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welsh texan
06-23-2013, 07:31 AM
Ok so I guess we've talked at great length about the actual impact these two losses have had on the field.

I believe in the coaching on OL that this team has to eventually develop the kind of 5 man unity of thought across our offensive line that we had before these two were no-longer Texans (not necessarily this coming season).

A thought I've been having though is what impact this will have when our linemen approach FA in the future.

Do you believe that seeing these two players perform exactly as the Texans would have hoped in our own system, then move in FA and not live up to their price tag, will lead to us having less competition for the services of OL FA's in the future, or will there always be a team or two out their who believe that a good performer in one system will translate to what they are looking for in the position?

As an aside, does the proliferation of the read-option mean that in the coming years we'll have more competition for our prototypical OL check-sheet in FA and the draft when trying to sign guys?

It seems to have been the case over the development of our version of the ZBS that we've been able to pick up one teams trash and turn it into our treasure.

Even Duane Brown, a first round pick, would look to have been a steal where he was taken.

IDEXAN
06-23-2013, 09:28 AM
Ok so I guess we've talked at great length about the actual impact these two losses have had on the field.

I believe in the coaching on OL that this team has to eventually develop the kind of 5 man unity of thought across our offensive line that we had before these two were no-longer Texans (not necessarily this coming season).

A thought I've been having though is what impact this will have when our linemen approach FA in the future.

Do you believe that seeing these two players perform exactly as the Texans would have hoped in our own system, then move in FA and not live up to their price tag, will lead to us having less competition for the services of OL FA's in the future, or will there always be a team or two out their who believe that a good performer in one system will translate to what they are looking for in the position?

As an aside, does the proliferation of the read-option mean that in the coming years we'll have more competition for our prototypical OL check-sheet in FA and the draft when trying to sign guys?

It seems to have been the case over the development of our version of the ZBS that we've been able to pick up one teams trash and turn it into our treasure.

Even Duane Brown, a first round pick, would look to have been a steal where he was taken.
When guard Mike Brisiel signed with the Raiders as a free agent before last season, his arrival was seen as part of the teamís commitment to the zone blocking system favored by new offensive coordinator Greg Knapp.

Knapp lasted just one frustrating year, however, and his zone blocking system has been thrown out along with him. That left Brisiel and his $4.35 million salary in a somewhat precarious position as the team started working their way toward better position under the cap this offseason.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/04/raiders-save-some-money-by-restructuring-mike-brisiel-contract/
********************************
Looks like the ZBS is not for every team, or maybe Knapp didn't have what it took to pull off the conversion in Oakland ? Who knows ?
RE Winston in KC, I think he just got caught up in regime change, though he
is having problems finding employment this year it would seem ? I did see one Chiefs game last year, and Winston can still bloc on rushing plays but based on that game, he also still looks to be a liabilty in pass-blocing.
But you are right about Duane Brown, and so was Alex Gibbs back when he was drafted because everything I remember from that Draft was Brown was totally Gibb's call. I mean using a very late 1st round pick for what is now a ProBowler and All-Pro LT who @ 27 is in his prime was definitely a great pick.

Tailgate
06-23-2013, 10:25 AM
I remember when Kubiak was first hired and all the Bronco fans said that this ZBS/Denver offense will take 4-5 years to hit full steam. Mainly due to the O-Line and mount of time it takes the player to acclimate and especially to gel as a cohesive unit with the rest of the line. A couple years back we peaked on the O-Line because of this.

thunderkyss
06-23-2013, 10:44 AM
A thought I've been having though is what impact this will have when our linemen approach FA in the future.

Do you believe that seeing these two players perform exactly as the Texans would have hoped in our own system, then move in FA and not live up to their price tag, will lead to us having less competition for the services of OL FA's in the future, or will there always be a team or two out their who believe that a good performer in one system will translate to what they are looking for in the position?


These players did not perform "exactly" as the Texans would have hoped in our system. Had that been the case, we'd have tried to restructure to keep them.

You always over pay in FA. If you're lucky, you'll get a solid player like Briesel who can still start. We've got Wade Smith doing pretty much the same thing for us. Antonio was also overpaid for what he did his first two years here. Danieal Manning, love the guy, but over paid for what he's doing. Jjo, right now it's a wash one great year, one mediocre year, we'll see what we got in 2013.



As an aside, does the proliferation of the read-option mean that in the coming years we'll have more competition for our prototypical OL check-sheet in FA and the draft when trying to sign guys?


The read-option will be about as successful as the Wild-Cat.

thunderkyss
06-23-2013, 10:49 AM
I remember when Kubiak was first hired and all the Bronco fans said that this ZBS/Denver offense will take 4-5 years to hit full steam. Mainly due to the O-Line and mount of time it takes the player to acclimate and especially to gel as a cohesive unit with the rest of the line. A couple years back we peaked on the O-Line because of this.

Denver had done a pretty good job of developing their OLmen as well. They could lose a guy or two & put a back-up/practice squad player in & not miss a beat.

Up until the last year or two of the Shaniak tenure. Then it seemed they struggled to find the right guys. I would have thought we'd have done a better job developing our OL by now

welsh texan
06-23-2013, 11:17 AM
The read-option will be about as successful as the Wild-Cat.

I can't agree with that my ol' mucker.

You think in this QB-driven era, playing to the strengths of the best QB's coming out of college by giving them the chance to run the ball whilst still developing their pocket passing is going to be as short-lived as taking the ball away from your QB altogether on a play?

infantrycak
06-23-2013, 11:39 AM
I can't agree with that my ol' mucker.

You think in this QB-driven era, playing to the strengths of the best QB's coming out of college by giving them the chance to run the ball whilst still developing their pocket passing is going to be as short-lived as taking the ball away from your QB altogether on a play?

Peyton Manning - 7793 attempts and counting. When one of these new guys approaches that we can talk about the transformation of the NFL.

Running QB's (which is different than scrambling QB's) will always be a rarity in the NFL.

Playoffs
06-23-2013, 03:01 PM
I think what you lose is the unit -- T-G unit, C-G, unit, G-T unit -- when you lose a guy. ZBS is about each unit working together, making the same reads and not duplicating the other's action. Brisiel + Winston > each individually.

I think guys like Duane can play power or ZBS. Other ZBS guys may have to add strength/weight to play in power. Some power guys will never qualify for ZBS.

thunderkyss
06-23-2013, 04:54 PM
I can't agree with that my ol' mucker.

You think in this QB-driven era, playing to the strengths of the best QB's coming out of college by giving them the chance to run the ball whilst still developing their pocket passing is going to be as short-lived as taking the ball away from your QB altogether on a play?

I don't think the league is very good at developing QBs using the read-option. & that's going to be the kicker. The QB has to develop. Taking one read then running hasn't been a good method of developing QBs in the past.

Defenses will figure it out, shut it down & QBs these days don't get a lot of time to develop. As soon as Kaepernick breaks a leg, teams are going to remember why we don't run the option in the NFL.

eriadoc
06-23-2013, 05:39 PM
I think what you lose is the unit -- T-G unit, C-G, unit, G-T unit -- when you lose a guy. ZBS is about each unit working together, making the same reads and not duplicating the other's action. Brisiel + Winston > each individually.

This. Brisiel was not some great player. Winston was not some great player. They performed their roles well enough within this offense to be starters. Where the Texans screwed up was letting them both go in the same offseason with no effective replacement groomed. As I said at the time, if Caldwell was better than Brisiel, he would have beaten out Brisiel. If Butler was better than Winston, he would have beaten out Winston. It's one thing to bring a guy along when a starter leaves, but having two of them right next to each other leave really hurts.

It's not like Winston or Brisiel were great, but in the end, Caldwell was a bust and Butler was not anything they thought he'd be. Not only did Caldwell not beat out Brisiel, he didn't even hold down the spot once Brisiel left. Not only did Butler not beat out Winston, he didn't even beat out Newton before he got injured. And Newton wasn't all that.

Basically, the Texans had no real replacement plan. IMO, they got arrogant, thinking almost anyone could step in and hold down the fort.

Texan_Bill
06-23-2013, 06:36 PM
Peyton Manning - 7793 attempts and counting. When one of these new guys approaches that we can talk about the transformation of the NFL.

Running QB's (which is different than scrambling QB's) will always be a rarity in the NFL.

Chris, are you saying Steve Young (scrambler) > than Vince Young (runner)?

And if that is true, Steve McNair the college QB (runner) who learned to be a pocket passer in the NFL with "scrambling" ability turned out to have a fine career?

Set me straight if I'm off base!

DocBar
06-23-2013, 07:32 PM
I can't agree with that my ol' mucker.

You think in this QB-driven era, playing to the strengths of the best QB's coming out of college by giving them the chance to run the ball whilst still developing their pocket passing is going to be as short-lived as taking the ball away from your QB altogether on a play?Unless a team has two QB's, equally as talented in the read-option, there's no way that a team can count on a QB lasting a full season. Defensive coordinators and the general talent level in the NFL is too good to let a gimmick offense fool them for long.

Take a look at how many full seasons Vick has played in his career. That would be once in the 10 years he's actually played in the league. He's played 15 games 3 times. And people call Schaub fragile...

VICK (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235253/michael-vick)

infantrycak
06-23-2013, 09:11 PM
Chris, are you saying Steve Young (scrambler) > than Vince Young (runner)?

And if that is true, Steve McNair the college QB (runner) who learned to be a pocket passer in the NFL with "scrambling" ability turned out to have a fine career?

Set me straight if I'm off base!

LOL, let me put it this way. Roger Staubach's nick name wasn't Roger the tackling dummy and after scrambling he would often noticeably walk away from Landry so his nick name didn't become tackling dummy. Landry would tear Staubach a new orifice for taking unnecessary risks.

For NFL trivia there are three QB's in the top 15 QB rushing leaders who have SB rings - Staubach, Elway and Young.

DocBar
06-23-2013, 10:01 PM
LOL, let me put it this way. Roger Staubach's nick name wasn't Roger the tackling dummy and after scrambling he would often noticeably walk away from Landry so his nick name didn't become tackling dummy. Landry would tear Staubach a new orifice for taking unnecessary risks.

For NFL trivia there are three QB's in the top 15 QB rushing leaders who have SB rings - Staubach, Elway and Young.Pick your times and make them count. A much different view than the pistol.

thunderkyss
06-23-2013, 10:06 PM
Basically, the Texans had no real replacement plan. IMO, they got arrogant, thinking almost anyone could step in and hold down the fort.

We won 13 games.

We were 8th in rushing, 11th in passing, 7th in total offense. 8th in scoring, 1st in T.O.P.

I don't think it's called arrogant when you get that kind of production.

badboy
06-23-2013, 10:39 PM
I think to have the result we did with OLine despite the revolving door at RG us amazing. I think the system + coaching allows Smith to go for lower rated guys often for less money. Wade Smith, Myers, Briesel, Winston and Newton have allowed quality play for minimal costs. Even Studdard played significant minutes at LG. I disagree that Briesel and Winston were as good as you indicate, but coaching + need led to them accomplishing a lot. I think as other "holes" now seemingly filled will allow higher picks to be used in future if needed. My prediction is the Oline will no longer be an area of concern and I am very optimistic with our guys. Let's not over look Dave Gardner and Mondek.

Porky
06-25-2013, 01:44 PM
Andrew Gardner? You're expecting big things from Gardner and Mondek? :vincepalm:

badboy
06-25-2013, 03:43 PM
Andrew Gardner? You're expecting big things from Gardner and Mondek? :vincepalm:Porkster, did I say that? I said do not overlook them. Our coaches took a 7th round pick 214 Newton and started him second season. I am not pushing either for starter but Gardner did look better playing for Newton end of season. I think it is possible Gardner could beat out Harris . Are you aware that Texans' web site has Gardner listed as Brown's backup? That is old and prior to draft and I think prior to re-signing Harris but as of today, I think some would agree the TC lineup would be Brown, Smith, Myers, Brooks and Newton with Harris, Williams and Gardner as competitors for backup swings.

I have Q as a OG but that could change.

I am really hopeful our Oline goes to a strength this season.

Double Barrel
06-25-2013, 04:12 PM
The read-option will be about as successful as the Wild-Cat.

I think so, as well. Things tend to be cyclical in the NFL. Once something becomes trendy on offense, defenses have a learning curve to counter it.

NO scheme in the NFL is unbeatable. It might take a season or two, but once NFL defenses figure it out, game film is looked at by everyone and D-coordinators will copy-cat other defenses that work.

I remember the early 2000's and pocket passers were predicted to be dinosaurs. Vick, Culpepper, and McNabb were called "prototype QBs" and this was the future of the NFL, predicated all the so-called experts.

Very funny to me a decade later and Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are the two most dominate QBs of the decade, and arguable considered two of the best QBs in NFL history. IMMOBILE POCKET PASSERS, the exact opposite of the running QB of the "future".

Once these young QB's legs run out of gas and defenses figure out the schemes to stop the read-option, it will be another package like the wildcat that had it's day and will be put back to bed, waiting for the next generation to forget these schemes and give some young QBs a gap to shoot through for some exciting couple of seasons out of college.

the wonger need food
06-28-2013, 11:56 PM
The current administration has been pretty good about dumping players before their talents completely fall off. Winston's pass pro was starting to decline rapidly and Briesel could labeled injury-prone. The running game would have likely been better with both of those guys last year however it was a calculated risk that might pay off if Newton and Brooks play well this year.

There is one way to beat the read-option.... hit the QB often and hard. With the way the NFL is protecting QB's it may take some time to break down that offense, but it will happen. Defenses will just have to adjust and hit the QB every single play when it is a run, which is completely legal. If the rules are changed even further to protect running QB's then defenses will have to rely on raw speed to beat it.

DocBar
06-29-2013, 12:15 PM
the current administration has been pretty good at letting players walk and getting zero compensation before their talents completely fall off. Winston's pass pro was starting to decline rapidly and briesel could labeled injury-prone. The running game would have likely been better with both of those guys last year however it was a calculated risk that might pay off if newton and brooks play well this year.

There is one way to beat the read-option.... Hit the qb often and hard. With the way the nfl is protecting qb's it may take some time to break down that offense, but it will happen. Defenses will just have to adjust and hit the qb every single play when it is a run, which is completely legal. If the rules are changed even further to protect running qb's then defenses will have to rely on raw speed to beat it.fify.

ObsiWan
06-29-2013, 12:33 PM
fify.
Still mad about Winston?

DocBar
06-30-2013, 04:20 PM
Still mad about Winston?
The only thing I was mad about is they just cut the guy instead of working a trade. Getting a 7th rounder for him is still better than nothing.

I was not a fan of Winston.

The Pencil Neck
07-01-2013, 12:30 AM
The only thing I was mad about is they just cut the guy instead of working a trade. Getting a 7th rounder for him is still better than nothing.

I was not a fan of Winston.

I look at that as more of a PR move with other players. By cutting him, they allowed him to pick and choose his next team and to negotiate the best contract he could get.

If they traded him to a bad team, he could have bitched and moaned about that to other players. "They screwed me! They could have sent me to a better team! Wah wah wah." But they didn't do that.

Players should look at that and think that the Texans treat their players OK even when they move on.

thunderkyss
07-01-2013, 08:29 AM
I look at that as more of a PR move with other players. By cutting him, they allowed him to pick and choose his next team and to negotiate the best contract he could get.

I don't think we should get into the habit of looking out for the player's best interests in these situations.

I think they might have gotten ahead of themselves. They knew he wasn't worth what he was getting paid. Maybe they thought no other team would be interested in him.

KC cutting him leads me to believe they also felt he wasn't worth the money. He's got his good points, running to his side, there aren't many better, imo, but everything else.... he's a headache. Pass pro, backside run plays, penalties...... teams expecting to be great should expect more than what they'll get from Eric Winston.

The Pencil Neck
07-01-2013, 08:50 AM
I don't think we should get into the habit of looking out for the player's best interests in these situations.

I think they might have gotten ahead of themselves. They knew he wasn't worth what he was getting paid. Maybe they thought no other team would be interested in him.

KC cutting him leads me to believe they also felt he wasn't worth the money. He's got his good points, running to his side, there aren't many better, imo, but everything else.... he's a headache. Pass pro, backside run plays, penalties...... teams expecting to be great should expect more than what they'll get from Eric Winston.

I think there are a lot of factors at play:

1. Eric was nowhere near as good as he thought he was.

2. The Texans want to be the sort of place where players want to come and being a team that treats vets with respect is part of that. Now... Eric felt disrespected by the team because they didn't negotiate with him, they just cut him but I suspect that the team reached out to his agent to get a ballpark of what they were looking at. When they heard it, they decided they were too far apart to even bother.

3. There may not have been any teams that were interested in Eric. We may NOT have been able to get a 7th round pick for him. We MAY have shopped him around and just gotten no interest. It certainly doesn't seem like he's getting much interest now.

b0ng
07-01-2013, 11:36 AM
The only thing I was mad about is they just cut the guy instead of working a trade. Getting a 7th rounder for him is still better than nothing.

I was not a fan of Winston.

Not every player that gets cut is worth draft pick compensation to other teams in the NFL. It's pretty obvious what the NFL thinks of Winston only one year later by him not being on a roster.

Plus that contract he had was fairly expensive for a RT, and I'm not sure anybody would've traded for that last year of the contract (He had signed a 5yr/30mil extension in 2008, was cut in 2012).

welsh texan
07-01-2013, 12:06 PM
I was more focusing on whether or not we'll see a discount for our middle-of-the-road players who look good in our system.

Briesel looked good in our system. Winston looked great in run and acceptable in pass (the final season his pass-pro dropped beyond acceptable)

I don't see how you can trade a $5m contract with 1 year left, so I don't think the argument holds.

Will guys like Jones, Newton etc, the young ones coming through now, be easier to keep hold of like Ike Taylor was for the Steelers because we've built a reputation that teams can't get value for money signing our FA's at the position group.

Ike Taylor is a good comparison I think, performed well in the Steelers' D but no-one wants to pay top dollar for a player who looks good in the Steelers' D because they are known to fail to live up to that when changing scheme.

Obviously that was an exceptionally strong FA group at that position a couple of years back. Which may have contributed.

We've all spoken at length about the topics re-touched on here, but lets not forget that we appear set for the future at both guard spots and center, and at RT we have a wealth of young options from which you'd have to expect someone to step up and perform well at some point. I expect to see a big improvement on the field this coming season and expect that in a years time we'll be sitting pretty across the Oline once again.

badboy
07-01-2013, 01:09 PM
I was more focusing on whether or not we'll see a discount for our middle-of-the-road players who look good in our system.

Briesel looked good in our system. Winston looked great in run and acceptable in pass (the final season his pass-pro dropped beyond acceptable)

I don't see how you can trade a $5m contract with 1 year left, so I don't think the argument holds.

Will guys like Jones, Newton etc, the young ones coming through now, be easier to keep hold of like Ike Taylor was for the Steelers because we've built a reputation that teams can't get value for money signing our FA's at the position group.

Ike Taylor is a good comparison I think, performed well in the Steelers' D but no-one wants to pay top dollar for a player who looks good in the Steelers' D because they are known to fail to live up to that when changing scheme.

Obviously that was an exceptionally strong FA group at that position a couple of years back. Which may have contributed.

We've all spoken at length about the topics re-touched on here, but lets not forget that we appear set for the future at both guard spots and center, and at RT we have a wealth of young options from which you'd have to expect someone to step up and perform well at some point. I expect to see a big improvement on the field this coming season and expect that in a years time we'll be sitting pretty across the Oline once again.

Hope Texans soon have rep for identifying those players over 30 who can be replaced with younger guys with similar skills.

DocBar
07-01-2013, 07:40 PM
I think there are a lot of factors at play:

1. Eric was nowhere near as good as he thought he was.

2. The Texans want to be the sort of place where players want to come and being a team that treats vets with respect is part of that. Now... Eric felt disrespected by the team because they didn't negotiate with him, they just cut him but I suspect that the team reached out to his agent to get a ballpark of what they were looking at. When they heard it, they decided they were too far apart to even bother.

3. There may not have been any teams that were interested in Eric. We may NOT have been able to get a 7th round pick for him. We MAY have shopped him around and just gotten no interest. It certainly doesn't seem like he's getting much interest now.

Not every player that gets cut is worth draft pick compensation to other teams in the NFL. It's pretty obvious what the NFL thinks of Winston only one year later by him not being on a roster.

Plus that contract he had was fairly expensive for a RT, and I'm not sure anybody would've traded for that last year of the contract (He had signed a 5yr/30mil extension in 2008, was cut in 2012). TPN makes some good points and makes me remember that we don't really know squat about what goes on behind the scenes.

You made some good points too, bong.