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View Full Version : Secret Superstar: Kareem Jackson


DocBar
05-25-2013, 09:26 PM
LINK (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/25/secret-superstar-kareem-jackson/)

When you are a first-round pick, all eyes in the media are on you which make it hard to be a secret. Kareem Jackson was drafted in 2010 and in two years slowly faded into the background while free agent pickups Johnathan Joseph and Danieal Manning became the stars of Houstonís secondary.

In his case the third year was the charm, as he starred in a secondary that, as a unit, didnít live up to expectations. While some fans may have given up on Jackson and prematurely given him the bust tag, the Texans stuck with him and his third year was his best. Houston has some great young players on their defense, and after you see why he is the Texans Secret Superstar, youíll know why Jackson is one of the up and coming defensive stars.

paycheck71
05-25-2013, 10:03 PM
Wait.... I'm confused... I thought he was the Texans' "weak link" as mentioned in the article discussed in another thread?

DocBar
05-25-2013, 10:12 PM
Wait.... I'm confused... I thought he was the Texans' "weak link" as mentioned in the article discussed in another thread?LOL...I'll take PFF's word over TBR any day of the week.

paycheck71
05-25-2013, 10:17 PM
LOL...I'll take PFF's word over TBR any day of the week.

It was clear the other guy didn't watch any Texans games last year. Probably just heard about their secondary problems and KJ struggling in the two years before that.

Playoffs
05-25-2013, 10:19 PM
But, but...... Bleacher Report(http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/Mario_Facepalm_Ava_mote_by_Artemendo.gif) said Kareem is a weakness???

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100168


Future All-Star Defense

The Texans have hit on recent first round draft picks with Brian Cushing, Jackson, and J.J. Watt. The jury is still out on Whitney Mercilus, and they have also used three recent second round picks on defense. The few positions that arenít filled with a young up and coming player are filled with known veterans. This defense looks like it can be one of the best not only this year, but years to come if they can develop their young players correctly. Jackson is one of the big pieces of the puzzle.

He is just another reminder that you shouldnít be too quick to judge young players. With enough time to develop, they could still become a superstar even if they have a slow start.

PHILLYTEXANFAN
05-25-2013, 10:35 PM
If Kareem continues to improve, expect JJoe to be moved or cut

thunderkyss
05-25-2013, 10:42 PM
If Kareem continues to improve, expect JJoe to be moved or cut

We'll have to wait & see how the contracts play out. If either of them are interested in getting the biggest contract possible, that guy will be moving on. While Bob ain't cheap, we're not going to overpay for anyone..... including JjWatt.

Don't get me wrong, if Kj & Jjo continue to play well, they'll deserve to get paid. Like I said, Bob will be more than willing to pay, but I doubt we'll make either of them the highest paid CB in the league, warranted or no.

We'll also have to develop another starting corner.

DocBar
05-25-2013, 10:52 PM
We'll have to wait & see how the contracts play out. If either of them are interested in getting the biggest contract possible, that guy will be moving on. While Bob & cheap, we're not going to overpay for anyone..... including JjWatt.

Don't get me wrong, if Kj & Jjo continue to play well, they'll deserve to get paid. Like I said, Bob will be more than willing to pay, but I doubt we'll make either of them the highest paid CB in the league, warranted or no.

We'll also have to develop another starting corner.I don't see JJ going anywhere at all for the next 6 years or so. McNair and Smithiak have been pretty prudent on who they spend money on but they do pay the ones they feel deserve it. Even if they have to restructure their deals every year or two.

I see KJ getting retained over JJo, though. Much younger in football years and should be ready to be a #1 CB by that time with maybe Harris or Carmichael ready to be a #2.

infantrycak
05-25-2013, 10:55 PM
If Kareem continues to improve, expect JJoe to be moved or cut

His salary cap is flat over the next three seasons. Why get rid of him in his prime?

PHILLYTEXANFAN
05-25-2013, 11:00 PM
His salary cap is flat over the next three seasons. Why get rid of him in his prime?

I thought it would help since the cap situation wont be good for another few years

DocBar
05-25-2013, 11:13 PM
A lot of us on this forum are happily eating crow right now and I hope it's justified. KJ has had one good year out of three but has consistently shown signs of improving and year three is the normal time to start really judging draft picks. I hope year 4 is an improvement over year 3.

:turtle:

thunderkyss
05-25-2013, 11:47 PM
I don't see JJ going anywhere at all for the next 6 years or so. McNair and Smithiak have been pretty prudent on who they spend money on but they do pay the ones they feel deserve it. Even if they have to restructure their deals every year or two.

Mario got $100M, by the time JjWatt comes up there will be teams willing to give him $150M. He'll definitely have earned a big payday, but nothing like that. I don't think Jj will be looking for it though, so that will be the difference.


I see KJ getting retained over JJo, though. Much younger in football years and should be ready to be a #1 CB by that time with maybe Harris or Carmichael ready to be a #2.

We'll see. Jjo may not be asking for anything more than what he's worth. The stars may align & RickSmith's valuation may match Jjo's & we'll keep both.

Y'know, the only thing better than winning a SuperBowl is winning two.

b0ng
05-25-2013, 11:59 PM
Mario got $100M, by the time JjWatt comes up there will be teams willing to give him $150M. He'll definitely have earned a big payday, but nothing like that. I don't think Jj will be looking for it though, so that will be the difference.
.

Any right minded GM would give Watt what he wants if he continues to put up dominant/elite seasons as a defensive linemen. Mario, while really good, just doesn't have the same motor/consistency like Watt. Only way Watt leaves Houston is because he wants to leave.

Texn4life
05-26-2013, 12:03 AM
I don't care what anyone says, Joseph has to play better next year. I understand he had injuries he was dealing with but that was his knock in Cinci. If he plays up to his potential and KJ continues to improve then it makes this defense a whole lot better. JJoe can be a top 3 CB in this league as he proved in 2011 IMO and grouping that with what we've added in the secondary will make us lethal.

Now we just need to get our sub packages together.

DocBar
05-26-2013, 12:06 AM
Mario got $100M, by the time JjWatt comes up there will be teams willing to give him $150M. He'll definitely have earned a big payday, but nothing like that. I don't think Jj will be looking for it though, so that will be the difference.



We'll see. Jjo may not be asking for anything more than what he's worth. The stars may align & RickSmith's valuation may match Jjo's & we'll keep both.

Y'know, the only thing better than winning a SuperBowl is winning two.I don't see JJ being motivated by money as much as championships. He knows he needs to leave a little on the bone to keep talent around him. Plus. he's made quite a home in Houston. JJ seems to be that rare individual who's more cattle than hat. I see them signing JJ to a record contract over many years, but I also think it will be as cap-friendly as possible.

AngryNateFTW
05-26-2013, 12:09 AM
We'll have to wait & see how the contracts play out. If either of them are interested in getting the biggest contract possible, that guy will be moving on. While Bob ain't cheap, we're not going to overpay for anyone..... including JjWatt.

Don't get me wrong, if Kj & Jjo continue to play well, they'll deserve to get paid. Like I said, Bob will be more than willing to pay, but I doubt we'll make either of them the highest paid CB in the league, warranted or no.

We'll also have to develop another starting corner.

JJ Watt isn't going anywhere. Possibly the best defensive player for the next 10 years.

He can ask for a blank check if he wants and that's exactly what he'll get.

JJ Watt said in an interview (Before his DPOY award) that he has higher goals than just DPOY. He's looking for MVP of the league. (And obviously a Super Bowl ring)

You don't set your goals that high unless you realistically plan on reaching them. If a defensive player can actually win the MVP award then he's just that good and completely deserving of any amount of money that he wants. Keeping him is going to be an obstacle.

As far as JJo and KJax, you saw JJo get burnt more and more often as opposed to KJax who improved EVEN more after each game. If they are saving money for JJ Watt then they might need to let JJo go at some point IF (and only if) it can save them money.

DocBar
05-26-2013, 12:12 AM
Any right minded GM would give Watt what he wants if he continues to put up dominant/elite seasons as a defensive linemen. Mario, while really good, just doesn't have the same motor/consistency like Watt. Only way Watt leaves Houston is because he wants to leave.

Mario was on the lower end of the "good" scale. Watt is on the high end of "great". There's a very high likelihood that he'll be the 1st Texan inducted into the HOF. Mario will only get in there with a ticket.

McNair will make sure JJ stays in Houston.

thunderkyss
05-26-2013, 12:14 AM
I don't see JJ being motivated by money as much as championships. He knows he needs to leave a little on the bone to keep talent around him. Plus. he's made quite a home in Houston. JJ seems to be that rare individual who's more cattle than hat. I see them signing JJ to a record contract over many years, but I also think it will be as cap-friendly as possible.

Pretty much what I said..... so, I agree. Or you're right, whichever makes you feel better.

ChampionTexan
05-26-2013, 12:16 AM
Mario got $100M, by the time JjWatt comes up there will be teams willing to give him $150M. He'll definitely have earned a big payday, but nothing like that. I don't think Jj will be looking for it though, so that will be the difference.


Watt (and all first round picks) has an option the Texans can pick up for a 5th year that will be the average of the top 10 salaries at his position (less than the franchise amount). That amount should be low enough to then be able to apply the franchise tag to JJ in year 6 without having to go over the stipulated amount due to the 20% rule.

Do I think it will play out this way - no I don't. I think that the Texans will find a way to keep JJ without having to tag him. But do I think they'll let him go after year 4 or 5 to keep from having to use these things? Absolutely not.

I don't see even a remote possibility of JJ getting on the open market until 2017.

thunderkyss
05-26-2013, 12:18 AM
You don't set your goals that high unless you realistically plan on reaching them. If a defensive player can actually win the MVP award then he's just that good and completely deserving of any amount of money that he wants. Keeping him is going to be an obstacle.

Funny thing about goals (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2914874).

AngryNateFTW
05-26-2013, 01:11 AM
Funny thing about goals (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2914874).

Jon Kitna couldn't hold Watt's jock strap.

Anyone can say something but the ones who mean it will make it happen. You can post a whole lot of nothing from a whole lot of nothings but you'd have to believe that if Watt says he can do something that he most likely will.

Like VY saying the Eagles were the "Dream Team." :rolleyes:

thunderkyss
05-26-2013, 01:49 AM
Jon Kitna couldn't hold Watt's jock strap.

Anyone can say something but the ones who mean it will make it happen. You can post a whole lot of nothing from a whole lot of nothings but you'd have to believe that if Watt says he can do something that he most likely will.
:

I just thought it was funny that Kitna set his goal at 10 games. Wasn't trying to insinuate anything about JjWatt.

'cak posted a picture about a moosenuckle or something like that in another thread. Your post brought that image back to mind.

AngryNateFTW
05-26-2013, 02:06 AM
I just thought it was funny that Kitna set his goal at 10 games. Wasn't trying to insinuate anything about JjWatt.

'cak posted a picture about a moosenuckle or something like that in another thread. Your post brought that image back to mind.

Wasn't attacking you or anything, just referencing the same thing you were. :D

Vance87
05-26-2013, 02:49 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ak9D32f0zMs/UE_UJhgltqI/AAAAAAAABSU/yWXUQUcaNoM/s1600/2307890-anchorman-well-that-escalated-quickly_super.jpg

drs23
05-26-2013, 12:19 PM
As far as JJo and KJax, you saw JJo get burnt more and more often as opposed to KJax who improved EVEN more after each game. If they are saving money for JJ Watt then they might need to let JJo go at some point IF (and only if) it can save them money.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

While it's not difficult to argue that KJ had the better season in '12 I think we can all agree that JJo was dealing with injuries much like he had during his stint in Cincy. When healthy, he's the player that made many of us want to send Aso a "thank you" card for stringing Rick Smith along until Rick quit playing and pulled the trigger on JJo and DMann.

It sounds like he's healthy again at OTAs from the comment Kubes or it might have been TC made last week saying JJo (paraphrasing) was making it tough on Matt, AJ and DeAndre effectively shutting them down when they came to his part of the field. Here's what Steph had to say in her blog on Friday, the 24th.

Jonathan Joseph looked back-pocket sharp in his coverage. Which is what fans expect of him but after his injuries of last season, it is nice to see.

Not the exact quote I was looking for but gets the point across, I think.

AngryNateFTW
05-26-2013, 12:30 PM
Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

While it's difficult to argue that KJ had the better season in '12 I think we can all agree that JJo was dealing with injuries much like he had during his stint in Cincy. When healthy, he's the player that made many of us want to send Aso a "thank you" card for stringing Rick Smith along until Rick quit playing and pulled the trigger on JJo and DMann.

It sounds like he's healthy again at OTAs from the comment Kubes or it might have been TC made last week saying JJo (paraphrasing) was making it tough on Matt, AJ and DeAndre effectively shutting them down when they came to his part of the field. Here's what Steph had to say in her blog on Friday, the 24th.



Not the exact quote I was looking for but gets the point across, I think.


Agreed. If he can stay healthy he's the player we signed and will play for this team for a few more years to come but to keep Mr. :swatter: our FO needs to think of possible ways to save money whether that's keep a JJo, cut A.Smith, cut D.Manning, who knows.

A lot of good players on this defense, i'm glad I don't need to make the decisions.

rush2112mn
05-26-2013, 02:25 PM
I did not know Kareem was a superstar.......good player...yes....but superstar?......not yet......

thunderkyss
05-26-2013, 03:53 PM
Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

While it's not difficult to argue that KJ had the better season in '12 I think we can all agree that JJo was dealing with injuries much like he had during his stint in Cincy. When healthy, he's the player that made many of us want to send Aso a "thank you" card for stringing Rick Smith along until Rick quit playing and pulled the trigger on JJo and DMann.


No doubt. If Kj continues to develop positively (& I see no reason for him not to) & Jjo returns to 2011 form & JjWatt continues to be a bada55 & Antonio has another career year & Cushing comes back healthy & Reed provides the "rep" we need, & Manning gets back to his 2011....


Man.... we've got a long way to go.

DocBar
05-27-2013, 02:29 AM
No doubt. If Kj continues to develop positively (& I see no reason for him not to) & Jjo returns to 2011 form & JjWatt continues to be a bada55 & Antonio has another career year & Cushing comes back healthy & Reed provides the "rep" we need, & Manning gets back to his 2011....


Man.... we've got a long way to go.I'm really interested to see what Reed brings to the table from a "coaching" standpoint: disguising coverages, etc. I think that between Reed, JJo and Manning this could get real interesting.:d:

Insideop
05-27-2013, 01:19 PM
Mario was on the lower end of the "good" scale. Watt is on the high end of "great". There's a very high likelihood that he'll be the 1st Texan inducted into the HOF. Mario will only get in there with a ticket.

McNair will make sure JJ stays in Houston.

Baring injury Watt will be in the HOF, but the 1st Texan in should be AJ. If the Texans can make it to the SB in the next 2 years, and AJ has another good year or 2, then I think he'll be a lock. If he just has another good year, and the Texans don't make the SB, he still has a very high chance of getting in when he retires. Either way, I think he's the 1st Texan in the HOF.

houstonspartan
05-27-2013, 01:27 PM
We'll have to wait & see how the contracts play out. If either of them are interested in getting the biggest contract possible, that guy will be moving on. While Bob ain't cheap, we're not going to overpay for anyone..... including JjWatt.

Don't get me wrong, if Kj & Jjo continue to play well, they'll deserve to get paid. Like I said, Bob will be more than willing to pay, but I doubt we'll make either of them the highest paid CB in the league, warranted or no.

We'll also have to develop another starting corner.

JJ Watt is going nowhere. Ever. We will keep him, and we will sell Reliant Stadium to China if we have to in order to afford it.

DocBar
05-27-2013, 03:03 PM
Baring injury Watt will be in the HOF, but the 1st Texan in should be AJ. If the Texans can make it to the SB in the next 2 years, and AJ has another good year or 2, then I think he'll be a lock. If he just has another good year, and the Texans don't make the SB, he still has a very high chance of getting in when he retires. Either way, I think he's the 1st Texan in the HOF.It's tough for receivers to get into the HOF. While AJ has easily been the greatest Texan, I'm not sure he'll have HOF stats, especially touchdowns, by the time he retires. I really hope he proves me wrong, though.

thunderkyss
05-27-2013, 03:24 PM
JJ Watt is going nowhere. Ever. We will keep him, and we will sell Reliant Stadium to China if we have to in order to afford it.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

But it unless selling Reliant to China can give us some salary cap relief, I don't think it's going to help us any.

badboy
05-27-2013, 04:14 PM
If Kareem continues to improve, expect JJoe to be moved or cutJoseph's guarantee has been met but if cut after 2013 cap hit is about $7.5 m

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/johnathan-joseph/

Maddict5
05-27-2013, 04:33 PM
Baring injury Watt will be in the HOF, but the 1st Texan in should be AJ. If the Texans can make it to the SB in the next 2 years, and AJ has another good year or 2, then I think he'll be a lock. If he just has another good year, and the Texans don't make the SB, he still has a very high chance of getting in when he retires. Either way, I think he's the 1st Texan in the HOF.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89652

aj is a longshot to make the hof when you see some of the wrs who haven't been able to make it

houstonspartan
05-27-2013, 05:15 PM
Whatever helps you sleep at night.

But it unless selling Reliant to China can give us some salary cap relief, I don't think it's going to help us any.

Cute. My point is, Bob McNair will get rid of every single player on this roster if it means keeping JJ.

We don't have to worry about losing JJ; we DO have to worry about losing players we like in order to keep him. It's inevitable.

infantrycak
05-27-2013, 05:52 PM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89652

aj is a longshot to make the hof when you see some of the wrs who haven't been able to make it

Yeah, might not have wanted to pull that link out since the other guy you mentioned is now in the Hall.

Here is the problem with the "there are other WR's" argument - name one you are comparing him to who was ever considered the best in the NFL, not really good, not had a great career, the absolute best in the NFL for even part of his career.

Lucky
05-27-2013, 07:12 PM
I did not know Kareem was a superstar.......good player...yes....but superstar?......not yet......
Take a look at some of the others PFF featured as "secret superstars". Dwayne Allen (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/26/secret-superstar-dwayne-allen/). Cecil Shorts (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/27/secret-superstar-cecil-shorts/). Joique Bell (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/23/secret-superstar-joique-bell/). I had to lookup Joique to see what team he plays for (Lions). That's how big a secret he is.

In comparison to these guys, yeah Jackson is a superstar. Compared to JJ Watt or Andre Johnson, not really.


aj is a longshot to make the hof when you see some of the wrs who haven't been able to make it
If Andre finishes out his contract (4 years remaining), he's a lock to be in the top 5 all time in receiving yards. Possibly 2nd depending on how long Reggie Wayne plays. That's HOF worthy to me, though 1st ballot might require more playoff success or perhaps a Super Bowl ring.

TheMatrix31
05-27-2013, 07:48 PM
If Kareem continues to improve, expect JJoe to be moved or cut


Uh, no.

DocBar
05-27-2013, 08:02 PM
If Andre finishes out his contract (4 years remaining), he's a lock to be in the top 5 all time in receiving yards. Possibly 2nd depending on how long Reggie Wayne plays. That's HOF worthy to me, though 1st ballot might require more playoff success or perhaps a Super Bowl ring.
Staying healthy is probably the biggest factor. Hitting double digit TD's at least once in his career would help, also. TD's seem to go a long way with HOF voters.

Vance87
05-27-2013, 08:35 PM
Cute. My point is, Bob McNair will get rid of every single player on this roster if it means keeping JJ.

Even if that happens we can still go 6-10

Maddict5
05-28-2013, 12:07 AM
Yeah, might not have wanted to pull that link out since the other guy you mentioned is now in the Hall.

Here is the problem with the "there are other WR's" argument - name one you are comparing him to who was ever considered the best in the NFL, not really good, not had a great career, the absolute best in the NFL for even part of his career.

If Andre finishes out his contract (4 years remaining), he's a lock to be in the top 5 all time in receiving yards. Possibly 2nd depending on how long Reggie Wayne plays. That's HOF worthy to me, though 1st ballot might require more playoff success or perhaps a Super Bowl ring.

I hope im wrong but imo the logjam at wr is only going to get worse with all the stats 'good' modern wrs can put up. I think the value of having stats, especially yardage stats are going to diminish in the coming years.

aj has the fact that he has been in the 'best' discussion (lets not pretend like aj was widely considered as the definitive best when there was always guys like fitz, megatron, moss, wayne, TO etc) for a good few yrs in his favour but hes also going to have the 5 tds/yr average against him because there are a lot of good wrs who are averaging a lot more than that. it really sticks out in aj's hof resume compared to others

infantrycak
05-28-2013, 12:26 AM
aj has the fact that he has been in the 'best' discussion (lets not pretend like aj was widely considered as the definitive best when there was always guys like fitz, megatron, moss, wayne, TO etc)

There is no pretense about it.

CJ got into best discussions the last 2 years.
Fitz was in the discussion and then AJ put down 2008 and 09 and Fitz dropped out.
Moss - sorry in that time period not considered a contender. Excellent yes, best no.
Wayne has never even been discussed as the best WR in the league.
TO - I'm sorry what decade are we discussing?

The discussion by commentators was prevalent in 2008. In 2009 as he continued to perform it became assumed until he was injured the next year that he was the best.

revan
05-28-2013, 01:46 AM
My mind was set when KJ handled Megtron very well when they played against each other. The catches Megatron made had to be perfectly thrown by Stafford and KJ was still in his face.

Maddict5
05-28-2013, 07:47 AM
There is no pretense about it.

CJ got into best discussions the last 2 years.
Fitz was in the discussion and then AJ put down 2008 and 09 and Fitz dropped out.
Moss - sorry in that time period not considered a contender. Excellent yes, best no.
Wayne has never even been discussed as the best WR in the league.
TO - I'm sorry what decade are we discussing?

The discussion by commentators was prevalent in 2008. In 2009 as he continued to perform it became assumed until he was injured the next year that he was the best.

you're looking at it through texans tinted glasses. it was aj v fitz debate for 2008. aj generally got a little more yds but fitz used to get alot more tds so it just depended on what you were looking for.

when the cards went on their SB run in 09, fitz became the popular #1 wr in the nfl after what he did in the playoffs.

also, those other guys were just guys that were at some stage in the 'best' discussion from aj's rookie year to today, not that they were in the discussion in 08/09...

but i looked it up and they ALL still outperformed aj (td wise) in 08 & 09 (aj's best seasons). thought it was a bit ironic with the way you dismissed them out of hand...

it also shows the difficulty he will face when it comes time to see if he gets in. i think you're putting alot of stock in aj being in the ''best' discussion for a year or two. i hope he does but its doubtful in my eyes

IDEXAN
05-28-2013, 08:33 AM
I'm thinking Kareem is the closest thing we've had to a CB since D-Rob when it comes to a player who will come up to meet and then smack the pizz out of a running-back ? Here's my question: are KJ jerseys available, out there to be had ?

ObsiWan
05-28-2013, 02:22 PM
you're looking at it through texans tinted glasses. it was aj v fitz debate for 2008. aj generally got a little more yds but fitz used to get alot more tds so it just depended on what you were looking for.

when the cards went on their SB run in 09, fitz became the popular #1 wr in the nfl after what he did in the playoffs.

also, those other guys were just guys that were at some stage in the 'best' discussion from aj's rookie year to today, not that they were in the discussion in 08/09...

but i looked it up and they ALL still outperformed aj (td wise) in 08 & 09 (aj's best seasons). thought it was a bit ironic with the way you dismissed them out of hand...

it also shows the difficulty he will face when it comes time to see if he gets in. i think you're putting alot of stock in aj being in the ''best' discussion for a year or two. i hope he does but its doubtful in my eyes

The realist in me tends to agree. A.J. will have tough sledding getting into the Hall of Fame.

IMHO, one or more of these three things get guys into the Hall:
1) They re-wrote the "book" for how their position is played / perceived. Lawrence Taylor comes to mind for LBs as does Tony Gonzalez for TEs. Raymond Berry for WRs.
OR the guy personifies how his position should be played. Love him or hate him, when you think MLB in the 2000's you think Ray Lewis first. Back in the day, you thought Butkis. The "conversation" about their particular position started with those names.
2) They were perceived to have carried their respective team into the playoffs and championships ...repeatedly.
Lynn Swann comes to mind for me. His stats, when looked at on their own, are kind of lacking. But come playoff time, he left highlight memories that carried him into the Hall.
3) Re-write the record book. Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Peyton Manning are obvious examples here (I know Manning isn't in, but do you actually think he won't be a first-ballot choice??) I could add that Rice, Smith, Payton also qualify under item 2. That's why they're shoe-ins.

My question is which of those things can best be used to "argue" A.J.'s case for getting into the Hall?

While A.J., without question, personifies class and is the embodiment of a non-diva, hard-working, team player; outside of Houston, he's not the first name that pops up when the discussion of who's the best, current-generation, WR comes up. Of course, he's in the discussion but he's not the "icon" for the position that Ray Lewis or Tony G. became for their position. And can we really argue that A.J. "redefined" the WR position like, say, L.T. did for LB? ehh, maybe, I dunno...

As we've been to the playoffs the last two years was A.J.the one who actually carried the team to repeated playoff success. Some would argue Foster did it. ...or our defense... For example, in our four post-season appearances he has just the one TD. (that really surprised me!)

A.J. has achieved some recordbook milestones and the "quickest to this" or second fasted to that... but his best career stat is yds/game where he's second to Megatron.

- career rcptns - - - 818 (22nd)
- career yds - - - - 11,254 (27th)
- career TDs - - - - 56 (82nd)
- career Yd/catch - 13.8 (not sure where he stands; list ends at 15.1 and that's 230-something
- career yds/game - 81.6 (2nd)

Good numbers but not what non-Texan fans would call outstanding.

As much as I hate to say this, I don't see a real strong case.

DocBar
05-28-2013, 08:30 PM
The realist in me tends to agree. A.J. will have tough sledding getting into the Hall of Fame.

IMHO, one or more of these three things get guys into the Hall:
1) They re-wrote the "book" for how their position is played / perceived. Lawrence Taylor comes to mind for LBs as does Tony Gonzalez for TEs. Raymond Berry for WRs.
OR the guy personifies how his position should be played. Love him or hate him, when you think MLB in the 2000's you think Ray Lewis first. Back in the day, you thought Butkis. The "conversation" about their particular position started with those names.
2) They were perceived to have carried their respective team into the playoffs and championships ...repeatedly.
Lynn Swann comes to mind for me. His stats, when looked at on their own, are kind of lacking. But come playoff time, he left highlight memories that carried him into the Hall.
3) Re-write the record book. Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Peyton Manning are obvious examples here (I know Manning isn't in, but do you actually think he won't be a first-ballot choice??) I could add that Rice, Smith, Payton also qualify under item 2. That's why they're shoe-ins.

My question is which of those things can best be used to "argue" A.J.'s case for getting into the Hall?

While A.J., without question, personifies class and is the embodiment of a non-diva, hard-working, team player; outside of Houston, he's not the first name that pops up when the discussion of who's the best, current-generation, WR comes up. Of course, he's in the discussion but he's not the "icon" for the position that Ray Lewis or Tony G. became for their position. And can we really argue that A.J. "redefined" the WR position like, say, L.T. did for LB? ehh, maybe, I dunno...

As we've been to the playoffs the last two years was A.J.the one who actually carried the team to repeated playoff success. Some would argue Foster did it. ...or our defense... For example, in our four post-season appearances he has just the one TD. (that really surprised me!)

A.J. has achieved some recordbook milestones and the "quickest to this" or second fasted to that... but his best career stat is yds/game where he's second to Megatron.

- career rcptns - - - 818 (22nd)
- career yds - - - - 11,254 (27th)
- career TDs - - - - 56 (82nd)
- career Yd/catch - 13.8 (not sure where he stands; list ends at 15.1 and that's 230-something
- career yds/game - 81.6 (2nd)

Good numbers but not what non-Texan fans would call outstanding.

As much as I hate to say this, I don't see a real strong case.Well said. MSR.

Texan_Bill
05-28-2013, 09:06 PM
I've made comments about Kareem Jackson sucking in the past. I admit this, I was wrong about him (and have admitted to this in previous/similar threads). Did he give up some plays last season? Sure he did but what corner doesn't. That said, I feel a whole lot better about him now then I did his first season or two. A lot may be said about the coaching he had, or more accurately didn't have.

I think he can become a damn fine corner in this league.

PHILLYTEXANFAN
05-28-2013, 09:17 PM
- career rcptns - - - 818 (22nd)
- career yds - - - - 11,254 (27th)
- career TDs - - - - 56 (82nd)
- career Yd/catch - 13.8 (not sure where he stands; list ends at 15.1 and that's 230-something
- career yds/game - 81.6 (2nd)

Good numbers but not what non-Texan fans would call outstanding.

As much as I hate to say this, I don't see a real strong case.

If im not mistaken, Dre is NOT leaps and bounds away from the Top 10 in those categories, minus TDs I think that will change perspective. He also will not be in the same situation as Cris Carter, who has the stats, but a hardcore drug problem early in his career I believe has kept the door shut for him.

infantrycak
05-28-2013, 09:31 PM
If im not mistaken, Dre is NOT leaps and bounds away from the Top 10 in those categories, minus TDs I think that will change perspective. He also will not be in the same situation as Cris Carter, who has the stats, but a hardcore drug problem early in his career I believe has kept the door shut for him.

Correct and there are three players who are still active in front of him and all are older - Steve Smith, Tony Gonzalez and Reggie Wayne. So really two WR's.

ObsiWan
05-29-2013, 05:13 AM
If im not mistaken, Dre is NOT leaps and bounds away from the Top 10 in those categories, minus TDs I think that will change perspective. He also will not be in the same situation as Cris Carter, who has the stats, but a hardcore drug problem early in his career I believe has kept the door shut for him.

Correct and there are three players who are still active in front of him and all are older - Steve Smith, Tony Gonzalez and Reggie Wayne. So really two WR's.

Again, I ain't saying A.J. won't make it into the Hall, I'm just saying as things stand right now, it'll be tough sledding for him to get there.
Now the fact that he's a class act and a blue collar-type WR as opposed to a diva is definitely in his favor and should win him some votes. But a couple of stud post-season appearances resulting with him holding the Lombardi suuure would help cement his case though.

drs23
05-29-2013, 10:39 AM
I've made comments about Kareem Jackson sucking in the past. I admit this, I was wrong about him (and have admitted to this in previous/similar threads). Did he give up some plays last season? Sure he did but what corner doesn't. That said, I feel a whole lot better about him now then I did his first season or two. A lot may be said about the coaching he had, or more accurately didn't have.

I think he HAS become a damn fine corner in this league.

fify

thunderkyss
05-29-2013, 11:15 AM
I've made comments about Kareem Jackson sucking in the past.

You mean you evaluated a player before he was acclimated to the NFL?

Did you give him a grade?

steelbtexan
05-29-2013, 11:31 AM
Kareem Jackson = improving

Kareem Jackson=Superstar=LOL

Rey
05-29-2013, 11:43 AM
Kareem Jackson = improving

Kareem Jackson=Superstar=LOL

I don't know about superstar, because he doesn't make the flashy plays.

But last year Kareem was a damn good player. If he can consistently cover down field, there really aren't a lot of weaknesses to his game.

ObsiWan
05-29-2013, 12:22 PM
You mean you evaluated a player before he was acclimated to the NFL?

Did you give him a grade?
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4BcqonimvK43mLP3Zdr5JBiAnA18-bQVr8SinbR_OBgaue4sXDA

PHILLYTEXANFAN
05-29-2013, 12:54 PM
I don't know about superstar, because he doesn't make the flashy plays.

Namdi never really had flashy plays in Oakland, but for many years. People considered him "Elite". KJax just needs to keep on keepin on, fans will learn eventually.

DocBar
05-30-2013, 12:03 AM
Kareem Jackson = improving

Kareem Jackson=Superstar=LOL

That's why it's a secret!!!:peek:
:htown2atx:

chenjy9
05-30-2013, 01:20 AM
I will admit I've done my fair share of hating on Can't-Turn-His-Head Jackson and I will admit the guy has turned it around a ton. To go from incompetent to highly competent speaks volume of his guts and determination, but also is really damning of how bad the coaching was... unless he just happens to be the type of player that needed 2 years for it to "click" and everything to come together. Mad props for the coaching staff and FO to stick with him though.

thunderkyss
05-30-2013, 08:45 AM
I will admit I've done my fair share of hating on Can't-Turn-His-Head Jackson

This speaks to me to how bad the officiating has gotten in the NFL. If there is contact & the defender prematurely interferes with the receivers ability to catch the ball, it's a penalty.

If there is no contact before the ball gets to the receiver, it's not a penalty & shouldn't be called.

Too many times, I'm seeing the ref throw the flag when there is no contact, or when the contact is well timed.

tru80texan
05-30-2013, 03:33 PM
Kareem Jackson = improving

Kareem Jackson=Superstar=LOL

I would have to agree. KJ is improving, but is not a superstar. He finally showed improvement last season, but when it's all said & done he has had more bad seasons then good ones thus far in his NFL career. I have been highly critical of KJ in the past & still believe he showed some of the flaws in his game last season that have plagued him from day one, such as not getting his head around & biting on double moves to get burned, but he has definetly improved. I think I'm going to at least wait to see if KJ can produce at least 2 seasons of quality play before anointing him a "superstar". Hopefully KJ continues to get better, but that remains to be seen because one season of quality play doesn't quite solidify a player as being a good player much less a superstar IMO.

There is a reason JJo is still on the team as the #1 CB & considered one of the best in the NFL & it comes back to quality play over multiple years...not just one season like KJ has produced.

drs23
05-30-2013, 04:29 PM
I would have to agree. KJ is improving, but is not a superstar. He finally showed improvement last season, but when it's all said & done he has had more bad seasons then good ones thus far in his NFL career. I have been highly critical of KJ in the past & still believe he showed some of the flaws in his game last season that have plagued him from day one, such as not getting his head around & biting on double moves to get burned, but he has definetly improved. I think I'm going to at least wait to see if KJ can produce at least 2 seasons of quality play before anointing him a "superstar". Hopefully KJ continues to get better, but that remains to be seen because one season of quality play doesn't quite solidify a player as being a good player much less a superstar IMO.

There is a reason JJo is still on the team as the #1 CB & considered one of the best in the NFL & it comes back to quality play over multiple years...not just one season like KJ has produced.

JJo is going into his eighth year. KJ is starting his fourth. JJo was not the player he is now in his first few years either. As has been hammered time and again CB is the most difficult position to transition into from a collegiate career other than QB. I think it's safe to say by seeing how far he's come that one could pretty safely extrapolate a solid career for KJ. I wouldn't think it's out of the realm of probability that he becomes as good of a player as JJo this season or next.

thunderkyss
05-30-2013, 05:23 PM
JJo is going into his eighth year. KJ is starting his fourth. JJo was not the player he is now in his first few years either. As has been hammered time and again CB is the most difficult position to transition into from a collegiate career other than QB. I think it's safe to say by seeing how far he's come that one could pretty safely extrapolate a solid career for KJ. I wouldn't think it's out of the realm of probability that he becomes as good of a player as JJo this season or next.

Barring injury.

But, this "superstar" talk is just as goofy as the "elite" QB talk. It's just some adjective a writer used to get his point across & some people are just getting a little carried away with it. We know who KJ is.

What I'd like to know, is what CB has played better than KJ from day one to now, since the 2009 draft. If the position is as tough to learn, as has been said, it should be a pretty short list.

I know McCourty had a heck of a rookie year, but since then, I don't know what to say. I know if we bounced Kareem, or Brandon Harris, or Quin between safety & CB, we would say that he wasn't that good of a corner. Does that hold true for McCourty? I'm sure he'd like to be thought of (& paid) as a CB, but I don't think he will be.

I know Kj was drafted in the 2010 draft, I just wanted to expand the field.

tru80texan
05-30-2013, 09:20 PM
JJo is going into his eighth year. KJ is starting his fourth. JJo was not the player he is now in his first few years either. As has been hammered time and again CB is the most difficult position to transition into from a collegiate career other than QB. I think it's safe to say by seeing how far he's come that one could pretty safely extrapolate a solid career for KJ. I wouldn't think it's out of the realm of probability that he becomes as good of a player as JJo this season or next.

That statement is not entirely accurate. I'm sure JJo did take some lumps his rookie season, but he only started 9 games & ended up still defending 20 passes. KJ didn't even defend 20 passes in first 2 seasons combined(16 to be exact). JJo started in 2007 & played well by most accounts. Then started in 2008 & was having a good season before it was cut short by injury. He then returned in 2009 & once again had a good season & earned All Joe team honors which is given to players whom have played well but aren't given the credit some feel is deserved.

I'm not saying CB is not a difficult position to transition to, but your comparison of JJo & KJ is a bit off base & far from accurate. JJo showed the potential from day 1 & KJ obviously did not. Which is exactly why I said let's get another solid year out of KJ before prematurely claiming he is a "superstar" after producing just 1 solid season of play in his young 3yr career. KJ has shown improvement, without a doubt, but in the end it still only equates to 1 solid season & there have been multiple players who have come & gone w/ 1 solid season of play under their belts & didn't turn into superstars. Time will tell & I hope he continues to improve, but JJo is our #1 cb for good reason.

HJam72
05-30-2013, 09:25 PM
Yeah, I'm not exactly ready to make KJ our #1, but I do believe he's going to do well again.

Fanatic24
05-31-2013, 06:19 AM
Kareem Jackson named to 2010 NFL All-Draft Team. Well deserved.

2010 NFL All-Draft Team (http://www.profootballrosters.com/2013/05/30/2010-nfl-draft-revisited-part-iv-all-draft-team/)

thunderkyss
05-31-2013, 11:12 AM
Kareem Jackson named to 2010 NFL All-Draft Team. Well deserved.

2010 NFL All-Draft Team (http://www.profootballrosters.com/2013/05/30/2010-nfl-draft-revisited-part-iv-all-draft-team/)

So other in their (PFR) opinion, there isn't another QB from that draft who should be starting over Joe Haden & Kareem Jackson? So they aren't fans of Kyle Wilson or Devin McCourty?

76Texan
06-01-2013, 11:10 AM
It's very true that we can't compare Joseph and Jackson in their respective rookie year; the same way we can't compare McCourty with Jackson.

It's better to compare Joseph and McCourty.
They played in more similar defenses.
The Pats played mostly a cover-two defense while the Bengals mixed it up with the Tampa two.

In these schemes, the CB play mostly zone, and can afford to be more aggressive.
When they are in man, they still have two safeties to back them up (cover two, man-under.)
Don't forget that both of those defenses ranked near the bottom in yardage allowed.
It's hard to imagine rookie CBs playing so well despite the fact that the passing D was "terrible".

Jackson was thrown into the fire, playing more on an island.

b0ng
06-01-2013, 11:35 AM
McCourty had a good rookie season and has since gone on to be ddreadful. Kyle Wilson has been a nickel behind Revis and Cromartie, I do not believe he has been anything special and since the Jets drafted Miliner I'm not sure he's getting the starting gig now that Revis is gone.

thunderkyss
06-01-2013, 12:24 PM
since the Jets drafted Miliner I'm not sure he's getting the starting gig now that Revis is gone.

That will be interesting to see. Rex's D is usually pretty aggressive..... I'd be surprised if he starts a rookie at CB

Playoffs
06-01-2013, 03:09 PM
So other in their (PFR) opinion, there isn't another QB from that draft who should be starting over Joe Haden & Kareem Jackson? So they aren't fans of Kyle Wilson or Devin McCourty?
McCourty definitely in the discussion.

Marshall
06-01-2013, 08:53 PM
Funny thing about goals (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2914874).

No one is worth a blank check.

That said, Watt is worthy of a really big one.