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View Full Version : Schaub is the Rodney Dangerfield Of QBs He Gets No Respect!


False Start
05-15-2013, 11:55 PM
Link (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/05/ranking-the-nfl-qbs-matt-schaub-doesnt-get-much-respect/)



Here’s the ranking and the reasoning:

23. Matt Schaub, Texans: This may seem unfair given how close Schaub and Houston have come to making it to the Super Bowl. But their success isn’t about the quarterback — it’s about the system and running the ball and playing defense. The Texans gave Schaub a four-year extension in 2012 and it may be a decision they’ll regret soon. Schaub’s a very nice quarterback, but is he someone who’s going to win a Super Bowl without a stout running game and a big-time defense? I really don’t think so.

Big Lou
05-16-2013, 12:46 AM
Link (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/05/ranking-the-nfl-qbs-matt-schaub-doesnt-get-much-respect/)

Whatever credibility this writer had was gone when he put Josh Freeman 5 spots higher than Schaub. Schaub may have his limitations but Josh Freeman, really?

Texn4life
05-16-2013, 12:50 AM
Well............ This should get interesting.

ArlingtonTexan
05-16-2013, 01:01 AM
Whatever credibility this writer had was gone when he put Josh Freeman 5 spots higher than Schaub. Schaub may have his limitations but Josh Freeman, really?

Freeman is 6 years younger with a stronger arm and at least some mobility. In overall performance, they are closer than not, but Freeman has a better chance of improving than Schuab. In short we probably know what Schuab is, but we don't know what other mediocore guys like Bradford, Tannehill and Freeman will become. They are 'better" for that reason alone.

TheMatrix31
05-16-2013, 03:50 AM
Matt Schaub the 23rd best QB in the league?

****ing asinine.

Texn4life
05-16-2013, 04:12 AM
Matt Schaub the 23rd best QB in the league?

****ing asinine.

He's a whole 2 spots ahead of Locker if that puts it even more in perspective for people. Schaub has had his terrible moments, but its funny to see where Cam Newton is in relation to him and I'm a Cam fan. I can't say its a travesty because I'd rate Schaub middle of the pack right now with the capability of being a top 10 QB if he removes the vagina from in between his legs and grows a pair. His limitations are in his head in my opinion.

silvrhand
05-16-2013, 04:13 AM
Freeman is 6 years younger with a stronger arm and at least some mobility. In overall performance, they are closer than not, but Freeman has a better chance of improving than Schuab. In short we probably know what Schuab is, but we don't know what other mediocore guys like Bradford, Tannehill and Freeman will become. They are 'better" for that reason alone.

quoted because it's true and +rep.

Lucky
05-16-2013, 06:35 AM
Schaub is lumped in a group between 16-23 along with Rivers and Cutler. Regardless of where you think he belongs in that group, Schaub does belong in that group based upon his performance in 2012. The Matt Schaub of 2009-2011 wiuld rank higher.

Lucky
05-16-2013, 06:38 AM
Matt Schaub the 23rd best QB in the league?

****ing asinine.

OK, so 18th would make you feel better?

kingtexan
05-16-2013, 07:12 AM
Matt Schaub the 23rd best QB in the league?

****ing asinine.

Agree. He should be down around 27 or 28th, and depending on what Weeden and Gabbert do in their new systems this year, could fall to 29th. Don't forget he has had his entire career as a starter in the same system to prove himself, and hasn't. Some of these other guys have had to juggle multiple systems, OC's, and/or HC's. I would have no problem having anyone on that list above him starting this year, and would throw in a definite for Dalton or Palmer in his place as well, and wouldn't think Ponder or Locker could do much worse than Matt has.

nero THE zero
05-16-2013, 07:54 AM
Schaub is lumped in a group between 16-23 along with Rivers and Cutler. Regardless of where you think he belongs in that group, Schaub does belong in that group based upon his performance in 2012. The Matt Schaub of 2009-2011 wiuld rank higher.

Yep. I think the tiers are correct.

You can quibble on where Schaub ranks in that particular tier, I probably wouldn't put him last, but I think it's the tier he belongs in, and I certainly could make a case for each QB in that tier to be ranked ahead of him (and vice versa).

Thorn
05-16-2013, 08:11 AM
I'm not a Schaub fan, but I do think he's a bit low on that list. This is not to say I don't want him replaced, because I do. It's just there isn't anyone else on the team or avaliable for signing that could step in and do better for the upcoming season. The Texans seriously need to be looking for a future QB.

Double Barrel
05-16-2013, 10:11 AM
OK, so 18th would make you feel better?

Heck yeah! Because then he's Top 20! :spin:

coon
05-16-2013, 10:56 AM
I think that list is absurd. Schaub is in the top half of Qb's in the league IMO. I created my own list of the top 20 guys, here it is.:
1. Rodgers
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. P. Manning
5. E. Manning
6. Big Ben
7. Luck
8. Matt Ryan
9. Kaepernick
10. Wilson
11. RG3
12. Flacco
13. Romo
14. Schaub
15. Stafford
16. Cutler
17. Newton
18. Dalton
19. Freeman
20. Rivers
I think this is more accurate list, someone's potential doesn't matter in this list until they reach it.

brakos82
05-16-2013, 11:10 AM
There's also the whole looks-like-a-doofus thing too. :kitten:

The Pencil Neck
05-16-2013, 11:10 AM
I think he's ranked way too low but I'm not worried about it.

He wasn't required to put up big numbers to win last year and he didn't. I don't believe that means that he can't.

eriadoc
05-16-2013, 11:15 AM
Can we merge this thread with the "Take a Bow Mr. McNair" thread? :kitten:

MistaRed
05-16-2013, 11:17 AM
Seems about right to me.

ChampionTexan
05-16-2013, 11:33 AM
If the ranking is 2012 in a vacuum, I've got no problem with where he landed.

If the ranking is based on the player's entire career, he's too low (I'd put him somewhere in the low teens).

If the ranking is based on who you'd take for the next 1-3 seasons, it's probably a little bit too low, but as of right now, I can't argue too much. The reality is he's got the 2013 season to change or reinforce the perception. Beyond that, who knows.

And while I have my opinion, basically, with the vast majority of subjective rankings - whether team or individual - I agree with the Shakespearean angle that it's a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

chenjy9
05-16-2013, 11:47 AM
I would say the ranking is a tad low, but not too inaccurate either considering Schaub:

- Constantly looks to check down or throw it out when pushed out of pocket
- Is aging and not getting any younger
- Had extensive work done on his foot, taking away whatever little mobility he ever had
- Constantly underthrows his targets
- No longer throws accurately long distance
- Can NOT be counted on to lead us to victory

Schaub is what it he is, a system manager and not even that great of one.

76Texan
05-16-2013, 12:14 PM
I would say the ranking is a tad low, but not too inaccurate either considering Schaub:

- Constantly looks to check down or throw it out when pushed out of pocket
- Is aging and not getting any younger
- Had extensive work done on his foot, taking away whatever little mobility he ever had
- Constantly underthrows his targets
- No longer throws accurately long distance
- Can NOT be counted on to lead us to victory

Schaub is what it he is, a system manager and not even that great of one.
Well, if Schaub had checked down to Foster instead of trying to throw the ball to Walter, he might have had a TD instead of an INT against the Pats. :foottap:

Rey
05-16-2013, 12:22 PM
This offense doesn't require superbly talented players to function. This system is built to make things easier on guys vs some other offenses that rely on the supreme talent of its players.

I think qb's in this offense will look better than they do in other places because of the style of offense. Overall, it's about doing the right thing. The offense is a little robotic from a qb standpoint and it doesn't leave room for a lot of creativity. When things do break down and Schaub has to make a decision or make a big time play, I'd say he's well below average in that category.

But when things are going as planned, he is very good at doing what he's supposed to and therefore he'll roast you in those instances.

I think Schaub is about where he should be on that list considering the circumstances, but if I was just going purely off of performance no matter what the circumstances, he'd be higher for sure.

I think we can win a Super Bowl with Schaub because we have a legit #2 playmaker(hopefully). I think Hopkins is going to take this offense to another level. Bonner may be a sleeper as well.

Rey
05-16-2013, 12:23 PM
Well, if Schaub had checked down to Foster instead of trying to throw the ball to Walter, he might have had a TD instead of an INT against the Pats. :foottap:

Schaub was a mess at the end of last year. I'll just erase that from my memory bank for now as he hasn't been THAT bad usually.

infantrycak
05-16-2013, 01:20 PM
I think that list is absurd. Schaub is in the top half of Qb's in the league IMO. I created my own list of the top 20 guys, here it is.:
1. Rodgers
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. P. Manning
5. E. Manning
6. Big Ben
7. Luck
8. Matt Ryan
9. Kaepernick
10. Wilson
11. RG3
12. Flacco
13. Romo
14. Schaub
15. Stafford
16. Cutler
17. Newton
18. Dalton
19. Freeman
20. Rivers
I think this is more accurate list, someone's potential doesn't matter in this list until they reach it.

On the original subject - it's too low but who cares.

On the above and not picking on the poster, I am mystified by the Luck love. For example, make an argument Luck is better right now that Wilson - both coming off rookie seasons. He had a good rookie season. It wasn't some epic season.

b0ng
05-16-2013, 01:24 PM
Freeman is 6 years younger with a stronger arm and at least some mobility. In overall performance, they are closer than not, but Freeman has a better chance of improving than Schuab. In short we probably know what Schuab is, but we don't know what other mediocore guys like Bradford, Tannehill and Freeman will become. They are 'better" for that reason alone.

I don't understand how you can say that a guy who throws as many interceptions and has as bad accuracy as Josh Freeman does is close to Matt Schaub in performance but that's not really close to true unless you are speaking strictly of yardage. And if we're just going to go by numbers, then you can't really say that Josh Freeman's arm is that much stronger than Schaub's since Schaub has had more yards per completion every year that he and Freeman have been starting QB's.

I get it that a lot of people think that Schaub is broken down and hardly better than Blaine Gabbert (Which is cringe-worthy to read on TT, I mean really), but that's not really the case. The guy has done plenty enough while here in Houston for me to be able to say that I believe he can bounce back in 2013 and have a better year than he did in 2012 (you know, the year after he lisfranc'd his foot).

off-season rankings are pretty silly though and are only made to fuel arguments on messageboards.

chenjy9
05-16-2013, 02:29 PM
Well, if Schaub had checked down to Foster instead of trying to throw the ball to Walter, he might have had a TD instead of an INT against the Pats. :foottap:

We can talk about exceptions all day, but I still feel like he constantly looks to check down or throw it out instead of looking downfield for a better play. The good QB's constantly look downfield for developing options before resorting to a poor check down or throwing it out if there really is no other alternative. I feel, especially near the end of the season, that as soon as he is forced out of the pocket and scrambles, he immediately looks to the check down/throw away as a higher priority option. To me personally, that is simply unacceptable. I understand he is not mobile and has less time, but at least scan downfield and see if you can get a home run out of the breakdown! It just seems like Schaub rushes those poor decisions way too fast, like that pass to Foster where he threw it way too early instead of letting Foster beat his man, which he most definitely would have. Schaub is just not a reliable QB in my eyes. Sure we can win with him, but it will be in spite of him and not because of him.

80tothezone
05-16-2013, 02:38 PM
Link (http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/05/ranking-the-nfl-qbs-matt-schaub-doesnt-get-much-respect/)

Seriously I mean can we get a stout defense around here!? Or a decent running back?! 10 damn years...

coon
05-16-2013, 05:10 PM
On the original subject - it's too low but who cares.

On the above and not picking on the poster, I am mystified by the Luck love. For example, make an argument Luck is better right now that Wilson - both coming off rookie seasons. He had a good rookie season. It wasn't some epic season.

Luck led a far less talented team with no running game or defense to the playoffs. NFL defenses were keyed to stop Luck and struggled to do so. Luck was given more responsibility than Wilson and he stepped up to the plate. I am a huge fan of Wilson but that is an argument for why Luck is better.

thunderkyss
05-16-2013, 05:25 PM
Schaub is lumped in a group between 16-23 along with Rivers and Cutler. Regardless of where you think he belongs in that group, Schaub does belong in that group based upon his performance in 2012. The Matt Schaub of 2009-2011 wiuld rank higher.

I agree with the grouping. I agree with the writer's category, "Limbo (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/22246720/ranking-nfl-qbs-rodgers-brady-peyton-and-brees-are-elites-eli-almost-)" But I don't understand his reasoning, then putting guys like Freeman or Romo ahead of him.

He says Schaub won't win a super bowl without a dominant defense & strong running game. But Freeman will? Romo will? Rivers? Stafford? I'm not seeing it. And Schaub has had more success than all those guys recently.

I think that list is absurd. Schaub is in the top half of Qb's in the league IMO. I created my own list of the top 20 guys, here it is.:
1. Rodgers
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. P. Manning
5. E. Manning
6. Big Ben
7. Luck
8. Matt Ryan
9. Kaepernick
10. Wilson
11. RG3
12. Flacco
13. Romo
14. Schaub
15. Stafford
16. Cutler
17. Newton
18. Dalton
19. Freeman
20. Rivers
I think this is more accurate list, someone's potential doesn't matter in this list until they reach it.

I still have a problem when people rank Flacco & Ryan better than Schaub. & you're got Ryan at way up there in the top ten.

Then Luck.... I didn't see it when he was at Stanford & I didn't see it as a rookie. Russell Wilson & RG3 were better "quarterbacks" than Luck.

Potential... yeah, I guess he's got it in spades. That might make him a QB I'd rather have, but it doesn't make him a top 10 QB. Not in this league.

thunderkyss
05-16-2013, 05:28 PM
I think he's ranked way too low but I'm not worried about it.

He wasn't required to put up big numbers to win last year and he didn't. I don't believe that means that he can't.

Uh... I would have liked to have seen some big numbers weeks 16 & 17. A win in either of those games would have been nice as well.

Wolf
05-16-2013, 05:39 PM
Its in the eyes
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0618/nfl_i_schaub_480.jpg

http://oi54.tinypic.com/x5bgw3.jpg

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76634&highlight=schaub

infantrycak
05-16-2013, 05:44 PM
Luck led a far less talented team with no running game or defense to the playoffs. NFL defenses were keyed to stop Luck and struggled to do so. Luck was given more responsibility than Wilson and he stepped up to the plate. I am a huge fan of Wilson but that is an argument for why Luck is better.

Well, it's an argument but I'm not buying it.

Less talented team I will give you but not as much as the prior season's records imply. NFL defenses were not particularly keyed to stop Luck - we are not talking Peyton Luck here. More responsibility is just supposition. I liked Luck as a rookie but there is no way I would put him at #7. Across the board he has a lot of improvement to make. You aren't going to make it with 54% completions in the modern era - by the way that would translate to last among starting QB's last year.

Double Barrel
05-16-2013, 05:56 PM
I've read the entire article, and to be quite honest, some of this writer's "analysis" comes off as man-crush rankings.

ArlingtonTexan
05-16-2013, 06:06 PM
I don't understand how you can say that a guy who throws as many interceptions and has as bad accuracy as Josh Freeman does is close to Matt Schaub in performance but that's not really close to true unless you are speaking strictly of yardage. And if we're just going to go by numbers, then you can't really say that Josh Freeman's arm is that much stronger than Schaub's since Schaub has had more yards per completion every year that he and Freeman have been starting QB's.

I get it that a lot of people think that Schaub is broken down and hardly better than Blaine Gabbert (Which is cringe-worthy to read on TT, I mean really), but that's not really the case. The guy has done plenty enough while here in Houston for me to be able to say that I believe he can bounce back in 2013 and have a better year than he did in 2012 (you know, the year after he lisfranc'd his foot).

off-season rankings are pretty silly though and are only made to fuel arguments on messageboards.

i am not some lazy Schuab hater, but he is an okay but limited NFl QB. As he has played for the first 3 or so year of his career Freeman has the same bottom line, but with different strengths and weaknesses than Schuab. Freeman having more arm strength and more mobilty is known not speculation.

I am pretty much convinced (obvious no way to prove) that if you switched those two guys in 2012 that Tampa would have just been out of the playoffs and the Texans would have beat Bengals and lost to the Pats. I don't care that Freeman would have thrown more int or Schaub might have had a higher completion percentage. things would have looked a little different, but neither one in 2012 was clearly better. And yes if I have my choice give the younger average guy over the older average guy, day in and day out.

The Pencil Neck
05-16-2013, 06:17 PM
Uh... I would have liked to have seen some big numbers weeks 16 & 17. A win in either of those games would have been nice as well.

13-3 would have been nice, no doubt. But we were having problems with our offensive line at that point. Newton's injury really hurt us. Schaub got sacked 8 times in those two games... 11 in the last 3.

I mean, think about it... in the first 13 games, he's getting sacked at a rate of 1.2 sacks a game but he was getting sacked at a rate of 3.7 sacks a game in the last three games even when they were trying to minimize the dropbacks. There's no way they wanted to go 30+ dropbacks in those games with that line.

infantrycak
05-16-2013, 06:50 PM
And yes if I have my choice give the younger average guy over the older average guy, day in and day out.

Four seasons as a starter hardly gives much credit to the he will improve argument just because he is younger. Freeman is no rookie. Freeman has been wildly erratic as in one year he throws INT's and one year he throws TD's. Seriously look, he alternates years.

Big arm only counts in completions - Freeman 20 + 161 v. Schaub 204, Freeman 40+ 33 v. Schaub 41. A canon which doesn't hit its target is useless. Ask full of potential David Carr.

Playoffs
05-16-2013, 06:56 PM
I've read the entire article, and to be quite honest, some of this writer's "analysis" comes off as man-crush rankings.Agree. Rankings based on performance in '12.

12 -- http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
11 -- http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/stats/2012/Final/QBR/
09 -- http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/year/2012/seasontype/2
13 -- http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/stats/playersort/NFL/PYDS/2012/post?&_1:col_1=9
12 -- https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2012&pos=QB&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1
9/7 -- http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php?pos=QB

thunderkyss
05-16-2013, 07:07 PM
13-3 would have been nice, no doubt. But we were having problems with our offensive line at that point. Newton's injury really hurt us. Schaub got sacked 8 times in those two games... 11 in the last 3.


I'm not an Eli fan. But I do respect his toughness. There was a game, forgot the specifics, but it was the year they went on to win his first Super Bowl, Eli had been sacked 6 times in the first half of a game. But they needed the win to get to the play-offs.

He played an outstanding 2nd half, they went on to win the game...... the rest


history.

thunderkyss
05-16-2013, 07:12 PM
Four seasons as a starter hardly gives much credit to the he will improve argument just because he is younger. Freeman is no rookie. Freeman has been wildly erratic as in one year he throws INT's and one year he throws TD's. Seriously look, he alternates years.

Big arm only counts in completions - Freeman 20 + 161 v. Schaub 204, Freeman 40+ 33 v. Schaub 41. A canon which doesn't hit its target is useless. Ask full of potential David Carr.

Freeman has also been in more games where it didn't matter. They were losing, or their season was already over. Air it out & see what happens.

If he were in Schaub's situation over the last 4 years, where you're playing more meaningful games, his mistakes & interceptions, & bad plays would turn even more people off.

I understand the thought that he is more athletic. But he's been in the league enough to know that Schaub's got it more upstairs, it's not even close & that difference more than makes up for Schaub's lack of mobility.

bOODRO87
05-16-2013, 07:25 PM
I'll make this short and sweet. Schaub has a more experienced OL this year minus Newton who wasn't great to begin with. AJ, OD, nor Arian are coming off injury. We have a potential offensive ROY at #2 WR. If there isn't a major injury to the team and we get booted before the AFCCG, either Gary or Matt has to go. Maybe both considering the fashion that it's done in.

We have so many above average players on this team. If this team's HC/QB can't get to the AFCCG after 6+ years together, I believe it's time to go with the talent they have had.

Goatcheese
05-16-2013, 07:54 PM
I don't see how even the biggest hater could rank Schaub outside of the top 16. He's efficient, reliable and smart with the ball. Who cares if he looks like a dufus and is rocking the personality of a grape fruit?

Even on a down year, Schaub threw for 4k yards 22 TDs and a 90.7 QB rating. Half the guys above him on this garbage list would consider that a career year.

chenjy9
05-16-2013, 08:51 PM
Another thing to consider, if even a lot of hometown fans doubt Schaub's ability, what makes anyone think those outside of Houston would actually take him seriously? I don't think Schaub is bad, but he is not great either. He is on the bottom end of "good" IMO.

thunderkyss
05-16-2013, 08:55 PM
Another thing to consider, if even a lot of hometown fans doubt Schaub's ability, what makes anyone think those outside of Houston would actually take him seriously? I don't think Schaub is bad, but he is not great either. He is on the bottom end of "good" IMO.

I'm not arguing that. Only that there are a lot less good QBs than Matt Schaub.

kingtexan
05-17-2013, 07:37 AM
He's efficient, reliable and smart with the ball.


:spit:

Talk about rose colored glasses.

b0ng
05-17-2013, 08:02 AM
i am not some lazy Schuab hater, but he is an okay but limited NFl QB. As he has played for the first 3 or so year of his career Freeman has the same bottom line, but with different strengths and weaknesses than Schuab. Freeman having more arm strength and more mobilty is known not speculation.

I am pretty much convinced (obvious no way to prove) that if you switched those two guys in 2012 that Tampa would have just been out of the playoffs and the Texans would have beat Bengals and lost to the Pats. I don't care that Freeman would have thrown more int or Schaub might have had a higher completion percentage. things would have looked a little different, but neither one in 2012 was clearly better. And yes if I have my choice give the younger average guy over the older average guy, day in and day out.

Hell your over here banging the table for a guy who has a better than zero percent chance of being replaced by a 3rd round rookie (http://www.bucsnation.com/2013/5/16/4336534/buccaneers-love-mike-glennon-who-could-replace-josh-freeman-during). There's a lot of very good reasons that the Bucs aren't nearly as enamored with Freeman as you are, which is all pretty much lined out in the post you responded to.

BigBull17
05-17-2013, 08:25 AM
I think that list is absurd. Schaub is in the top half of Qb's in the league IMO. I created my own list of the top 20 guys, here it is.:
1. Rodgers
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. P. Manning
5. E. Manning
6. Big Ben
7. Luck
8. Matt Ryan
9. Kaepernick
10. Wilson
11. RG3
12. Flacco
13. Romo
14. Schaub
15. Stafford
16. Cutler
17. Newton
18. Dalton
19. Freeman
20. Rivers
I think this is more accurate list, someone's potential doesn't matter in this list until they reach it.

This is about where I rank him. 15th. Romo as a top ten qb should say everything you need to know about the list. Oh, and Blaine Gabbert above anyone is also absurd. Sanchez is terrible, but hes better than Gabbert and Locker.

On the original subject - it's too low but who cares.

On the above and not picking on the poster, I am mystified by the Luck love. For example, make an argument Luck is better right now that Wilson - both coming off rookie seasons. He had a good rookie season. It wasn't some epic season.

ArlingtonTexan
05-17-2013, 09:11 AM
Hell your over here banging the table for a guy who has a better than zero percent chance of being replaced by a 3rd round rookie (http://www.bucsnation.com/2013/5/16/4336534/buccaneers-love-mike-glennon-who-could-replace-josh-freeman-during). There's a lot of very good reasons that the Bucs aren't nearly as enamored with Freeman as you are, which is all pretty much lined out in the post you responded to.

You consistently have tried overstate my position here. I read a post where two QBs are on the same tier (which I agree) and i said that all things being equal, I would rather at this point have the guy with more chance at improvement. There was never any Schuab stinks nor Freeman is so wonderful in my comments.

Scooter
05-17-2013, 10:07 AM
Schaub was 11th in yards, 16th in touchdowns, 13th in passer rating, and tied for 3rd in wins. that's about where he belongs, somewhere in the 11-16 range. to rank him lower is just hating or putting someone else higher based on potential. to rank potential is silly, last year had 4 hall of fame rookies and every team in the league has a young quarterback who's going to 9 probowls based on their potential.

Lucky
05-17-2013, 07:10 PM
Schaub was 11th in yards, 16th in touchdowns, 13th in passer rating, and tied for 3rd in wins. that's about where he belongs, somewhere in the 11-16 range. to rank him lower is just hating or putting someone else higher based on potential.
OK, we will use your criteria of yards, TDs, and QB rating to determine where Schaub should rank. Wins is not a QB stat. Football teams win games. So unless you're talking about some fantasy geek win share stats that will give everyone a headache, that shouldn't count. Who are the QBs who are ahead of Schaub in yards, TDs, and/or QB rating?m

All 3 Categories
Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Ryan
P. Manning

2 of 3 Categories
Romo
Luck
Freeman
Wilson
Roethlisberger

2 of 3 Categories (if Rushing TDs are included)
Stafford
Palmer
Griffin III

That list puts 13 QBs ahead of Schaub by your criteria. It doesn't include:

Eli Manning
Flacco
Newton
Kaepernick

Do you think there's any team in the NFL that would take Schaub over those 4 QBs? That's 17 QBs ahead of Schaub. And it doesn't include:

Rivers
Cutler
Alex Smith

That's the tier I would put Schaub in. Guys who have had good seasons, but have yet to get over the hump and prove they can carry teams. Vets who have never shown they have that something special to carry teams. That would be:

Rivers
Cutler
Alex Smith
Palmer
Schaub

That would place Schaub between 17-21. Is that really so far off from the #23 ranking he was given? No one is hating or being silly. Matt Schaub is a soon to be 32 year old middle of the road QB who has likely peaked. That's reality.

And I would be happy with that if we knew the Texans were getting the Matt Schaub from of the initial 12 games with a 94.5 QBR and not the Matt Schaub who sputtered into the playoffs with a 78.6 QBR over the last 4 games. Because the Matt Schaub that ended the season is not going to get the Texans where they want to be. No matter where you rank him.

tru80texan
05-17-2013, 08:14 PM
OK, we will use your criteria of yards, TDs, and QB rating to determine where Schaub should rank. Wins is not a QB stat. Football teams win games. So unless you're talking about some fantasy geek win share stats that will give everyone a headache, that shouldn't count. Who are the QBs who are ahead of Schaub in yards, TDs, and/or QB rating?

All 3 Categories
Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Ryan
P. Manning

2 of 3 Categories
Romo
Luck
Freeman
Wilson
Roethlisberger

2 of 3 Categories (if Rushing TDs are included)
Stafford
Palmer Griffin III

That list puts 13 QBs ahead of Schaub by your criteria. It doesn't include:

Eli Manning
Flacco
Newton
Kaepernick

Do you think there's any team in the NFL that would take Schaub over those 4 QBs? That's 17 QBs ahead of Schaub. And it doesn't include:

Rivers
Cutler
Alex Smith

That's the tier I would put Schaub in. Guys who have had good seasons, but have yet to get over the hump and prove they can carry teams. Vets who have never shown they have that something special to carry teams. That would be:

Rivers
Cutler
Alex Smith
Palmer
Schaub

That would place Schaub between 17-21. Is that really so far off from the #23 ranking he was given? No one is hating or being silly. Matt Schaub is a soon to be 32 year old middle of the road QB who has likely peaked. That's reality.

And I would be happy with that if we knew the Texans were getting the Matt Schaub from of the initial 12 games with a 94.5 QBR and not the Matt Schaub who sputtered into the playoffs with a 78.6 QBR over the last 4 games. Because the Matt Schaub that ended the season is not going to get the Texans where they want to be. No matter where you rank him.

I would have to agree. I think Schaub is at the top of the group you listed him in, but I believe there are young QB's such as Stafford & Newton who have the potential to grow & separate themselves from him. The criteria of team wins that another poster listed doesn't paint the full picture of the potential of an individual player & Stafford & Newton seem to be perfect examples of that. Their teams struggled but that doesn't diminish their overall talent imo.

Schaub is good but faultered at the end of last season. It remains to be seen if it was just a temporary slump or the beginning of deteriorated skills. Time will tell.

The Pencil Neck
05-17-2013, 09:40 PM
Schaub is good but faultered at the end of last season. It remains to be seen if it was just a temporary slump or the beginning of deteriorated skills. Time will tell.

I think that Newton trying to play through an injury had a lot to do with this. Schaub starting getting hit a lot more and he stopped trusting that he'd have time to throw.

32 years old isn't that old for a quarterback. Lots of guys continue to produce past that point and some guys even get better as they get into their mid-30's.

If we can upgrade our line and the depth of the line, I think Schaub will do better.

tru80texan
05-17-2013, 10:05 PM
I think that Newton trying to play through an injury had a lot to do with this. Schaub starting getting hit a lot more and he stopped trusting that he'd have time to throw.

32 years old isn't that old for a quarterback. Lots of guys continue to produce past that point and some guys even get better as they get into their mid-30's.

If we can upgrade our line and the depth of the line, I think Schaub will do better.

I agree he isn't old, but sometimes QB's just lose it. Culpepper completely fell off the map shortly after being one of the leading passers. Rivers is struggling like no other despite his age. McNabb went from being a #1 QB to out of the NFL in a few short years. It can happen & is exactly the reason why I said that time will tell.

I hope its just a slump for the sake of the Texans, but he finished very poorly & didn't show much improvement until the Pats laid off & gave up easy yardage to close out the playoff game. Hopefully the o-line will show improvement & w/ the addition of Hopkins Schaub will have tools around him to succeed. In my mind this essentially erases all the excuses & puts the success & failures of the offense on Schaub & his performances alone. They go as he goes.

Lucky
05-17-2013, 10:24 PM
I think that Newton trying to play through an injury had a lot to do with this. Schaub starting getting hit a lot more and he stopped trusting that he'd have time to throw.
Really. is that that much difference between Newton and Ryan Harris? I'm not sure if Harris isn't a better pass protector. And it's not as if the Texans were facing formidable pass defenses at the end of the season. Indy (21st), Minnesota (24th), and New England (29th) should not have given the Texans pass offense as much trouble as they did.


Schaub is good but faultered at the end of last season. It remains to be seen if it was just a temporary slump or the beginning of deteriorated skills. Time will tell.
Another possible explanation is injury. Be it a flare up of the foot or a new injury.

The Pencil Neck
05-17-2013, 10:41 PM
Really. is that that much difference between Newton and Ryan Harris? I'm not sure if Harris isn't a better pass protector. And it's not as if the Texans were facing formidable pass defenses at the end of the season. Indy (21st), Minnesota (24th), and New England (29th) should not have given the Texans pass offense as much trouble as they did.

Up to the point Newton went down (using a rotation of Newton and Harris), we were averaging a little less than 1.4 sacks per game.

Newton went down and didn't play in the Titan game (0 sacks), the First New England Debacle (2 sacks), the Colts (3 sacks). Then he came back and started trying to play through the injury and we jump up to 4 sacks against the Vikings and the Colts.

In the playoffs, our sack totals went back down but I believe that Newton coming back in for those last two games and trying to play went a long way to keeping us from winning AND to getting Schaub rattled and possibly re-injured. I don't think Schaub was totally healthy those last few games.

tru80texan
05-17-2013, 10:41 PM
Really. is that that much difference between Newton and Ryan Harris? I'm not sure if Harris isn't a better pass protector. And it's not as if the Texans were facing formidable pass defenses at the end of the season. Indy (21st), Minnesota (24th), and New England (29th) should not have given the Texans pass offense as much trouble as they did.


Another possible explanation is injury. Be it a flare up of the foot or a new injury.

Until I hear something from a legitimate source about an injury, I'm not going to assume that one exist just to excuse his poor play. There has been plenty of time & tons of criticism that you would assume that if an injury did exist it would have surfaced by now in attempt to at least quiet some of the criticism. If it existed I believe it would've been reported by now. Everything I've have read is he is healthy & going about his normal activities. If I recall correctly, even our own Texans Chick has stated the same.

Sometimes poor play is just poor play. Players can regress & it remains to be seen if Schaub can get it turned around. Hopefully it was just a slump, but it will be on Schaub to prove the doubters wrong as many of his past excuses are being addressed imo.

Lucky
05-18-2013, 07:02 AM
Until I hear something from a legitimate source about an injury, I'm not going to assume that one exist just to excuse his poor play.

Players and even teams hide injuries (see Ed Reed, hip). You can wait to hear whatever you want, and I will continue to believe what I see with my eyes. Even McNair alluded to Schaub getting healthier this offseason. Maybe he knows something, or maybe he just saw what I saw. Whether Schaub was playing hurt or not is speculation either way.

TejasTom
05-18-2013, 07:21 AM
Who are the QBs who are ahead of Schaub in yards, TDs, and/or QB rating?

All 3 Categories
Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Ryan
P. Manning


So 2 first ballot HOFers and 2 more that will probably will make it vs Schab on a team with AJ and the third stringers with a run first conservative coach. None of them in the big game this year either.

texanhead08
05-18-2013, 11:07 AM
This has been the longest off season ever, and the Schaub ripping that has gone on with our fanbase is getting old fast. I love how everyone seems to ignore our defense giving up 40 points twice to the Patriots. If that happens again this year we could have Jesus H Christ at QB and we would still lose.

thunderkyss
05-18-2013, 12:23 PM
I agree he isn't old, but sometimes QB's just lose it. Culpepper completely fell off the map shortly after being one of the leading passers. Rivers is struggling like no other despite his age. McNabb went from being a #1 QB to out of the NFL in a few short years. It can happen & is exactly the reason why I said that time will tell.

I hope its just a slump for the sake of the Texans, but he finished very poorly

Culpepper was never the same after the knee. He wasn't much of a scrambler before that, but in a pinch, he'd pick up 10 yards if needed. That part of his game was taken away from him & he became more of a statue, with less talented players around him. No more Moss, no more CC, no more Robert Smith.

McNabb couldn't stay healthy, then after leaving Philly & Andy Ried's system, he struggled to learn new things (I've always said his problem was instead of developing his QB, Ried developed a system around his QB).

Rivers, the team around him has steadily got worse & worse.

I don't think Schaub is elite, but in this system he can look like it. I think TPN is most right about Newton's injury being the biggest reason our offense took a nose dive in December & January. It's not that Newton is that much better than Harris, it's that Newton is more consistent.

Kubiak/Schaub can plan around consistency & that's what makes our offence tick. Myers wouldn't be starting for any other team, I'm surprised Briesel is. But together they can give Kubiak/Schaub something they can consistently work with.

KDub was consistent, we kept him instead of Jacoby, even though Jacoby was the better play-maker. & that's the thing Hopkins has to provide if he's going to truly be a part of our offense in 2013.

I don't think Schaub's foot is a "big" problem for us. There hasn't been one word about helping Matt deal with an injury, or even playing better later in the year (not one word from the Texans, got a lot from us on tt.com). Bringing in Stephen McGee & Colin Klein are the only measures we've taken to improve the QB position.

Next year, I think Schaub is going to look elite again

Lucky
05-18-2013, 12:40 PM
So 2 first ballot HOFers and 2 more that will probably will make it vs Schab on a team with AJ and the third stringers with a run first conservative coach. None of them in the big game this year either.
What exactly are you trying to say? Those QBs have led their teams to championships. We don't know yet if Schaub is even capable of going along for the ride.

No one is suggesting that the Texans have to have QB play at the Brady-Peyton level. It would be nice, but that's not happening. What we want to see is something along the lines of the 2011 Eli Manning or 2012 Joe Flacco playoff level. That is not too much to ask and likely necessary for the Texans to become Super Bowl champs.

tru80texan
05-18-2013, 01:20 PM
Culpepper was never the same after the knee. He wasn't much of a scrambler before that, but in a pinch, he'd pick up 10 yards if needed. That part of his game was taken away from him & he became more of a statue, with less talented players around him. No more Moss, no more CC, no more Robert Smith.

McNabb couldn't stay healthy, then after leaving Philly & Andy Ried's system, he struggled to learn new things (I've always said his problem was instead of developing his QB, Ried developed a system around his QB).

Rivers, the team around him has steadily got worse & worse.

I don't think Schaub is elite, but in this system he can look like it. I think TPN is most right about Newton's injury being the biggest reason our offense took a nose dive in December & January. It's not that Newton is that much better than Harris, it's that Newton is more consistent.

Kubiak/Schaub can plan around consistency & that's what makes our offence tick. Myers wouldn't be starting for any other team, I'm surprised Briesel is. But together they can give Kubiak/Schaub something they can consistently work with.

KDub was consistent, we kept him instead of Jacoby, even though Jacoby was the better play-maker. & that's the thing Hopkins has to provide if he's going to truly be a part of our offense in 2013.

I don't think Schaub's foot is a "big" problem for us. There hasn't been one word about helping Matt deal with an injury, or even playing better later in the year (not one word from the Texans, got a lot from us on tt.com). Bringing in Stephen McGee & Colin Klein are the only measures we've taken to improve the QB position.

Next year, I think Schaub is going to look elite again

That's not completely accurate concerning Walter & Jacoby. Both players following the 2011 season had meetings w/ the Texans, that's when Walter ultimately was forced to take a pay cut & it was speculated but never confirmed that Jacoby could've been asked to do the same. Jacoby instead requested that he be released. It had nothing to w/ consistency because all Walter was consistent at was disappearing in games. It seemed to be based on money & Jacoby chose to ask for his release, not the Texans choosing to cut him w/out his say.

I hope you are right concerning Schaub. As I have said before, time will tell but how he finished very poorly in multiple games has raised many doubts. Hopefully he can return to his old self, but it is not unheard of that some players just regress & never return to form. For the sake of the Texans I hope that is not the case because w/ their decisions concerning the qb position it seems they are not really putting much emphasis on preparing for the future at the qb position. Let's hope for a rebound so that he can be considered one of the best qb's once again & hopefully take the texans to at least the AFCCG.

tru80texan
05-18-2013, 01:29 PM
Players and even teams hide injuries (see Ed Reed, hip). You can wait to hear whatever you want, and I will continue to believe what I see with my eyes. Even McNair alluded to Schaub getting healthier this offseason. Maybe he knows something, or maybe he just saw what I saw. Whether Schaub was playing hurt or not is speculation either way.

And that is exactly why I refuse to acknowledge or accept those types of excuses until they can be confirmed. Because it's nothing more then speculation & IMO is nothing more then an effort to divert from the truth in hopes of creating an additional excuse for poor play. Let's be honest, any player could claim an injury led to their poor play & we had one of the best at it in Mario. The excuses could be endless if they never have to be confirmed & that's how I feel about it concerning all players. How would it be any different if I claimed Barwin had to be playing w/ an injury & that's why he had an off year? IMO it's no different & most wouldn't buy it just because I claimed it. Hopefully this all can be put to rest soon if Schaub comes out & has a good 2013 season. The season can't get here soon enough.

infantrycak
05-18-2013, 01:43 PM
And that is exactly why I refuse to acknowledge or accept those types of excuses until they can be confirmed. Because it's nothing more then speculation & IMO is nothing more then an effort to divert from the truth in hopes of creating an additional excuse for poor play.

Our resident doctor was predicting this kind of problem as soon as Schaub was injured so you might rein in the excuse making allegation.

TheMatrix31
05-18-2013, 06:10 PM
I'd like to see what happens this coming year. Last year soured Schaub's brand among Texans fans and fans around the league. Going into last year, he was a QB that was borderline Top 10. I think he's slipped back to around 15 or so with the potential to jump back up to between 10-15 if he has a bounce back year.

23 is asinine. Bottom line. Luckily, rankings don't matter and this is just trollish offseason discussion fodder.

Premier
05-19-2013, 03:40 PM
schaub is fools gold, we will coast to a 10-12 win season, struggle to beat teams with superior qbs, and fluff out in the division round..

tru80texan
05-20-2013, 03:51 PM
Our resident doctor was predicting this kind of problem as soon as Schaub was injured so you might rein in the excuse making allegation.

I'm not doubting he is a doctor or that he may have suggested or implied that an injury may exist w/ Schaub, BUT unless he has some direct dealings w/ Schaub & can confirm an injury w/ proof then the excuse making allegation will reign supreme w/ me. I don't mean to sound rude & by no means am I discounting the resident doctors skills, but if you can't personally prove something & you have nothing that has been put out by another legitimate source that has had dealings w/ Schaub personally then all you have are unproven opinions & no one has to accept those as truth imo. Thanks for your suggestion but I think I will pass.

infantrycak
05-20-2013, 05:07 PM
I'm not doubting he is a doctor

Good since 50+ people on the MB can confirm he is a doc.

or that he may have suggested or implied that an injury may exist w/ Schaub, BUT unless he has some direct dealings w/ Schaub & can confirm an injury w/ proof

You aren't understanding what I said. There is no question over an injury. Everyone in the world knows Schaub suffered a lis franc injury. The question is what is the end result after recovery from that injury. CnD described what happened to Schaub last year in the weeks while Schaub was sitting watching Yates. So none of it is about a new injury, it is just about how a body responds to a known injury.

then the excuse making allegation will reign supreme w/ me.

As you will, remain ignorant and define yourself.

tru80texan
05-20-2013, 07:31 PM
Good since 50+ people on the MB can confirm he is a doc.



You aren't understanding what I said. There is no question over an injury. Everyone in the world knows Schaub suffered a lis franc injury. The question is what is the end result after recovery from that injury. CnD described what happened to Schaub last year in the weeks while Schaub was sitting watching Yates. So none of it is about a new injury, it is just about how a body responds to a known injury.



As you will, remain ignorant and define yourself.

1st statement=completely worthless & irrelevant but thanks for the fact checks.

The claim has been made that Schaub suffered an injury or aggravated an old injury(the known lisfranc injury) at the END of last season on multiple occasions, primarily amongst fans, & has yet to be confirmed by anyone associated w/ the Texans or Schaub. It other words, its baseless speculation. Your efforts to spin it now are weak to say the least but I applaud your efforts to cover your tracks as well as you possibly can. This had nothing to do w/ how his body responded to his former injury because Schaub played well through a majority of the season & the mystery injury or re-aggravation talk arrived & thrived only after he struggled & the criticism mounted. How can anyone claim there was anything wrong w/ Schaub when absolutely nothing has been reported is beyond me. We have no clue if it was an old injury or new injury, so how you , or anyone else for that matter, can claim this had anything to do w/ how is body responded to his old injury is a complete shot in the dark at best. Zero proof= zero case IMO.

Schaub was deemed healthy at the beginning of the season & it seemed so as he played fairly well. Schaub plays poorly at the end of the season & all of a sudden he is suffering a re-aggravation or new injury, but yet again again he was deemed healthy & NOTHING has been provided to say otherwise. Lol! All of that & somehow you have actually convinced yourself that I am the one that remains ignorant. Talk about defining yourself. :kitten:

I guess its safe to say...we can agree to disagree.:worldpeace:

Texan_Bill
05-20-2013, 07:49 PM
Good since 50+ people on the MB can confirm he is a doc.

.

1st statement=completely worthless & irrelevant by thanks for the fact checks.

YUP!! Considering he consulted with my Mom's heart surgeon and monitored Joe's stroke...

CONFIRMED!!


*EDIT*
Maybe you tru80texan should find another contrarian topic to troll because with this one you = FAIL!

infantrycak
05-20-2013, 07:57 PM
All of that & somehow you have actually convinced yourself that I am the one that remains ignorant. Talk about defining yourself. :kitten:

You joined the MB after the latest season. You are the definition of ignorant on what was being said around here two seasons ago. If you weren't so ignorant you would also know CnD is no Schaub fan. But before the end of the season he was injured CnD projected exactly this path - a wearing down over time with increasingly poor performance. It was not a prediction of a new injury or an aggravation of the lis franc but of the normal recovery from a lis franc for a QB.

tru80texan
05-20-2013, 08:07 PM
YUP!! Considering he consulted with my Mom's heart surgeon and monitored Joe's stroke...

CONFIRMED!!


*EDIT*
Maybe you tru80texan should find another contrarian topic to troll because with this one you = FAIL!

Lol! C'mon Bill? Troll...that's very weak & inaccurate usage of the word simply because I don't agree w/ your BFF. In other words... that was a complete FAIL or your behalf.

This has absolutely nothing to do w/ CnD for the record. I respect & appreciate his insight & opinions when he describes & provides info concerning injuries & other aspects in the medical field.

This does have everything to do w/ someone insisting that we should "rein" in our opinions & abide by theirs despite them having zero proof to support their beliefs other than the opinion of another. I surely hope that is not expected to be the norm on here & others can think for themselves w/ out having some coming w/ the silly troll name calling just to defend their buddy. Sure seems childish to say the least, but to each their own.

Texan_Bill
05-20-2013, 08:08 PM
You joined the MB after the latest season. You are the definition of ignorant on what was being said around here two seasons ago. If you weren't so ignorant you would also know CnD is no Schaub fan. But before the end of the season he was injured CnD projected exactly this path - a wearing down over time with increasingly poor performance. It was not a prediction of a new injury or an aggravation of the lis franc but of the normal recovery from a lis franc for a QB.

Chris, I'm way too lazy to find CnD's post about the wearing down during the season of Schaub's performance while recovering from the Lis Franc injury but I will at least (and I've posted many times) that Doc Jean (aka CnD) was spot on.

Texan_Bill
05-20-2013, 08:13 PM
Lol! C'mon Bill? Troll...that's very weak & inaccurate usage of the word simply because I don't agree w/ your BFF. In other words... that was a complete FAIL or your behalf.

This has absolutely nothing to do w/ CnD for the record. I respect & appreciate his insight & opinions when he describes & provides info concerning injuries & other aspects in the medical field.

This does have everything to do w/ someone insisting that we should "rein" in our opinions & abide by theirs despite them having zero proof to support their beliefs other than the opinion of another. I surely hope that is not expected to be the norm on here & others can think for themselves w/ out having some coming w/ the silly troll name calling just to defend their buddy. Sure seems childish to say the least, but to each their own.

If you're not trolling, what are you doing? What is all that all of that ^^ GARBAGE.

And BTW, just to be a dick......... It's "reign"

tru80texan
05-20-2013, 08:14 PM
You joined the MB after the latest season. You are the definition of ignorant on what was being said around here two seasons ago. If you weren't so ignorant you would also know CnD is no Schaub fan. But before the end of the season he was injured CnD projected exactly this path - a wearing down over time with increasingly poor performance. It was not a prediction of a new injury or an aggravation of the lis franc but of the normal recovery from a lis franc for a QB.

Lol! Once again, I never have doubted CnD but am still waiting for someone other then MB members to confirm or provide proof of an injury to Schaub. It simply hasn't happened. You can claim your superiority all you want, but in the end it means nothing because you can provide nothing that confirms your claim. I try to have facts before making statements, you choose another path.

Once again, it's up to others to decide who is really dealing w/ ignorance. Hopefully the pissing match is over as I will politely agree to disagree w/ you yet again & time will tell concerning Schaub. :texflag:

tru80texan
05-20-2013, 08:21 PM
If you're not trolling, what are you doing? What is all that all of that ^^ GARBAGE.

And BTW, just to be a dick......... It's "reign"

Lol! You have succeeded w/ at least one portion of your statement. I let you guess which part. The other portion...not so much. I was quoting your buddy w/ "rein" & Im pretty sure he used the right word in the right context. Thanks...for nothing.

When you are offering an opinion on a topic...it's not always trolling simply because you don't agree with it. Not having the facts of all the conversations & ranting over nothing while providing nothing, similar to what you are doing, could be deemed "trolling" by some, but that's just my opinion.

Texan_Bill
05-20-2013, 08:28 PM
Lol! You have succeeded w/ at least one portion of your statement. I let you guess which part. The other portion...not so much. I was quoting your buddy w/ "rein" & Im pretty sure he used the right word in the right context. Thanks...for nothing.

When you are offering an opinion on a topic...it's not always trolling simply because you don't agree with it. Not having the facts of all the conversations & ranting over nothing while providing nothing, similar to what you are doing, could be deemed "trolling" by some, but that's just my opinion.

CAK, I accidentally busted you.. #Stanford

I was quoting your buddy w/ "rein"

When you are offering an opinion on a topic...it's not always trolling simply because you don't agree with it. Not having the facts of all the conversations & ranting over nothing while providing nothing, similar to what you are doing, could be deemed "trolling" by some, but that's just my opinion

IIRC you questioned Doc's credentials as a doctor, which is the only reason I responded.

*EDIT*

I forgot the obligatory "Lol!

infantrycak
05-20-2013, 08:30 PM
This does have everything to do w/ someone insisting that we should "rein" in our opinions & abide by theirs despite them having zero proof to support their beliefs other than the opinion of another. I surely hope that is not expected to be the norm on here & others can think for themselves w/ out having some coming w/ the silly troll name calling just to defend their buddy. Sure seems childish to say the least, but to each their own.

Damn you are thick. Say what you want opinion wise but fact is you are new here and you can't come in and credibly make sweeping generalizations on what people thought long before you joined and hence the background for the comments even since you have arrived. Having a doctor predict exactly what happens is not zero proof. Talking out your ass about a MB you weren't a member of and divining the intentions of people you don't know - that is zero proof. :worldpeace:

CAK, I accidentally busted you.. #Stanford

Dude - #Berkeley

tru80texan
05-20-2013, 08:32 PM
CAK, I accidentally busted you.. #Stanford





IIRC you questioned Doc's credentials as a doctor, which is the only reason I responded.

I politely disagree. I have never doubted CnD is a doctor or stated such during these conversations. His credentials never came in to question from me. I simply doubted the injury theory that MANY have adopted yet have no proof of. That was all. Hopefully that clears that up & we too can politely agree to disagree.

tru80texan
05-20-2013, 08:40 PM
Damn you are thick. Say what you want opinion wise but fact is you are new here and you can't come in and credibly make sweeping generalizations on what people thought long before you joined and hence the background for the comments even since you have arrived. Having a doctor predict exactly what happens is not zero proof. Talking out your ass about a MB you weren't a member of and divining the intentions of people you don't know - that is zero proof. :worldpeace:

lol! I've heard that once or twice. I can live w/ that. I have a strange feeling though...that maybe you've heard the same as well. I will stand pat on my belief until something is reported & can be proven w/out doubt. It's just my nature to have facts. So I will continue to be "thick" on this & agree to disagree. Hopefully that is fair enough for you as you cannot expect all to agree & believe the same all of the time.:texflag:

ObsiWan
05-21-2013, 12:26 AM
lol! I've heard that once or twice. I can live w/ that. I have a strange feeling though...that maybe you've heard the same as well. I will stand pat on my belief until something is reported & can be proven w/out doubt. It's just my nature to have facts. So I will continue to be "thick" on this & agree to disagree. Hopefully that is fair enough for you as you cannot expect all to agree & believe the same all of the time.:texflag:
If you are awaiting some declaration from the Texans regarding Schaub's deteriorating health status in the last two months of the season, you await in vain. When it comes to revealing health matters the Texans - and they aren't alone in this philosophy - say as little as they can get away with. Even when guys have been withheld from play - Ben Tate comes to mind - Kubiak will merely say, "he's a little 'nicked up' or 'he's 'battling through some things'". Ben Tate's carries were waaay down from the year before, but how many times was he actually on the injury report?

Point is, you'll be waiting quite a while if you're waiting for the Texans to confess anything regarding an injury. And they aren't the only team who operates this way; Belichick is famous for being closed mouth about such things.

thunderkyss
05-21-2013, 01:04 AM
If you are awaiting some declaration from the Texans regarding Schaub's deteriorating health status in the last two months of the season, you await in vain. When it comes to revealing health matters the Texans - and they aren't alone in this philosophy - say as little as they can get away with. Even when guys have been withheld from play - Ben Tate comes to mind - Kubiak will merely say, "he's a little 'nicked up' or 'he's 'battling through some things'". Ben Tate's carries were waaay down from the year before, but how many times was he actually on the injury report?

Point is, you'll be waiting quite a while if you're waiting for the Texans to confess anything regarding an injury.

Except there is no question Tate wasn't completely healthy.

Matt threw the ball 51 times against NewEngland, 66% completion, 90 QB rating. He should have had 1 other TD, the one Casey dropped, which would have helped his QBr........ just saying while the general consensus is that Matt Played poorly, the truth is, that's Matt. He played the same in Jacksonville, @ NYJets, & at home against GreenBay.... all before the bye.

Then look (http://www.nfl.com/player/mattschaub/2505982/gamelogs)@ Chicago & @ Detroit in November..... Matt.

I don't think this is as directly related to Schaub's LisFranc as CnD suggests. He talked about not following through, or favoring one particular foot, or a reluctance to shift his weight, etc.. He said you could see it in Matt's play, but I replayed all the games several times & nothing was "obvious" to me.

But I'm no doctor.

Then Matt played just as poorly in the ProBowl..... if his foot was bothering him, why play at all? He doesn't owe anything to anybody & definitely wasn't going to prove anything to anyone @ the ProBowl.

Between then & now, the Texans have done less than nothing to address the position. Yeah, if they "know/knew" they might not say anything, but they would have done more than they have.

Lucky
05-21-2013, 07:07 AM
Matt threw the ball 51 times against NewEngland, 66% completion, 90 QB rating. He should have had 1 other TD, the one Casey dropped, which would have helped his QBr........ just saying while the general consensus is that Matt Played poorly, the truth is, that's Matt.
The "consensus" is that Schaub played like crap against New England, is because he played like crap. Most of his stats were in the 4th quarter against a prevent defense after the game had been decided. When it mattered, Schaub led 4 consecutive drives that ended in punts in the 1st half. After the break, the Texans went punt, interception, out on downs. Ballgame. And the TD pass that was dropped by Casey was not setup on a long drive, but a 90+ yard kick return. Schaub had another chance on 3rd down and missed.

That was not the Matt Schaub that led the Texans to a win in Denver against a much better defense. Not the Matt Schaub that brought the Texans back against Jacksonville. There is a disconnect between the Matt Schaub of the 1st 12 weeks and the Matt Schaub that ended the season. Everyone has their own opinions as to why. But to suggest that what we saw was "just Matt" is putting your head in the sand.

ObsiWan
05-21-2013, 07:17 AM
I dunno about "doing next to nothing".
My memory might be faulty, but I don't ever recall having FIVE QBs on the payroll before. Do you? Even when Schaub, Sexy Rexy, and HotTub Boy were all here, we didn't have five QBs on the payroll did we?

So just perhaps Smithiak is (are?) actively searching for something. So, despite the positive coachspeak, 5 QBs on the payroll says, to me, they aren't totally happy with Schaub, Yates, or Keenum and are looking to, at a minimum, "push" one or two of them. Perhaps even replace one of them.

Edit: I guess you could point to the year Schaub got hurt. We had him, Leinart, Yates, Jake D. and whatshisname (with the hot wife) all on the payroll. But two of those guys were completely out of commission so that example doesn't truly play into this discussion.

I think Smithiak is (are?) lookiing for a Schaub successor. Obviously not as aggressively as some fans would like, but I think they are.

deucetx
05-21-2013, 07:53 AM
IIRC you questioned Doc's credentials as a doctor, which is the only reason I responded.



Read back. He didn't question the doc's credentials. Not at all. So all this overly defensive nature is a bit much. In fact, he said that he doesn't doubt the doc's credentials so not even sure where you got the idea that he did.

As for the doc's prediction...it is just that. A prediction. No one save Schaub, the team and his actual doctor know if his foot began bothering him toward the end. It is simply trying to find a reason for his poor play. The only actual fact is he played like crap. There is no fact in a prediction until confirmed one way or another. Simply put nothing here is factual except the crappy play. This really wasn't worth leaping on the guy about.

Plus like TK pointed out, if his foot was bothering him to that extent then Schaub is a bit foolish for playing in a probowl, don't you think? From all we see he is continuing his offseason training per norm, OTA's etc. So again, we are just predicting and with no confirmation this all conjecture and guesswork.

Not to mention all players late in the year are hurting in way or another. You step on the field you need to perform so in the end don't really care if it was because his foot, his motion, his head, his wife not giving him any quality time or whatever. I just want to see him play better.

tru80texan
05-21-2013, 07:53 AM
I dunno about "doing next to nothing".
My memory might be faulty, but I don't ever recall having FIVE QBs on the payroll before. Do you? Even when Schaub, Sexy Rexy, and HotTub Boy were all here, we didn't have five QBs on the payroll did we?

So just perhaps Smithiak is (are?) actively searching for something. So, despite the positive coachspeak, 5 QBs on the payroll says, to me, they aren't totally happy with Schaub, Yates, or Keenum and are looking to, at a minimum, "push" one or two of them. Perhaps even replace one of them.

Edit: I guess you could point to the year Schaub got hurt. We had him, Leinart, Yates, Jake D. and whatshisname (with the hot wife) all on the payroll. But two of those guys were completely out of commission so that example doesn't truly play into this discussion.

I think Smithiak is (are?) lookiing for a Schaub successor. Obviously not as aggressively as some fans would like, but I think they are.

In all honesty, I don't expect the Texans to be looking for a replacement aggressively based on roughly a little bit more then a hand full of games. Schaub has shown the skills to carry this team in the past & I can't see kubiak giving up on him that quickly. It's not in kubiaks's nature as he is normality a year or 2 late on making necessary moves & even then some come w/ some pushing from an outside source. I fully expect Schaub to be the QB this season & potentially next season, but the recent influx of players at the QB position doesn't seem to of anything of real quality that could potentially push Schaub imo. Until they actually sign a player that has actually displayed some starter quality potential, then they are just going through the motions to put bodies in place & give off the impression that they are doing something about the matter imo. Very similar to what has been going on at the WR position for a few years now.

Schaub deserves a shot at redemption, but I do believe its a situation that should be monitored & addressed seriously if it starts going south. Other teams have addressed the same position w/ actual potential after having an established starter & in the end it has worked out to some of their advantage.

Mr teX
05-21-2013, 11:01 AM
In all honesty, I don't expect the Texans to be looking for a replacement aggressively based on roughly a little bit more then a hand full of games. Schaub has shown the skills to carry this team in the past & I can't see kubiak giving up on him that quickly. It's not in kubiaks's nature as he is normality a year or 2 late on making necessary moves & even then some come w/ some pushing from an outside source. I fully expect Schaub to be the QB this season & potentially next season, but the recent influx of players at the QB position doesn't seem to of anything of real quality that could potentially push Schaub imo. Until they actually sign a player that has actually displayed some starter quality potential, then they are just going through the motions to put bodies in place & give off the impression that they are doing something about the matter imo. Very similar to what has been going on at the WR position for a few years now.

Schaub deserves a shot at redemption, but I do believe its a situation that should be monitored & addressed seriously if it starts going south. Other teams have addressed the same position w/ actual potential after having an established starter & in the end it has worked out to some of their advantage.

.

You're looking at exceptions...The rule however is teams more often than not fail in epic fashion when they go searching for that franchise guy to take them to the next level.....& save for the Bradys, Wilsons and Kapernicks, the overwhelming majority of guys considered to be great franchise altering qbs, almost always come in the 1st round....between picks 1-15..the area in the draft where we weren't this year and even if we were, you could argue we may have needed to address other positions before qb.

But for fun lets go back over the last 2 or so seasons and see how many teams attempted to address the position with actual talent as you say and see how many actually came out on top:

Jaguars - Gabbert replacing Gerrard.....trash

Titans - Locker replacing Collins/Young.....trash

Colts - Luck replacing Orlovsky/Manning.....looks like the real deal...but they had to get inside the top 5 in the draft to get him

Arizona - Kolb replacing Warner.....trash

Minny - Ponder replacing jackson....jury's still out

Redskins - RG3 replacing Grossman/Beck...see the colts explanation

Chiefs - Cassel replacing Thigpen/Croyle/Quinn...Garbage, garbage and more garbage

Jets, Bills, Raiders and the Browns.....literally 1 disaster after another.

you can go on and on with at least a couple more teams and pretty soon you'd be at about 1/2 - 3/4 of the league.

It's not about redemption with Schaub; most of you guys have to know deep down that he's a good qb...the best we have on the roster. Plus he wasn't solely the reason we went south towards the end of the season last year. That was a total team fail

tru80texan
05-21-2013, 11:54 AM
.

You're looking at exceptions...The rule however is teams more often than not fail in epic fashion when they go searching for that franchise guy to take them to the next level.....& save for the Bradys, Wilsons and Kapernicks, the overwhelming majority of guys considered to be great franchise altering qbs, almost always come in the 1st round....between picks 1-15..the area in the draft where we weren't this year and even if we were, you could argue we may have needed to address other positions before qb.

But for fun lets go back over the last 2 or so seasons and see how many teams attempted to address the position with actual talent as you say and see how many actually came out on top:

Jaguars - Gabbert replacing Gerrard.....trash

Titans - Locker replacing Collins/Young.....trash

Colts - Luck replacing Orlovsky/Manning.....looks like the real deal...but they had to get inside the top 5 in the draft to get him

Arizona - Kolb replacing Warner.....trash

Minny - Ponder replacing jackson....jury's still out

Redskins - RG3 replacing Grossman/Beck...see the colts explanation

Chiefs - Cassel replacing Thigpen/Croyle/Quinn...Garbage, garbage and more garbage

Jets, Bills, Raiders and the Browns.....literally 1 disaster after another.

you can go on and on with at least a couple more teams and pretty soon you'd be at about 1/2 - 3/4 of the league.

It's not about redemption with Schaub; most of you guys have to know deep down that he's a good qb...the best we have on the roster. Plus he wasn't solely the reason we went south towards the end of the season last year. That was a total team fail

49ers replaced Smith w/ Kaepernick- looks like success

Seattle replaced Hasselbeck w/ Wilson- once again...looks like success.

Cincy replaced Palmer w/ Dalton- success yet again. Growing trend here.

Dolphins draft Tannehill & the potential seems to be there.

The Raiders had a decent option in Palmer but they chose to break ties w/ someone they didn't feel was "their guy". Does not he was a disaster imo.

Which leads me to the Cardinals replacing Kolb w/ Palmer. Without a doubt a better option.

If the jury is still out on Ponder, I very much believe the same applies to Locker.

Let's not forget the teams that have drafted QB's recently that many believe have potential & are sitting & learning in Denver & Tampa Bay for example. There are options & other teams have explored them w/ some success. Just because the Texans choose not to doesn't necessarily mean that absolutely nothing exist that could potentially replace Schaub. I'm not saying that all those listed could outperform Schaub if he returns to his old self, but the Schaub that finished the 2012 could easily be pushed by many of them imo.

infantrycak
05-21-2013, 12:14 PM
49ers replaced Smith w/ Kaepernick- looks like success

Seattle replaced Hasselbeck w/ Wilson- once again...looks like success.

Cincy replaced Palmer w/ Dalton- success yet again. Growing trend here.

Yeah, not much of a trend there and certainly not one of calculated QB replacement. Smith doesn't get replaced barring injury. Hasselbeck wasn't replaced by Wilson nor was he intended to be the starter. Palmer forced his way out of Cincy.

noxiousdog
05-21-2013, 12:23 PM
49ers replaced Smith w/ Kaepernick- looks like success

Seattle replaced Hasselbeck w/ Wilson- once again...looks like success.

Can we give these guys more than one y year before we anoint them? Schaub has looked great at times too. Not that they aren't likely to be better than Schaub, especially with age in the equation, but don't be surprised if both of them struggle. Look at the problems Cam had the first half of the season.



Cincy replaced Palmer w/ Dalton- success yet again. Growing trend here.

Dolphins draft Tannehill & the potential seems to be there.

The Raiders had a decent option in Palmer but they chose to break ties w/ someone they didn't feel was "their guy". Does not he was a disaster imo.

Crazy talk. Schaub is better than all those guys. Tannehill has potential, but he's got a long way to go. There's nothing to suggest the others are or will ever be better than Schaub.

Schaub that finished the 2012 could easily be pushed by many of them imo.

I think Schaub's 2012 performance is more related to the loss of Dressen, Graham's injury, crappy right oline play, and Walter's decline.

But we'll see. Certainly the end of the Schaub era is nearing.

tru80texan
05-21-2013, 12:51 PM
Yeah, not much of a trend there and certainly not one of calculated QB replacement. Smith doesn't get replaced barring injury. Hasselbeck wasn't replaced by Wilson nor was he intended to be the starter. Palmer forced his way out of Cincy.

Kaepernick was drafted early behind an established starter was the point. They didn't sit on their hands bringing in late round picks & other teams cast offs who didnt seem to have much potential. Kaepernick had potential & the 49ers took him. Smart move & injury was exactly one of the reasons why you bring a player w/ his potential in. That & of course shaky play, which Smith has experienced in the past. Let's not act as if Smith was an All Pro future HOF'er & injury was the only way he was capable of being ousted.

Carroll spoke highly of Wilson very early in the offseason. Obviously he saw some potential & they drafted him early as well. We can't act as if we knew Carroll's & Seattle's intentions concerning Wilson. Assuming he was drafted early not to be given an opportunity seems a bit shortsighted & in hindsight obviously inaccurate.

Palmer did force his way out of Cincy, but in the end it was Cincy who held all the cards in that situation. Palmer would've had to retire if Cincy chose not to trade him. Cincy got Dalton & he has played well, leading them to 2 playoff appearences & showing the potential to keep growing & getting better.

All 3 were drafted due to shaky QB situations & all 3 teams have faired pretty well imo.

thunderkyss
05-21-2013, 12:51 PM
That was not the Matt Schaub that led the Texans to a win in Denver against a much better defense. Not the Matt Schaub that brought the Texans back against Jacksonville. There is a disconnect between the Matt Schaub of the 1st 12 weeks and the Matt Schaub that ended the season. Everyone has their own opinions as to why. But to suggest that what we saw was "just Matt" is putting your head in the sand.

Like I said. In the final 4 weeks of the season, Matt did not play any differently than he did @ Jacksonville, @ NYJets, vs GB, & all those games were before November. Prior to the bye Matt Schaub had 4 excellent games & 3 wtf games.

In November, Matt played equally as bad against Chicago & Detroit. Two poor games in November two good games.

He played "well" in one game in December & poorly in 4

The only difference is that we made other excuses for five of the first 12 weeks.

I'd like to throw the Miami game in there as well as the Texans got booed at home for the lack-luster offense. But the defense turned it on & made a game out of it.

Truthfully, now that I look at it, it's easier for me to see (say) that Matt struggled with his foot all season long, not just there at the end. If I were to try to argue that the foot was/is a bigger problem than they are letting on.

But I'm not.

Mr teX
05-21-2013, 12:58 PM
49ers replaced Smith w/ Kaepernick- looks like success

Smith isn't replaced if he doesn't get hurt...

Seattle replaced Hasselbeck w/ Wilson- once again...looks like success.

Wilson wasn't even thought to be the starter going into camp ...that would be Matt Flynn whom they brought over from GB for a nice chunk of change. More than anything Carroll lucked up on Wilson.

Cincy replaced Palmer w/ Dalton- success yet again. Growing trend here.

Dalton is at best Schaub's equal. twice we've faced him with 2 different qb's and twice he's gone down with little to no resistance. Aside from that, Schaub's numbers across the board are better than his. Also, had you seen Palmer play recently? Dude was terrible. The Bengals only upgraded in the sense that they got a less TO prone qb for less money.

Dolphins draft Tannehill & the potential seems to be there.

Other people view potential as things you've yet to achieve. & thus far there is 0 reason to believe that Tannehill will be that much if at all better than what Schaub currently is at this point in his career.



The Raiders had a decent option in Palmer but they chose to break ties w/ someone they didn't feel was "their guy". Does not he was a disaster imo.

Which leads me to the Cardinals replacing Kolb w/ Palmer. Without a doubt a better option.
tallest midget philosophy at its finest right here.

If the jury is still out on Ponder, I very much believe the same applies to Locker.

1 guy has shown flashes and been to the playoffs...the other guy hasn't come close to doing anything.

Let's not forget the teams that have drafted QB's recently that many believe have potential & are sitting & learning in Denver & Tampa Bay for example. There are options & other teams have explored them w/ some success. Just because the Texans choose not to doesn't necessarily mean that absolutely nothing exist that could potentially replace Schaub. I'm not saying that all those listed could outperform Schaub if he returns to his old self, but the Schaub that finished the 2012 could easily be pushed by many of them imo.

Again, you've missed the point. Not only are the examples you pointed out weak, they still don't prove anything in your favor other than other teams being more willing to explore the possiblility of landing that franchise guy than the Texans are at this point....But what you're leaving out is that many of those other teams didn't have a bonafide starter-worthy qb in the 1st place...which is still why it's not the same situation as ours b/c we actually do have one.

Mr teX
05-21-2013, 01:18 PM
Kaepernick was drafted early behind an established starter was the point. They didn't sit on their hands bringing in late round picks & other teams cast offs who didnt seem to have much potential. Kaepernick had potential & the 49ers took him. Smart move & injury was exactly one of the reasons why you bring a player w/ his potential in. That & of course shaky play, which Smith has experienced in the past. Let's not act as if Smith was an All Pro future HOF'er & injury was the only way he was capable of being ousted.


Carroll spoke highly of Wilson very early in the offseason. Obviously he saw some potential & they drafted him early as well. We can't act as if we knew Carroll's & Seattle's intentions concerning Wilson. Assuming he was drafted early not to be given an opportunity seems a bit shortsighted & in hindsight obviously inaccurate.

Palmer did force his way out of Cincy, but in the end it was Cincy who held all the cards in that situation. Palmer would've had to retire if Cincy chose not to trade him. Cincy got Dalton & he has played well, leading them to 2 playoff appearences & showing the potential to keep growing & getting better.

All 3 were drafted due to shaky QB situations & all 3 teams have faired pretty well imo.

y act as if Smith had proven anything to that point to be even considered a competent starter? He was starting, but by most coaches and fans accounts, he was a bust and shouldn't have been starting. & Once again that's not the case with us. We have a competent starting qb and the SF situation with Kap is just different from our situation.

& even if i give you Cincy that's still only 3 teams out of 32. Hardly any kind of track record or stellar success rate to base getting rid of a competent starter in search of a franchise guy for.

tru80texan
05-21-2013, 01:19 PM
Again, you've missed the point. Not only are the examples you pointed out weak, they still don't prove anything in your favor other than other teams being more willing to explore the possiblility of landing that franchise guy than the Texans are at this point....But what you're leaving out is that many of those other teams didn't have a bonafide starter-worthy qb in the 1st place...which is still why it's not the same situation as ours b/c we actually do have one.

I don't think I've missed the point because I believe I have already stated that the Texans aren't in the same place because they are invested in Schaub & obviously have not given up on him based in their actions or lack thereof. I also stated earlier that I believe Schaub deserves the opportunity at redemption & expected it because it was roughly a hand full of games that he played poorly in. Hardly definitive sampling of nothing but poor play should he expected from him from here on out. My point was that IF the Texans did have major concerns then they have had options that they could've explored. There have been some successful alternatives other teams have drafted, so assuming Schaub is & was the the only successful option seems to be false, but as I've said before I did not expect the Texans to make a move at QB after 1 stint of poor play. Time will tell if a move will be needed in the near future. I personally don't know because I can't see the future as it seems other members on here can.

Smith was garbage before Harbaugh & after Harbaugh was average at best. Nothing more then a game manager. Assuming that Kaepernick wouldn't have had an opportunity to unseat him in the future w/out injury seems a bit silly.

Wilson took over in the preseason & drafting him in the 3rd round means somebody thought he had potential. You don't waste a 3rd rd pick on a player you believe is nothing more then a camp body imo. Did they luck out...possibly, but they took the risk & they seemed to have done well.

tru80texan
05-21-2013, 01:32 PM
y act as if Smith had proven anything to that point to be even considered a competent starter? He was starting, but by most coaches and fans accounts, he was a bust and shouldn't have been starting. & Once again that's not the case with us. We have a competent starting qb and the SF situation with Kap is just different from our situation.

& even if i give you Cincy that's still only 3 teams out of 32. Hardly any kind of track record or stellar success rate to base getting rid of a competent starter in search of a franchise guy for.

The reason it is only 3 out of 32 is pretty simple. Not all 32 teams are in search or in need of quality QB's. C'mon now. Trying to exaggerate your point doesn't make it legit. I merely mentioned teams that had some success in acquiring a QB as you chose to leave them off of your prior list. It was merely a rebuttal to show that not all of the teams in search of a QB failed to acquire a quality one as you were implying by only listing the unsuccessful searches & acquisitions by some teams. Once again, I do agree the Texans are not in the same boat but quality options behind Schaub could never hurt & I'm not referring to S. McGee.

Mr teX
05-21-2013, 02:05 PM
I don't think I've missed the point because I believe I have already stated that the Texans aren't in the same place because they are invested in Schaub & obviously have not given up on him based in their actions or lack thereof. I also stated earlier that I believe Schaub deserves the opportunity at redemption & expected it because it was roughly a hand full of games that he played poorly in. Hardly definitive sampling of nothing but poor play should he expected from him from here on out. My point was that IF the Texans did have major concerns then they have had options that they could've explored. There have been some successful alternatives other teams have drafted, so assuming Schaub is & was the the only successful option seems to be false, but as I've said before I did not expect the Texans to make a move at QB after 1 stint of poor play. Time will tell if a move will be needed in the near future. I personally don't know because I can't see the future as it seems other members on here can.

Smith was garbage before Harbaugh & after Harbaugh was average at best. Nothing more then a game manager. Assuming that Kaepernick wouldn't have had an opportunity to unseat him in the future w/out injury seems a bit silly.

Wilson took over in the preseason & drafting him in the 3rd round means somebody thought he had potential. You don't waste a 3rd rd pick on a player you believe is nothing more then a camp body imo. Did they luck out...possibly, but they took the risk & they seemed to have done well.

Hindsight is a helluva thing.

Harbaugh drafted Kap and brought in Scott Tolzien in the same year, 2010 i believe. he did this with Smith still on the roster. I think it's safe to say that Harbaugh was not going to let Smith get him fired & was fishing for anyone to eventually replace Smith... This isn't uncommon for new HC's to do b/c they want "their" guy.

Wilson on the other hand was different. He only fell b/c of his height..By all accounts he impressed the hell out of every coach and scout in the interview process and i speculate that if he ends up on any number of teams he's likely in the same position he is now. I'm only calling it mostly luck on Carroll's part b/c they'd just gave Flynn 30 million to come over. You don't make that move without thinking he's likely your starter. Also, if you look league wide, most players drafted in the 3rd aren't expected to become starters right away....let alone undersized qbs.

Mr teX
05-21-2013, 02:12 PM
The reason it is only 3 out of 32 is pretty simple. Not all 32 teams are in search or in need of quality QB's. C'mon now. Trying to exaggerate your point doesn't make it legit. I merely mentioned teams that had some success in acquiring a QB as you chose to leave them off of your prior list. It was merely a rebuttal to show that not all of the teams in search of a QB failed to acquire a quality one as you were implying by only listing the unsuccessful searches & acquisitions by some teams. Once again, I do agree the Texans are not in the same boat but quality options behind Schaub could never hurt & I'm not referring to S. McGee.

I'm not implying that all teams in search of a qb failed to acquire one..i clearly stated that teams more often than not fail at trying to acquire quality qb's than they do succeed.

Double Barrel
05-21-2013, 05:30 PM
If you're not trolling, what are you doing? What is all that all of that ^^ GARBAGE.

I think the word you are needing is "OBTUSE", not troll. :howdy:

kingtexan
05-21-2013, 07:31 PM
.

You're looking at exceptions...The rule however is teams more often than not fail in epic fashion when they go searching for that franchise guy to take them to the next level.....& save for the Bradys, Wilsons and Kapernicks, the overwhelming majority of guys considered to be great franchise altering qbs, almost always come in the 1st round....between picks 1-15..the area in the draft where we weren't this year and even if we were, you could argue we may have needed to address other positions before qb.

But for fun lets go back over the last 2 or so seasons and see how many teams attempted to address the position with actual talent as you say and see how many actually came out on top:

Jaguars - Gabbert replacing Gerrard.....trash maybe not, he has not had anything solid in the OC or HC department since being there so may turn it around

Titans - Locker replacing Collins/Young.....trash ridiculous, Locker is worse than Young and Collins at the end of his career?

Colts - Luck replacing Orlovsky/Manning.....looks like the real deal...but they had to get inside the top 5 in the draft to get him

Arizona - Kolb replacing Warner.....trash Kolb never had a Oline in AZ

Minny - Ponder replacing jackson....jury's still out no it isnt, Ponder is better, just needs more game time

Redskins - RG3 replacing Grossman/Beck...see the colts explanation

Chiefs - Cassel replacing Thigpen/Croyle/Quinn...Garbage, garbage and more garbage

Jets, Bills, Raiders and the Browns.....literally 1 disaster after another. Raiders had Palmer who is better IMO and certainly no worse than Matt. In fact their new MATT may very well be better than ours this season.

you can go on and on with at least a couple more teams and pretty soon you'd be at about 1/2 - 3/4 of the league.

It's not about redemption with Schaub; most of you guys have to know deep down that he's a good qb...the best we have on the roster. Plus he wasn't solely the reason we went south towards the end of the season last year. That was a total team fail

Thoughts.

tru80texan
05-21-2013, 10:06 PM
I think the word you are needing is "OBTUSE", not troll. :howdy:

And to think I thought the best word to describe those that regurgitate another's thoughts w/out offering their own to the subject would be "simpleton". :fingergun:

Double Barrel
05-22-2013, 10:27 AM
And to think I thought the best word to describe those that regurgitate another's thoughts w/out offering their own to the subject would be "simpleton".

In your mind, you're right, Skippy.

I did not know you were so sensitive as to be unable to handle basic critical analysis. You were clearly being obtuse. It's not an insult but rather an adjective.

Your constant attempts to build weak strawman arguments failed, and now you whine about it. How about trying to read what others write before engaging your desire to argue about things never said?

Are you one of the HT.com rejects? You sure act like it in this thread.

Mr teX
05-22-2013, 11:10 AM
Thoughts.

Clearly better? no. Ponder's numbers don't look all that much better than Jackson's the year he started the majority of games at qb for the vikes... That's not how i meant my comment anyway. i meant the jury is still out on whether or not Ponder is the long term answer they thought he could be when they drafted him.

Vance87
05-22-2013, 11:39 AM
Are you one of the HT.com rejects? You sure act like it in this thread.

Pump your brakes kid, I post on both forums, I'm not a reject. Although tru can be quite argumentative on both forums, maybe he's just an idealist.

Double Barrel
05-22-2013, 12:52 PM
Pump your brakes kid, I post on both forums, I'm not a reject. Although tru can be quite argumentative on both forums, maybe he's just an idealist.

lol @ "kid". Old enough to be your dad, sonny boy. :kitten:

I'm not stereotyping everyone at HT.com. But, it has been quite clear that they have lower standards than TT.com. Remember, we know that forum well, since we used to mod it, admins over here built it, and the entire history of that forum migrated to Texans Talk. I was a mod over there for awhile after the migration until I got tired of wading in the piss of the kiddie pool. Maybe it's changed since then...

And yeah, I've got it on good authority that he's a reject from HT.com. He's been kicked over there so tries his routine over here. Give him enough rope and he thinks he's a cowboy. Yeeehaw.

He can 'simpleton' me all he wants. His opinion is meaningless to me. The next time I care about what he has to say about anything will be the first time. I'll be surprised if he's even here by football season, so I have no desire to give respect when it's undeserved.

Vance87
05-22-2013, 01:43 PM
lol @ "kid". Old enough to be your dad, sonny boy. :kitten:

I'm not stereotyping everyone at HT.com. But, it has been quite clear that they have lower standards than TT.com. Remember, we know that forum well, since we used to mod it, admins over here built it, and the entire history of that forum migrated to Texans Talk. I was a mod over there for awhile after the migration until I got tired of wading in the piss of the kiddie pool. Maybe it's changed since then...

And yeah, I've got it on good authority that he's a reject from HT.com. He's been kicked over there so tries his routine over here. Give him enough rope and he thinks he's a cowboy. Yeeehaw.

He can 'simpleton' me all he wants. His opinion is meaningless to me. The next time I care about what he has to say about anything will be the first time. I'll be surprised if he's even here by football season, so I have no desire to give respect when it's undeserved.

That line was a quote from a movie...get with it old man! :kingkong:

Rey
05-22-2013, 01:56 PM
Seth Payne just mentioned Infantrycak (called him "Infantry C-A-K....whatever that means") because of the blurb in Texans chick's article which gave stats and analysis of Matt Schaub's deep throws in comparison to other QB's. He basically said that different offenses lend themselves to the deep ball more. He said Schaub could throw the deep ball ok, but it wasn't a strength of his game and this Shannahan style bootleg offense lends itself to high percentage deep balls but not a high frequency of them being throw...Which is pretty much exactly what I said a while back...

Not that Seth nor I are the be all end all, but I really just though it was cool that Cak got that mention based on TC's article...

tru80texan
05-24-2013, 11:13 AM
In your mind, you're right, Skippy.

I did not know you were so sensitive as to be unable to handle basic critical analysis. You were clearly being obtuse. It's not an insult but rather an adjective.

Your constant attempts to build weak strawman arguments failed, and now you whine about it. How about trying to read what others write before engaging your desire to argue about things never said?

Are you one of the HT.com rejects? You sure act like it in this thread.

lol @ "kid". Old enough to be your dad, sonny boy. :kitten:

I'm not stereotyping everyone at HT.com. But, it has been quite clear that they have lower standards than TT.com. Remember, we know that forum well, since we used to mod it, admins over here built it, and the entire history of that forum migrated to Texans Talk. I was a mod over there for awhile after the migration until I got tired of wading in the piss of the kiddie pool. Maybe it's changed since then...

And yeah, I've got it on good authority that he's a reject from HT.com. He's been kicked over there so tries his routine over here. Give him enough rope and he thinks he's a cowboy. Yeeehaw.

He can 'simpleton' me all he wants. His opinion is meaningless to me. The next time I care about what he has to say about anything will be the first time. I'll be surprised if he's even here by football season, so I have no desire to give respect when it's undeserved.

OBTUSE:
Adjective
Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
Difficult to understand.

How is the above not considered an insult? Looks like a weak attempt as an insult towards me simply based on my disbelief of the theory that an unreported injury was the sole cause of Schaub's poor performances. A belief that others on here have expressed as well, but yet I'm the one who is being considered "obtuse" in your opinion. I'm simply stating facts when is say nothing has supported such a thought & repeating it & believing it seems a bit far fetched at this time. If I'm the one dealing in facts then it seems your use of "obtuse" seems inaccurate & being used for the wrong side of the debate to say the least.

I realize the TT "brotherhood" is strong amongst some of y'all, but the silly pissing matches that consist of insults seems a bit childish simply because we have a difference in opinions on a subject that is obviously highly debatable. I haven't complained or whined, as you falsey proclaimed, about those that didn't agree w/ me, all I have done is stated my case & the information I have to support my belief. A belief I might add that others members have agreed with.

I understand I am new to this site, but that doesn't mean that I can't express my opinions about the Texans because it isn't inline w/ the TT "brotherhood". I have enjoyed the conversations here & admit some of them go a bit deeper then those on HT.com, which is one aspect that I appreciate about TT, but assuming & acting as if the opinions of long time members are the only ones that are correct seems a bit shortsighted. Honestly, I'm not concerned w/ your opinion about my thoughts because I put no more credit into yours then you do into mine, but I would hope that we could end our disagreements w/ a simple "agree to disagree" w/out this back & forth pissing match stuff because it is weak, tiresome, & juvenile. I do apologize to the other members for engaging in this one for so long as it is obvious many of y'all will stick together regardless & I too will not change my mind. So I simply say...I politely agree to disagree w/ you.

As far as being an HT.com reject, that is incorrect to some degree. Did I receive a timeout from HT.com...yes, but I admitted that here so it was wasn't top secret nor did you need to go to your "insider" to obtain that info. You have zero details or knowledge concerning the situation, so i will leave it at that. I do thank you for having enough interest in me to discuss me w/ others outside of this MB though. And to think I thought you thought I was meaningless...:) Have a nice day!

Texn4life
05-24-2013, 02:14 PM
I'm only going to say that I understand why people feel like Schaub was hurting or injured at the end of the year, and I understand why people would have doubts about any injury and just feel like he was playing poorly. I don't see what the big deal is honestly.

Lucky
05-24-2013, 05:07 PM
I don't see what the big deal is honestly.
It's really not. No matter what reasons there were for Schaub's late season play, he has to play better in 2013 for the Texans to be title contenders. He doesn't have to be Tom Brady or Drew Brees. The Matt Schaub of 2009-mid 2012 would be OK.

Double Barrel
05-24-2013, 05:46 PM
OBTUSE:
Adjective
Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
Difficult to understand.

How is the above not considered an insult? Looks like a weak attempt as an insult towards me simply based on my disbelief of the theory that an unreported injury was the sole cause of Schaub's poor performances. A belief that others on here have expressed as well, but yet I'm the one who is being considered "obtuse" in your opinion. I'm simply stating facts when is say nothing has supported such a thought & repeating it & believing it seems a bit far fetched at this time. If I'm the one dealing in facts then it seems your use of "obtuse" seems inaccurate & being used for the wrong side of the debate to say the least.

*sigh*

Alright, I'm going to waste a few minutes of my time here... :fingergun:

My description of your attitude was not meant to insult you. You are free to take it that way, but that was not my intention.

The point of the use of the word "obtuse" was very specific. You seem either unable or unwilling to comprehend what others are telling you.

Nobody is claiming ultimate insider knowledge of this organization. However, if you took the time to actually comprehend the knowledge and information being presented here by very qualified people, you might have a pleasant conversation. Even if you disagree, the point is to not attempt to disrespect or belittle anyone that you do not agree with.

You may not see that in yourself, but others do.

I realize the TT "brotherhood" is strong amongst some of y'all, but the silly pissing matches that consist of insults seems a bit childish simply because we have a difference in opinions on a subject that is obviously highly debatable. I haven't complained or whined, as you falsey proclaimed, about those that didn't agree w/ me, all I have done is stated my case & the information I have to support my belief. A belief I might add that others members have agreed with.

You can perceive a "brotherhood" all you desire, but the reality is that many of us are friends outside of this forum and we all share a common passion as Texans fans.

I do not do pissing matches and I do not neg rep folks. You are free to investigate the last 9 years of history in this forum and see that I am fairly consistent in that regard.

I'm not tooting a horn, but rather pointing out that I'm a reasonable guy and have no problem with disagreements.

I understand I am new to this site, but that doesn't mean that I can't express my opinions about the Texans because it isn't inline w/ the TT "brotherhood". I have enjoyed the conversations here & admit some of them go a bit deeper then those on HT.com, which is one aspect that I appreciate about TT, but assuming & acting as if the opinions of long time members are the only ones that are correct seems a bit shortsighted. Honestly, I'm not concerned w/ your opinion about my thoughts because I put no more credit into yours then you do into mine, but I would hope that we could end our disagreements w/ a simple "agree to disagree" w/out this back & forth pissing match stuff because it is weak, tiresome, & juvenile. I do apologize to the other members for engaging in this one for so long as it is obvious many of y'all will stick together regardless & I too will not change my mind. So I simply say...I politely agree to disagree w/ you.


Being a noob to the site has nothing to do with it. We openly welcome new members, as most of the time it is someone like you that shares our passion for the Texans.

Nobody has a superior opinion based on post count, join date, or rep.

However, there are a lot of professionals on this forum who have quality opinions and perspectives. I have learned so much over the years from these folks, and continue to learn, that over time you begin to see value in these various backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives.

As far as being an HT.com reject, that is incorrect to some degree. Did I receive a timeout from HT.com...yes, but I admitted that here so it was wasn't top secret nor did you need to go to your "insider" to obtain that info. You have zero details or knowledge concerning the situation, so i will leave it at that. I do thank you for having enough interest in me to discuss me w/ others outside of this MB though. And to think I thought you thought I was meaningless...:) Have a nice day!

I was really just yanking your chain about being an HT.com reject. Just a gut feeling that I had when reading your posting style. I did not seek out the information or background check your IP address. Some folks did come to me and confirm it, but not because I asked for it.

My point is that you are welcomed to stay here and become a valued member of the forum. I do not hold grudges and have no personal agenda. I call things like I see it, and when reading this thread, I got a vibe from you that you were unwilling to compromise and started a downward spiral.

It's all good, though. I would not bother to write these words if I thought you were a worthless troll, fwiw. Not that you need or want my validation, but just the same, I take the time to write back out of respect to another member of this forum.

Texn4life
05-24-2013, 05:52 PM
It's really not. No matter what reasons there were for Schaub's late season play, he has to play better in 2013 for the Texans to be title contenders. He doesn't have to be Tom Brady or Drew Brees. The Matt Schaub of 2009-mid 2012 would be OK.

Now this is something everyone should be able to agree on. Hell, the early season Schuab last year is good enough to win a championship with.

When he's on his game he's as efficient as anyone other than maybe the top 3 QBs in the game. We need to improve in the red zone this year, and Matt needs to get back to not turning the ball over. He needs to re-watch the first 3 quarters of the Denver game last year. That's how we need him to play with the exception of the bad INT at the end of the 1st half. I'll even take a bonehead pick like that if he's out there getting it done like he was the rest of the game.

thunderkyss
05-24-2013, 06:02 PM
*sigh*

Originally Posted by tru80texan
As far as being an HT.com reject, that is incorrect to some degree. Did I receive a timeout from HT.com...yes, but I admitted that here so it was wasn't top secret nor did you need to go to your "insider" to obtain that info.

I was really just yanking your chain about being an HT.com reject. Just a gut feeling that I had when reading your posting style.

:popcorn:

thunderkyss
05-24-2013, 06:09 PM
Now this is something everyone should be able to agree on. Hell, the early season Schuab last year is good enough to win a championship with.

When he's on his game he's as efficient as anyone other than maybe the top 3 QBs in the game. We need to improve in the red zone this year, and Matt needs to get back to not turning the ball over. He needs to re-watch the first 3 quarters of the Denver game last year. That's how we need him to play with the exception of the bad INT at the end of the 1st half. I'll even take a bonehead pick like that if he's out there getting it done like he was the rest of the game.

Outside of Denver.... which games do you think Matt performed like a franchise QB?

I used to think the same thing. I never liked him, or his style of QB, but I accepted the fact that he was one of the true starting QBs in the league. But last year, he was in a funk that lasted all season long.

I think there was some holding back by Kubiak, but I "feel" like there was some holding back by Schaub as well. We were overly conservative & it just felt like a different offense all together.

I mean we booed them in week 1...... but won the game by 20.

The Pencil Neck
05-24-2013, 06:21 PM
Outside of Denver.... which games do you think Matt performed like a franchise QB?

I used to think the same thing. I never liked him, or his style of QB, but I accepted the fact that he was one of the true starting QBs in the league. But last year, he was in a funk that lasted all season long.

I think there was some holding back by Kubiak, but I "feel" like there was some holding back by Schaub as well. We were overly conservative & it just felt like a different offense all together.

I mean we booed them in week 1...... but won the game by 20.

I think that last bit is really all you need to know.

Through the early part of the season, I felt like the offense was playing a good conservative strategy. Good winning football.

To me, that was franchise quarterback football, championship football. Not flashy. Not gaudy. Just get the win and move on.

Texn4life
05-24-2013, 06:28 PM
Outside of Denver.... which games do you think Matt performed like a franchise QB?

I used to think the same thing. I never liked him, or his style of QB, but I accepted the fact that he was one of the true starting QBs in the league. But last year, he was in a funk that lasted all season long.

I think there was some holding back by Kubiak, but I "feel" like there was some holding back by Schaub as well. We were overly conservative & it just felt like a different offense all together.

I mean we booed them in week 1...... but won the game by 20.

I honestly can't say I think he's a franchise QB. The best word I can use to describe him early in the season is "efficient". Efficient was good enough for us to start out the season on fire though. Even though I can't say he was playing well he wasn't turning the ball over and that's what drives me crazy as a fan.

The question then becomes can we win the Super Bowl with an non-franchise, efficient QB? It hasn't been done in over a decade so I'm not really sure. We really just need him to be playing well at the right time. I highlight the Denver game because that's probably when he was at his best. He was good against Jax and Detroit too, but to me those games were different because we were playing catchup.

The best I've seen Matt and this offense was that stretch of games before he was hurt against Tampa. Somehow we need to figure out how to get back to that.

infantrycak
05-24-2013, 06:49 PM
But last year, he was in a funk that lasted all season long.

That flies in the face of the facts. In the first 12 games Schaub was just shy of a 100 QBrating. In the last 4 games he plummeted over 20 points

I mean we booed them in week 1...... but won the game by 20.

If by we you mean drunk idiots then that can never be stopped and is hardly a good measuring stick.

thunderkyss
05-24-2013, 07:26 PM
That flies in the face of the facts. In the first 12 games Schaub was just shy of a 100 QBrating. In the last 4 games he plummeted over 20 points


He had a 102 QB rating against Miami, but I don't think he played particularly well. Efficient, yes.

He also had 4 games with a QBR under 80 in the first 12 games. Including two games below 60


If by we you mean drunk idiots then that can never be stopped and is hardly a good measuring stick.

Not settling for a field goal after the defense puts you inside the 10 yard line would go a long way.

thunderkyss
05-26-2013, 04:02 PM
Slow day..... so I'm lurking on a Ravens' board (http://russellstreetreport.com/forum/showthread.php?109067-Falcons-Board-still-debating-Flacco-vs-Ryan-as-if-it-made-any-difference-at-all). Talk about RodneyDangerfield.......

NFL.com has ranked QBs and I think they are under rating Joe Flacco at #13 behind some QBs like Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, RG3, Colin Kapernick(?), Russel Wilson(?!), and Cam Newton(WTF!).

They have Joe Flacco in front of Tony Romo, Matthew Stafford, and Jay Cutler all listed as Solid Dudes. I don't mind Joe Flacco listed with these four players, but behind the QB that lost the SB? Behind Cam Newton? Puh-lease!

I know it's just someone's opinion as to where all of these guys are ranked, but I expect more from the NFL site.

Schaub isn't in their conversation at all.

Not even a, "Well he's ranked better than that Schaub guy. They mentioned Romo for Christ sakes.

chenjy9
05-27-2013, 03:52 PM
Slow day..... so I'm lurking on a Ravens' board (http://russellstreetreport.com/forum/showthread.php?109067-Falcons-Board-still-debating-Flacco-vs-Ryan-as-if-it-made-any-difference-at-all). Talk about RodneyDangerfield.......



Schaub isn't in their conversation at all.

Not even a, "Well he's ranked better than that Schaub guy. They mentioned Romo for Christ sakes.

Schaub is by all accounts, not prolific and underwhelming. Going by his recent extension, I consider him overpaid/overrated as well. Most fans outside of the Texans probably never heard of him or cared to hear about him. It's just the Texans QB.

Rey
05-27-2013, 04:05 PM
I think that last bit is really all you need to know.

Through the early part of the season, I felt like the offense was playing a good conservative strategy. Good winning football.

To me, that was franchise quarterback football, championship football. Not flashy. Not gaudy. Just get the win and move on.

Couldn't disagree more. Texans were playing poorly offensively. 3 and outs aren't conservative and they were visibly upset with the way things were going. They even said in press conferences that they were t happy with how they played.

Texans offense may have put up some good numbers, but they underachieved last year. They'll be the first to tell you that. They didn't suck, but not sucking isn't the goal anymore. If our aim is winning a Super Bowl, we need to forget about what we used to be. We can no longer compare this team to the old texans. The measuring stick has gone higher. The goals are different. With the players and pro bowlers we have offensively and everyone was healthy, we should dominate defenses. Doing ok, not looking so bad, doing enough to get by is not cool anymore. Especially in today's nfl where the rules favor the offenses.

Offensively our goal should be to come out and impose our offensive will on MOST teams we face. That doesn't mean Schaub has to be Brady, what it means is that as a total offense we need to be right up there or better than the top offenses in the league. There really is 0 excuse for us not to be.

What you're describing as an offense is what some mediocre, borderline team needs to do. Some sloppy offensive team.

Screw that. Our offense needs to come out, set the tone, let teams know that they'll have to put some points up today and let our defense play aggressive.

Rey
05-27-2013, 04:13 PM
Schaub is by all accounts, not prolific and underwhelming. Going by his recent extension, I consider him overpaid/overrated as well. Most fans outside of the Texans probably never heard of him or cared to hear about him. It's just the Texans QB.

I think Hopkins is going to help Schaub out tremendously. I don't think he's the type of qb that is going to make lesser players look good. Or carry an offense to sustained success. But I do think if the pieces are in place around him he can be good enough.

Eventually I'd like to replace him with someone with more ability, but he's a good player. Chad Pennington type player.

The Pencil Neck
05-27-2013, 04:40 PM
Couldn't disagree more. Texans were playing poorly offensively. 3 and outs aren't conservative and they were visibly upset with the way things were going. They even said in press conferences that they were t happy with how they played.

Texans offense may have put up some good numbers, but they underachieved last year. They'll be the first to tell you that. They didn't suck, but not sucking isn't the goal anymore. If our aim is winning a Super Bowl, we need to forget about what we used to be. We can no longer compare this team to the old texans. The measuring stick has gone higher. The goals are different. With the players and pro bowlers we have offensively and everyone was healthy, we should dominate defenses. Doing ok, not looking so bad, doing enough to get by is not cool anymore. Especially in today's nfl where the rules favor the offenses.

Offensively our goal should be to come out and impose our offensive will on MOST teams we face. That doesn't mean Schaub has to be Brady, what it means is that as a total offense we need to be right up there or better than the top offenses in the league. There really is 0 excuse for us not to be.

What you're describing as an offense is what some mediocre, borderline team needs to do. Some sloppy offensive team.

Screw that. Our offense needs to come out, set the tone, let teams know that they'll have to put some points up today and let our defense play aggressive.

You mean... like the Ravens?

Seriously, dude. Through the first half of the season, we were killing people. We beat 4 of our first 8 opponents by 20+ points. We were averaging almost 30 points a game while allowing our opponents to average about 17 points a game.

That's some good damned football right there. That's championship play.

Could we have played better? Yeah? So? No team plays perfect.

Now, take a look at the last few SB winners. Did they put up the kind of numbers you're talking about? Uh... no.

One of the things that irks me is this belief that you can only win the Super Bowl if you play a perfect season. Where your offense has to come out screaming every game and have no 3 and outs and you can never punt. That's not championship football, that's fantasy football. That's Madden football.

chenjy9
05-27-2013, 05:08 PM
I think Hopkins is going to help Schaub out tremendously. I don't think he's the type of qb that is going to make lesser players look good. Or carry an offense to sustained success. But I do think if the pieces are in place around him he can be good enough.

Eventually I'd like to replace him with someone with more ability, but he's a good player. Chad Pennington type player.

He's definitely a good QB and we can be in a much worse situation. Something about other QB's scrambling for first downs or keeping the play alive for something to develop downfield makes me look back at Schaub in disgust though...

Rey
05-28-2013, 08:42 AM
You mean... like the Ravens?

No. The Ravens didn't have the offensive ability we had. Schaub has been a better QB from a production standpoint that Flacco. The Texans offense overall has been more productive.

No one said that the team had to have a perfect season. What are you even talking about there?

I'm disputing a very particular point, which was the team playing conservatively early on offensively because it was winning games. I disagree. I don't think they were intentionally conservative...I think they were underachieving....

ObsiWan
05-28-2013, 10:34 AM
He's definitely a good QB and we can be in a much worse situation. Something about other QB's scrambling for first downs or keeping the play alive for something to develop downfield makes me look back at Schaub in disgust though...

You mean like Cam Newton...? He finished 6-10 two years running. Stodgy old Schaub finished 10-6 and 12-4 over that same period.

Just saying neither Tom Brady nor Peyton nor Eli are your basic "scramble around keep the play alive" guys either; at least not in the same sense C. Kaepernick, Russell Wilson, and R.G.III (and the aforementioned Newton) are perceived to be.

I definitely recognize - and appreciate - the highlight reel capacity of those younger QBs...
but
I'll take lots of "conservative", stodgy, old, blah wins, with repeated helping of playoffs, over highlight segments, thank you.

But that's just me and, admittedly, I'm an old fart who wasn't raised on Madden.

htownfan32
05-28-2013, 01:13 PM
You mean like Cam Newton...? He finished 6-10 two years running. Stodgy old Schaub finished 10-6 and 12-4 over that same period.

Just saying neither Tom Brady nor Peyton nor Eli aren't "scramble around keep the play alive" guys either; at least not in the same sense C. Kaepernick, Russell Wilson, and R.G.III (and the aforementioned Newton) are perceived to be.

I definitely recognize - and appreciate - the highlight reel capacity of those younger QBs...
but
I'll take lots of "conservative", stodgy, old, blah wins, with repeated helping of playoffs, over highlight segments, thank you.

But that's just me and, admittedly, I'm an old fart who wasn't raised on Madden.

Even more so than this, I don't understand why the blame of the offensive struggles of our team is heaped upon Schaub. Our offense is run first - when the run sucks, everything else falls apart. Schaub does his best when we can't run, our weakness at the WR position is shown. We can't revert to the pass like we did in 2010 when Schaub led so many comebacks (that our defense let down). I don't know whether he was rusty coming off the foot injury and maybe a full offseason of working out will help, idk. But I wouldn't be surprised if Schaub is better this season with a full football offseason to prepare.

chenjy9
05-28-2013, 01:52 PM
You mean like Cam Newton...? He finished 6-10 two years running. Stodgy old Schaub finished 10-6 and 12-4 over that same period.

Just saying neither Tom Brady nor Peyton nor Eli are your basic "scramble around keep the play alive" guys either; at least not in the same sense C. Kaepernick, Russell Wilson, and R.G.III (and the aforementioned Newton) are perceived to be.

I definitely recognize - and appreciate - the highlight reel capacity of those younger QBs...
but
I'll take lots of "conservative", stodgy, old, blah wins, with repeated helping of playoffs, over highlight segments, thank you.

But that's just me and, admittedly, I'm an old fart who wasn't raised on Madden.

I really don't agree with the Newton comment. He is 6-10 because he is not on a very good team. If he was on a team like Texans and Schaub was on the Panthers, I am personally sure the story would be very different.

I never said anything about a running QB or even a mobile QB. I understand Schaub's limitations and I am not asking for him to be able to rush like Wilson, Newton, Kaepernick, or RG3. I do expect him to not immediately check down or throw it away when he is pushed out of the pocket.

Brady, Manning, ect are top tier QB's. If we had one of those guys, we wouldn't be complaining about our QB situation now would we? Schaub is like Manning Lite v0.00000000001. He sucks compares to top tier QB's and that's why many want better.

I don't care about highlights, I care about wins. Throwing it away or checking down on a 3rd down is not going to win us games. My complaint is as that as soon as Schaub is forced out of the pocket, the play is almost always dead to us unless someone is able to bail him out.

First, I did not and do not play Madden. Secondly, let me ask you... where has our conservative QB and play calling gotten us? Exactly as far as we got last year with a rookie QB and desperate (IMHO) play calling.

Now, I know that this is not entirely Schaub's fault that our team completely broke down down the stretch. It is also not his fault that he is significantly overpaid. What is his fault however, is that we can't count on him to carry us to a W if we need him, well not consistently at least. As a highly paid player in a leader position, that really bothers me. Add on to the fact that he is old and capped out in improvements, he will not be getting any better, only worse. Point is, we need a QB that can scramble WHEN NEEDED to really make our offense shine, not an over the hill player who at best can only be counted on to manage the game and hopefully not screw up.

The Pencil Neck
05-28-2013, 03:34 PM
I don't care about highlights, I care about wins. Throwing it away or checking down on a 3rd down is not going to win us games. My complaint is as that as soon as Schaub is forced out of the pocket, the play is almost always dead to us unless someone is able to bail him out.


You say that checking down on 3rd down is not going to get us wins and yet, we went 12-4 last year.

This is what I'm saying... what you believe it takes to win is wrong.

Now... I expect you're going to say that "Yeah... well... that was in the regular season and we lost in the post-season. WE ARE LOSERS IN THE POST SEASON! WE CAN'T WIN WITH SCHAUB WHEN IT COUNTS BECAUSE HE'S MANNING LITE! WAH WAH WAH. WE CAN ONLY WIN IF WE'RE THE GREATEST EVAR!"

:overreact:

But history does not support you or your belief. You can win a SB with a QB who's not elite. (Unless of course, your definition of elite includes winning a SB.)

chenjy9
05-28-2013, 03:41 PM
You say that checking down on 3rd down is not going to get us wins and yet, we went 12-4 last year.

This is what I'm saying... what you believe it takes to win is wrong.

Now... I expect you're going to say that "Yeah... well... that was in the regular season and we lost in the post-season. WE ARE LOSERS IN THE POST SEASON! WE CAN'T WIN WITH SCHAUB WHEN IT COUNTS BECAUSE HE'S MANNING LITE! WAH WAH WAH. WE CAN ONLY WIN IF WE'RE THE GREATEST EVAR!"

:overreact:

But history does not support you or your belief. You can win a SB with a QB who's not elite. (Unless of course, your definition of elite includes winning a SB.)

We did not go 12-4 because of Schaub IMO. I believe we went 12-4 IN SPITE OF Schaub. That is probably the key difference between how I see things and how you see things. I saw us (Foster and D specifically) CARRY Schaub to a winning season. I went him, when the game is on the line, to NOT check down and try to develop other options. You can be satisfied with having a QB like Schaub, but honestly I don't have any confidence in him.

Also, when did I ever say we needed a HoF QB to win? What I do believe is, we will never win a SB with Schaub under center, unless our team carries him and his mistakes, because I cannot count on Schaub to not screw things up somewhere. I am not advocating that we dump him now, but I am definitely hoping the FO replaces him or looks for his replacement sooner than later.

PS

To further elucidate my point, at no point during games do I ever find myself thinking "It's OK, Schaub will be able to win this for us" or "Schaub will be able to close this game out for us." When we are close in games and not able to grind out the clock with our run game, you know what my thought is every time we march Schaub back on the field? "God I hope he doesn't eff this up!" How about when we get to 3rd and long? "Unless AJ or Foster bails us out, we are looking at another kick or field go." I don't get positive feelings or even expectations of Schaub and that really concerns me personally going into the future. Maybe some of you are still living in the nightmare of Carr and Schaub just simply seems like a godsend to you. For me however, he is one of our few weak links on this team as a starter.

silvrhand
05-28-2013, 04:11 PM
But history does not support you or your belief. You can win a SB with a QB who's not elite. (Unless of course, your definition of elite includes winning a SB.)

100% disagree, history does prove that you need a very GOOD QB to win the superbowl.. look at the last 20 of them, only 2 are not HOF material, and of those two both have stupid record defenses. The 2000 Ravens, and the only team to have 3 defensive touchdowns in a superbowl.

Super Bowl XXVII - Troy Aikman
Super Bowl XXVIII - Troy Aikman
Super Bowl XXIX - Steve Young
Super Bowl XXX - Troy Aikman
Super Bowl XXXI - Brett Favre
Super Bowl XXXII - John Elway
Super Bowl XXXIII - John Elway
Super Bowl XXXIV - Kurt Warner
Super Bowl XXXV - Trent Dilfer
Super Bowl XXXVI - Tom Brady
Super Bowl XXXVII - Brad Johnson
Super Bowl XXXVIII - Tom Brady
Super Bowl XXXIX - Tom Brady
Super Bowl XL - Ben Roethlisberger
Super Bowl XLI - Peyton Manning
Super Bowl XLII - Eli Manning
Super Bowl XLIII - Ben Roethlisberger
Super Bowl XLIV - Drew Brees
Super Bowl XLV - Aaron Rodgers

The Pencil Neck
05-28-2013, 04:28 PM
100% disagree, history does prove that you need a very GOOD QB to win the superbowl.. look at the last 20 of them, only 2 are not HOF material..


Several things... ELITE is different than a GOOD QB. And you can get into the HOF even if you're not an Elite QB. And, as I said, there are some QBs that people consider "elite" or whatever ONLY because they've won some SBs. I don't.

Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, Joe Flacco are NOT elite QBs. Brees has good years and he's got bad years. Same with Kurt Warner. I don't consider those guys elite, although Brees was in the discussion for a year or two.

I'll give you Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Elway, and Favre. I think Aikman is a borderline case.

At this point right now, I consider Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers elite. No one else.

infantrycak
05-28-2013, 04:38 PM
100% disagree, history does prove that you need a very GOOD QB to win the superbowl.. look at the last 20 of them, only 2 are not HOF material, and of those two both have stupid record defenses. The 2000 Ravens, and the only team to have 3 defensive touchdowns in a superbowl.

Put aside Schaub. A lot of this is chicken and egg - QB's are HOF material in large part because they win one or more SB's regardless of their merit in those SB's. Big Ben was miserable in two wins. Aikman (and I was/am a Cowboys fan) was the epitome of precision game manager (frankly Aikman is what I think Kubiak wants out of Schaub). Elway should never be brought up for this assertion since in his heyday he couldn't put the team on his shoulders and win - he got his wins off the team. Tom Brady's 1st win was on the team not him.

The Pencil Neck
05-28-2013, 04:39 PM
. Maybe some of you are still living in the nightmare of Carr and Schaub just simply seems like a godsend to you. For me however, he is one of our few weak links on this team as a starter.

I think you're still scarred from the Carr nightmare and because of that, you expect the worst.

We can be down 2 scores going in to the 4th quarter and I still expect to win.

chenjy9
05-28-2013, 04:48 PM
I think you're still scarred from the Carr nightmare and because of that, you expect the worst.

We can be down 2 scores going in to the 4th quarter and I still expect to win.

Nah, it is because Schaub has not done anything to show me that we can count on him as a field leader for the team. I wasn't as much scarred by Carr as much as disgusted. I gave up completely on Carr. It was a given that Carr couldn't find his way to a W if the other team didn't slap him silly with it and even then, it was a toss up. A big part of that had to do with our lack of O-Line, but Carr was definitely less than mediocre even before becoming a shell-shocked version of his previous mediocre self.

thunderkyss
05-28-2013, 04:53 PM
Put aside Schaub. A lot of this is chicken and egg - QB's are HOF material in large part because they win one or more SB's regardless of their merit in those SB's. Big Ben was miserable in two wins. Aikman (and I was/am a Cowboys fan) was the epitome of precision game manager (frankly Aikman is what I think Kubiak wants out of Schaub). Elway should never be brought up for this assertion since in his heyday he couldn't put the team on his shoulders and win - he got his wins off the team. Tom Brady's 1st win was on the team not him.

I think Tom's first two were on his team. He was not a very good QB back then. He was very efficient & he took care of the ball. He was on a very good team with very good coaches.

He's a much better QB now than he was then. But, he hasn't been able to win a SuperBowl since he's been able to put a team on his shoulders.

thunderkyss
05-28-2013, 04:57 PM
We can be down 2 scores going in to the 4th quarter and I still expect to win.

Before last year, I thought the same way. I'd seen them do it.

But last year, several games, I kept waiting for them to turn it on & they never did. Several games last year, we were waiting for them to go into hurry up mode & it just didn't happen.

I know there must have been reasons they never turned it on & I'm always looking for those reasons, but I never came across anything that made sense to me.

& you know me, it doesn't take a lot for me to make sense out of something.

ASidd_1990
05-28-2013, 04:57 PM
ProFootballMock is wrong for this one.

http://profootballmock.com/aaron-rodgers-role-on-the-office-prompts-a-wave-of-qb-tv-cameos/

•TOM BRADY/MATT SCHAUB: Brady eagerly agrees to bed Matt Schaub’s wife, professional cheerleader Laurie Schaub, on the ABC reality series “Celebrity Wife Swap.” Controversy erupts however, when Giselle Bündchen refuses to reciprocate by declaring that she will not go anywhere near the aesthetically challenged Houston QB. Spoiler alert: Brady eventually beds both women simultaneously while Schaub weeps quietly in another room.

:toropalm:

Double Barrel
05-28-2013, 06:20 PM
I think Tom's first two were on his team. He was not a very good QB back then. He was very efficient & he took care of the ball. He was on a very good team with very good coaches.


'eh, gotta' disagree a little. Yeah, great teams, without a doubt. And yeah, won on a Vinatieri kick.

However, it was a tie game (17-17) with 1:30 on the clock and no timeouts.

Brady nailed 5 of 6 passes to move the ball down the field 53 yards, setting up that FG attempt.

It took a clutch QB to make the plays in a minute and a half, under pressure of a monumental game (dude wasn't even a starter at the beginning of the season), to be a big part of winning it. That's why he won the SB MVP, in spite of stats. It was his performance.

Bringing it back to Schaub, I do not have the confidence in him that he could make this drive to set up a game winning FG. And that, in my mind, is what separates good from great.

chenjy9
05-28-2013, 06:31 PM
Bringing it back to Schaub, I do not have the confidence in him that he could make this drive to set up a game winning FG. And that, in my mind, is what separates good from great.

I wouldn't quite say "good" from "great" but rather "good" from "very good" Great QB's are able to consistently carry the team on their backs when asked to and establish confidence in players and fans that he can and will when needed. Very good QB's consistently do what their team needs to win and can be counted on to not mess up usually when pressured. Good QB's are QB's that can usually help their team not lose by typically doing their jobs correctly.

When Schaub is pressured mentally, I anticipate failure from him. I anticipate underthrown passes interceptions. When we are done or need a clutch performance, I never look to Schaub or even consider him outside a desperate prayer of "Please don't screw up Schaub!" He is just far too limited to begin with and IMO, very weak mentally. Basically, to me he is not a leader on the field, but another soldier.

ObsiWan
05-29-2013, 03:49 AM
I really don't agree with the Newton comment. He is 6-10 because he is not on a very good team. If he was on a team like Texans and Schaub was on the Panthers, I am personally sure the story would be very different.

I never said anything about a running QB or even a mobile QB. I understand Schaub's limitations and I am not asking for him to be able to rush like Wilson, Newton, Kaepernick, or RG3. I do expect him to not immediately check down or throw it away when he is pushed out of the pocket.

Brady, Manning, ect are top tier QB's. If we had one of those guys, we wouldn't be complaining about our QB situation now would we? Schaub is like Manning Lite v0.00000000001. He sucks compares to top tier QB's and that's why many want better.

I don't care about highlights, I care about wins. Throwing it away or checking down on a 3rd down is not going to win us games. My complaint is as that as soon as Schaub is forced out of the pocket, the play is almost always dead to us unless someone is able to bail him out.

First, I did not and do not play Madden. Secondly, let me ask you... where has our conservative QB and play calling gotten us? Exactly as far as we got last year with a rookie QB and desperate (IMHO) play calling.

Now, I know that this is not entirely Schaub's fault that our team completely broke down down the stretch. It is also not his fault that he is significantly overpaid. What is his fault however, is that we can't count on him to carry us to a W if we need him, well not consistently at least. As a highly paid player in a leader position, that really bothers me. Add on to the fact that he is old and capped out in improvements, he will not be getting any better, only worse. Point is, we need a QB that can scramble WHEN NEEDED to really make our offense shine, not an over the hill player who at best can only be counted on to manage the game and hopefully not screw up.

Well, since all the arguments I was going to make regarding Schaub vs. other perceived "elite" QBs have already been pointed out by TPN, I-Cak, and TK, there's no need to repeat them.

I will add this. Schaub was picked by Kubiak to run his system. An offense that does not rely on stellar QB play to produce wins. Up in Denver, Kubiak watched for years as one of the premier QBs of his time failed time after time to win a championship. There's no doubt, I would hope, that Elway had all the tools; laser-rocket arm, elusiveness to extend plays with his legs, and the steely nerve and focus to bring his team back from behind for wins time and time again.
BUT that was not enough.
Until Elway (and by association, Kubiak) got a "horse" at RB that the other team had to respect he couldn't get a ring. Elway had had solid defenses before but never that signature running game. Three trips to the Super Bowl, three beatdowns. Only one of which was against an elite-level QB, Joe Montana in SB XXIV. The other two were against Phil Simms and Doug Williams. You tell me if either of those guys are elite QBs or simply efficient system guys.

I bring this up because I think that experience gave Kubiak the mindset that a balanced attack featuring solid running attack in combo with a respectable passing attack is more apt to lead to championships than an elite stud at QB.

I will say this, the QB in Kubiak's system has to be smart enough to recognize mismatches and effective enough to get the ball to the guys who can make plays and exploit the mismatches. When Schaub is on his game, he's that guy. When he isn't... he does what Kubiak calls "leaving plays/points on the field". That kinda crap is what we saw from Schaub in Dec/Jan and has to be minimized or Schaub will be replaced.
You can count on that.

silvrhand
05-29-2013, 08:09 AM
Put aside Schaub. A lot of this is chicken and egg - QB's are HOF material in large part because they win one or more SB's regardless of their merit in those SB's. Big Ben was miserable in two wins. Aikman (and I was/am a Cowboys fan) was the epitome of precision game manager (frankly Aikman is what I think Kubiak wants out of Schaub). Elway should never be brought up for this assertion since in his heyday he couldn't put the team on his shoulders and win - he got his wins off the team. Tom Brady's 1st win was on the team not him.

But I would wager to bet many of us would have rather have most of the QBs listed above than Schaub.

thunderkyss
05-29-2013, 09:31 AM
But I would wager to bet many of us would have rather have most of the QBs listed above than Schaub.

I'm thinking we're going to win it all this year & Schaub will be considered elite.

The Pencil Neck
05-29-2013, 10:09 AM
But I would wager to bet many of us would have rather have most of the QBs listed above than Schaub.

So? Many people are self-destructive idiots who make short-sighted decisions, that doesn't make them right about anything.

chenjy9
05-29-2013, 10:54 AM
So? Many people are self-destructive idiots who make short-sighted decisions, that doesn't make them right about anything.

Are you always this salty? Your opinion is as worthwhile as anyone else's.

The Pencil Neck
05-29-2013, 11:12 AM
Are you always this salty? Your opinion is as worthwhile as anyone else's.

Arguing that something is a certain way because there are people who believe that it's a certain way is a common logical fallacy called The Appeal To Widespread Belief. And that was Silvrhand's argument. I was pointing out the fallacy.

As you said, my opinion is not any more worthwhile than anyone else's. But that goes both ways. No one else's opinion is any more worthwhile than mine which is what the Appeal To Widespread Belief tries to imply.

Mr teX
05-29-2013, 01:30 PM
100% disagree, history does prove that you need a very GOOD QB to win the superbowl.. look at the last 20 of them, only 2 are not HOF material, and of those two both have stupid record defenses. The 2000 Ravens, and the only team to have 3 defensive touchdowns in a superbowl.

Super Bowl XXVII - Troy Aikman
Super Bowl XXVIII - Troy Aikman
Super Bowl XXIX - Steve Young
Super Bowl XXX - Troy Aikman
Super Bowl XXXI - Brett Favre
Super Bowl XXXII - John Elway
Super Bowl XXXIII - John Elway
Super Bowl XXXIV - Kurt Warner
Super Bowl XXXV - Trent Dilfer
Super Bowl XXXVI - Tom Brady
Super Bowl XXXVII - Brad Johnson
Super Bowl XXXVIII - Tom Brady
Super Bowl XXXIX - Tom Brady
Super Bowl XL - Ben Roethlisberger
Super Bowl XLI - Peyton Manning
Super Bowl XLII - Eli Manning
Super Bowl XLIII - Ben Roethlisberger
Super Bowl XLIV - Drew Brees
Super Bowl XLV - Aaron Rodgers

This whole post is just jokes...

Up until this past year Flacco was considered just a good qb with a big arm.

A few years before that, before he pulled off 1 of the biggest SB upsets in history with 1 of the clutchest drives ever, Eli Manning was a borderline average qb...there was even talk about moving on from him in NY prior to that run they had in 2007.

Before him, Kurt Warner was bagging groceries on the street and all he does is lead 1 of the greatest offenses ever to 2 straight SB's...then goes to the giants, looks completely overmatched and washed up, only to go to the cardinals a year later and nearly lead them to a SB win.

I say all that to say that of these 3 SB winning qb's, Schaub is only less mobile than 1 of them....his arm strength is on par with at least 1 of them....and he's had at least 2 seasons in his career that are on par if not flat out better than all 3 of these guys' best seasons ----save for Warner's 99' season which was just in another stratsophere.

As for all that other unquantifiable criteria you guys are using to judge him like "clutch" factor and "eye" test.........the truth of the matter is that there are so many other things that go into that. it's almost not even worth mentioning.

-You think Kubiak would've trusted a 6th round 1st year starting qb to lead a game winning drive for a FG to win it in SB XXXVI? Nope..we probably sit on the ball & go to OT.

-You think Kevin Walter or Jacoby Jones make that David Tyree catch if Schaub somehow got out of that near sack and luckily tosses it deep in the middle of the field? Nope.

-Do you really believe Kubiak is calling an onside kick coming out of halftime to get his offense an extra offensive possession in SB XLIV? Nope.

- How about the right side of our o-line holding up against SF's front 7 last year? Nope.

This guy is good enough for us to win a SB with if all things are in place around him. & for the life of me, i can't understand why we are bashing him when this is the case for 99% of qb's in the league and we had other more glaring weaknesses that were responsible for what happened to us late in the season.

ObsiWan
05-29-2013, 05:11 PM
This whole post is just jokes...

Up until this past year Flacco was considered just a good qb with a big arm.

A few years before that, before he pulled off 1 of the biggest SB upsets in history with 1 of the clutchest drives ever, Eli Manning was a borderline average qb...there was even talk about moving on from him in NY prior to that run they had in 2007.

Before him, Kurt Warner was bagging groceries on the street and all he does is lead 1 of the greatest offenses ever to 2 straight SB's...then goes to the giants, looks completely overmatched and washed up, only to go to the cardinals a year later and nearly lead them to a SB win.

I say all that to say that of these 3 SB winning qb's, Schaub is only less mobile than 1 of them....his arm strength is on par with at least 1 of them....and he's had at least 2 seasons in his career that are on par if not flat out better than all 3 of these guys' best seasons ----save for Warner's 99' season which was just in another stratsophere.

As for all that other unquantifiable criteria you guys are using to judge him like "clutch" factor and "eye" test.........the truth of the matter is that there are so many other things that go into that. it's almost not even worth mentioning.

-You think Kubiak would've trusted a 6th round 1st year starting qb to lead a game winning drive for a FG to win it in SB XXXVI? Nope..we probably sit on the ball & go to OT.

-You think Kevin Walter or Jacoby Jones make that David Tyree catch if Schaub somehow got out of that near sack and luckily tosses it deep in the middle of the field? Nope.

-Do you really believe Kubiak is calling an onside kick coming out of halftime to get his offense an extra offensive possession in SB XLIV? Nope.

- How about the right side of our o-line holding up against SF's front 7 last year? Nope.

This guy is good enough for us to win a SB with if all things are in place around him. & for the life of me, i can't understand why we are bashing him when this is the case for 99% of qb's in the league and we had other more glaring weaknesses that were responsible for what happened to us late in the season.

Repped.

And I wonder why the poster you quoted left stopped at SB XLV..?

chenjy9
05-29-2013, 05:55 PM
Instead of merely hoping that all of the stars to perfectly align to carry our overpaid QB to victory, I would much rather our FO start looking for his replacement NOW and throw Schaub's behind on the curb ASAP. I never advocated for that replacement to be either Yates or Keenum, though I do believe from what I have seen last year that Yates will not be a suitable replacement. Either way, neither Yates or Keenum changes how I feel about Schaub and my personal opinion is that we should be looking for better now because Schaub is not going to lead us anywhere and I am not too confident in our chances of winning WHILE carrying Schaub with Kubes at the wheel.

The Pencil Neck
05-29-2013, 11:04 PM
Instead of merely hoping that all of the stars to perfectly align to carry our overpaid QB to victory, I would much rather our FO start looking for his replacement NOW and throw Schaub's behind on the curb ASAP. I never advocated for that replacement to be either Yates or Keenum, though I do believe from what I have seen last year that Yates will not be a suitable replacement. Either way, neither Yates or Keenum changes how I feel about Schaub and my personal opinion is that we should be looking for better now because Schaub is not going to lead us anywhere and I am not too confident in our chances of winning WHILE carrying Schaub with Kubes at the wheel.

I'm glad you cleared that up.

silvrhand
05-30-2013, 08:15 AM
Arguing that something is a certain way because there are people who believe that it's a certain way is a common logical fallacy called The Appeal To Widespread Belief. And that was Silvrhand's argument. I was pointing out the fallacy.

As you said, my opinion is not any more worthwhile than anyone else's. But that goes both ways. No one else's opinion is any more worthwhile than mine which is what the Appeal To Widespread Belief tries to imply.

Look there is no doubt I don't think Schaub is the guy to take us to the superbowl, could he possibly do it, yes there always is that. I would rather have 10-15 of the other QB's in the league than I would Schaub, and to me he needs some competition, real competition not a FA that didn't make the draft, not a 6th round pick.. a real QB prospect and light some fire under his ass.

infantrycak
05-30-2013, 08:23 AM
Look there is no doubt I don't think Schaub is the guy to take us to the superbowl, could he possibly do it, yes there always is that. I would rather have 10-15 of the other QB's in the league than I would Schaub, and to me he needs some competition, real competition not a FA that didn't make the draft, not a 6th round pick.. a real QB prospect and light some fire under his ass.

People say this kind of thing all the time. OK, now fill in the blanks. Where would that have come from this off-season?

PHILLYTEXANFAN
05-30-2013, 08:24 AM
I'm thinking we're going to win it all this year & Schaub will be considered elite.

Nah, he'll win the super bowl than get Dilfer'd

kingtexan
05-30-2013, 08:34 AM
Nah, he'll win the super bowl than get Dilfer'd

If he stays healthy long enough to get to the game.

kingtexan
05-30-2013, 08:35 AM
So? Many people are self-destructive idiots who make short-sighted decisions, that doesn't make them right about anything.

No clue how that comment had anything to do with anything. I just have this vision in my head right now of Pee Wee Herman saying "I know you are but what am I?". :mariopalm:

kingtexan
05-30-2013, 08:37 AM
(frankly Aikman is what I think Kubiak wants out of Schaub).

No way Gary can be that naive. Matt doesn't have the same skill set at all.

infantrycak
05-30-2013, 09:01 AM
No way Gary can be that naive. Matt doesn't have the same skill set at all.

Your hatred of Schaub renders any conversation with you on the subject useless.

Rey
05-30-2013, 09:09 AM
Any criticism you make of Schaub will be "debunked" by Schaubites.

He doesn't have scramble ability...well neither do Quaterback A or B and actually Quaterback Z does have scramble ability and he sucks...

He has a weak arm....Well according to the stats he completes a high percentage of passes over n yards...

He's not good in pressure situations...Well actually back in 200? he did this in this moment....

He's not an elite QB.....Well he may not be thought of as elite because he doesn't have a SB, but if you look at the numbers he does A, B & C just as good as this elite guy and he actually does D, C & E better than this elite guy...


Well I'll be damned. The guy doesn't seem to have many weaknesses at all. That's kind of strange considering the moments of greatness and pure awesomeness have not greatly overshadowed the moments where he's left holding his head in his hands because of some screw up or injury situation he's been involved in.

Schaub is a C- to B+ QB. That's not terrible. But he's not above reproach. He has his share of faults that could potentially hurt the team in important moments. At best Schaub is a distributor making the smart plays and feeding talented guys around him. At worst he's a guy that is trying to make plays. The guy is insulated by an offense that is QB friendly and lends itself to high percentage pass plays. Just about every QB that has played in this offense has looked better in it than most thought they would or better than they had played at any other stop.

Schaub doesn't suck. But he does have moments where he absolutely blows. He's not great, but he's had some great moments. But just from my perspective, he's sucked more than he's been great. And he's been average or good more than both.

kingtexan
05-30-2013, 09:31 AM
Your hatred of Schaub renders any conversation with you on the subject useless.

Don't hate anyone. Matt simply doesn't demonstrate the arm-strength or accuracy that Troy did. I also think Troy made better decisions with the ball.

Mr teX
05-30-2013, 09:37 AM
Instead of merely hoping that all of the stars to perfectly align to carry our overpaid QB to victory, I would much rather our FO start looking for his replacement NOW and throw Schaub's behind on the curb ASAP. I never advocated for that replacement to be either Yates or Keenum, though I do believe from what I have seen last year that Yates will not be a suitable replacement. Either way, neither Yates or Keenum changes how I feel about Schaub and my personal opinion is that we should be looking for better now because Schaub is not going to lead us anywhere and I am not too confident in our chances of winning WHILE carrying Schaub with Kubes at the wheel.

I really question if some of you guys watched football before The texans...or at least before they got good....


The Tuck rule play.....
The Patriots upsetting the greatest show on turf in 2001......
The Santonio Holmes tip toe TD catch to win it....
The Eli Manning sack escape leading to the Tyree catch....
The Giants upsetting the Pats in 2007.....
The Mario Manningham sideline catch....
Hell, any number of plays Jacoby Jones made in the NFC championship game and the SB this past year....especially when you consider his career to date and what happened with him in the playoff game we had against the Ravens just 1 year ago.

Those sound like "stars aligning" type of plays to you?

Any professional athlete who has won a championship will tell you that you need a little luck to win one. Why should we be expected to be any different? Why can't the percentages be the same for us to have the "stars align" and we win a SB with Schaub at the helm? Why is it a difinitive "Schaub can't or won't lead us to a Superbowl?" You guys act as if David Carr is still our qb and if we just had a better qb, we'd be a lock to win one....just completely ignoring all of the other things that could possibly have something to do with holding this team back.

& while i don't understand the logic, what i can tell you is i know of at least 2-3 qb's that are considered to be waaayyyy better than Schaub who didn't win the SB last year or the year prior and at least 5-6 more qb's that most consider better than him based on physical tools who haven't won a SB at all. I wonder why that is....:thinking:

Aside from that, we had a HOFer with a rocket arm playing qb in Houston for us for like 10 years..He even had a bad ass defense backing him for a good while.....what exactly did he lead us to?

Rey
05-30-2013, 09:46 AM
The Tuck rule play.....
The Patriots upsetting the greatest show on turf in 2001......
The Santonio Holmes tip toe TD catch to win it....
The Eli Manning sack escape leading to the Tyree catch....
The Giants upsetting the Pats in 2007.....
The Mario Manningham sideline catch....
Hell, any number of plays Jacoby Jones made in the NFC championship game and the SB this past year....especially when you consider his career to date and what happened with him in the playoff game we had against the Ravens just 1 year ago.

Those sound like "stars aligning" type of plays to you?

Any professional athlete who has won a championship will tell you that you need a little luck to win one.

Only one of those things you named had something to do with plays not being made on the field and that was the tuck rule.

Other than that, those are big moments/plays being made when it mattered most.


Getting lucky is overrated. I'd rather be good than Lucky, because bad teams and mediocre teams making making mediocre plays and playing mediocre football aren't lucking their way into Championships. Normally the two teams in the Superbowl earned their right there by making plays. Not by getting lucky.

Mr teX
05-30-2013, 09:47 AM
Any criticism you make of Schaub will be "debunked" by Schaubites.

He doesn't have scramble ability...well neither do Quaterback A or B and actually Quaterback Z does have scramble ability and he sucks...

He has a weak arm....Well according to the stats he completes a high percentage of passes over n yards...

He's not good in pressure situations...Well actually back in 200? he did this in this moment....

He's not an elite QB.....Well he may not be thought of as elite because he doesn't have a SB, but if you look at the numbers he does A, B & C just as good as this elite guy and he actually does D, C & E better than this elite guy...


Well I'll be damned. The guy doesn't seem to have many weaknesses at all. That's kind of strange considering the moments of greatness and pure awesomeness have not greatly overshadowed the moments where he's left holding his head in his hands because of some screw up or injury situation he's been involved in.

Schaub is a C- to B+ QB. That's not terrible. But he's not above reproach. He has his share of faults that could potentially hurt the team in important moments. At best Schaub is a distributor making the smart plays and feeding talented guys around him. At worst he's a guy that is trying to make plays. The guy is insulated by an offense that is QB friendly and lends itself to high percentage pass plays. Just about every QB that has played in this offense has looked better in it than most thought they would or better than they had played at any other stop.

Schaub doesn't suck. But he does have moments where he absolutely blows. He's not great, but he's had some great moments. But just from my perspective, he's sucked more than he's been great. And he's been average or good more than both.


Now see i can get with this...& for the most part I agree. the only thing i'll take issue with is the offense thing....quite frankly we don't know what Schaub would look like in another offense b/c he's really never got the opportunity to play extended time in another offense and with a better coach. I surmise that if Belichick could make Matt Cassel look like a competent starting qb in the NFL for a season, he could have Schaub looking like a HOFer...

Mr teX
05-30-2013, 10:19 AM
Only one of those things you named had something to do with plays not being made on the field and that was the tuck rule.

Other than that, those are big moments/plays being made when it mattered most.


Getting lucky is overrated. I'd rather be good than Lucky, because bad teams and mediocre teams making making mediocre plays and playing mediocre football aren't lucking their way into Championships. Normally the two teams in the Superbowl earned their right there by making plays. Not by getting lucky.


Being good only gets you to the playoffs...getting lucky many times is what separates a SB/championship appearance from going home. ultimately it doesn't matter what you'd rather be...it's what happens & you benefit from or lose out on when you meet up with teams that are just as good as you in the playoffs.

& lol....big moments/plays being made when it matters most falls on the entire team....not just 1 guy unless that 1 guy is solely responsible for the gaffe. Manning's escape from that near sack is a liiiiitttttttle less awesome if David Tyree doesn't come down with that ball. Frankly it turns into a downright stupid play/throw if Harrison prys it away for a pick and effectively seals the game for the Pats.

Nevertheless, does a lucky play here and there that wasn't entirely b/c of Eli make him that much better of a qb than Schaub?

How good the giants were didn't have anything to do with SF's Kyle Williams' 2 muffed punts that led to 2 scores for the Giants.

How good the Ravens were didn't have anything to do with Jacoby Jones muffing a punt on the 10yd line......that led to a score that ultimately was the difference in the game.

& you can't tell me that the greatness of Reggie Wayne is what allowed him to recover a fumble in the AFC championship game when he was in the grasp of 3 Patriots. likewise for the fumble recovery for the TD for the colts a few drives before that. These were the same plays that the Colts had been losing out on in previous years against the pats even though the colts were as good.

thunderkyss
05-30-2013, 10:55 AM
Nah, he'll win the super bowl than get Dilfer'd

I was watching NFLN last night & after they had a chat with Watt, they talked about Foster's calf sprain. While yaking about the awesomeness that is Arian Foster, they showed a few highlights of the big guy who is remarkably light on his feet.

One of the highlights was of his fingertip TD catch against the Bears. Watching that highlight, for the first time I saw Schaub escape the pocket & with pressure on his heels, throw that ball, that Foster eventually caught for the score.

Surely my eyes were deceiving me. So, since I didn't have the Bears game on my DVR anymore (one of my kids will pay) I decided to watch a bit of the Ravens game (as I just mentioned yesterday, that was one of the games I thought we dominated as a team). Much to my chagrin, we didn't score on any of our first three possessions, BattleRed or no.

Still, I saw an active Schaub moving deftly in the pocket (the first TD to Walter was a great sidestep by Schaub) & make plays outside the pocket. I also saw a few times he bought his receivers time, then either missed, receiver dropped, or he was bailed out by Andre.

I know people want to blame Schaub's failing health throughout the year, & I know both the Chicago & Ravens games were before the bye. But even after the bye, I saw no drop of in his physical play. He still managed to get outside the pocket, but he was more reluctant to pull the trigger. That doesn't say "residual LisFranc" to me. That says he lost trust in his receiving core.

& if you've kept up with TexansChick's blog, she did a piece which showed the poor catch percentage of our receivers this year compared to previous years. & it's a pretty sharp drop off.

I've said it a hundred times since December & I'll probably say it through December, but I am not a Schaub fan. I was his one of his more consistent critics, he is not the kind of QB I like (other than he wins) & if I was king, he wouldn't be the QB of the Texans (but you'd have seen a season of SageRosenfels starting, so take that with a grain of salt).

But Schaub is much closer to Troy Aikman than he is Trent Dilfer.

chenjy9
05-30-2013, 11:18 AM
I really question if some of you guys watched football before The texans...or at least before they got good....


The Tuck rule play.....
The Patriots upsetting the greatest show on turf in 2001......
The Santonio Holmes tip toe TD catch to win it....
The Eli Manning sack escape leading to the Tyree catch....
The Giants upsetting the Pats in 2007.....
The Mario Manningham sideline catch....
Hell, any number of plays Jacoby Jones made in the NFC championship game and the SB this past year....especially when you consider his career to date and what happened with him in the playoff game we had against the Ravens just 1 year ago.

Those sound like "stars aligning" type of plays to you?

Any professional athlete who has won a championship will tell you that you need a little luck to win one. Why should we be expected to be any different? Why can't the percentages be the same for us to have the "stars align" and we win a SB with Schaub at the helm? Why is it a difinitive "Schaub can't or won't lead us to a Superbowl?" You guys act as if David Carr is still our qb and if we just had a better qb, we'd be a lock to win one....just completely ignoring all of the other things that could possibly have something to do with holding this team back.

& while i don't understand the logic, what i can tell you is i know of at least 2-3 qb's that are considered to be waaayyyy better than Schaub who didn't win the SB last year or the year prior and at least 5-6 more qb's that most consider better than him based on physical tools who haven't won a SB at all. I wonder why that is....:thinking:

Aside from that, we had a HOFer with a rocket arm playing qb in Houston for us for like 10 years..He even had a bad ass defense backing him for a good while.....what exactly did he lead us to?

What are you trying to prove here? Every single one of those teams have on both sides of the SB has a QB that I would rather have instead of Schaub. Brady, Manning, Flacco, Big Ben, and Wagner are all better QB's than Schaub IMO. I already said that there are several things holding our team back, hence my complete lack of confidence that we can go anywhere serious with Schaub under center. We would have to carry him to victory and I don't think we are good enough to do that. Carr was a scrub. We wouldn't even sniff the playoffs if he was under center.

I rather have a great team than be a lucky team. Great teams find sustained success and lucky teams flame out when their luck runs dries.

thunderkyss
05-30-2013, 11:29 AM
Schaub is a C- to B+ QB. That's not terrible. But he's not above reproach. He has his share of faults that could potentially hurt the team in important moments. At best Schaub is a distributor making the smart plays and feeding talented guys around him. At worst he's a guy that is trying to make plays. The guy is insulated by an offense that is QB friendly and lends itself to high percentage pass plays. Just about every QB that has played in this offense has looked better in it than most thought they would or better than they had played at any other stop.

Schaub doesn't suck. But he does have moments where he absolutely blows. He's not great, but he's had some great moments. But just from my perspective, he's sucked more than he's been great. And he's been average or good more than both.


I'd say that's fair. He's got weaknesses, but who don't? The Elite guys have the ability to overcome those weaknesses & to some extent the weaknesses of their team. Schaub, Romo, Rivers, have not shown that they can.

& it sucks, that guys like Kaepernick, RG3, & Russell Wilson are showing that ability in year 1. But if you've watched the game long enough & you watched guys like Romo & Rivers you know doing it year in & year out is another story.

At least Schaub is consistent. You can plan around consistency. You can't plan around whatever it is that Romo does. One year you'll be 11-5, the next you'll be 9-7 on the outside looking in. You'll have 1 play off win in over a decade.

Rivers though much stronger armed than Schaub had a great team built around him & he couldn't get the job done inside their little window. Schaub's window is closing. I understand guys who want to move on. But I don't know if I'd have the gnads to do it. It's hard to find a decent QB in this league.

chenjy9
05-30-2013, 11:36 AM
I'd say that's fair. He's got weaknesses, but who don't? The Elite guys have the ability to overcome those weaknesses & to some extent the weaknesses of their team. Schaub, Romo, Rivers, have not shown that they can.

& it sucks, that guys like Kaepernick, RG3, & Russell Wilson are showing that ability in year 1. But if you've watched the game long enough & you watched guys like Romo & Rivers you know doing it year in & year out is another story.

At least Schaub is consistent. You can plan around consistency. You can't plan around whatever it is that Romo does. One year you'll be 11-5, the next you'll be 9-7 on the outside looking in. You'll have 1 play off win in over a decade.

Rivers though much stronger armed than Schaub had a great team built around him & he couldn't get the job done inside their little window. Schaub's window is closing. I understand guys who want to move on. But I don't know if I'd have the gnads to do it. It's hard to find a decent QB in this league.

Which is why no one is seriously advocating that we replace him with Yates or Keenum now. That said, the FO has to be dumb as hell if they aren't considering looking for his replacement already. I don't know if Yates or Keenum or someone else will be the answer, but Schaub is definitely not an answer IMO.

Some of you are diehard fans of Schaub and that's fine. I look towards both the present and the future for the Texans and I can't honestly see deep postseason success with Schaub under center. It is as simple as that. We all have our own opinions.

thunderkyss
05-30-2013, 11:37 AM
Flacco, Big Ben, and Wagner are all better QB's than Schaub IMO.

I don't agree. I'd through Eli in there as well. I don't believe Eli is a better QB than Schaub. He's got more sack, more gutzpah..... he's a player & he plays to win. But I don't think he is a better QB than Schaub.


& I don't know that Wagner guy.

chenjy9
05-30-2013, 11:49 AM
I don't agree. I'd through Eli in there as well. I don't believe Eli is a better QB than Schaub. He's got more sack, more gutzpah..... he's a player & he plays to win. But I don't think he is a better QB than Schaub.


& I don't know that Wagner guy.

Sorry wasn't paying attention to what auto-correct was putting in for me. Kurt Warner is what I meant to type. I personally think he is better, but again that's just my opinion. I put the following QB's over Schaub with personal confidence:

- Aaron Rogers
- Peyton Manning
- Tom Brady
- Matt Ryan
- Drew Brees
- Big Ben
- Joe Flacco
- Andrew Luck
- RG3
- Cam Newton
- Colin Kaepernick
- Eli Manning

If I was the GM and the opposing team dumb enough to do a direct swap, I would swap Schaub for anyone of those players in a heartbeat. The following players I feel will be much better than Schaub in the next couple of years:

- Matt Stafford
- Russell Wilson
- Andrew Dalton
- Jake Locker

Now again, I am not saying that we have one of those to replace Schaub, but again, we would be fools if we weren't looking already.

Mr teX
05-30-2013, 01:29 PM
What are you trying to prove here? Every single one of those teams have on both sides of the SB has a QB that I would rather have instead of Schaub. Brady, Manning, Flacco, Big Ben, and Wagner are all better QB's than Schaub IMO. I already said that there are several things holding our team back, hence my complete lack of confidence that we can go anywhere serious with Schaub under center. We would have to carry him to victory and I don't think we are good enough to do that. Carr was a scrub. We wouldn't even sniff the playoffs if he was under center.

I rather have a great team than be a lucky team. Great teams find sustained success and lucky teams flame out when their luck runs dries.

The point is that even those qb's need(ed) a little luck & guys around them making plays and great decisions to have a large part of the success they've enjoyed....& that at least in part has something to do with why they are considered better than Schaub and why many would want those guys over him. Some more than others but the same recipe nonetheless. The Texans & Schaub have just gotten to the point where the talent is at a level where you can actually say that. Before 2011.............................:smiliepalm: We had virtually no chance in certain games.

You can't have pro-bowlers and HOFers at every position & as I said to Rey, It doesn't matter what you'd rather be, it's what you are & what breaks are handed to you throughout the course of a game/season. What are you guys exactly saying with that statement anyway?... What, you wouldn't want your team to recover a fumble on a muffed punt if it had nothing to do with your teams skill in causing the fumble? C'mon. In a tight game in the playoffs, luck or no luck you'd be :hurrah: or :pissed: depending on what side of the coin you're on.

The NFL moreso than the NBA/MLB is where luck and circumstance plays more of a role in deciding a game b/c that's just it.......it's only 1 game & you advance if you win....where a scrub can rise up for 1 game (Timmy Smith, Larry Brown anyone?) and play above his head & make a game changing play(s). Where weather can lessen the advantage of 1 team over another enough to where the underdog may have a chance.

The Pencil Neck
05-30-2013, 01:33 PM
No clue how that comment had anything to do with anything. I just have this vision in my head right now of Pee Wee Herman saying "I know you are but what am I?". :mariopalm:

OK. Let me explain it to you.

Arguing that Schaub can't get us to the Super Bowl because a lot of people don't think Schaub can get us to the Super Bowl is kinda dumb.

Groups of people are frequently wrong. If you'd asked a group of people if the Ravens were going to win the Super Bowl after we trashed them last year, I bet very few would have said they were.

There are a lot of other things that you can argue about Schaub. You might not think that Schaub is a play-maker, you might think he's reached the limit of his potential and he's on a downhill slide to obscurity, you might think that he's too athletically limited. That's all fine. Those are opinions and may or may not be factually accurate.

But to argue that Schaub's a bad QB who can't get to the SB because there are a lot of Texans' fans who've lost faith in him is ridiculous.

kingtexan
05-30-2013, 01:37 PM
But to argue that Schaub's a bad QB who can't get to the SB because there are a lot of Texans' fans who've lost faith in him is ridiculous.

Thanks for clarifying. Now that I understand your point, I totally agree with you.

chenjy9
05-30-2013, 02:25 PM
The point is that even those qb's need(ed) a little luck & guys around them making plays and great decisions to have a large part of the success they've enjoyed....& that at least in part has something to do with why they are considered better than Schaub and why many would want those guys over him. Some more than others but the same recipe nonetheless. The Texans & Schaub have just gotten to the point where the talent is at a level where you can actually say that. Before 2011.............................:smiliepalm: We had virtually no chance in certain games.

You can't have pro-bowlers and HOFers at every position & as I said to Rey, It doesn't matter what you'd rather be, it's what you are & what breaks are handed to you throughout the course of a game/season. What are you guys exactly saying with that statement anyway?... What, you wouldn't want your team to recover a fumble on a muffed punt if it had nothing to do with your teams skill in causing the fumble? C'mon. In a tight game in the playoffs, luck or no luck you'd be :hurrah: or :pissed: depending on what side of the coin you're on.

The NFL moreso than the NBA/MLB is where luck and circumstance plays more of a role in deciding a game b/c that's just it.......it's only 1 game & you advance if you win....where a scrub can rise up for 1 game (Timmy Smith, Larry Brown anyone?) and play above his head & make a game changing play(s). Where weather can lessen the advantage of 1 team over another enough to where the underdog may have a chance.

Again... your argument fails to make a clear point to me. All great teams still need a bit of luck to win a SB. With Schaub under center, I feel like we would need an incredible amount of luck to win the SB, hence "all the stars align" mentality. I am not asking for a HoF at QB or every position. Where the heck did you even pull that out from? What I want is simple; for us to replace Schaub ASAP because he will not help us get anywhere. If we DO get anywhere, it will be in spite of him. At this point, I would even take Romo over Schaub and I hate Romo.

The Pencil Neck
05-30-2013, 02:49 PM
Again... your argument fails to make a clear point to me. All great teams still need a bit of luck to win a SB. With Schaub under center, I feel like we would need an incredible amount of luck to win the SB, hence "all the stars align" mentality. I am not asking for a HoF at QB or every position. Where the heck did you even pull that out from? What I want is simple; for us to replace Schaub ASAP because he will not help us get anywhere. If we DO get anywhere, it will be in spite of him. At this point, I would even take Romo over Schaub and I hate Romo.

It all comes back around to "you feel" and "you want." You can want and hate all you want but doesn't matter, you're not going to get it this year.

I've been saying for a while, if we're going to draft our replacement for Schaub, it's probably going to be this next draft and then you can expect Kubiak to groom Schaub's replacement for at least a year, possibly two. Expecting a change to be made at QB right now is silly; if it was going to happen, it would have already happened. You can expect at least 2 more years of Schaub as your QB barring injury.

Kubiak might not even draft Schaub's replacement for a couple more years.

You can whine and ***** all you want but that's the reality of the situation.

So the question becomes, can we win a SB with Schaub? Obviously, you say no. You say no over and over and over in just about every post you make on a level that we've not seen since... was it CKHouston? But then again, you also say we can but we'll need a helluva lot of luck.

MrTex's point is that it doesn't matter if you've got Brady or Manning or Schaub. You have to be very, very lucky to win a SB. Even with the greatest of QBs, you won't get many chances. Brady and Peyton are two of the greatest QBs of all time and they've only been in 2 SBs of the last 6 SBs and haven't won one in 7 years.

Every year is a new year and it's all about putting a team together and getting lucky.

Mr teX
05-30-2013, 02:55 PM
Again... your argument fails to make a clear point to me. All great teams still need a bit of luck to win a SB. With Schaub under center, I feel like we would need an incredible amount of luck to win the SB, hence "all the stars align" mentality. I am not asking for a HoF at QB or every position. Where the heck did you even pull that out from? What I want is simple; for us to replace Schaub ASAP because he will not help us get anywhere. If we DO get anywhere, it will be in spite of him. At this point, I would even take Romo over Schaub and I hate Romo.

How much clearer can i be when i say that Schaub has performed at least as well as many of these qb's throughout the season who've won SB's in the past?

I understand this is your opinion & i respect it but it's an unfounded assertion you're operating from.

If you agree that all great teams/qbs need a bit of luck & the right things around them to win a SB............

& you agree that there are other things that are at least in part responsible for holding this team back................

& Schaub numbers statistically bear out that he is at least on par or better than what some past & recent SB winning qb's have put up.............

How can you contend that we would need substantially more luck than other teams/qbs needed to win a SB and would have to "carry" him?

What's more is how can you automatically assume that us not making it to & winning a SB in the future is waaaaayyyy out of the question as long as he's the starting qb?

chenjy9
05-30-2013, 03:23 PM
How much clearer can i be when i say that Schaub has performed at least as well as many of these qb's throughout the season who've won SB's in the past?

I understand this is your opinion & i respect it but it's an unfounded assertion you're operating from.

If you agree that all great teams/qbs need a bit of luck & the right things around them to win a SB............

& you agree that there are other things that are at least in part responsible for holding this team back................

& Schaub numbers statistically bear out that he is at least on par or better than what some past & recent SB winning qb's have put up.............

How can you contend that we would need substantially more luck than other teams/qbs needed to win a SB and would have to "carry" him?

What's more is how can you automatically assume that us not making it to & winning a SB in the future is waaaaayyyy out of the question as long as he's the starting qb?

There is a difference between a little luck and a ton of luck. We need a ton of luck to win with Schaub as our QB. There is also a difference between a team having to carry their QB to victory in big games and teams whose QB consistently and reliably contributes to victory. That is my assertion. Top flight and very good QB's have consistently shown when their teams need them, the ability to rise to or above the challenge. I don't see that in Schaub... at all. When we are down, I am not looking at Schaub to possibly bail us out. I look towards are D first, then Foster, and then AJ. I just pray to god that Schaub does not screw things up.

QB's can have good stat lines and still not be considered as good as some of their peers. My "feeling" and opinions come from these observations:

- Schaub is incredibly immobile and leaves a lot of dead plays on the field, must like Alex Smith
- On 3rd and long situations, I consistently see him check down to someone well short of the first down line or instantly throw it away
- When pressure mounts, he folds. If we are not up and doing our usual ground and pound business and needing Schaub to bring us back, I have no confidence in his ability to do so

Again... since some have trouble reading... I am not saying we need to replace him with one of our backups here and now at this specific moment. However, I am saying that if we don't look for a replacement (backups, drafts, free agency) already, either Kubes or the FO are being idiots about Schaub. He will never be more than what he is and that is not going to help us go anywhere serious.

chenjy9
05-30-2013, 03:36 PM
Also, if you want to talk about stats... how many passing TD's did Schaub have to end the last quarter of the season? How many TD's did Schaub average against GOOD teams and no I am not counting the Broncos early on when Manning was still shaking off rust. The point is, our team has finally gotten to the point where we can consistently beat the teams we need to beat, but we are still losing to good teams. The game against Lions should have been a L if it weren't for the incompetence of the Lions coach. Game against the Jets, while we won, I was sorely disappointed Schaub. If it weren't for Foster essentially being our entire offense until Schaub is able to get the ball to AJ or OD, you guys would probably want Schaub unemployed as well. When the bright lights shine, Schaub fades.

Lucky
05-30-2013, 03:52 PM
How many TD's did Schaub average against GOOD teams and no I am not counting the Broncos early on when Manning was still shaking off rust.
What does Manning's rustiness have to do with Schaub throwing TD passes? Does Peyton also play some DB for the Broncos?

infantrycak
05-30-2013, 04:01 PM
Also, if you want to talk about stats... how many passing TD's did Schaub have to end the last quarter of the season? How many TD's did Schaub average against GOOD teams and no I am not counting the Broncos early on when Manning was still shaking off rust.

LOL - yeah there is some objectivity - "I'm not going to count the 4 TD's which came against a 13-3 team."

Mr teX
05-30-2013, 04:22 PM
Also, if you want to talk about stats... how many passing TD's did Schaub have to end the last quarter of the season? How many TD's did Schaub average against GOOD teams and no I am not counting the Broncos early on when Manning was still shaking off rust. The point is, our team has finally gotten to the point where we can consistently beat the teams we need to beat, but we are still losing to good teams. The game against Lions should have been a L if it weren't for the incompetence of the Lions coach. Game against the Jets, while we won, I was sorely disappointed Schaub. If it weren't for Foster essentially being our entire offense until Schaub is able to get the ball to AJ or OD, you guys would probably want Schaub unemployed as well. When the bright lights shine, the texans fades.

fixed for you above.

that's also alot of qualifiers you put in there...specifically aimed at casting Schaub in the worst light possible..But since you look to our defense 1st to win games for us.... I'll play along.

How many sacks, TFL's did our great defense register last year minus JJ Watt?

How about how many ppg did our awesome defense give up against offenses that were in the top 5 in the league....... and how many of those games did we win?

better yet, how many PPG did our great defense manage to hold teams who made the playoffs to in the last quarter of the season and what was our record in those games?

You simply don't have a leg to stand on no matter how hard you try to spin this.

Schaub's definitely not elite, but he's certainly better than what you guys give him credit for.

chenjy9
05-30-2013, 04:54 PM
LOL - yeah there is some objectivity - "I'm not going to count the 4 TD's which came against a 13-3 team."

What does Manning's rustiness have to do with Schaub throwing TD passes? Does Peyton also play some DB for the Broncos?

If Manning was in later season form, we would have very well lost that game. A rusty Manning almost led a comeback against us.

fixed for you above.

that's also alot of qualifiers you put in there...specifically aimed at casting Schaub in the worst light possible..But since you look to our defense 1st to win games for us.... I'll play along.

How many sacks, TFL's did our great defense register last year minus JJ Watt?

How about how many ppg did our awesome defense give up against offenses that were in the top 5 in the league....... and how many of those games did we win?

better yet, how many PPG did our great defense manage to hold teams who made the playoffs to in the last quarter of the season and what was our record in those games?

You simply don't have a leg to stand on no matter how hard you try to spin this.

Schaub's definitely not elite, but he's certainly better than what you guys give him credit for.

I never said our D was almighty. What I said and I repeat, if we DO win a SB, it will be because our D, or Foster, or Johnson carrying us... NOT Schaub. I am done with this thread though. I respect you guys opinions and you have definitely offered great arguments. I just don't feel that we will ever agree about Schaub. You guys think Schaub is good enough to help us win a SB. I don't share the same opinion and confidence. I will leave it at that and stop wasting everyone's time.

Double Barrel
05-30-2013, 05:03 PM
If Manning was in later season form, we would have very well lost that game. A rusty Manning almost led a comeback against us.


Oh, we're playing the "if game" now?

Okay, IF Brian Cushing were healthy all season we would have won the Super Bowl!!

This is fun! Your turn!

thunderkyss
05-30-2013, 05:07 PM
Every year is a new year and it's all about putting a team together and getting lucky.

To illustrate......

http://25.media.tumblr.com/2bac59fd1d96a0df415fe0f77f395304/tumblr_mkcc6hBaxd1qkj9tto1_500.jpg

drs23
05-30-2013, 06:40 PM
OK. Let me explain it to you.

Arguing that Schaub can't get us to the Super Bowl because a lot of people don't think Schaub can get us to the Super Bowl is kinda dumb.

Groups of people are frequently wrong. If you'd asked a group of people if the Ravens were going to win the Super Bowl after we trashed them last year, I bet very few would have said they were.

There are a lot of other things that you can argue about Schaub. You might not think that Schaub is a play-maker, you might think he's reached the limit of his potential and he's on a downhill slide to obscurity, you might think that he's too athletically limited. That's all fine. Those are opinions and may or may not be factually accurate.

But to argue that Schaub's a bad QB who can't get to the SB because there are a lot of Texans' fans who've lost faith in him is ridiculous.

:goodpost: And factually spot on. As usual.

Lucky
05-30-2013, 06:46 PM
If Manning was in later season form, we would have very well lost that game. A rusty Manning almost led a comeback against us.
And if he did, what does that have to do with Schaub's performance against the Broncos defense?

BTW, that's rhetorical. I know the answer, which is nothing.

drs23
05-31-2013, 10:13 AM
...Top flight and very good QB's have consistently shown when their teams need them, the ability to rise to or above the challenge. I don't see that in Schaub... at all. When we are down, I am not looking at Schaub to possibly bail us out. I look towards are D first, then Foster, and then AJ. I just pray to god that Schaub does not screw things up.

- Schaub is incredibly immobile and leaves a lot of dead plays on the field, must like Alex Smith

1st bolded: The D seemed to fall apart at the most inopportune times last season as well after game 5. Arian is a good bet at times but not on 3rd and long unless he's coming out of the backfield for a catch and run. And yes, AJ is AJ. If we can only trust AJ and Foster who's getting them the ball? I haven't seen a halfback pass since...well, we all know when. My point is there's a disconnect in this train of thought. If either of these guys are going to get us that 1st then the ball is coming from #8. He's shown the ability to do it many, many times in the past.

I'm not going to try to defend his play of late last season. I think we all agree he played poorly down the stretch. But to be as down on him as you are is discounting tremendously what he's done in the past and I hope he can reach back and be that QB again. Whether he does or not remains to be seen but as has been pointed out time and again, it's a moot point, he's our QB for the next couple of years.

To the second bolded: Is that the same Alex Smith that had a 97 passer rating when he got concussed and lost his job?

I, like everyone else hope Matt gets his MoJo back and plays as well as he has in the past but I can't bring myself to go all doom and gloom. By all reports he's looking pretty dadgum sharp in OTAs. I know it's just practice in shorts but it's better than hearing reports that would reflect him playing as poorly as you seem to think that that's all he's capable of.

We'll see...

drs23
05-31-2013, 10:22 AM
To illustrate......

http://25.media.tumblr.com/2bac59fd1d96a0df415fe0f77f395304/tumblr_mkcc6hBaxd1qkj9tto1_500.jpg

Is that "Andrew" Luck there in the middle. Looks like he has a canoe.:user: