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View Full Version : TJ Yates vs Case Keenum (Training Camp/Pre season 2013)


Rey
05-20-2013, 09:04 AM
Should be one of the more interesting competitions in camp. I think the fans will definitely be paying attention to this battle...

But I was listening to the 610 and John Lopez brought up an interesting point. He contends that there's 0 chance Keenum beats out Yates. He said that even if Keenum outplays Yates, you're not going to have the team come out and directly say Keenum is the #2.

His reasoning is that if that were to happen, you'd have an immediate QB controversy/a bunch of pressure on Schaub. Right now it's Yates vs Keenum...If Keenum is the back up....all of a sudden he's one spot away from starter. As the third string QB he doesn't pose any immediate threat to Schaub. There's no "circus" type atmosphere with die hard Coog fans or Keenum fans or just fans of local talent frothing at the mouth for Keenum to make that one last jump to the starting line-up. With how Schaub finished last year, if Keenum were his back up I do think it'd be a big fuss at Schaub's first mistake or bad game.

Anyways, this number 2 QB competition will be interesting to follow. Lots around here do believe that Case has the talent to at least be a back up.

One of the first things that jumps out is the voice. Case Keenum's booming voice is back. It fills up the indoor practice bubble in the first session of the Houston Texans' rookie mini camp, leaving little doubt who's huddle this is.

The former University of Houston legend is back in command, doing what he does best, grabbing the shot much of the NFL was reluctant to give him. He flings on-the-money out passes to the sideline with seemingly little effort. He hits rookie receiver DeAndre Hopkins deep. He even overthrows Hopkins a few times (so much for that "weak" arm). He gets the offense in and out of the huddle quickly, his barked out play calls impossible to miss.

Call it the evolution of a pro quarterback. Yes, a pro quarterback.

The doubts that Case Keenum — who treated all-time NCAA passing records like mere speed bumps at UH — can play at the NFL level have been more than a little ridiculous from the beginning. Art Briles, Kevin Sumlin and now Gary Kubiak have all shown belief in this once unheralded prospect from West Texas. Those are three coaches who've proven they know a little something about the quarterback position.

http://houston.culturemap.com/news/sports/05-12-13-case-keenum-rediscovers-his-command-university-of-houston-star-to-challenge-tj-yates-for-qb-job/

infantrycak
05-20-2013, 09:18 AM
I think it is ridiculous to think the Texans will pay any attention to the desires of Coog fans.

Rey
05-20-2013, 09:37 AM
I think it is ridiculous to think the Texans will pay any attention to the desires of Coog fans.

I don't think they'll pay attention to it, but I do think they think about having a circus type atmosphere regarding their QB situation.

If they truly believe Schaub is their guy, I doubt they'll want any real competition breathing down his neck. But that's not a Texans thing...That's an NFL thing...

But based on Kubiaks comments a little while ago, they may indeed want heat to be put on Schaub.

infantrycak
05-20-2013, 10:08 AM
I disagree that shuffling the order of backup QB's creates any "breathing down the neck" of any starting QB.

Lucky
05-20-2013, 10:21 AM
Even diehard Coog fans are split on Keenum's NFL impact. There will be no local groundswell to replace Schaub as the starter. Unless Schaub is playing very poorly. This is not analogous to VY coming out of UT.

Rey
05-20-2013, 10:25 AM
I disagree that shuffling the order of backup QB's creates any "breathing down the neck" of any starting QB.

Ok.

I won't argue with your opinion.

But I do believe that if Keenum wins the back up QB position there will be even more pressure on Schaub to perform and a good chunk of the fan base will become even less patient with Schaub because it'd mean Keenum would be next in line.


I think it's going to be an interesting dynamic throughout camp to see if Keenum is really given an opprotunity to overtake Yates. And if so, whether or not Yates can hold him off.

Rey
05-20-2013, 10:29 AM
Even diehard Coog fans are split on Keenum's NFL impact.

A split coogs fan base in Houston is still a far greater support group/cheering section than that for TJ Yates.

Part of Keenum's popularity is based on the fact that he was a really good U of H QB.

eriadoc
05-20-2013, 10:53 AM
I'd like to think that it will be an interesting battle, but I think it will play out like it did last preseason. We'll see Schaub a little more than we should and Yates will take the rest of whatever meaningful snaps are left. Keenum will take over in the 4th quarter of preseason games against 3rd stringers and guys fighting for a job. He won't receive the benefit of playing with quality players nor the necessary evaluation of playing against quality players.

Rey
05-20-2013, 10:57 AM
I'd like to think that it will be an interesting battle, but I think it will play out like it did last preseason. We'll see Schaub a little more than we should and Yates will take the rest of whatever meaningful snaps are left. Keenum will take over in the 4th quarter of preseason games against 3rd stringers and guys fighting for a job. He won't receive the benefit of playing with quality players nor the necessary evaluation of playing against quality players.

I think he'll get a few more reps than he did last pre season depending on where McGee is slotted.

If McGee is ahead of him on the depth chart, then you have a Beck situation all over again. If Keenum is your third QB, then he's going to get those reps that Beck got last year...

eriadoc
05-20-2013, 11:00 AM
I think he'll get a few more reps than he did last pre season ...

I hope you're right. I don't know what to make of Keenum yet, but I'd like to see the guy succeed or fail based on a decent opportunity.

infantrycak
05-20-2013, 11:15 AM
I think he'll get a few more reps than he did last pre season depending on where McGee is slotted.

If McGee is ahead of him on the depth chart, then you have a Beck situation all over again. If Keenum is your third QB, then he's going to get those reps that Beck got last year...

I hope you're right. I don't know what to make of Keenum yet, but I'd like to see the guy succeed or fail based on a decent opportunity.

The decent opportunity comes in training camp and practice for the pre-season games. The games are only to see if the wheels fall off the bus from the impressions the coaches already have.

Anyway as to the reps Beck got v. Keenum.

Attempts in pre-season 2012

Schaub 29
Yates 32
Beck 16
Keenum 16

Brisco_County
05-20-2013, 12:08 PM
His reasoning is that if that were to happen, you'd have an immediate QB controversy/a bunch of pressure on Schaub. Right now it's Yates vs Keenum...If Keenum is the back up....all of a sudden he's one spot away from starter.

...

http://houston.culturemap.com/news/sports/05-12-13-case-keenum-rediscovers-his-command-university-of-houston-star-to-challenge-tj-yates-for-qb-job/

The article you linked provides this quote as well: "I think Case is fixing to be extremely competitive with T.J. and Matt," Texans coach Gary Kubiak says."

It is well established that Kubiak believes that competition improves all parties.

Kubiak also stated that he believes Keenum will be a starter in the NFL. He's not going to make that statement, then bury Keenum on the depth chart.

If Keenum does not win the #2 spot, it would be because Yates beats him. My opionion is that Yates will not be #2 in 2013.

CloakNNNdagger
05-20-2013, 12:21 PM
I would hope that the Texans brass would not make a decision on the most “qualified” backup QB based on a concern over Schaub’s emotional lability or the fans’ bearing pressure, should Schaub falter. If the Texans view the potential performance of Schaub in the upcoming season with any semblance of rationality and preparedness, they will put the man showing the most ability to takeover the reins in the #2 spot............period. If a “circus” ensues, it will be because the Texans F.O. allows it, not because a promising #2 QB is making it up the ladder.



BTW, the article the OP linked is the same article that began the thread posted last week, Keenum......"Doubt him at your own risk".... http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100128

painekiller
05-20-2013, 12:27 PM
If Keenum does not win the #2 spot, it would be because Yates beats him. My opionion is that Yates will not be #2 in 2013.

Wow!

And if TJ has a spring and summer like last season you maybe right.

And if this happens, I for one will be disappointed that we did not keep Klein as a guy to develop on the PS.

PapaL
05-20-2013, 01:02 PM
Having a championship team doesn't put pressure on Schaub (after his playoff meltdown) but having Keenum as the backup would?

What is Kubiak suppose to say? "Oh yeah our QBs suck, they're not starting material."

wolf123
05-20-2013, 01:32 PM
I disagree that shuffling the order of backup QB's creates any "breathing down the neck" of any starting QB.

Agree Completely!! If he beats out Yates then he needs to get the reps of the 2's. He needs the pressure every week that he's one play away from live action.

Hervoyel
05-20-2013, 03:33 PM
The only thing that will put heat on Schaub will be losses and his own play (if the former comes in high numbers or the latter falls off even more). Nothing Yates or Keenum or anyone else does will create controversy. The Texans are very good about having their starter (who I am not particularly fond of) and their backups. yes they have a "second string" and a "third string" but I've always felt like the prevailing atmosphere here has been "Schaub's the guy and we're the support cast" and I don't think that's changed any.

I like Keenum and I like Yates fine too. I want the better player to be the first one of the bench and I don't care who that is as long as he's good enough. I'm not stupid enough to let my Cougar fan get in the way of my Texans fan. There's no need to get all Vince Young fan about this kind of thing.

ObsiWan
05-20-2013, 03:51 PM
The only thing that will put heat on Schaub will be losses and his own play. Nothing Yates or Keenum or anyone else does will create controversy.

'Nuff said. This part of the discussion should actually end right here.
But...
if you have some other conspiracy theories on how Kubiak will let media's thoughts or fan whining somehow influence his QB depth chart, I'd like to direct your attention to the little device Agent K (the guy on the left) is holding in his hand. All will be clear in juuust a moment...

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr65/datzMRDorsey/MenInBlack2.gif

leebigeztx
05-20-2013, 08:11 PM
I'm sorry,but Case is not an nfl caliber qb. He has a pop gun arm and is smallish.

eriadoc
05-20-2013, 08:55 PM
I'm sorry,but Case is not an nfl caliber qb. He has a pop gun arm and is smallish.

He may or may not be an NFL caliber QB, but your first assertion is untrue and your second is immaterial, as many smallish QBs have done well in the NFL. It is this irrational perpetuation of BS that makes for great message board fodder though, so knock yourself out.

ObsiWan
05-20-2013, 11:02 PM
I'm sorry,but Case is not an nfl caliber qb. He has a pop gun arm and is smallish.

That's right, because having "size" and a "big arm" is all it takes to be an NFL QB,

Signed, Ryan Leaf and JaMarcus Russell

:sarcasm:

Rey
05-20-2013, 11:18 PM
Looks like I need to throw McGee into the mix as well. Seems like he'll have a good chance at proving himself as well. I think Yates holds onto the number 2 job, but I think Yates and McGee make it a tough decision for kubiak.

PapaL
05-21-2013, 06:08 AM
Looks like I need to throw McGee into the mix as well. Seems like he'll have a good chance at proving himself as well. I think Yates holds onto the number 2 job, but I think Yates and McGee make it a tough decision for kubiak.

If McGee beats out Keenum there's gonna be a lot of murder suicides on this board.

House of Pain
05-23-2013, 02:44 PM
Looks like I need to throw McGee into the mix as well. Seems like he'll have a good chance at proving himself as well. I think Yates holds onto the number 2 job, but I think Yates and McGee make it a tough decision for kubiak.

Not as tough as you think. Did either of them ever play TE?

:kitten:

DocBar
05-23-2013, 11:32 PM
If McGee beats out Keenum there's gonna be a lot of murder suicides on this board.There's no way McGee beats out Case Montana...I mean Keenum. SACRILEDGE!!!!! :chef:

Seriously, I think Keenum has a chance to be the back up QB this year. Regardless, I hope the best QB wins the job.

chenjy9
05-29-2013, 06:27 PM
It's kind of like to WR situation for me. I don't care which one of them develops as long as one of them does. We need to find our replacement QB as soon as possible.

kingtexan
05-30-2013, 08:40 AM
I'm sorry,but Case is not an nfl caliber qb. He has a pop gun arm and is smallish.

Case is as big as Brees and can throw farther than Schaub, so not sure what you are saying.

Rey
05-30-2013, 08:45 AM
Well...Looks like Case is going to get a real shot to make the roster...

He and Yates took the 1st team reps yesterday...

76Texan
05-30-2013, 09:36 AM
Case Keenum 6-5/8" 209lbs
Russell Wilson 5'11"204lbs
Doug Flutie 5'10"180lbs

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=75061&draftyear=2012&genpos=QB

"I had one scout tell me that he felt Keenum has "above average" arm strength."
Sam Khan, Jr. - Houston Chronicle

http://blogs.ourlads.com/2013/03/27/quarterback-ball-velocity-at-nfl-combine-2008-2012/

Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2013
Casey Keenum, Houston 55
Russell Wilson, Wisconsin 55
Geno Smith, West Virginia 55
EJ Manuel, Florida State 54
Collin Klein, Kansas State 52
Cam Newton, Auburn 56
Jake Locker, Washington 54
TJ Yates, North Carolina 52
Christian Ponder, Florida St 51
Stephen McGee, Texas A & M 53
Joe Flacco, Delaware 55
Chad Henne, Michigan 53
Matt Flynn, LSU 50

CloakNNNdagger
05-30-2013, 12:01 PM
Case Keenum 6-5/8" 209lbs
Russell Wilson 5'11"204lbs
Doug Flutie 5'10"180lbs

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=75061&draftyear=2012&genpos=QB

"I had one scout tell me that he felt Keenum has "above average" arm strength."
Sam Khan, Jr. - Houston Chronicle

http://blogs.ourlads.com/2013/03/27/quarterback-ball-velocity-at-nfl-combine-2008-2012/



Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2013
Casey Keenum, Houston 55
Russell Wilson, Wisconsin 55
Geno Smith, West Virginia 55
EJ Manuel, Florida State 54
Collin Klein, Kansas State 52
Cam Newton, Auburn 56
Jake Locker, Washington 54
TJ Yates, North Carolina 52
Christian Ponder, Florida St 51
Stephen McGee, Texas A & M 53
Joe Flacco, Delaware 55
Chad Henne, Michigan 53
Matt Flynn, LSU 50

Rep coming your way. Anyone who watched Keenum in college would know that he has an arm. And I am certainly not a U of H person. But, having watched him often in college, I have a problem with those that now trash his arm strength. That's just an invalid statement, and that if you want to find criticism, you might look elsewhere.

Victor B
05-30-2013, 12:09 PM
Rep coming your way. Anyone who watched Keenum in college would know that he has an arm. And I am certainly not a U of H person. But, having watched him often in college, I have a problem with those that now trash his arm strength. That's just an invalid statement, and that if you want to find criticism, you might look elsewhere.

Agreed. The "no arm" thing came from some talking heads who didn't know anything about him coming out of college and into the draft. UH offense is primarily based around screens but it doesn't mean he can't throw the long ball or throw with speed. Same thing for those who don't think he is mobile.

Go back and watch footage of him from his freshman year in 2007. When Art Briles was HC at UH Keenum was a runner. When Sumlin arrived he put a stop to that. Go Youtube UH vs Oregon 2007.

Double Barrel
05-30-2013, 12:14 PM
Yikes, the off-season, where verbal battles occur over two mediocre backup QBs. :headhurts:

Rey
05-30-2013, 12:24 PM
Case Keenum 6-5/8" 209lbs
Russell Wilson 5'11"204lbs
Doug Flutie 5'10"180lbs

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=75061&draftyear=2012&genpos=QB

"I had one scout tell me that he felt Keenum has "above average" arm strength."
Sam Khan, Jr. - Houston Chronicle

http://blogs.ourlads.com/2013/03/27/quarterback-ball-velocity-at-nfl-combine-2008-2012/

Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2013
Casey Keenum, Houston 55
Russell Wilson, Wisconsin 55
Geno Smith, West Virginia 55
EJ Manuel, Florida State 54
Collin Klein, Kansas State 52
Cam Newton, Auburn 56
Jake Locker, Washington 54
TJ Yates, North Carolina 52
Christian Ponder, Florida St 51
Stephen McGee, Texas A & M 53
Joe Flacco, Delaware 55
Chad Henne, Michigan 53
Matt Flynn, LSU 50

I've watched keenum throw a bunch of passes and the dude throws darts. Especially on those short passes.

PapaL
05-30-2013, 12:47 PM
Yikes, the off-season, where verbal battles occur over two mediocre backup QBs. :headhurts:

But but but one guy was really good in college and the other guy won a playoff game as a rookie! :wild:

jaayteetx
05-30-2013, 01:35 PM
How mobile is Keenum? I'm sick of seeing Schaub unable to make ANY kind of play once the called play breaks down

kingtexan
05-30-2013, 01:41 PM
Yikes, the off-season, where verbal battles occur over two mediocre backup QBs. :headhurts:

Either of which possibly could prove to be better than the starter if given an entire season to prove it.

PapaL
05-30-2013, 02:08 PM
Either of which possibly could prove to be better than the starter if given an entire season to prove it.

And both could just as easily prove to be worse too. Works both ways.

kingtexan
05-30-2013, 02:15 PM
And both could just as easily prove to be worse too. Works both ways.

Absolutely.

We will never know unless they get game time, which hopefully we can avoid and keep our starter healthy, and he doesn't make too many mistakes and we improve this season. However, seeing as both of them have stronger arms and more mobility than Matt, I wouldn't panic if either of them had to take the reigns. Accuracy comes with making good decisions, which should improve with game experience. Typically folks who aren't accurate after years in the league are just making poor decisions and aren't mentally tough enough to win. If they couldn't throw the ball where it needed to be at some point in college, or camp/practice, then they wouldn't be NFL QB's. Hope this proves to be a great year for Schaub, but we have some decent back-ups if it doesn't.

chenjy9
05-30-2013, 02:27 PM
Yikes, the off-season, where verbal battles occur over two mediocre backup QBs. :headhurts:

Due to complete lack of faith by most fans in our starting QB. If Schaub could carry the team worth a damn, we wouldn't even care about Yates or Keenum.

The Pencil Neck
05-30-2013, 02:51 PM
Due to complete lack of faith by most fans in our starting QB. If Schaub could carry the team worth a damn, we wouldn't even care about Yates or Keenum.

There's an old saying that the most popular man on any team is the 2nd string QB. That's because the fans often blame all the teams problems on the 1st string QB and think the 2nd stringer would be better.

drs23
05-30-2013, 03:35 PM
There's an old saying that the most popular man on any team is the 2nd string QB. That's because the fans often blame all the teams problems on the 1st string QB and think the 2nd stringer would be better.

Right on Right on Right on. And it's always been that way.

chenjy9
05-30-2013, 03:40 PM
There's an old saying that the most popular man on any team is the 2nd string QB. That's because the fans often blame all the teams problems on the 1st string QB and think the 2nd stringer would be better.

Considering how much he is payed and how he performs, I don't think it's unfair. It comes with the job. The QB is the general of the offense and Schaub is our highest paid player. AJ and Foster, while great offensive weapons, cannot throw the ball. Until Schaub shows he can carry the Texans consistently when needed, it will be in the Texans best interest to finding his replacement. Hopefully that is either Yates or Keenum so we wont have to look far.

CloakNNNdagger
05-30-2013, 03:58 PM
How mobile is Keenum? I'm sick of seeing Schaub unable to make ANY kind of play once the called play breaks down

Very!

eriadoc
05-30-2013, 04:02 PM
There's an old saying that the most popular man on any team is the 2nd string QB. That's because the fans often blame all the teams problems on the 1st string QB and think the 2nd stringer would be better.

Except no one is saying Keenum will be better. After last preseason, no one is even saying Yates will be better. There are people who want to see what both of these guys can do in training camp and preseason. That's a far cry from saying they will be better. But we know what we have in Schaub. Preseason is the time to find out what we have in the other guys.

ArlingtonTexan
05-30-2013, 04:16 PM
Yikes, the off-season, where verbal battles occur over two mediocre backup QBs. :headhurts:

well, yeah, there really is not much to talk about, so I kinda give this a pass. the only thing i find funny is the people using some form of replacemnt or future starter when talking about either of them.

CloakNNNdagger
05-30-2013, 04:21 PM
When Yates' questionable performance last year comes up, Kubiak refers to him being injured last year. He appeared on the Injury Report first in week 9. His preseason performance was lackluster to say the least during which he was sacked 8 times in 3 games. He appeared in week 6 with a 2 of 5 40% completion rate, 1 interception and a QB rating of 15. Then while on the Injury List, he appeared in week 14 with a 2 of 4 50% completion rate for a 59.4 QBR. And he appeared last in week 16 with a 0 of 1 0% completion rate with taking a sack and earning a 39.6 QBR. Certainly, a small sample size, but nothing that you could explain away by injury alone. Maybe it's just me, but this doesn't exactly lead me to wanting to clamor to have his name called on Sundays as that supposedly "most popular man on the team."

Double Barrel
05-30-2013, 05:01 PM
Due to complete lack of faith by most fans in our starting QB.

Sounds very subjective. How do you quantify "most fans"? Forums? Sports talk radio? That accounts for maybe 1% of our fanbase.

If Schaub could carry the team worth a damn, we wouldn't even care about Yates or Keenum.

Ahhh, the old "Texans went 22-10 over the last two seasons in spite of their starting QB and his 6500 passing yards" routine. :ok:

If you honestly believe that either Yates or Keenum could carry this team better than Schaub in 2013, the only thing I can say is that I am really glad you are a fan and not part of this coaching staff.

thunderkyss
05-30-2013, 05:26 PM
Matt Flynn, LSU 50

That's why he gets so much love around here.... I couldn't figure it out. I'm not seeing special when I see the guy, but he's got to be the most hyped back-up since SageRosenfels.

thunderkyss
05-30-2013, 05:51 PM
Absolutely.

We will never know unless they get game time, which hopefully we can avoid and keep our starter healthy, and he doesn't make too many mistakes and we improve this season. However, seeing as both of them have stronger arms and more mobility than Matt, I wouldn't panic if either of them had to take the reigns.

Accuracy comes with making good decisions, which should improve with game experience.

Hope this proves to be a great year for Schaub, but we have some decent back-ups if it doesn't.

I pretty much feel the same way. This is a QB friendly system & as long as Yates/Keenum can keep from being stupid.... we can win some games, we've got a lot of talent, for what we want to do.

I'm not dying to see either of them mind you, but I am intrigued.

beerlover
05-31-2013, 08:01 AM
Don't see competition as Case vs Yates until something happens to Schaub. Kubiak did not insert TJ even when there were plenty opportunities. I really think Yates can play, in fact he gives Texans harder offense to game plan against. Case however maybe the future post Schaub.

Thorn
05-31-2013, 08:32 AM
I'm hoping Case is the guy, but I don't care who the starting QB is as long as he's good. Schaub is going to have to be replaced at some point anyway.

badboy
05-31-2013, 08:41 AM
I'm hoping Case is the guy, but I don't care who the starting QB is as long as he's good. Schaub is going to have to be replaced at some point anyway.If we can develop starting QB and corners from our roster that would sure help our next draft plan.

Rey
05-31-2013, 09:34 AM
I think Case could easily be a better QB than Schaub if given time. I'm not sure about Yates. He has the tools, but he makes some head scratching decisions sometimes. I'd like for him to be a little more reserved at times.

I think Case if very smart, reads defenses fast and is very accurate.

I'm interested in seeing them both compete for the back up job.

If something happened and one of them had to take some time being the number 1 QB, I would not panic. It might be a little bumpy here and there, but I don't think Schaub brings so much to the table that if you lose him your season outlook significantly changes.

The offense doesn't revolve around what he brings to the table as the QB like in some other offenses.

Don't get me wrong....I'd rather have Schaub. But I honestly don't believe the team greatly suffers when he's out. I think we are a bit worse overall...But I think we are about the same.

DocBar
05-31-2013, 11:05 AM
I pretty much feel the same way. This is a QB friendly system & as long as Yates/Keenum can keep from being stupid.... we can win some games, we've got a lot of talent, for what we want to do.

I'm not dying to see either of them mind you, but I am intrigued.It should be telling when we see who gets the most snaps in preseason. Like you, I'm intrigued.

As to another post that stated that we didn't see Yates even when there were opportunities to play him, I say that's kinda smart by Kubiak (barring Schaub getting injured in garbage time) because it never lets a real QB controversy start. If Yates came in and did some really good things, the next time Schaub had a bad game, people would be screaming for Yates.

thunderkyss
05-31-2013, 11:16 AM
If something happened and one of them had to take some time being the number 1 QB, I would not panic. It might be a little bumpy here and there, but I don't think Schaub brings so much to the table that if you lose him your season outlook significantly changes.


The only reservation I have about drafting Schaub's replacement now, is that I don't think we're ready for it. I don't want to be in a position where we have to give up an entire draft to get our starter.

Even though Washington had a good draft in 2012, & 2013 I would've been uncomfortable with that. After watching RG3 his rookie year, not so much. But they still had a crap load of picks in both years.

I liked how Denver was able to move up & get Cutler, I would have been fine with a move like that.

I'd have liked to have seen RickSmith start stockpiling future picks the last couple of years so we would be able to do something like that, if we saw our guy somewhere in the 5 to 15 range.

At the same time, I like how Holmgren was able to get Hasselbeck, who I've always liked as a starting QB, when he was in Seattle. Payton wanted to bring Romo with him when he went to N.O. that would have been interesting. Them getting Brees, that was a "stars aligning" kind of thing, you usually don't see that kind of player available in FA. & we've done pretty good with Schaub and that only cost us two 2nds.... & with QBs like Kolb, Flyn, Palmer, & the like out there, I think our options will probably extend beyond the draft.

But no, I'm not worried about starting Yates/Keenum if it comes down to it. We'll win some, we'll lose some but at the end of the day, we'll move forward... I think.

Honoring Earl 34
05-31-2013, 11:48 AM
The only reservation I have about drafting Schaub's replacement now, is that I don't think we're ready for it. I don't want to be in a position where we have to give up an entire draft to get our starter.

Even though Washington had a good draft in 2012, & 2013 I would've been uncomfortable with that. After watching RG3 his rookie year, not so much. But they still had a crap load of picks in both years.

I liked how Denver was able to move up & get Cutler, I would have been fine with a move like that.

I'd have liked to have seen RickSmith start stockpiling future picks the last couple of years so we would be able to do something like that, if we saw our guy somewhere in the 5 to 15 range.

At the same time, I like how Holmgren was able to get Hasselbeck, who I've always liked as a starting QB, when he was in Seattle. Payton wanted to bring Romo with him when he went to N.O. that would have been interesting. Them getting Brees, that was a "stars aligning" kind of thing, you usually don't see that kind of player available in FA. & we've done pretty good with Schaub and that only cost us two 2nds.... & with QBs like Kolb, Flyn, Palmer, & the like out there, I think our options will probably extend beyond the draft.

But no, I'm not worried about starting Yates/Keenum if it comes down to it. We'll win some, we'll lose some but at the end of the day, we'll move forward... I think.

The thing about QBs is , how many frogs do you have to kiss before you get a prince ? I'm not sure how long it takes to figure this out but after a couple of years you'd think they have an idea .

paycheck71
05-31-2013, 11:51 AM
The thing about QBs is , how many frogs do you have to kiss before you get a prince ? I'm not sure how long it takes to figure this out but after a couple of years you'd think they have an idea .

Unless you're the Packers or the Colts, it can be very frustrating. I remember reading an interesting bit somewhere that the Bears had 17 different starting QB's during Favre's years in GB.

The Pencil Neck
05-31-2013, 12:44 PM
The thing about QBs is , how many frogs do you have to kiss before you get a prince ? I'm not sure how long it takes to figure this out but after a couple of years you'd think they have an idea .

The problem is that "they" is the NFL as a whole.

Upgrading the QB position when you've got a good QB is hard thing to do. There's some luck and some chance involved.

People sometimes forget this but the Packers were all set with Don Majkowski. He led the league in passing one year and then had a couple of years shortened by injury. When the Packers traded for Favre, Favre wasn't expected to be The Guy, Majkowski was supposed to be it.

Brian Billick was the "offensive mastermind" who put together the awesome Minnesota offense that looked great with all sorts of QBs at the helm (Moon, Cunningham, Culpepper, Johnson, etc.) Then he goes to Baltimore and... he can't EVEN figure out drafting the QB position. The Dolphins are still looking for Marino's replacement.

I'm fine with upgrading any position on the team, especially the QB. I'm not married to Schaub and I realize he's got limitations. If we can get a guy better than him at running this offense, great. I just don't believe it's as easy to do as some people on this board think. Over the years, I've seen too many teams swing and miss on drafting QBs to have any level of comfort that ANY FO, including this one, can hit on drafting one at will. And I don't think there are any other guys out there I'd be willing to trade for that are available for trade that would be an upgrade over Schaub. I think we could probably find an upgrade for TJ/Case but I think even then the price would be too steep.

thunderkyss
05-31-2013, 01:15 PM
Over the years, I've seen too many teams swing and miss on drafting QBs to have any level of comfort that ANY FO, including this one, can hit on drafting one at will.

I agree. I'd like to add that though it appears Harbaugh figured it out, or Carol, or Pagano, or Shanahan figured it out, remember when Romo took the league by storm, or when Sam Bradford flashed, or Stafford, or Cam Newton.

I know it's only going on year three for Cam, & there's still hope for Bradford & Stafford, & Romo is putting up Schaub like numbers..... but whatever type of QB you're looking for those guys provide examples that shows you're going to need a team, regardless. Phillip Rivers is another one.

& if you believe every year is unique, Schaub got us as far as Peyton got his team, as far as Rogers got his team, as Russell Wilson got his team. That doesn't mean that Schaub is good enough to get us to a SuperBowl, but at the very least it shows that sometimes the QB isn't enough, even when you're looking at Peyton, Rogers, & Wilson.

Number19
05-31-2013, 02:02 PM
...Kubiak did not insert TJ even when there were plenty opportunities...I'm a firm believer in giving your backup QB quality playing time with the first team, when game situations allow it. It just doesn't happen, though. I think coaches think it is disruptive to the team and players.

Honoring Earl 34
05-31-2013, 02:11 PM
The problem is that "they" is the NFL as a whole.

Upgrading the QB position when you've got a good QB is hard thing to do. There's some luck and some chance involved.

People sometimes forget this but the Packers were all set with Don Majkowski. He led the league in passing one year and then had a couple of years shortened by injury. When the Packers traded for Favre, Favre wasn't expected to be The Guy, Majkowski was supposed to be it.

Brian Billick was the "offensive mastermind" who put together the awesome Minnesota offense that looked great with all sorts of QBs at the helm (Moon, Cunningham, Culpepper, Johnson, etc.) Then he goes to Baltimore and... he can't EVEN figure out drafting the QB position. The Dolphins are still looking for Marino's replacement.

I'm fine with upgrading any position on the team, especially the QB. I'm not married to Schaub and I realize he's got limitations. If we can get a guy better than him at running this offense, great. I just don't believe it's as easy to do as some people on this board think. Over the years, I've seen too many teams swing and miss on drafting QBs to have any level of comfort that ANY FO, including this one, can hit on drafting one at will. And I don't think there are any other guys out there I'd be willing to trade for that are available for trade that would be an upgrade over Schaub. I think we could probably find an upgrade for TJ/Case but I think even then the price would be too steep.

I think Ron Wulf knew Glanville hated Favre and made him an offer . Wulf drafted Favre for the Falcons before moving on to the Packers .

The only team that I've seen not stockpiling QBs was Manning's Colts . Most have some project QBs and some hold them as a commodity to trade . The Texans had Sage for awhile who had some value .

Qbs are hard because you can have talent , do great on the Wunderlich , diagram plays on a board , then get popped in the chin by a LB on your first play and come apart like a cheap rug . You don't have it .

Double Barrel
05-31-2013, 02:40 PM
I'm fine with upgrading any position on the team, especially the QB. I'm not married to Schaub and I realize he's got limitations. If we can get a guy better than him at running this offense, great. I just don't believe it's as easy to do as some people on this board think.

QFT MSR

This is exactly where I'm at. No problem when they move on from Schaub, but until they have something that they know is better, they have to go with what they know. In 2013, clearly Schaub gives the Texans the best chance over the other QBs on the roster right now.

beerlover
05-31-2013, 03:10 PM
I'm a firm believer in giving your backup QB quality playing time with the first team, when game situations allow it. It just doesn't happen, though. I think coaches think it is disruptive to the team and players.

This is a common practice which is disruptive to developing a team as a whole. Your right about starting QB's in general usually getting their way like divas on a dance floor. They love to compete & build their own resumes but risking injury & future of season by not coming out in garbage or other than essential situations plain selfish & self serving. TJ accepted his role last year but I felt for him & @ times felt Schuab should have been benched, no different than when Arian Foster fumbles.

b0ng
05-31-2013, 03:34 PM
This is a common practice which is disruptive to developing a team as a whole. Your right about starting QB's in general usually getting their way like divas on a dance floor. They love to compete & build their own resumes but risking injury & future of season by not coming out in garbage or other than essential situations plain selfish & self serving. TJ accepted his role last year but I felt for him & @ times felt Schuab should have been benched, no different than when Arian Foster fumbles.

Of course it's much different than when Arian Foster fumbles because he's a runningback and Schaub is a quarterback. The reasoning behind that is that if you want to teach an RB a lesson you can sit him on the bench for a series or two, and it's not that huge of a disruption to your offense, not as much so with a QB. I'm pretty sure if Kubiak told Schaub to come out of the game and let TJ take some snaps in live action, Schaub's not going to be the guy who stays on the field in defiance.

CloakNNNdagger
05-31-2013, 04:11 PM
Yates had 3 limited opportunities in "garbage" time last year. These were all in games that we were being blown out (not in games we were way ahead). Typically in these situations, the backup has an opportunity to positively skew/pad his numbers. However, in those games, he accumulated a QB rating of 11.7.

Hervoyel
05-31-2013, 04:26 PM
Yikes, the off-season, where verbal battles occur over two mediocre backup QBs. :headhurts:

I'm a big Keenum fan but I have to admit, I don't even know if we're there yet. Can a guy who hasn't spent any time on an NFL roster even be called a "mediocre" backup?

It's all waiting for us in the future. Just a few short months away and this argument will begin to be settled.

Hopefully

ChampionTexan
05-31-2013, 04:55 PM
I think Ron Wulf knew Glanville hated Favre and made him an offer . Wulf drafted Favre for the Falcons before moving on to the Packers .

Wolf never worked for the Falcons - prior to joining Green Bay in 1991, he worked for the Raiders, Bucs, and Jets, but never the Falcons. As to the idea that Wolf knew Glanville hated Favre, here's Wolf's own description of the beginnings of the Favre trade:

When I came to Green Bay in November 1991, we played Atlanta in the first game that I was here. And they let me know that [Favre] was going to be available. So, when I found that out, that was an easy sell for me to the team’s board of directors. I came in and told them there’s this guy we can get to be our quarterback and we’re going to make every effort to do that. Hopefully it won’t cost a number one pick, but if it does, we have two. And they went with me on it because I prepped them so much about it.
LINK (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/2001/draft/news/2001/04/18/wolf_sidebar/)

The Pencil Neck
05-31-2013, 05:31 PM
Wolf never worked for the Falcons - prior to joining Green Bay in 1991, he worked for the Raiders, Bucs, and Jets, but never the Falcons. As to the idea that Wolf knew Glanville hated Favre, here's Wolf's own description of the beginnings of the Favre trade:


LINK (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/2001/draft/news/2001/04/18/wolf_sidebar/)

Well, I stand corrected. Maybe they did see Favre as the Guy to take over for the Majic Man. I don't think they expected it to happen as quickly as it did, though.

ChampionTexan
05-31-2013, 05:42 PM
Well, I stand corrected. Maybe they did see Favre as the Guy to take over for the Majic Man. I don't think they expected it to happen as quickly as it did, though.

They might not have. It could also be that they believed that the injury Majkowski suffered in 1990 was one he'd have a hard time ever fully recovering from. The thing that says the most to me about their ultimate intent for Favre was the fact they gave up a first rounder for him.

thunderkyss
05-31-2013, 06:06 PM
I'm a firm believer in giving your backup QB quality playing time with the first team, when game situations allow it. It just doesn't happen, though. I think coaches think it is disruptive to the team and players.

I think we take for granted how delicate team chemistry really is.

Ours is still a young team & we've seen how young teams give games away. The Rams, the Lions, the Colts, the Texans... thankfully Kubiak's conservatism or whatever helped us to lose only four games.

The Pencil Neck
05-31-2013, 06:13 PM
They might not have. It could also be that they believed that the injury Majkowski suffered in 1990 was one he'd have a hard time ever fully recovering from. The thing that says the most to me about their ultimate intent for Favre was the fact they gave up a first rounder for him.


Exactly. I'd forgotten what they'd given up to get him. I remember him being a semi-surprise 2nd rounder and then Wolf really wanted him.

But giving up a 1st rounder to get him implies they had high hopes for him.

steelbtexan
05-31-2013, 10:50 PM
If the goal is to win a SB then Schaub isn't the guy. (Due to injury) IMHO

So every yr Schaub remains the QB is a yr wasted. It's a yr a potential yong QB could be learning his trade on the field.

ChampionTexan
05-31-2013, 10:53 PM
If the goal is to win a SB then Schaub isn't the guy. (Due to injury) IMHO

So every yr Schaub remains the QB is a yr wasted. It's a yr a potential yong QB could be learning his trade on the field.

Kinda like when the Oilers traded Moon to Minnesota so Cody Carlson could be the starter? Yeah, that worked out well. Let's follow that model.

eriadoc
05-31-2013, 11:49 PM
Kinda like when the Oilers traded Moon to Minnesota so Cody Carlson could be the starter? Yeah, that worked out well. Let's follow that model.

Or kind of like when Tampa traded Steve Young so Vinny Testaverde could be the starter. NOTE: I'm not disagreeing with you as much as pointing out the silliness of your retort. Teams make mistakes all the time with QBs and you never really know what you have until they're out on the field.

steelbtexan
06-01-2013, 12:27 AM
Kinda like when the Oilers traded Moon to Minnesota so Cody Carlson could be the starter? Yeah, that worked out well. Let's follow that model.


Give me great or terrible.

Shoot for the moon, identify a franchise QB in next yrs draft and then trade what ever is necessary to get said QB. It's all about risk/reward.

Mediocrity is a terrible place to be.

The Pencil Neck
06-01-2013, 12:32 AM
Or kind of like when Tampa traded Steve Young so Vinny Testaverde could be the starter. NOTE: I'm not disagreeing with you as much as pointing out the silliness of your retort. Teams make mistakes all the time with QBs and you never really know what you have until they're out on the field.

I don't see your example as disagreement as much as agreement.

The Pencil Neck
06-01-2013, 12:50 AM
Give me great or terrible.

Shoot for the moon, identify a franchise QB in next yrs draft and then trade what ever is necessary to get said QB. It's all about risk/reward.

Mediocrity is a terrible place to be.

I'm starting to think your definition of "mediocrity" is whatever the Texans are doing and wherever they are in the standings.

thunderkyss
06-01-2013, 08:45 AM
Give me great or terrible.

Shoot for the moon, identify a franchise QB in next yrs draft and then trade what ever is necessary to get said QB. It's all about risk/reward.

Mediocrity is a terrible place to be.

But what if they think Matt Schaub is their franchise QB?

In all seriousness.

There were a lot of people thinking the same about JoeFlacco as little as six months ago. What if Baltimore had decided, like you, that they were done with mediocrity? What if Atlanta figured they had enough?

What if Kubiak truly believes he hit the jackpot & has two franchise guys in Yates & Keenum? We're always talking how sometimes even a first round QB needs to sit on the bench for a year or more..... ala Aaron Rogers, but they normally don't get that opportunity anymore.

Well, now we've got two great prospects who've had a year & then some.

But I don't think you should be given the starting QBs job, I think it should be earned. The starter gets hurt, then you come in & make it hard to take you out of the game. Like Tony Romo, like Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Doug Flutie... Collin Kaepernick

Rey
06-01-2013, 02:03 PM
To me, the back up qb position is a battle to watch because Schaub hasn't been the healthiest guy, and down the stretch last year he struggled. And jmo, but I'm not going to rule out a Super Bowl if Yates or keenum have to play. I don't think kubiak is just blowing smoke when he talks up the competition and mentions how far keenum has come and how he looks like a different player.

Ryan
06-01-2013, 03:40 PM
Give me great or terrible.

Shoot for the moon, identify a franchise QB in next yrs draft and then trade what ever is necessary to get said QB. It's all about risk/reward.

Mediocrity is a terrible place to be.


If you think we are mediocre now what were we in the Capers/Casserly/Carr era?

Give me a break.

Marshall
06-01-2013, 07:58 PM
Ok.

I won't argue with your opinion.

But I do believe that if Keenum wins the back up QB position there will be even more pressure on Schaub to perform and a good chunk of the fan base will become even less patient with Schaub because it'd mean Keenum would be next in line.


I think it's going to be an interesting dynamic throughout camp to see if Keenum is really given an opprotunity to overtake Yates. And if so, whether or not Yates can hold him off.

There will be pressure on Schaub to perform because he's an NFL QB. It doesn't matter who his backup is.

Rey
06-02-2013, 02:04 AM
There will be pressure on Schaub to perform because he's an NFL QB. It doesn't matter who his backup is.

What part of "even more" don't you understand?

Marshall
06-02-2013, 05:11 AM
What part of "even more" don't you understand?

I understand. I just disagree.

What part of "doesn't matter" don't YOU understand?

ArTex
06-02-2013, 06:04 AM
If Texans didnt anticipate local fanatic support or "circus" when acquiring Keenum, and consider that to be a big distraction, they shouldnt have brought him in. They could have stayed with the subtle route of Yates or gone with someone else.

He's on the team. If he belongs and is worthy of #2 depth spot, then thats where you put him regardless of attention. If Keenum is ever a legit playable option, there won't really be a "perfect time" to do it without attention. Its just gonna come with the territory.

Might sound odd but, I think Kubiak is playing it right. He's saying that its hard COMPETITION AGAINST his starting QB as a THREAT. But he's not directly MARGINALIZING his accomplished starting QB (like how everyone wants). Its letting everyone know its a business all the same.

If this was a rebuilding team then the fan favorite support would actually work as a marketing charm as long as Keenum doesnt completely suck. But since its a WIN-NOW team for the SB, then Keenum just better be GOOD ENOUGH to fit into that plan.

There still won't be anything wrong with Yates as backup and Keenum 3rd string, it'd still mean he's moved up and another year closer.

steelbtexan
06-02-2013, 10:11 AM
I'm starting to think your definition of "mediocrity" is whatever the Texans are doing and wherever they are in the standings.

Not true

I just dont think the will ever win a SB with Schaub as QB or Gary as HC. Every yr they continue to lead this team is a yr wasted. IMHO

ArlingtonTexan
06-02-2013, 10:15 AM
If Texans didnt anticipate local fanatic support or "circus" when acquiring Keenum, and consider that to be a big distraction, they shouldnt have brought him in. They could have stayed with the subtle route of Yates or gone with someone else.

He's on the team. If he belongs and is worthy of #2 depth spot, then thats where you put him regardless of attention. If Keenum is ever a legit playable option, there won't really be a "perfect time" to do it without attention. Its just gonna come with the territory.

Might sound odd but, I think Kubiak is playing it right. He's saying that its hard COMPETITION AGAINST his starting QB as a THREAT. But he's not directly MARGINALIZING his accomplished starting QB (like how everyone wants). Its letting everyone know its a business all the same.

If this was a rebuilding team then the fan favorite support would actually work as a marketing charm as long as Keenum doesnt completely suck. But since its a WIN-NOW team for the SB, then Keenum just better be GOOD ENOUGH to fit into that plan.

There still won't be anything wrong with Yates as backup and Keenum 3rd string, it'd still mean he's moved up and another year closer.

there is more talk on this message baord about Case Keenum than anywhere else. He IS NOT some sort of distraction because the 2% of Texans fans who care about both coog football and the texans mention him more than if he went to East Carolina or Arkansas State or Idaho. I have a first thing first attitude toawrds him. he managed to stick around last year (good), he is at least challenging TJ yates (good), let him clearly out play TJ Yates and win the 2nd job.

The Pencil Neck
06-02-2013, 11:55 AM
Not true

I just dont think the will ever win a SB with Schaub as QB or Gary as HC. Every yr they continue to lead this team is a yr wasted. IMHO

When they were 8-8 and not in the playoffs, there wasn't much to be said. That's middle of the road and although for me "mediocrity" has connotations of being LESS than just middle of the road, 8-8 and not in the playoffs could easily fit the description of mediocre.

For me 5-7 wins is more my definition of "mediocre."

But 12-4 or 10-6 and winning the division and winning a playoff game is not.

From your quoted statement, it seems that anything less than a SB is mediocre. And, to me, that's just a mis-use of the word.

steelbtexan
06-02-2013, 12:36 PM
When they were 8-8 and not in the playoffs, there wasn't much to be said. That's middle of the road and although for me "mediocrity" has connotations of being LESS than just middle of the road, 8-8 and not in the playoffs could easily fit the description of mediocre.

For me 5-7 wins is more my definition of "mediocre."

But 12-4 or 10-6 and winning the division and winning a playoff game is not.

From your quoted statement, it seems that anything less than a SB is mediocre. And, to me, that's just a mis-use of the word.

How many yrs were they 7-9, 9-7? Dexman has it posted somewhere.

How much farther did they get in the playoffs last yr with their vet QB, vs a late rd rookie QB? That may be good enough for some people, but I want to see progress.

Fans in Houston have been programmed to the aww shucks routine of good is good enough. I'm not one of those kind of fans, sorry my sights may be set too high for most on this MB. But to me with football/business etc it's about win or else and if you dont set you're goals to be the best then you never will be the best.

PS, how many yrs does Gary get before the we will have to adjust to a new offense routine wears out? 8 yrs? 10 yrs? 20 yrs? When would you say enough is enugh? I think Gary did his best job coaching since he's been here last yr. BTW

Marshall
06-02-2013, 01:14 PM
Not true

I just dont think the will ever win a SB with Schaub as QB or Gary as HC. Every yr they continue to lead this team is a yr wasted. IMHO

True.

thunderkyss
06-02-2013, 01:19 PM
Not true

I just dont think the will ever win a SB with Schaub as QB or Gary as HC. Every yr they continue to lead this team is a yr wasted. IMHO

I remember back when Kubiak was hired. We discussed what would make this organization successful.

We all (for the most part) agreed that winning the SuperBowl is a one in a million kind of thing. There have been many "successful" teams that did not win Super Bowls. & most of us were fine with that.

Perrenial Play-Offs, that's what we considered successful.

But ever since we said that, we've continued to move the target on Kubiak's regime. Most likely because we "feel" like we were close. Whether we had a 6-10 team, or an 8-8 team, we thought we should have won the SuperBowl.

Now I'm not saying I don't want this team to win the SuperBowl, only that you never know. I guarantee you go back over the last 7 or 8 years, the team you thought was going to win it..... didn't.


So we'd all be better off, & this clubs chances of winning a Super Bowl would be better, if we thought like you did.

steelbtexan
06-02-2013, 02:03 PM
I remember back when Kubiak was hired. We discussed what would make this organization successful.

We all (for the most part) agreed that winning the SuperBowl is a one in a million kind of thing. There have been many "successful" teams that did not win Super Bowls. & most of us were fine with that.

Perrenial Play-Offs, that's what we considered successful.

But ever since we said that, we've continued to move the target on Kubiak's regime. Most likely because we "feel" like we were close. Whether we had a 6-10 team, or an 8-8 team, we thought we should have won the SuperBowl.

Now I'm not saying I don't want this team to win the SuperBowl, only that you never know. I guarantee you go back over the last 7 or 8 years, the team you thought was going to win it..... didn't.


So we'd all be better off, & this clubs chances of winning a Super Bowl would be better, if we thought like you did.

I never did get an answer on how long Rick/Gary get before they lose there jobs? I will answer my own question, a long time, because BoB doesn't like traumatic things like change.

infantrycak
06-02-2013, 02:14 PM
I never did get an answer on how long Rick/Gary get before they lose there jobs? I will answer my own question, a long time, because BoB doesn't like traumatic things like change.

It isn't a McNair thing. It is rare as hell to see a coach and GM fired when they are going 12-4 and winning the division.

thunderkyss
06-02-2013, 02:24 PM
I never did get an answer on how long Rick/Gary get before they lose there jobs? I will answer my own question, a long time, because BoB doesn't like traumatic things like change.

How long do they get for what?

Win a SuperBowl? I'm sure they get as long as any other winning combination. Or even non-losing. Remember when we wanted them gone, that was Rick's only losing season & Gary's second.

I know other teams have been less patient with their Coach/GM, but for the life of me I can't think of one that is in a better position than the Texans are today.

The Pencil Neck
06-02-2013, 02:27 PM
How many yrs were they 7-9, 9-7? Dexman has it posted somewhere.

How much farther did they get in the playoffs last yr with their vet QB, vs a late rd rookie QB? That may be good enough for some people, but I want to see progress.

Fans in Houston have been programmed to the aww shucks routine of good is good enough. I'm not one of those kind of fans, sorry my sights may be set too high for most on this MB. But to me with football/business etc it's about win or else and if you dont set you're goals to be the best then you never will be the best.

PS, how many yrs does Gary get before the we will have to adjust to a new offense routine wears out? 8 yrs? 10 yrs? 20 yrs? When would you say enough is enugh? I think Gary did his best job coaching since he's been here last yr. BTW

That's all well and good and great for you for having such high standards. But you need to use a word other than "mediocre" because that word does not mean what you're wanting to communicate. According to your definition, the Patriots are a mediocre team as were the Colts during the Manning-era.

Are we where we want to be? No. But as hard as it is for you to get your head around, we're a winning team now. We're not mediocre by any stretch of the definition.

The Pencil Neck
06-02-2013, 02:30 PM
I never did get an answer on how long Rick/Gary get before they lose there jobs? I will answer my own question, a long time, because BoB doesn't like traumatic things like change.

Welcome to the Pittsburgh model of Football Front Officery. How long did Cowher get?

As long as the Texans are a successful team, Rick and Gary should keep their jobs and under this ownership, WILL keep their jobs. I know that you just want them fired no matter what the results are but it's not going to happen.

If Rick and Gary win a SB, you're still going to be griping and saying they should be fired because they didn't win more of them.

thunderkyss
06-02-2013, 03:06 PM
If Rick and Gary win a SB, you're still going to be griping and saying they should be fired because they didn't win more of them.

Or that we didn't win by 20

Or that we got a lucky break on a bad call

Or that we've only won it once in 12 years

Or some other nonsense.

ObsiWan
06-02-2013, 03:23 PM
I thought this was a thread discussing whether Yates or Keenum should be #2 on the depth chart...

Where did we go off the rails?
How did this devolve into a fire Kubiak thread??
Who's responsible for this?
:toropalm:

Rey
06-02-2013, 05:26 PM
I understand. I just disagree.

What part of "doesn't matter" don't YOU understand?

I understand. Just had nothing to do with the post I quoted. Seems like your comprehension is poor.

Feeling additional pressure has nothing is not the opposite of not feeling any at all.

steelbtexan
06-02-2013, 11:13 PM
It isn't a McNair thing. It is rare as hell to see a coach and GM fired when they are going 12-4 and winning the division.

Says Schottenheimer/Jimmy Johnson/Shula (2 yrs after going 13-1,) Todd Haley and Lovie Smith fired this yr after winning 10 games. Firing successful HC's being fired isn't as uncommon as you might think. It is around Texans land though.

BTW, I was against firing Gary this offseason. I actually think he did a masterful job coacing a team with a hurt QB/WR and had depth issues to a 12-4 record.

steelbtexan
06-02-2013, 11:22 PM
Welcome to the Pittsburgh model of Football Front Officery. How long did Cowher get?

As long as the Texans are a successful team, Rick and Gary should keep their jobs and under this ownership, WILL keep their jobs. I know that you just want them fired no matter what the results are but it's not going to happen.

If Rick and Gary win a SB, you're still going to be griping and saying they should be fired because they didn't win more of them.

Correct under BoB as long as they win a little and fans keep comming they keep their jobs. (Got it)

Pretty presumptious of you to know how I will feel after the Texans win a SB. Hope we have a chance to have that discussion at a later date. You are wrong however if you think I want Rick/Gary fired no matter what. Winning a SB seems to be a lower priority for some than others.

infantrycak
06-02-2013, 11:36 PM
Says Schottenheimer/Jimmy Johnson/Shula (2 yrs after going 13-1,) Todd Haley and Lovie Smith fired this yr after winning 10 games. Firing successful HC's being fired isn't as uncommon as you might think. It is around Texans land though.

BTW, I was against firing Gary this offseason. I actually think he did a masterful job coacing a team with a hurt QB/WR and had depth issues to a 12-4 record.

Dude, weak attempt. It is very uncommon, exceptionally uncommon and then if you want to top that off show where the results got better?

Shottenheimer - now he was legitimately fired but the team benefited how? Playoff team went a few more times and then tumbled and fired the new coach.

Jimmy Johnson - please for even including this one. JJ did not get fired. Basically the Cowboys floundered since the team JJ built.

Shula - not fired - retired.

Haley - fired mid-season the next year after a WC appearance.

Lovie - hasn't made the playoffs in three years.

The only one that came close to answering my question was Shottenheimer. This shows how biased you are in your analysis. I mean seriously, you typed in Jimmy Johnson and didn't Homer Simpson yourself?

leebigeztx
06-03-2013, 12:43 AM
I've watched keenum throw a bunch of passes and the dude throws darts. Especially on those short passes.

Same kind of qb in terms of threatning the field as schaub. He cant throw outside with velocity. U can pull up any film and u cant find a deep comeback.

thunderkyss
06-03-2013, 09:20 AM
Same kind of qb in terms of threatning the field as schaub. He cant throw outside with velocity. U can pull up any film and u cant find a deep comeback.

jmo..... but Schaub's biggest weakness is that the play is over once protection breaks down. Fortunately for us, he's pretty good at getting rid of the ball before that happens.

There are better QBs out there at making something happen when it all goes to sht, but they're not as good before that point.

Replacing Schaub, we may very well get someone who is better when a play breaks down. I believe that's what Yates gives us & some are saying Keenum as well. Surely, Keenum can't be worse.

But there is going to be a drop off on working our offense before a play breaks down, there's no way around that. Schaub is that good, at that point. Not many better.

We've seen Yates & I agree with those who believe the drop off will be severe. From what I've seen of Case & the general expectations of him on this board, I believe the general consensus is that drop off will not be so severe (as opposed to Yates).

So not being able to throw a deep come-back won't really hurt us so much, if he can manage the offense similar to Schaub & give us some of that play-making ability.

Honoring Earl 34
06-03-2013, 09:48 AM
Dude, weak attempt. It is very uncommon, exceptionally uncommon and then if you want to top that off show where the results got better?

Shottenheimer - now he was legitimately fired but the team benefited how? Playoff team went a few more times and then tumbled and fired the new coach.

Jimmy Johnson - please for even including this one. JJ did not get fired. Basically the Cowboys floundered since the team JJ built.

Shula - not fired - retired.

Haley - fired mid-season the next year after a WC appearance.

Lovie - hasn't made the playoffs in three years.

The only one that came close to answering my question was Shottenheimer. This shows how biased you are in your analysis. I mean seriously, you typed in Jimmy Johnson and didn't Homer Simpson yourself?

If the team has 8 talent and they play as a 5 , the coach is on the hotseat . If the team has 5 talent and they play as an 8 , extend his contract .

JJ had 9 talent and won the SB . Jerrah and Jack ( Daniels ) undermined Jimmy .

cuppacoffee
06-03-2013, 09:50 AM
I thought this was a thread discussing whether Yates or Keenum should be #2 on the depth chart...

Where did we go off the rails?
How did this devolve into a fire Kubiak thread??
Who's responsible for this?
:toropalm:


I think Bush did it.

Let me check with axeman and get back to you.

:coffee:

Honoring Earl 34
06-03-2013, 09:52 AM
I think Bush did it.

Let me check with axeman and get back to you.

:coffee:

Booo ... not in the Texans chat . :turtle:

thunderkyss
06-03-2013, 11:25 AM
If the team has 8 talent and they play as a 5 , the coach is on the hotseat . If the team has 5 talent and they play as an 8 , extend his contract .

JJ had 9 talent and won the SB . Jerrah and Jack ( Daniels ) undermined Jimmy .

So what are you saying? That Jerrah fired JJ after winning the SuperBowl ?

Or do you agree with 'cak that JJ wasn't fired, but elected to retire?

The premise that 'cak is arguing is that it is common for 12 win coaches to get fired. JJ is a bad example of that, since he didn't get fired & his GM was not dissatisfied with the level of play from the team; i.e. the coaches job performance.

Honoring Earl 34
06-03-2013, 11:42 AM
So what are you saying? That Jerrah fired JJ after winning the SuperBowl ?

Or do you agree with 'cak that JJ wasn't fired, but elected to retire?

The premise that 'cak is arguing is that it is common for 12 win coaches to get fired. JJ is a bad example of that, since he didn't get fired & his GM was not dissatisfied with the level of play from the team; i.e. the coaches job performance.

Jerrah said that JJ got to much credit and Barry Switzer could do the same thing . Jerrah was jealous of JJ .

A 12 win team who is stacked , is under performing and can get fired if they are a bust in the playoffs . It's all about the owners expectations or lack of .

Why did Bum get fired ?

thunderkyss
06-03-2013, 11:53 AM
Jerrah said that JJ got to much credit and Barry Switzer could do the same thing . Jerrah was jealous of JJ .


Moot point..... doesn't matter. Jerry Jones did not fire Jimmy Johnson.


A 12 win team who is stacked , is under performing and can get fired if they are a bust in the playoffs . It's all about the owners expectations or lack of .

Why did Bum get fired ?

So you're saying there are a plethora of coaches out there who were fired after a 12 win season?

The Pencil Neck
06-03-2013, 11:56 AM
Why did Bum get fired ?

Because the owner was a stupid fool.

Honoring Earl 34
06-03-2013, 11:57 AM
Moot point..... doesn't matter. Jerry Jones did not fire Jimmy Johnson.



So you're saying there are a plethora of coaches out there who were fired after a 12 win season?

Nope ... if I'm the owner and think we have gone as far as my present coach can take me , I'm making changes . Sometimes there's a fine line between smart and stupid and it all depends on the results .

Honoring Earl 34
06-03-2013, 11:59 AM
Because the owner was a stupid fool.

He also had Lad undermining Bum because he wanted to be the GM . Moon Herzeg said Ed Biles could do better than Bum for less money .

infantrycak
06-03-2013, 12:00 PM
Sometimes there's a fine line between smart and stupid and it all depends on the results .

OK, where are the examples of it being smart based on the results?

CloakNNNdagger
06-03-2013, 12:07 PM
The stories I have heard also lend themselves to JJ retiring. If I worked for Jerruh, I would also take retiring over the alternative...............i.e., shooting myself.

Honoring Earl 34
06-03-2013, 12:08 PM
OK, where are the examples of it being smart based on the results?

Off the top of my head , I don't think it's worked out in the NFL . I think the psyche of a football team is so different and each coach needs his own players . Parcells takes over a team and starts bringing in his guys who buy into his system .

I cheated some , Tampa Bay fired Tony Dungy because of playoff failures ( 9-7 ) and win the SB the next year .

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/132195

leebigeztx
06-03-2013, 01:53 PM
jmo..... but Schaub's biggest weakness is that the play is over once protection breaks down. Fortunately for us, he's pretty good at getting rid of the ball before that happens.

There are better QBs out there at making something happen when it all goes to sht, but they're not as good before that point.

Replacing Schaub, we may very well get someone who is better when a play breaks down. I believe that's what Yates gives us & some are saying Keenum as well. Surely, Keenum can't be worse.

But there is going to be a drop off on working our offense before a play breaks down, there's no way around that. Schaub is that good, at that point. Not many better.

We've seen Yates & I agree with those who believe the drop off will be severe. From what I've seen of Case & the general expectations of him on this board, I believe the general consensus is that drop off will not be so severe (as opposed to Yates).

So not being able to throw a deep come-back won't really hurt us so much, if he can manage the offense similar to Schaub & give us some of that play-making ability.

I agree to a certain. I agree tj probably have the best feet and arm and I think minus experiende, he is pretty good upgrade to schaub. I do think not being to throw deep comebacks, digs, and outs restrict the offense. I mean, brady cants throws same routes either, but they score a lot points except in the post season.

thunderkyss
06-03-2013, 02:18 PM
I do think not being to throw deep comebacks, digs, and outs restrict the offense.

I meant more that it wouldn't restrict us anymore than it already does. As you said, Case's arm & Schaub's arm.... not a lot of difference.

Still, we manage to score a lot of points, even last year when we weren't playing our best offensively. I expect that to continue, especially when we get that right side of the line figured out.

Heck, if Case can get around on those bootlegs faster than the old man, we might score more points there as well.

Honoring Earl 34
06-03-2013, 02:26 PM
I meant more that it wouldn't restrict us anymore than it already does. As you said, Case's arm & Schaub's arm.... not a lot of difference.

Still, we manage to score a lot of points, even last year when we weren't playing our best offensively. I expect that to continue, especially when we get that right side of the line figured out.

Heck, if Case can get around on those bootlegs faster than the old man, we might score more points there as well.

A defense may have to actually respect a run from a bootleg .

Rey
06-04-2013, 02:00 PM
[
@HoustonTexans OTAs: Team did more redzone work. Kubiak noted he liked to give different young guys opps w/1s, like Case Keenum today.
[/COLOR]

When you get a chance to run with the 1's you have a legit shot at climbing up the depth chart/making the team.

I think this year we are going to keep 3 QB's. If one of them has to play I expect Yates to get first dibs unless Keenum just wow's in pre-season. I think Kubiak really likes Keenum though.

eriadoc
06-04-2013, 02:34 PM
Heck, if Case can get around on those bootlegs faster than the old man, we might score more points there as well.

A defense may have to actually respect a run from a bootleg .

Normal zone bootleg:

http://www.prodctr.com/lsimmons/pics/bootleg1.jpg

Schaub's bootleg:

http://www.prodctr.com/lsimmons/pics/bootleg2.jpg

Rey
06-04-2013, 02:37 PM
Normal zone bootleg:

http://www.prodctr.com/lsimmons/pics/bootleg1.jpg

Schaub's bootleg:

http://www.prodctr.com/lsimmons/pics/bootleg2.jpg

LOL...It's funny because that is what Schaub's bootlegs look like as opposed to what you'd ideally want...

Brisco_County
06-14-2013, 07:21 PM
I just heard on Texans Huddle that Yates had elbow tendonitis throughout the entire season in 2012. Is this common knowledge? It's the first I had heard of it.

If that's the case, I expect a better performance from him this preseason (though I still think Keenum will win the backup spot).

CloakNNNdagger
06-14-2013, 07:56 PM
I just heard on Texans Huddle that Yates had elbow tendonitis throughout the entire season in 2012. Is this common knowledge? It's the first I had heard of it.

If that's the case, I expect a better performance from him this preseason (though I still think Keenum will win the backup spot).

He was on the Injury Reports for a "right elbow" from the 9th week to the end of the season.

AngryNateFTW
06-14-2013, 08:34 PM
Why is Yates getting time off during the mini-camp?

HE'S 2ND STRING! He's not a veteran (3rd year), he's not the starter. He should want every single rep he can get.

This only shows (to me) that Kubiak wants Keenum to end up being our #2 QB. Yates shouldn't be taking the day off he should be trying to get better. Get in sync with his new WR's and even help the timing with his current WR's.

Yates sitting out of mini-camp means that he really is fine being our #2 and never trying to start or he has some sort of injury that we don't know about.

I don't believe that Keenum is better than Yates but it makes no sense to have him taking time off. He should be trying to push Schaub.

CloakNNNdagger
06-14-2013, 09:50 PM
Why is Yates getting time off during the mini-camp?

HE'S 2ND STRING! He's not a veteran (3rd year), he's not the starter. He should want every single rep he can get.

This only shows (to me) that Kubiak wants Keenum to end up being our #2 QB. Yates shouldn't be taking the day off he should be trying to get better. Get in sync with his new WR's and even help the timing with his current WR's.

Yates sitting out of mini-camp means that he really is fine being our #2 and never trying to start or he has some sort of injury that we don't know about.

I don't believe that Keenum is better than Yates but it makes no sense to have him taking time off. He should be trying to push Schaub.

FWIW,

Curiously, the NEW CBA (“Veteran” means a player who has signed at least one Player Contract with an NFL Club.) under Article I Definitions:

“Rookie” means a person who has never before signed a Player Contract with an NFL Club. The first Player Contract signed by such person is a “Rookie Contract.”

“Veteran” means a player who has signed at least one Player Contract with an NFL Club.

CloakNNNdagger
06-15-2013, 10:46 AM
Why is Yates getting time off during the mini-camp?

HE'S 2ND STRING! He's not a veteran (3rd year), he's not the starter. He should want every single rep he can get.

This only shows (to me) that Kubiak wants Keenum to end up being our #2 QB. Yates shouldn't be taking the day off he should be trying to get better. Get in sync with his new WR's and even help the timing with his current WR's.

Yates sitting out of mini-camp means that he really is fine being our #2 and never trying to start or he has some sort of injury that we don't know about.

I don't believe that Keenum is better than Yates but it makes no sense to have him taking time off. He should be trying to push Schaub.

It's interesting to note that McClain yesterday commented that maybe Keenum doesn't make back up QB this year, but he gets the strong feeling from the Texans that they see Keenum, not Yates, as Schaub's eventual successor.

The Pencil Neck
06-15-2013, 12:45 PM
It's interesting to note that McClain yesterday commented that maybe Keenum doesn't make back up QB this year, but he gets the strong feeling from the Texans that they see Keenum, not Yates, as Schaub's eventual successor.

Kubiak has a history of taking UDFAs and letting them develop into weapons.

Obviously, there's Arian but there's also Rod Smith. Maybe it's time he does the same thing for a QB. :thinking:

I'm not a Keenum-fan like 76Texan and I'm not expecting this outcome but I wouldn't mind if we get a surprise upgrade at QB.

eriadoc
06-15-2013, 06:05 PM
Kubiak has a history of taking UDFAs and letting them develop into weapons.

Obviously, there's Arian but there's also Rod Smith. Maybe it's time he does the same thing for a QB. :thinking:

I'm not a Keenum-fan like 76Texan and I'm not expecting this outcome but I wouldn't mind if we get a surprise upgrade at QB.

UDFA status aside, every QB that's played under Kubiak has had their best years under Kubiak. Something to be said for that.

CloakNNNdagger
06-15-2013, 07:18 PM
UDFA status aside, every QB that's played under Kubiak has had their best years under Kubiak. Something to be said for that.

In part because he chooses and grooms his QBs FOR his system, which in turn is a QB-friendly which can turn a good QB into a very good QB.........and, hopefully, someday can turn a very good QB into an elite QB.

PapaL
06-15-2013, 07:20 PM
Matt Leinhert was a beast at handoffs in that one half he played.

amazing80
06-15-2013, 07:26 PM
Im still a big time Yates fan. He is underrated around these parts IMO.

Brisco_County
06-15-2013, 07:28 PM
Matt Leinhert was a beast at handoffs in that one half he played.

He also threw is decent TD pass in that half.

TheEastwood
06-15-2013, 07:55 PM
UDFA status aside, every QB that's played under Kubiak has had their best years under Kubiak. Something to be said for that.

Signed Rex Grossman

PapaL
06-15-2013, 08:40 PM
He also threw is decent TD pass in that half.

Touche :fight:

ChampionTexan
06-15-2013, 10:46 PM
UDFA status aside, every QB that's played under Kubiak has had their best years under Kubiak. Something to be said for that.

Matt Leinhert was a beast at handoffs in that one half he played.

He also threw is decent TD pass in that half.

Not to mention that in the 28+ minutes that Leinart actually played for Kubiak, his passer rating was 110.1, his completion percentage was 76.9, and his TD to interception ratio was not even capable of being defined. :kitten:

badboy
06-16-2013, 12:09 AM
It's interesting to note that McClain yesterday commented that maybe Keenum doesn't make back up QB this year, but he gets the strong feeling from the Texans that they see Keenum, not Yates, as Schaub's eventual successor.When I mentioned in a much earlier post that I could see Schaub leaving after 2014 and Yates being traded within next two seasons, I was considered a nut. In that post I mentioned Keenum training behind Matt for next two seasons and Texans drafting a QB 2014, IIRC. Keenum as back up & getting a draft pick for Yates would be awesome then eliminating Schaub's contract would be awesome. Even better if we could get a pick or two for MS.

The Pencil Neck
06-16-2013, 01:02 AM
When I mentioned in a much earlier post that I could see Schaub leaving after 2014 and Yates being traded within next two seasons, I was considered a nut. In that post I mentioned Keenum training behind Matt for next two seasons and Texans drafting a QB 2014, IIRC. Keenum as back up & getting a draft pick for Yates would be awesome then eliminating Schaub's contract would be awesome. Even better if we could get a pick or two for MS.

I don't EXPECT it to happen. I'm pretty sure it won't... but that doesn't mean I don't think it would be awesome if it did.

Thorn
06-16-2013, 07:30 AM
I don't EXPECT it to happen. I'm pretty sure it won't... but that doesn't mean I don't think it would be awesome if it did.

That's how I feel about Keenum. I'll believe it when I see it, but I do want to see it and will keep cheering for him as long as he's on the team.

DocBar
06-16-2013, 08:43 PM
IMHO, Keenum has loads more talent than Yates, he just lacks the "tangible" of size. If Keenum was 6'3"+, we wouldn't be having this conversation. He would've gone in the top 3 rounds of his draft class. The ONLY question on Keenum would be the offense he used in college.

I think the "intangibles" of leadership abilities and overcoming the "tangible" of size works in Keenum's favor. I can see him as Schaub's successor more so than Yates.

badboy
06-17-2013, 12:07 PM
IMHO, Keenum has loads more talent than Yates, he just lacks the "tangible" of size. If Keenum was 6'3"+, we wouldn't be having this conversation. He would've gone in the top 3 rounds of his draft class. The ONLY question on Keenum would be the offense he used in college.

I think the "intangibles" of leadership abilities and overcoming the "tangible" of size works in Keenum's favor. I can see him as Schaub's successor more so than Yates.There were tall defensive opponents for Keenum in college and he was outstanding. Sure NFL defenses will be better but so will Texans offense. Case did not have an Andre to throw to or OD. Nor did he have a Foster to hand off to or Duane Brown blocking. IMO, Case look at this offense and grins. I think as far as leadership, Keenum will bring it all and I will compare him to a Peyton Manning as a field general compared year to year based on experience. It may be crystal ball but two more seasons behind Matt should really season him.

thunderkyss
06-17-2013, 12:35 PM
It may be crystal ball but two more seasons behind Matt should really season him.

If he's not going to be ready for the next two years, he's not the guy.

Now if he's ready this year, just waiting for an opportunity... I can buy that.

There will most likely be an opportunity in 2013 for someone to step up & replace Matt.

badboy
06-17-2013, 01:17 PM
If he's not going to be ready for the next two years, he's not the guy.

Now if he's ready this year, just waiting for an opportunity... I can buy that.

There will most likely be an opportunity in 2013 for someone to step up & replace Matt.TK, I enjoy reading your posts but what are you talking about? Keenum has one year on practice squad. Don't you agree most QBs need 1-2 years of significant playing time before starting? Two more seasons behind Matt should be perfect.

Edit: no one will have opportunity to replace Schaub barring injury.

2012Champs
06-17-2013, 02:04 PM
Im still a big time Yates fan. He is underrated around these parts IMO.


he isnt underrated at all lets not go overboard here

infantrycak
06-17-2013, 02:22 PM
TK, I enjoy reading your posts but what are you talking about? Keenum has one year on practice squad. Don't you agree most QBs need 1-2 years of significant playing time before starting? Two more seasons behind Matt should be perfect.

Not sure how you consider being behind Schaub to be significant playing time. But to answer your question waiting 2-3 years on a QB is a rarity now.

eriadoc
06-17-2013, 02:27 PM
But to answer your question waiting 2-3 years on a QB is a rarity now.

And the game has suffered for it, IMO.

infantrycak
06-17-2013, 02:37 PM
And the game has suffered for it, IMO.

When were these halcyon days of QB's sitting around for years? I don't recall Bradshaw, Elway, Montana, Manning, Marino, Kelly sitting around for years watching.

I'll spot you Staubach but that was a rather unique situation all around.

Rey
06-17-2013, 03:57 PM
LOL...Cak, you are the one that said it's a rarity now....

Saying it's a rarity now indicates that you didn't think it used to be.

thunderkyss
06-17-2013, 04:30 PM
TK, I enjoy reading your posts but what are you talking about? Keenum has one year on practice squad. Don't you agree most QBs need 1-2 years of significant playing time before starting? Two more seasons behind Matt should be perfect.

Edit: no one will have opportunity to replace Schaub barring injury.

1-2 years... yeah. 3 years..... no.

Aaron Rodgers sat on the bench for 3 years & I'm sure he's better for it. But I think he was probably ready at the end of year 1, just didn't have an opportunity.

If Keenum isn't ready at the end of this season, I don't think he will be. That's all I'm saying. If he doesn't get on the field before the 2015 season because Matt's the starter & continues to be healthy through the end of the 2014 season, so be it. That's a different story.

Matt played 18 games last season (not counting preseason), the chances of him doing that in 2013... slim. Someone is going to get on that field in his place, if it's Yates, he's been here long enough, we should be able to tell if he's ready to start in the NFL or not.

If Keenum Leap frogs Yates & he gets that opportunity... that's Kubiak saying Keenum is ready. If he falls on his face, he falls on his face.

Time to move on.

DocBar
06-17-2013, 06:24 PM
1-2 years... yeah. 3 years..... no.

Aaron Rodgers sat on the bench for 3 years & I'm sure he's better for it. But I think he was probably ready at the end of year 1, just didn't have an opportunity.

If Keenum isn't ready at the end of this season, I don't think he will be. That's all I'm saying. If he doesn't get on the field before the 2015 season because Matt's the starter & continues to be healthy through the end of the 2014 season, so be it. That's a different story.

Matt played 18 games last season (not counting preseason), the chances of him doing that in 2013... slim. Someone is going to get on that field in his place, if it's Yates, he's been here long enough, we should be able to tell if he's ready to start in the NFL or not.

If Keenum Leap frogs Yates & he gets that opportunity... that's Kubiak saying Keenum is ready. If he falls on his face, he falls on his face.

Time to move on.I'll go on record as saying that Keenum will be the starter by 2015 if Schaub doesn't take us to the Super Bowl by then.

If this were another team, I could see Yates getting traded by then but the Texans don't believe in that. They'd rather cut players and eat dead money or just let a player walk.

eriadoc
06-17-2013, 06:39 PM
LOL...Cak, you are the one that said it's a rarity now....

Saying it's a rarity now indicates that you didn't think it used to be.

QFT, but I'll play anyway.

First rounders have never sat. Oh, I'm sure someone will come up with an example, so whatever, but the trend has not been for first rounders to sit and develop. But teams used to have guys sitting that they'd develop behind the starter. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't, but there used to be a higher percentage of QBs drafted in later rounds that sat and developed for a couple years. They'd get some mop-up time or maybe start a few games if the starter went down, and then later in their career, they'd turn into decent starters, sometimes very good. Even the guys that started early often saw limited spot duty in their rookie year.

Circumstances vary, but I can think of Steve Young, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, Stan Humphries, Elvis Grbac, and Lynn Dickey. I'm sure if I looked far enough into it, I could come up with some more. A few of these guys were drafted really late, but some were drafted in the 3rd-ish rounds. Coaches worked with them in the hopes that they'd develop and some of them did. Now teams spend a ton on their starter and don't bother too much to develop a later round guy. It happens, but it's not as common as it used to be.

Maybe it wasn't exactly common back then, but as the game has increasingly put skirts on the QBs and the paychecks have risen at the position, teams put a much lower emphasis on ensuring there's a real viable option at backup. The Colts are the extreme example - hell, they had exactly no one behind Peyton Manning for years.

DocBar
06-17-2013, 08:04 PM
QFT, but I'll play anyway.

First rounders have never sat. Oh, I'm sure someone will come up with an example, so whatever, but the trend has not been for first rounders to sit and develop. But teams used to have guys sitting that they'd develop behind the starter. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't, but there used to be a higher percentage of QBs drafted in later rounds that sat and developed for a couple years. They'd get some mop-up time or maybe start a few games if the starter went down, and then later in their career, they'd turn into decent starters, sometimes very good. Even the guys that started early often saw limited spot duty in their rookie year.

Circumstances vary, but I can think of Steve Young, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, Stan Humphries, Elvis Grbac, and Lynn Dickey. I'm sure if I looked far enough into it, I could come up with some more. A few of these guys were drafted really late, but some were drafted in the 3rd-ish rounds. Coaches worked with them in the hopes that they'd develop and some of them did. Now teams spend a ton on their starter and don't bother too much to develop a later round guy. It happens, but it's not as common as it used to be.

Maybe it wasn't exactly common back then, but as the game has increasingly put skirts on the QBs and the paychecks have risen at the position, teams put a much lower emphasis on ensuring there's a real viable option at backup. The Colts are the extreme example - hell, they had exactly no one behind Peyton Manning for years.Steve Young was drafted in the 1st round by Tampa Bay. Aaron Rodgers was drafted in the 1st round. Warren Moon wasn't drafted at all. Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round. Case Keenum wasn't drafted (I keed, I keed!!!). Joe Montana was drafted in the 3rd round.

There doesn't seem to be a tried and true method of drafting a QB. For every Peyton Manning out there, there are 3 Leif Garret's or Jamarcus Russell's. Some QB's learn under fire better than others, some need the time to sit and learn how to be a pro. Our very own David Carr could well be a prime example of that. Who knows what could've come of his career if he'd been allowed to watch a seasoned vet go out and get slobberknockered behind a horrible OL for a couple of years?

IMHO, I'd rather see a draft pick, regardless of draft position sit for at least a year and learn how to prepare like a pro. Just MHO.

thunderkyss
06-17-2013, 09:07 PM
Just to continue this exercise in futility.

Joe Flacco
Colin Kaepernick
Matt Ryan
Tom Brady
Matt Schaub
Russell Wilson
Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning
Andy Dalton
Andrew Luck
Christian Ponder
Robert Griffen III

Where were these guys drafted & when did they start (year 1, 2, 3, or 4)

DocBar
06-17-2013, 09:22 PM
Just to continue this exercise in futility.

Joe Flacco
Colin Kaepernick
Matt Ryan
Tom Brady
Matt Schaub
Russell Wilson
Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning
Andy Dalton
Russell Wilson
Andrew Luck
Jake Locker

Where were these guys drafted & when did they start (year 1, 2, 3, or 4)Kind of a silly way to play the game. The vast majority are young and drafted in the top 3 rounds of their drafts. Right where eventual starters are expected to be drafted.

The biggest surprise in those names is Wilson. Nobody expected Wilson to be the starter in Seattle last season.

Texan_Bill
06-17-2013, 09:38 PM
Matt Leinhert was a beast at handoffs in that one half he played.

:spit:

STOP IT!! Just STOP IT!!!!

***********

While funny I've heard that Keenum has been killing it!

thunderkyss
06-17-2013, 10:02 PM
Kind of a silly way to play the game.

Those are the 2012 Play off QBs, that's the only reason I picked them. I think Rogers is the only one who sat for more than 2 years. But I wasn't sure, which is another reason I posed the question.

DocBar
06-17-2013, 10:08 PM
Those are the 2012 Play off QBs, that's the only reason I picked them. I think Rogers is the only one who sat for more than 2 years. But I wasn't sure, which is another reason I posed the question.3 out of the bunch were rookies. How does that play out? Has to be fairly high, depending on games started as a rookie.

thunderkyss
06-17-2013, 10:27 PM
3 out of the bunch were rookies. How does that play out? Has to be fairly high, depending on games started as a rookie.

You're right...... somehow I missed RG3

I also screwed up & had Locker in there instead of Ponder & I counted Russell Wilson twice.

DocBar
06-17-2013, 10:31 PM
You're right...... somehow I missed RG3

LOL

Rey
10-18-2013, 08:49 AM
well, yeah, there really is not much to talk about, so I kinda give this a pass. the only thing i find funny is the people using some form of replacemnt or future starter when talking about either of them.

Well....here we are....

Thorn
10-18-2013, 08:59 AM
Well....here we are....

Yes, for better or worse, here we are.

Carr Bombed
10-18-2013, 09:01 AM
This just proves what I thought all along, "in a tie, the tiebreaker went to the incumbent". T.J. didn't really outright win the #2 spot and Case never lost it either.

I always felt the spot should've went to Case from the get go though, because if a third year player who's been playing in the same system for 7 years is already being pushed by a 2nd year UDFA who's learning the new system, go with the guy who's making exponential improvement.

Rey
10-18-2013, 09:03 AM
Yes, for better or worse, here we are.

I think either way it's for the better. It'll either be better this year or better in the future. Even if case flops, I think we'd be looking at qb early in the draft.

kingtexan
10-18-2013, 09:03 AM
Why bring back these old ass posts?

"I see dumb people" ...

Rey
10-18-2013, 09:05 AM
This just proves what I thought all along, "in a tie, the tiebreaker went to the incumbent". T.J. didn't really outright win the #2 spot and Case never lost it either.

I always felt the spot should've went to Case from the get go though, because if a third year player who's been playing in the same system for 7 years is already being pushed by a 2nd year UDFA who's learning the new system, go with the guy who's making exponential improvement.

I kind of felt the same way about the outcome, but I didn't have a problem with Yates being 2. Really there was no need to keep a young third qb if they didn't like him...so I figured he'd get a shot at some point.

Rey
10-18-2013, 09:07 AM
Why bring back these old ass posts?

"I see dumb people" ...

Everyone is wrong or misinformed about something at some point(s).

I like these old threads because it's like a time capsule. They are interesting to read through and see what people thought at the time.

Carr Bombed
10-18-2013, 09:09 AM
Why bring back these old ass posts?

"I see dumb people" ...

Why bother posting in a thread you obviosly don't care for? Nobody twisted your arm.

"I see angry people"

BullNation4Life
10-18-2013, 09:20 AM
I always thought the only reason Yates was the #2 over Keenum was because Yates was further along in the playbook being he has ran this system in college and 2 1/2 years with Kubiak. Keenum has only been in this system for a year and a half where Yates has been in this system for like 5 years now.

I never thought it had to do with talent, just knowledge of the playbook

thunderkyss
10-18-2013, 09:27 AM
I always felt the spot should've went to Case from the get go though, because if a third year player who's been playing in the same system for 7 years is already being pushed by a 2nd year UDFA who's learning the new system, go with the guy who's making exponential improvement.

I always thought Kubiak was putting together his Super Bowl or bust plan. We were going to have three QBs on this roster, just in case. Tj was going to get the #2 spot regardless, because Kubiak doesn't want to go into the play offs a third year in a row with a QB playing his first ever play off game.

But dropping 4 in a row, he doesn't have the luxury to think about that right now. He's still holding on to Schaub getting healthy (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/10/case-keenum-to-start-sunday-against-chiefs/) & making a come back:

“Matt’s got a ways to go,” Kubiak said. “We’ve got an extra week to get him healthy and hopefully we can get him good and healthy and coming back here in a few weeks.”

If this team looks like the team we thought they were come Sunday, we're going to find out whether we're right or wrong about Gary Kubiak. There's a good chance he'll think the team will play the same way if he sticks Schaub back in there.

kingtexan
10-18-2013, 10:04 AM
Why bother posting in a thread you obviosly don't care for? Nobody twisted your arm.

"I see angry people"

Angry? :thinking: very well then ...

2012Champs
10-18-2013, 04:16 PM
I always thought the only reason Yates was the #2 over Keenum was because Yates was further along in the playbook being he has ran this system in college and 2 1/2 years with Kubiak. Keenum has only been in this system for a year and a half where Yates has been in this system for like 5 years now.

I never thought it had to do with talent, just knowledge of the playbook



I think Yates was still ahead(Clearly he went in for Matt) but throwing two ints Gary just said f it put Case in there the worst thing he can do is throw picks

Lord Bills
10-18-2013, 06:05 PM
This just proves what I thought all along, "in a tie, the tiebreaker went to the incumbent". T.J. didn't really outright win the #2 spot and Case never lost it either.

I always felt the spot should've went to Case from the get go though, because if a third year player who's been playing in the same system for 7 years is already being pushed by a 2nd year UDFA who's learning the new system, go with the guy who's making exponential improvement.

i absolutely agree. Keenum moved the offense a lot smoother than Yates did.

That alone should have told them that Keenum's upside is much greater than yates. Looking back on it, we should have traded Yates right before the season started. We could have pried away a draft pick from another team desperate for competent QB play. Not anymore. I dont think we can get any picks for yates or schaub.

Lucky
10-19-2013, 04:46 PM
Even diehard Coog fans are split on Keenum's NFL impact. There will be no local groundswell to replace Schaub as the starter. Unless Schaub is playing very poorly. This is not analogous to VY coming out of UT.
I did say "Unless...". I think Keenum's preseason performance also has to factor in the current support. He looked like a NFL QB. I think that changed a lot of opinions on Case.

Corrosion
10-19-2013, 05:19 PM
I did say "Unless...". I think Keenum's preseason performance also has to factor in the current support. He looked like a NFL QB. I think that changed a lot of opinions on Case.

I saw some things from Keenum during the preseason that .... after watching again , I have serious concerns about going into KC.
Mainly throwing deep out routes and the zip on the ball being just a bit lacking - granted on those two or three throws in question he was either moving or had significant pressure in his face and unable to step into the throws.

If KC is able to pressure him on those routes ... the results could look a lot like that noodle armed statue we at one time called a QB.

CloakNNNdagger
10-19-2013, 06:02 PM
I saw some things from Keenum during the preseason that .... after watching again , I have serious concerns about going into KC.
Mainly throwing deep out routes and the zip on the ball being just a bit lacking - granted on those two or three throws in question he was either moving or had significant pressure in his face and unable to step into the throws.

If KC is able to pressure him on those routes ... the results could look a lot like that noodle armed statue we at one time called a QB.

I doubt that we see "noodle arm," as those 3 throws were against the sideline with the ball put exactly where the D couldn't get to them.........and where the receivers were hit in stride. Any more zip on the ball and the receivers would have been led out of bounds over the sideline. With Case's mobility, though, expect our OL and D not to be totally worn out to the point that they again demonstrate "noodle legs." :texflag:

leebigeztx
10-19-2013, 08:18 PM
I saw some things from Keenum during the preseason that .... after watching again , I have serious concerns about going into KC.
Mainly throwing deep out routes and the zip on the ball being just a bit lacking - granted on those two or three throws in question he was either moving or had significant pressure in his face and unable to step into the throws.

If KC is able to pressure him on those routes ... the results could look a lot like that noodle armed statue we at one time called a QB.

Which is what I've been saying from my days at camp watching all 3 throwing side by side. When a qb can't pose a threat on certain routes,that's plays you can't run. A guy like case will be limited to hash mark throws and a few shot plays. That's not the worse thing,but it limits rt running and everything.

hradhak
10-19-2013, 09:44 PM
I saw some things from Keenum during the preseason that .... after watching again , I have serious concerns about going into KC.
Mainly throwing deep out routes and the zip on the ball being just a bit lacking - granted on those two or three throws in question he was either moving or had significant pressure in his face and unable to step into the throws.

If KC is able to pressure him on those routes ... the results could look a lot like that noodle armed statue we at one time called a QB.

I havent't seen all of Keenum's early stuff at UH, but his last season at UH he made some fairly amazing throws. His biggest strength I saw was that he put the ball in places that no one could get to other than his receiver.

Keenum has a lot to prove, but I think he has enough tools and versatility that he can be a good QB in the league. The real question will be how his decision making is when the spotlight is on him.

CloakNNNdagger
10-19-2013, 09:46 PM
Which is what I've been saying from my days at camp watching all 3 throwing side by side. When a qb can't pose a threat on certain routes,that's plays you can't run. A guy like case will be limited to hash mark throws and a few shot plays. That's not the worse thing,but it limits rt running and everything.

If the Chiefs see it the same way you do, they will be stacking the box to take away the run...........I predict that short, weak-armed, inexperienced QB will burn the crap out of the D.

Mr teX
10-19-2013, 09:49 PM
I havent't seen all of Keenum's early stuff at UH, but his last season at UH he made some fairly amazing throws. His biggest strength I saw was that he put the ball in places that no one could get to other than his receiver.

Keenum has a lot to prove, but I think he has enough tools and versatility that he can be a good QB in the league. The real question will be how his decision making is when the spotlight is on him.

When they come after him...