:
I AM convinced that the Colts' success last year was due, in no insignificant part, to them playing for their coach who was battling cancer. Luck didn't hurt them ...much but he didn't "carry" them as some talking heads are giving him credit for doing. That emotional wave they rode last year won't be in play this year.
Plus teams have a whole year of "tape" on Luck himself.
Let's see what happens.

76Texan
08-31-2013, 05:47 PM
Is Luck a backup QB for the Texans now?

In other news, let's cut Keenum and bring back Carr. :pinned:

thunderkyss
08-31-2013, 05:50 PM
The only numbers that really count are wins and losses. If, three years from now, Luck is at the helm of a team that is still posting double digit wins AND finding a way to squeak into the playoffs, he'll still be starting.

I agree with that & addressed it with the Mark Sanchez comparison... the Jets are paying for that now.

thunderkyss
08-31-2013, 05:57 PM
Is Luck a backup QB for the Texans now?

In other news, let's cut Keenum and bring back Carr. :pinned:

I really don't care whether Case is the back up, or Yates. I think either has the talent & tools to replace Matt (when that day comes). But I know the odds are that neither of them will.

It would be better for the Texans if they can play in this league. If Matt is to be replaced by either of these guys, I hope it is truly an upgrade, not just in mobility & want to, but in efficiency & competitiveness as well.

To me, Yates looks like a baller, Keenum looks like a winner. I'm glad they're both here.

& who knows, chances are I'm wrong & Kubiak names Keenum the back up for Sept 9.

infantrycak
08-31-2013, 06:51 PM
The only numbers that really count are wins and losses.

Exactly!!!

Signed,

11-1 Super Bowl Champion Trent "Pink Slip" Dilfer

Wolf
08-31-2013, 06:55 PM
Guess we are to the point where the most popular person is the QB...and when the backup becomes the starting QB, we still love our backup

DocBar
08-31-2013, 10:14 PM
The only numbers that really count are wins and losses. That is the most abused stat ever. Wins and losses are pure TEAM stats. I hate it when QB's are credited with them. Head coaches, OK. They have a big role in both sides of the ball. Honestly, W-L's should be used to judge HC's and GM's and nothing more. I have yet to see a QB throw a hail mary to himself for a game winning TD.

Carr Bombed
08-31-2013, 10:22 PM
How many people feel that when we're facing Sanchez when we're playing against Luck and the Colts? (since both QBs are comparable.. like Luck is to Tebow, Gabbert, and now Sanchez), if you do.. raise your hands

Norg
08-31-2013, 10:27 PM
Kubes will prob do the safe move

and just keep 2 QB's Matt and TJ and put Chase back on the PS team and just gamble and hope he clears waivers .... if not o wellnice knowing u Kase maybe he could come back in 2 years or somethin if it does not work out where ever he goes

DocBar
08-31-2013, 10:29 PM
Kubes will prob do the safe move

and just keep 2 QB's Matt and TJ and put Chase back on the PS team and just gamble and hope he clears waivers .... if not o wellnice knowing u Kase maybe he could come back in 2 years or somethin if it does not work out where ever he goesYour time zone is AFU. Kubiak kept all three hours ago.

legacy_gt
08-31-2013, 11:03 PM
Kubes will prob do the safe move

and just keep 2 QB's Matt and TJ and put Chase back on the PS team and just gamble and hope he clears waivers .... if not o wellnice knowing u Kase maybe he could come back in 2 years or somethin if it does not work out where ever he goes

where have u been? lol

Norg
09-01-2013, 03:50 AM
so its final aren't there ore cuts ..???

paycheck71
09-01-2013, 08:16 AM
so its final aren't there ore cuts ..???

Only if they want to alter the roster by picking up another player. These 53 have their salaries guaranteed for the year.

Lucky
09-01-2013, 08:32 AM
Only if they want to alter the roster by picking up another player. These 53 have their salaries guaranteed for the year.
Only players with 4 years or more of service will have their contracts guaranteed for the year.

ChampionTexan
09-01-2013, 08:55 AM
Only players with 4 years or more of service will have their contracts guaranteed for the year.

Which makes it applicable to only 20 players (give or take) on the Texans current 53 man roster.

In regard to his point about cuts only being needed "if they want to alter the roster by picking up another player" that's almost true. They're going to have to let someone go after week one when Antonio Smith's suspension is over. While I would be extremely surprised if that ended up being Case, it's gonna be someone (and FWIW, my guess is either Cody White or Andrew Gardner).

paycheck71
09-01-2013, 08:58 AM
Only players with 4 years or more of service will have their contracts guaranteed for the year.

Didn't know that. Thanks! MSR. Always thought that once you've made the original 53, you got paid for the year.

thunderkyss
09-01-2013, 09:31 AM
How many people feel that when we're facing Sanchez when we're playing against Luck and the Colts? (since both QBs are comparable.. like Luck is to Tebow, Gabbert, and now Sanchez), if you do.. raise your hands

This discussion really belongs in another thread (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2201072&postcount=6)

thunderkyss
09-01-2013, 09:35 AM
Your time zone is AFU. Kubiak kept all three hours ago.

I don't think it's going to happen, but when Antonio's suspension is over, they can cut Case & sign him to the practice squad if he clears waivers, & if Case's Agent can't do his job. If I were Case I wouldn't sign to the practice squad.

But someone else mentioned it. Most teams will probably have their plans set in stone more or less by week 2. Not sure if Case has shown enough in preseason to make them change those plans that late. If one of his UH coaches were to be in the NFL I could see it, but as far as I know, they're still at UH or A&M.

speedfreek
09-01-2013, 09:49 AM
If Case is not cut, will you shave your head?

Seriously. I've seen so many people on here convinced that
Case is just so underserving of a roster spot..

I have a hunch neither of these QB's see any kind of waver
wire. You seemed to actually be hoping it does for some reason.

Potential trade value, alone, makes cutting either QB
a short-sighted decision.

If you do think it happens (or really want it to), put your money
(so to speak) where your mouth is

Shave your head, or get a tat, or something.. After all,
you seem to have such conviction..

TJ


I don't think it's going to happen, but when Antonio's suspension is over, they can cut Case & sign him to the practice squad if he clears waivers, & if Case's Agent can't do his job. If I were Case I wouldn't sign to the practice squad.

But someone else mentioned it. Most teams will probably have their plans set in stone more or less by week 2. Not sure if Case has shown enough in preseason to make them change those plans that late. If one of his UH coaches were to be in the NFL I could see it, but as far as I know, they're still at UH or A&M.

thunderkyss
09-01-2013, 09:55 AM
If Case is not cut, will you shave your head?

Seriously. I've seen so many people on here convinced that
Case is just so underserving of a roster spot..

I have a hunch neither of these QB's see any kind of waver
wire.

If you do, put your money (so to speak) where your mouth
is.

Shave your head, or get a tat, or something.. After all,
you seem to have such conviction..

TJ

I didn't say I believe he should be cut, I simply presented a scenario, the "gift" of Antonio's suspension.

I will however shave my head if Kubiak names him the back up QB for Sept 9..... will you do the same if Tj is the back up?

I'll make it easy for you. If Keenum is the back up Sept 9, I'll shave my head, take a picture & use it for my avatar for the rest of the year.

If Tj is the back up all the way to the bye week, you should do the same for the remainder of the season. To save your locks, all Case has to do is be on the active roster (dress for a game) before the bye.

Don't matter to me if Schaub gets hurt, or Gary feels like dressing 3 QBs, or if Case is named the #2 for whatever reason before the bye....

What do you say?

drs23
09-01-2013, 06:33 PM
I didn't say I believe he should be cut, I simply presented a scenario, the "gift" of Antonio's suspension.

I will however shave my head if Kubiak names him the back up QB for Sept 9..... will you do the same if Tj is the back up?

I'll make it easy for you. If Keenum is the back up Sept 9, I'll shave my head, take a picture & use it for my avatar for the rest of the year.

If Tj is the back up all the way to the bye week, you should do the same for the remainder of the season. To save your locks, all Case has to do is be on the active roster (dress for a game) before the bye.

Don't matter to me if Schaub gets hurt, or Gary feels like dressing 3 QBs, or if Case is named the #2 for whatever reason before the bye....

What do you say?

:popcorn:

silvrhand
09-01-2013, 06:43 PM
I didn't say I believe he should be cut, I simply presented a scenario, the "gift" of Antonio's suspension.

I will however shave my head if Kubiak names him the back up QB for Sept 9..... will you do the same if Tj is the back up?

I'll make it easy for you. If Keenum is the back up Sept 9, I'll shave my head, take a picture & use it for my avatar for the rest of the year.

If Tj is the back up all the way to the bye week, you should do the same for the remainder of the season. To save your locks, all Case has to do is be on the active roster (dress for a game) before the bye.

Don't matter to me if Schaub gets hurt, or Gary feels like dressing 3 QBs, or if Case is named the #2 for whatever reason before the bye....

What do you say?

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/721975552/hAC27044C/

ObsiWan
09-01-2013, 07:28 PM
I didn't say I believe he should be cut, I simply presented a scenario, the "gift" of Antonio's suspension.

I will however shave my head if Kubiak names him the back up QB for Sept 9..... will you do the same if Tj is the back up?

I'll make it easy for you. If Keenum is the back up Sept 9, I'll shave my head, take a picture & use it for my avatar for the rest of the year.

If Tj is the back up all the way to the bye week, you should do the same for the remainder of the season. To save your locks, all Case has to do is be on the active roster (dress for a game) before the bye.

Don't matter to me if Schaub gets hurt, or Gary feels like dressing 3 QBs, or if Case is named the #2 for whatever reason before the bye....

What do you say?

Hey, your head isn't already shaved is it (mine is)? Shaved heads are in now soooo....

speedfreek
09-01-2013, 07:39 PM
Don't change the subject. I never said Case would be named #2.
Just that he had the talent to play in the NFL -- and make a
roster..

For the last month you've been sliding in backhanded statements
about Keenum.

It's clear to me you think his spot on the roster is a waste. Well,
let's see if you're right.

I cannot predict who Gary names #2. If he wants to trade Yates
it would make sense to name him #2 even if he didn't feel he
was the second best QB on the roster. (silly wager for anyone
to take because naming a #2 doesn't depend on what a coach
feels a players value will be down the road)

You think people like Luck and Wilson are doomed to failure, and
consistently have argued that Yates is superior. It was only
when it was clear that Keenum was destined for the 53 that your
tone changed.

So I'm looking forward to your bald cranium when Keenum is
still collecting a paycheck come playoff time..

TJ


I didn't say I believe he should be cut, I simply presented a scenario, the "gift" of Antonio's suspension.

I will however shave my head if Kubiak names him the back up QB for Sept 9..... will you do the same if Tj is the back up?

I'll make it easy for you. If Keenum is the back up Sept 9, I'll shave my head, take a picture & use it for my avatar for the rest of the year.

If Tj is the back up all the way to the bye week, you should do the same for the remainder of the season. To save your locks, all Case has to do is be on the active roster (dress for a game) before the bye.

Don't matter to me if Schaub gets hurt, or Gary feels like dressing 3 QBs, or if Case is named the #2 for whatever reason before the bye....

What do you say?

thunderkyss
09-01-2013, 08:08 PM
Don't change the subject. I never said Case would be named #2.
Just that he had the talent to play in the NFL -- and make a
roster..

For the last month you've been sliding in backhanded statements
about Keenum.

It's clear to me you think his spot on the roster is a waste. Well,
let's see if you're right.

I cannot predict who Gary names #2. If he wants to trade Yates
it would make sense to name him #2 even if he didn't feel he
was the second best QB on the roster. (silly wager for anyone
to take because naming a #2 doesn't depend on what a coach
feels a players value will be down the road)

You think people like Luck and Wilson are doomed to failure, and
consistently have argued that Yates is superior. It was only
when it was clear that Keenum was destined for the 53 that your
tone changed.

So I'm looking forward to your bald cranium when Keenum is
still collecting a paycheck come playoff time..

TJ

I see. Big misunderstanding somewhere.

I do not hate Case Keenum. If the future Texans QB is on the roster, I believe it's Case. However, I think the offense, as it is, is designed for Schaub and he's our best option to run it at the moment. If something were to happen to Schaub I believe Tj is the better option to replace Schaub.

However, I think we're in a transition period & if our WRs turn out to be who we think they are, it would be easy to transition to a more dynamic Case Keenum offense. I think that is the type of offense Kubiak had in mind when he started this thing back in 2006. By mid season I wouldn't be surprised if Case is named the back up for what would look like no reason to us.

I also do not believe Luck is doomed, definitely don't think Wilson is. There's a clear difference between RG3/Wilson & Kaepernick/Luck. IMO, RG3/Wilson had the kind of season Lucks hype would have suggested. Luck did not. I have never said that Luck can not develop into a great QB, only that I think it's silly that people act like he already has.

silvrhand
09-01-2013, 11:00 PM
I see. Big misunderstanding somewhere.

I do not hate Case Keenum. If the future Texans QB is on the roster, I believe it's Case. However, I think the offense, as it is, is designed for Schaub and he's our best option to run it at the moment. If something were to happen to Schaub I believe Tj is the better option to replace Schaub.

However, I think we're in a transition period & if our WRs turn out to be who we think they are, it would be easy to transition to a more dynamic Case Keenum offense. I think that is the type of offense Kubiak had in mind when he started this thing back in 2006. By mid season I wouldn't be surprised if Case is named the back up for what would look like no reason to us.

I also do not believe Luck is doomed, definitely don't think Wilson is. There's a clear difference between RG3/Wilson & Kaepernick/Luck. IMO, RG3/Wilson had the kind of season Lucks hype would have suggested. Luck did not. I have never said that Luck can not develop into a great QB, only that I think it's silly that people act like he already has.

Disagree, I think this is exactly the offense that Kubiak wants to run, if he wanted a more dynamic QB he would have drafted one by now. He went out and found Schaub and knew what he was getting.

Corrosion
09-01-2013, 11:09 PM
Disagree, I think this is exactly the offense that Kubiak wants to run, if he wanted a more dynamic QB he would have drafted one by now. He went out and found Schaub and knew what he was getting.

I can tell you without question that Kubiak would like a more "dynamic" QB ... thing is this team is built to win NOW. Schaub is capable of taking this team to the superbowl - pending the running game is effective and the defense does its part.

If they didn't have so much invested in Schaub and weren't "in the title hunt" they would most definitely be trying to fill that most important position .... but they don't have three years to wait for a draft pick to take them to the promised land.


Yeah , some will point to Kaepernick , RG3 , Wilson & Luck and tell us "A rookie can win now" ..... but history proves them dead wrong - When's the last time a rookie QB won a superbowl ?!! (Never?!)


If you have superbowl aspirations the proven course is to have a veteran QB ....

DocBar
09-01-2013, 11:20 PM
Disagree, I think this is exactly the offense that Kubiak wants to run, if he wanted a more dynamic QB he would have drafted one by now. He went out and found Schaub and knew what he was getting.Go back over the teams Kubiak has had and all of the holes that needed to be plugged elsewhere. There really wasn't a chance to draft a more dynamic QB than the guy he did draft (Yates) and the guy that fell in his lap (Keenum).

Schaub has been a good enough system QB that targeting a QB early in the draft wasn't a necessity the last few years. The team could fill in the bigger holes and make the natural progression to a legitimate contender. Mission accomplished. Now the team can focus on getting better at the QB position. About the only thing I can think of that will keep Schaub on the team next season is a Super Bowl appearance. Any semblance of a late season/playoff stumble will be the end of him in Houston.

infantrycak
09-01-2013, 11:26 PM
Yeah , some will point to Kaepernick , RG3 , Wilson & Luck and tell us "A rookie can win now" ..... but history proves them dead wrong - When's the last time a rookie QB won a superbowl ?!! (Never?!)

It's worse than that - no rookie has ever made it to a Super Bowl.

76Texan
09-02-2013, 12:11 AM
I can tell you without question that Kubiak would like a more "dynamic" QB ... thing is this team is built to win NOW. Schaub is capable of taking this team to the superbowl - pending the running game is effective and the defense does its part.

If they didn't have so much invested in Schaub and weren't "in the title hunt" they would most definitely be trying to fill that most important position .... but they don't have three years to wait for a draft pick to take them to the promised land.


Yeah , some will point to Kaepernick , RG3 , Wilson & Luck and tell us "A rookie can win now" ..... but history proves them dead wrong - When's the last time a rookie QB won a superbowl ?!! (Never?!)


If you have superbowl aspirations the proven course is to have a veteran QB ....
By the time the SB rolls around, Keenum will be older than 9 other QBs who had been to the big game (at the respective time in their career), and Yates is like 6 or 7 months older than that.

Five of those guys won the SB.
So while it is true that no rookie ever won the SB, there have been guys in their second and third year that had won big.

steelbtexan
09-02-2013, 12:18 AM
It's worse than that - no rookie has ever made it to a Super Bowl.

How many rookie QB's are currently on the roster?

Schaub should be the starting QB this yr.

If he gets injured again who does Gary turn too?

DocBar
09-02-2013, 12:23 AM
How many rookie QB's are currently on the roster?

Schaub should be the starting QB this yr.

If he gets injured again who does Gary turn too?Ummm....Yates and Keenum. Be glad that we don't have a rookie behind Schaub. Haven't you been paying attention?

infantrycak
09-02-2013, 12:28 AM
How many rookie QB's are currently on the roster?

Schaub should be the starting QB this yr.

If he gets injured again who does Gary turn too?

The discussion was about a draft pick replacing Schaub = rookie = not on the roster.

To answer your question about the current roster, I think Kubiak would go down the depth chart. I do not think he would wait for an injury and then say "I changed my mind and am going to start the #3 guy even though #2 has not played and isn't injured."

ChampionTexan
09-02-2013, 12:55 AM
One - Keenum

b0ng
09-02-2013, 12:58 AM
One - Keenum

Is in his second year

ChampionTexan
09-02-2013, 01:09 AM
Is in his second year

How many games has he been a member of a 53 man roster?

silvrhand
09-02-2013, 03:25 AM
Go back over the teams Kubiak has had and all of the holes that needed to be plugged elsewhere. There really wasn't a chance to draft a more dynamic QB than the guy he did draft (Yates) and the guy that fell in his lap (Keenum).

Schaub has been a good enough system QB that targeting a QB early in the draft wasn't a necessity the last few years. The team could fill in the bigger holes and make the natural progression to a legitimate contender. Mission accomplished. Now the team can focus on getting better at the QB position. About the only thing I can think of that will keep Schaub on the team next season is a Super Bowl appearance. Any semblance of a late season/playoff stumble will be the end of him in Houston.

The Texans have drafted what two QB's since he took over? Alex Brink and Yates, while I agree time is running out for Schaub, I don't think he's seriously made a stab at another QB.

Carr Bombed
09-02-2013, 06:21 AM
This discussion really belongs in another thread (http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2201072&postcount=6)

:headhurts: have you gone completely mental?

So now we've gone from you completely ignoring what was a obvious QB competition from day one and proclaiming Case was never going to make the roster from the start of camp to you now challenging people to shave their heads if the guy isn't the backup?

WOW, if you really had a pair, you would shave your head right now since Case already made the final cut on principal alone, since he's already proven you wrong.

HJam72
09-02-2013, 06:50 AM
Just rewatched the Cowboys game a few hours ago. All I can say about Keenum is WOW. He drops in the over-the-shoulder passes like Air McNair.

thunderkyss
09-02-2013, 09:17 AM
:headhurts: have you gone completely mental?

...proclaiming Case was never going to make the roster from the start of camp

When did I ever say Keenum was never going to make the roster?

Thorn
09-02-2013, 09:38 AM
At this point it's all pissing in the wind anyway. Next Monday the regular season starts and Keenum is on the team. Be he 3rd string or 2nd string, either is fine with me, and long as we still got him.

Texecutioner
09-02-2013, 03:41 PM
When did I ever say Keenum was never going to make the roster?

Read the thread and your own words. You've stated that their is no competition this entire time and that the team won't carry 3 QB's. You have indirectly suggested it this entire time. You've also done it with very poor reasoning and logic as well.

thunderkyss
09-02-2013, 04:51 PM
nvm....

thunderkyss
09-02-2013, 05:05 PM
highlights of a post I made 4 weeks ago.

That's understandable, well thought out. But I think Kubiak understands there is a good chance we're going to see both of these QBs in 2013, in the event that Schaub gets hurt, so he needs both of them ready, which supports putting Keenum on the fast track. He doesn't want to put Keenum in the same situation Yates was in two years ago, thrown to the wolves with nothing but scout team reps (Yates didn't have any reps in our system other than what he had in camp before Lienart got here).

So I believe Kubiak looks at them as 2a & 2b. There's no real "competition" Yates will be the back up & Keenum will be ready to go if needed.
...


I'm rooting for Keenum, but I'm also rooting for Tj as long as we get a guy that gives us a chance to go all the way, I don't care which.


Everything I've said since is in-line with this post.

Carr Bombed
09-02-2013, 05:58 PM
highlights of a post I made 4 weeks ago.




Everything I've said since is in-line with this post.

I'm going to start calling you Snoop Lion, because you blow more smoke up people's asses than anyone I know.

EllisUnit
09-02-2013, 06:02 PM
I'm going to start calling you Snoop Lion, because you blow more smoke up people's asses than anyone I know.

You know what they say......

Even the little engine who could tooted his own horn :)

Naaa i dont think they really say that, but it is true

Playoffs
09-05-2013, 01:34 PM
John McClain ‏@McClain_on_NFL
Kubiak makes it official Yates is backup and Keenum third.

htownfan32
09-05-2013, 02:20 PM
God, I think we just need to get hot pink "Team TJ" and lavender "Team Case" t-shirts made for this entire forum.

I love Keenum's improvement. Yates has experience. Kubes made the right call, I think. But by next season, if Keenum keeps up the upward trend, that could change.