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ArTex
08-13-2013, 01:35 PM
Hitting receivers in stride is a hallmark of YAC. That's a very good thing that Keenum hit receivers short and they had more YAC. The WCO is predicated on that very dynamic. Having low YAC means the QB either held the ball to long or didn't lead his receiver properly.

That, it is.

ObsiWan
08-13-2013, 01:47 PM
A difference I was trying to point out between the play of Yates and the play of Keenum. :clap:MSR:clap:

Got him for ya.
:barman:


Edit (What Kubiak sees in Case (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Quotes-Kubiak-Saturday-press-conference/4cf31ec6-2569-44c8-bf73-c09c243303bb))
(on what he looks for when watching QB Case Keenum) “Well I think as a coach, you are always looking for instincts. You sit there and coach the game and you coach plays and ‘throw it here’ and ‘throw it on time’, but once the lights go on, probably half the game is played off schedule and played off rhythm. It’s just the way it is. He’s kind of got that knack when things aren’t the way they are supposed to be, he finds a way to make plays. Kind of like the play he made in the red zone moving around the other night. We caught a blitz last night that nobody knows that we couldn’t block, but he gets the ball out in the flat and doesn’t take a sack. He can do those types of things and he can really bail you out of some bad situations with his athletic ability.”

I don't have a photographic memory or anything close to it, but I don't recall hearing Kubiak say that about Yates.


...or Schaub come to think about it... but that could just be my bad memory.

badboy
08-13-2013, 01:56 PM
It would be great if what we thought was taken into account by Kubiak.... but it's not. If Kubiak was as unimpressed as you were in Tj's performance, he'd have brought someone in to compete with Tj last season. Since he did not, I assume he saw enough in Tj to think he could be at the very least a decent insurance policy in the event Schaub doesn't play 16 games in 2012. The goal then was Super Bowl, same as it is today.

I mentioned in another thread, completions, TDs, ratings, etc.... or lack thereof are not as important as knowing the playbook, running the offense as designed, getting the ball out on time, & taking care of the football. So what we saw in the preseason last season most likely wasn't what Kubiak saw in the preseason last year.

Before anyone says I'm contradicting myself, I said "not as important" not "not important" If he's got the playbook, runs the offense, gets the ball out on time, & takes care of the football (the fundamentals) + the numbers, that's an A+ grade. If he's got the numbers, but not the fundamentals (as defined earlier) that's a C grade. If he's got the fundamentals but not the numbers, that's a B+ or something similar.

Kubiak can plan around the fundamentals. He can give his team a reasonable chance to win if he can reasonably expect a certain level of "production." We saw it with Tj the rookie, we saw it with the 2012 OL & WRs. It's much more difficult to squeeze out wins if he's got a maverick QB (not that Case is maverick) or wild variations of performance from key components of his offense. We saw that with Tj the rookie as well. We saw it with Jacoby.TK, Kubes did bring in Keenum to compete and signed him May 2012. Then gave him a two year deal for $900,000 for 2013/14.

GuerillaBlack
08-13-2013, 03:12 PM
Coming from a completely unbiased Texas point of view, and a completely biased Houston Texans point of view, I'm really happy we have two capable QBs playing behind Schaub.

For one, it's good to have solid depth just in case we get unlucky, and for two, it will keep Matt on his toes. I want Schaub to succeed, but I'm still pretty salty about seeing him throw balls at his feet, even when the play was still alive in the playoffs against the Patriots.

As for the "backup quarterback" controversy, I think Case comes close but Yates wins out at least for this season. The NFL is a "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately?" kind of league, and people remember the last time Yates was given consistent time as a starter, he performed. I still remember TJ's drive against the Bengals that finally clinched that elusive playoff berth. He performed admirably that season with the reps.

Just to play devil's advocate, does anyone remember that play in TJ's first start against the Falcons, play action by design, TJ stumbles initially, regains balance and hits Johnson in stride over the middle deep? Had Case done that exact play, this site would be shut down due to traffic.

Case is talented no doubt (I also understand cheering for homegrown talent, for basketball fans, Wiggins is a big deal right now in Toronto), but he faces an uphill battle as an undrafted QB. For me, and others, you've got to bring Kurt Warner, Warren Moon, and Tony Romo into the discussion when bringing up undrafted yet successful QBs.

For Warner and Moon however, they both had to not only experience failure, but also found playing time elsewhere before being given a shot. Warner was cut and ended up almost completely ditching the sport, but found a niche in the Arena Football League, built up confidence then the rest is history. Moon played in the CFL, was amazing, and then the NFL bid on him realizing they messed up.

Romo is a bit of a different story. He was brought onto a team that didn't exactly have any competition. Chad Hutchinson, who was a baseball player first really, wasn't anything, Vinny Testaverde was brought in to really mentor guys like Carter (who failed his drug test, and was also another baseball guy), and Bledsoe was simply running his victory lap at this point. This scenario and strong support from Sean Payton is what allowed Romo to dart up the depth chart.

At the same time, some people who use Romo as an example of an undrafted QB, have also ripped Romo as a QB in the past. :kitten:

Either way, I think Yates wins out, but if Case succeeds and beats the odds, even better because I know the coaching staff will make the right call for this team. If Case gets it, it's because he earned it, and not because of UH bias like some people. And that's the way it should be, because this team is entering uncharted territory, we expect a Super Bowl now, so we should put forth the best team possible.

I don't get it. When that play happened, people were all over this board saying Schaub could never do that (he couldn't). Why would Keenum be any different, especially when he also went to college in the city. Go dig up the giant threads from the 2011 season on Yates vs Schaub.

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 04:41 PM
Got him for ya.
:barman:



Funny thing is, we get YAC. Andre, Jacoby, OD, Arian... they catch the ball, then they turn it up-field. But we'll still criticize Schaub for not hitting his receivers in stride & for holding the ball too long.

TK, Kubes did bring in Keenum to compete and signed him May 2012. Then gave him a two year deal for $900,000 for 2013/14.

Then he cut him from the team, watched him clear waivers, then signed him to the practice squad. That doesn't sound like "competition" for Yates last season.

Kubiak was satisfied last season for Tj to be one play away from being the Texans' QB.

ObsiWan
08-13-2013, 06:32 PM
Funny thing is, we get YAC. Andre, Jacoby, OD, Arian... they catch the ball, then they turn it up-field. But we'll still criticize Schaub for not hitting his receivers in stride & for holding the ball too long.


The basis of that criticism is this question:
How many MORE yards, first downs, TDs could those guys have attained if Schaub had hit them in stride. When you see AJ have to slow down (if not stop) and wait on a ball instead of catching it in stride - or even better, having to shift gears and "go get it" - you just know that DB wouldn't have caught up to him it that ball had hit him on the money.

...but you knew this. You've likely wondered about it yourself on a play here or there. I have.

paycheck71
08-13-2013, 06:42 PM
The basis of that criticism is this question:
How many MORE yards, first downs, TDs could those guys have attained if Schaub had hit them in stride. When you see AJ have to slow down (if not stop) and wait on a ball instead of catching it in stride - or even better, having to shift gears and "go get it" - you just know that DB wouldn't have caught up to him it that ball had hit him on the money.

...but you knew this. You've likely wondered about it yourself on a play here or there. I have.

It's obvious that Schaub IS able to do that (see Broncos game last year TD pass to Andre, the ball was in the air for 60 yds). We also heard the argument that he underthrows some of them on purpose. So, it could be that (underthrowing on purpose), or maybe he's just not able to do that consistently.

TD to AJ vs Broncos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejiMS7dh_hY)

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 06:47 PM
...but you knew this.

Yes....

Just saying I think it's odd, that is a criticism of Schaub, but YAC is supposed to be an indicator of leading a receiver.

Andre was 3rd in the league (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYardsAfterCatch), just imagine how out of reach he'd be if his QB led him more often. It would be sick. Imagine how many TDs he'd have.

OD was third among TEs


But like you're thinking in the back of your head, that's the difference between a QB helping a receiver & a receiver helping a QB.

76Texan
08-13-2013, 07:57 PM
Yes....

Just saying I think it's odd, that is a criticism of Schaub, but YAC is supposed to be an indicator of leading a receiver.

Andre was 3rd in the league (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYardsAfterCatch), just imagine how out of reach he'd be if his QB led him more often. It would be sick. Imagine how many TDs he'd have.

OD was third among TEs


But like you're thinking in the back of your head, that's the difference between a QB helping a receiver & a receiver helping a QB.

It's one of the factors, that's for sure.
I had disagreed with those who said that Schaub can't throw a guy open.
He just doesn't do it on a consistent basis.
We've seen AJ breaking tackles or dragging defenders into the end zone and we have seen the receivers break up what would have been INT.
Unlike David Anderson, AJ almost always get some extra yards by pure strength.

I'd love to see Schaub improve in that department a little more.

eriadoc
08-13-2013, 08:08 PM
Yes....

Just saying I think it's odd, that is a criticism of Schaub ...

Schaub's a big boy. He can handle it. Are you suggesting that such a critique is unfair, given that he's a 9-yr vet going into his 7th season with the same coach and system? Or are you suggesting that people should refrain from mentioning this quality when watching other QBs, in order avoid hurting Schaubie's feelings? Or maybe you just want us to leave Schaub alone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc).

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 08:19 PM
Yes....

Just saying I think it's odd, that is a criticism of Schaub


Schaub's a big boy. He can handle it. Are you suggesting that such a critique is unfair, given that he's a 9-yr vet going into his 7th season with the same coach and system? Or are you suggesting that people should refrain from mentioning this quality when watching other QBs, in order avoid hurting Schaubie's feelings? Or maybe you just want us to leave Schaub alone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc).

Excuse me. I thought I knew what the word "odd" meant. Maybe I should've looked it up before I used that word. I probably should have used a word like unfair, inaccurate, harsh, or detrimental to his psyche..... wait-a-minute....

Hitting receivers in stride is a hallmark of YAC. That's a very good thing that Keenum hit receivers short and they had more YAC. The WCO is predicated on that very dynamic. Having low YAC means the QB either held the ball to long or didn't lead his receiver properly.

So is Schaub hitting his guys in stride, or is he holding the ball too long & not leading his receiver..

(not you Doc, I'm asking eriadoc)

CloakNNNdagger
08-13-2013, 08:21 PM
After Yates looked terrible supposedly, Kubiak announced that Keenum was a go as 2nd for Miami game.

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 08:23 PM
After Yates looked terrible supposedly, Kubiak announced that Keenum was a go as 2nd for Miami game.

Who said he looked terrible?

DocBar
08-13-2013, 08:32 PM
Man, I love this. We have a few questions at LB, WR and DB but the biggest story of TC is backup QB. This is so much better than years past. It's amazing what a couple of winning seasons and playoff wins do for a team and its fan base.

The only downside I see is that our #1 draft pick can completely suck as a rookie and it won't make much of a difference. Hmmmm...maybe that's not such a downside after all.

:fans:

CloakNNNdagger
08-13-2013, 08:35 PM
Who said he looked terrible?

The report was on 610 by one of the sportscasters who got his info during practice........I believe Ted Johnson. He stated that Yates was wildly missing receivers left and right and overthrowing many.

I should also mention that he reported that Swearinger had an absolutely unbelievable interception against Keenum.

76Texan
08-13-2013, 08:43 PM
The report was on 610 by one of the sportscasters who got his info during practice........I believe Ted Johnson. He stated that Yates was wildly missing receivers left and right and overthrowing many.

Yates had at least 3 balls batted down, 2 of them with him clearly locking on the receiver from the get go.

He missed Graham (a tall target) high on a short throw.

He took a sack at the 4-sec mark instead of throwing the ball away.

His TD pass to Hopkins was actually a hail-Mary.
Hopkins might have gotten away with a PI there to make that play for Yates;
He saved Yates' behind there.
Also, that was against a PS CB who probably won't make the roster unless one or two injuries happen.
Can Yates get away with a starting CB on that play?
He would be lucky it's not an INT; most likely, it's an incomplete pass.

So yeah, I don't think it was a good outing for Yates.

DocBar
08-13-2013, 08:50 PM
So is Schaub hitting his guys in stride, or is he holding the ball too long & not leading his receiver..

(not you Doc, I'm asking eriadoc)All of the above with the last two being more common than the 1st one. :smiliepalm: :chef:

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 08:57 PM
Yates had at least 3 ba batted down, 2 of them with him clearly locking on the receiver from the get go.

He missed Graham (a tall target) high on a short throw.

He took a sack at the 4-sec mark instead of throwing the ball away.

His TD pass to Hopkins was actually a hail-Mary.
Hopkins might have gotten away with a PI there to make that play for Yates;
He saved Yates' behind there.
Also, that was against a PS CB who probably won't make the roster unless one or two injuries happen.
Can Yates get away with a starting CB on that play?
He would be lucky it's not an INT; most likely, it's an incomplete pass.

So yeah, I don't think it was a good outing for Yates.

You need to fastforward to today. CnD was talking about at practice today. From what I heard, both QBs were stinking it up in practice while Schaub was dealing with family issues (Death in Family).

& if that's the way you "analyze" that TD, I'm starting to question if you know what you're looking at when you're looking at it.

DocBar
08-13-2013, 09:06 PM
You need to fastforward to today. CnD was talking about at practice today. From what I heard, both QBs were stinking it up in practice while Schaub was dealing with family issues (Death in Family).

& if that's the way you "analyze" that TD, I'm starting to question if you know what you're looking at when you're looking at it.That's not entirely accurate. CnD posted that Yates looked bad and Keenum had an interception and that it was an "unbelievable" interception at that.

How do you go from Yates was wildly missing receivers left and right and overthrowing many.

I should also mention that he reported that Swearinger had an absolutely unbelievable interception against Keenum. to both QB's were stinking it up? That sounds a lot more like Yates stunk it up and Swearinger made a helluva play to get an INT off of Keenum. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the report, but that's what was posted here.

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 09:11 PM
That's not entirely accurate. CnD posted that Yates looked bad and Keenum had an interception and that it was an "unbelievable" interception at that.

How do you go from to both QB's were stinking it up? That sounds a lot more like Yates stunk it up and Swearinger made a helluva play to get an INT off of Keenum. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the report, but that's what was posted here.

I listen to the radio too. CnD is reporting what he heard, I'm reporting what I heard.

76Texan
08-13-2013, 09:12 PM
You need to fastforward to today. CnD was talking about at practice today. From what I heard, both QBs were stinking it up in practice while Schaub was dealing with family issues (Death in Family).

& if that's the way you "analyze" that TD, I'm starting to question if you know what you're looking at when you're looking at it.

Kubiak lumped both QBs when he answered the question.
He said they both did some things good, some bad.
I guess Yates didn't do as well, or it could be that it was Kubiak's plan to have Keenum going ahead in this game already (and Yates will likely take his turn in the third game.)

Hey, it wasn't just me that said Hopkins might have gotten away with a PI.
At any rate, what is the percentage of the chance that a starting CB miss-times his jump like Bobby Felder the Practice Squad player?
Remember that Hopkins had to go over the top of the CB to get that ball.
It means that both players, if they play their technique right, has a chance at the ball.
That's the definition of a Hail-Mary, isn't it?

TejasTom
08-13-2013, 09:13 PM
I heard that neither looked good yesterday but Yates still looked bad today and Keenum looked good.

DocBar
08-13-2013, 09:19 PM
I listen to the radio too. CnD is reporting what he heard, I'm reporting what I heard.Fair enough. My take on the TD pass from Yates to DH is that DH got away with offensive PI, as I think I know the rule. It's too dang confusing anymore to call that from my recliner. :bubbles:

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 09:21 PM
Hey, it wasn't just me that said Hopkins might have gotten away with a PI.
At any rate, what is the percentage of the chance that a starting CB miss-times his jump like Bobby Felder the Practice Squa player?

Well... if you heard DeAndre's recollection of the catch, he said he knew he had 1 on 1, & their "rules" said if he had one on one on that play, Tj was going to throw it up for him to get it.

That's what Tj did. He wasn't trying to lead DeAndre, he wasn't trying to back shoulder throw it, he wasn't trying to throw the fade. He was just supposed to put enough air under it out in front of DeAndre & Hopkins was supposed to go get it. The only way that could have been a bad throw, was if it was thrown so far out of bounds that DeAndre couldn't possible catch it in bounds.

Even if the CB came down with the ball, Tj did what he was supposed to do.

Another way it could have been a bad throw would have been if there was some kind of disguised coverage & someone rotated back there & Tj didn't see him.

CloakNNNdagger
08-13-2013, 09:22 PM
I heard that neither looked good yesterday but Yates still looked bad today and Keenum looked good.

Yesterday, it was reported that both QBs did not look particularly well.

But the bolded is what was reported on 610. I was simply trying to be fair by pointing out that Case was intercepted, even though it was reported that it was an unbelievable interception by Swearinger.

76Texan
08-13-2013, 09:25 PM
Let's say that it was an intentional pass; the location of the ball wasn't quite there.
The CB actually was in a better position than Hopkins.
Again, what do you think the chances are against a starting CB?

To my understanding, when the CB is ahead of the receiver, the ball is supposed to be thrown short, not over the top.

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 09:27 PM
Fair enough. My take on the TD pass from Yates to DH is that DH got away with offensive PI, as I think I know the rule. It's too dang confusing anymore to call that from my recliner. :bubbles:

PI is like a strike zone. Some umps call'em tight. Some call a wide zone. You never know until you're halfway through the game. Sometimes they let them play, sometimes they don't. The ref didn't call it, or anything like it that game, so I'm going with wasn't a PI.

Also, from the training camp thread.

Houston Texans ‏@HoustonTexans

"They are both doing good things. They are young. What an opportunity for 2 kids. It is really competitive." - Coach Kubiak on Yates/Keenum

James Palmer ‏@JPalmerCSN

"They're both doing some good things and they're both doing some bone head things." - Kubiak on Yates and Keenum over 2 days w/out Schaub.

With all the talk about Yates vs Keenum, it was glaringly apparent after 2 days, this team is in bad shape without Matt Schaub.#texans

& like I said, on the radio there was some talk about how bad Schaub was & the guys (Koch & Kalu.... then Palilo later) was saying how bad off the Texans would be considering what they saw/heard over the last two days.

DocBar
08-13-2013, 09:29 PM
PI is like a strike zone. Some umps call'em tight. Some call a wide zone. You never know until you're halfway through the game. Sometimes they let them play, sometimes they don't. The ref didn't call it, or anything like it that game, so I'm going with wasn't a PI.

Also, from the training camp thread.







& like I said, on the radio there was some talk about how bad Schaub was & the guys (Koch & Kalu.... then Palilo later) was saying how bad off the Texans would be considering what they saw/heard over the last two days.Straight from the Texans. http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Case-Keenum-moving-up/e5bef822-2c04-4616-9809-44ab1ff2b141

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 09:36 PM
Let's say that it was an intentional pass; the location of the ball wasn't quite there.
The CB actually was in a better position than Hopkins.
Again, what do you think the chances are against a starting CB?

To my understanding, when the CB is ahead of the receiver, the ball is supposed to be thrown short, not over the top.

That's one of those no read plays. If it's one on one, Tj tosses it up. His mind is made up before the ball is snapped, doesn't matter where the CB is. He has to trust that Hopkins is going to be there.

DocBar
08-13-2013, 09:42 PM
That's one of those no read plays. If it's one on one, Tj tosses it up. His mind is made up before the ball is snapped, doesn't matter where the CB is. He has to trust that Hopkins is going to be there.That's the essence of that play. I agree that it's the right call. The pass could've been located better but it was the right call.

thunderkyss
08-13-2013, 09:44 PM
Straight from the Texans. http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Case-Keenum-moving-up/e5bef822-2c04-4616-9809-44ab1ff2b141

From that link
“We’ll probably talk about that on Thursday,” Kubiak said. “Like I said, my thought process right now is for Case to go second, so that I can get this thing evened out in the long haul. That’s part of the deal, but whatever happens, they’re going to end up playing right now.”

It has nothing to do with Case "looking" better than Tj. It's more like I said, you can not get a good read on how well Tj knows the play book with that bunch of raggamuffins (I say that in the nicest way) he was out there with. I doubt any of the plays went anywhere close to 80% of what they were supposed to.

The difference between Yates & Keenum is how well they grasp the play-book. When Schaub is in the game, we see 100% of the play book. When Tj came in 2 years ago we saw maybe 40% of the play book.

We're going to the Super Bowl this year. Kubiak wants to make sure he's done everything he can to make sure Case is just as prepared as Tj (100% of the play book) in the event we need him. No one is going to give Kubiak a pass if we don't win the AFC Championship game this year & he knows it.

.

If Case is the back up QB Sept 9, then I'll believe he's got an edge on Tj. Until then, he's trying to avoid a situation like 2011, the first time we should have won a Super Bowl.

DocBar
08-13-2013, 09:48 PM
From that link


It has nothing to do with Case "looking" better than Tj. It's more like I said, you can not get a good read on how well Tj knows the play book with that bunch of raggamuffins (I say that in the nicest way) he was out there with. I doubt any of the plays went anywhere close to 80% of what they were supposed to.

The difference between Yates & Keenum is how well they grasp the play-book. When Schaub is in the game, we see 100% of the play book. When Tj came in 2 years ago we saw maybe 40% of the play book.

We're going to the Super Bowl this year. Kubiak wants to make sure he's done everything he can to make sure Case is just as prepared as Tj (100% of the play book) in the event we need him. No one is going to give Kubiak a pass if we don't win the AFC Championship game this year & he knows it.

.

If Case is the back up QB Sept 9, then I'll believe he's got an edge on Tj. Until then, he's trying to avoid a situation like 2011, the first time we should have won a Super Bowl.I meant that link to show the whole story, not what people heard. He said, she said is the worst way to diagnose a player. "Coach speak" is sooo much better. LOL

GuerillaBlack
08-14-2013, 12:43 AM
It's obvious that Schaub IS able to do that (see Broncos game last year TD pass to Andre, the ball was in the air for 60 yds). We also heard the argument that he underthrows some of them on purpose. So, it could be that (underthrowing on purpose), or maybe he's just not able to do that consistently.

TD to AJ vs Broncos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejiMS7dh_hY)

That's only because of the Denver air. Schaub's long td passes are really more like Tue first one he threw to AJ. Schaub probably has the weakest arm of the three, with Case having the strongest.

dream_team
08-14-2013, 01:58 AM
That's only because of the Denver air. Schaub's long td passes are really more like Tue first one he threw to AJ. Schaub probably has the weakest arm of the three, with Case having the strongest.

I would actually rank arm strength as Yates, Schaub, then Case. In all fairness, I haven't watched that much of Case. But I do remember "weak arm" was one of Case's weaknesses in draft profiles.

Scooter
08-14-2013, 02:33 AM
during last year's preseason there was talk about arm strength regarding keenum's first real practices with the team. what i read was that in camp schaub had the strongest arm by a large margin, while yates was ok and keenum really needed to work on his velocity.

now this doesnt mean schaub can chuck it the furthest, and i'd have keenum as most accurate on the deep stuff, but when it comes to adding extra zip to fit it into a window schaub's still well ahead of the other two as far as i can tell.

you also have to remember that most of schaub's deep throws come from rollouts. it's much more difficult to be accurate and get the same distance when running out (usually left), stopping, and heaving. it'd be easier for him to lead andre more often in rhythm - 7 step drop, step up and throw.

GuerillaBlack
08-14-2013, 09:05 AM
I would actually rank arm strength as Yates, Schaub, then Case. In all fairness, I haven't watched that much of Case. But I do remember "weak arm" was one of Case's weaknesses in draft profiles.

Yeah people should stop going off of the draft profile (when he was injured) and go YouTube some videos of him at UH. That's where this rumor of Case having a weak arm came from and people just ran with it and continue to say it. Anyone who says it never has watched him play. I mean he is the NCAA all time passing leader.He easily has the strongest arm of the three.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaltTgbUxV0

The ball was in the air for 60 yards in that video, without the help of Denver mile high air like Schaub. There are plenty of others too.

speedfreek
08-14-2013, 10:02 AM
I still, to this day, don't understand where the "keenum has no arm strength" argument comes from.

His actual combine measureables showed he had a ball velocity equivalent to Joe Flacco -- a person that everyone considers to be some "mad bomber" throwing down field all of the time.

I could not find any specific numbers for Schaub, but Keenum had a fairly comfortable lead (3 mph) over Yates.

I would suspect that both Keenum and Yates can throw the ball harder than Schaub -- just by the eye test though.

TJ

dream_team
08-14-2013, 12:09 PM
Yeah people should stop going off of the draft profile (when he was injured) and go YouTube some videos of him at UH. That's where this rumor of Case having a weak arm came from and people just ran with it and continue to say it. Anyone who says it never has watched him play. I mean he is the NCAA all time passing leader.He easily has the strongest arm of the three.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaltTgbUxV0

The ball was in the air for 60 yards in that video, without the help of Denver mile high air like Schaub. There are plenty of others too.

Yup, I hear you. Like I said, the only Case I've watched is what I see during preseason, and he hasn't really had that much opportunity to showcase his arm.

At the same time, like what Scooter said, arm strength isn't all just how far can you throw the ball... Schaub's problem on deep balls may more be accuracy instead of arm strength.

legacy_gt
08-14-2013, 12:16 PM
arm strength? there's so much to being a successful qb. yeah that was the knock on keenum at the combine. he was injured.

jamarcus russel throws bullets! what an arm. where'd he go?

NastyNate
08-14-2013, 12:26 PM
I would actually rank arm strength as Yates, Schaub, then Case. In all fairness, I haven't watched that much of Case. But I do remember "weak arm" was one of Case's weaknesses in draft profiles.

:kubepalm:

HJam72
08-14-2013, 12:37 PM
HWSNBN had a LOT of arm-strenth, in spite of an odd throwing motion. Didn't do him much good unless AJ made some acrobatic, juggling dive for one of his bad, but better thrown passes.

That was the best part of watching HWSNBN: watching AJ try to catch that off-target crap, LOL. :)

Brisco_County
08-14-2013, 01:17 PM
Arm strength is not a limitation of any of our three quarterbacks. This conclusion is supported by plenty of evidence available online.

76Texan
08-14-2013, 03:09 PM
Arm strength is not a limitation of any of our three quarterbacks. This conclusion is supported by plenty of evidence available online.

I agree, while none of them has a cannon of an arm.
They had good enough arm to make the necessary throw in this offense.

Joe Montana was never known for his arm strength.

Brady and Brees don't throw that many deep passes either.
In fact, I've already submitted this stat a few times.
The percentage of passes thrown over 20 yards for Schaub, Brady, and Brees are within the vicinity of one another.

badboy
08-14-2013, 03:18 PM
I agree, while none of them has a cannon of an arm.
They had good enough arm to make the necessary throw in this offense.

Joe Montana was never known for his arm strength.

Brady and Brees don't throw that many deep passes either.
In fact, I've already submitted this stat a few times.
The percentage of passes thrown over 20 yards for Schaub, Brady, and Brees are within the vicinity of one another.

Oh, crap! Now what do we talk about?

76Texan
08-14-2013, 03:31 PM
Oh, crap! Now what do we talk about?

My point is that unless you run a vertical attack, which is not what the WCO is about, you don't need your QB to have a cannon of an arm.

40 yard throw is good enough to keep the defense honest.
You want your QB to be able to direct the offense downfield methodically.
Short, safe throws that reduce the number of third and long.
Catch them off-guard here and there if they try to play close to the vest.

b0ng
08-14-2013, 03:44 PM
I agree, while none of them has a cannon of an arm.
They had good enough arm to make the necessary throw in this offense.

Joe Montana was never known for his arm strength.

Brady and Brees don't throw that many deep passes either.
In fact, I've already submitted this stat a few times.
The percentage of passes thrown over 20 yards for Schaub, Brady, and Brees are within the vicinity of one another.

Brady was great at throwing deep balls when he had Moss around. Gronk is pretty good at getting downfield in a hurry but he's not Randy Moss. Here are his passing splits from ESPN from 2007:

BY PASS PLAY CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG LNG TD INT SACK RAT
Pass Thrown Behind Line of Scrimmage 65 77 510 84.4 6.62 42 1 0 0 98.6
Pass Thrown 1-10 yds 236 312 2,071 75.6 6.64 43 23 0 0 117.3
Pass Thrown 11-20 yds 69 120 1,113 57.5 9.28 37 11 3 0 108.8
Pass Thrown 21-30 yds 15 39 490 38.5 12.56 69 7 3 0 93.8
Pass Thrown 31-40 yds 6 13 256 46.2 19.69 63 3 2 0 92.6
Pass Thrown 41+ yds 7 17 366 41.2 21.53 65 5 0 0 128.1

I'm not ready to say that Brady has "lost his deep ball" or anything like that, but the Pats have pretty much ignored WR since 2007 (going by drafts anyway, I can't really think of a great WR that they've signed in FA since then, Danny Amendola I guess? Yikes).

Anyways I just wanted to point that out. I wonder what Brady could do with a 31 year old Andre Johnson. Probably really dirty things.

drs23
08-14-2013, 07:10 PM
Man, I love this. We have a few questions at LB, WR and DB but the biggest story of TC is backup QB. This is so much better than years past. It's amazing what a couple of winning seasons and playoff wins do for a team and its fan base.

The only downside I see is that our #1 draft pick can completely suck as a rookie and it won't make much of a difference. Hmmmm...maybe that's not such a downside after all.

:fans:

Ain't it though? :D

BullBlitz
08-14-2013, 07:14 PM
HWSNBN had a LOT of arm-strenth, in spite of an odd throwing motion. Didn't do him much good unless AJ made some acrobatic, juggling dive for one of his bad, but better thrown passes.

That was the best part of watching HWSNBN: watching AJ try to catch that off-target crap, LOL. :)

Kind of like Hopkins had to go up to catch the TD pass from Yates.

Texans_Chick
08-14-2013, 09:06 PM
FWIW, this is how I see things.

1. When Schaub was out because of death in the family, TJ/Case looked ungood.

2. Today they looked particularly ungood. Like this sort of stuff. :kubepalm:

TJ was ugh yesterday, Case was ugh today. Actually it was an ugh day for the entire offense.

3. Kubiak wants to make it a real competition. By flipping Case and TJ in their reps but giving them similar amounts of reps. But he really wants folks to know not to read too much into it.

So there you go. I am not buying the hype on anyone.

All 3 QBs look better than last year. Which is the bigger story.

None of the backups

Showtime100
08-14-2013, 09:55 PM
FWIW, this is how I see things.

1. When Schaub was out because of death in the family, TJ/Case looked ungood.

2. Today they looked particularly ungood. Like this sort of stuff. :kubepalm:

TJ was ugh yesterday, Case was ugh today. Actually it was an ugh day for the entire offense.

3. Kubiak wants to make it a real competition. By flipping Case and TJ in their reps but giving them similar amounts of reps. But he really wants folks to know not to read too much into it.

So there you go. I am not buying the hype on anyone.

All 3 QBs look better than last year. Which is the bigger story.

None of the backups

Your thoughts on how they did vs Minnesota?

Texans_Chick
08-14-2013, 10:06 PM
Your thoughts on how they did vs Minnesota?

I didn't like how TJ was missing high early. He does that sometimes, and he was lucky not to be intercepted.

They both had plus/minus moments. And clearly, Kubiak is trying to sort out small sample sizes and how much is opponent competition issues.

As it is, it will be an odd test for both. The offensive line is going to have some challenges with Wade Smith out, and working Ben Jones and Quesenberry at LG. Both of those guys have been moving around some, and it is hard on them because the footwork is a bit different.

Showtime100
08-14-2013, 10:20 PM
I didn't like how TJ was missing high early. He does that sometimes, and he was lucky not to be intercepted.

They both had plus/minus moments. And clearly, Kubiak is trying to sort out small sample sizes and how much is opponent competition issues.

As it is, it will be an odd test for both. The offensive line is going to have some challenges with Wade Smith out, and working Ben Jones and Quesenberry at LG. Both of those guys have been moving around some, and it is hard on them because the footwork is a bit different.

Yeah, from what I hear it seems TJ is missing high a lot in practice as well. As you said, he did get on track after that horrible start.

I thought Keenum did about as well as one could have asked, even against 3rd stringers. But at this point, of course, he's still got work to do.

GuerillaBlack
08-15-2013, 10:30 AM
I didn't like how TJ was missing high early. He does that sometimes, and he was lucky not to be intercepted.

They both had plus/minus moments. And clearly, Kubiak is trying to sort out small sample sizes and how much is opponent competition issues.

As it is, it will be an odd test for both. The offensive line is going to have some challenges with Wade Smith out, and working Ben Jones and Quesenberry at LG. Both of those guys have been moving around some, and it is hard on them because the footwork is a bit different.

What about Case?

legacy_gt
08-15-2013, 11:10 AM
FWIW, this is how I see things.

1. When Schaub was out because of death in the family, TJ/Case looked ungood.

2. Today they looked particularly ungood. Like this sort of stuff. :kubepalm:

TJ was ugh yesterday, Case was ugh today. Actually it was an ugh day for the entire offense.

3. Kubiak wants to make it a real competition. By flipping Case and TJ in their reps but giving them similar amounts of reps. But he really wants folks to know not to read too much into it.

So there you go. I am not buying the hype on anyone.

All 3 QBs look better than last year. Which is the bigger story.

None of the backups

so you think case will go back to the practice squad as indicated to your blog?

legacy_gt
08-15-2013, 11:13 AM
I didn't like how TJ was missing high early. He does that sometimes, and he was lucky not to be intercepted.

They both had plus/minus moments. And clearly, Kubiak is trying to sort out small sample sizes and how much is opponent competition issues.


it terms of the first pre-season game per se, you can't deny that there were a lot more plus moments for case.

interesting how balls were getting batted from TJ while the shorter Case, never had that problem.

DX-TEX
08-15-2013, 11:58 AM
so you think case will go back to the practice squad as indicated to your blog?

IMO you put Case on the PS any longer. Some team like the Bucs, Browns or dare I mention NE would snag him as a project?

b0ng
08-15-2013, 12:06 PM
IMO you put Case on the PS any longer. Some team like the Bucs, Browns or dare I mention NE would snag him as a project?

Why? What did he show in the Minnesota game that is going to make some team put him on their 53-man roster?

thunderkyss
08-15-2013, 12:11 PM
IMO you put Case on the PS any longer. Some team like the Bucs, Browns or dare I mention NE would snag him as a project?

Anyone who takes Case off the practice squad would have to be willing to put him on their 53 man roster. If he's been with us through 2012, 2013 OTAs, mini-camp, training camp, & played in our pre season games & we don't think he's earned a roster spot, why would any other team give him one?

76Texan
08-15-2013, 12:19 PM
Anyone who takes Case off the practice squad would have to be willing to put him on their 53 man roster. If he's been with us through 2012, 2013 OTAs, mini-camp, training camp, & played in our pre season games & we don't think he's earned a roster spot, why would any other team give him one?

It happened before.
At least one team did pick up a QB another team tried to stash on the PS.

I noted it in one of the threads somewhere.

It can happen and it did happen.

infantrycak
08-15-2013, 12:19 PM
Anyone who takes Case off the practice squad would have to be willing to put him on their 53 man roster. If he's been with us through 2012, 2013 OTAs, mini-camp, training camp, & played in our pre season games & we don't think he's earned a roster spot, why would any other team give him one?

That logic applies to every player who was every taken off a practice squad.

DX-TEX
08-15-2013, 12:21 PM
Anyone who takes Case off the practice squad would have to be willing to put him on their 53 man roster. If he's been with us through 2012, 2013 OTAs, mini-camp, training camp, & played in our pre season games & we don't think he's earned a roster spot, why would any other team give him one?

Let me say first: I have been open in my "not impressed" opinion of Case. He has shown enough so far that some team would do it especially as the season progresses and the teams that have injuries at QB or whose QBs are not very good would take the chance.

I mention NE because Mallet has been terrible this whole TC and the other option is Tebow (snicker). After their scare yesterday it would be the typical "Im the smartest man in the league!" move by Belicheck.

What would teams like the Jags, Browns, Jets, Rams, Raiders have to lose?

legacy_gt
08-15-2013, 12:27 PM
Let me say first: I have been open in my "not impressed" opinion of Case. He has shown enough so far that some team would do it especially as the season progresses and the teams that have injuries at QB or whose QBs are not very good would take the chance.

I mention NE because Mallet has been terrible this whole TC and the other option is Tebow (snicker). After their scare yesterday it would be the typical "Im the smartest man in the league!" move by Belicheck.

What would teams like the Jags, Browns, Jets, Rams, Raiders have to lose?

I agree that Case would be picked up if he was placed in the PS. And also remember you saying that Case has no chance in playing in the nfl too.

DX-TEX
08-15-2013, 12:31 PM
I agree that Case would be picked up if he was placed in the PS. And also remember you saying that Case has no chance in playing in the nfl too.

He will never be a starter but someone would take the chance. League is always looking for QB's. Look at Jamrcus Russel.

Carr Bombed
08-15-2013, 12:33 PM
Anyone who takes Case off the practice squad would have to be willing to put him on their 53 man roster. If he's been with us through 2012, 2013 OTAs, mini-camp, training camp, & played in our pre season games & we don't think he's earned a roster spot, why would any other team give him one?

Easy answer.. because there is absolutely horrible QB play in this league, just for starters.. teams like OAK, Jax, and NY would look to add to their QB position. Just because one team would place a player on "their PS" doesn't mean another team wouldn't add the same player to their 53 man roster.. all 32 teams don't have the same level of talent.

legacy_gt
08-15-2013, 12:36 PM
He will never be a starter but someone would take the chance. League is always looking for QB's. Look at Jamrcus Russel.

I think it's best to say and attainable that most on here would want Case to be a good solid NFL backup for the Texans regardless if people want to speculate if he'll ever start.

At this point, it's very early.

thunderkyss
08-15-2013, 01:25 PM
That logic applies to every player who was every taken off a practice squad.

DX-Tex said as a project...

If someone thought Case can help them, like someone who would take an OLman or a DLman, or a LB, RB, or CB sure. But as a QB project, I doubt it.

Rey
08-15-2013, 01:28 PM
I'm not sure if Case would be picked up or not. I don't know what this means in the grand scheme if things, but I have no doubt in my mind that if it was possible to get Yates on practice squad (I know it's not possible, I said IF) he wouldn't even clear waivers.

I'm not sure about Case. I honestly just don't know. I could see him going unclaimed and I could see some team picking him up to take a flyer...

Rey
08-15-2013, 01:36 PM
DX-Tex said as a project...

If someone thought Case can help them, like someone who would take an OLman or a DLman, or a LB, RB, or CB sure. But as a QB project, I doubt it.

Remember how bad we were a few years ago? Remember we took that project QB from the cardinals practice squad?

Everybody isn't as deep as we are. So while it might be tough for us to decide on whether to carry 2 FB's, or who the 5th WR should be and whether or not we can stash guys in IR, some other teams don't have those issues. They aren't going to have issues cutting down their roster and will be constantly moving and shuffling fringe guys all year. Teams like that aren't going to stress about cutting guys that only made their team because they couldn't find anyone better.

Some team could cut a fourth string RB or a 5th string LB or 5th safety, pick case up and then get their own scrub back on practice squad. Or just let him be a free agent and give him a call if they need him. Kind of like we did with Casey Studdard.

Texans_Chick
08-15-2013, 01:51 PM
so you think case will go back to the practice squad as indicated to your blog?

He is able to. TJ isn't.

Depends on injuries on other parts of the team, who they need to carry on 53 man roster. Some teams go with 2 QBs, some with 3. Rick Smith talked about it the other day, the studies they've done on 2 versus 3 QBs, and injury. Texans carried Beck for a while until that became a luxury they couldn't afford due to injuries to other parts of the roster.

Case is perfect for practice squad. If I'm a GM of some other team, I don't want to active roster some short guy without plus factor athleticism who doesn't know my system and hasn't been in my camp. Even Tebow has higher value in showing read option looks for practice/ playing special teams/ short yardage runs.

He might be worth swiping by an opposing team if you were doing it for the purposes of pumping him for information and then letting him go afterwards. But a team needs to have roster space for that.

His highest benefit to the Texans right now is that he knows the system. But if he got swiped off the psquad, there's any number of slappies the Texans could get to learn up the offense like they did in 2011. Not ideal, but neither is carrying another clipboard holder on the active roster. There's tradeoffs with any decision.

I like Case Keenum's story and like him personally but there's nothing in camp that makes me think he's The Future of the Texans or so much better than any number of randoms who could run this offense.

For him to have the best chance, he is going to have to kill in the 2nd and 4th preseason games. Just crush them. Show something that hasn't been seen in camp. Because despite glowing reports by some, he's not a transcendent QB in practice. Does some nice things, does some bonehead things, is much better than last year.

Texans_Chick
08-15-2013, 01:57 PM
Some team could cut a fourth string RB or a 5th string LB or 5th safety, pick case up and then get their own scrub back on practice squad. Or just let him be a free agent and give him a call if they need him. Kind of like we did with Casey Studdard.

Actually, Case Keenum reminds me of a Casey Studdard sort of guy. Texas guy with plus character and football want to, but less than ideal NFL measurables which make him a questionable pick up for other teams. QB's get swiped if teams think they are promising guys to develop.

Last year, I predicted p-squad for Keenum, and some media folks believed that he would just be released. He was terrible last year.

This year he is better. But not OMG we have to keep him on the regular roster or we are doomed better.

b0ng
08-15-2013, 02:05 PM
Most of you guys who think Case would get scooped up are the same people who thought Case would get scooped up last year if we put him on our PS (B-b-b-b-b-but he threw for so many yards in NCAA!). Case Keenum is a short and old QB (For being in only his second year) who played in what is thought of nationally as a gimmicky Houston scheme in college.

So now that he's spent a year on a PS, here come the "You have to put him on the roster or he'll be gone!" crowd again and it sounds just as dumb now as it does then. The bit that Carr Bombed said about NY probably picking him (I'm assuming the Jets here) is doubly retarded and pretty much throws out the window that Rex Ryan has a Mark Sanchez fetish that is both unexplainable and undeniable. Seriously, a guy who has this as a tattoo:

http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Rex-Ryan-Tattoo2.jpg

Is going to start picking up practice squad QB's so that he can find a replacement. While simultaneously talking down the 2nd round QB his team picked.

CloakNNNdagger
08-15-2013, 02:48 PM
Kubiak:

(on what he wants to see out of QB Case Keenum) “I just think we continue. Obviously, he’s got another game plan that came at him this week. He’s got more to digest. Can he go handle that with the group like he did last week? He’s probably going to play against a little bit different level of competition from the standpoint of when he goes into the football game this week against Miami. You’re just looking for him to progress like any other player.”

Thorn
08-15-2013, 03:08 PM
Glad to see Case will get a chance against Miami's 2s. I think a lot of questions will be answered, depending of course how he does.

And since TJ is going against the 3s, he should supposedly kick their butts. It will be interesting to see them both.

Yeah, I'm a big Case Keenum fan boy, don't mistake that for a second. But if he isn't going to make it, if he doesn't have what it takes, well then say good bye Case and get another QB. Schaub needs to be replaced sooner or later anyway.

Carr Bombed
08-15-2013, 03:14 PM
Most of you guys who think Case would get scooped up are the same people who thought Case would get scooped up last year if we put him on our PS (B-b-b-b-b-but he threw for so many yards in NCAA!). Case Keenum is a short and old QB (For being in only his second year) who played in what is thought of nationally as a gimmicky Houston scheme in college.

So now that he's spent a year on a PS, here come the "You have to put him on the roster or he'll be gone!" crowd again and it sounds just as dumb now as it does then. The bit that Carr Bombed said about NY probably picking him (I'm assuming the Jets here) is doubly retarded and pretty much throws out the window that Rex Ryan has a Mark Sanchez fetish that is both unexplainable and undeniable. Seriously, a guy who has this as a tattoo:

http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Rex-Ryan-Tattoo2.jpg

Is going to start picking up practice squad QB's so that he can find a replacement. While simultaneously talking down the 2nd round QB his team picked.

No what's "doubly retarded" is your asinine assuptions (and you know what they say about assuming). Please show me where in the hell I ever said the Jets would pick up Case to replace Sanchez? Ill save you time.. it wasn't ever mentioned. Some poster asked why another team would sign him.. I said, because there are teams that have bad QB play/depth and then listed examples. No where did I ever imply that Case would be picked up to replace another team's starter or even their backup. And excuse me for not putting it past a coach who actually traded a draft pick for a QB who can't even throw. :rolleyes:

76Texan
08-15-2013, 03:34 PM
b0ng,

I was not one of those who thought Keenum wouldn't clear waiver last year.
The way Kubiak hid him by not giving him many opportunities as well as putting Beck ahead of him was telling.
Also, Keenum had to learn the playbook as well as working on his footwork from under center.

The other three QBs had several legs up on him since all of them were already very familiar with the WCO.

This year is a different story, and it is still early to call anything.
But if Keenum continues to show like he did against the Vikings, the odds are good, IMO, that another team will be interested in him.

Another example of an UDFA being picked up by another is John Parker Wilson.
When the Falcons cut him during pre-season2012, the Jags signed him.

Earlier this year, when the Jags cut him, the Steelers took him the next day.

So yeah, there have been UDFA QBs claimed by other teams.

I've noted two so far (and I wasn't even looking, just kinda stumbled on it.)
I'm sure if I start to look, I will find many more.
I'm quite confident of that, so would like to propose a bet? LOL!

thunderkyss
08-15-2013, 03:41 PM
Kubiak:
(on what he wants to see out of QB Case Keenum) “I just think we continue. Obviously, he’s got another game plan that came at him this week. He’s got more to digest. Can he go handle that with the group like he did last week? He’s probably going to play against a little bit different level of competition from the standpoint of when he goes into the football game this week against Miami. You’re just looking for him to progress like any other player.”

Would it be safe to infer Tj was asked to do "more" last week than Keenum was?


In all honesty, if I were a HC, completions & first downs & TDs are all nice, but in the preseason I want to know can he or can't he run my offense. In the regular season I hope to not have him out there with my 2,3,4 receivers, 3 LG, 5 RT, 4 TE....

In the film room it's going to be, "This is what I saw, this would have been the right thing to do. But you decided to do that.... explain."

He can say, "But coach, I threw a TD" or "We kept the chains moving" & I'd cut him.....

NCTexan
08-15-2013, 03:50 PM
In the film room it's going to be, "This is what I saw, this would have been the right thing to do. But you decided to do that.... explain."

He can say, "But coach, I threw a TD" or "We kept the chains moving" & I'd cut him.....

I think this is exactly right. Not saying Case isn't doing the right things, but I think this is probably more how it goes behind the scenes.

The Pencil Neck
08-15-2013, 03:58 PM
Would it be safe to infer Tj was asked to do "more" last week than Keenum was?


In all honesty, if I were a HC, completions & first downs & TDs are all nice, but in the preseason I want to know can he or can't he run my offense. In the regular season I hope to not have him out there with my 2,3,4 receivers, 3 LG, 5 RT, 4 TE....

In the film room it's going to be, "This is what I saw, this would have been the right thing to do. But you decided to do that.... explain."

He can say, "But coach, I threw a TD" or "We kept the chains moving" & I'd cut him.....

Yep. I think you're pretty dead on about that.

When some of us fans hear about how well Case did going off-schedule, it's like... Yeah! That's what we need! A guy who performs when the play breaks down!

But that's probably NOT what Kubiak is saying at all. The play probably went off schedule because Case didn't do what Kubiak wanted him to do. That's not a good thing to be doing if you want to stay on the team, regardless of how successful you happened to be on those plays.

NCTexan
08-15-2013, 04:01 PM
Yep. I think you're pretty dead on about that.

When some of us fans hear about how well Case did going off-schedule, it's like... Yeah! That's what we need! A guy who performs when the play breaks down!

But that's probably NOT what Kubiak is saying at all. The play probably went off schedule because Case didn't do what Kubiak wanted him to do. That's not a good thing to be doing if you want to stay on the team, regardless of how successful you happened to be on those plays.

I think that's been thunderkyss's point this entire thread, and a lot of people seem to disagree with him about that.

(at least that's how I've read what he's saying)

The Pencil Neck
08-15-2013, 04:02 PM
I think that's been thunderkyss's point this entire thread, and a lot of people seem to disagree with him about that.

(at least that's how I've read what he's saying)

ThunderKyss had a point?

:swatter:



:kitten:

thunderkyss
08-15-2013, 04:22 PM
I think this is exactly right. Not saying Case isn't doing the right things, but I think this is probably more how it goes behind the scenes.


But that's probably NOT what Kubiak is saying at all. The play probably went off schedule because Case didn't do what Kubiak wanted him to do. That's not a good thing to be doing if you want to stay on the team, regardless of how successful you happened to be on those plays.

I agree with both of you.

Case is going to have to answer those questions to Kubiak's liking.... chances are he did & that's what earned him a shot with the 2nd team.

At the same time, I'm sure Kubiak liked what he saw on all the off-scheduled stuff. He expected that Case would have to go off schedule, just like he'll expect Tj to go off schedule (& if McGee gets field time), & see what happens.

Schaub probably wouldn't have performed as well as Case did with the 3s & 4s.... but Schaub is higher on the depth chart.

76Texan
08-15-2013, 04:37 PM
b0ng,

I was not one of those who thought Keenum wouldn't clear waiver last year.
The way Kubiak hid him by not giving him many opportunities as well as putting Beck ahead of him was telling.
Also, Keenum had to learn the playbook as well as working on his footwork from under center.

The other three QBs had several legs up on him since all of them were already very familiar with the WCO.

This year is a different story, and it is still early to call anything.
But if Keenum continues to show like he did against the Vikings, the odds are good, IMO, that another team will be interested in him.

Another example of an UDFA being picked up by another is John Parker Wilson.
When the Falcons cut him during pre-season2012, the Jags signed him.

Earlier this year, when the Jags cut him, the Steelers took him the next day.

So yeah, there have been UDFA QBs claimed by other teams.

I've noted two so far (and I wasn't even looking, just kinda stumbled on it.)
I'm sure if I start to look, I will find many more.
I'm quite confident of that, so would like to propose a bet? LOL!
Two more UDFA QBs picked up by another team: Alex Tanney and Aaron Corp.

Kellen Moore, a shorter and smaller QB, with a much weaker arm than Keenum (just watch some of his college game tapes and you will see what I mean - he also played in a spread system), on the other hand, looks like the #3 QB for the Rams this year.
Another UDFA QB, Austin Davis, has been promoting to #2 (he played in CUSA.)

The Falcons made UDFA Dominique Davis a third stringer last year.

Those were just some names I found for last year alone.
So yeah, UDFA QBs make NFL roster more often than people think.

Rey
08-15-2013, 04:55 PM
Yep. I think you're pretty dead on about that.

When some of us fans hear about how well Case did going off-schedule, it's like... Yeah! That's what we need! A guy who performs when the play breaks down!

But that's probably NOT what Kubiak is saying at all. The play probably went off schedule because Case didn't do what Kubiak wanted him to do. That's not a good thing to be doing if you want to stay on the team, regardless of how successful you happened to be on those plays.

Are you just coming up with a scenario or are you saying this is probably happening in real life?

Because if you guys are saying this is likely what's really happening, I couldn't disagree more.

Kubiak isn't going to elevate a guy to run with a higher group if he's not doing things that he likes. He's not going to give case a shot with the two's if he can't even do the right thing with the threes. You earn opportunities like this.

Btw, not all coaches are like how you describe. Plenty of coaches say if you make a mistake make it going 100 mph. Meaning, don't let a mistake during a play affect your effort.
If you have a guy making a mental error you could easily have kubiak chewing him out but praising him for making something out of it.

But it's a big assumption anyways that he's making a bunch of mistakes.

ArlingtonTexan
08-15-2013, 04:56 PM
I bothered to look up Aaron Corp because his name sounded familiar (the swim through Dallas was it) ...probably not a good example of an UDFA "making it"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Corp

76Texan
08-15-2013, 05:03 PM
I bothered to look up Aaron Corp because his name sounded familiar (the swim through Dallas was it) ...probably not a good example of an UDFA "making it"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Corp

My bad, there, LOL!

Any rate, if Corp doesn't make the Dolphins final roster, Pat Devlin will; he's another UDFA.

ArlingtonTexan
08-15-2013, 05:14 PM
since 1990 or so the two UDFA QBs to truly make it have been Kurt Warner and Tony Romo (want to say there is 3rd legitimate starting guy I am missing)

And yes there are a handful of UDFA who make the final 53 every year, but most of those

1) Never take a meaningful snap
2) start as in case of emergency break glass
3) and prove to not be significant in the NFL

If Case Keenum winds up as a billy Volek (long term career back-up) or Ryan Fitzpatrick (oops actually drafted in the 7th) then he personally has bet the odds and should be applauded.

76Texan
08-15-2013, 05:25 PM
since 1990 or so the two UDFA QBs to truly make it have been Kurt Warner and Tony Romo (want to say there is 3rd legitimate starting guy I am missing)

And yes there are a handful of UDFA who make the final 53 every year, but most of those

1) Never take a meaningful snap
2) start as in case of emergency break glass
3) and prove to not be significant in the NFL

If Case Keenum winds up as a billy Volek (long term career back-up) or Ryan Fitzpatrick (oops actually drafted in the 7th) then he personally has bet the odds and should be applauded.
Jake Delhome, Jeff Garcia are two names I can think of.

The Pencil Neck
08-15-2013, 05:25 PM
Are you just coming up with a scenario or are you saying this is probably happening in real life?

Because if you guys are saying this is likely what's really happening, I couldn't disagree more.

Kubiak isn't going to elevate a guy to run with a higher group if he's not doing things that he likes. He's not going to give case a shot with the two's if he can't even do the right thing with the threes. You earn opportunities like this.

Btw, not all coaches are like how you describe. Plenty of coaches say if you make a mistake make it going 100 mph. Meaning, don't let a mistake during a play affect your effort.
If you have a guy making a mental error you could easily have kubiak chewing him out but praising him for making something out of it.

But it's a big assumption anyways that he's making a bunch of mistakes.

All I'm saying is that we don't know what's being said in that QB room.

The plays that some of us are getting all excited about where he went off schedule might not be plays that Kubiak is happy about. That doesn't mean that Kubiak isn't happy with some other plays.

We don't know.

Case getting a chance to play with the 2's might be more an indication of Kubiak's displeasure with TJs development than an indication that he thinks Case is all that and a bag of chips. It might be that Kubiak is trying to get someone to step up. Lord knows, Kubiak has been on both of them for not playing that great this week in practice.

ArlingtonTexan
08-15-2013, 05:37 PM
Jake Delhome, Jeff Garcia are two names I can think of.

Delhomme works..Garcia was weird in that he sent 3 or 4 years in Canada before signing. think that is still fine since it is not like there are a ton other "Canadian" QBs (warren Moon of course) who have come back to the US and made an impact.

thunderkyss
08-15-2013, 05:49 PM
Those were just some names I found for last year alone.
So yeah, UDFA QBs make NFL roster more often than people think.

Was that the question? I wouldn't have thought anyone doubted UDFA QBs would make NFL rosters.

thunderkyss
08-15-2013, 06:08 PM
The plays that some of us are getting all excited about where he went off schedule might not be plays that Kubiak is happy about. That doesn't mean that Kubiak isn't happy with some other plays.

We don't know.


I think it's even more grayer than that.

It could be the very same play. Kubiak would ask Case to describe his thought process, if Case recite back the keys he's supposed to look at & the reads were right, that's a point. If those reads said chuck it & run, or "Yer on yer own." & Case made something happen, that's another point.

If his answer reveals he didn't get to his second read because protection in front of him, or to his left, or whatever broke down...... & he made something happen, that's a point.

However, if Kubiak believes he should have gotten to his 3rd read, but decided to flush out to his left... made a play, moved the chains, or scored..

no point.

He's got to get so many points before Kubiak says he earned a run with the 2nd unit.

I think it's obvious he did enough right things that Kubiak was already talking about putting him in with the second team when the game was over.

Where I think the problem is, is that many are saying Tj looked terrible & Case looked better... & that's not an apples to apples comparison. Tj didn't look terrible. He wasn't perfect, but very few players turn in one perfect game in there whole career.

Tj looked like Schaub. Far as I can tell, Schaub's the bar.

If I were Kubiak, Case would have to look as competent as Schaub does running this offense to make the team, or at least reasonably close. .... better would be good, I wouldn't have a problem with better.


It has nothing to do with being better or worse than Tj. If Case Keenum was playing for the Philadelphia Eagles, there's no doubt in my mind that Kubiak would go into the season with Tj Yates as our back up QB... most likely wouldn't have brought anyone in to compete with him.

Rey
08-15-2013, 06:16 PM
You guys are real live creating your own narratives.

That's cool. I can dig it.

CloakNNNdagger
08-15-2013, 06:35 PM
Are you just coming up with a scenario or are you saying this is probably happening in real life?

Because if you guys are saying this is likely what's really happening, I couldn't disagree more.

Kubiak isn't going to elevate a guy to run with a higher group if he's not doing things that he likes. He's not going to give case a shot with the two's if he can't even do the right thing with the threes. You earn opportunities like this.

Btw, not all coaches are like how you describe. Plenty of coaches say if you make a mistake make it going 100 mph. Meaning, don't let a mistake during a play affect your effort.
If you have a guy making a mental error you could easily have kubiak chewing him out but praising him for making something out of it.

But it's a big assumption anyways that he's making a bunch of mistakes.

You don't get a raise if your boss thinks you're a screw up!

speedfreek
08-15-2013, 06:43 PM
To be honest, the biggest problem I think Keenum will have
is that he is not a good practice-time player.

Never has been.

Under Art Briles he couldn't separate himself from a guy
named Blake Joseph in practice in 2007. Joseph later
transferred to a D1-AA school and was unremarkable.

Under Sumlin he had to split time during practice with
multiple QB's without any distinction.

It wasn't until he got on the field, and got into the action
that his coaches were able to see the talent he had.

I don't think Gary operates that way. I think Gary needs
a guy to look like a pro-bowler in practice before he
trusts him in game situations.

That could be Keenum's achilles heel. And if TJ puts on
a good practice or two in a row it could spell more bench time
for Keenum.

The only fear that I have is that Gary will be silly enough
to put him on the practice squad. My nightmare is to have
Case running a touchdown back against the Texans for
another team (a la Vince Young with the titans)

TJ

Lucky
08-15-2013, 07:27 PM
Case is perfect for practice squad.
Unless he beats out TJ for the #2 spot. Because it doesn't matter if Keenum has practice squad eligibility and Yates doesn't if Keenum is the better player. The question then would be, do you keep TJ on the 53?

I don't know if Keenum has to "kill" or "crush" to make the roster (though 3 scoring drives in 4 attempts probably meets that definition). He just has to beat out Yates.

infantrycak
08-15-2013, 07:43 PM
You guys are real live creating your own narratives.

That's cool. I can dig it.

It has become comedy at this point.

76Texan
08-15-2013, 07:44 PM
Yep. I think you're pretty dead on about that.

When some of us fans hear about how well Case did going off-schedule, it's like... Yeah! That's what we need! A guy who performs when the play breaks down!

But that's probably NOT what Kubiak is saying at all. The play probably went off schedule because Case didn't do what Kubiak wanted him to do. That's not a good thing to be doing if you want to stay on the team, regardless of how successful you happened to be on those plays.

I went back and looked at all the passing plays carefully, and I must say I was "extremely" impressed with the way Keenum operated.

Look at his eyes before the snap.
Look at his eyes all through the plays.
The guy didn't show the safeties, the LBs, the CBs, the D-linemen a thing.
They had no idea where he was going to go with the ball (unless the receiver is abosutelt open and he had a clear passing lane.)

Look at the off-schede play with 5:48 to go in the third.
He went through all five reads in less than 3 secs and saw nothing anywhere.
Maehl was covered.
He wanted Jean, but knew that the LB was going to pop him in the middle of the field as the safety comes up, so he immediately looked to his right.
Neither TE was open, and the LB was eying his RB like a lion ready to pound.
So he took off and evaded to the outside.
As soon as he got past the grab of the D-lineman, he turned his eyes immediately upfield.
He didn't settle for the RB, but went further downfield back to Jean for the first down.
That was at least seven reads in one play.
I am sure Kubiak was pleased.

With Schaub and Yates, IMO, the most likely that would have happened was a pass on the first read to Jean, who would be popped right away across the middle by the LB - not a pretty sight.

Or maybe Schaub would look to the left, saw the LB keying the RB, and threw the ball out of bound.

Or maybe Yates will throw the ball to the RB for no gain, maybe even a loss as the LB jumps on him.

Are you guys seeing this or am I making this all up?

76Texan
08-15-2013, 07:55 PM
Delhomme works..Garcia was weird in that he sent 3 or 4 years in Canada before signing. think that is still fine since it is not like there are a ton other "Canadian" QBs (warren Moon of course) who have come back to the US and made an impact.

John Kitna is another guy.
He wend undrafted in 1996, but ended up starting 124 games.
His teams weren't very good, but he managed to win the division once (in 99) and garnered Come Back Player of the Year in 2003.

Not too shabby, I don't think.

speedfreek
08-15-2013, 07:56 PM
The one thing that always amazed me about Keenum was his
ability to rapidly find, and move into a position to throw to the
open man.

In 2009 Keenum had 3 receivers on the team that had 1,000
yard receiving seasons and all were on the biletnikoff watch list.

He even made use of an H-back/tight end when one was available
(IE: 2009)

The guy had no "go to guy", and in 2010 after Keenum was
injured one of the 3 receivers I referred to left the team because
he felt he wasn't being used correctly (and had bad teammate
issues too..)

One gripe I have about Schaub is (from my perspective) he just
keeps locking in on one guy. Granted AJ and OD are great, yes,
but I don't feel that Matt spreads the ball around enough.

It's going to be really interesting to see how many targets guys
like Hopkins, Posey, et. al. actually get this year.

TJ


I went back and looked at all the passing plays carefully, and I must say I was "extremely" impressed with the way Keenum operated.

Look at his eyes before the snap.
Look at his eyes all through the plays.
The guy didn't show the safeties, the LBs, the CBs, the D-linemen a thing.
They had no idea where he was going to go with the ball (unless the receiver is abosutelt open and he had a clear passing lane.)

Look at the off-schede play with 5:48 to go in the third.
He went through all five reads in less than 3 secs and saw nothing anywhere.
Maehl was covered.
He wanted Jean, but knew that the LB was going to pop him in the middle of the field as the safety comes up, so he immediately looked to his right.
Neither TE was open, and the LB was eying his RB like a lion ready to pound.
So he took off and evaded to the outside.
As soon as he got past the grab of the D-lineman, he turned his eyes immediately upfield.
He didn't settle for the RB, but went further downfield back to Jean for the first down.
That was at least seven reads in one play.
I am sure Kubiak was pleased.

With Schaub and Yates, IMO, the most likely that would have happened was a pass on the first read to Jean, who would be popped right away across the middle by the LB - not a pretty sight.

Or maybe Schaub would look to the left, saw the LB keying the RB, and threw the ball out of bound.

Or maybe Yates will throw the ball to the RB for no gain, maybe even a loss as the LB jumps on him.

Are you guys seeing this or am I making this all up?

Thorn
08-15-2013, 09:30 PM
Looking in my crystal ball I see Case Keenum taking over the starting duties from Schaub, and then bringing home six Super Bowl trophies before we trade him off to Oakland for their next five 1st round picks. He then proceeds to bring Oakland four more Super Bowls before retiring to a life in California politics. He is elected governor and creates a scientific council that solves the riddle of earthquake prediction. After two terms of President of the US in which he not only balances the budget, creates a huge surplus while putting an additional 20 billion people on welfare and merging the US with Russia monopolizing the world’s oil and mineral markets, he creates the World Science Emporium which discovers the grand unified theory of physics and the secrets of the universe. He leaves on a starship and we never see him again after that. It is said he started a new alien NFL in the Ursa Major star system and becomes their god.

None of this happens if he goes to the practice squad and gets snatched up by Cleveland where he will end up a used car salesman. This is why I get so pissed off when you people keep talking about putting him on the practice squad.

speedfreek
08-15-2013, 09:47 PM
Looking in my crystal ball I see Case Keenum taking over the starting duties from Schaub, and then bringing home six Super Bowl trophies before we trade him off to Oakland for their next five 1st round picks. He then proceeds to bring Oakland four more Super Bowls before retiring to a life in California politics. He is elected governor and creates a scientific council that solves the riddle of earthquake prediction. After two terms of President of the US in which he not only balances the budget, creates a huge surplus while putting an additional 20 billion people on welfare and merging the US with Russia monopolizing the world’s oil and mineral markets, he creates the World Science Emporium which discovers the grand unified theory of physics and the secrets of the universe. He leaves on a starship and we never see him again after that. It is said he started a new alien NFL in the Ursa Major star system and becomes their god.

None of this happens if he goes to the practice squad and gets snatched up by Cleveland where he will end up a used car salesman. This is why I get so pissed off when you people keep talking about putting him on the practice squad.

You left out the part about the discovery of a pill that makes obese
people slim like anorexic fashion models.

And, if he goes to the practice squad he ends up being hired as an
assitant to help Rex Ryan locate foot models for NY Jet cleats..

TJ

drs23
08-15-2013, 10:08 PM
Looking in my crystal ball I see Case Keenum taking over the starting duties from Schaub, and then bringing home six Super Bowl trophies before we trade him off to Oakland for their next five 1st round picks. He then proceeds to bring Oakland four more Super Bowls before retiring to a life in California politics. He is elected governor and creates a scientific council that solves the riddle of earthquake prediction. After two terms of President of the US in which he not only balances the budget, creates a huge surplus while putting an additional 20 billion people on welfare and merging the US with Russia monopolizing the world’s oil and mineral markets, he creates the World Science Emporium which discovers the grand unified theory of physics and the secrets of the universe. He leaves on a starship and we never see him again after that. It is said he started a new alien NFL in the Ursa Major star system and becomes their god.

None of this happens if he goes to the practice squad and gets snatched up by Cleveland where he will end up a used car salesman. This is why I get so pissed off when you people keep talking about putting him on the practice squad.

Absolutely hilarious.

REP TO YOU SIR!

Vance87
08-15-2013, 11:53 PM
Looking in my crystal ball I see Case Keenum taking over the starting duties from Schaub, and then bringing home six Super Bowl trophies before we trade him off to Oakland for their next five 1st round picks. He then proceeds to bring Oakland four more Super Bowls before retiring to a life in California politics. He is elected governor and creates a scientific council that solves the riddle of earthquake prediction. After two terms of President of the US in which he not only balances the budget, creates a huge surplus while putting an additional 20 billion people on welfare and merging the US with Russia monopolizing the world’s oil and mineral markets, he creates the World Science Emporium which discovers the grand unified theory of physics and the secrets of the universe. He leaves on a starship and we never see him again after that. It is said he started a new alien NFL in the Ursa Major star system and becomes their god.

None of this happens if he goes to the practice squad and gets snatched up by Cleveland where he will end up a used car salesman. This is why I get so pissed off when you people keep talking about putting him on the practice squad.

Wow, I've never seen such a baseless, illusory prediction in all my time. No way are we merging with Russia.

DocBar
08-16-2013, 12:00 AM
Wow, I've never seen such a baseless, illusory prediction in all my time. No way are we merging with Russia.I agree. We will most likely merge with China, unless Obama gets a 3rd term. In that case, we will be merging with Islam. Whatever that means. It can't be good and I don't think there's been a suicide bomber proof suit built yet. Just say your Hail Obama's, watch Duck Dynasty and try your best to refrain from saying "using the whole fist, Doc? Swiiing looow, sweet chariooot". How many get that movie reference?

EllisUnit
08-16-2013, 12:04 AM
I agree. We will most likely merge with China, unless Obama gets a 3rd term. In that case, we will be merging with Islam. Whatever that means. It can't be good and I don't think there's been a suicide bomber proof suit built yet. Just say your Hail Obama's, watch Duck Dynasty and try your best to refrain from saying "using the whole fist, Doc? Swiiing looow, sweet chariooot". How many get that movie reference?

we owe so much $$$ to china it wouldnt take much. Hell the government couldnt afford a real chinese fortune cookie at this point

DocBar
08-16-2013, 12:07 AM
we owe so much $$$ to china it wouldnt take much. Hell the government couldnt afford a real chinese fortune cookie at this pointBut you didn't recognize the movie reference. You fail, little one. LOL :kitten:

EllisUnit
08-16-2013, 12:35 AM
But you didn't recognize the movie reference. You fail, little one. LOL :kitten:

wouldnt be the first time i failed :) nor the last. And i am a huge movie buff, watch every damn movie that comes out. Maybe mom was right, and the drugs from years ago have affected me :chickendance:

DocBar
08-16-2013, 12:38 AM
wouldnt be the first time i failed :) nor the last. And i am a huge movie buff, watch every damn movie that comes out. Maybe mom was right, and the drugs from years ago have affected me :chickendance:Dude!!!! Think mid 80's. Great movie. IMHO.

EllisUnit
08-16-2013, 12:44 AM
Dude!!!! Think mid 80's. Great movie. IMHO.

i was just learning to walk by that time haha, still crapping my pampers :kitten:

but once u tell me the name i might watch it.

Vance87
08-16-2013, 01:18 AM
I agree. We will most likely merge with China, unless Obama gets a 3rd term. In that case, we will be merging with Islam. Whatever that means. It can't be good and I don't think there's been a suicide bomber proof suit built yet. Just say your Hail Obama's, watch Duck Dynasty and try your best to refrain from saying "using the whole fist, Doc? Swiiing looow, sweet chariooot". How many get that movie reference?

You ever serve time, Doc? ;)

thunderkyss
08-16-2013, 09:50 AM
I agree. We will most likely merge with China, unless Obama gets a 3rd term.

I'm pretty sure it'll be a hostile takeover.... of course the history books will read merger, but you know how that goes.


Fletch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPStwD1C8-c)

leebigeztx
08-16-2013, 11:39 AM
That's only because of the Denver air. Schaub's long td passes are really more like Tue first one he threw to AJ. Schaub probably has the weakest arm of the three, with Case having the strongest.


If u go to training camp or see the guys just throw the ball,you would know and see the pop and rotations off yates ball is far greater than the other 2.That's doesn't mean he's the best qb,but he's the most skillful of the 3.

TejasTom
08-16-2013, 01:13 PM
Dude!!!! Think mid 80's. Great movie. IMHO.

I'm afraid nothing comes to mind for me either but sometimes I don't remember what I had for breakfast...

playa465
08-16-2013, 03:04 PM
I agree. We will most likely merge with China, unless Obama gets a 3rd term. In that case, we will be merging with Islam. Whatever that means. It can't be good and I don't think there's been a suicide bomber proof suit built yet. Just say your Hail Obama's, watch Duck Dynasty and try your best to refrain from saying "using the whole fist, Doc? Swiiing looow, sweet chariooot". How many get that movie reference?

Just relax. LOL, I remember Fletch.

b0ng
08-16-2013, 11:08 PM
Easy answer.. because there is absolutely horrible QB play in this league, just for starters.. teams like OAK, Jax, and NY.

Never implied the Jets lol

Carr Bombed
08-17-2013, 02:06 AM
Never implied the Jets lol

:vincepalm: Before you start labeling people's opinions as "doubling retarded", you really REALLY need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

I never doubted that I mentioned (or implied) the Jets could be a threat to take him..So I really don't understand your post above. I mean I know it's late on a Friday night, but where the hell did you get that I never implied the jets from?

All I did was simply throw the B.S. flag up in the air when you tried to imply that I said Rex would try to snag a QB like Keenum off the waiver wire to replace Sanchez with.

All I did was mention "possibilities" or teams that could be looking to add another QB to bolster their horrible QB situation and those teams that I mentioned were the first that popped in my head. Newsflash, most teams carry 3 QBs on their roster, so if Keenum is snagged off the wire, I highly doubt he'd be grabbed up to be a starter or even a backup like you tried to IMPLY that I said. There are only 22 offensive and defensive starters.. if a team feels that Keenum can upgrade one of the other spots, they'll grab him.. That's all I ever said, so where the hell did you ever get that I mentioned Rex would look at Keenum as a replacement for Sanchez?

drs23
08-17-2013, 04:59 PM
WE INTERRUPT YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PISSING MATCH...

To say that this will be Case's first real challenge at the pro level IIRC. He's always played with the fodder prior to this evening. I guess the eyeball test should tell us if he's progressed further than TJ has. I, for one, am really looking forward to the 3rd or so series. Also wanna see the first stringers with Matt for as true of a back-to-back comparison as we're likely to be able to see.

For all you folks that actually got to attend the the game I'm hoping you all had a great first of the season tailgaiting experience.

Kinda wish I was there but no biggie, I get to watch it with Baby Girl! I know she's only two but she knows PawPaw loves his Texans so so does she!

ArTex
08-18-2013, 12:56 PM
Jake Delhome, Jeff Garcia are two names I can think of.

John Kitna is another guy.
He wend undrafted in 1996, but ended up starting 124 games.
His teams weren't very good, but he managed to win the division once (in 99) and garnered Come Back Player of the Year in 2003.

Off top of my head, Jay Fiedler is another decent undrafted starting qb

("QBs Undrafted Whos Names Start With J" please, Alex)

forcefollow
08-18-2013, 04:19 PM
I am a homer, I am drinking the coolaid, preseason doesn't mean anything, back up quarterbacks are always the most popular guy on the team, I don't know anything about football, Keenum is a system guy, Keenum had no serious competition in college, Keenum has been playing against scrubs.

I am sure I have left some things out but I think that covers most of the rebuttals for this thread.

I believe that I have been patient enough with Schaub, he's been here for years and I think he has already peaked as a professional. Among other knocks against Schaub I am particularly irritated by his under thrown long balls and chokes in big time situations.

I am not saying Keenum is the next Drew Brees but I am saying he has shown enough that I want to see what he can do in the regular season. If Schaub starts to struggle this year I want to see him benched and Keenum given a shot.

Hervoyel
08-18-2013, 05:06 PM
The best thing about the backup battle last night was that both of them looked good. In week one I thought Keenum looked better than Yates. This week I thought Yates looked better than Keenum. Both weeks I felt like we had real depth at QB.

This is a good problem to have.

drs23
08-18-2013, 07:31 PM
I am not saying Keenum is the next Drew Brees but I am saying he has shown enough that I want to see what he can do in the regular season. If Schaub starts to struggle this year I want to see him benched and Keenum given a shot.

I trust you won't be terribly crushed as that has no chance in hell of happening.

Dream on.

Speedy
08-18-2013, 09:07 PM
Through 2 practice games:

Keenum 24-36 (66.7%), 275 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 7.6 Y/A
Yates 20-30 (66.7%), 235 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 7.8 Y/A

Pass completions of 20 yards or more: Case 4, TJ 2.

Possessions:
Keenum - 9 drives;
4 punts
3 TD
2 FG

Yates - 9 drives;
5 punts
2 TD
1 missed FG
1 fumble by RB

Texn4life
08-18-2013, 09:11 PM
Through 2 practice games:

Keenum 24-36 (66.7%), 275 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 7.6 Y/A
Yates 20-30 (66.7%), 235 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 7.8 Y/A

Pass completions of 20 yards or more: Case 4, TJ 2.

Possessions:
Keenum - 9 drives;
4 punts
3 TD
2 FG

Yates - 9 drives;
5 punts
2 TD
1 missed FG
1 fumble by RB

That's about as even as it gets right there. I'm impressed TJ has responded the way he has. He almost looks like he's having more fun this year too.

steelbtexan
08-18-2013, 09:16 PM
I trust you won't be terribly crushed as that has no chance in hell of happening.

Dream on.

True,

LOL

Carr Bombed
08-18-2013, 10:07 PM
That's about as even as it gets right there. I'm impressed TJ has responded the way he has. He almost looks like he's having more fun this year too.

The stats are even, but stats don't measure drops, situations, or down and distances.

Texn4life
08-18-2013, 10:12 PM
The stats are even, but stats don't measure drops, situations, or down and distances.

And considering all of that the battle favors who in your opinion?

Texan_Bill
08-18-2013, 10:18 PM
And considering all of that the battle favors who in your opinion?

Actually in my opinion, no one guy over the other one. Believe it or not, that's a really good problem to have.

Obviously Schaub is the number1; Yates and Keenum battling for number 2, is actually a really good thing. Well, me thinks!

GuerillaBlack
08-18-2013, 10:23 PM
And considering all of that the battle favors who in your opinion?

Case.

He just moves better back there. It's looking like UH. I really wanna see him with the 1s like CB because I think he could really shine. Schaub would have to be absolutely horrific, or injured, for Case to get a chance tho. He will beat out TJ because he is just a better player. He is a better player than Schaub too, just doesn't have the NFL experience. There is definitely a brees going through those hallways in reliant.

thunderkyss
08-18-2013, 10:32 PM
And considering all of that the battle favors who in your opinion?

I think Tj's experience is still the trump card. It's importance can not be overstated.

A big plus on Case's side... he seems to energize the whole team. Elevate them if you will. Also can't be overstated.

badboy
08-18-2013, 10:49 PM
My point is that unless you run a vertical attack, which is not what the WCO is about, you don't need your QB to have a cannon of an arm.

40 yard throw is good enough to keep the defense honest.
You want your QB to be able to direct the offense downfield methodically.
Short, safe throws that reduce the number of third and long.
Catch them off-guard here and there if they try to play close to the vest.Agree and prefer an accurate passer rather a cannon arm; both but would be awesome but those are rare. Interesting but means nothing, Schaub increased his average per pass from college to pro. If Case does the same, watch out. 2010 & 2011 he avg apprx 9.5. :clap:

thunderkyss
08-18-2013, 10:56 PM
People who think arm strength is about throwing 40+ yard passes do not understand arm strength.

Rey
08-19-2013, 12:10 AM
Tannehill showed arm strength on that throw to split defenders for that TD.

That's the kind of throw Schaub struggles with and it's why if our running game isn't going in the red zone we struggle to score TDs.

b0ng
08-19-2013, 12:13 AM
No what's "doubly retarded" is your asinine assuptions (and you know what they say about assuming). Please show me where in the hell I ever said the Jets would pick up Case

And the wheel keeps going. I'm sure you'll move the goalposts some more in order to make a long winded post that boils down to "No I didn't say that".

Anyways, pedantic arguments with Carr Bombed aside, now that we have two games worth of Keenum ball along with some Kubiak comments Case has made himself a question to make the 53. I wonder if he comes in as 2nd QB against NO.

Scooter
08-19-2013, 12:23 AM
And considering all of that the battle favors who in your opinion?

i give it to keenum, especially if we needed to sub a guy in. a backup who's different from the starter (especially a mobile one) is a huge mess for the defense to adjust to. TK is right that yates will likely hold onto the job this year because of his experience, but as of right now i have keenum being the better player - and with a higher ceiling.

powda
08-19-2013, 12:25 AM
Noticed today while watching both games that yates seems to have had a forgotten drive. At the end of the first half in the first game yates engineered what should have been a scoring drive. Bulluck missed the kick. Yate's play here seems to be overlooked due to the technical difficulties encountered by abc. The running game was ineffective for yates week 1 as well.

Not that I have a dog in the race. May the best qb win. Just an observation.

silvrhand
08-19-2013, 01:21 AM
Tannehill showed arm strength on that throw to split defenders for that TD.

That's the kind of throw Schaub struggles with and it's why if our running game isn't going in the red zone we struggle to score TDs.

WINNER!

Noone on our team has that kind of arm strength to make the "unopen" receivers open, also is there never a time when they throw the ball before the receiver breaks?

Texn4life
08-19-2013, 01:39 AM
I can't lie. I'm starting to drink the Case koolaid myself. I need to see a lot more, but there were a couple of throws he made that really impressed me. His boots and his ability to move also make me wonder how much more this offense is capable of.

One play that he made really impressed me. The Dolphins ran a stunt up front where a D-Lineman came free inside. Case just kind of gave him a fake, rolled out. and ended up throwing the ball away. It was a 1st and 10 play, but it wasn't a negative play that would've put us behind the chains. All I could think was if that was Schaub we'd be staring at 2nd and 16 right there. Someone else said it, but if Kubiak had any kind of guts he'd let Case get a series or 2 next week with the ones at the end of the half and after.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 01:43 AM
People who think arm strength is about throwing 40+ yard passes do not understand arm strength.

When you throw a 45-yd deep out to a receiver than can run a 4.44 in stride, it's called arm strength, is it not?

You simply cannot lob the ball for it to get there that soon.

silvrhand
08-19-2013, 01:46 AM
When you throw a 45-yd deep out to a receiver than can run a 4.44 in stride, it's called arm strength, is it not?

You simply cannot lob the ball for it to get there that soon.

There is no such thing as a 45 yard deep out route.. Or are you saying 45 yards across the field.. If so, very few in any QB's should ever attempt to throw a deep out 15 yards across the field.. you'll get benched before long.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 01:49 AM
There is no such thing as a 45 yard deep out route.. Or are you saying 45 yards across the field.. If so, very few in any QB's should ever attempt to throw a deep out 15 yards across the field.. you'll get benched before long.

I'm sorry, I meant to say a go route to the corner of the end zone, like the two he threw to Lemon at the end of the half.

BTW, I just rewatched those two plays, and each time he released the ball just after the 2-sec mark, with a defender pushing the blocker right close to Keenum. If he had a little cleaner of a pocket, either one of those could have very well been a TD.

I heard that Lemon was bumped on the second play as well, but the TV feed from the Miami channel (that I have) doesn't show it.

NastyNate
08-19-2013, 01:57 AM
I'm sorry, I meant to say a go route to the corner of the end zone, like the two he threw to Lemon at the end of the half.

BTW, I just rewatched those two plays, and each time he released the ball just after the 2-sec mark, with a defender pushing the blocker right close to Keenum. If he had a little cleaner of a pocket, either one of those could have very well been a TD.

I heard that Lemon was bumped on the second play as well, but the TV feed from the Miami channel (that I have) doesn't show it.

It was a hold on Lemon.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 02:01 AM
It was a hold on Lemon.

Did they show it on the Houston feed with the correct angle, or did you see it at the game?

Scooter
08-19-2013, 02:16 AM
I'm sorry, I meant to say a go route to the corner of the end zone, like the two he threw to Lemon at the end of the half.

i kept thinking andre would've caught at least one of those. i think it was the second one - lemon got off poorly, ended up curling from inside out, and then slowed to make contact with the DB ... and he's not the fastest guy ever to begin with. that looked like one where keenum drops it on a spot and his receiver is supposed to run under it, dre probably gets there.

ObsiWan
08-19-2013, 04:07 AM
WINNER!

Noone on our team has that kind of arm strength to make the "unopen" receivers open, also is there never a time when they throw the ball before the receiver breaks?

You should re-watch Schaub's very first completion to A.J. 'Dre ran a ~ 15 yd IN and Schaub let the ball go just before A.J. made his inside cut. When he turned in the ball was on him.

Point is, we make timing throws like that more often than people think.

PapaL
08-19-2013, 05:54 AM
Lets keep expectations in check here. This was a preseason game vs 2's. As good as i thought he looked no one is game planning vs Case. Lets stop working on the HOF bust. IJS...

TejasTom
08-19-2013, 08:19 AM
Did they show it on the Houston feed with the correct angle, or did you see it at the game?

I saw it at the game.

silvrhand
08-19-2013, 08:57 AM
Did they show it on the Houston feed with the correct angle, or did you see it at the game?

There was no hold, that play is almost directly in front and at first I thought it was a hold till the replay showed it. It was a bump down the field but it wasn't a hold.

thunderkyss
08-19-2013, 10:02 AM
Tannehill showed arm strength on that throw to split defenders for that TD.



That's a good example of why arm strength is important.

It should also be taken into account when things don't go right & the QB has to make something happen. Throwing on the run, throwing off his back foot, not being able to follow through, throwing across your body... all the things you're not supposed to do, but inevitably have to.

A strong arm can compensate for not being able to set your feet right or other conditions that are less than ideal.

thunderkyss
08-19-2013, 10:14 AM
Noone on our team has that kind of arm strength to make the "unopen" receivers open, also is there never a time when they throw the ball before the receiver breaks?

Just to be picky.....

That throw had nothing to do with throwing someone open. That was about Wallace selling the inside route.

No one on the defensive side of the ball has any idea where the receivers are going to go. They more or less guess & use their help. Jjo had Wallace up to about the 1 yard line, then widened his coverage incase Wallace broke to the flat. Manning stood on the goal line, then widened towards the post in case Wallace went behind him.

Wallace made it look like he was going to break his route behind Manning, but stopped on a dime & turned around.

Tannehill must have known that was an option on that route & because of where Manning was, he anticpated Wallace would come back to him. His ability to zip it in there made it impossible for either Manning or Jjo to recover..... watching, you can see that they realized their mistake, they just didn't have enough time to get back.

Cutler threw a nice TD with Zip to Brandon Marshall as well. It was near the sideline, so it was much farther than the actual yard markers & BM had a DB draped on him. Cutler was able to get that ball into Marshall's gut before the defender could even swipe at it.

Mind you arm strength isn't everything. I'd much rather have Schaub (though I'm not a fan) than Cutler.

Speedy
08-19-2013, 10:16 AM
Lets keep expectations in check here. This was a preseason game vs 2's. As good as i thought he looked no one is game planning vs Case. Lets stop working on the HOF bust. IJS...

Dude, nobody is saying he's going to the freaking HOF! We're all talking backup QB. BACKUP!! Well, with the exception of one or two who thinks he should take over for Schaub now.

It IS pre-season so in pre-season we talk not so much about the game and strategy but more about position battles. A few starting spots like the o-line, but a lot about backup/depth.

If you don't care for Keenum that's fine. But to constantly rag on the dude because you don't like him, think he's Timmy Chang, think he's too short, buy the BS weak arm crap or whatever, and totally ignore the fact that he looks like a decent NFL BACKUP right now and is battling like a mother against Yates, then I don't know man. I don't know what to tell people like that.

cstyle42
08-19-2013, 10:49 AM
Case Keenum has great pocket presence when it comes to evading the pressure of a pass rush or blitz then extending the play. That's where Matt Schaub is complete trash... outside of that I really respect Schaub's game. I'm definitely happy to see Case developing into a possible great starting qb but right now he's a backup due to the process.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 10:49 AM
Kubiak (on if he anticipates making a decision about who will be the backup quarterback after the fourth preseason game) “Oh, no doubt. Yeah, that decision could be made middle of the opening week. I don’t know yet. We’re in no hurry there.”

(on if there is a chance he doesn’t keep three quarterbacks) “I don’t know. I’m going to keep good football players, I can tell you that. Those three guys are good football players right now. There’s a chance.”

Does that sound like we're keeping three QBs to you?

Vinnie
08-19-2013, 10:55 AM
Does that sound like we're keeping three QBs to you?

Yeah, I think it's a foregone conclusion. LZ even mentioned this morning that considering their play so far, if either Case or TJ were to land on the PS they'd be snatched. I don't see Kubiak letting that happen with all the time they've put in developing these guys.

Texecutioner
08-19-2013, 11:01 AM
I trust you won't be terribly crushed as that has no chance in hell of happening.

Dream on.

This is not exactly true. Case just needs to take the position from Yates. Yates is never going to be the starter here. Not sure why some people still have this delusion of that ever happening. Even Kubiak isn't that silly.

If Case can decisively take the 2nd string job, Schaub could easily get hurt with how slow he is when he is blitzed or takes a hit. Everyone knows Schaub is pretty fragile. Case could potentially get a chance to start for a game or so in the regular season and could potentially shine for all we know. I've watched Schaub so far this season, and he looks slower then ever. His release does as well. There is no doubt in my mind that he'll struggle a lot against teams that effectively blitz us and get to Schaub, because he simply can't extend plays where defenders disrupt his pocket presence. Case may be going against scrubs, but with his skill set, even if his QB IQ is worse then Schaub's, I think his other intangibles also being other strengths that Schaub doesn't have. When I see a guy like Case moving around in the pocket and making nice throws with better velocity and nice placement, this offense looks like it has tons of more potential.

All it will take is a Schaub injury which we've seen in 3 different seasons could easily happen.

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2013, 11:03 AM
When you watch other preseason games and see all the terrible QB play from the backups, it's pretty clear that we've got a helluva luxury here in that we've got 2 guys who are respectable backups. I'm really excited by Case because he seems to be growing by leaps and bounds.

I don't know, but I suspect, he's a gamer. He's one of those guys that doesn't practice all that well but who turns it on when the lights come on.

And with Kubiak and a lot of NFL coaches, that's kind of a problem. They don't want to trust anyone who isn't showing them they've got it down during practice. A gamer doesn't help those around him out during practice and might even be a detriment during the week.

Last year, people were worried about Case getting snatched off our PS and those fears were unwarranted. But now? No way he clears waivers.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 11:12 AM
I don't know, but I suspect, he's a gamer. He's one of those guys that doesn't practice all that well but who turns it on when the lights come on.

And with Kubiak and a lot of NFL coaches, that's kind of a problem. They don't want to trust anyone who isn't showing them they've got it down during practice. A gamer doesn't help those around him out during practice and might even be a detriment during the week.


We really don't know what they are doing in practice at times even if we watch it.

Kubiak could tell the QB, hey, throw a ball high and wide, I want to see if this receiver can go get it.

Or he could say, hey, I want you to throw the ball into that tight space; I want to see these two guys fighting for it.

Sometimes, at field level, we can't tell whether a receiver is running the correct route.

I mean, there's a ton of things that we don't have a clue about.

Tailgate
08-19-2013, 11:51 AM
Would be fantastic if we had our QB of the future on the roster already.

That being said, this Gruden tweet had me thinking... Two seconds is how we got our current starter.

Jon Gruden on ESPN: "If I were a coach, I'd offer a first-round pick to the Redskins to get Kirk Cousins on my team."

thunderkyss
08-19-2013, 12:20 PM
Case Keenum has great pocket presence when it comes to evading the pressure of a pass rush or blitz then extending the play. That's where Matt Schaub is complete trash... outside of that I really respect Schaub's game. I'm definitely happy to see Case developing into a possible great starting qb but right now he's a backup due to the process.

I really hate defending Matt but he's not complete trash. Not as good as we like, sure. But not complete trash.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2013, 12:21 PM
Would be fantastic if we had our QB of the future on the roster already.

That being said, this Gruden tweet had me thinking... Two seconds is how we got our current starter.

If I'm the Redskins, I'm keeping Cousins because I don't expect RG3 to make it through a whole season intact.

Carr Bombed
08-19-2013, 01:23 PM
And the wheel keeps going. I'm sure you'll move the goalposts some more in order to make a long winded post that boils down to "No I didn't say that".

You are delusional.. the posts are public record for everyone to read. Nowhere in any post did I ever say what you said I did. You jumped to conclusions, stuck your foot in your mouth, showed your ***, and accused someone of posting something they didn't.. now you're just being too proud to admit you were wrong. Nobody is moving goal posts, you just shanked the kick.

Anyways.. you still think it sounds dumb to have the opinion that if we cut Keenum, he won't make it to our PS? :vincepalm: There's a reoccurring theme in this thread.. you being wrong.

cstyle42
08-19-2013, 01:26 PM
I really hate defending Matt but he's not complete trash. Not as good as we like, sure. But not complete trash.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

I concur. I was pointing out one specific area of his game when he's getting blitzed or rushed. You just can't teach athletic ability or foot speed coordination.

GuerillaBlack
08-19-2013, 02:24 PM
I really hate defending Matt but he's not complete trash. Not as good as we like, sure. But not complete trash.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

He said Schaub is trash when trying to extend plays, which is true. Schaub isn't a playmaker and won't make things happen.

PapaL
08-19-2013, 02:51 PM
Schaub isn't a playmaker and won't make things happen.


He must have lucked in those 4000 yards last year huh? Those back to back 4000 yards were a total fluke too.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 02:56 PM
He must have lucked in those 4000 yards last year huh? Those back to back 4000 yards were a total fluke too.

Could have been 5,000 yards, LOL!
:kitten:

PapaL
08-19-2013, 02:57 PM
Could have been 5,000 yards, LOL!
:kitten:

Touche :runaway:

Case would've thrown for 6000 yards

Rey
08-19-2013, 03:04 PM
He must have lucked in those 4000 yards last year huh? Those back to back 4000 yards were a total fluke too.

Sage was on the radio today and he was talking about how this offense is kind of simple and doesn't put a lot of pressure on the QB's. Pretty much the same thing that's been said by members here. He talked about how when he was here he loved playing for Kubiak because things were very black and white. When QB's called a play he knew this, that and that was his options on the play. Again, been said here before.

Where Schaub struggles at times is when things don't go as planned or he has to make a play "off schedule". You can be a fine system QB...Or a QB that fits well in a system (since people have a weird hang up on "system player"), but there are players that can transcend a system by adding their own unique flair to it. Their mobility, their instincts, their big play ability, their anticipation, their strong arm, great accuracy, their film study and ability to know what defense are doing....

Matt has some of those characteristics but I don't know if anyone thing is strong enough in him that you'd call him a playmaker. Now maybe he could be if he was given more freedom. But he does not have the same amount of freedom that some of these other QB's have.

If anyone doubts that, go listen to the podcast from sr610 of the Sage interview. Unless you think he's a flat out liar for some reason then that really should be the end of it.

He specifically talks about how this offense is basically streamlined with options within each play so that it's easier on the QB to make reads and go through progressions (AKA QB friendly system)) vs his experience behind Eli Manning where he said that Eli basically has access to the whole playbook when he walks up to the LOS.

eriadoc
08-19-2013, 03:06 PM
He must have lucked in those 4000 yards last year huh? Those back to back 4000 yards were a total fluke too.

You don't have to be a playmaker to throw for 4000 yards in today's NFL. You have to be a good QB, so I'm not saying Schaub is bad. But how many of those 4000 yards do you remember thinking only a handful of QBs would have gotten? In all honesty, half the QBs in the league would throw for 4000 yards in this offense under Gary Kubiak, maybe more. Hell, Jake Plummer threw for 4000 yards in this offense.

Moreover, the poster said that Schaub was trash in one specific, very narrowly defined area. That's completely defensible. You don't have to be evasive to throw for 4000 yards in Kubiak's offense. Schaub is NOT evasive. In fact, he's probably only slightly more athletic than QBs that have been called statues in years past.

This whole 4000 yard thing is seriously being overplayed by some of y'all. Schaub's a good QB, but it's not because he threw for 4000 yards.

Rey
08-19-2013, 03:16 PM
You don't have to be a playmaker to throw for 4000 yards in today's NFL. You have to be a good QB, so I'm not saying Schaub is bad. But how many of those 4000 yards do you remember thinking only a handful of QBs would have gotten? In all honesty, half the QBs in the league would throw for 4000 yards in this offense under Gary Kubiak, maybe more. Hell, Jake Plummer threw for 4000 yards in this offense.

Moreover, the poster said that Schaub was trash in one specific, very narrowly defined area. That's completely defensible. You don't have to be evasive to throw for 4000 yards in Kubiak's offense. Schaub is NOT evasive. In fact, he's probably only slightly more athletic than QBs that have been called statues in years past.

This whole 4000 yard thing is seriously being overplayed by some of y'all. Schaub's a good QB, but it's not because he threw for 4000 yards.

There are quite a few QB's that I think would be better in this offense than where they are currently. Cam Newton, Josh Freeman, Joe Flacco, Sam Bradford...And a bunch of others.

Schaub is a good player, but that's where it ends. He's not great but good. He's smart, works hard, knows what to do. Those are good attributes to have, but those alone won't make you great.

Thorn
08-19-2013, 03:41 PM
When you watch other preseason games and see all the terrible QB play from the backups, it's pretty clear that we've got a helluva luxury here in that we've got 2 guys who are respectable backups. I'm really excited by Case because he seems to be growing by leaps and bounds.

I've watched some other preseason games, and you're exactly right. Some of those other teams have jack **** for their 3rd string QB wannabees.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 03:44 PM
Except for size (and the fact that he's not super quick like RGIII), I would have to say that Keenum has all the qualities of a QB that Bill Walsh wants.

I remember how Madden talks about the difference between what he wants in a QB vs Walsh; the main thing was that Madden wants his QB to zip the ball even if it's a 5-yd pass while Walsh prefers touch when needed.

In a book that I read, the author told the story of how Montana wasn't asked to go through all five reads until year four or something like that.

With Keenum, one the things that impresses me is how he can go through all five reads in about two seconds in the one back set or in empty.
It is extremely rare that you can find a young QB that can do it.

Also, I'm very impressed with the movement of his eyes and head.
He makes it difficult for the LBs and the safeties to tell where he's gonna go with the ball. You want your QB to be able to freeze these guys for a split of a second to make life easier for the target, be it the RB, the FB, the TE, or the receiver.

There's no way Gabbert can be a starter over Keenum.
I was so glad the Jags didn't take Keenum.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 04:03 PM
In the same book, the author also recounted an interview with a QB whose name skipped my memory.

This QB prospect talked about how the coaches that he went through in workouts wanted to see him throw a rope on deep balls.

He was surprised when Walsh ask him to throw the ball with a little touch on those deep balls (not floating the ball, mind you.)

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2013, 04:15 PM
In the same book, the author also recounted an interview with a QB whose name skipped my memory.

This QB prospect talked about how the coaches that he went through in workouts wanted to see him throw a rope on deep balls.

He was surprised when Walsh ask him to throw the ball with a little touch on those deep balls (not floating the ball, mind you.)

A tangential point but...

Several many years ago, Jeff Blake was one of the hot, new QBs and he was hitting lots of deep passes. And he was doing it by putting extra loft to the ball so that it came down more like a punt. For a DB expecting a throw on a rope, it was coming from a different place and it was dropping right into the receiver while the DB was trying to locate it.

Of course, he had like 1 season where that worked and then everybody figured out how to stop it and had a book on him. And that was pretty much it for him.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 04:37 PM
A tangential point but...

Several many years ago, Jeff Blake was one of the hot, new QBs and he was hitting lots of deep passes. And he was doing it by putting extra loft to the ball so that it came down more like a punt. For a DB expecting a throw on a rope, it was coming from a different place and it was dropping right into the receiver while the DB was trying to locate it.

Of course, he had like 1 season where that worked and then everybody figured out how to stop it and had a book on him. And that was pretty much it for him.

I must say that I don't follow Jeff Blake, but you got me to look him up.
It doesn't look to me like he was punting the ball:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=UhKATuCZ1Ds

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U11SmWC_UNY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DU11SmWC_UNY

badboy
08-19-2013, 04:48 PM
You don't have to be a playmaker to throw for 4000 yards in today's NFL. You have to be a good QB, so I'm not saying Schaub is bad. But how many of those 4000 yards do you remember thinking only a handful of QBs would have gotten? In all honesty, half the QBs in the league would throw for 4000 yards in this offense under Gary Kubiak, maybe more. Hell, Jake Plummer threw for 4000 yards in this offense.

Moreover, the poster said that Schaub was trash in one specific, very narrowly defined area. That's completely defensible. You don't have to be evasive to throw for 4000 yards in Kubiak's offense. Schaub is NOT evasive. In fact, he's probably only slightly more athletic than QBs that have been called statues in years past.

This whole 4000 yard thing is seriously being overplayed by some of y'all. Schaub's a good QB, but it's not because he threw for 4000 yards.
It was also said that Texans offense would allow any runner to get a thousand yards. If so, what happened between Dommanick Davis (Williams) and Foster?

badboy
08-19-2013, 04:50 PM
Except for size (and the fact that he's not super quick like RGIII), I would have to say that Keenum has all the qualities of a QB that Bill Walsh wants.

I remember how Madden talks about the difference between what he wants in a QB vs Walsh; the main thing was that Madden wants his QB to zip the ball even if it's a 5-yd pass while Walsh prefers touch when needed.

In a book that I read, the author told the story of how Montana wasn't asked to go through all five reads until year four or something like that.

With Keenum, one the things that impresses me is how he can go through all five reads in about two seconds in the one back set or in empty.
It is extremely rare that you can find a young QB that can do it.Also, I'm very impressed with the movement of his eyes and head.
He makes it difficult for the LBs and the safeties to tell where he's gonna go with the ball. You want your QB to be able to freeze these guys for a split of a second to make life easier for the target, be it the RB, the FB, the TE, or the receiver.

There's no way Gabbert can be a starter over Keenum.
I was so glad the Jags didn't take Keenum.Above plus he never looks panic if play breaks down. I still think his biggest asset is his brain.

GuerillaBlack
08-19-2013, 04:52 PM
It was also said that Texans offense would allow any runner to get a thousand yards. If so, what happened between Dommanick Davis (Williams) and Foster?

Steve Slaton with over 1280 yards one year and then rb by committee the next (and Foster showing signs of the future towards the end of 09).

eriadoc
08-19-2013, 04:56 PM
It was also said that Texans offense would allow any runner to get a thousand yards. If so, what happened between Dommanick Davis (Williams) and Foster?

Hello, Steve Slaton.

Anyway, it was pretty clear that I meant half or maybe more of the starting QBs in the NFL, not "any" QB. And if it makes you happy, I'll amend my statement to say "NFL caliber starters". How many of those crappy RBs the Texans endured are even in the NFL any longer? The fact that Slappy the college RB didn't manage 1000 yards as a Texan doesn't mean much when he didn't go anywhere else and see any success, either.

I get it that some people like to argue just to argue. I do it myself sometimes. But pick a defensible position.

The Pencil Neck
08-19-2013, 05:03 PM
I must say that I don't follow Jeff Blake, but you got me to look him up.
It doesn't look to me like he was punting the ball:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=UhKATuCZ1Ds

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U11SmWC_UNY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DU11SmWC_UNY

Ignore the Saints highlights, that was after he'd been in the league for awhile and changed a bit. Look at the earlier, Bengals highlights. He doesn't do it every time, but his whole thing was trying to get the ball to come in to his receiver at more of a downward angle and you can see it in some of those older highlights.

They even had him on the old sports programs back in the 90's talking about it.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 05:05 PM
Above plus he never looks panic if play breaks down. I still think his biggest asset is his brain.

No chuck and duck; no fetal position, LOL!

bOODRO87
08-19-2013, 05:18 PM
Keenum sure is looking good. It's strange seeing a Texans QB getting the ball into the hands of the receivers within seconds. Almost like how Brady was against us in the playoffs. He may get some batted down, but he looks really composed in the pocket. I would love to see a GIF comparing Schaub's and Keenum's wind up/throwing speed on a similar throw.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 05:51 PM
Keenum sure is looking good. It's strange seeing a Texans QB getting the ball into the hands of the receivers within seconds. Almost like how Brady was against us in the playoffs. He may get some batted down, but he looks really composed in the pocket. I would love to see a GIF comparing Schaub's and Keenum's wind up/throwing speed on a similar throw.

One of the balls that was batted down was due to the fact the
RG was getting some help from the C.
The Center thought that with his help, the RG would finish the DT off; however, it looks like the RG was thinking that the Center will take over so he left to help the RT.
That left the DT unblocked and he was able to get there at the last moment.

drs23
08-19-2013, 06:27 PM
It was also said that Texans offense would allow any runner to get a thousand yards. If so, what happened between Dommanick Davis (Williams) and Foster?

My arm hurts so I can't hold onto the ball Slaton?

Edit: (to eriadoc: just read your follow up post) this wasn't meant to be argumentative though I've been known to be so in the past, I was just more or less being my ol' smartass self. :D

thunderkyss
08-19-2013, 06:28 PM
I concur. I was pointing out one specific area of his game when he's getting blitzed or rushed. You just can't teach athletic ability or foot speed coordination.

In the last 8 weeks or so I've gone back & watched every game I still had on my DVR from last season.... about 10 of them. & Schaub made several plays off schedule. Nothing like Kaepernick, but several plays outside the pocket. At least once every game I watched, sometimes twice. & that's not counting the plays he took a big shot & still threw a catchable ball.

I was surprised to see it, because I couldn't remember more than two all year, but they're there. Even as late as the @Indy game.

thunderkyss
08-19-2013, 06:36 PM
Matt has some of those characteristics but I don't know if anyone thing is strong enough in him that you'd call him a playmaker. Now maybe he could be if he was given more freedom. But he does not have the same amount of freedom that some of these other QB's have.

If anyone doubts that, go listen to the podcast from sr610 of the Sage interview. Unless you think he's a flat out liar for some reason then that really should be the end of it.

He specifically talks about how this offense is basically streamlined with options within each play so that it's easier on the QB to make reads and go through progressions (AKA QB friendly system)) vs his experience behind Eli Manning where he said that Eli basically has access to the whole playbook when he walks up to the LOS.

At the same time, we've seen Orlavsky struggle in this system. & Washington has gone through several guys who couldn't perform to minimum QB standards..... first rounders like David Carr, Rex Grossman & Matt Lienart.

You make it sound like anyone can throw for 4000 yards in 3 of the last 4 seasons in this system. Matt Schaub is a very good square peg in a very good square hole.

Now, clutch factor is something different & something worth arguing.

thunderkyss
08-19-2013, 06:48 PM
I must say that I don't follow Jeff Blake, but you got me to look him up.
It doesn't look to me like he was punting the ball:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=UhKATuCZ1Ds

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U11SmWC_UNY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DU11SmWC_UNY

When Houston didn't have a team, I followed the Saints a bit (couldn't watch the Cowboys & I was a big Ricky Williams fan). I used to love watching Mighty Joe Horn, loved his story too.

I thought it was odd for a guy to go from obscurity to "big headed narcissist" in such a short time. But he was awesome to watch for a little while.

Jeff Blake was kinda short though.

76Texan
08-19-2013, 06:54 PM
At the same time, we've seen Orlavsky struggle in this system. & Washington has gone through several guys who couldn't perform to minimum QB standards..... first rounders like David Carr, Rex Grossman & Matt Lienart.

You make it sound like anyone can throw for 4000 yards in 3 of the last 4 seasons in this system. Matt Schaub is a very good square peg in a very good square hole.

Now, clutch factor is something different & something worth arguing.

A few years ago, Silvrhand asked for my opinion on Schaub, and I agreed with him that Schaub is a QB that is good enough to take you to the dance, but he doesn't have the charisma to be the major partner. He needs a girl that can shine while he stays strong and steady.

Schaub fell a bit short on that regard last year, and the girl didn't shine either.

legacy_gt
08-19-2013, 06:58 PM
this isn't a schaub thread....lol Matt is our guy weather you like it or not until proven otherwise.


As far as Case, what happened to all those people worried about his size and his arm strength.

Seems to me that Case has the best arm strength, quickest release, and shows the most emotion. Case also has the best footwork and instincts.

He's the real deal. Fact of the matter is, TJ isn't playing bad. He's actually doing good. If TJ still does decent, he'll keep the 2nd QB position. And TJ should have no excuse because of his experience.

If Case is 3rd, he'll still work hard, study more, and will be ready if called. Most likely Case will do well against the Cowgirls. He'll put pressure on Schaub, which I think is good. I like how Case looked good with higher quality players last week. Can't imagine with foster and Johnson with Case.

Double Barrel
08-19-2013, 07:04 PM
Above plus he never looks panic if play breaks down. I still think his biggest asset is his brain.

What has impressed me the most about Case is his composure. Dude never looks rattled out there and this pre-season has really made me into a fan of his in just two games.

I like TJ...as a backup. But, something about Case says starter at some point. He is not going to take Schaub's job, but I would not be surprised if he grows into it someday.

Rey
08-19-2013, 10:10 PM
At the same time, we've seen Orlavsky struggle in this system. & Washington has gone through several guys who couldn't perform to minimum QB standards..... first rounders like David Carr, Rex Grossman & Matt Lienart.

You make it sound like anyone can throw for 4000 yards in 3 of the last 4 seasons in this system. Matt Schaub is a very good square peg in a very good square hole.

Now, clutch factor is something different & something worth arguing.

No, what I said is that qb's are generally better in this system than they are in others. I didn't say anything about any old scrub being able to come in and put up 4k yards.

Carr Bombed
08-19-2013, 10:30 PM
:vincepalm:

Solomon: Why Case Keenum should not be the Texans’ backup QB (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/08/why-case-keenum-should-not-be-the-texans-backup-qb/)


...and ground breaking journalism like this is why the Houston Crapnicle is the worst major market newspaper in the country.

I can understand if someone feels TJ should start, because of "experience" even if I don't believe that (if a guy has been in the same system through out his college and pro career and is in a dead heat with a 2nd year former PS player, then he should lose the spot anyhow)

... but to have that opinion solely, because Bradlee frickin Van Pelt sucked nearly 10 years ago is ludicrous and lazy. When Jerome Solomon shows up for his check, I hope he's at least wearing a mask and carrying a gun. He needs to take his act to Dallas, because all he usually does is hate on anything Houston and he's nothing, but a professional troll. I can't believe that guy actually gets paid for his opinions. He's just a broke ass Skip Bayless.

badboy
08-19-2013, 10:32 PM
What has impressed me the most about Case is his composure. Dude never looks rattled out there and this pre-season has really made me into a fan of his in just two games.

I like TJ...as a backup. But, something about Case says starter at some point. He is not going to take Schaub's job, but I would not be surprised if he grows into it someday.If I get what I want and we trade or cut MS after 2014, would you re-sign Yates for 2015 (if he would agree to reasonable deal + accept a back up role to Keenum or would you look elsewhere? Currently I am looking for a QB in next draft. It takes 2-3 years to develop so why not get one soon?

Scooter
08-19-2013, 11:32 PM
If I get what I want and we trade or cut MS after 2014, would you re-sign Yates for 2015 (if he would agree to reasonable deal + accept a back up role to Keenum or would you look elsewhere? Currently I am looking for a QB in next draft. It takes 2-3 years to develop so why not get one soon?

if we do decide keenum is our guy (getting well ahead of ourselves), i would attempt to trade both yates and schaub. yates is in his prime as far as the market goes, and i think we'd do right by schaub to get him somewhere he'd be a starter. it's a big deal to have a strong backup, but if we're following your route of taking someone relatively early i think we'd be ok with keenum, draft pick, and someone like mcgee.

Lucky
08-19-2013, 11:43 PM
if we do decide keenum is our guy (getting well ahead of ourselves), i would attempt to trade both yates and schaub.
Schaub's contract is untradeable $40 million left over 3 seasons. If a team wanted Schaub, they would just wait until the Texans released him, then sign him to a cap friendlier deal. Yates would certainly be picked up if released. I don't know what kind of trade value he would have. Recouping the 5th round pick invested would be the ceiling, I would think.

Yes, we are way, way, way ahead of ourselves.

badboy
08-19-2013, 11:49 PM
if we do decide keenum is our guy (getting well ahead of ourselves), i would attempt to trade both yates and schaub. yates is in his prime as far as the market goes, and i think we'd do right by schaub to get him somewhere he'd be a starter. it's a big deal to have a strong backup, but if we're following your route of taking someone relatively early i think we'd be ok with keenum, draft pick, and someone like mcgee.Good thing is we have two seasons to get where I want to be. We can sit and wait for offers for Yates. MS and Case would keep us stable and perhaps Yates could bring a third round? As 2014 deep draft supposedly, I'd like that this offseason please.

Scooter
08-19-2013, 11:57 PM
Schaub's contract is untradeable $40 million left over 3 seasons. If a team wanted Schaub, they would just wait until the Texans released him, then sign him to a cap friendlier deal. Yates would certainly be picked up if released. I don't know what kind of trade value he would have. Recouping the 5th round pick invested would be the ceiling, I would think.

Yes, we are way, way, way ahead of ourselves.

i'm terrible with the money side of things, good info. just for my own curiosity, starting with the '14 season, would an extension make him more attractive? or is there a way the texans could eat part of his salary to make a trade more possible?

i honestly cant imagine a scenario where schaub would be traded regardless of the texans' future (he'd be cut if we went that direction), but in an ideal "madden" type world of course you'd always want to grab another pick when possible.

Scooter
08-20-2013, 12:01 AM
Good thing is we have two seasons to get where I want to be. We can sit and wait for offers for Yates. MS and Case would keep us stable and perhaps Yates could bring a third round? As 2014 deep draft supposedly, I'd like that this offseason please.

the talk last year was that teams were coveting yates already, and the way this preseason is going there have to be several teams taking serious notice. all yates needs is a matt flynn type of chance to put up a pretty number and unless the reports are grossly overstated i think he could certainly fetch a 2nd rounder, or two. i honestly wouldnt be surprised if we we're fielding calls right now.

legacy_gt
08-20-2013, 12:05 AM
:vincepalm:

Solomon: Why Case Keenum should not be the Texans’ backup QB (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/08/why-case-keenum-should-not-be-the-texans-backup-qb/)


...and ground breaking journalism like this is why the Houston Crapnicle is the worst major market newspaper in the country.

I can understand if someone feels TJ should start, because of "experience" even if I don't believe that (if a guy has been in the same system through out his college and pro career and is in a dead heat with a 2nd year former PS player, then he should lose the spot anyhow)

... but to have that opinion solely, because Bradlee frickin Van Pelt sucked nearly 10 years ago is ludicrous and lazy. When Jerome Solomon shows up for his check, I hope he's at least wearing a mask and carrying a gun. He needs to take his act to Dallas, because all he usually does is hate on anything Houston and he's nothing, but a professional troll. I can't believe that guy actually gets paid for his opinions. He's just a broke ass Skip Bayless.

Solomon is garbage. It's like he isn't even watching any of the games. People that say, "there's a reason why Case wasn't drafted" need to stop. It's getting f'n old.

infantrycak
08-20-2013, 12:11 AM
the talk last year was that teams were coveting yates already, and the way this preseason is going there have to be several teams taking serious notice. all yates needs is a matt flynn type of chance to put up a pretty number and unless the reports are grossly overstated i think he could certainly fetch a 2nd rounder, or two. i honestly wouldnt be surprised if we we're fielding calls right now.

What reports? I haven't heard whisper one of interest in TJ.

Scooter
08-20-2013, 12:19 AM
What reports? I haven't heard whisper one of interest in TJ.

it's just memory (and i hardly have the best one) at this point unless someone can dig it up, but i remember there was talk last season of yates getting quite a bit of attention.

badboy
08-20-2013, 12:20 AM
Schaub's contract is untradeable $40 million left over 3 seasons. If a team wanted Schaub, they would just wait until the Texans released him, then sign him to a cap friendlier deal. Yates would certainly be picked up if released. I don't know what kind of trade value he would have. Recouping the 5th round pick invested would be the ceiling, I would think.

Yes, we are way, way, way ahead of ourselves.
To clarify, I am talking of trading MS after 2014 with two seasons left. If we trade him his prorated bonus is moved up to Texans 2015 which is $3.5 m each or $7 m off his 2015 base of $12.5 m = difference of $5 m. There exists $1 m each year for roster bonus and I am not clear if Houston would be responsible for that or new team. I always include when posting and state a savings of $3 m if cut or traded. His 2015 base and all new team would be responsible for is $12.5 m with 2016 at $14.5 not $40 million. I think there would be more than one team interested in that.

Yates a solid back up and perhaps a starter for some would be worth more than a 5th.

infantrycak
08-20-2013, 12:23 AM
There exists $1 m each year for roster bonus and I am not clear if Houston would be responsible for that or new team.

So long as the dates for the roster bonuses are post trade then the new team is responsible.

Lucky
08-20-2013, 12:30 AM
Yates a solid back up and perhaps a starter for some would be worth more than a 5th.
Whom does Yates start for? Besides possibly Oakland. I think much of the Texans 2nd string could start for Oakland.

What QB who was traded for more than a 5th do you compare Yates to?

badboy
08-20-2013, 12:32 AM
So long as the dates for the roster bonuses are post trade then the new team is responsible.
Good info. I had been told that but could not verify in CBA. That makes the savings $5.5 m cap.

badboy
08-20-2013, 12:39 AM
Whom does Yates start for? Besides possibly Oakland. I think much of the Texans 2nd string could start for Oakland.

What QB who was traded for more than a 5th do you compare Yates to?Today no one but dynamics can change as season progresses with QBs getting hurt. His value should increase especially if he does well in regular season. I don't think it should be a compare him to who got what in past but what another team will be willing to offer based upon their situation; add to that his salary/cap is just over 1/2 million. Good thing is we don't have to trade him. Personally, I would not trade him for a fifth and maybe not a 4th.

Sort of like Rockets trading Lin or Asik. Right deal, snap it up.

Scooter
08-20-2013, 01:22 AM
Whom does Yates start for? Besides possibly Oakland. I think much of the Texans 2nd string could start for Oakland.

i wouldnt trade within the division, but both the jags and titans are void of talent. when rex gets fired after this year the jets will be looking for someone.

i dont know how the backup situation is in most cases, but the chargers, cardinals, cheifs, vikings, and buccaneers have bleak futures at starter. there is also an influx of very young running quarterbacks that will need real backups (if not replacements) if injury or failure to develope show. the elites (brady, manning and brees) are also getting older with manning already 37.

combined with the inevitable turnover at head coach, there could be a lot of changes made at quarterback in the next year or two.

ChampionTexan
08-20-2013, 01:41 AM
i wouldnt trade within the division, but both the jags and titans are void of talent. when rex gets fired after this year the jets will be looking for someone.



Geno Smith is Idzik's guy, so even if/when Rex is gone, I don't see them giving up on him that soon.

Scooter
08-20-2013, 02:33 AM
Geno Smith is Idzik's guy, so even if/when Rex is gone, I don't see them giving up on him that soon.

most likely correct, though probably not the best idea for a gm to handcuff a new coach to a quarterback who may need a few years to develop. i'd want to bring in a guy like yates or another who has shown NFL skills, but then again it is the jets ... idzik may perpetuate the circus.

Rey
08-20-2013, 08:28 AM
I would keep Yates even if you moved keenum ahead of him.

DX-TEX
08-20-2013, 11:58 AM
On some other NFL forums I post on the Case/TJ battle is getting attention from fans of other teams. Lot of them are waiting to see if one gets release or Case gets put on the PS.

Vinnie
08-20-2013, 12:45 PM
On some other NFL forums I post on the Case/TJ battle is getting attention from fans of other teams. Lot of them are waiting to see if one gets release or Case gets put on the PS.

That doesn't surprise me. There's lot's of hideous backup QB play around the league from what I've seen from other team's preseason games so far.

paycheck71
08-20-2013, 12:50 PM
On some other NFL forums I post on the Case/TJ battle is getting attention from fans of other teams. Lot of them are waiting to see if one gets release or Case gets put on the PS.

Can you post some links? Would be interesting to see what other people think.

idymoe
08-20-2013, 02:46 PM
Go to Texas Chick's thread on Kubiak's historical rosters. He has carried 3 qb's in each of the last 4 seasons. I doubt very seriously he changes that this season.

76Texan
08-20-2013, 03:01 PM
http://houston.culturemap.com/news/sports/08-19-13-case-keenum-gets-help-from-important-friend-in-texans-qb-fight/

I don't care who's writing, I just want the information.

In summary:

Keenum and Jean worked together in the off-season;
that's a good thing to hear.

Jean likes Keenum's ball placement;
That's also good to hear.

76Texan
08-20-2013, 03:07 PM
Go to Texas Chick's thread on Kubiak's historical rosters. He has carried 3 qb's in each of the last 4 seasons. I doubt very seriously he changes that this season.

Nah, they will sign a veteran and put Keenum on the PS.

:kitten:

Rey
08-20-2013, 03:24 PM
http://houston.culturemap.com/news/sports/08-19-13-case-keenum-gets-help-from-important-friend-in-texans-qb-fight/

I don't care who's writing, I just want the information.

In summary:

Keenum and Jean worked together in the off-season;
that's a good thing to hear.

Jean likes Keenum's ball placement;
That's also good to hear.


Thanks for posting.

BullNation4Life
08-20-2013, 03:46 PM
Nah, they will sign a veteran and put Keenum on the PS.

:kitten:

I see what you did there Sir Stirrer of the Pot....

:bravo:

CloakNNNdagger
08-20-2013, 03:53 PM
Nah, they will sign a veteran and put Keenum on the PS.

:kitten:

It's always good to see chemistry in the making.

PapaL
08-20-2013, 04:24 PM
Jean likes Keenum's ball placement;
That's also good to hear.

:lol::ahhaha:

idymoe
08-20-2013, 04:29 PM
Nah, they will sign a veteran and put Keenum on the PS.

:kitten:



Not taking the bait.

76Texan
08-20-2013, 05:31 PM
:lol::ahhaha:

You make a joke out of me!

:club:

76Texan
08-20-2013, 05:31 PM
Not taking the bait.

It wasn't intended for you, haha!

thunderkyss
08-20-2013, 06:56 PM
If I get what I want and we trade or cut MS after 2014, would you re-sign Yates for 2015 (if he would agree to reasonable deal + accept a back up role to Keenum or would you look elsewhere? Currently I am looking for a QB in next draft. It takes 2-3 years to develop so why not get one soon?

Before we draft the next Pat White, Colt McCoy, Brian Brohm, Chad Henne, or Drew Stanton, I want to see Tj and Case in a real game.

If I were Kubiak & I thought my future at QB is a problem worthy of a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick, I would find a way to get Tj/Case into a game. They're both talented, they're both pretty sharp, they've both had plenty of time to learn the system.

If I felt like my QB situation is fine, with a combination of Schaub, Yates, & Keenum.... I wouldn't. Yates/Keenum would get in a game if something happened to Schaub, that's it. I'm expecting to win a championship in 2013. I think Schaub is going to be a big part of that. His contract will most likely be extended through 2018, expecting him to be our starting QB through 2016 when he'll be 35.

thunderkyss
08-20-2013, 07:08 PM
Schaub's contract is untradeable $40 million left over 3 seasons. If a team wanted Schaub, they would just wait until the Texans released him, then sign him to a cap friendlier deal. Yates would certainly be picked up if released. I don't know what kind of trade value he would have. Recouping the 5th round pick invested would be the ceiling, I would think.

Yes, we are way, way, way ahead of ourselves.

Schaub's 2014 cap hit will be $14.5M (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/matt-schaub/) If we cut or trade him his cap hit would be $13.5M, we'll save $500K if we cut him.

His 2015 cap hit will be $17M, if we cut or trade him his cap hit would be $7M, we'll save $10M

His 2016 cap hit will be $19M, if we cut or trade him, his cap hit would be $3.5M


Matt Schaub becomes tradeable after the 2013 season. He becomes very tradeable after the 2014 season. Assuming there is a market for someone of his skill level...

paycheck71
08-20-2013, 07:21 PM
Schaub's 2014 cap hit will be $14.5M (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/matt-schaub/) If we cut or trade him his cap hit would be $13.5M, we'll save $500K if we cut him.

His 2015 cap hit will be $17M, if we cut or trade him his cap hit would be $7M, we'll save $10M

His 2016 cap hit will be $19M, if we cut or trade him, his cap hit would be $3.5M


Matt Schaub becomes tradeable after the 2013 season. He becomes very tradeable after the 2014 season. Assuming there is a market for someone of his skill level...

He's tradeable assuming someone is willing to take on his contract ($12.5MM in 2014 + $1MM roster bonus, $14.5MM in 2015 + $1MM roster bonus)

GuerillaBlack
08-20-2013, 07:45 PM
Before we draft the next Pat White, Colt McCoy, Brian Brohm, Chad Henne, or Drew Stanton, I want to see Tj and Case in a real game.

If I were Kubiak & I thought my future at QB is a problem worthy of a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick, I would find a way to get Tj/Case into a game. They're both talented, they're both pretty sharp, they've both had plenty of time to learn the system.

If I felt like my QB situation is fine, with a combination of Schaub, Yates, & Keenum.... I wouldn't. Yates/Keenum would get in a game if something happened to Schaub, that's it. I'm expecting to win a championship in 2013. I think Schaub is going to be a big part of that. His contract will most likely be extended through 2018, expecting him to be our starting QB through 2016 when he'll be 35.

I just don't see it. Schaub is who hs is. Schaub is 32 now and I doubt all of a sudden he will turn elite. If our running game is going and defense is good, we can win with him. Schaub won't carry this team on his back tho.

thunderkyss
08-20-2013, 08:11 PM
I just don't see it. Schaub is who hs is. Schaub is 32 now and I doubt all of a sudden he will turn elite. If our running game is going and defense is good, we can win with him. Schaub won't carry this team on his back tho.

Tom Brady hasn't won a Super Bowl since he began carrying that team, & I seriously doubt Aaron Rodgers would have carried that team to a Super Bowl without the #2 rated defense getting healthy at the right time.

Matt is who is he is & that's not the guy we saw at the end of the 2012 season. Of course he isn't the guy that led the league in passing in 2009, he's somewhere in between.

That guy that helped us win in Denver, Detroit, & yes.... Jacsonville. That guy can help us win a Super Bowl. & if he shows up for the greater part of the play offs, we'll win a Super Bowl.

DocBar
08-20-2013, 08:49 PM
Tom Brady hasn't won a Super Bowl since he began carrying that team, & I seriously doubt Aaron Rodgers would have carried that team to a Super Bowl without the #2 rated defense getting healthy at the right time.

Matt is who is he is & that's not the guy we saw at the end of the 2012 season. Of course he isn't the guy that led the league in passing in 2009, he's somewhere in between.

That guy that helped us win in Denver, Detroit, & yes.... Jacsonville. That guy can help us win a Super Bowl. & if he shows up for the greater part of the play offs, we'll win a Super Bowl. I hope so. I'm putting a few $k on the Texans this year to win it all.

DocBar
08-20-2013, 08:55 PM
I just don't see it. Schaub is who hs is. Schaub is 32 now and I doubt all of a sudden he will turn elite. If our running game is going and defense is good, we can win with him. Schaub won't carry this team on his back tho.That "elite" tag is somewhat misleading. How many people consider Eli Manning to be "elite" when most of his season totals are pretty pedestrian. Luck has as much to do with being called "elite" as straight up talent does. It took two incredibly lucky passes for Eli to win 2 SB's and be named MVP in them. Football is more team-oriented than any other team sport. You simply don't see a single player who can take a team on his back and take over a game, a series or a season very often in the NFL. I know that's just one example, but there are plenty of others to be found at different positions.

GuerillaBlack
08-21-2013, 01:00 PM
Tom Brady hasn't won a Super Bowl since he began carrying that team, & I seriously doubt Aaron Rodgers would have carried that team to a Super Bowl without the #2 rated defense getting healthy at the right time.

Matt is who is he is & that's not the guy we saw at the end of the 2012 season. Of course he isn't the guy that led the league in passing in 2009, he's somewhere in between.

That guy that helped us win in Denver, Detroit, & yes.... Jacsonville. That guy can help us win a Super Bowl. & if he shows up for the greater part of the play offs, we'll win a Super Bowl.

Brady went to two more though and was a helmet catch away from winning one of those. And Rodgers was balling. He is elite and carried that team. We saw what he did the year after that. Detroit and Jacksonville were weak teams and showed signs of the fall of the team after those games. I remember people saying that even though those games were won, they still felt like losses. Then the losses actually came. I don't think we can look to Matt to carry us against elite teams when we have to in the playoffs. Hope we are firing on our other cylinders.

b0ng
08-21-2013, 01:19 PM
Who here thinks that Yates looked really good in his time vs Miami? I do.

paycheck71
08-21-2013, 01:23 PM
Who here thinks that Yates looked really good in his time vs Miami? I do.

I think TJ looked just as good as a #3 QB vs Miami as Case did vs Minnesota as #3.

76Texan
08-21-2013, 01:28 PM
Who here thinks that Yates looked really good in his time vs Miami? I do.

All the QBs played fairly well.
None were perfect, but they were effective with the respective group they ran.

When the scheme helps the QB such that the receiver gets wide open, the QB still needs to make the correct read and a good throw, but by no mean can they be called great (see Rosenfels' reference.)

That's not to say Yates didn't have a couple of good plays by himself.
It was a solid effort by all three QBs.

The Pencil Neck
08-21-2013, 01:43 PM
Brady went to two more though and was a helmet catch away from winning one of those. And Rodgers was balling. He is elite and carried that team. We saw what he did the year after that. Detroit and Jacksonville were weak teams and showed signs of the fall of the team after those games. I remember people saying that even though those games were won, they still felt like losses. Then the losses actually came. I don't think we can look to Matt to carry us against elite teams when we have to in the playoffs. Hope we are firing on our other cylinders.

I think the goal is to build a team, like the Steelers with Roethlisberger when they won their SBs, that don't rely on the QB having to be "on". Roethlisberger had bad days and they won; Peyton is notorious for having bad days in the playoffs and he won when his team didn't rely on him. I mean, it's nice if your relatively average QB can catch fire and get on a hot streak (like Flacco, or Eli) and help drive you to the SB but there's no QB around that can win a SB without a bunch of other pieces in place. If they could, Brady and Peyton would have won every SB the last 12 years.

b0ng
08-21-2013, 02:10 PM
This is my conundrum:

After the first Minny PS game, I felt as though if Case were forced to be playing with the dregs, that he would probably be PS-stashable again this year. He looked decent, but I wasn't really convinced that the rest of the NFL would really want to take on a guy like that.

However after the second PS game against Miami has now happened I have to say that he looked just as good if not better, than when he did against Minny's garbage department. However, Yates looked pretty good against Miami's garbage so now what do you have. You have two guys with basically identical stats throughout pre-season:

Yates: 20 for 30, 235 yards, 66.7% comp, 7.8 yards/att, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 112.5 rating
Keenum: 24 for 36, 275 yards, 66.7 comp, 7.6 yards/att, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 108 rating

So now it just seems like these guys are really close or am I being some kind of Yates homer here?

76Texan
08-21-2013, 02:22 PM
This is my conundrum:

After the first Minny PS game, I felt as though if Case were forced to be playing with the dregs, that he would probably be PS-stashable again this year. He looked decent, but I wasn't really convinced that the rest of the NFL would really want to take on a guy like that.

However after the second PS game against Miami has now happened I have to say that he looked just as good if not better, than when he did against Minny's garbage department. However, Yates looked pretty good against Miami's garbage so now what do you have. You have two guys with basically identical stats throughout pre-season:

Yates: 20 for 30, 235 yards, 66.7% comp, 7.8 yards/att, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 112.5 rating
Keenum: 24 for 36, 275 yards, 66.7 comp, 7.6 yards/att, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 108 rating

So now it just seems like these guys are really close or am I being some kind of Yates homer here?
I'm not worried about it.
It's a nice problem to have.
Good competition always make you strive harder.

The situation will solve itself; I would rather look at other positions (if I was the GM and the coaches) to try to weigh the pluses and minuses of keeping this certain OLB or this certain RB and so forth.

thunderkyss
08-21-2013, 02:48 PM
This is my conundrum:

Yates: 20 for 30, 235 yards, 66.7% comp, 7.8 yards/att, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 112.5 rating
Keenum: 24 for 36, 275 yards, 66.7 comp, 7.6 yards/att, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 108 rating

So now it just seems like these guys are really close or am I being some kind of Yates homer here?

Both of them seem to be able to handle what they were given, with relative ease. However, I still think Tj took two sacks that he shouldn't have.

But I don't know how much of the playbook they are being trusted with & that's most likely how Kubiak will make up his mind. For all we know, Yates had 45% of the book while Keenum had 80%. Even though the numbers look similar, Keenum would be way ahead.

Rey
08-21-2013, 02:59 PM
Both of them seem to be able to handle what they were given, with relative ease. However, I still think Tj took two sacks that he shouldn't have.

But I don't know how much of the playbook they are being trusted with & that's most likely how Kubiak will make up his mind. For all we know, Yates had 45% of the book while Keenum had 80%. Even though the numbers look similar, Keenum would be way ahead.

Outside of the starters I'm going to say everyone is running the same plays.

You have more than a qb on the field. Yates nor keenum is out there running a bunch of advanced plays that their wr's, rb's and OL can't handle. They've both run with about the same personnel. It's not all about them when it comes to the plays that are and aren't being run.

Every year, you scale back and start jover anyways. Maybe the starters that have been here for a while can run a play that they haven't practiced since late last year, but even if Schaub is the qb with third stringers you wouldn't expect him to be running any play.

They are all more than likely running what they've worked on from this year. You expect everyone that's been here since camp to know the plays they've been working on.

badboy
08-21-2013, 03:13 PM
I wish we had this problem at every position.

legacy_gt
08-21-2013, 05:33 PM
This is my conundrum:

After the first Minny PS game, I felt as though if Case were forced to be playing with the dregs, that he would probably be PS-stashable again this year. He looked decent, but I wasn't really convinced that the rest of the NFL would really want to take on a guy like that.

However after the second PS game against Miami has now happened I have to say that he looked just as good if not better, than when he did against Minny's garbage department. However, Yates looked pretty good against Miami's garbage so now what do you have. You have two guys with basically identical stats throughout pre-season:

Yates: 20 for 30, 235 yards, 66.7% comp, 7.8 yards/att, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 112.5 rating
Keenum: 24 for 36, 275 yards, 66.7 comp, 7.6 yards/att, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 108 rating

So now it just seems like these guys are really close or am I being some kind of Yates homer here?

they may look similar on paper but Keenum has less balls batted down, Keenum also had a clutch throw on 4th, not to mention Yates has had way more experience than Case but Case shows more excitement, inspires the team better, shows quicker and faster releases, seems to have better control of the pocket and footwork.

I do want to see these last games though.

thunderkyss
08-21-2013, 05:36 PM
they may look similar on paper but Keenum has less balls batted down, Keenum also had a clutch throw on 4th, not to mention Yates has had way more experience than Case but Case shows more excitement, inspires the team better, shows quicker and faster releases, seems to have better control of the pocket and footwork.


Go Coogs right?

legacy_gt
08-21-2013, 05:47 PM
Go Coogs right?

go Texans and coogs! lol

drs23
08-21-2013, 06:04 PM
this is my conundrum:

After the first minny ps game, i felt as though if case were forced to be playing with the dregs, that he would probably be ps-stashable again this year. He looked decent, but i wasn't really convinced that the rest of the nfl would really want to take on a guy like that.

However after the second ps game against miami has now happened i have to say that he looked just as good if not better, than when he did against minny's garbage department. However, yates looked pretty good against miami's garbage so now what do you have. You have two guys with basically identical stats throughout pre-season:

Yates: 20 for 30, 235 yards, 66.7% comp, 7.8 yards/att, 2 tds, 0 ints, 112.5 rating
keenum: 24 for 36, 275 yards, 66.7 comp, 7.6 yards/att, 2 tds, 0 ints, 108 rating

so now it just seems like these guys are really close or am i being some kind of yates homer here?

duh...:D

Lucky
08-21-2013, 07:26 PM
Who here thinks that Yates looked really good in his time vs Miami? I do.
I do, as well. I've always pulled for Yates since the 2011 season where he showed a lot of guts taking the reins after the Schaub/Leinart injuries. I couldn't pass him on the depth chart from what I've seen thus far in the preseason. By the same token, I couldn't waive Keenum based upon what I've seen in the preseason. They are both 2 of the 40 players on this team, much less top 53.

I have to give a lot of credit to Kubiak. We've been waiting for Kubiak to get an opportunity to develop a young QB from the ground up. Now he has two, and he has done a heck of job with these kids. Mike Holmgren once had a reputation for developing young QBs and creating trade value with them (Hasselbeck, Brunell, Brooks to name a few). It's possible Kubiak could do the same here given the chance. I think they should draft a QB at some point every year.

9baller
08-21-2013, 07:39 PM
I do, as well. I've always pulled for Yates since the 2011 season where he showed a lot of guts taking the reins after the Schaub/Leinart injuries. I couldn't pass him on the depth chart from what I've seen thus far in the preseason. By the same token, I couldn't waive Keenum based upon what I've seen in the preseason. They are both 2 of the 40 players on this team, much less top 53.

I have to give a lot of credit to Kubiak. We've been waiting for Kubiak to get an opportunity to develop a young QB from the ground up. Now he has two, and he has done a heck of job with these kids. Mike Holmgren once had a reputation for developing young QBs and creating trade value with them (Hasselbeck, Brunell, Brooks to name a few). It's possible Kubiak could do the same here given the chance. I think they should draft a QB at some point every year.
I don't think that we should be quick to give Kubiak the credit for Keenum's development. He has shown his ability in both high school and college. Keenum is a winner with or without Kubiak's development.

thunderkyss
08-21-2013, 07:53 PM
I don't think that we should be quick to give Kubiak the credit for Keenum's development. He has shown his ability in both high school and college. Keenum is a winner with or without Kubiak's development.

Lots of winners in the college ranks can't make it in the NFL.

Lucky
08-21-2013, 08:01 PM
I don't think that we should be quick to give Kubiak the credit for Keenum's development. He has shown his ability in both high school and college. Keenum is a winner with or without Kubiak's development.
I watched a lot of Keenum in college, also. He's a baller. But if you look at his footwork and play action skills from taking the ball under center, that's all Texans WCO. He didn't have that at UH. He also never had to play against a base defense in college (that's a quote from Keenum). Clearly, Keenum has developed new skills since coming to the Texans.

I'm not suggesting that Keenum isn't sharp and couldn't have developed skills under another coach. But, he did develop these skills under Kubiak. I'm not Gary's biggest fan or a member in good standing in the Sunshine Club. But, give credit where credit is due.

eriadoc
08-21-2013, 10:35 PM
I'm not Gary's biggest fan or a member in good standing in the Sunshine Club. But, give credit where credit is due.

Yep. Whatever warts Kubiak may have, he's a good QB coach for sure.

DocBar
08-21-2013, 11:47 PM
Lots of winners in the college ranks can't make it in the NFL.There's also a growing number of UDFA's excelling in the NFL while highly drafted players are proving to be busts.

It's a matter of being flexible enough to make yourself fit or be fit. That goes for both players and coaches. A coach that is good enough to tweak his system to fit player's strengths will, generally speaking, be more successful than a coach who has to have "system players" or ideal prospects. The same goes for players who can learn to adapt to different systems. They will succeed more often than a "prototype" position player. One trick ponies get the gate more often than multiple trick ponies. AD or AF would be on the sidelines or privately employed if they couldn't pass protect. Jared Allen and Dwight Freeny would not have the accolades they have if they couldn't be serviceable against the run. They would be pass rush specialists that would be no good in non-pass rush situations.

Case Keenum has shown a very high NFL IQ and an ability to learn and be coached up. Couple that ability to learn with his natural passing ability (weak arm my ass) and you have tremendous upside. Intangibles plus talent is a hard combination to beat. Keenum is showing both in spades. I like the young man and definitely think he has a future in the NFL. Intangibles plus talent> measurable and combine stats.

The Pencil Neck
08-22-2013, 12:31 AM
There's also a growing number of UDFA's excelling in the NFL while highly drafted players are proving to be busts.


One thing to take into consideration is that the draft used to be a LOT longer. In 1973, the draft was 17 rounds long. And guys in the 17th round actually made teams and played on them. All these UDFA's would have been drafted if there were more rounds.

The players union hates the draft and would prefer for all the players to be able to come out of college and negotiate their own deals so they've been shortening the draft and shortening the draft.

So way back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's, there were a lot fewer UDFA's making teams but over the years, as there are fewer and fewer draft rounds, more and more UDFA's make teams and actually make careers.

I mean... Deacon Jones was a 14th round draft choice. Bart Starr was taken in the 17th round. Those guys would have been UDFAs.

Lucky
08-22-2013, 12:43 AM
The players union hates the draft and would prefer for all the players to be able to come out of college and negotiate their own deals so they've been shortening the draft and shortening the draft.
I kind of like the idea of eliminating the draft. Give the teams their rookie pools (the bad teams get more money), and let them negotiate with the players on an individual basis. If a team wanted to throw their entire pool at a Luck or RG3, OK. That means they're worth that $$$. You couldn't televise it, but it would place an emphasis on money management and talent identification.

BTW, Deacon Jones (186th overall (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JoneDe00.htm)) and Bart Starr (200th overall (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StarBa00.htm)) would have been drafted in the current draft system (256 picks). What you have to remember is that there were fewer teams (12-14) in the NFL in the 50's and 60's, so the rounds were much shorter.