PDA

View Full Version : Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game


Insideop
06-20-2013, 06:09 AM
Saw this in the chron this morning and didn't see it posted anywhere else. It's a good breakdown of what the Texans need to do to improve their run game this season. http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2013/06/how-the-texans-get-their-run-game-back-on-track-video-analysis-included/

CloakNNNdagger
06-20-2013, 07:46 AM
Thanks for posting this nice analysis. Rep coming your way.

eriadoc
06-20-2013, 09:48 AM
I loved the Kevin Walter mention in the video, LOL.

LZ
06-20-2013, 10:03 AM
I loved the Kevin Walter mention in the video, LOL.

I don't think he was much of a sucker, but it is hard watching coaching tape and not point out the fact that he was a tough mother in the running game, that's for sure. Not worth keeping as a WR, but you get it.

thunderkyss
06-20-2013, 10:26 AM
Saw this in the chron this morning and didn't see it posted anywhere else. It's a good breakdown of what the Texans need to do to improve their run game this season. http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2013/06/how-the-texans-get-their-run-game-back-on-track-video-analysis-included/

Nothing against LZ, but..... after just watching the first video I think there is more to the story than what he covers. For starters, he gets on Derek Newton allowing penetration early in the play. I'm not going to defend Derek Newton, but remember we don't select offensive linemen for their strength like a traditional team. Athleticism is more important & we use scheme to turn that athleticism to our advantage.

Look at how they are lined up pre-snap. The guy that Newton eventually engages is shading the outside shoulder of the TE (Graham??) the only way for Newton to get in position is for that tight end to explode off the line, engage the DE, giving Newton time to get into position. That doesn't happen. The TE instead is focused on his second level responsibility.

Also look at the backside of the play, particularly Wade Smith. He immediately grabs the dirt trying to cut the DT. A few seconds later he's on the ground by himself & the rest of the action is 30 yards to his right. The DT effectively seals off the backside cut. Had WadeSmith been able to stay on his feet, he could have driven the DT to the right opening the cut back, or he could have held up that DT providing a lane.

LZ correctly (imo) identifies the missed block by the RG, but he also includes the center in that error, I don't. I think Meyers did a good job of gaining position on the Mike LB. But a piss poor job of blocking him. He had him, but got shrugged off.

Duane Brown did a good job engaging the backside LB, but I think he spent to much time messing with him. He does a great job of blowing him up but then waits to be re-engaged....... Maybe he's thinking Arian is coming on that backside cut (that isn't there because Wade took a nap), but after that LB got blown up I don't think he could have recovered to make a play. IMO (& I'm just a Monday Morning QB) Duane should have continued down field to put that safety on his as5.

LZ
06-20-2013, 11:27 AM
Nothing against LZ, but..... after just watching the first video I think there is more to the story than what he covers. For starters, he gets on Derek Newton allowing penetration early in the play. I'm not going to defend Derek Newton, but remember we don't select offensive linemen for their strength like a traditional team. Athleticism is more important & we use scheme to turn that athleticism to our advantage.

Look at how they are lined up pre-snap. The guy that Newton eventually engages is shading the outside shoulder of the TE (Graham??) the only way for Newton to get in position is for that tight end to explode off the line, engage the DE, giving Newton time to get into position. That doesn't happen. The TE instead is focused on his second level responsibility.

Also look at the backside of the play, particularly Wade Smith. He immediately grabs the dirt trying to cut the DT. A few seconds later he's on the ground by himself & the rest of the action is 30 yards to his right. The DT effectively seals off the backside cut. Had WadeSmith been able to stay on his feet, he could have driven the DT to the right opening the cut back, or he could have held up that DT providing a lane.

LZ correctly (imo) identifies the missed block by the RG, but he also includes the center in that error, I don't. I think Meyers did a good job of gaining position on the Mike LB. But a piss poor job of blocking him. He had him, but got shrugged off.

Duane Brown did a good job engaging the backside LB, but I think he spent to much time messing with him. He does a great job of blowing him up but then waits to be re-engaged....... Maybe he's thinking Arian is coming on that backside cut (that isn't there because Wade took a nap), but after that LB got blown up I don't think he could have recovered to make a play. IMO (& I'm just a Monday Morning QB) Duane should have continued down field to put that safety on his as5.


And I promise that I mean no offense to you, but I think you are off on quite a bit of this.

Regarding Derek Newton, you let him off the hook WAY too easily here. Whether the man is playing a 5-technique or is shaded outside, the tackles responsibility is to use footwork, technique and core strength to make his block. Eric Winston had to do it, Duane Brown has to do it and so does Derek Newton. With proper footwork and hand placement, it isn't that big of a deal as long as you are strong enough. Just because an olineman plays in zone scheme, that doesn't mean he doesn't have to be functionally strong. That's a complete myth that people tend to perpetrate and allow to live on. If a player isn't strong enough to play the position along the line, he has to be replaced. It's pretty much that simple. On this particular play, if Newton can do one of two things, continue to kick the defender out (which he didn't attempt) or bring his feet with him and move them towards the outside to create wall off defender. He didn't do that either. This was a technique issue as much as anything.

As for Wade Smith, I assume you didn't listen to the video because I address Wade Smith and his failures on the play. His first mistake was that he tried to cut WAY too early. That play on that shade requires him to gain ground on the outside and then aim his cut block on the left leg (inside leg) of T. Knighton, not the right one as he was aiming for.

As for Ben Jones and C. Myers, you have this one wrong. This is a handoff block where Jones is to get across the face of the 3-tech and "hand him to Myers. From that point, it is Jones' responsibility to work up to the MIKE. Obviously, Alualu blew that play up so Myers was just trying to get a piece of the MIKE but it is highly unlikely that the MIKE was his responsibility on that play.

As for Duane Brown, I don't care that much about him on this play since his block or non-block was not going to be a factor based on the missed cut block, the missed combo on the 3-tech and the inability to secure the DE.

b0ng
06-20-2013, 11:34 AM
If LZ leaving the Comicle means more posts like these then I am all for it.

Playoffs
06-20-2013, 11:48 AM
And I promise that I mean no offense to you, but I think you are off on quite a bit of this...Have to agree with LZ, here.

If LZ leaving the Comicle means more posts like these then I am all for it.I'm afraid it'll be just the opposite. This will be one of his last piece's as a Texans beat writer. It's a shame. Dude knows more football -- especially o-line -- than everyone at the Chron and 90% of football writers.

I hope someone locally keeps him on the Texans beat.

paycheck71
06-20-2013, 11:59 AM
I'm afraid it'll be just the opposite.

I think he meant more posts on TT.

thunderkyss
06-20-2013, 12:23 PM
Regarding Derek Newton, you let him off the hook WAY too easily here. Whether the man is playing a 5-technique or is shaded outside, the tackles responsibility is to use footwork, technique and core strength to make his block. Eric Winston had to do it, Duane Brown has to do it and so does Derek Newton. With proper footwork and hand placement, it isn't that big of a deal as long as you are strong enough. Just because an olineman plays in zone scheme, that doesn't mean he doesn't have to be functionally strong. That's a complete myth that people tend to perpetrate and allow to live on.

I'm not letting Newton off the hook. I am not saying our OL do not need to be strong & be able to use their strength. I am not saying Derek Newton shouldn't have to play as well as Eric Winston, Duane Brown, or any other linemen.

The DE in question isn't playing the 5 tech, he's outside the TE. Derek Newton isn't just trying to cross the face of the guy in front of him like Wade should have in that play (& I did add your comments about Wade), He's trying to cross the face of the guy lined up to the guy next to him. Can't be done, not by Winston, not by Brown, not by Myers, not without help from the TE (who is lined up on the DE).

As far as the Jones/Myers double block, again, no one is lined up over Myers, the defender in question is lined up over Jones. It's possible that Jones was supposed to stand up Alualu & pass him off to Myers (the same way I am saying Graham was supposed to do to the DE), & it's possible that Myers was supposed to take on that block.

However, it looked like Myers intentionally engaged Alualu to get him moving to his right, helping Jones' block, then he would get up & block the MIKE...... I'm willing to say your scenario is more right, but in that case two players failed, in my scenario only one guy.

So that brings up the question, why do I expect Newton to pick up the block & Graham to get to the second level, but I expect BenJones to maintain his block while Myers works up to the second level. A big reason is because of how they got off the line. Newton made an "obvious" attempt to get under the DE & Graham made an "obvious" attempt to get to the second level. Jones made an obvious attempt to square up on the defender, Myers made an obvious attempt to get to the second level.

I'm Monday morning QBing, I'm not denying that. It's possible I'm looking at it wrong. But I'm not seeing Newton (won't lie, I'm a big fan) as not "good enough" I'm saying the scheme failed him.

Playoffs
06-20-2013, 12:33 PM
I think he meant more posts on TT.

Oh, yeah, would be nice if he posted here more often. But LZ has always poked his head in to post on TT every now and then. I'd hate to lose him.

LZ
06-20-2013, 12:45 PM
I'm not letting Newton off the hook. I am not saying our OL do not need to be strong & be able to use their strength. I am not saying Derek Newton shouldn't have to play as well as Eric Winston, Duane Brown, or any other linemen.

The DE in question isn't playing the 5 tech, he's outside the TE. Derek Newton isn't just trying to cross the face of the guy in front of him like Wade should have in that play (& I did add your comments about Wade), He's trying to cross the face of the guy lined up to the guy next to him. Can't be done, not by Winston, not by Brown, not by Myers, not without help from the TE (who is lined up on the DE).

As far as the Jones/Myers double block, again, no one is lined up over Myers, the defender in question is lined up over Jones. It's possible that Jones was supposed to stand up Alualu & pass him off to Myers (the same way I am saying Graham was supposed to do to the DE), & it's possible that Myers was supposed to take on that block.

However, it looked like Myers intentionally engaged Alualu to get him moving to his right, helping Jones' block, then he would get up & block the MIKE...... I'm willing to say your scenario is more right, but in that case two players failed, in my scenario only one guy.

So that brings up the question, why do I expect Newton to pick up the block & Graham to get to the second level, but I expect BenJones to maintain his block while Myers works up to the second level. A big reason is because of how they got off the line. Newton made an "obvious" attempt to get under the DE & Graham made an "obvious" attempt to get to the second level. Jones made an obvious attempt to square up on the defender, Myers made an obvious attempt to get to the second level.

I'm Monday morning QBing, I'm not denying that. It's possible I'm looking at it wrong. But I'm not seeing Newton (won't lie, I'm a big fan) as not "good enough" I'm saying the scheme failed him.

Newton has two choices to make depending on how the DE reacts. He can kick him out and create a crease inside or he can engage and get his feet around the other side to wall him off. Unfortunately, he committed to engaging but didn't get feet around him. He has the option of just riding the DE in the direction that he (DE) wants to go. Arian's first read is that DE so he would immediately read him as a kickout block and would keep his next read inside. That is the great thing about the zone scheme for play-side tackles..... you aren't tied to doing just one thing with the defender.

Of course the defender is shaded over Jones. That has nothing to do with it. The Texans can do one of two things there. They can get their guard to get around the face and work up to MIKE or they can block him with RG with Myers getting a securing block (push) on the 3 tech and then working up to the MIKE. In the second scenario, that would allow for a better backside cutback scenario, but that was all shot to hell as soon as Wade Smith approached his cut with such poor technique. The more I look at where Alualu is shaded here as 3 tech, it certainly is possible that Myers was just going to secure and get to 2nd level on MIKE. You might be right on that. The problem is that the right side (Jones and Newton) did not do their jobs on this play.

And the scheme definitely did not fail Newton. His read should have been to get on the inside shoulder of the DE and drive him outside to open up the crease between DE and DT. That was the right read. He made the wrong decision. Once he made the decision to engage and get the DE turned, then he has to use the technique he's taught which is to play with lower pad level and then get his feet to the other side of the defender.

thunderkyss
06-20-2013, 01:14 PM
And the scheme definitely did not fail Newton. His read should have been to get on the inside shoulder of the DE and drive him outside to open up the crease between DE and DT. That was the right read. He made the wrong decision. Once he made the decision to engage and get the DE turned, then he has to use the technique he's taught which is to play with lower pad level and then get his feet to the other side of the defender.

That sounds reasonable.

However, if that was the right read, why do you fault him for allowing the DE to get to wide?

Getting moved backwards, the penetration I can understand that as a reason that play failed. But how is getting "too wide" a problem if his first read was to push the defender wide?

My original comments were based on you saying his responsibility was to secure the edge. To do that, the TE has to do a lot more than what he did.

Thanks for your reply.

Rey
06-20-2013, 01:15 PM
Now, ZBS struggles against penetrating fronts and as an OL you don't want to allow too much push up field BUT you will not be able to hook all OLB's/DE's simply because some will be aligned too wide or they just jump outside too quickly.

Now ideally that is what you'd want because it's the easiest for the RB to read and it gives him the most space to operate, but like I said there are times where it's just not realistic to expect the Tackle/TE to hook the end man on the LOS.

What you are supposed to do is take your normal steps as if you are trying to hook them (Bucket step, Drop step, Deep zone step...whatever they call it), but if that DE or OLB jumps to far outside you are taught to push them to the sideline and the RB is supposed to make the cut inside of you.

That is the staple of the ZBS. The cut back. If the offense takes their steps correctly and makes their blocks the defense is supposed to have a difficult time stopping the play because "no matter what they do, they're wrong". As an Offense, you really don't know exactly how the play will unfold until the ball is hiked and everyone is in motion.

All that said, on that particular play shown in the video Newton's steps were terrible. Awful. The EZ view is the best way to look at ZBS plays.

But my issue on that play is with Wade Smith. Had he done a better job with his guy, Arian would have had one guy to beat on a cut back attempt.

You see that most of the guys on the playside and Chris Myers had realized that the defense had flowed really hard to the sideline and they began to simply use their own momentum against them and push them to the sideline.

Duane Brown was perfect on the play. OD and KW were good too, but Wade Smith basically did nothing.

Rey
06-20-2013, 01:19 PM
Duane Brown did a good job engaging the backside LB, but I think he spent to much time messing with him. He does a great job of blowing him up but then waits to be re-engaged....... Maybe he's thinking Arian is coming on that backside cut (that isn't there because Wade took a nap), but after that LB got blown up I don't think he could have recovered to make a play. IMO (& I'm just a Monday Morning QB) Duane should have continued down field to put that safety on his as5.

Duane did his job perfectly. Cut back should have been there based on how the defense reacted to the play. Arian would have had one defender to beat on the cut back had Wade Smith done a better job.

thunderkyss
06-20-2013, 01:24 PM
All that said, on that particular play shown in the video Newton's steps were terrible. Awful. The EZ view is the best way to look at ZBS plays.


Great post.

Now what did you not like about Newton's steps that were "terrible & aweful"

Looks like he tried to secure the edge, like he squared up on the DE, but that doesn't make sense with the rest of the line pushing everyone his way.

What you're saying, & what LZ is saying about "helping" the defense to the sideline makes sense, is it possible that Newton heard the call wrong? Like maybe he thought it would be an inside zone?

LZ
06-20-2013, 01:25 PM
That sounds reasonable.

However, if that was the right read, why do you fault him for allowing the DE to get to wide?

Getting moved backwards, the penetration I can understand that as a reason that play failed. But how is getting "too wide" a problem if his first read was to push the defender wide?

My original comments were based on you saying his responsibility was to secure the edge. To do that, the TE has to do a lot more than what he did.

Thanks for your reply.

I fault him for allowing the DE to continue to widen out. Once he decides to turn him, it is his job to wall the defender off in order to create and edge for Arian to turn. He never did that. He allowed the DE to keep on widening out. Giving up penetration was a massive issue for Newton though. It is something that concerns the Texans staff, I can promise you that.

And as for securing the edge, that means either kicking out or turning defender. It's Newton's choice. Once he decides to turn him, then it is his job to turn him. He didn't do that. He didn't execute, but either did Jones or Wade. That was the point of using that particular play. It also had LBs playing downhill. I wanted to find a play that had as many negatives as I had covered in the blog in order to illustrate the point without having to make 4 videos.

LZ
06-20-2013, 01:27 PM
Now, ZBS struggles against penetrating fronts and as an OL you don't want to allow too much push up field BUT you will not be able to hook all OLB's/DE's simply because some will be aligned too wide or they just jump outside too quickly.

Now ideally that is what you'd want because it's the easiest for the RB to read and it gives him the most space to operate, but like I said there are times where it's just not realistic to expect the Tackle/TE to hook the end man on the LOS.

What you are supposed to do is take your normal steps as if you are trying to hook them (Bucket step, Drop step, Deep zone step...whatever they call it), but if that DE or OLB jumps to far outside you are taught to push them to the sideline and the RB is supposed to make the cut inside of you.

That is the staple of the ZBS. The cut back. If the offense takes their steps correctly and makes their blocks the defense is supposed to have a difficult time stopping the play because "no matter what they do, they're wrong". As an Offense, you really don't know exactly how the play will unfold until the ball is hiked and everyone is in motion.

All that said, on that particular play shown in the video Newton's steps were terrible. Awful. The EZ view is the best way to look at ZBS plays.

But my issue on that play is with Wade Smith. Had he done a better job with his guy, Arian would have had one guy to beat on a cut back attempt.

You see that most of the guys on the playside and Chris Myers had realized that the defense had flowed really hard to the sideline and they began to simply use their own momentum against them and push them to the sideline.

Duane Brown was perfect on the play. OD and KW were good too, but Wade Smith basically did nothing.

Great stuff, Rey. Dead on. And as I'm sure you saw, his aim point and decision to launch so early were way, way off for such a savvy veteran.

eriadoc
06-20-2013, 01:37 PM
LZ, please consider adding TT to your routine as much as Twitter or the like. We need and appreciate the insight around here. Thanks for your time!

badboy
06-20-2013, 03:08 PM
Long time Chronicle subscriber but no more. Signed up for the electronic version and did not work despite two techies trying to help. Told me an advance tech to call me same day and after a week, I canceled. Then I heard about LZ leaving and you should have heard me telling the next person trying to sign me up what I thought. "Not your fault but here goes..."

Let's not forget after only 17 offensive plays first year, Newton basically was a rookie last season. Compare his first true season with DB and you come away smiling. Add to that the musical chairs at RG and he did amazingly well imo. This season depends on Brooks claiming the RG and someone, Maybe Q replacing Smith 2014. Barring injuries we should see a much better, more consistent Oline this year.

Playoffs
06-20-2013, 03:18 PM
Now, ZBS struggles against penetrating fronts and as an OL you don't want to allow too much push up field...

Not to go all Rome on you, but rack him! MSR

Rey
06-20-2013, 03:28 PM
Great post.

Now what did you not like about Newton's steps that were "terrible & aweful"


His first step should be wide and deep. His second step should not cross over his first step. He should try to stay square to the LOS.

It looks like he barely gained any ground with that first step. His footwork looked like someone just starting out right there with very little coaching.

I wish I had some film of when Alex Gibbs was here to see if the technique was different. I'm not really a fan of what Meyers did right there either nor the RG....

But the play could have still worked if Wade Smith had done anything at all.


Wade has got to do more besides come off the ball and flop on the ground like a fish there.


I don't want to compare my coaching to NFL coaching, but I had a damn good coach and we ran the exact same scheme. We weren't allowed to cut the first level of defense unless we had them hooked...If we had them completely hooked then we could cut them to stop back side pursuit.

But if we didn't absolutely have them hooked our coach preferred that we stay on our feet and stay engaged because we could just "push them past the hole" or keep pushing them to the sideline and the RB could cut off of us.

For instance...If Wade just engaged the DT, even if he couldn't hook him, he could have washed him straight down the line into all that other traffic...That would have caused a pile up right there and made the read easier for Arian.


But instead Wade goes for the ill advised cut block there and not only does it allow his man to take away the cut back, but now he is on the ground in the way.


But I have no idea what or how the Texans are taught. I'm just giving my input based on what I know from when I played.

Rey
06-20-2013, 03:33 PM
Great stuff, Rey. Dead on. And as I'm sure you saw, his aim point and decision to launch so early were way, way off for such a savvy veteran.

Yeah...I wish I knew what he was thinking there. Even if he thinks he's going to have some help from Meyers I wouldn't think you want him to try to make that cut block how he attempted to make it.

I know the blocking isn't going to be perfect on every play, but it's the complete screw ups that usually wreck plays.

76Texan
06-20-2013, 05:25 PM
Newton's first step wasn't good, but IMO, it was not why the entire play was shut down.

On an outside zone run, I would think that the RB is taught to chose his hole.
If he can't see the inside number of the SDE, he should go inside the RT.

Foster wanted too, but the hole just wasn't there due to the weak play by the three interior guys.

Newton, IMO, was supposed to maintain the gap horizontally first, to let Foster decide whether to go to the outside or to the inside.

He was too far away from the SDE to square up on him quickly enough; Newton was already at a disadvantage from the get go.

It was a failure at all 4 spots, but the most important one should always be where the double team occurs (Jones and Myers).

They simply have to win at the POA, but they didn't.

LZ
06-20-2013, 05:56 PM
LZ, please consider adding TT to your routine as much as Twitter or the like. We need and appreciate the insight around here. Thanks for your time!

I plan on it.

Rey
06-20-2013, 06:08 PM
Newton's first step wasn't good, but IMO, it was not why the entire play was shut down.

On an outside zone run, I would think that the RB is taught to chose his hole.
If he can't see the inside number of the SDE, he should go inside the RT.

Foster wanted too, but the hole just wasn't there due to the weak play by the three interior guys.

Newton, IMO, was supposed to maintain the gap horizontally first, to let Foster decide whether to go to the outside or to the inside.

He was too far away from the SDE to square up on him quickly enough; Newton was already at a disadvantage from the get go.

It was a failure at all 4 spots, but the most important one should always be where the double team occurs (Jones and Myers).

They simply have to win at the POA, but they didn't.

I don't think I agree with that, but I'm not sure because I can't really understand your wording...

76Texan
06-21-2013, 12:22 AM
I'm not letting Newton off the hook. I am not saying our OL do not need to be strong & be able to use their strength. I am not saying Derek Newton shouldn't have to play as well as Eric Winston, Duane Brown, or any other linemen.

The DE in question isn't playing the 5 tech, he's outside the TE. Derek Newton isn't just trying to cross the face of the guy in front of him like Wade should have in that play (& I did add your comments about Wade), He's trying to cross the face of the guy lined up to the guy next to him. Can't be done, not by Winston, not by Brown, not by Myers, not without help from the TE (who is lined up on the DE).

As far as the Jones/Myers double block, again, no one is lined up over Myers, the defender in question is lined up over Jones. It's possible that Jones was supposed to stand up Alualu & pass him off to Myers (the same way I am saying Graham was supposed to do to the DE), & it's possible that Myers was supposed to take on that block.

However, it looked like Myers intentionally engaged Alualu to get him moving to his right, helping Jones' block, then he would get up & block the MIKE...... I'm willing to say your scenario is more right, but in that case two players failed, in my scenario only one guy.

So that brings up the question, why do I expect Newton to pick up the block & Graham to get to the second level, but I expect BenJones to maintain his block while Myers works up to the second level. A big reason is because of how they got off the line. Newton made an "obvious" attempt to get under the DE & Graham made an "obvious" attempt to get to the second level. Jones made an obvious attempt to square up on the defender, Myers made an obvious attempt to get to the second level.

I'm Monday morning QBing, I'm not denying that. It's possible I'm looking at it wrong. But I'm not seeing Newton (won't lie, I'm a big fan) as not "good enough" I'm saying the scheme failed him.

I tend to agree more with TK on this one.

From what (I think) I understand, on the outside zone run, when the TE is covered (by the SDE in this case), his job is to step down on the SDE to prevent him from getting to the edge.
If the SDE slants to the inside (which he didn't), OD ran release to the SAM sooner to climb to the SAM, since he (the SDE) would be leaving OD's area to enter Newton's.

But as the SDE played to attack the edge, OD needs to wait until he feels pressure from the uncovered RT Newton before he releases.
This allows a smooth transition so that Newton can have time to get there to square up on the defender to perform the necessary reach block.

Similarly, the RG Jones, who was covered by the SDT, needs to do the same.
Depending on which way the SDT attacks, either Jones or Myers would climb to the MIKE.

But Jones lost his initial battle quickly and got stuck, leaving Myers with no choice (as the SDT) remains in his area.

If you watch the play carefully, Foster wanted to go to the inside initially, but there was no seam.

The cut back lane, in the meantime, was lost due to Smith missing the cut block.

Play shut down.

thunderkyss
06-21-2013, 08:27 AM
The cut back lane, in the meantime, was lost due to Smith missing the cut block.

Play shut down.

At least we all agree that Wade screwed the pooch.

What I don't understand is why we are so focused on the right side of the line. IMO, over the course of the year, Ben Jones was much more consistent in doing his job than Wade was in doing his job.

I can understand there will be some growing pains with Ben Jones & Derek Newton. They're not going to come in & play as well as Briesel & Winston. But we should expect better from Wade.

"But Wade went to the ProBowl"

I honestly don't remember seeing Wade's name in the voting. It was Antoine Caldwell's & we joked about him not even playing.

Brandon Brooks is bigger & stronger than Ben Jones. He showed that he can play well enough to start (I think anyway). But I also think Ben Jones made a strong case to continue as a starter.

This is the second year in a row that I believe Wade has put out a less than acceptable performance. If I were king, Brooks would be my starting LG, Jones would be my starting RG.

Just like we are seeing a drop off in play from Briesel to Jones/Brooks, we're going to see that same drop off if Jones doesn't start & comes in to play Center when needed. I think he's getting excellent training being on the line next to Myers where he can see what Myers is seeing as he makes the calls.

We should continue to look for another Guard/Center ala Cody White if he becomes a better Guard than Ben Jones, then he starts & Jones goes to the bench.

But right now, our OL need a RT, RG, LG

I think Newton, Jones, & Brooks will play much better in their second season. I don't think Wade Smith is going to play better in his 10th. We're paying him a lot of money that can be used elsewhere & he's only turned in one acceptable season to date.

76Texan
06-21-2013, 05:04 PM
At least we all agree that Wade screwed the pooch.

What I don't understand is why we are so focused on the right side of the line. IMO, over the course of the year, Ben Jones was much more consistent in doing his job than Wade was in doing his job.

I can understand there will be some growing pains with Ben Jones & Derek Newton. They're not going to come in & play as well as Briesel & Winston. But we should expect better from Wade.

"But Wade went to the ProBowl"

I honestly don't remember seeing Wade's name in the voting. It was Antoine Caldwell's & we joked about him not even playing.

Brandon Brooks is bigger & stronger than Ben Jones. He showed that he can play well enough to start (I think anyway). But I also think Ben Jones made a strong case to continue as a starter.

This is the second year in a row that I believe Wade has put out a less than acceptable performance. If I were king, Brooks would be my starting LG, Jones would be my starting RG.

Just like we are seeing a drop off in play from Briesel to Jones/Brooks, we're going to see that same drop off if Jones doesn't start & comes in to play Center when needed. I think he's getting excellent training being on the line next to Myers where he can see what Myers is seeing as he makes the calls.

We should continue to look for another Guard/Center ala Cody White if he becomes a better Guard than Ben Jones, then he starts & Jones goes to the bench.

But right now, our OL need a RT, RG, LG

I think Newton, Jones, & Brooks will play much better in their second season. I don't think Wade Smith is going to play better in his 10th. We're paying him a lot of money that can be used elsewhere & he's only turned in one acceptable season to date.

What I think I saw was that in 2011, the line played quite well together; the weakness of one guy on a certain play, was quickly covered up by the another.
On top of that, the Texans didn't run much outside zone in the previous years, and the opponents didn't anticipate that Foster can be that quick to the outside. Success builds confidence, and so, the running game flourished.

I differed with TK here, in that I thought Wade Smith had a pretty good year in 2011 - his best in a Texans uni, which brought him the PRO-Bowl accolade a year later. So did Myers, when he was allowed to do what he does best, which is to get to the second and third level. When we see Myers get to the third level, it means that the whole line is working in sync (at least, theoretically), and the chance for the RB to bust a long run is good.

The Texans ran into WAY to many negative plays last year to either side, it put a serious question mark as to the effectiveness of the zone scheme. That was not supposed to happen.

The left side was supposed to be the strength, it wasn't.
It was as inconsistent as the right side.
Myers did not have a good year either, in the middle.

The back side cut block, whether the run is to the left or to the right, whether the strong side is to the left or the right, is an important element in the ZBS;
It was weak; OD was weak as a blocker; Casey was also weak.

It was really easy to see why Foster didn't have a better year

In the run game, the right side had its problem, but it was to be expected.
It was the left side that underperformed, because it was supposed to be the strength, only it wasn't.

steelbtexan
06-23-2013, 08:38 PM
I think I will trust the evals of LZ, (NFL OL Coaches son) and Rey (HS Coach) over 76/TK's. (No offense guys)

DocBar
06-23-2013, 08:44 PM
I think I will trust the evals of LZ, (NFL OL Coaches son) and Rey (HS Coach) over 76/TK's. (No offense guys)

76 nailed it on KJ. When all others would've ran him out of town on a rail, 76 stood behind him and took much criticism for it.

Now 1 good year does not a shutdown corner make, but it's a start and one hell of an improvement. I'll give him some leeway.

thunderkyss
06-23-2013, 10:51 PM
I think I will trust the evals of LZ, (NFL OL Coaches son) and Rey (HS Coach) over 76/TK's. (No offense guys)

I'm not trying to compete with anybody, just trying to understand what I'm seeing. I enjoy the back & forth with people that know.

That's how we learn.

But 76 does bring up some good points. Everybody wants to point to the right side of the line. When we lost Briesel & Winston, we all knew the right side was going to be an issue. Harping on it is kinda Mr obvious to me.

The left side was supposed to be a strength, we sent 74 & 76 to the pro bowl. While they may have performed better than the right side, they were no where near as good as they should have been.

76Texan
06-24-2013, 11:21 AM
Like TK, I'm only interested in breaking down a given play to see if I can tell why it works (or doesn't work.)

There are many websites and video clips out there that talk about the zone blocking scheme. I just pick out the ones from coaches, especially those from Gibbs (because even though other teams teach the ZBS- including college teams - they don't necessary teach the exact same thing; there are several reasons why.)

One such video is this one:
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=KNa3gZfQfH0&feature=youtu.be&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKNa3gZfQfH0%26feature%3 Dyoutu.be

That one video could take days to understand; and I'm not kidding, there are things Gibbs said that are impossible to understand , and I've read a lot about the ZBS ever since Kubiak came on board.

On this particular play, the LOS is around the 32-1/2 yd line.
Foster ended up gaining a yard or a little more. It was not even a negative play.
We've seen plenty of negative plays.

To be honest, I think Gibbs would have ripped Foster just like he said he would rip Terrell Davis in one of the plays in that video.

IMHO, Foster should have taken the seam (inside Newton, behind Jones and Myers.) Foster would probably gained about the same, but that was only because Smith had whiffed so badly on the back side cut block.
This is explained here:
http://prostylerunninggame.blogspot.com/2011/11/outside-zone-running-back.html?m=1
The first example coincides with the play in discussion, against a 4-3 Over Front.
Foster's first read is the 7-tech (the SDE).
Since the SDE kept outside leverage, Foster needs to go immediately to the next O-lineman to the inside (the RG Jones).
His options now are either between Newton and Jones (the seam) or to cut back inside Jones.

As I've said, the TE, with the SDE either head up or slightly shaded to the outside, should take a drop step and aim at the outside shoulder of the SDE.
He needs to wait until Newton arrives, and together, create some forward movement on the line before climbing to the SAM linebacker - unless the SDE slants hard to the inside (and therefore leaving the TE's area from the get-go, which the SDE did not.)

This is the concept of the ZBS; you have to block your area.
When there's a man in your area, you have to block him.
Watch the video and concentrate solely on the TEs to see what they do when he's covered (having a D-lineman head up on him or slightly shaded.)

Some coaches have a teaching point; there's a 50-80% chance that the TE would have to take on the block. He's not free to release to the second level straight away.

From the look of it, I believe OD didn't fulfill his job description.

What I think Newton did wrong, as I mentioned before, was in first step.
Unless there was something else going on that I'm not aware of, I believe his first step should have been with his right foot (toward the play side).
With a bucket step, he can now aim at the SDE's inside number/shoulder.
Newton and OD then work in tandem for a fraction of a second to get the movement needed at the LOS.
With the SAM flowing to the edge, it's OD's job to climb on him - which is the case here.

Newton lined up at the 31+ yd line; that was where he stayed throughout the play. The Texans did not get a push here, but they didn't allow penetration as one's eyes were led to believe.

76Texan
06-24-2013, 11:39 AM
On Jones' part, I believe his call is to take a slide step and aim at the SDT's outside shoulder. Jones reached his aiming point for a fraction of a second, but couldn't maintain his position to perform the necessary stretch block (partially because Myers were very quick and strong to the inside shoulder of the SDT before climbing the MIKE.

It looks like the SDT got his hands on Jones first, and jolted him backward a step or two while Myers arrived to the block.

This probably prompted Foster to try to see if he can get to the edge, as the cut back lane was taken away with Smith's missing the block.

thunderkyss
06-24-2013, 01:38 PM
Newton lined up at the 31+ yd line; that was where he stayed throughout the play. The Texans did not get a push here, but they didn't allow penetration as one's eyes were led to believe.

MSR, great post, lots of good stuff.. really enjoyed the links. Thanks.

Rey
06-24-2013, 02:32 PM
76 nailed it on KJ. When all others would've ran him out of town on a rail, 76 stood behind him and took much criticism for it.


I'm not going to go down the whole KJ thing again, but I still don't agree with his analysis from back then that KJ was being failed by the defenders around him.

My argument was never that he wouldn't get better. In fact I loved the KJ pick when it was made. I thought he was a good player.

But whether it was coaching, being thrown out too soon, or whatever...Kareem made a lot of mistakes as a rookie and was not a good player being made to look bad because his safeties weren't good.

Both of those safeties were fine the year before and one of them just started the whole year for a superbowl team.

Kareem has improved. He was not always this good of a player.

Rey
06-24-2013, 02:36 PM
I'm not trying to compete with anybody, just trying to understand what I'm seeing. I enjoy the back & forth with people that know.

That's how we learn.

But 76 does bring up some good points. Everybody wants to point to the right side of the line. When we lost Briesel & Winston, we all knew the right side was going to be an issue. Harping on it is kinda Mr obvious to me.

The left side was supposed to be a strength, we sent 74 & 76 to the pro bowl. While they may have performed better than the right side, they were no where near as good as they should have been.


I didn't read every word of 76's posts, but I didn't see where we differed in our opinions of the right side too much.

IMO, the play in question mainly didn't work because Wade Smith did nothing at all.

I think the right side could have been better, but Wade Smith was the worst player on the OL on that particular play.

thunderkyss
06-24-2013, 02:58 PM
I'm not going to go down the whole KJ thing again, but I still don't agree with his analysis from back then that KJ was being failed by the defenders around him.

But whether it was coaching, being thrown out too soon, or whatever...Kareem made a lot of mistakes as a rookie and was not a good player being made to look bad because his safeties weren't good.

Both of those safeties were fine the year before and one of them just started the whole year for a superbowl team.

Kareem has improved. He was not always this good of a player.

I believe 76 & I shared the same opinion on KJ & it wasn't that he thought KJ looked so bad because of the defenders around him. There were times when that was the case & 76 would provide his take on those plays. Often with screen shots & explaining the technique Kj was playing along with the coverage he "assumed" the defense was in.

Kj made a lot of mistakes, the argument there, was that as a rookie we should expect him to make a lot of mistakes. We should understand the position he was put in, consistently in man coverage on the edges which is unusual for a rookie. We talk about how Kyle Wilson & Devin McCourty were used as contrast.

Just like Wade Smith isn't performing as well as he had in the past, those two safeties failed big time. We asked Pollard to something he was not good at & Eugene Wilson lost a step.

Maybe my expectations for Kj were too low. I expected some trouble... not as much as what we saw, but I could still tell he was a solid player who generally got better from week to week. I did not expect him to be a bad ass out the gate like Cushing or Demeco, or Jj Watt. If that was what I was expecting I'd probably have been down on Kj as much as everyone else.

But even with the success McCourty was having in New England, I felt that was the exception to the rule. Most NFL CBs do not have that kind of success from day one.

thunderkyss
06-24-2013, 03:10 PM
I didn't read every word of 76's posts, but I didn't see where we differed in our opinions of the right side too much.

.


The only place I disagreed with LZ, was saying there was no way for Newton to make that block without help from the TE (I thought it was Graham). 76 agreed that would have been a totally different play had the TE did his job before slipping to the second level.

Rey
06-24-2013, 03:19 PM
The only place I disagreed with LZ, was saying there was no way for Newton to make that block without help from the TE (I thought it was Graham). 76 agreed that would have been a totally different play had the TE did his job before slipping to the second level.

I don't know if I understand what you're saying right here.

LZ is right. The TE has to help on the DE before going to the next level. That would be an extremely hard block to make if the TE doesn't help. He did exactly what he was supposed to do.

If you're saying that the TE shouldn't help there then you are entering a new territory and saying Kubiak isn't having guys block right schematically as that is exactly what the TE is supposed to be doing. Besides being familiar with the system, you can look at the film and see that.


But then in your second sentence it seems like you're saying he should have helped longer. Which I also disagree with. The TE right there did a fine job.

thunderkyss
06-24-2013, 03:27 PM
I don't know if I understand what you're saying right here.

LZ is right. The TE has to help on the DE before going to the next level. That would be an extremely hard block to make if the TE doesn't help. He did exactly what he was supposed to do.

LZ didn't say the TE had any fault at all. That was my biggest disagreement with him. He accused me of letting Newton off the hook (which I didn't, I agree Newton played it poorly).





But as the SDE played to attack the edge, OD needs to wait until he feels pressure from the uncovered RT Newton before he releases.
This allows a smooth transition so that Newton can have time to get there to square up on the defender to perform the necessary reach block.


76 agrees the TE did not do his job on that play.

thunderkyss
06-24-2013, 03:30 PM
Question.... I'm seeing the terms "Step-Down" & "Bucket-Step" in a few posts.

What does that mean?

The Pencil Neck
06-24-2013, 03:40 PM
Question.... I'm seeing the terms "Step-Down" & "Bucket-Step" in a few posts.

What does that mean?

The bucket step is a diagonal step backward to open the hips.

The Pencil Neck
06-24-2013, 03:41 PM
Question.... I'm seeing the terms "Step-Down" & "Bucket-Step" in a few posts.

What does that mean?

I think this covers it:

A discussion of the ZBS. (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/5/27/4363750/zone-blocking-running-football-breakdown-highlights-analysis-diagram) There's a chart in there that shows the bucket step.

thunderkyss
06-24-2013, 03:49 PM
I think this covers it:

A discussion of the ZBS. (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/5/27/4363750/zone-blocking-running-football-breakdown-highlights-analysis-diagram) There's a chart in there that shows the bucket step.

MSR & all that. Thanks.

Rey
06-24-2013, 03:50 PM
LZ didn't say the TE had any fault at all. That was my biggest disagreement with him. He accused me of letting Newton off the hook (which I didn't, I agree Newton played it poorly).





76 agrees the TE did not do his job on that play.

If Newton takes a better initial and second step there, He'd have better positioning on the DE thus allowing the TE to come off sooner.

Not going to get into the feeling pressure non-sense as I'm not even sure how 76 can say that the TE didn't feel Newton in position to take the DE over.

I agree with LZ. The TE did his job well. He didn't let the DE jump outside of him. Besides him turning his shoulders inside towards the play he looked good IMO. But I don't know if that's something that the coaches in the NFL want them to do since the athletes are bigger, stronger faster....

But really that would just be a small thing I'd point out as the TE was good on that play. He did his job almost perfectly. Newton has to take a better step and get in position to take that block over better.

Rey
06-24-2013, 03:53 PM
I think this covers it:

A discussion of the ZBS. (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/5/27/4363750/zone-blocking-running-football-breakdown-highlights-analysis-diagram) There's a chart in there that shows the bucket step.

Never seen that link before, but it's crazy how information has made it's way around the football world. I first learned this stuff over 10 years ago..

E: Bucket Step - This is a six inch step backward where the lineman opens his hips. It is used for an outside zone play and or when the blocker is uncovered.

This describes Newton on that play and he failed to take the correct step based on what I saw on the film.

HOU-TEX
06-24-2013, 04:16 PM
If Newton takes a better initial and second step there, He'd have better positioning on the DE thus allowing the TE to come off sooner.

Not going to get into the feeling pressure non-sense as I'm not even sure how 76 can say that the TE didn't feel Newton in position to take the DE over.

I agree with LZ. The TE did his job well. He didn't let the DE jump outside of him. Besides him turning his shoulders inside towards the play he looked good IMO. But I don't know if that's something that the coaches in the NFL want them to do since the athletes are bigger, stronger faster....

But really that would just be a small thing I'd point out as the TE was good on that play. He did his job almost perfectly. Newton has to take a better step and get in position to take that block over better.

I agree with pretty much everything you and LZ have said throughout this thread. The only additional thing (being nitpicky here) that I would've hoped to see from the TE is a bit more of an impact on his initial chip. The DE didn't appear to sway from his path. Maybe it was due to Newton not engaging quick enough?

Jones didn't look great either. But y'all are right, if either Newton or Smith done their job it would've been a good play

Rey
06-24-2013, 04:49 PM
I would've hoped to see from the TE is a bit more of an impact on his initial chip. The DE didn't appear to sway from his path. Maybe it was due to Newton not engaging quick enough?


One thing to keep in mind is that the TE is really there to briefly help Newton based on how the play unfolded. It's not a true double team. He has to take his steps and Newton needs to take his. He can't stay there too long or get too involved with that DE because he has to get up to the next level and pick up that LB.

JMO, but I think what he did there should have been good enough had Newton taken better steps and gotten to the TE's shoulder.

Honestly, Newton should have been able to hook that DE and the ball should have gone outside of him and maybe right behind the TE.



But he didn't do a good job there and the DE was able to close that hole off...at that point Newton just stays engaged with him and continues to block him. That would have been ok had Wade Smith done anything on the back side. The play would have still produced some positive yards...

I can point out a few things I didn't like that they did on the play, but the TE would be the least of my worries there.

If it were man blocking...Then yeah...The TE needs to stay on the DE a lot longer...And Newtons steps wouldn't have been as detrimental...

But in Newton's defense, ZBS is not easy to adjust to if you haven't done much of it. You're used to firing of the ball and pushing to get movement. Taking steps to outflank or out-leverage a defender takes some getting used to. It takes a while to get used to because as a lineman it doesn't really feel natural to step backwards and to the side to block a guy on a running play.

Normally big guys used to plowing guys take the longest to adjust. Unless they've had some ZBS experience...Whereas smaller quicker guys embrace that blocking style more quickly because they finally get to use their quickness to their advantage. They don't have to plow into guys and try to push them 3 yards off the LOS...They can use quickness and leverage to block guys. But like LZ of course you still need strength***

And I know he was there the year before, but he wasn't getting starters reps in practice and still...It just takes a while.

Would have been nice to see Newton this year to see how he progressed.



***This is one reason I'm excited about Brooks on the OL. He has a chance to be dominant in this scheme. With his strength if he can master the footwork and show good quickness and agility, you could see some gaping holes being opened up on that right side.

thunderkyss
06-24-2013, 05:03 PM
If Newton takes a better initial and second step there, He'd have better positioning on the DE thus allowing the TE to come off sooner.

But really that would just be a small thing I'd point out as the TE was good on that play. He did his job almost perfectly. Newton has to take a better step and get in position to take that block over better.

& I'm fine with that. I don't claim to be an expert, but this thread would have been dull & short had no one disagreed with LZ & all the discussion since would not have happened. But I feel others (as well as myself) has benefited from the discussion.

Now, if you go back to the video, LZ isn't saying that Newton did a poor job because of his footwork or inability to get on that block. He's saying that Newton allowed too much penetration. But as 76 says, Newton starts at the 31 yard line & he finishes on the 31 yard line.

Through the first minute of the video he continues to say that Newton failed to stop the DE from widening the play... but everything I've read in this thread says his job was to drive the DE to the sideline. Both statements can not be true.

Listening to LZ I get the impression that Newton was supposed to cross the face of the DE & wall him off from getting to the sideline. IMO, there is no way he can do that unless the TE blocks longer & harder than what he did.

Newton's footwork may have been poor, he may not have gotten to the block on time. But if 76 is right & he did not give up ground beyond the 31 yard line & he drove the DE to the sideline parallel to the LOS, Newton recovered pretty well.

thunderkyss
06-24-2013, 05:10 PM
JMO, but I think what he did there should have been good enough had Newton taken better steps and gotten to the TE's shoulder.

Honestly, Newton should have been able to hook that DE and the ball should have gone outside of him and maybe right behind the TE.



But he didn't do a good job there and the DE was able to close that hole off...at that point Newton just stays engaged with him and continues to block him. That would have been ok had Wade Smith done anything on the back side. The play would have still produced some positive yards...


That makes sense, if by "hook" him you mean that Newton should have been able to get to the DE's outside shoulder & slowed his progress to the sideline, & not completely stop it (which is what I'm understanding LZ is saying).

The Pencil Neck
06-24-2013, 05:11 PM
Through the first minute of the video he continues to say that Newton failed to stop the DE from widening the play... but everything I've read in this thread says his job was to drive the DE to the sideline. Both statements can not be true.

Listening to LZ I get the impression that Newton was supposed to cross the face of the DE & wall him off from getting to the sideline. IMO, there is no way he can do that unless the TE blocks longer & harder than what he did.

Newton's footwork may have been poor, he may not have gotten to the block on time. But if 76 is right & he did not give up ground beyond the 31 yard line & he drove the DE to the sideline parallel to the LOS, Newton recovered pretty well.

Oh... yeah... no.

I should probably go back and look at the play before saying this but I'm at work and need to hurry.

Newton was supposed to drive him out to the sideline to allow Arian to cut inside of Newton. But instead, Newton allowed the DE to stay relatively inside and only slowly push outside, which forced Arian OUTSIDE instead of inside... in other words, widening out the play.

EDIT:
OTOH, Rey is saying that he should have hooked him and driven him inside to allow Arian outside.

Basically, it's got to be one or the other.

Rey
06-24-2013, 05:12 PM
That makes sense, if by "hook" him you mean that Newton should have been able to get to the DE's outside shoulder & slowed his progress to the sideline, & not completely stop it (which is what I'm understanding LZ is saying).

Pretty much.

Rey
06-24-2013, 05:15 PM
Oh... yeah... no.

I should probably go back and look at the play before saying this but I'm at work and need to hurry.

Newton was supposed to drive him out to the sideline to allow Arian to cut inside of Newton. But instead, Newton allowed the DE to stay relatively inside and only slowly push outside, which forced Arian OUTSIDE instead of inside... in other words, widening out the play.

EDIT:
OTOH, Rey is saying that he should have hooked him and driven him inside to allow Arian outside.

Basically, it's got to be one or the other.


It's both actually...

Had Newton taken the correct steps he should have gotten to the DE's outside shoulder and hooked him. But because he didn't do that and he was kind of square on the DE he should have continued to wash him to the sideline.

That's the thing with ZBS....You can start out with something in mind and end up doing something completely different based on what the defense does or in this case (IMO) not taking the correct step...

Rey
06-24-2013, 05:23 PM
Listening to LZ I get the impression that Newton was supposed to cross the face of the DE & wall him off from getting to the sideline. IMO, there is no way he can do that unless the TE blocks longer & harder than what he did.


I can't really say anything other than you are incorrect. I've performed that very same block hunderds of times. I've been the guy that's covered and had to perform what my coach called a half bench for the guard to take over and for me to go up to the LB and I've been in the position of having to take over a guy allowing the TE or guard to go up to the next level.

That was more than enough help IMO. Notice I said half bench...Half bench is when you only put one hand on the guy which should be enough help. The TE actually gets two hands on the guy.

I'm telling you, Newton should have EASILY hooked that guy there....But since he didn't he's got to recognize quickly that he isn't going to hook him and that's when he is supposed to use the defenders momentum against him and say "ok, you wanna go outside...Let me help you"...That's when he should have began pushing him TO the sideline which should open up a hole and allow the RB to cut the ball up...

That's why you need a RB that embodies the patience to let the play develop and make the patented one cut and go. The RB doesn't really 'know' where the hole will end up being. It could be anywhere....Even on the backside of the play...

thunderkyss
06-24-2013, 05:32 PM
I'm telling you, Newton should have EASILY hooked that guy there....But since he didn't he's got to recognize quickly that he isn't going to hook him and that's when he is supposed to use the defenders momentum against him and say "ok, you wanna go outside...Let me help you"...That's when he should have began pushing him TO the sideline which should open up a hole and allow the RB to cut the ball up...


I think I understand now. Like I said, if I understand what you mean by hook, I got it.

I'll be looking for good examples of this in videos or pictures, but if anyone else find any before I do, I'd appreciate it.

76Texan
06-24-2013, 09:40 PM
Once again, watch the long clip with Alex Gibbs decephering the plays.

Zoom in on the TE when he's covered.

76Texan
06-24-2013, 09:59 PM
Read page 10, especially the BIG bolded part.

http://www.gregorydoublewing.com/ZoneBlockingManual_BASH_1_.pdf

ALWAYs BECOME PART OF THE TACKLE!!!
Stay on your block.

76Texan
06-24-2013, 10:07 PM
B. Covered Blocker.

Run through the play side shoulder...

...

Did any one see the TE run through the shoulder of the SDE?

76Texan
06-24-2013, 10:32 PM
Watch this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azlLStj7u3E

Look at what the TE do on the first play, which is the exact scenario for the TE & the RT.

Scroll to the 1:50 mark to see the TE on the play side to the left.

Watch the play at the 2:10 mark.

76Texan
06-24-2013, 10:57 PM
Watch a little of the first video on the Broncos Outside Zone:

http://www.milehighreport.com/2013/5/14/4329000/mhr-university-zone-blocking

Outside zone if off-tackle play...
Outside zone is designed to cut upfield at the LOS, not bounced outside.

Then scroll to the 0:21 mark:

RB: Read the helmet of the second down lineman outside the Center (the SDE, in the play being discussed).

If his helmet goes inside (not the case here), turn the ball upfield just to the outside of him.

If his helmet goes outside (which is the case here), so and a so forth.
...

Foster should have made the cut inside, just as I've been saying.

thunderkyss
06-25-2013, 01:02 PM
Read page 10, especially the BIG bolded part.

http://www.gregorydoublewing.com/ZoneBlockingManual_BASH_1_.pdf

ALWAYs BECOME PART OF THE TACKLE!!!
Stay on your block.

MsR, again, thanks for the link.

Insideop
06-25-2013, 05:00 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to say thanks for all the back and forth discussion of this topic. I've been learning a lot about the "zone blocking system" from all the chat and links to videos, and it sure makes the off season go by quicker! :)

buddyboy
06-25-2013, 06:17 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to say thanks for all the back and forth discussion of this topic. I've been learning a lot about the "zone blocking system" from all the chat and links to videos, and it sure makes the off season go by quicker! :)

Definitely. I'd say 75% of it is just flying over my head, but the 25% that I'm catching is very interesting! Thanks to all the knowledgeable guys on this board for the really educational football talk, especially in the offseason!

EllisUnit
06-25-2013, 07:36 PM
errr

LZ
06-26-2013, 08:42 AM
Like TK, I'm only interested in breaking down a given play to see if I can tell why it works (or doesn't work.)

There are many websites and video clips out there that talk about the zone blocking scheme. I just pick out the ones from coaches, especially those from Gibbs (because even though other teams teach the ZBS- including college teams - they don't necessary teach the exact same thing; there are several reasons why.)

One such video is this one:
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=KNa3gZfQfH0&feature=youtu.be&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKNa3gZfQfH0%26feature%3 Dyoutu.be

That one video could take days to understand; and I'm not kidding, there are things Gibbs said that are impossible to understand , and I've read a lot about the ZBS ever since Kubiak came on board.

On this particular play, the LOS is around the 32-1/2 yd line.
Foster ended up gaining a yard or a little more. It was not even a negative play.
We've seen plenty of negative plays.

To be honest, I think Gibbs would have ripped Foster just like he said he would rip Terrell Davis in one of the plays in that video.

IMHO, Foster should have taken the seam (inside Newton, behind Jones and Myers.) Foster would probably gained about the same, but that was only because Smith had whiffed so badly on the back side cut block.
This is explained here:
http://prostylerunninggame.blogspot.com/2011/11/outside-zone-running-back.html?m=1
The first example coincides with the play in discussion, against a 4-3 Over Front.
Foster's first read is the 7-tech (the SDE).
Since the SDE kept outside leverage, Foster needs to go immediately to the next O-lineman to the inside (the RG Jones).
His options now are either between Newton and Jones (the seam) or to cut back inside Jones.

As I've said, the TE, with the SDE either head up or slightly shaded to the outside, should take a drop step and aim at the outside shoulder of the SDE.
He needs to wait until Newton arrives, and together, create some forward movement on the line before climbing to the SAM linebacker - unless the SDE slants hard to the inside (and therefore leaving the TE's area from the get-go, which the SDE did not.)

This is the concept of the ZBS; you have to block your area.
When there's a man in your area, you have to block him.
Watch the video and concentrate solely on the TEs to see what they do when he's covered (having a D-lineman head up on him or slightly shaded.)

Some coaches have a teaching point; there's a 50-80% chance that the TE would have to take on the block. He's not free to release to the second level straight away.

From the look of it, I believe OD didn't fulfill his job description.

What I think Newton did wrong, as I mentioned before, was in first step.
Unless there was something else going on that I'm not aware of, I believe his first step should have been with his right foot (toward the play side).
With a bucket step, he can now aim at the SDE's inside number/shoulder.
Newton and OD then work in tandem for a fraction of a second to get the movement needed at the LOS.
With the SAM flowing to the edge, it's OD's job to climb on him - which is the case here.

Newton lined up at the 31+ yd line; that was where he stayed throughout the play. The Texans did not get a push here, but they didn't allow penetration as one's eyes were led to believe.

Those are great resources and I have learned elements of zone blocking from my dad who had studied many oline coaches over the years including Alex Gibbs obviously, but I've also learned about how the Texans run their scheme from conversations with J. Benton and E. Winston.

I'll just say this. Always remember that the rules of engagement for offensive linemen are fluid and can change from play to play depending on the front they are seeing, the MIKE LB designation and how that team is coached to attack elements of the defense.

Not all teams are coached to do the same things against similar fronts. There are times that a team will execute a play differently than another offensive line based on what the line coach has designated even in a given week.

As for Gibbs, his idea of the outside zone is to run the track tighter to the LOS for the running back and to look for cutback lanes. What the Texans found is that teams began to really concentrate on the cutback lanes since they didn't respect the run around the corner from any of the Texans RBs. Once Foster got there and once Dennison had a little more say, the Texans started to widen out the track of the outside zone just a little bit and concentrate more on getting around the edge with the RB so that teams would have to flow harder.

LZ
06-26-2013, 08:52 AM
Never seen that link before, but it's crazy how information has made it's way around the football world. I first learned this stuff over 10 years ago..



This describes Newton on that play and he failed to take the correct step based on what I saw on the film.


In OL terms..... "you have to give ground to gain ground".

76Texan
06-26-2013, 02:45 PM
Lance, if you read my posts (and not just in this thread), I have observed all the things you just said and had talked about them.

When the Texans ran more inside zone, when they started running more outside zone.

I read about how you and John Harris (?) view Duane Brown when he first got drafted and what you guys came to see during his first TC.
I've seen DB doing things that Harris was surprised to see.

I really don't have a need to qualify myself even though I've never played a down of football. This much, I've already communicated to Rey.

Football is not rocket science, but it does require a lot of knowledge about strategies and techniques to fully appreciate what's going on every Sunday.

Strategies changes require technique changes as it is an evolving sport.
What you learned ten years ago may have little relevancy to today's game.

I've also noted that different teams have different approaches to the ZBS.
There are several reasons I can come up with after studying a few dozens play books/manuals.

As long as we agree that teams can teach the scheme differently (in certain aspects), we can agree that we don't know for sure what a particular blocker should do on a particular play; you have said as much.

We don't know for certain what the TE should do on that particular play;
We don't know for certain what the RT should do on that play.

How can you and Rey be so quick to come to a conclusion?

Honestly, I really want to understand the thought process here.

76Texan
06-26-2013, 03:19 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that the TE is really there to briefly help Newton based on how the play unfolded. It's not a true double team. He has to take his steps and Newton needs to take his. He can't stay there too long or get too involved with that DE because he has to get up to the next level and pick up that LB.

JMO, but I think what he did there should have been good enough had Newton taken better steps and gotten to the TE's shoulder.

Honestly, Newton should have been able to hook that DE and the ball should have gone outside of him and maybe right behind the TE.



But he didn't do a good job there and the DE was able to close that hole off...at that point Newton just stays engaged with him and continues to block him. That would have been ok had Wade Smith done anything on the back side. The play would have still produced some positive yards...

I can point out a few things I didn't like that they did on the play, but the TE would be the least of my worries there.

If it were man blocking...Then yeah...The TE needs to stay on the DE a lot longer...And Newtons steps wouldn't have been as detrimental...

But in Newton's defense, ZBS is not easy to adjust to if you haven't done much of it. You're used to firing of the ball and pushing to get movement. Taking steps to outflank or out-leverage a defender takes some getting used to. It takes a while to get used to because as a lineman it doesn't really feel natural to step backwards and to the side to block a guy on a running play.

Normally big guys used to plowing guys take the longest to adjust. Unless they've had some ZBS experience...Whereas smaller quicker guys embrace that blocking style more quickly because they finally get to use their quickness to their advantage. They don't have to plow into guys and try to push them 3 yards off the LOS...They can use quickness and leverage to block guys. But like LZ of course you still need strength***

And I know he was there the year before, but he wasn't getting starters reps in practice and still...It just takes a while.

Would have been nice to see Newton this year to see how he progressed.



***This is one reason I'm excited about Brooks on the OL. He has a chance to be dominant in this scheme. With his strength if he can master the footwork and show good quickness and agility, you could see some gaping holes being opened up on that right side.
And I will be very intrigued to see Rey in Newton's position here.

Trust me, it is not about a ability. It's about the scheme.
A HC, or an offensive-line coach that requires the RT to perform this reach block all by himself is not in the right mind.

You want to design a blocking scheme that helps your guys to b more efficient.
Even if you're unorthodox enough, you can't be expecting for the weakest part of your line to achieve this feast.

Sorry, but it makes no sense.

Rey
06-26-2013, 03:27 PM
And I will be very intrigued to see Rey in Newton's position here.

Trust me, it is not about a ability. It's about the scheme.
A HC, or an offensive-line coach that requires the RT to perform this reach block all by himself is not in the right mind.

You want to design a blocking scheme that helps your guys to b more efficient.
Even if you're unorthodox enough, you can't be expecting for the weakest part of your line to achieve this feast.

Sorry, but it makes no sense.

If you look at that film and see the RT making the block by himself then you need your eyes checked.

I don't know what else to say, besides you are wrong. The film and tutorials are fine, but if you think you can read about of stuff online and understand what you're seeing when you're watching film that's probably problem number 2.

76Texan
06-26-2013, 03:31 PM
If you look at that film and see the RT making the block by himself then you need your eyes checked.

I don't know what else to say, besides you are wrong. The film and tutorials are fine, but if you think you can read about of stuff online and understand what you're seeing when you're watching film that's probably problem number 2.

Rey, I never said that!

76Texan
06-26-2013, 03:34 PM
The funny thing here is that I like to discuss things with the guys who may have more knowledge about the game as a player, for example.

And I like that very much.

76Texan
06-26-2013, 03:38 PM
Rey, let me be very blunt here.

Do you know what the Texans coaches want the guys on the line do on each instance?

76Texan
06-26-2013, 03:40 PM
I understand that theory is never the same as when you're on the ground.

76Texan
06-26-2013, 03:43 PM
The concept and the teaching need to be consistent, I am absolutely sure of that.

thunderkyss
06-26-2013, 05:03 PM
Hey Rey, in this video at 0:47 They labeled it "Rip Reach" but that is what I'm thinking when you say "hook the DE"



Watch a little of the first video on the Broncos Outside Zone:

http://www.milehighreport.com/2013/5/14/4329000/mhr-university-zone-blocking



Is that what you're talking about?

Rey
06-26-2013, 05:25 PM
Hey Rey, in this video at 0:47 They labeled it "Rip Reach" but that is what I'm thinking when you say "hook the DE"






Is that what you're talking about?

Similar concept, but I didn't like those guys steps either. They barely moved anywhere. They were just turning and running.

That first step has got to be deep and somewhat wide. But not awkwardly wide where you lose your balance.

But basically, it's similar to that where they are trying to basically outflank a defender that is outside of them.

But the video I thought showed how the guys were reading on the run when they were combo blocking.

There was even a mistake in there on a combo block where both the OL came off the down lineman to go up to the LB........but I kind of blame that on the defense...If I were coaching that drill I'm telling the guys with the dummies to get their asses in gear and give the guys a good look and stop dragging their damn feet...Get to where you're going so we can get a good picture...

I don't know what 76 is talking about...76, IMO, would be a real good coach for younger kids because he knows the basic concepts and stuff and he could give kids a real good foundation...But IMO when it comes to some of the higher level stuff he falls flat and I'd attribute that to a lack of applicable knowledge/experience...Not really a knock, because I think he brings some good info to the table, but honestly, to me at least, his lack of experience with the finer points shows to me....JMO...

76Texan
06-26-2013, 06:05 PM
Rey,

The first thing when you said one of us doesn't know what we're talking about is the same, and with all honesty , it could be something that you truly believe.

I will tell you now for the last time, in as much a nice way as possible
; you are a good source, not an authority.

LZ
06-26-2013, 07:50 PM
Lance, if you read my posts (and not just in this thread), I have observed all the things you just said and had talked about them.

When the Texans ran more inside zone, when they started running more outside zone.

I read about how you and John Harris (?) view Duane Brown when he first got drafted and what you guys came to see during his first TC.
I've seen DB doing things that Harris was surprised to see.

I really don't have a need to qualify myself even though I've never played a down of football. This much, I've already communicated to Rey.

Football is not rocket science, but it does require a lot of knowledge about strategies and techniques to fully appreciate what's going on every Sunday.

Strategies changes require technique changes as it is an evolving sport.
What you learned ten years ago may have little relevancy to today's game.

I've also noted that different teams have different approaches to the ZBS.
There are several reasons I can come up with after studying a few dozens play books/manuals.

As long as we agree that teams can teach the scheme differently (in certain aspects), we can agree that we don't know for sure what a particular blocker should do on a particular play; you have said as much.

We don't know for certain what the TE should do on that particular play;
We don't know for certain what the RT should do on that play.

How can you and Rey be so quick to come to a conclusion?

Honestly, I really want to understand the thought process here.

Actually, I think you were the one who was pretty quick to come to the conclusion on the TE on that play. My point was to say that different teams coach it different ways. With that said, there are some basic truths in the zone. I think we are getting caught up in too many technical aspects. I know a thing or two about oline play and I had my ass handed to me with a big dose of humble pie after watching tape with my dad a couple of years ago. I would prefer to stay away from too many technique issues as there are very few on this board who are qualified to get into technique talk. I can talk basic technique, but I'm not a coach so I'm not going to wonder too far into that area. I trust Rey to do that though.

There are some basics that most teams follow though and they can literally change on the fly depending on who they have to block, the shade of the defender and how best to release linemen to the 2nd level. That's all I'm really commenting on here.

LZ
06-26-2013, 07:54 PM
The concept and the teaching need to be consistent, I am absolutely sure of that.

The teaching is consistent, but the concepts can change from game to game depending several factors. This is zone blocking, not man and the point of the entire scheme is to use 6 guys to block 7 or 8 which requires getting to the 2nd level. Winston has told me about times where he and Brisiel literally made adjustments themselves during the 2nd quarter of a game.

Don't make the mistake of believing everything is black and white when there are levels of gray for line play thanks to fake a-gap blitzes, loaded fronts, slanting and corner blitzing. That is what makes line play so unique and why so few people understand how difficult it can be for players who don't have an ability to process information quickly.

76Texan
06-27-2013, 01:33 PM
Actually, I think you were the one who was pretty quick to come to the conclusion on the TE on that play. My point was to say that different teams coach it different ways. With that said, there are some basic truths in the zone. I think we are getting caught up in too many technical aspects. I know a thing or two about oline play and I had my ass handed to me with a big dose of humble pie after watching tape with my dad a couple of years ago. I would prefer to stay away from too many technique issues as there are very few on this board who are qualified to get into technique talk. I can talk basic technique, but I'm not a coach so I'm not going to wonder too far into that area. I trust Rey to do that though.

There are some basics that most teams follow though and they can literally change on the fly depending on who they have to block, the shade of the defender and how best to release linemen to the 2nd level. That's all I'm really commenting on here.

Lance, I'm not quick to jump to conclusion on anything; that is the way I always am.

I had gone through/reviewed several coaching manuals/tips on the web and rewatched a few videos before I made that call.

I think it is you that was quick to come to a few conclusions when you made the video that breaks down that particular play. :)

All the things that you touched in the last few posts were already addressed by myself in previous posts, if only you would read them.

Tell you what, I just pulled up that Jaguars game in week 11.
I found 3 similar plays from the same formation against the same front.
In the first quarter, at 9:48 and 6:35
In the second quarter, at 10:27

The TE did exactly what I've been saying that he should; that is to work in tandem with the OT, stay with the block longer and stronger instead of barely laying a hand on the SDE like OD did on that particular play.

Also, I noticed that both D. Brown or Newton have the same first step.
So my next conclusion is that the Texans taught their OTs that technique, and that Newton did not have a bad first step in the play being discussed.
(This is something I said I wasn't sure of; that the Texans may have a different way of doing things from other teams/coaches.)

LZ
06-27-2013, 02:07 PM
Lance, I'm not quick to jump to conclusion on anything; that is the way I always am.

I had gone through/reviewed several coaching manuals/tips on the web and rewatched a few videos before I made that call.

I think it is you that was quick to come to a few conclusions when you made the video that breaks down that particular play. :)

All the things that you touched in the last few posts were already addressed by myself in previous posts, if only you would read them.

Tell you what, I just pulled up that Jaguars game in week 11.
I found 3 similar plays from the same formation against the same front.
In the first quarter, at 9:48 and 6:35
In the second quarter, at 10:27

The TE did exactly what I've been saying that he should; that is to work in tandem with the OT, stay with the block longer and stronger instead of barely laying a hand on the SDE like OD did on that particular play.

Also, I noticed that both D. Brown or Newton have the same first step.
So my next conclusion is that the Texans taught their OTs that technique, and that Newton did not have a bad first step in the play being discussed.
(This is something I said I wasn't sure of; that the Texans may have a different way of doing things from other teams/coaches.)

I'm not going to keep arguing the point. The TE was not a big part of the problem on this play. Newton handled the play poorly and used improper footwork. I don't know what else to say. You can access all the manuals and instructional tapes you want, but I'm telling you what I've learned from studying directly under and NFL offensive line coach and from speaking to him about this particular play before I posted it. Why we are continuing to argue about what your videos are telling you is beyond me. It was a poorly executed play across the board. Seems like this is just turning into arguing for arguments sake now.

deucetx
06-27-2013, 02:33 PM
I'm not going to keep arguing the point. The TE was not a big part of the problem on this play. Newton handled the play poorly and used improper footwork. I don't know what else to say. You can access all the manuals and instructional tapes you want, but I'm telling you what I've learned from studying directly under and NFL offensive line coach and from speaking to him about this particular play before I posted it. Why we are continuing to argue about what your videos are telling you is beyond me. It was a poorly executed play across the board. Seems like this is just turning into arguing for arguments sake now.

Heh, have to agree with you. As someone who worked with youth and talking to various individuals involved in the game your point was well received earlier. It not text book nor something that just comes from a manual. Most coaches take what they know or learned from such materials and evolve it to fit their scheme and then they may have to adapt one step further for the personnel involved. Can this guy make this step successfully? How can I change it to fit his footwork and his reaction tendencies?

So thanks for the insight since I know you gained the chance to speak first hand with some personnel. Just gives me more idea to pass onto others since that's what it is all about. I learned in a coaching clinic how so much information, schemes and techniques are simply re-processed and adapted.

Makes one always thankful to get different viewpoints from others so thanks to you and Rey on that. Nice article as well.

Rey
06-27-2013, 02:38 PM
I'm not going to keep arguing the point. The TE was not a big part of the problem on this play. Newton handled the play poorly and used improper footwork. I don't know what else to say. You can access all the manuals and instructional tapes you want, but I'm telling you what I've learned from studying directly under and NFL offensive line coach and from speaking to him about this particular play before I posted it. Why we are continuing to argue about what your videos are telling you is beyond me. It was a poorly executed play across the board. Seems like this is just turning into arguing for arguments sake now.


I don't know the exact technique the Texans are teaching their OL....What I do know is that Newton did not do a good job on the play. I don't even see how that's debatable.

Short of Kubiak or John Benton coming on here and confirming that I don't think 76 would ever acknowledge that. He feels that he can read manuals and decipher plays...

I just don't bother with the back and forth much anymore. Whatever.

thunderkyss
06-27-2013, 03:23 PM
I don't know the exact technique the Texans are teaching their OL....What I do know is that Newton did not do a good job on the play. I don't even see how that's debatable.

Short of Kubiak or John Benton coming on here and confirming that I don't think 76 would ever acknowledge that. He feels that he can read manuals and decipher plays...

I just don't bother with the back and forth much anymore. Whatever.

I understand what you're saying, I see the issue with Newton's step, but I still find it hard to believe Newton was supposed to make that block when he had little contact with the DE.

Right next to Newton you see Ben Jones & Myers working on a player lined up on Jones' outside.... Myers has no chance of getting to that outside shoulder. Maybe because Jones did such a bad job, but he engages the DT much more than the TE engages the DE.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I've yet to find (& I have been looking) an example where the TE gives the RT enough time to make that block with minimum contact.

All that to say, 76Texans' explanation is much easier to believe to a layman such as me if I'm going to "study" it. For your & LZ's explanation, I have to hit the "because he said so" button & mine's been broke for a while.

76Texan
06-27-2013, 03:28 PM
Those are great resources and I have learned elements of zone blocking from my dad who had studied many oline coaches over the years including Alex Gibbs obviously, but I've also learned about how the Texans run their scheme from conversations with J. Benton and E. Winston.

I'll just say this. Always remember that the rules of engagement for offensive linemen are fluid and can change from play to play depending on the front they are seeing, the MIKE LB designation and how that team is coached to attack elements of the defense.

Not all teams are coached to do the same things against similar fronts. There are times that a team will execute a play differently than another offensive line based on what the line coach has designated even in a given week.

As for Gibbs, his idea of the outside zone is to run the track tighter to the LOS for the running back and to look for cutback lanes. What the Texans found is that teams began to really concentrate on the cutback lanes since they didn't respect the run around the corner from any of the Texans RBs. Once Foster got there and once Dennison had a little more say, the Texans started to widen out the track of the outside zone just a little bit and concentrate more on getting around the edge with the RB so that teams would have to flow harder.

Lance, read your own post.

You, yourself, said that the rule of engagement can change on any given play.

That means, neither you or I, or anybody else outside of those players and the coaching staff, can say what OD or Newton were supposed to do on that play.

On the other hand, you insist that you know what the two players were supposed to do.

Isn't that a contradiction?

Rey
06-27-2013, 03:45 PM
I understand what you're saying, I see the issue with Newton's step, but I still find it hard to believe Newton was supposed to make that block when he had little contact with the DE.

What angle are you looking at?

Go to the Endzone view and pause the video at 3:17. The TE has two hands on the DE and has him completely hooked. If that to you is little contact then I don't know what to tell you. Short of holding the DE there until Newton gets his isht together, I don't know what else you want him to do.


Right next to Newton you see Ben Jones & Myers working on a player lined up on Jones' outside.... Myers has no chance of getting to that outside shoulder. Maybe because Jones did such a bad job, but he engages the DT much more than the TE engages the DE.

TK stop being ridiculous. That DT was in a 3 tech on the outside of Jones shoulder. Hell, you might even be able to call it a 4 tech because he's over Newton a little bitThe distance isn't even close to being the same. The only way Meyers is making that block is if the DT stunts inside. Then Jones would have passed him off.

The DE is head up on the TE. It's not even close to being the same block.

The reason Jones is so engaged is because He knows Meyers is going to end up going to the LB.

The reason the TE is not as engaged is because Newton is supposed to take over that block and allow him to go up to the TE.

How are you not getting that?

Go to the EZ view and look at the play again. It doesn't look the same because it's not the same block. There's a reason they are doing two different things and it's because of how the defense is lined up.

Newton is taking over, Meyers is taking his steps and then going up to the next level.

The TE is going to pass off the DE and Jones is going to stay on.


Honestly I can't break it down any more than that.

76Texan
06-27-2013, 04:36 PM
Watching another game now, looking for the same situation.
Miami week 1

2:31 first qtr
7:53 third qtr

TE stayed on the block well.
So far in two games, I have yet to see anything different in the rules of engagement.

76Texan
06-27-2013, 05:02 PM
Yet another game vs Jags week 2

10:42 1st qtr
2:52 1st qtr
8:32 2nd qtr
7:59 2nd qtr
4:24 4th qtr (DE lined up very wide. OT helped TE before climbing)
2:53 ;th qtr

Still no exception.

thunderkyss
06-27-2013, 05:38 PM
TK stop being ridiculous.

You need to stop being so offended. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying I'm right. Just saying.

It's a difference of opinion, that's all. If you can't see it from my P.O.V. you should be able to understand why it's not so easy to see it from yours.

Rey
06-27-2013, 05:46 PM
You need to stop being so offended. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying I'm right. Just saying.

It's a difference of opinion, that's all. If you can't see it from my P.O.V. you should be able to understand why it's not so easy to see it from yours.

It's not me being offended.

Comparing those two blocks is ridiculous TK. IMO.


Just look at the film. The defenders alignment in relation to the guys blocking them isn't remotely the same.

Maybe I'm just expecting you to see something that you just aren't seeing. I don't know, but to me, looking at that film certain things are apparent. Whether or not you know a lick about football or if you've been in the NFL for 100 years...I would think you could look at the tape and see basic things like alignment...

Now whether you know what that alignment likely means in regards to the play is another thing.

But come one...To say that Ben Jones blocked his man more than the TE blocked his?

I'll just back out of this conversation because it's not really going anywhere....It's fine...We have a differing opinion on this...Not a big deal.

thunderkyss
06-27-2013, 05:56 PM
That DT was in a 3 tech on the outside of Jones shoulder. Hell, you might even be able to call it a 4 tech because he's over Newton a little bitThe distance isn't even close to being the same. The only way Meyers is making that block is if the DT stunts inside. Then Jones would have passed him off.


I know it's difficult having this kind of conversation on the internet... like this.

But when I say it's the same block, it's because LZ said this


As for Ben Jones and C. Myers, you have this one wrong. This is a handoff block where Jones is to get across the face of the 3-tech and "hand him to Myers. From that point, it is Jones' responsibility to work up to the MIKE. Obviously, Alualu blew that play up so Myers was just trying to get a piece of the MIKE but it is highly unlikely that the MIKE was his responsibility on that play.


Which is what we're saying the TE & Newton were supposed to be doing.

76Texan
06-27-2013, 07:27 PM
Tell you what, I just pulled up that Jaguars game in week 11.
I found 3 similar plays from the same formation against the same front.
In the first quarter, at 9:48 and 6:35
In the second quarter, at 10:27

The TE did exactly what I've been saying that he should; that is to work in tandem with the OT, stay with the block longer and stronger instead of barely laying a hand on the SDE like OD did on that particular play.

Also, I noticed that both D. Brown or Newton have the same first step.
So my next conclusion is that the Texans taught their OTs that technique, and that Newton did not have a bad first step in the play being discussed.
(This is something I said I wasn't sure of; that the Texans may have a different way of doing things from other teams/coaches.)

Watching another game now, looking for the same situation.
Miami week 1

2:31 first qtr
7:53 third qtr

TE stayed on the block well.
So far in two games, I have yet to see anything different in the rules of engagement.

Yet another game vs Jags week 2

10:42 1st qtr
2:52 1st qtr
8:32 2nd qtr
7:59 2nd qtr
4:24 4th qtr (DE lined up very wide. OT helped TE before climbing)
2:53 ;th qtr

Still no exception.

The thing that I notice is that the OT (whether it's Newton or D. Brown) never took a bucket step. They all did exactly the same thing Newton was doing in that particular play.
(So, it looks like that is what the Texans teach it differently than other teams.)

The only difference is that OD left the combo after just a hand check on the SDE whereas in all of the other plays mentioned above the TE actually engaged the SDE before releasing to the second level.

Furthermore, the Texans had an extra blocker in the FB Casey in the play being discussed. You don't need two-on-one on the second level as much as at the LOS, where the battle needs to be won.

76Texan
06-28-2013, 02:26 PM
In the week 3 game vs the Broncos, the Texans faced a 3-4 defense, so there wasn't any scenario that has enough similarity.

In the next game against the Titans, I found these:

12:57 First quarter
Brown did not take a bucket step with his playside foot.
He simply turned his left toe in that direction and started his first step with the right foot.
The DE was a hair inside the TE (Graham), yet Graham stayed with the combo block the whole way through.

On the next play, the DE lined up outside Graham, but attack to the inside.
Both Newton and Graham stayed with the combo block to ride him out of the way before Newton released to the second level.

6:16 first quarter
OD went into motion and ended up on the right side, with the DE slightly inside him in an inside-slant position (but he attacked the outside.)
OD stayed with the combo block long and strong before releasing.
Newton's first step is consistent with what I described about D. Brown earlier.

5:38 second quarter
With the DE head up on the TE, same thing repeats itself.
It looks like the Texans teach the OT to reduce the bucket step to a minimum (as I've been describing.)

10:19 fourth qtr
6:29 fourth qtr
5:54 fourth qtr

I've watched every run plays and noted the similar situations in four games (not counting the Broncos game), and there's still no exception.

Do I believe in what I've been observing?
You bet I do!

TheIronDuke
06-28-2013, 04:34 PM
Just want to pop in and say that I'm learning a lot reading this thread.

Now I just wish we could get Josh Innes in here to hear what he thinks about the Texans o-line scheme. :sarcasm:

76Texan
07-01-2013, 11:06 AM
I've been re-watching more games, including the first five five
from 2011.

I try to study Winston's technique as well as Harris and Brown's.

It certainly is true what Alex Gibbs said in one of his coaching clinic (for college coaches) that you have to look to do something new or different each year to stay ahead of the competition.

What I observe from the TE in this instance (a similar situation to the play in discussion) remains constant.

The approach of the uncovered OT wasn't the same from 2011 to 2012.

I will get to it later.

disaacks3
07-01-2013, 11:26 AM
I think we are getting caught up in too many technical aspects. I know a thing or two about oline play and I had my ass handed to me with a big dose of humble pie after watching tape with my dad a couple of years ago. I would prefer to stay away from too many technique issues as there are very few on this board who are qualified to get into technique talk. I can talk basic technique, but I'm not a coach so I'm not going to wonder too far into that area. Let this be an abject lesson to those breaking down film at home - Without input from the coaches, your guess may not be as accurate as you think.

thunderkyss
07-01-2013, 12:28 PM
Let this be an abject lesson to those breaking down film at home - Without input from the coaches, your guess may not be as accurate as you think.

So we shouldn't criticize Jacoby Jones, Shilo Keo, Chris Brown, Matt Schaub?

One way or another, we're going to watch our team & we're going to comment on how they play. Most likely without input from the coaches.

You can go back & watch that video LZ posted. Then come & read his comments regarding that video.... there are discrepancies in what he is saying here & what he's saying on the video. LZ doesn't have anymore input from the coaches than we do.

disaacks3
07-01-2013, 12:57 PM
So we shouldn't criticize Jacoby Jones, Shilo Keo, Chris Brown, Matt Schaub?

One way or another, we're going to watch our team & we're going to comment on how they play. Most likely without input from the coaches.

You can go back & watch that video LZ posted. Then come & read his comments regarding that video.... there are discrepancies in what he is saying here & what he's saying on the video. LZ doesn't have anymore input from the coaches than we do. Way to extrapolate far more from what I said than what's there.

Sure, you can criticize players, we all do, myself definitely included. When it regards obvious scheme / assignments though, it may be useless without a coach telling you what that player was SUPPOSED to be doing on that play.

Between LZ and his dad, they have press / coaching contacts throughout the league. You really think he has zero idea what the coaching staff may / may not think about a player? :thinking:

My sun doesn't set by LZ's evaluation of anything. I don't discount it out of hand, either.

b0ng
07-01-2013, 01:05 PM
LZ doesn't have anymore input from the coaches than we do.

By virtue of having a media pass, this is a false statement. Anna Meagan-Raley (or whatever her name was) had more input from the coaches than we did while she worked for the chronicle.

LZ
07-01-2013, 11:19 PM
So we shouldn't criticize Jacoby Jones, Shilo Keo, Chris Brown, Matt Schaub?

One way or another, we're going to watch our team & we're going to comment on how they play. Most likely without input from the coaches.

You can go back & watch that video LZ posted. Then come & read his comments regarding that video.... there are discrepancies in what he is saying here & what he's saying on the video. LZ doesn't have anymore input from the coaches than we do.

Not true. I speak with John Benton after practices from time to time about players and certain specifics. For example, I didn't know why they double dueled B-gap blitzers and DTs with guards so we spoke about that. Methinks you sell me a little short.

Texan_Bill
07-01-2013, 11:33 PM
Not true. I speak with John Benton after practices from time to time about players and certain specifics. For example, I didn't know why they double dueled B-gap blitzers and DTs with guards so we spoke about that. Methinks you sell me a little short.

As an aside, how's your Traeger?

I haven't done a suckling but I did some lamb. FANTASTIC!!!!

badboy
07-01-2013, 11:39 PM
My daddy can beat your daddy up. Why can't we talk football and not denigrate each other. You see it one way & I another, let it go. If some of us were as good at this as we think we are, we have different jobs. State your opinion and knock off putting down the other guy.

DocBar
07-02-2013, 12:01 AM
My daddy can beat your daddy up. Why can't we talk football and not denigrate each other. You see it one way & I another, let it go. If some of us were as good at this as we think we are, we have different jobs. State your opinion and knock off putting down the other guy. All I can say is marine engines and superchargers are weak. Start talking diesel engines and turbos, NOW you're talking power. As far as daddy's go, my daddy will kick both of your daddy's asses and still get 3,000 yds in a 10 game season. That's how bad ass MY daddy is. LOL. :kitten:

badboy
07-02-2013, 12:15 AM
All I can say is marine engines and superchargers are weak. Start talking diesel engines and turbos, NOW you're talking power. As far as daddy's go, my daddy will kick both of your daddy's asses and still get 3,000 yds in a 10 game season. That's how bad ass MY daddy is. LOL. :kitten:
Now that's funny right there. I don't care who you are. Please forgive me Lord for what I am thinking about DocBar.

thunderkyss
07-02-2013, 12:16 AM
Not true. I speak with John Benton after practices from time to time about players and certain specifics. For example, I didn't know why they double dueled B-gap blitzers and DTs with guards so we spoke about that. Methinks you sell me a little short.

I stand corrected.

LZ
07-02-2013, 10:48 AM
As an aside, how's your Traeger?

I haven't done a suckling but I did some lamb. FANTASTIC!!!!


Working as great as always. It's funny because I just told my wife I wanted to do a suckling pig as well.

powda
07-02-2013, 10:51 AM
LZ you are one of my favorite sports radio personalities and I think it's really cool that you come here and post. Here's my question:

When are you going to FM radio? You've been everywhere else...

TheIronDuke
07-02-2013, 05:27 PM
LZ you are one of my favorite sports radio personalities and I think it's really cool that you come here and post. Here's my question:

When are you going to FM radio? You've been everywhere else...

To add on to this comment, if anyone hasn't heard LZ's "Worst Hour of Sports Talk Radio" it's freaking hilarious.

76Texan
07-02-2013, 09:36 PM
With all due respect, and Lance and Rey are among the most respected sources around this part, I continue to have my own thoughts and observations.

One has to keep learning to move foreward.

It's the only way.

76Texan
07-02-2013, 09:52 PM
I'm not going to keep arguing the point. The TE was not a big part of the problem on this play. Newton handled the play poorly and used improper footwork. I don't know what else to say. You can access all the manuals and instructional tapes you want, but I'm telling you what I've learned from studying directly under and NFL offensive line coach and from speaking to him about this particular play before I posted it. Why we are continuing to argue about what your videos are telling you is beyond me. It was a poorly executed play across the board. Seems like this is just turning into arguing for arguments sake now.

And I'm going back to this point.
I've been studying this part about the TE and I must say I disagree completely.

The TE is an integral part of the outside zone or the stretch play.

The blocking TE plays an important role in this system; I really don't get it when Lance and Rey insisted that the TE was not a problem in this particular play.
Especially after I had studied many similar situations in both 2011 and 2012.

76Texan
07-02-2013, 10:10 PM
Lance can qualify himself as having learn this and that; and so can Rey.

I can qualify myself as to have known about Duane Brown before Lance came on board and I can claim that I saw Myers as a capable Center while many were on his case.

I can claim that I saw a solid CB in Kareem Jackson against the grain.

Instead, I had to work hard for the things I believe in.
Pardon me, but who the hell is going to tell me that I just make a little nice peewee coach (even though it's a good thing.)

I detest authority, especially when it isn't real authority.
It's something I always said; one may know something; he doesn't know it all.

You just need to keep learning.

Texan_Bill
07-02-2013, 10:23 PM
Lance can qualify himself as having learn this and that; and so can Rey.

I can qualify myself as to have known about Duane Brown before Lance came on board and I can claim that I saw Myers as a capable Center while many were on his case.

I can claim that I saw a solid CB in Kareem Jackson against the grain.

Instead, I had to work hard for the things I believe in.
Pardon me, but who the hell is going to tell me that I just make a little nice peewee coach (even though it's a good thing.)

I detest authority, especially when it isn't real authority.
It's something I always said; one may know something; he doesn't know it all.

You just need to keep learning.


Easy.... Easy.... Easy John!!

First off, I think Lance's Dad has waaaaaay more credence than your personal analysis. He actually did it for a living at the professional level, for many, many, many years.

While you spend many hours studying film (and I appreciate that), I defer to the professionals (i.e. Lance's Dad).

thunderkyss
07-02-2013, 10:41 PM
Easy.... Easy.... Easy John!!

First off, I think Lance's Dad has waaaaaay more credence than your personal analysis. He actually did it for a living at the professional level, for many, many, many years.

While you spend many hours studying film (and I appreciate that), I defer to the professionals (i.e. Lance's Dad).

& if Lance's Dad was here saying these things I'd give it more credence.

But it's not. It's a guy who wrote a newspaper article telling us what we already knew..... Derek Newton is not a 6 year veteran.

You want to know why our run game was so bad? If you're sheep, we can point to Derek Newton & Ben Jones and tell you Kubiak made a boo-boo. If you really want to know, listen to 76. Brown, Wade, & Chris didn't perform up to expectations.

They made the Pro Bowl, but on that play & every run play, the RB should have options. The first read on the DE says cut it back. The LBs are pursuing that outside edge like a mudda. If Myers gets a real block on that LB, there's a sliver of a cut back. If Smith gets his block, it's 30+ yards.

LZ
07-03-2013, 01:19 AM
LZ you are one of my favorite sports radio personalities and I think it's really cool that you come here and post. Here's my question:

When are you going to FM radio? You've been everywhere else...

If I went to FM, it would probably mean I'm doing sports in another city.

LZ
07-03-2013, 01:21 AM
Lance can qualify himself as having learn this and that; and so can Rey.

I can qualify myself as to have known about Duane Brown before Lance came on board and I can claim that I saw Myers as a capable Center while many were on his case.

I can claim that I saw a solid CB in Kareem Jackson against the grain.

Instead, I had to work hard for the things I believe in.
Pardon me, but who the hell is going to tell me that I just make a little nice peewee coach (even though it's a good thing.)

I detest authority, especially when it isn't real authority.
It's something I always said; one may know something; he doesn't know it all.

You just need to keep learning.


At this point, I'm not even sure who you are arguing with. I don't remember even responding to your last 6 comments. We disagree and that's about it.

LZ
07-03-2013, 01:24 AM
& if Lance's Dad was here saying these things I'd give it more credence.

But it's not. It's a guy who wrote a newspaper article telling us what we already knew..... Derek Newton is not a 6 year veteran.

You want to know why our run game was so bad? If you're sheep, we can point to Derek Newton & Ben Jones and tell you Kubiak made a boo-boo. If you really want to know, listen to 76. Brown, Wade, & Chris didn't perform up to expectations.

They made the Pro Bowl, but on that play & every run play, the RB should have options. The first read on the DE says cut it back. The LBs are pursuing that outside edge like a mudda. If Myers gets a real block on that LB, there's a sliver of a cut back. If Smith gets his block, it's 30+ yards.


I tell you what.... how about the three of us meet up for a film session with coaching tape from NFL Rewind and I'll let you school me on line play. We can go through inside zone, outside zone, FB responsibilities and reads, when to change MIKE calls. All of that. I'll sit and listen for the first 30 minutes and I won't say a word. I'll just let you guys have the floor. I'll buy the lunch too. Deal? :)

LZ
07-03-2013, 01:33 AM
I know I'm just a guy who "wrote a newspaper article", but I've been talking about o-line play here in Houston and abroad for longer than you give me credit. I never said I knew anything. To the contrary. I said that we all need to slow our roll a little bit because we shouldn't get too far into technique, etc. The play I posted on the Chronicle blog was a disaster. You can try and position it any way you want, but it was a mess all the way around. Newton is not going to be a good NFL tackle. I'm willing to make a wager on that. He's got core strength issues, balance issues and sloppy hands and feet that both get too wide when he's in pass pro.

Just to prove I'm not just guessing on this stuff, here is a piece I did where I'm sure I told you everything you already knew about the Giants defensive scheme vs. the Texans, but I'll link it anyway.

http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2010/10/film-school-how-the-giants-used-scheme-to-stop-the-running-game/

Not sure why you and 76 keep trying to keep this thing alive. I thought I had moved on to suckling pigs.

drs23
07-03-2013, 01:33 AM
I tell you what.... how about the three of us meet up for a film session with coaching tape from NFL Rewind and I'll let you school me on line play. We can go through inside zone, outside zone, FB responsibilities and reads, when to change MIKE calls. All of that. I'll sit and listen for the first 30 minutes and I won't say a word. I'll just let you guys have the floor. I'll buy the lunch too. Deal? :)

:popcorn:

The Pencil Neck
07-03-2013, 02:03 AM
Not sure why you and 76 keep trying to keep this thing alive. I thought I had moved on to suckling pigs.

Have you met my friend 76? (On the internet, not IRL.) Persistence is his middle and last name. He looks at film, posts what he sees, looks at film, posts what he sees, looks at more film, posts what he sees.

It's an endearing trait once you get used to it but the first couple of times and it's like... wait... what?

He's a good guy, though. Heart's in the right place.

ObsiWan
07-03-2013, 03:11 AM
Have you met my friend 76? (On the internet, not IRL.) Persistence is his middle and last name. He looks at film, posts what he sees, looks at film, posts what he sees, looks at more film, posts what he sees.

It's an endearing trait once you get used to it but the first couple of times and it's like... wait... what?

He's a good guy, though. Heart's in the right place.

Can we get him to take a look at the income tax code and fix that?
:D

infantrycak
07-03-2013, 03:35 AM
OK I have never taken LZ as the god some folks have (sorry LZ) but some of y'all are being dicks. Instead of throwing your Vienna sausage on the table, how about just appreciate that he is participating here? His opinion is worth listening to and any winky shrinkage problems are your own. I have seen him do nothing claiming superiority. In contrast some of this "I have watched every game from every player on every team college or NFL" is more than a little tired. Scouts across the league are laughing at the exaggeration.

TexansBlood
07-03-2013, 09:53 AM
I tell you what.... how about the three of us meet up for a film session with coaching tape from NFL Rewind and I'll let you school me on line play. We can go through inside zone, outside zone, FB responsibilities and reads, when to change MIKE calls. All of that. I'll sit and listen for the first 30 minutes and I won't say a word. I'll just let you guys have the floor. I'll buy the lunch too. Deal? :)

Thunderkyss and 76Texan yall got called the F out!

LZ if this happens make sure to record it so we can see them making fools of themselves.

thunderkyss
07-03-2013, 11:00 AM
I tell you what.... how about the three of us meet up for a film session with coaching tape from NFL Rewind and I'll let you school me on line play. We can go through inside zone, outside zone, FB responsibilities and reads, when to change MIKE calls. All of that. I'll sit and listen for the first 30 minutes and I won't say a word. I'll just let you guys have the floor. I'll buy the lunch too. Deal? :)

If all I gotta do is run my mouth for 30 minutes to get a free lunch, I'm in.


I know I'm just a guy who "wrote a newspaper article", but I've been talking about o-line play here in Houston and abroad for longer than you give me credit. I never said I knew anything. To the contrary. I said that we all need to slow our roll...

Not sure why you and 76 keep trying to keep this thing alive. I thought I had moved on to suckling pigs.

Again, never meant to insult you. I understand my last post was cold, but I'm replying to a guy who says he'll take your dad's words over 76's


I was just pointing out the conversation was not between your dad & 76Texan.

Rey
07-03-2013, 11:03 AM
I tell you what.... how about the three of us meet up for a film session with coaching tape from NFL Rewind and I'll let you school me on line play. We can go through inside zone, outside zone, FB responsibilities and reads, when to change MIKE calls. All of that. I'll sit and listen for the first 30 minutes and I won't say a word. I'll just let you guys have the floor. I'll buy the lunch too. Deal? :)

Can I come...Jut to watch?

I'll even buy my own lunch....:clown:

thunderkyss
07-03-2013, 11:07 AM
LZ if this happens make sure to record it so we can see them making fools of themselves.

I ain't scurred. Like I said before, I'm just trying to learn. Look at my posts, I'm saying I don't understand, I think this & this should happen, You said this should happen here, but over here you said that should happen.

Some people got upset & instead of just explaining what they thought was right, they tried to belittle me.

I'm not going to stop asking questions or posting my opinions because someone gets upset his word isn't taken as gospel (not you LZ). Can't learn that way.

Rey
07-03-2013, 11:07 AM
At this point, I'm not even sure who you are arguing with. I don't remember even responding to your last 6 comments. We disagree and that's about it.

I don't really even bother arguing anymore about this stuff. Some people know what they know.

Doesn't really matter though. I appreciate your insight as well as everyone else's ...Including 76...

But when he starts ranting about this and that I just don't even read anymore....I honestly don't care that much...I'll argue to a certain point and then after that...whatever..

Heath Shuler
07-03-2013, 01:56 PM
I'll buy the lunch too. Deal? :)

Free lunch??? As long as it isn't from the Discount Sushi Emporium sign me up! :fingergun:

76Texan
07-04-2013, 04:10 PM
Easy.... Easy.... Easy John!!

First off, I think Lance's Dad has waaaaaay more credence than your personal analysis. He actually did it for a living at the professional level, for many, many, many years.

While you spend many hours studying film (and I appreciate that), I defer to the professionals (i.e. Lance's Dad).

Have you met my friend 76? (On the internet, not IRL.) Persistence is his middle and last name. He looks at film, posts what he sees, looks at film, posts what he sees, looks at more film, posts what he sees.

It's an endearing trait once you get used to it but the first couple of times and it's like... wait... what?

He's a good guy, though. Heart's in the right place.

Bill would know that IRL, I'm a very laid back and easy-going person.

But in a discussion, you have to bring everything to the table.

Once I'm convinced by another viewpoint, I gladly concur.
In the meantime, I simply continue to do what I like to do best, which is to watch and learn more about football, a little at a time.

And so I repeat, in one coaching session, Alex Gibbs started by saying that teams would do things differently every year to stay ahead of the game.
He also mentioned that Greg Knapp and other coaches at times don't see things the same way he does.

That right there tells us that a certain technique or scheme can surely vary from year to year.

I've been watching more tapes, and they show me the same thing.

Before last year, the uncovered tackle took a bucket step that doesn't show up in 2012.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ubRSdtMwQfw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DubRSdtMwQfw

In this third part of one of Gibbs' series, we can see that step pretty clearly whereas in 2012, it was often not there; the uncovered tackle looks to pivot on his outside toes toward his aiming point rather than lifting his outside foot off the ground.

In all the games I've been reviewing, the covered TE always have a part in the combo block with the OT.
In the video mentioned above, you will notice that on one play, Gibbs wasn't too happy with the TE when he left the combo block a bit too early.

There has been no exception in that observation except for the play that Lance brought up, which was the starting point of this discussion.

For those reasons, I simply cannot agree with Lance and Rey's assertion.
Now, while I have never professed that I know more about O-line play than either one of them, I steadfastly maintain the point that there can be no assertion until we know for sure what the heck the players were supposed to do on that play.

(And remember, originally, I also thought that Newton had a poor first step; however, in that same post, I also said that perhaps the Texans were doing something different.)

I know that I'm an open-minded person; but also, like TK said, one can't learn much by being a sheep. It takes questioning and learnings that arise from those questions to further increase one's knowledge. For me, that will always be the case.

76Texan
07-04-2013, 04:34 PM
Another thing I came away with from that series (which is really obvious), is that Gibbs reiterated one of the points I was saying when he noted something to this extent "you will lose a one-on-one at times, but you have to win on the combo block".

The most importants thing I saw on that play, I had mentioned from the start:

1. The TE has to be more engaged on that block to win the edge.

2. The G & the C have got to be able to move the 3T in that combo blocks.

Those are the keys that can help make the play work.
The concept is much more important than the technique (unless the technique is too sloppy.)

Gibbs himself had said many times over in his different coaching series that a certain O-lineman in his system (even the FB) could be a mismatch against a certain player on the opponent's team.

You work with what you have and a coach, it is your responsibility to put those guys in optimum positions to succeed.

thunderkyss
07-07-2013, 10:52 AM
So I'm watching the Tennessee @ Houston game. 6:16 in the first qtr, 1st & 10. The DE is playing outside Newton, 5 tech. The TE motions to Newton's side, straight up on the DE. At the snap, the TE puts a good block on the DE, turns him so that his shoulders are parallel to the sideline. Newton is able to get under his play side shoulder & the DE has no leverage to stop Newton from taking him where he wants to go, which is several yards from the LOS.

In my mind, that's the way the block (from the original post) is supposed to be executed.

The play didn't go very well (3 yard gain) because Ben Jones did a poor job on the second level, allowing a player to cut Foster down from the backside. Again, there is no backside cut, this time because Myers is manhandled by a LB & Wade Smith's cut block at the LOS impedes Browns ability to contribute.

Now, I'm watching a 3rd & 1 at 5:00 in the 1st qtr. Run to the right, Wade Smith gets blown up by a DT who trips Foster up 3.5 yards in the backfield.... pathetic. This guy should not be starting in 2013.

deucetx
07-07-2013, 03:04 PM
If folks were really open minded then this thread wouldn't be 7 pages...

Why are you guys continuing when the person or persons you are speaking to aren't even engaging in the discussion? At this point it is proving to be exactly like infantry stated earlier. You are merely talking to yourself at this point so either take LZ up on his offer and get a free meal out of it or move on. Rey nor LZ are bothering with continuing. Simply agree to disagree.

HoustonFrog
07-08-2013, 10:57 AM
Great thread. glad to see LZ in here.

disaacks3
07-08-2013, 11:04 AM
Again, never meant to insult you. I understand my last post was cold, but I'm replying to a guy who says he'll take your dad's words over 76's Who wouldn't? Message Board film watcher over Larry Zierlein? Please tell me you're kidding.

steelbtexan
07-08-2013, 11:31 AM
I ain't scurred. Like I said before, I'm just trying to learn. Look at my posts, I'm saying I don't understand, I think this & this should happen, You said this should happen here, but over here you said that should happen.

Some people got upset & instead of just explaining what they thought was right, they tried to belittle me.

I'm not going to stop asking questions or posting my opinions because someone gets upset his word isn't taken as gospel (not you LZ). Can't learn that way.

I did NOT me to seem to belittle you or your thought process. I was just saying that I will take Larry Zierlien, who has spent his entire life coaching OL's in HS, College, NFL over ametuer MB film study guy. I do enjoy what 76 brings to the MB though because he makes me think outside the box many times and whether I agree with him or not it makes for great conversation. Which is what a MB is all about.

Once again I apoligize if I offended you.

thunderkyss
07-08-2013, 11:44 AM
I did NOT me to seem to belittle you or your thought process. I was just saying that I will take Larry Zierlien, who has spent his entire life coaching OL's in HS, College, NFL over ametuer MB film study guy. I do enjoy what 76 brings to the MB though because he makes me think outside the box many times and whether I agree with him or not it makes for great conversation. Which is what a MB is all about.

Once again I apoligize if I offended you.

Not you.


Again, this thread would have been totally different if we were talking to Larry Zierlien.

I do appreciate Lance for coming & sharing what he's learned. I hope my quest for better understanding has not discouraged him from sharing.

But if I don't agree, I'm going to say I don't agree & why I don't agree. I've got no problem saying I'm wrong.

76Texan
07-08-2013, 05:17 PM
Come on guys, this is a MB; anybody can have an opinion on things.

Besides, Lance wasn't even the OP.

The OP posted a link to an article and a video than Lance (not his dad) gave his take.

I disagree with a certain thing he claimed on that play (the video); that Newton allowed too much penetration.

Anybody can go back and watch that play to see that Newton did not allow any penetration. In fact, he gained slightly.

Next, I disagreed with Rey who said that the TE (OD) did his job.
So I pulled up several games and noted all the similar plays, including tapes of the Falcons in which Alex Gibbs himself explained the scheme.
I noted that Gibbs "ragged" on the TE when he abandoned the combo block too soon - and he was on the SDE longer than OD did on that particular play for the Texans.

I am not in disagreement with them on any other point.

The only other thing I noticed was the change in the uncovered OT's first step in 2012 from previous years while I re-watched the game films so I made the notes for anybody who is interested to check to see whether their eyes met mine.

This is not a pissing contest.

Those who are not interested in the conversation don't have to join.

Those who do, I would appreciate for them to point out whether their observations are different than mine or not.

76Texan
07-08-2013, 05:23 PM
So I'm watching the Tennessee @ Houston game. 6:16 in the first qtr, 1st & 10. The DE is playing outside Newton, 5 tech. The TE motions to Newton's side, straight up on the DE. At the snap, the TE puts a good block on the DE, turns him so that his shoulders are parallel to the sideline. Newton is able to get under his play side shoulder & the DE has no leverage to stop Newton from taking him where he wants to go, which is several yards from the LOS.

In my mind, that's the way the block (from the original post) is supposed to be executed.

The play didn't go very well (3 yard gain) because Ben Jones did a poor job on the second level, allowing a player to cut Foster down from the backside. Again, there is no backside cut, this time because Myers is manhandled by a LB & Wade Smith's cut block at the LOS impedes Browns ability to contribute.

Now, I'm watching a 3rd & 1 at 5:00 in the 1st qtr. Run to the right, Wade Smith gets blown up by a DT who trips Foster up 3.5 yards in the backfield.... pathetic. This guy should not be starting in 2013.

So you see it the same way I did on the play at 6:16 in the first.
I mentioned about it in post #94.

76Texan
08-17-2013, 07:13 AM
OK, Rey, I found this video clip of John Benton.

He can tell you better why I disagreed with you guys about the responsibility of the TE on that running play.

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-media/videos/Xs-and-Os-2010-Run-Game/780fd097-e9d3-4c52-bbde-303514d661b3

Make note of the 1:50 mark where he specifically said how the TE and the RT need to combo on the DE before one of them releasing to the second level.

Also, note the 3:30 mark where he talks about the RB's read.
As the DE played to the outside, Foster needed to turn inside (like I said he should). And Foster did look inside, but as he saw nothing there, he tried to bounce outside. All these things combine to make Newton looked bad, while I don't see him as the problem. It was the other guys on the line on that particular play.

Here's the link to LZ's piece about the particular running play that I had a couple of things I disagreed with (ie. the RT Newton and the TE Daniel):
http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2013/06/how-the-texans-get-their-run-game-back-on-track-video-analysis-included/

bckey
08-18-2013, 12:14 PM
:deadhorse:popcorn: