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View Full Version : Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB


the wonger need food
07-15-2013, 06:55 PM
http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2013/07/2013-jaws-qb-countdown/


Not sure what Jaws is looking at, but there it is for your discussion...

klockWork
07-15-2013, 07:54 PM
Remember folks, this is about ranking not wanting. So let's not throw monkey's feces into the fan just yet. For me the only QB I would not want over Schaub are Sanchez and Ponder. But I have no problem where Jaws rank Schaub on the list.

Texn4life
07-15-2013, 08:15 PM
Jaws has been smoking some good stuff. Stop hanging with Snoop man.

Seriously though he made an interesting case, but its hard to agree with him after seeing him those last 6 games. Hope he proves everyone wrong.

thunderkyss
07-15-2013, 08:30 PM
http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2013/07/2013-jaws-qb-countdown/


Not sure what Jaws is looking at, but there it is for your discussion...

He pretty much laid it all out there. His words are true & hard to argue, imo..

“I like Schaub, maybe more than others. Did he struggle at times down the stretch? He did. But overall, he’s a very solid quarterback who’s shown the consistent ability to execute a well-structured and efficient offense. That puts him in my top 10.”

Not saying that I would rank Schaub at 9 (I haven't looked at all the QBs in depth, but of the ones he's got ranked behind Schaub, there are only a couple I might put ahead of him. Schaub's only deficit, again imo, is that he doesn't "take over the game" when it's time for him to take over. Whether that's because he can't or won't I don't know. It's very hard to quantify & when we see these kids running around making plays out their butts we think that's it, but it's not....... it's close.

Most people probably won't agree with me, but so far, Luck is just a younger Tony Romo. In the next few years, we'll see which way he goes, he could be the next Tom Brady, or the next Tony Romo. 10 is way too high for Luck.

Henne is "much" better than Sanchez, Ponder, & Weeden.

RG3 & Wilson are the two I question being behind Schaub. Those guys...... high QB ratings, plenty of yards, keep the chains moving... good - great accuracy... the only thing Schaub has on them is years.

Kaepernick is another one, but I'd like to see him over a full season before I rank him above Schaub.. pretty close but he had less than half the attempts as the other guys.

EllisUnit
07-15-2013, 08:32 PM
I call Bull*******, yes you heard me Bull*******

Thorn
07-15-2013, 08:46 PM
meh....I think we all realize Schaub is a better than average QB. It's how MUCH better than average we argue over.

ObsiWan
07-15-2013, 08:52 PM
He pretty much laid it all out there. His words are true & hard to argue, imo..

RG3 & Wilson are the two I question being behind Schaub. Those guys...... high QB ratings, plenty of yards, keep the chains moving... good - great accuracy... the only thing Schaub has on them is years.

Kaepernick is another one, but I'd like to see him over a full season before I rank him above Schaub.. pretty close but he had less than half the attempts as the other guys.

This is Jaws remember. He's still a big time proponent of old-school pocket passers. Schaub is definitely one of those.

AND, as he specifically said, it's also about the body of work. Year-in and year-out, Schaub has put up the numbers to be in the top ten.

But he's still got a ways to go before he cracks the top five.

Texan_Bill
07-15-2013, 08:54 PM
I like Schaub, I really do... That said, I would have him at around 12th/13th at best.

I generally like "Jaws'" takes, but let's remember he was an average (at best) QB himself. Yes, he lead the Eagles to a Super Bowl, but lost to Jim Plunkett and the Oakland Raiders.

Brisco_County
07-15-2013, 10:36 PM
Unless a QB wins a championship within the past year or two, a fan's opinion of that QB's value or rank depends squarely on what he has done lately. In the offseason, fans will rely on the second half of the season and post-season for their evaluation.

But a sports analyst will more likely consider the big picture, which is why Jaws prefaces his evaluation of Schaub with: "My normal inclination is to look at a large body of work over a long period of time."

Big picture, it seems that Schaub has the potential to be championship worthy. But in latter 2012, he seemed indecisive and rattled. My conclusion is to take the big picture evaluation for now, because I believe he was not fully recovered in 2012 from the lisfranc injury. But if he does not come out early in 2013 and prove that he's over it, then the rattled, 2012 version of Schaub will be the final phase of his legacy in Houston.

Mr teX
07-15-2013, 10:49 PM
Unless a QB wins a championship within the past year or two, a fan's opinion of that QB's value or rank depends squarely on what he has done lately. In the offseason, fans will rely on the second half of the season and post-season for their evaluation.

But a sports analyst will more likely consider the big picture, which is why Jaws prefaces his evaluation of Schaub with: "My normal inclination is to look at a large body of work over a long period of time."

Big picture, it seems that Schaub has the potential to be championship worthy. But in latter 2012, he seemed indecisive and rattled. My conclusion is to take the big picture evaluation for now, because I believe he was not fully recovered in 2012 from the lisfranc injury. But if he does not come out early in 2013 and prove that he's over it, then the rattled, 2012 version of Schaub will be the final phase of his legacy in Houston.

Ehh, people forget that the team as a whole didnt play well in those last 6 games....it wasnt just schaub. And imo, at least some of that contributed to schaub's bad individual play the latter part of the season.

Dont know if i'd put schaub at 9...but he's not any lower than 11 imo.

76Texan
07-15-2013, 11:16 PM
I like Schaub, I really do... That said, I would have him at around 12th/13th at best.

I generally like "Jaws'" takes, but let's remember he was an average (at best) QB himself. Yes, he lead the Eagles to a Super Bowl, but lost to Jim Plunkett and the Oakland Raiders.

Haha Bill,

It was just a few days ago that you said...

Never mind.:swatter:

Clamp
07-16-2013, 02:56 AM
I like Schaub, I really do... That said, I would have him at around 12th/13th at best.

I generally like "Jaws'" takes, but let's remember he was an average (at best) QB himself. Yes, he lead the Eagles to a Super Bowl, but lost to Jim Plunkett and the Oakland Raiders.

You can be average at doing something, but have the knowledge and insight to coach or analyze well. Plenty of average or even bad players have gone on to become very good coaches and anylists....though there are just as many who suck at both of those things too lol.

HOW DOES MERRILL HODGE STILL HAVE A JOB??

ObsiWan
07-16-2013, 04:16 AM
You can be average at doing something, but have the knowledge and insight to coach or analyze well. Plenty of average or even bad players have gone on to become very good coaches and anylists....though there are just as many who suck at both of those things too lol.

HOW DOES MERRILL HODGE STILL HAVE A JOB??

Some questions are just flat unanswerable...

What happens to the matter that disappears down a black hole?
How the hell does gravity really work?
Where do all those missing socks end up and do they contribute to "dark matter"?
Where are the flying cars like George Jetson had? (I want mine dammit)
Why is First Take still on the air?
Why does Merrill Hodge still have a job?

Goatcheese
07-16-2013, 07:13 AM
I would rank Schaub 11-13th based on last year alone. If he comes back fully healthy, fit and mentally strong like he was in 2011, he's top 6-8.

I don't think he was struggling too much with hidden injuries the way some people do, but his confidence and decisiveness were not in the same place they were before his injury, especially after getting beat up early in the season and (IMO) losing confidence in his line.

Worth noting, even during a down year in 2012, Schaub had the highest ESPN Total QBR in the NFL on throws between 10-19 yards.

thunderkyss
07-16-2013, 08:47 AM
AND, as he specifically said, it's also about the body of work. Year-in and year-out, Schaub has put up the numbers to be in the top ten.

But he's still got a ways to go before he cracks the top five.


Big picture, it seems that Schaub has the potential to be championship worthy. But in latter 2012, he seemed indecisive and rattled.

I think the only thing missing, is that "clutch" gene. That ability to "take over" the game.

In our final game of the season, when Danieal Manning got us into the redzone on the opening kick-off, that said a lot to me.

The first pass to Casey (easy Obsi) was on the money, should have been caught. I've seen Peyton make that type of throw, end up incomplete, the receiver knows it was his fault. He comes back to the huddle seemingly saying, "That was me, I screwed up." & Peyton would say, "Don't worry about it, we'll make up for it on this one." & the next play they'd get their TD.

More often than not, when we are in that situation, we didn't make up for it. Not in 2012, not in those games against the Packers & Patriots.

I know we put too much of the blame on the QB, but (I think) had Schaub correctly identified the LB in zone taking away the OD slant he could have located Andre earlier in his route & got him in the back of the end zone.

It sucks, & I am "faulting" Schaub for that one, but I'm not as down on him as some folks. I've got confidence that he will grow from what happened in 2012 & we're going to see Schaub emerge as a bonafide star in 2013.

Ehh, people forget that the team as a whole didnt play well in those last 6 games....it wasnt just schaub. And imo, at least some of that contributed to schaub's bad individual play the latter part of the season.

Dont know if i'd put schaub at 9...but he's not any lower than 11 imo.

In all honesty, I consider this Kubiak's best year as a HC & game manager, because we've been complaining about this team & the product they put on the field from week 1. They got booed at home week 1.

Look through the game day threads & it's hard to believe we went 12-4 playing some of the best teams in the NFL. Baltimore, Denver, Chicago, Green Bay, New England.......

Pretty impressive when you consider we struggled with the OL, running game, & were short handed at WR, RB, & TE at various points through the season.

steelbtexan
07-16-2013, 09:27 AM
Really, did Schaub watch the last 5-6 games of the season

If weak armed, immobile QB's with late season accuracy problems do to a chronic foot problem is your thing, then Schaub is your guy Jaws.

Playoffs
07-16-2013, 09:53 AM
Some questions are just flat unanswerable...

What happens to the matter that disappears down a black hole?
How the hell does gravity really work?
Where do all those missing socks end up and do they contribute to "dark matter"?
Where are the flying cars like George Jetson had? (I want mine dammit)
Why is First Take still on the air?
Why does Merrill Hodge still have a job?

These are questions that will vex mankind for years to come. Well posed, ObsiWanson. :bravo:

thunderkyss
07-16-2013, 10:04 AM
Really, did Schaub watch the last 5-6 games of the season

If weak armed, immobile QB's with late season accuracy problems do to a chronic foot problem is your thing, then Schaub is your guy Jaws.

I think we're blaming Schaub for a lot of things that was not his fault. Expecting him to do things he can not. I also think Kubiak has proven that he can do quite a bit with Schaub. As far as "late season accuracy problems" I'd need more than this past season as evidence of such. As it is, putting the football in James Casey's face mask does not point to an accuracy issue.

There was a thread before our Divisional play-off game vs the Patriots, where the consensus (more or less) agreed for us to win that game, the Defense was going to have to step it up & show up. The running game was going to have to step it up & show up. Foster was going to have to have his best game of the season, the OL was going to have to dominate the LOS & Schaub was going to have to step it up & show up.

None of that happened, but we're focused on Schaub's failure..... doesn't make sense to me.

steelbtexan
07-16-2013, 10:15 AM
I think we're blaming Schaub for a lot of things that was not his fault. Expecting him to do things he can not. I also think Kubiak has proven that he can do quite a bit with Schaub. As far as "late season accuracy problems" I'd need more than this past season as evidence of such. As it is, putting the football in James Casey's face mask does not point to an accuracy issue.

There was a thread before our Divisional play-off game vs the Patriots, where the consensus (more or less) agreed for us to win that game, the Defense was going to have to step it up & show up. The running game was going to have to step it up & show up. Foster was going to have to have his best game of the season, the OL was going to have to dominate the LOS & Schaub was going to have to step it up & show up.

None of that happened, but we're focused on Schaub's failure..... doesn't make sense to me.

Things a top 9 rated QB shuld be able to do?

True the defense needed to step up and help cover Schaub's weaknesses. They did this against the Bengals, against a great offense ike the Pats the defense needed Schaub and co to step up and help get them off of the field so they could get some rest. This didn't happen. (Not saying the defense was blameless)

If you watched the offense the last 6 games of the season and still think Gary is some kind of offensive guru and Schaub is a top 9 QB, then we will have to agree to disagree.

Goatcheese
07-16-2013, 10:45 AM
Schaub didn't need the defense to cover up anything. He needed them to not embarrass themselves. The offense put up 28 points which was all the Ravens needed to put the Pats away. Why? Because the Ravens' defense showed up and held Tom Lady to 13.

The vaunted Texans D got rolled over, punked and shamed by the same team twice in one season. They are 100% to blame for that loss.

Rey
07-16-2013, 10:48 AM
It sucks, & I am "faulting" Schaub for that one, but I'm not as down on him as some folks.

I like Schaub and I think we can do some really good things with him if most other things are going right.

But I don't believe that he is going to be the guy that lifts us past adversity.

This isn't about crunch time for me. It's about big games in general. I've got no faith that Schaub can right a ship once it's gone wrong. I don't think he's going to defy any odds when they're stacked against us.

If multiple things are going wrong, I don't expect Schaub to make multiple plays just off the strength of himself and then be able to close the deal in the end.

If guys are dropping passes, if he's getting some pressure, if the defense or special teams gives up a play I don't have faith that Schaub will make great plays to keep us in the game and win it in the end.

Now, that's not a huge knock on Schaub because there are a lot of QB's that can do that.

But for me, as a fan, it's about belief. With some other QB's I can at least envision them doing those things. I can picture some QB's making clutch accurate throws, fitting passes into tight spaces with defenders around them. I can picture guys making defenders miss scrambling out and hitting an open guy for a big completion in a big moment. I can see other guys having that alpha dog, killer instinct and everyone else on the field having that swagger because they have ultimate faith in their QB.

I don't see that with Schaub.

If I'm starting a team today, Schaub wouldn't be in the top 9 QB's that I'd grab. But I do think that in our system we can win a superbowl with him.

thunderkyss
07-16-2013, 11:01 AM
Things a top 9 rated QB shuld be able to do?

If you watched the offense the last 6 games of the season and still think... Schaub is a top 9 QB, then we will have to agree to disagree.

From another thread.

To answer my own question, 8 QBs have thrown for more than 4000 yards 3 or more times in the last 5 years. (1)Romo, (2)Eli, (3)Schaub, (4)Rodgers, & (5)Brady have done it 3 times. For Schaub, Rodgers, & Brady they did it in 3 of the last 4 years.

(6)Phillip Rivers &(7) Peyton Manning have done it in 4 of the last 5 years. (8)Drew Brees has done it for the last 5 years, he led the league in Passing 3 times in the last 5 years.

Shaub led one year, Rivers led the other.

Both (9)Matt Ryan & (10)Matthew Stafford have thrown for 4000 yards in each of the last two seasons.

Passer rating (NFL.com's passer rating) QBs with a 92 or better (250 attempts) in the last 5 years,

(4)Rodgers 5 of 5 He's a machine

(3)Schaub 4 of the last 5 years 2012 he had a passer rating of 90

(8)Brees 4 of the last 5 90.9 in 2010

(5)Brady 4 of 5 2008 83.7 on 11 att

(7)Manning 3 of 5 91.9 in 2010 & he missed the entire 2011 season.

(9)Ryan 2 of 5 Last 2 years

(11)Kaepernick 1 of 5 Only 218 att

(12)Smith 1 of 5 Only 218 att

(13)Wilson 1 of 5

(14)RG3 1 of 5

That's pretty good company once you get past all the haterade.



He definitely belongs in the top 10 conversation. In the last 5 years, only 5 guys have thrown for 4,000 yards in 3 or more seasons & had a QB rating over 92 (with more than 250 atts) in 3 or more years. I think the conversation should start there & round it out with favorites for other reasons.

It's not about potential, what you think they are going to do next year, or an over reaction to a small sample size (6 games). These guys have played the game at a high level for a long time.

Matt Ryan appears to be an up & comer as he's been on both list over the last two seasons.

thunderkyss
07-16-2013, 11:21 AM
If I'm starting a team today, Schaub wouldn't be in the top 9 QB's that I'd grab. But I do think that in our system we can win a superbowl with him.

Good post & I understand most of it.

I'm going to assume at least one of Kaepernick, RG3, Wilson, or Luck will be on your top 9.... and if you're starting a new team, that's probably the way it should be.

But that don't make them top 9 QBs.

At one time, Tony Romo & Phillip Rivers would have been on everybody's top 9 to start a franchise with. But looking back, we see that might not have been the "no-brainer" we thought it was.

Both Romo & Rivers are talented mofos..... but their decision making isn't where it needs to be on a consistent basis.

thunderkyss
07-16-2013, 11:22 AM
I wanna see Schaub do this after a TD, or a big play.

http://images.athlonsports.com/d/34088-2/JJ_Watt.jpg

Then I'll believe he can inspire his team to win.

b0ng
07-16-2013, 11:30 AM
It's about where Schaub should be. Fringe top 10 who has accomplished some big numbers on some Texans teams with terrible defenses. People on TT like to piss and moan about the QB and the HC but both are well above average compared to their peers.

steelbtexan
07-16-2013, 11:35 AM
From another thread.





He definitely belongs in the top 10 conversation. In the last 5 years, only 5 guys have thrown for 4,000 yards in 3 or more seasons & had a QB rating over 92 (with more than 250 atts) in 3 or more years. I think the conversation should start there & round it out with favorites for other reasons.

It's not about potential, what you think they are going to do next year, or an over reaction to a small sample size (6 games). These guys have played the game at a high level for a long time.

Matt Ryan appears to be an up & comer as he's been on both list over the last two seasons.

Stats = loser

Making plays to kee your team in a game and making plays at the end of games = winner. So far Schaub hasn't shown he can make those plays against playoff caliber teams in the clutch, in big games.

Porky
07-16-2013, 11:44 AM
From PFT today. It's their take on Jaws story.

Dorrell says Schaub needs to perform when it counts (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/16/dorrell-says-schaub-needs-to-perform-when-it-counts/)

In his annual quarterback rankings, ESPN’s Ron Jaworski put Matt Schaub ahead of each of the young quartet of future franchise quarterbacks: Colin Kaepernick, Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin III, and Russell Wilson.

(Would anyone take Schaub before any of those four players? Anyone? Is this thing on?)

Read more at the link provided. As usual, I think they are misreading Jaws. It's not about who you would take today, but of course, let's not worry about such things as facts.

Having said that - After last year, I would not have Schaub in the top 10, and maybe not top 15. I mean it was a tale of two Schaub's. First half, he wasn't quite himself but all in all, he was pretty good. Second half, I'm not sure I would put him in the top 25. His second half was next to awful. That won't get it done.

I think the fate of the team this year rests at RT and QB. Those two positions need to perform if the Texans are to make a deep run in the playoffs.

steelbtexan
07-16-2013, 11:50 AM
In todays NFL you've got to be able to make plays off schedule. If you want to win big. RG3/Kaep/Wilson/Rodgers/Brees/Brady/Flacco/Manning etc...

Schaub couldn't do this last yr.

Rey
07-16-2013, 11:54 AM
Good post & I understand most of it.

I'm going to assume at least one of Kaepernick, RG3, Wilson, or Luck will be on your top 9.... and if you're starting a new team, that's probably the way it should be.

But that don't make them top 9 QBs.

At one time, Tony Romo & Phillip Rivers would have been on everybody's top 9 to start a franchise with. But looking back, we see that might not have been the "no-brainer" we thought it was.

Both Romo & Rivers are talented mofos..... but their decision making isn't where it needs to be on a consistent basis.

I'd still take Romo and Rivers over Schaub in our system with our same personnel/coaching around them.

thunderkyss
07-16-2013, 11:58 AM
Stats = loser

Making plays to kee your team in a game and making plays at the end of games = winner. So far Schaub hasn't shown he can make those plays against playoff caliber teams in the clutch, in big games.

We won 13 games in 2012. Schaub has won way more of the games he started in the last 2 years than he lost, or didn't close. That also includes against play off caliber teams.

thunderkyss
07-16-2013, 12:04 PM
I'd still take Romo and Rivers over Schaub in our system with our same personnel/coaching around them.

I was about to write the same thing, concerning Romo. I'm not so high on Rivers. Romo is the type of QB I'd like to have, but I'd be hoping Kubiak can whip the crazy out of him. Maybe he can, who knows?

I do agree, there's a good chance Romo would do well in our system, with what we've got right now. It's not so likely that Schaub would be as "successful" as Romo has been in Dallas with the things he's had to deal with. If they still had Sean Peyton calling the plays I'd feel better about it, but Jason Garrett????? I'm not feeling it.

ObsiWan
07-16-2013, 12:16 PM
Schaub didn't need the defense to cover up anything. He needed them to not embarrass themselves. The offense put up 28 points which was all the Ravens needed to put the Pats away. Why? Because the Ravens' defense showed up and held Tom Lady to 13.

The vaunted Texans D got rolled over, punked and shamed by the same team twice in one season. They are 100% to blame for that loss.

Excellent point.

I've raised this point many times in various Schaub sucks discussions only to have it ignored by the Anti-Schaub crowd.

But thou shall NOT cast dispersions on Saint Wade lest ye be termed a blasphemer.

eriadoc
07-16-2013, 12:24 PM
I actually think we're in one of the best QB eras ever. The middle of the pack QBs these days are pretty good, to be honest. I mean, think about guys like Flacco, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Ryan, EManning, etc. Those guys have not had a career like PManning or Brady or Brees, or even Rodgers, but they have all had years that could be considered great. Then you have the young guns putting up seasons that lead you to believe they could be as good or better than those guys.

There is honestly more than half the league's starting QBs I'd take over Matt Schaub. Some have already proven to be better and some are trending to be better. We know what we have in Schaub, and he just doesn't have it. He's good enough to be a QB on a Super Bowl team, but he's not good enough to haul a team along to the Super Bowl.

In order of tier, not player:
Brees
Brady
PManning
Rodgers

EManning
Roethlisberger
Flacco
Ryan
Rivers
Romo
Cutler
Stafford
(Wilson)
(Luck)
(RGIII)
(Newton)
(Kaepernick)

Schaub
a few others

Gabbert and his caliber

() - guys I'd take over Schaub because of upside, but not necessarily because they are better today (they might be, though)

eriadoc
07-16-2013, 12:26 PM
Schaub didn't need the defense to cover up anything. He needed them to not embarrass themselves. The offense put up 28 points which was all the Ravens needed to put the Pats away. Why? Because the Ravens' defense showed up and held Tom Lady to 13.

The vaunted Texans D got rolled over, punked and shamed by the same team twice in one season. They are 100% to blame for that loss.

I agree with you, but then there are still people who blame Moon for 35-3. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the defense should have held a 35-3 lead even if Moon had been sent home after the 5th TD, but you'll never convince some people.

Thorn
07-16-2013, 12:30 PM
I wanna see Schaub do this after a TD, or a big play.

http://images.athlonsports.com/d/34088-2/JJ_Watt.jpg

Then I'll believe he can inspire his team to win.

Carefull now. You don't want Schaub to strain anything.

eriadoc
07-16-2013, 01:03 PM
LINK (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000218024/article/matt-schaub-must-excel-at-crunch-time-qbs-coach-says)

The Houston Texans' season has ended at the hands of the AFC's Super Bowl representative in each of the past two seasons. If they are going to get over the hump this season, they need quarterback Matt Schaub to stand toe-to-toe with the likes of Tom Brady and Joe Flacco.

"We know that from our standpoint there was definitely stuff that we left on the table last year," quarterbacks coach Karl Dorrell said via the Texans' official website Monday.

He regressed in a major way down the stretch last season, tossing just four touchdowns in his last six games. By the time he was severely outplayed by Brady in the AFC Divisional Round blowout loss, Schaub was nothing more than a glorified game manager.

It's no coincidence that Dorrell cited Schaub's need for improvement in crunch time. The eight-year veteran has just 12 game-winning drives under his belt. To put that number in perspective, Andrew Luck led the Indianapolis Colts on seven game-winning drives as a rookie.

2012Champs
07-16-2013, 01:07 PM
I like the game winning drive stats vs Luck when they serve very little if any purpose

thunderkyss
07-16-2013, 01:14 PM
In order of tier, not player:
Brees
Brady
PManning
Rodgers

EManning
Roethlisberger
Flacco
Ryan
Rivers
Romo
Cutler
Stafford
(Wilson)
(Luck)
(RGIII)
(Newton)
(Kaepernick)

Schaub
a few others

Gabbert and his caliber

() - guys I'd take over Schaub because of upside, but not necessarily because they are better today (they might be, though)

You take away their defense & their running game & Eli, Ben, Flacco, Ryan, & Rivers ain't done anything Schaub hasn't. Hard for me to put those guys in a tier higher than Schaub. We saw it before Flacco got Torry Smith & Bolden. We saw it in Atlanta before Ryan had Roddy & Julio. We saw it in San Diego when Rivers lost Vincent, Merriman, Olshansky, & we're seeing it in Pittsburgh as that defense continues to get older.

Those guys do things in different ways than Schaub has, but at the end of the day he does his job as well as if not better than those guys. He just hasn't had the help they've had to win games & be in the play offs.

I love Andre, but he hasn't stepped up in the clutch way Hines Ward has. I love Arian, but he hasn't carried this team the way the Bus carried Pittsburgh. & we all know KDub isn't a Torry Smith or Julio Jones.

The only thing separating Schaub from those top tier guys, is the wins... & wins, are a team accomplishment, not a QB accomplishment. Championships are an organization accomplishment, not a QB accomplishment. Put Tom Brady on this team over the last 5 years I guarantee we wouldn't have won a Super Bowl.....


After thinking about that, that may not be true, our organization now is about as close to a championship org as you can get without winning a championship & a Tom Brady may be the difference. But before Wade, before Watt, Tom Brady wouldn't have been enough.

Playoffs
07-16-2013, 01:32 PM
...The offense put up 28 points which was all the Ravens needed to put the Pats away. Why? Because the Ravens' defense showed up and held Tom Lady to 13.

The vaunted Texans D got rolled over, punked and shamed by the same team twice in one season. They are 100% to blame for that loss.

Excellent point.

I've raised this point many times in various Schaub sucks discussions only to have it ignored by the Anti-Schaub crowd.

But thou shall NOT cast dispersions on Saint Wade lest ye be termed a blasphemer.

True dat, GC & OW. 41 is too many.

76Texan
07-16-2013, 02:22 PM
Peyton Manning's play-offs record is 9-11; Schaub's is 1-1

If Peyton is clutch, what does that make Schaub? :kitten:

eriadoc
07-16-2013, 02:29 PM
If Peyton is clutch, what does that make Schaub? :kitten:

Not sure anyone's ever argued that Peyton was clutch. The knock on him since his college days has been that he isn't clutch. He finally broke through with a Super Bowl, so people don't harp on it as much, but I also don't hear this effusive praise of his clutch play, either. His brother, on the other hand, seems to have the clutch moniker so far.

76Texan
07-16-2013, 02:40 PM
Not sure anyone's ever argued that Peyton was clutch. The knock on him since his college days has been that he isn't clutch. He finally broke through with a Super Bowl, so people don't harp on it as much, but I also don't hear this effusive praise of his clutch play, either. His brother, on the other hand, seems to have the clutch moniker so far.

I wouldn't call a 6-5 play-offs records as clutch either, especially when you look at the scoreboard. Look at the Giants defense to see how many points they allowed in all those eleven games.

The most they ever allowed was 23 points.

If you tell me the Texans D can perform as well as the Giants Defense, I'll say if Schaub fails then he's garbage.

eriadoc
07-16-2013, 02:47 PM
I wouldn't call a 6-5 play-offs records as clutch either ...

I'm not sure any record has anything to do with "clutch". Clutch is a very nebulous term used to describe the seeming ability to come up big when it matters most, a la the key passes that EManning has managed to pull off when it mattered most. But if you want to get into a dissection of what clutch is or isn't, it also doesn't take into account the crappy play that a QB may have done in order to let his team fall behind. If the defense gives up 28 points and the team is losing 28-3, that's not all on the defense. If it was 28-24, it's a different story.

So in the end, clutch is kind of a silly argument altogether. But for whatever that argument's worth, I don't see a lot of people labeling Peyton as clutch. So I refute your straw man.

steelbtexan
07-16-2013, 02:49 PM
We won 13 games in 2012. Schaub has won way more of the games he started in the last 2 years than he lost, or didn't close. That also includes against play off caliber teams.

How many big games has he won?

Games that would clinch HFA?

Playoff games?

This yr is the yr that we will learn alot about Schaub and his health. (1st place schedule, NFC West) playing against really good/great defenses. I'm just hoping Schaub's foot holds out for a full season, I've got my doubts

2012Champs
07-16-2013, 02:53 PM
How many big games has he won?

Games that would clinch HFA?

Playoff games?

This yr is the yr that we will learn alot about Schaub and his health. (1st place schedule, NFC West) playing against really good/great defenses. I'm just hoping Schaub's foot holds out for a full season, I've got my doubts



How many opportunities has he had in each area you are asking about?

deucetx
07-16-2013, 02:54 PM
You take away their defense & their running game & Eli, Ben, Flacco, Ryan, & Rivers ain't done anything Schaub hasn't. Hard for me to put those guys in a tier higher than Schaub.

Have to disagree on quote and post a bit. What they have done that he hasn't is have clutch moments in crucial situations/games. Schaub has yet to have those moments at this point (kind of hard when your team is getting waxed each year til now). He still has the opportunity but saying he has done what they have is just a stretch imo (some of them that is). Schaub is the type that needs things to go a certain way to be successful in prime situations. He's a system guy. Not a bad thing but some of those you just named can make plays when it breaks down.

You say take away running game and defense...well when Eli won the Superbowl he had one of the least productive running games in the league (dead last) and a bad defense (27th yards, 25th scoring). He carried that team. Luckily, the defense rose their game in the playoffs but it was Eli carrying it through the year. Can we say that Schaub can do that?

The 4,000 yard seasons are nice but having moments you pull off the play despite the odds in crucial games are even bigger. Til Schaub can do that, he will not be in the category with guys who actually have done it on the field. Just like I wouldn't put Stafford up there despite having a 5k season one darn near it again. He hasn't shown the ability to make that crucial play. Well...other than heaving it up and saying 'Hey, Calvin! Bail me out!'

I also can't get on the 'Brady wouldn't have won a Bowl here' train either. The difference of a Brady to a Schaub is Brady elevates the play of those around him. He has had medicore receivers most of his years but made it work. He has had some years with average or bottom half defenses but found his success. He has had no name running backs but made it work. So there's no real way to guarantee what Brady would or wouldn't do.

As for my opinion on the Jaws thing...eh. Not big on ranking. All I care about is he good enough to win a Superbowl and in that regard I think he is. Most here seem to think you either have to hate him or love him but honestly I don't hold that stance. I think he is capable and solid. He's not great and I'm not going to put on Bulls colored glasses to think so. Not going to exaggerate his short comings either. If Flacco can put it together to get it done I see no reason Schaub can't. He just needs things to fall in line more than some.

Rey
07-16-2013, 02:56 PM
I was about to write the same thing, concerning Romo. I'm not so high on Rivers. Romo is the type of QB I'd like to have, but I'd be hoping Kubiak can whip the crazy out of him. Maybe he can, who knows?

I think part of Romo's problem is that it's a freak show in Dallas. We've seen it before where guys will do better in systems with more structure and less lee way for foolishness.

Look how bad Alex Smith was under all those bad coaches he had when it was chaos around there. Then Harbaugh comes in and implements a real system and gets the best out of the guy. I think certain coaches get more out of players (or specific positions). I think Kubiak has that going with his QB's.

steelbtexan
07-16-2013, 03:24 PM
How many opportunities has he had in each area you are asking about?

He had 3 chances to clinch HFA last yr. Schaub took last yrs team as far as Yates did the yr before. This speaks volumes to me.

in 2009 despite one of the easiest schedules ever made he couldn't get the team over the hump and into the playoffs like the elite QB's do.

I like Schaub, but I believe he's damaged goods, who will do well to make it though the season, much less play at a high level late in the season. Not that any of this is his fault.

Thorn
07-16-2013, 03:28 PM
Peyton Manning's play-offs record is 9-11; Schaub's is 1-1

If Peyton is clutch, what does that make Schaub? :kitten:

A playoff newbie.

Mr teX
07-16-2013, 03:53 PM
He had 3 chances to clinch HFA last yr. Schaub took last yrs team as far as Yates did the yr before. This speaks volumes to me.

in 2009 despite one of the easiest schedules ever made he couldn't get the team over the hump and into the playoffs like the elite QB's do.

I like Schaub, but I believe he's damaged goods, who will do well to make it though the season, much less play at a high level late in the season. Not that any of this is his fault.

2009 you say :kitten:?

The year that we had a trio of Steve Slaton, Chris Brown and Ryan Moats taking the lion share of touches at RB for a whopping avg. of 3.5 ypc?

The year we had Jacque Reeves, Eugene Wilson and Bernard Pollard all starting in our secondary....along with a rookie named Glover Quinn?

The year Kris Brown himself screwed us out of at least 2 wins with his inept kicking?

I also seem to recall some scrub named Amobi Okoye still starting at DT and routinely getting pancaked in the interior of our d-line as well:wadepalm:.

save for the next year where our defense bottomed out, You might want to revise your statement and say that our "easy" schedule was the only reason our defense wasn't the worst in the league that year/ever and that if not for Schaub and the passing offense, we don't even come as close as we did to making the playoffs.

76Texan
07-16-2013, 04:04 PM
I'm not sure any record has anything to do with "clutch". Clutch is a very nebulous term used to describe the seeming ability to come up big when it matters most, a la the key passes that EManning has managed to pull off when it mattered most. But if you want to get into a dissection of what clutch is or isn't, it also doesn't take into account the crappy play that a QB may have done in order to let his team fall behind. If the defense gives up 28 points and the team is losing 28-3, that's not all on the defense. If it was 28-24, it's a different story.

So in the end, clutch is kind of a silly argument altogether. But for whatever that argument's worth, I don't see a lot of people labeling Peyton as clutch. So I refute your straw man.

It really is not a straw man argument, eriadoc.

What I merely like to point out (or make note of) is that it's still a team game.
It's not like basketball, and even in basketball, it's not easy to find that many clutch players.

In football, you need your ST not to suck and a pretty decent defense (or very good) to win big.
It is a common equation for the teams that won the SB.

When your ST and your D can allow the O with chances, they (the O) have a better chance to pull it off.

You need all 3 phases to go deep into the play-offs; that is the norm.
A QB that you pay a lot for reduces the average for you to field other positions on the team.

All I'm saying is that the Texans D underperformed last year due to injuries; Schaub was supposed to performed as a 8-12 ranked QB in the league; he fell a bit short on that end, but only because the D and the special team did not play up to their part.

If you remember, I rated Schaub somewhere in the 11-15th category.

To have a better indication of how good a QB is, we need to keep the other variables somewhat in constant (the combination of the D and the ST).

2012Champs
07-16-2013, 04:21 PM
He had 3 chances to clinch HFA last yr. Schaub took last yrs team as far as Yates did the yr before. This speaks volumes to me.


Speaks volumes that you credit Yates for a lot of work the Schaub did


in 2009 despite one of the easiest schedules ever made he couldn't get the team over the hump and into the playoffs like the elite QB's do.


Again thats on Schaub?




I like Schaub, but I believe he's damaged goods, who will do well to make it though the season, much less play at a high level late in the season. Not that any of this is his fault.




Id like to see him perform better late as well

steelbtexan
07-16-2013, 08:35 PM
It really is not a straw man argument, eriadoc.

What I merely like to point out (or make note of) is that it's still a team game.
It's not like basketball, and even in basketball, it's not easy to find that many clutch players.

In football, you need your ST not to suck and a pretty decent defense (or very good) to win big.
It is a common equation for the teams that won the SB.

When your ST and your D can allow the O with chances, they (the O) have a better chance to pull it off.

You need all 3 phases to go deep into the play-offs; that is the norm.
A QB that you pay a lot for reduces the average for you to field other positions on the team.

All I'm saying is that the Texans D underperformed last year due to injuries; Schaub was supposed to performed as a 8-12 ranked QB in the league; he fell a bit short on that end, but only because the D and the special team did not play up to their part.

If you remember, I rated Schaub somewhere in the 11-15th category.

To have a better indication of how good a QB is, we need to keep the other variables somewhat in constant (the combination of the D and the ST).

The Texans offense scored 1 td in 16 qtrs at the end of the yr, but the only reason the Texans fell short of their goals was because of the offense. LOL

Maybe just maybe the offense was very poor. Did you notice that the Texans selecte 2 WR's/2 OT's, one high and one low and a TE in this yrs draft. Appartently Gary thought the offense was a big part of the problem judging by how the Texans drafted this past April.

thunderkyss
07-16-2013, 08:51 PM
Have to disagree on quote and post a bit.


Good post.

What they have done that he hasn't is have clutch moments in crucial situations/games. Schaub has yet to have those moments at this point (kind of hard when your team is getting waxed each year til now). He still has the opportunity but saying he has done what they have is just a stretch imo (some of them that is). Schaub is the type that needs things to go a certain way to be successful in prime situations. He's a system guy. Not a bad thing but some of those you just named can make plays when it breaks down.


The Giants were lucky to get into the play-offs @ 9-7.... Eli was clutch because he won that last game against the Cowboys...

Schaub got his team to 9-7, doesn't mean much because we weren't going to win our division with 9-7, much less a wild-card.

It's all relative. It's all about opportunity. If we got into the play offs in 2009, Schaub may have surprised us all. But he didn't. I'm not saying we should go on the "ifs" just understand opportunities are presented & remembered in all sorts of context.



You say take away running game and defense...well when Eli won the Superbowl he had one of the least productive running games in the league (dead last) and a bad defense (27th yards, 25th scoring). He carried that team. Luckily, the defense rose their game in the playoffs but it was Eli carrying it through the year. Can we say that Schaub can do that?


Again, if Brian Cushing would have come back in time for the play offs we'd have seen a different defense than the one that fell off at the end of last season, just like the Giants saw a different defense when JPP & Kiwanuka got back into the line-up.

Eli did a good job to get his team to 9-7 winning his division... but they were 9-7. If the Cowboys or the Eagles were as good as the 2009 Colts, nobody would be talking about the 2011 Giants.


The 4,000 yard seasons are nice but having moments you pull off the play despite the odds in crucial games are even bigger. Til Schaub can do that, he will not be in the category with guys who actually have done it on the field. Just like I wouldn't put Stafford up there despite having a 5k season one darn near it again. He hasn't shown the ability to make that crucial play. Well...other than heaving it up and saying 'Hey, Calvin! Bail me out!'

He's also got Romo, Rivers, Cutler, RG3, Russell Wilson & Cam Newton in that tier....

What am I missing? What have they done?

I also can't get on the 'Brady wouldn't have won a Bowl here' train either. The difference of a Brady to a Schaub is Brady elevates the play of those around him. He has had medicore receivers most of his years but made it work. He has had some years with average or bottom half defenses but found his success. He has had no name running backs but made it work. So there's no real way to guarantee what Brady would or wouldn't do.


Agree to disagree. But we'll get to that later, in another thread maybe.


As for my opinion on the Jaws thing...eh. Not big on ranking. All I care about is he good enough to win a Superbowl and in that regard I think he is. Most here seem to think you either have to hate him or love him but honestly I don't hold that stance. I think he is capable and solid. He's not great and I'm not going to put on Bulls colored glasses to think so. Not going to exaggerate his short comings either. If Flacco can put it together to get it done I see no reason Schaub can't. He just needs things to fall in line more than some.

I'm right there with you. If the general feeling was that Schaub is elite, I'd argue against it. Right now, they're arguing that Schaub is garbage.... I can't get behind that.

thunderkyss
07-16-2013, 08:57 PM
He had 3 chances to clinch HFA last yr. Schaub took last yrs team as far as Yates did the yr before. This speaks volumes to me.

in 2009 despite one of the easiest schedules ever made he couldn't get the team over the hump and into the playoffs like the elite QB's do.

I like Schaub, but I believe he's damaged goods, who will do well to make it though the season, much less play at a high level late in the season. Not that any of this is his fault.

Our schedules have been a lot easier since 2009. 2010 was the last time we played a .500 or better schedule.

Focusing on failing to clinch homefield advantage is focusing on the negatives. Overall, the Texans had a wonderful season, lots of accomplishments.

No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. He's not clutch, not Brady.... but he's not hot garbage either. He didn't win those games for us, but he didn't throw them away either.

There's a difference.

ATXtexanfan
07-16-2013, 08:57 PM
Schaub at nine. I guess i can buy that that. But the top eight better exponentially ( is that how you spell that ). Also that puts him in the divisional round of playoffs at best. His better days past him

GuerillaBlack
07-16-2013, 09:33 PM
Schaub is my biggest worry for this season. He is definitely not a top ten QB. He is around 13/14 and should be pushed lower if the young QBs continue progressing.

DX-TEX
07-16-2013, 11:17 PM
Peyton Manning's play-offs record is 9-11; Schaub's is 1-1

If Peyton is clutch, what does that make Schaub? :kitten:

Gomer Pyle?

TEXANRED
07-16-2013, 11:26 PM
http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2013/07/2013-jaws-qb-countdown/


Not sure what Jaws is looking at, but there it is for your discussion...

Jaws played in the era where hitting the qb was legal and concussions weren't recognized.

TexansFTW
07-17-2013, 09:33 AM
I read a lot of the same stuff in these threads and it always ties back to misguided hate. A lot of you hate Schaub and want him removed, what's your solution?

Go get Alex Smith at the end of the season? I promise you Schaub is better.

Let TJ Yates run the show? LOL, I promise that dude sucks. When his rookie contract is up he will likely be out of the NFL if he can't find a team that keeps 3 QBs on the 53 man roster.

Go draft RusWil in the 3rd? I promise a lot of teams have tried for years and haven't done it yet. And let's not give these rookies the Lombardi trophy just yet. I want to see how all of them do in their 2nd year (that includes RG3 and Luck). I've got a lot of money with friends riding on Seahawks missing playoffs.

Go use a 1st round pick on a QB when we have a 2 year window to win a Super Bowl? This leads to a lifetime of mediocrity not addressing key positions when it's time to strike.

Jaws knows football quarterbacks better than most. Jaws stood on top of his desk yelling about how Flacco could make "all the throws" and everyone else just laughed at him and called him an idiot. 1 Super Bowl MVP later people aren't laughing anymore.

HOU-TEX
07-17-2013, 09:55 AM
I read a lot of the same stuff in these threads and it always ties back to misguided hate. A lot of you hate Schaub and want him removed, what's your solution?

Go get Alex Smith at the end of the season? I promise you Schaub is better.

Let TJ Yates run the show? LOL, I promise that dude sucks. When his rookie contract is up he will likely be out of the NFL if he can't find a team that keeps 3 QBs on the 53 man roster.

Go draft RusWil in the 3rd? I promise a lot of teams have tried for years and haven't done it yet. And let's not give these rookies the Lombardi trophy just yet. I want to see how all of them do in their 2nd year (that includes RG3 and Luck). I've got a lot of money with friends riding on Seahawks missing playoffs.

Go use a 1st round pick on a QB when we have a 2 year window to win a Super Bowl? This leads to a lifetime of mediocrity not addressing key positions when it's time to strike.

Jaws knows football quarterbacks better than most. Jaws stood on top of his desk yelling about how Flacco could make "all the throws" and everyone else just laughed at him and called him an idiot. 1 Super Bowl MVP later people aren't laughing anymore.

You should change your user name to 'The Promisor'

Is Schaub a top 10 QB? Depends on who you ask

Can Schaub get us to the SB? Depends on who you ask

Does Schaub have a strong arm? Depends on who you ask

Is Schaub an "elite" QB? Depends on who you ask

See where I'm going here? Rankings = Everyone has theirs and they mean absolutely nothing to me except maybe a smidgeon of entertainment

TexansFTW
07-17-2013, 11:52 AM
You should change your user name to 'The Promisor'

Is Schaub a top 10 QB? Depends on who you ask

Can Schaub get us to the SB? Depends on who you ask

Does Schaub have a strong arm? Depends on who you ask

Is Schaub an "elite" QB? Depends on who you ask

See where I'm going here? Rankings = Everyone has theirs and they mean absolutely nothing to me except maybe a smidgeon of entertainment

What are you doing here? What is the function of a message board? You can ask similar questions like the ones you just asked on every opinion based topic ever seen on a message board. Thanks for your input though.

I asked for solutions. You changed the direction of the argument in an attempt to mock me. Let's go back 2 posts.... What is your solution?

I think this year everyone will see that Schaub is truly the 9th ranked QB. It's not Schaub's fault Casey and Dre were dropping TDs down the stretch. It's not his fault that defenses had our number down the stretch last year (overload the left side of the line, force Foster to the right, double Andre and have a solid safety cover up OD).

Kevin Walter was absolutely worthless. Everyone talks about his game changing blocking, but the dude was rated below average by Pro Football Focus at blocking and couldn't separate from a wet paper sack let alone an NFL corner.

This is the year. A Schaub led Texan team that can avoid big injuries by our key players and we are AFC Championship game or bust IMO. #9 is about to take us to the dance, I'll bet on that.

thunderkyss
07-17-2013, 12:12 PM
Say that reminds me. Remember when San Diego was a perennial play-off team? You know, for a good while there they had no competition in the division. They had LT & Sproles, & Gates, & Merriman, & Wade, & Olshansky & they had a pretty good club.

Never got to the Super Bowl though. It was always one reason or another.

When I see the Schaub hate I think people are thinkinig about those Chargers. Where Phillip Rivers was good, but he wasn't good enough to overcome the mishaps or what not that an NFL team will encounter as they make a run for a Championship.

Looking back it's hard to argue. Rivers had all the stats, his team would win a game in the play offs.... but that was about it.

I get that that could very well be the case. I understand if you believe in your heart of hearts that is the case, then now is the time to find your QB of the future.

Personally I always felt that if you see a guy that you think has what it takes & you can get him without selling your future, go for it. Unless I've got Tom Brady or Peyton Manning I'm not too worried about hurting anyone's feelings (maybe I'd add Brees & Rodgers to that list as well).

But it doesn't upset me that Kubiak didn't feel that Kaepernick or Wilson was that guy, the guy to take that chance on.... It also wouldn't surprise me if he thinks Yates or Keenum is that guy.

Rey
07-17-2013, 12:21 PM
Say that reminds me. Remember when San Diego was a perennial play-off team? You know, for a good while there they had no competition in the division. They had LT & Sproles, & Gates, & Merriman, & Wade, & Olshansky & they had a pretty good club.

Never got to the Super Bowl though. It was always one reason or another.


I've brought up the Chargers before...But not in relation to Schaub, but the team as a whole.

You have to be able to strike while the iron is hot.

I know Baltimore got some good fortune and got into the SB last year, but they still played really good football on top of all the luck they had.

I don't care to look back in ten years and remember that Schaub put up some good numbers and the team as a whole was good but could never get over the hump. That means zilch to me.

I want a superbowl. And I feel that in football, you should be able to put together a squad good enough to at least make it there once every 10-15 years on average. If you aren't doing that in the NFL then I don't think you'redoing it right. 1 trip to the superbowl every 10-15 years on average is not a lot to ask of for a good organization I don't think.

Mr teX
07-17-2013, 12:23 PM
Schaub is my biggest worry for this season. He is definitely not a top ten QB. He is around 13/14 and should be pushed lower if the young QBs continue progressing.

About those young qbs...

1's coming off major knee surgery....

1 threw a buttload of ints and had a buttload fumbles

1 has only played a little over half a season...

All of these guys like to run / have to run and take way too many hits.

People need to slow down annointing these guys as better than schaub. Teams now have a year of film on them, and across the board their schedules will be tougher seeing as they all took their teams to the playoffs last year. Wouldn't be surprised if none of these guys made it through the season next year, or they all made little to no progress from their rookie years.

The only one of these guys that seemingly doesnt have any negatives or skepticism attached to them is russell wilson....Dude is smart when he runs and doesnt take hits like the others above...

76Texan
07-17-2013, 12:25 PM
Jaws played in the era where hitting the qb was legal and concussions weren't recognized.

Many reps for that.
I must admit that I was a bit harsh on Warren Moon.

2012Champs
07-17-2013, 12:33 PM
You should change your user name to 'The Promisor'

Is Schaub a top 10 QB? Depends on who you ask

Can Schaub get us to the SB? Depends on who you ask

Does Schaub have a strong arm? Depends on who you ask

Is Schaub an "elite" QB? Depends on who you ask

See where I'm going here? Rankings = Everyone has theirs and they mean absolutely nothing to me except maybe a smidgeon of entertainment


What does that have to do with any "promise" you bolded? He said Schaub is better than Alex, TJ or a 3rd round pick. As he asked, what is your solution?

Rey
07-17-2013, 12:38 PM
The solution is to grab cheap guys and groom them until you find one that is better. Or wait until you are in position to draft one that you think is better. Or be aggressive and trade up for one.

Another possible solution would have been to let him walk and chase after Peyton Manning.

Hard to have any possible solution when you aren't actively exploring options.

HOU-TEX
07-17-2013, 12:41 PM
What does that have to do with any "promise" you bolded? He said Schaub is better than Alex, TJ or a 3rd round pick. As he asked, what is your solution?

My post was more sarcasm than worthy

Solution? There is no solution. Schaub is our QB whether we like him or not.

I was goofin with him for the number of "I promise" used. Geesh, lighten up peeps

76Texan
07-17-2013, 12:50 PM
The Texans offense scored 1 td in 16 qtrs at the end of the yr, but the only reason the Texans fell short of their goals was because of the offense. LOL

Maybe just maybe the offense was very poor. Did you notice that the Texans selecte 2 WR's/2 OT's, one high and one low and a TE in this yrs draft. Appartently Gary thought the offense was a big part of the problem judging by how the Texans drafted this past April.

You answer your own question here, SteelB (it was a pleasure to work with you and others in the Mock Draft Forum).

The Texans have given Wade plenty of toys to play with through the draft and FA, wouldn't you say?

Did that provide Schaub with the help he needed last year?
You tell me.
(Love you man BTW).

Mr teX
07-17-2013, 12:50 PM
The solution is to grab cheap guys and groom them until you find one that is better. Or wait until you are in position to draft one that you think is better. Or be aggressive and trade up for one.

Another possible solution would have been to let him walk and chase after Peyton Manning.

Hard to have any possible solution when you aren't actively exploring options.

Guys better than schaub at qb arent coming out on the FA market...the manning situation was the exception not the rule..

Its all about the draft......

CloakNNNdagger
07-17-2013, 12:50 PM
Yesterday we had Texans quarterbacks coach Karl Dorrell saying Schaub needs to be a better “crunch time” player. Today Texans General Manager Rick Smith appeared on NFL AM and said that Schaub has to play better in the biggest games, against the best teams.

“Quarterbacks are judged by championships,” Smith said. “That’s just a function of the position. That’s just the reality. And he understands that. He knows that. And he does have to play better in those situations for us to take our team to the next level.”

Smith wasn’t necessarily knocking Schaub — he also referred to Schaub as “tremendously successful” — but he was making a point about where the Texans are as a franchise right now, and where they’re trying to go. A 12-4 record and a playoff win is good, but it’s not good enough for Smith. And if Schaub can’t help the Texans go beyond that this year, Smith may be looking for a new quarterback next year.link (Yesterday we had Texans quarterbacks coach Karl Dorrell saying Schaub needs to be a better “crunch time” player. Today Texans General Manager Rick Smith appeared on NFL AM and said that Schaub has to play better in the biggest games, against the best teams. “Quarterbacks are judged by championships,” Smith said. “That’s just a function of the position. That’s just the reality. And he understands that. He knows that. And he does have to play better in those situations for us to take our team to the next level.” Smith wasn’t necessarily knocking Schaub — he also referred to Schaub as “tremendously successful” — but he was making a point about where the Texans are as a franchise right now, and where they’re trying to go. A 12-4 record and a playoff win is good, but it’s not good enough for Smith. And if Schaub can’t help the Texans go beyond that this year, Smith may be looking for a new quarterback next year.)

Mr teX
07-17-2013, 12:54 PM
link (Yesterday we had Texans quarterbacks coach Karl Dorrell saying Schaub needs to be a better “crunch time” player. Today Texans General Manager Rick Smith appeared on NFL AM and said that Schaub has to play better in the biggest games, against the best teams. “Quarterbacks are judged by championships,” Smith said. “That’s just a function of the position. That’s just the reality. And he understands that. He knows that. And he does have to play better in those situations for us to take our team to the next level.” Smith wasn’t necessarily knocking Schaub — he also referred to Schaub as “tremendously successful” — but he was making a point about where the Texans are as a franchise right now, and where they’re trying to go. A 12-4 record and a playoff win is good, but it’s not good enough for Smith. And if Schaub can’t help the Texans go beyond that this year, Smith may be looking for a new quarterback next year.)

I think that much is clear to everyone....which is why they went offense in the 1st...

thunderkyss
07-17-2013, 01:05 PM
I know Baltimore got some good fortune and got into the SB last year, but they still played really good football on top of all the luck they had.


When it counted they played some really good football. They played some stinkers in 2012 as well.


I don't care to look back in ten years and remember that Schaub put up some good numbers and the team as a whole was good but could never get over the hump. That means zilch to me.


I feel ya.


I want a superbowl. And I feel that in football, you should be able to put together a squad good enough to at least make it there once every 10-15 years on average. If you aren't doing that in the NFL then I don't think you'redoing it right. 1 trip to the superbowl every 10-15 years on average is not a lot to ask of for a good organization I don't think.

Sounds reasonable.

thunderkyss
07-17-2013, 01:09 PM
Guys better than schaub at qb arent coming out on the FA market...the manning situation was the exception not the rule..


Manning was a gamble. If I've got Tebow & Orton on my roster it's a gamble I take.

If I've got Schaub or Phillip Rivers.... I don't.

b0ng
07-17-2013, 01:11 PM
The solution is to grab cheap guys and groom them until you find one that is better. Or wait until you are in position to draft one that you think is better. Or be aggressive and trade up for one.

Another possible solution would have been to let him walk and chase after Peyton Manning.

Hard to have any possible solution when you aren't actively exploring options.

I'm pretty sure finding guys who are "cheap" to play the QB spot is not a good idea at all. The Texans are probably looking for Schaub's replacement, but as 90% of the NFL has shown us, finding a great QB is no small task at all. I mean look at who the Chiefs have had playing QB for the last 20 years, or the Bears, or the Lions or the Browns or one of the other myriad of teams who draft, trade for, and start terrible QB's.

Kubiak got us a decent QB after the David Carr experience, I'll trust him to try to do the same thing after Schaub.

thunderkyss
07-17-2013, 01:13 PM
Yesterday we had Texans quarterbacks coach Karl Dorrell saying Schaub needs to be a better “crunch time” player. Today Texans General Manager Rick Smith appeared on NFL AM and said that Schaub has to play better in the biggest games, against the best teams.




I found it interesting how many times Kubiak said that Arian seemed to play better on the bigger stages.

I've heard him say the same thing about Andre.

I wondered, "If I were Matt Schaub & my coach said this about my RB & my WR... & we keep failing in those situations...


is he trying to tell me something?"

TexansFTW
07-17-2013, 01:24 PM
Schaub does need to step up in big games. He isn't blameless in all of this. But he is the best we have for sure and I will stand by that. QBs are not perfect. I remember Brees and Ryan both having a 5 interception 0 TD game last season. I remember Peyton throwing 2 interceptions and failing to beat the Ravens even with 14 points from a Kick Returner we cut (our Special Teams coach sucks BTW). It's pretty cool if his worst games are better than some of the elite QB's worst games.

As for finding a replacement QB... You don't find guys late in the draft and groom them. Just doesn't happen. There's only been 1 Tom Brady. If you trade up to select a QB you don't address key positions like a 2nd WR, or O Line. So your rookie QB would have a worthless #2 and a terrible right side of the line. It then takes him 2 years to contend and in that time you lost Andre to father time, now you need another #1 WR. Perpetual rebuilding...

If you let Schaub walk to go after Peyton you likely wouldn't have got Peyton anyway and would have been stuck w/ Yates. People forget we had a top 3 defense in 2011. Look at before and after Schaub, it's pretty noticeable: http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/schedule/_/name/hou/year/2011 Not one single game over 22 point after and only 1 under 22 points before.

b0ng
07-17-2013, 01:35 PM
If you let Schaub walk to go after Peyton you likely wouldn't have got Peyton anyway and would have been stuck w/ Yates. People forget we had a top 3 defense in 2011. Look at before and after Schaub, it's pretty noticeable: http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/schedule/_/name/hou/year/2011 Not one single game over 22 point after and only 1 under 22 points before.

Peyton was rumored to want to play for the Texans:

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/sports/pro/football&id=8542447

Someone I know who is close friends with the Manning family says Peyton is definitely interested in coming to the Texans. Manning will be released by the Colts early next month and will be a free agent. The person who knows the Mannings says Peyton wants to play on a team that has a chance of going to a Super Bowl, and the Texans fit that description.

Bob Allen usually doesn't make stuff up like this, and I believe if we wanted Peyton, we could've had him.

TexansFTW
07-17-2013, 02:49 PM
Peyton was rumored to want to play for the Texans:

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/sports/pro/football&id=8542447



Bob Allen usually doesn't make stuff up like this, and I believe if we wanted Peyton, we could've had him.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think we ever had a chance. Peyton was "interested" in MANY teams. Bob Allen is a Houston only guy, therefore if there was a story on Peyton I wonder what he would talk about...

This article was created with odds a month AFTER that Bob Allen story, there are 10 teams on here with a shot at Peyton, notice how the winning team isn't even on this list of 10. http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/19384/laying-the-odds-on-peytons-next-home

This doesn't even factor in that we are a completely cap strapped team and Peyton is a $7+ million increase per year on the cap vs. Schaub. So 2 options would happen: 1. We never would have got Peyton (I think this is the most likely) or 2. We would have to shed a LOT to afford him and where are we then? I don't remember it being a given he wins Super Bowls or even competes in them in Indy.

drs23
07-17-2013, 04:46 PM
I'm pretty sure finding guys who are "cheap" to play the QB spot is not a good idea at all. The Texans are probably looking for Schaub's replacement, but as 90% of the NFL has shown us, finding a great QB is no small task at all. I mean look at who the Chiefs have had playing QB for the last 20 years, or the Bears, or the Lions or the Browns or one of the other myriad of teams who draft, trade for, and start terrible QB's.

Kubiak got us a decent QB after the David Carr experience, I'll trust him to try to do the same thing after Schaub.

Yes, he did. I'm probably way off base here with nothing to go on but my gut feeling but it's been kicked around a few times here.

That gut feeling being I would not be at all surprised to see Kubes and Rick do a Matt Schaub V2.0. That being calling his old mentor Big Shanny and working a deal that puts Kirk Cousins in a Texans uni.

Granted his playing time has been somewhat limited but when he played, he played well and he knows the system.

Prolly won't happen but if it did I wouldn't be at all surprised and very pleased.

Just my :twocents:

The Pencil Neck
07-17-2013, 05:18 PM
Yes, he did. I'm probably way off base here with nothing to go on but my gut feeling but it's been kicked around a few times here.

That gut feeling being I would not be at all surprised to see Kubes and Rick do a Matt Schaub V2.0. That being calling his old mentor Big Shanny and working a deal that puts Kirk Cousins in a Texans uni.

Granted his playing time has been somewhat limited but when he played, he played well and he knows the system.

Prolly won't happen but if it did I wouldn't be at all surprised and very pleased.

Just my :twocents:

If I'm Shannie, I'm not so sure I do that deal. Until RGIII shows that he's not going to get himself killed OR The Shannies show that they're not going to kill RGIII with their play-calling, I'm expecting them to keep Cousins around as a really nice insurance policy.

Rey
07-17-2013, 05:27 PM
Guys better than schaub at qb arent coming out on the FA market...the manning situation was the exception not the rule..

Its all about the draft......

All I hear are a bunch of excuses.

I don't care that the Manning situation doesn't happen all the time. The point is that when opportunities do arise you can't capitalize if you aren't prepared to or wanting to.

steelbtexan
07-17-2013, 05:31 PM
I read a lot of the same stuff in these threads and it always ties back to misguided hate. A lot of you hate Schaub and want him removed, what's your solution?

Go get Alex Smith at the end of the season? I promise you Schaub is better.

Let TJ Yates run the show? LOL, I promise that dude sucks. When his rookie contract is up he will likely be out of the NFL if he can't find a team that keeps 3 QBs on the 53 man roster.

Go draft RusWil in the 3rd? I promise a lot of teams have tried for years and haven't done it yet. And let's not give these rookies the Lombardi trophy just yet. I want to see how all of them do in their 2nd year (that includes RG3 and Luck). I've got a lot of money with friends riding on Seahawks missing playoffs.

Go use a 1st round pick on a QB when we have a 2 year window to win a Super Bowl? This leads to a lifetime of mediocrity not addressing key positions when it's time to strike.

Jaws knows football quarterbacks better than most. Jaws stood on top of his desk yelling about how Flacco could make "all the throws" and everyone else just laughed at him and called him an idiot. 1 Super Bowl MVP later people aren't laughing anymore.

I dont hate Schaub, in fact I like him.

I dont think you can win a SB with Schaub as a 16 game + playoffs starter, due to his foot injuries. How that makes me a hater is beyond me.

steelbtexan
07-17-2013, 05:43 PM
Guys better than schaub at qb arent coming out on the FA market...the manning situation was the exception not the rule..

Its all about the draft......

The Manning situation, Favre situation, Warner situation, Cutler situation, Brees situation, Hasselbeck situation. A situation that didn't work out but was a bold move, Carson Palmer top the Raiders and then the Cardinals taking another gamble on Palmer


In the draft recently you have the E. Manning/Rivers situation, the RG3 situation, Kaepernick, R.Wilson situations.

So yes this situations happen more often than you you think. But it takes a bold move. If Schaub doesn't get it done this yr I hope Gary/Rick makes a bold move like these. Gary made his bold move bringing in Schaub and it may be time for another bold move.

The Pencil Neck
07-17-2013, 05:58 PM
The Manning situation, Favre situation, Warner situation, Cutler situation, Brees situation, Hasselbeck situation. A situation that didn't work out but was a bold move, Carson Palmer top the Raiders and then the Cardinals taking another gamble on Palmer


In the draft recently you have the E. Manning/Rivers situation, the RG3 situation, Kaepernick, R.Wilson situations.

So yes this situations happen more often than you you think. But it takes a bold move. If Schaub doesn't get it done this yr I hope Gary/Rick makes a bold move like these. Gary made his bold move bringing in Schaub and it may be time for another bold move.

Unlike you, I think Schaub can take us to the promised land. I don't put as much stock in the QB as some people. I don't consider some SB winning QBs as all that great.

BUT... I agree that it may be time for another bold move at the QB position. This year (or next year) might be Schaub's last chance with the Texans.

OTOH, when you were mentioning all the QB moves that have been made, you mostly mentioned the successful ones. You didn't mention the Cassel situation, the Vince Young (in Philly and Buffalo) situations, the Michael Vick situation (still in progress, I suppose), the Ryan Fitzpatrick situation, the Josh Freeman situation, the Blaine Gabbert situation, the Jimmy Clausen situation, the Colt McCoy situation, the John Beck situation, ... all moves that for one reason or another haven't worked out.

drs23
07-17-2013, 06:04 PM
The Manning situation, Favre situation, Warner situation, Cutler situation, Brees situation, Hasselbeck situation. A situation that didn't work out but was a bold move, Carson Palmer top the Raiders and then the Cardinals taking another gamble on Palmer


In the draft recently you have the E. Manning/Rivers situation, the RG3 situation, Kaepernick, R.Wilson situations.

So yes this situations happen more often than you you think. But it takes a bold move. If Schaub doesn't get it done this yr I hope Gary/Rick makes a bold move like these. Gary made his bold move bringing in Schaub and it may be time for another bold move.

steelb, do you think he has the "hangie downies" to do that or do you think Rick would just say "this is what I'm gonna do?"

TexansFTW
07-17-2013, 06:27 PM
The Manning situation, Favre situation, Warner situation, Cutler situation, Brees situation, Hasselbeck situation. A situation that didn't work out but was a bold move, Carson Palmer top the Raiders and then the Cardinals taking another gamble on Palmer


In the draft recently you have the E. Manning/Rivers situation, the RG3 situation, Kaepernick, R.Wilson situations.

So yes this situations happen more often than you you think. But it takes a bold move. If Schaub doesn't get it done this yr I hope Gary/Rick makes a bold move like these. Gary made his bold move bringing in Schaub and it may be time for another bold move.

Another person mentioned a LOT of failures. Look at the Raiders for example. They blew that team up and now will be the #1 pick AKA last place in the league for the next 2 years likely.

Bold moves can bury a good organization or greatly help a terrible one. We aren't terrible and therefore don't need it. The Houston Texans are trending UP. We are getting better each year, and if we can avoid disaster in the form of injury I believe the sky is the limit here. Let's make bold moves when the time comes, but today, let's play this season out. AFCCG or then let's look at the draft, 4 premiere QBs coming out next year, maybe even 6.

steelbtexan
07-17-2013, 08:09 PM
steelb, do you think he has the "hangie downies" to do that or do you think Rick would just say "this is what I'm gonna do?"

I think Rick will do what Gary tells him to do when it comes to who Gary wants on his offense. Likewise with Wade and the defense.

If Schaub continues his late seaslon decline next yr I could see Gary growing a pair and making a move. The question is would he trade for an established NFL QB, (Cousins) or move up in the draft and pick a Bridgewater/Boyd/Fales/McCarron/Murray etc....

If Casey Pachall is straightened out he would be my pick in the 2/3rd rd. This doesn't even include Johnny Football.

steelbtexan
07-17-2013, 08:12 PM
Another person mentioned a LOT of failures. Look at the Raiders for example. They blew that team up and now will be the #1 pick AKA last place in the league for the next 2 years likely.

Bold moves can bury a good organization or greatly help a terrible one. We aren't terrible and therefore don't need it. The Houston Texans are trending UP. We are getting better each year, and if we can avoid disaster in the form of injury I believe the sky is the limit here. Let's make bold moves when the time comes, but today, let's play this season out. AFCCG or then let's look at the draft, 4 premiere QBs coming out next year, maybe even 6.

Agreed,

They are probably going to let this yr play out and if Schaub performs poorly they will look for his eventual replacement.

The Pencil Neck
07-18-2013, 03:54 AM
Agreed,

They are probably going to let this yr play out and if Schaub performs poorly they will look for his eventual replacement.

This is what I've been saying. We've had other positions that we've had to fix the past couple of years and we've had a QB who was at the very least very serviceable. I think we've done a lot to plug a lot of important holes the past couple of drafts and that should set us up to go after a QB in next year's draft if we have to. And we could come away with an awesome QB without even having to break the bank to trade up into the first few picks of the first round.

I'm not even sure if Schaub has to perform that poorly for them to make the change.

But with Kubiak's known mistrust of rookies, I don't expect this new QB to start immediately. So that means -- barring some complete meltdown -- Schaub is probably our starter for the next two seasons.

ObsiWan
07-18-2013, 04:59 AM
steelb, do you think he has the "hangie downies" to do that or do you think Rick would just say "this is what I'm gonna do?"

I think the fact that Rick Smith came out, in front of everyone, and said "Schaub needs to step up in big situations." is as close as the Texans' front office will come to saying "Crap or get off the pot, Matt. Get it done - THIS YEAR."

Usually when Smithiak makes those sort of "so-and-so needs to play better..." statements, the guy rises to the challenge or Smith soon finds his replacement.

I won't say Schaub is on the hot seat, but its not far from it.

Rey
07-18-2013, 08:21 AM
But with Kubiak's known mistrust of rookies, I don't expect this new QB to start immediately. So that means -- barring some complete meltdown -- Schaub is probably our starter for the next two seasons.

I cannot see that. I don't see kubiak drafting Schaub's replacement and having Schaub hanging in the wind.

Texans don't really jerk guys around like that. I think either Schaub will be here, they'll trade up or take a qb very high that they feel comfortable starting early on, or they'll let Yates and keenum battle for the job with perhaps a good rookie in the mix.

I just don't see them creating an awkward situation on the team where everyone knows Schaub is on his way out and this young hot shot rookie is here to take his spot because Schaub didn't perform how they wanted him to.

Rey
07-18-2013, 08:37 AM
Another person mentioned a LOT of failures. Look at the Raiders for example. They blew that team up and now will be the #1 pick AKA last place in the league for the next 2 years likely.

Bold moves can bury a good organization or greatly help a terrible one. We aren't terrible and therefore don't need it. The Houston Texans are trending UP. We are getting better each year, and if we can avoid disaster in the form of injury I believe the sky is the limit here. Let's make bold moves when the time comes, but today, let's play this season out. AFCCG or then let's look at the draft, 4 premiere QBs coming out next year, maybe even 6.

This is the nfl. Trending up means nothing.

The teams that have trended up have not been as successful as the teams that have just jumped up and won superbowls.

We've been trending up for 7 years. Trending in the NFL is fools gold. With free agency, injuries, guys not performing as expected...you can't afford to have someone as important as the qb melting down during the stretch run. Not sucking is one thing...being ok..mediocre...not throwing the game away....

But playing poorly is not going to cut it.

silvrhand
07-18-2013, 09:48 AM
We've got another 2-3 years of Matt until we can't keept his core of player together unless he gets hurt again.

- Matt Schaub
- Andre Johnson
- Chris Myers
- Daniel Manning
- Duane Brown
- Owen Daniels

Adding Ed Reed we have another good 2-3 years at our superbowl we'll have to make it happen soon or else we get a ridiculous good draft in the next 2-3 years.

thunderkyss
07-18-2013, 10:17 AM
I think the starting job belongs to Matt Schaub unless Tj Yates wins it after a Matt Schau injury (I'm not hoping for this to happen, or looking forward to it)

If Matt goes down due to injury & Yates does not light it up, Yates' time with Houston is done. If Matt is out long enough that Keenum gets a shot, he'll have his opportunity. If he doesn't play well enough that Kubiak can say, "He's our new starter." He'll be a back up again & Schaub will be the starter when he comes back.

Depending on how they feel about Schaub at that time will determine how aggressive they are in filling that role. Being that Schaub will be a year closer to Tom Brady's age now I doubt they'll be as aggressive as many here would hope.

Schaub is pretty similar to Carson Palmer. The Bengals felt they needed to get aggressive to find his replacement & Palmer forced a trade. We know of at least two teams that still think of Palmer as a starting QB in this league.

Unless they know that something is really going on with Schaub's foot, I don't see the Texans moving on from Matt Schaub anytime soon. His contract was set up for him to be very successful in 2012 or 2013 & have an opportunity to earn the money Flacco, Stafford, & Romo got. It wasn't set up to cut bait after next season.

ChampionTexan
07-18-2013, 10:20 AM
We've got another 2-3 years of Matt until we can't keept his core of player together unless he gets hurt again.

- Matt Schaub
- Andre Johnson
- Chris Myers
- Daniel Manning
- Duane Brown
- Owen Daniels

Adding Ed Reed we have another good 2-3 years at our superbowl we'll have to make it happen soon or else we get a ridiculous good draft in the next 2-3 years.

With the exception of Schaub (unless you're really optimistic about either Yates or Keenum) and Brown, every one of those guys possible departure has been addressed via (in the same order you listed them) Deandre Hopkins, Ben Jones, D.J. Swearinger, and Garrett Graham. How they'll turn out, who knows, but Jones and Graham have given us reason for cautious optimism, and the other two are rookies, so while we've seen some positive comments come out of OTA's, the reality is there's no reason to assume either good or bad things about their future. The good news is that with the clear and obvious exception of Andre, none of these guys is so good that it's unrealistic to believe that their replacements can't play at pretty much the same level they currently are. The point is the pending areas of need have already been very specifically addressed.

As far as Schaub goes, while I'm probably a little more optimistic about his 2013 prospects than many, the reality is when we do need to replace him, it's not like we're looking for a replacement for Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, or Peyton Manning. We're looking for a replacement for an above average QB. If - on the other hand - he does surprise many of us with an effective 2013 season (including playoffs), he's a 32 year old QB who doesn't rely heavily on his physical assets for his effectiveness. If he played another 4-5 years, he certainly wouldn't be unique in that regard.

Finally, IMO, Brown absolutely doesn't belong on that list. He just signed a 7 year contract, and he's 28 years old (at the beginning of this season). If you're good enough (and he clearly is), it's absolutely not uncommon for O-linemen to play well into their 30's. There's no reason to believe Duane Brown's time with the Texans will be limited to the 2-3 years you mention.

thunderkyss
07-18-2013, 12:42 PM
...he's a 32 year old QB who doesn't rely heavily on his physical assets for his effectiveness. If he played another 4-5 years, he certainly wouldn't be unique in that regard.


I think we overstate the physical assets when we're talking about QBs.

Matt Schaub has averaged over 90 in QBR (NFL.com) & has thrown for (or been on track to throw for) 4000 yards in the past 5 seasons. & we've been winning more than not over that time..... it's not like there are a bunch of garbage stats/yards in there.

He's got it upstairs & that's not easy to replace.

I understand we've got a QB friendly system, but we've seen others in this system not do so well. Plummer never had those numbers, John Beck, Grossman, & a bunch of other guys who played in that system. I can't think of anyone, but John Elway, who has been as productive as Schaub in this system.

32+ QBs will start in 2013, but there are not 32 starting QBs in the NFL. We've got one.

The Pencil Neck
07-18-2013, 12:44 PM
With the exception of Schaub (unless you're really optimistic about either Yates or Keenum) and Brown, every one of those guys possible departure has been addressed via (in the same order you listed them) Deandre Hopkins, Ben Jones, D.J. Swearinger, and Garrett Graham. How they'll turn out, who knows, but Jones and Graham have given us reason for cautious optimism, and the other two are rookies, so while we've seen some positive comments come out of OTA's, the reality is there's no reason to assume either good or bad things about their future. The good news is that with the clear and obvious exception of Andre, none of these guys is so good that it's unrealistic to believe that their replacements can't play at pretty much the same level they currently are. The point is the pending areas of need have already been very specifically addressed.

As far as Schaub goes, while I'm probably a little more optimistic about his 2013 prospects than many, the reality is when we do need to replace him, it's not like we're looking for a replacement for Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, or Peyton Manning. We're looking for a replacement for an above average QB. If - on the other hand - he does surprise many of us with an effective 2013 season (including playoffs), he's a 32 year old QB who doesn't rely heavily on his physical assets for his effectiveness. If he played another 4-5 years, he certainly wouldn't be unique in that regard.

Finally, IMO, Brown absolutely doesn't belong on that list. He just signed a 7 year contract, and he's 28 years old (at the beginning of this season). If you're good enough (and he clearly is), it's absolutely not uncommon for O-linemen to play well into their 30's. There's no reason to believe Duane Brown's time with the Texans will be limited to the 2-3 years you mention.

MSR. Good post.

TexansFTW
07-19-2013, 01:03 AM
This is the nfl. Trending up means nothing.

The teams that have trended up have not been as successful as the teams that have just jumped up and won superbowls.

We've been trending up for 7 years. Trending in the NFL is fools gold. With free agency, injuries, guys not performing as expected...you can't afford to have someone as important as the qb melting down during the stretch run. Not sucking is one thing...being ok..mediocre...not throwing the game away....

But playing poorly is not going to cut it.

I have to completely disagree. Just look at the Baltimore Ravens. Those guys have been trending up each year constantly deep in the playoffs or in the AFC championship game... they just won a Super Bowl.

I also disagree with the Texans trending up the past 7 years. I remember in 2010 we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL and tied for last place in our division (obviously missing playoffs). In 2011 our D got better and we finally snuck into the playoffs and scraped out a win. Last year we kicked A in our division whipped ass in a playoff game. Then our wounded D got 41 points put up against them in a playoff game and we were bounced out.

All in all I see a 2 year trend upwards, we are putting the pieces in place and I'm excited moving forward. If you want to blow this team up before the season starts go ahead and see how many front offices will hire you as a GM. Me, I like this hand that's been dealt and plan on holding it to the river (seeing this through).

Side Note... Cap strapped teams don't cut QBs that will cost their team $13.5 mill against the cap. All these arguments are null and void. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/matt-schaub/ Most likely scenario he gets his contract restructured at the end of this season depending on the results of the season and we see where we are then.

Rey
07-19-2013, 10:08 AM
I have to completely disagree. Just look at the Baltimore Ravens. Those guys have been trending up each year constantly deep in the playoffs or in the AFC championship game... they just won a Super Bowl.


If you think the Ravens have been trending up leading to their superbowl win, then I think you and I have different definitions of trending up.

Ravens have been stagnant. As a matter of fact, with the age of that roster and the injuries they had I might even say they've been trending down.

But that means nothing because last year when it mattered most, they played good football. Trending in the NFL means very little.

BigBull17
07-19-2013, 11:45 AM
Reading the list, I have no problem with Schaub at 9. He's ahead of 4 guys who could be MUCH better, or could look terrible next year in Kap, Luck, RG3, and RW. Schaub is who he is, in a way that's scary, but in a way that's refreshing. We'll see.

BullBlitz
07-19-2013, 10:43 PM
If you think the Ravens have been trending up leading to their superbowl win, then I think you and I have different definitions of trending up.

Ravens have been stagnant. As a matter of fact, with the age of that roster and the injuries they had I might even say they've been trending down.

But that means nothing because last year when it mattered most, they played good football. Trending in the NFL means very little.

Agree. The only trend that matters is the one that takes place from about Thanksgiving through early February.

thunderkyss
07-20-2013, 10:40 AM
Trending in the NFL means very little.

I'd agree in as much as the only Super Bowl team I can think of that did any trending were the Steelers, with Cowher. Maybe the Colts that one year.


Other than that, Most Super Bowl teams in today's time anyway, explode on the scene & stay there for a little while. The Patriots went from mediocre to Super Bowl, & have just played at a high level ever since.

The Giants are trying to fire their coach every other year... I guess that's a trend.

TexanBacker93
07-20-2013, 06:29 PM
Here's how I see it.

1. There are a handful of top tier guys:
Rodgers
P. Manning
Brady
Brees

They've all excelled over a long period. They've won SBs. I don't think anyone (except Tiki Barber) would argue this group.

2. On the next tier:
Roethlisberger
E. Manning
Flacco

They also have won SBs, but they aren't on the same par as the list above. I don't include Newton here because I think he's still too young and could go either way.

3. The next tier is filled with you "above average vets":
Cutler
Rivers
Ryan
Schaub
Stafford
Romo

None of them has won a SB. None has experienced great playoff success, but they've all had some great regular season success.

4. The young guns:
RG III
Wilson
Kaepernick
Newton
Luck
Dalton
Tannehill
Bradford

The rest of the starters are either bottom barrel to me. From a ranking perspective I can see anyone from the 3rd and 4th tiers being ranked above or ahead of the rest. There isn't a lot of difference between the QBs on each tier. The above average vets all have strengths and issues. I would take some of the young guns instead of Schaub, but I don't know if I would swap him for Cutler, Rivers, or Romo.

thunderkyss
07-20-2013, 09:59 PM
I know Flacco won a Super Bowl & all, but he ain't better than Schaub

steelbtexan
07-20-2013, 10:12 PM
I know Flacco won a Super Bowl & all, but he ain't better than Schaub

Flacco has been in the playoffs every yr he has been in the league.

He is a dropped Evans TD pass from going to the last 2 Super Bowls. Flacco has accomplished much more in his career than Schaub has in his. That's not debatable.

ObsiWan
07-20-2013, 10:22 PM
I know Flacco won a Super Bowl & all, but he ain't better than Schaub

One question: Recall the deep throw that Flacco made to Jacoby Jones to win the Denver game (LINK (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/Cant-Miss-Play-Jacoby-Jones-70-Yard-TD-Catch/3e179f99-2d2e-4979-ae03-b15d8133f49c) in case you forgot).... That ball is 55 yds in the air... Can Schaub make that throw?? Perhaps more importantly; does Schaub have the stones to pull the trigger in that situation?

A secondary question, does Schaub avoid the rush - as Flacco did - enough to give himself the opportunity to even try the throw.


That's the difference.
Big game. Big situation. Flacco believes in himself and gambles. Would Schaub?

thunderkyss
07-21-2013, 09:02 AM
Flacco has been in the playoffs every yr he has been in the league.

He is a dropped Evans TD pass from going to the last 2 Super Bowls. Flacco has accomplished much more in his career than Schaub has in his. That's not debatable.

I'm not debating how much Flacco has accomplished. He's been on a better team since he came into the league. We want our team to be as consistently good as the Ravens. But that doesn't mean that Ray Rice is better than Arian Foster, or Bolden better than Andre, both of whom have accomplished more than their counterparts on our team.

Flacco is clutch, & when the game is on the line he is without a doubt, in my mind, the better of the two. But he is not a better QB than Matt Schaub.

One question: Recall the deep throw that Flacco made to Jacoby Jones to win the Denver game (LINK (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/Cant-Miss-Play-Jacoby-Jones-70-Yard-TD-Catch/3e179f99-2d2e-4979-ae03-b15d8133f49c) in case you forgot).... That ball is 55 yds in the air... Can Schaub make that throw?? Perhaps more importantly; does Schaub have the stones to pull the trigger in that situation?


Yes, Schaub can make that throw. I don't think Flacco would pull the trigger 100% of the time, maybe 85/15 that he throws it. Schaub is probably 75/25. Y'all act like Schaub's never thrown it out like that to win a game, or get us to OT.


A secondary question, does Schaub avoid the rush - as Flacco did - enough to give himself the opportunity to even try the throw.


I recently watched our game against Indy in Indy. Schaub was doing what he had to do to avoid the rush, which included making plays outside the pocket, with or without the play action. He's not as good at it as many other QBs, but he can do it, has done it, & will do it again.


That's the difference.
Big game. Big situation. Flacco believes in himself and gambles. Would Schaub?

The difference is when Flacco throws it out ther & "gambles" on himself, someone makes a play & catches the ball. (I'm looking at you James Casey)

I truly hope the Texans know about these discussions we have on this board. I hope that they hear the comments on the radio, & read the comments to the blogs. They all need to see the fire that Schaub is under & understand he was not the only one who didn't "step" up.

Jacoby did, for Flacco. Andre didn't (he dropped a TD that could have given us HOA throughout), Arian didn't, Wade Smith didn't, Garrett Graham (bless his soul) didn't.

ObsiWan
07-22-2013, 12:02 AM
I'm not debating how much Flacco has accomplished. He's been on a better team since he came into the league. We want our team to be as consistently good as the Ravens. But that doesn't mean that Ray Rice is better than Arian Foster, or Bolden better than Andre, both of whom have accomplished more than their counterparts on our team.

Flacco is clutch, & when the game is on the line he is without a doubt, in my mind, the better of the two. But he is not a better QB than Matt Schaub.
I hear what your saying... kinda...
BUT...
All other things being equal, if Flacco is clutch (11 TDs/ Zero INTs in this playoff run) and Schaub much less so (2 TDs / 2 INTs in his two games) how can Flacco not be the better QB??

Yes, Schaub can make that throw. I don't think Flacco would pull the trigger 100% of the time, maybe 85/15 that he throws it. Schaub is probably 75/25. Y'all act like Schaub's never thrown it out like that to win a game, or get us to OT.
The thing is Schaub has yet to do it when the bright lights come on.

I recently watched our game against Indy in Indy. Schaub was doing what he had to do to avoid the rush, which included making plays outside the pocket, with or without the play action. He's not as good at it as many other QBs, but he can do it, has done it, & will do it again.

The difference is when Flacco throws it out there & "gambles" on himself, someone makes a play & catches the ball. (I'm looking at you James Casey) so am I! Jacoby comes thru in the clutch and Casey whiffs! WTF!
Again, performing against Indy @ Indy is not playoff football. That's what Rick Smith is talking about when he said, Matt has to step up in big games.

[QUOTE=thunderkyss;2183650]I truly hope the Texans know about these discussions we have on this board. I hope that they hear the comments on the radio, & read the comments to the blogs. They all need to see the fire that Schaub is under & understand he was not the only one who didn't "step" up.

Jacoby did, for Flacco. Andre didn't (he dropped a TD that could have given us HOA throughout), Arian didn't, Wade Smith didn't, Garrett Graham (bless his soul) didn't.
I take issue with Arian being in this roll call; 172 yds of offense and a TD against the Bengals and 153 yds of offense and two TDs against the Pats... and you say he didn't step up? Can't co-sign that assessment.

thunderkyss
07-22-2013, 10:04 AM
I hear what your saying... kinda...
BUT...
All other things being equal, if Flacco is clutch (11 TDs/ Zero INTs in this playoff run) and Schaub much less so (2 TDs / 2 INTs in his two games) how can Flacco not be the better QB??


Both Flacco & Schaub are QBs, 24/7, 365 days of the year. You can't pluck out a months worth of football & point to it as evidence that one is better than the other. You have to look at body of work as well as context. Your stats show that Flacco is the better QB in the play-offs. But Matt is the better QB overall. Consistently.

It stands to reason if Flacco can Flacco himself through the season, then turn it on & become a different QB in the play offs, then so can Matt. Flacco has had more opportunity in the play offs than Schaub has, that's all. We'll see what Schaub does on his fifth trip & compare apples to apples. However, I don't think we'll have to wait that long before Schaub earns a ring. I don't think anyone is saying that Flacco carried his team to the play offs, or to the Super Bowl. Matt is more like Flacco than he is Rob Johnson or Trent Dilfer. If the Ravens can win it all with Flacco, we can win it all with Schaub.



The thing is Schaub has yet to do it when the bright lights come on.

Again, performing against Indy @ Indy is not playoff football. That's what Rick Smith is talking about when he said, Matt has to step up in big games.


I understand, never argued the point. People said the same thing about Flacco many times before Jan 2, 2012.

steelbtexan
07-22-2013, 10:45 AM
[QUOTE=thunderkyss;2183894]Both Flacco & Schaub are QBs, 24/7, 365 days of the year. You can't pluck out a months worth of football & point to it as evidence that one is better than the other. You have to look at body of work as well as context. Your stats show that Flacco is the better QB in the play-offs. But Matt is the better QB overall. Consistently.

It stands to reason if Flacco can Flacco himself through the season, then turn it on & become a different QB in the play offs, then so can Matt. Flacco has had more opportunity in the play offs than Schaub has, that's all. We'll see what Schaub does on his fifth trip & compare apples to apples. However, I don't think we'll have to wait that long before Schaub earns a ring. I don't think anyone is saying that Flacco carried his team to the play offs, or to the Super Bowl. Matt is more like Flacco than he is Rob Johnson or Trent Dilfer. If the Ravens can win it all with Flacco, we can win it all with Schaub.

I disagree with the first part of this post

Rick seems to be in the prove it to me mode whem it comes to Schaub.

Schaub on his best day couldn't throw the ball as far as Flacco did on the game winning TD to Jacopby. if you cant see that you've got blinders on.

TexansFTW
07-22-2013, 11:21 AM
One question: Recall the deep throw that Flacco made to Jacoby Jones to win the Denver game (LINK (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/Cant-Miss-Play-Jacoby-Jones-70-Yard-TD-Catch/3e179f99-2d2e-4979-ae03-b15d8133f49c) in case you forgot).... That ball is 55 yds in the air... Can Schaub make that throw??

Perhaps more importantly; does Schaub have the stones to pull the trigger in that situation?

Question 1: Yeah, he can. And Dre didn't have to wait on the ball it caught him in stride: http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&gl=US&client=mv-google&v=ejiMS7dh_hY&nomobile=1

Question 2: Any NFL QB can throw a Hail Mary and pray a WR comes down w/ the ball.

All that being said, Flacco is still better than Schaub, but not by much. Flacco definitely has had a better team than Schaub too which is a little unfair also.

Final point on Flacco vs. Schaub. I do think Flacco is better, but before we start calling him "clutch" let's flash back on his "clutch" moments vs. Schaub:

4th and 29 against the Chargers. They don't convert this 4th and 29 They lose this game, they don't win division and their playoff schedule changes and likely everything changes. Great "clutch" dump off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EDaPj9vaCg

Flacco to Jacoby again, just listen to the NFL guys saying how disgusting the Denver secondary was. That pass had little to do with Flacco and Jacoby's success and more to do with Denver's ineptitude in my opinion.:

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/Cant-Miss-Play-Jacoby-Jones-70-Yard-TD-Catch/3e179f99-2d2e-4979-ae03-b15d8133f49c

My point is "clutch" and luck look very similar to me.

Schaub playoffs vs. Patriots (41) - 28 points - Loser, not clutch, choke artist
Flacco playoffs vs. Patriots (13) - 28 points - Clutch, gamer, elite

thunderkyss
07-22-2013, 12:18 PM
Both Flacco & Schaub are QBs, 24/7, 365 days of the year. You can't pluck out a months worth of football & point to it as evidence that one is better than the other. You have to look at body of work as well as context. Your stats show that Flacco is the better QB in the play-offs. But Matt is the better QB overall. Consistently.

I disagree with the first part of this post

Rick seems to be in the prove it to me mode whem it comes to Schaub.


Since Rick Smith is in WHYDFML mode, Schaub & Flacco aren't QBs 24/7, 365 days of the year?

Interesting.

Schaub on his best day couldn't throw the ball as far as Flacco did on the game winning TD to Jacopby. if you cant see that you've got blinders on.

& Flacco generally doesn't make the quick, sound decisions Schaub does. How far you can throw the ball is a small part of what it takes to be a successful QB in this league.

That said, how far was it? I'm pretty sure Schaub has made similar throws.

TexansFTW
07-22-2013, 12:44 PM
That said, how far was it? I'm pretty sure Schaub has made similar throws.

One post above yours I posted a video where he threw the ball ~the same distance and caught his WR in stride with a Lineman in his face about to hit him.

Mr teX
07-23-2013, 03:31 PM
One post above yours I posted a video where he threw the ball ~the same distance and caught his WR in stride with a Lineman in his face about to hit him.

Steelb will just discount it & say..."that was in Denver, the air's thinner up there which is why he was able to do that.."

I seem to remember Schaub throwing a 50 yd bomb to AJ for a game tying TD in Washington a few years back though.....threw it on the run off balance too.........:kitten:

TexansFTW
07-23-2013, 05:03 PM
Steelb will just discount it & say..."that was in Denver, the air's thinner up there which is why he was able to do that.."

I seem to remember Schaub throwing a 50 yd bomb to AJ for a game tying TD in Washington a few years back though.....threw it on the run off balance too.........:kitten:

I've noticed there are certain members here that will dismiss everything positive Schaub has done and only focus on the negative. I call it misguided hate. Schaub is no Tom Brady. I would love it if he was Tom Brady or if we could find Tom Brady in the 6th round, but that's not the world we live in and we've tried.

Schaub is a very good, above average QB in the NFL. Here is something to think about: Before Eli Manning's 1st Super Bowl win, and before Flacco's win last year those guys were both viewed as average at best with a lot of people thinking they'd never win the big ones. Then they win the big ones and everyone forgets how much they doubted those guys or said how worthless they were. Those that stood behind those guys were the GM, Head Coach, and rest of the front office and they were rewarded with Super Bowl Trophies.

Teams that give up and rebuild every 3-4 years are the Chiefs, Raiders, and Bills. I don't want to become them. I want to be the Ravens. Building on the year before getting deeper in the playoffs, so close to being at that Super Bowl door, putting more pieces in position to get there and then pushing through and breaking down the wall. With Kevin Walter out, Nuk in, and a healthy defense intact I promise we are gonna ravage the NFL this year if our big 6 remain healthy. Then #9 is going to be viewed by everyone as the #9 Jaws called him.